Author Topic: A reasonable viewpoint  (Read 3083 times)

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Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: A reasonable viewpoint
« Reply #45 on: December 14, 2021, 09:58:50 PM »
Leads? Two men were seen on a balcony wearing shorts. Two men in shorts were known to be on a balcony that afternoon, and they were wearing shorts;




I don’t understand your point.
I no longer read nor reply to posts made by those posters I perceive to be WUMS and TROLLS so if you think I'm ignoring you this may be the reason.  Best wishes.

Offline Brietta

Re: A reasonable viewpoint
« Reply #46 on: December 14, 2021, 11:30:05 PM »
Operation Grange did seem to be tackling every rumour in sight. I think originally the men seen on a balcony desctibed as blond. German looking/speaking was added later imo.

But as Len Port has pointed out quite often things appear to be going round 💫 to be starting at the very beginning and so on and so on.


News of the investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann seems to be going round in circles. ‘Revelations’ turn out to be old stories recycled. ‘Key suspects’ come and go and are then brought back again. ‘New leads’ seem to be leading nowhere.  Len Port

Only that wasn't quite what was actually happening was it!

Len's opinion on events as they were actually happening was as ill informed as yours.

The investigation was all bubbling away quietly under the surface with investigators who were actually doing what they were paid to do - which is investigating.
There was a lot of dross to be checked out before the Met could get their teeth into the nitty gritty of what actually happened in Madeleine's case.

Remember the Ocean Club employee questioned as an arguido ~ looks like the Met weren't a hundred miles off base as far as that notion was concerned ~ it only took until 2020 for 'catch-up' with the arguido burglar team idea to be achieved.


PJ and German police identify an employee who told Brueckner that English couples left valuable goods in their homes.

Christian Brueckner's mobile phone number has been in the process since 2007. It is one of the devices that were triggered in the vicinity of the village where Maddie disappeared, but it was only after Brueckner told a German friend that he knew what had happened to the English girl that the Judiciary police were able to make the contact call.

https://www.cmjornal.pt/portugal/detalhe/empregado-do-ocean-club-denunciava-habitos-dos-mccann-a-suspeito-do-rapto-de-maddie


"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline Brietta

Re: A reasonable viewpoint
« Reply #47 on: December 15, 2021, 12:50:48 AM »
For information re the two German speakers ~

Maddie detectives hunting two 'German-speaking men': E-fit of suspects revealed this week as McCanns pray Crimewatch reconstruction results in a breakthrough
  • Scotland Yard were aware of the two men when Maddie went missing in 2007
  • They were dismissed but the investigation team now want to find them
  • E-fits of the suspects will be broadcast on Crimewatch on Monday at 9pm
  • Similar appeals will be made on Dutch and German television next week
  • Kate and Gerry McCann will fly to Munich to make live appeal on Wednesday
By ABUL TAHER and NICK CRAVEN FOR THE MAIL ON SUNDAY

PUBLISHED: 22:11, 12 October 2013

British detectives hunting for missing Madeleine McCann are looking for two German-speaking men whose computer-generated images will be broadcast on special TV appeals this week.

Scotland Yard says the un-identified men were seen in the Portuguese resort of Praia da Luz at the time when Madeleine, then aged three, went missing on May 3, 2007.

Witnesses told Portuguese police who originally investigated the case that they saw two German-speaking men at the resort that day, but little or no importance was placed on them at the time.

Now British detectives are keen to trace the two individuals to establish if they are connected to Madeleine’s disappearance or to eliminate them from the investigation, a Scotland Yard spokesman said.

The E-Fit (Electronic Facial Identification Technique) images of individuals based on eyewitness reports will be broadcast on Crimewatch on BBC1 at 9pm.

Similar appeals will be made on Dutch programme Opsporing Verzocht (Investigation Required) on Tuesday night, and on the German version of Crimewatch, Aktenzeichen XY . . .  Ungelost (Case Files XY . . . Unsolved) on Wednesday night, as Madeleine’s parents make an international appeal for information. 

Kate and Gerry McCann, both 45, will fly to Munich on Wednesday to make a live appeal from the  studios of Aktenzeichen, which is watched by five million viewers.

A spokesman for the German programme said: ‘The reviewing and analysis of all available information has led to new insights and leads that, for the first time, point to Germany.

Aktenzeichen shows the photofits of two men, who apparently spoke German, and to whom little or no importance was previously attached.’

The McCanns previously visited Germany in 2007 to make an appeal because a high number of German tourists were in the Algarve region when Madeleine went missing.

The latest mugshots will also be shown on Dutch TV as the two ‘German speakers’ may have been talking Dutch, as the two languages are often confused, said a police source in the Netherlands.

Tomorrow’s Crimewatch programme will feature a dramatic reconstruction of the moment Madeleine went missing, giving the most detailed sequence of events ever made public that led to her disappearance from the holiday apartment where she was sleeping.

The reconstruction – which includes Mr McCann’s 6pm tennis lesson when Madeleine acted as ballgirl – will be accompanied by a moving interview by presenter Kirsty Young with Kate and Gerry McCann.

They talk about how much they miss Madeleine, who would be ten today. They will make a live appeal for members of the public to come forward with information.

In a statement, the McCanns said: ‘We are greatly encouraged by new information coming to light, with the pieces of the jigsaw now fitting together.

‘We are really hopeful that the appeal on Crimewatch will bring further evidence which will take us a step closer to finding Madeleine.’

The Met refused to comment on whether the two men they were looking for were German-speakers, but a family friend said that detectives were on the ‘brink of a breakthrough’.

The Met officer leading the investigation, Detective Inspector Andy Redwood, will make a live appeal for information on the programme.

Since Scotland Yard began reviewing the case in 2011, detectives have interviewed 442 people in 30 different countries and have drawn up a list of 41 potential suspects.

Officers are pursuing 4,920 lines of inquiry, of which 2,123 had been ‘completed’.’

Detectives now believe that their ‘timeline’ holds the key to discovering what happened to Madeleine. Det Insp Redwood said: ‘Our work has significantly changed the accepted version of events and it has allowed us to highlight very specific appeal points.

‘I hope that when the public see our investigative strands drawn together, it will bring in new information that moves our investigation forward.’

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2456751/Madeleine-McCann-detectives-hunting-German-speaking-men.html
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline barrier

Re: A reasonable viewpoint
« Reply #48 on: December 15, 2021, 06:00:34 AM »
The two Germans in 2013 turned into 3 locals in 2014, obviously the German lead led nowhere.


E unum pluribus


Offline G-Unit

Re: A reasonable viewpoint
« Reply #49 on: December 15, 2021, 08:48:58 AM »
For information re the two German speakers ~

snip/

"The Met refused to comment on whether the two men they were looking for were German-speakers"

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2456751/Madeleine-McCann-detectives-hunting-German-speaking-men.html

I think 'German speaking' was not what the witnesses said. Unless the men were shouting they wouldn't have heard them from the path anyway.
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Offline Brietta

Re: A reasonable viewpoint
« Reply #50 on: December 15, 2021, 11:11:47 AM »
I think 'German speaking' was not what the witnesses said. Unless the men were shouting they wouldn't have heard them from the path anyway.

You really, really do not have a clue.

Neither sister claims to have heard these two men talking.  It was their demeanour which attracted their attention.

Although the two sisters contacted Portuguese police within hours of Madeleine's disappearance, their evidence was ignored for six months.

The women met police three times within 24 hours, tried to find out who the strangers were themselves and made several follow-up phone calls to the authorities.

But it was not until six weeks ago that a formal statement was finally taken.

The two women, both divorcees from Maidstone, Kent, spent 11 hours with British police officers providing details of their evidence and later met private detectives from Metodo 3, the agency employed by the McCanns to find their daughter.

They intended to remain anonymous but when their names were leaked to a Portuguese newspaper and they found themselves wrongly accused of waiting eight months before coming forward, they decided to reveal the truth.

The sisters said they were immediately struck by the behaviour of the two men on the balcony.


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-504950/British-witnesses-We-saw-blond-men-balcony-Madeleine-apartment.html


Quite obviously the referral to German or Dutch speakers in the later report emanates from a witness who actually heard these two men in conversation.
The sisters SAW them.

"It makes you wonder if there are more of us out there who have tried and not succeeded in reporting things they saw but have given up.

"They might not have been as persistent and tenacious as us but we were determined to get the information to the police somehow."
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline Brietta

Re: A reasonable viewpoint
« Reply #51 on: December 15, 2021, 11:31:18 AM »
I think it is a reasonable viewpoint that the advent of Scotland Yard into the investigation might very well have been the turning point which led the investigation in the right direction.

Whether acting on information received or a shot in the dark - it hit Bullseye!


Behind the scenes a tantalising lead began to emerge.

Stranger kidnaps of children are rare. They tend to involve calculating abusers who have thought carefully about how they will do it. People who have a plan and know the area where they will strike.

Detectives reasoned that if Madeleine was kidnapped, the culprit could be German or Dutch - the two other predominant nationalities in the resort, along with British and Portuguese.

In 2013 the German equivalent of BBC TV's Crimewatch launched an appeal asking for any information about two German-speaking men at Praia da Luz.

That TV appeal led to a tip-off to German federal detectives, although it is not clear what it was or whether an individual was named.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52925553

The rest as they say is history.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline G-Unit

Re: A reasonable viewpoint
« Reply #52 on: December 15, 2021, 11:46:01 AM »
You really, really do not have a clue.

You said;

"Quite obviously the referral to German or Dutch speakers in the later report emanates from a witness who actually heard these two men in conversation."

I don't think that's obvious at all. If the Met had such a witness why refuse to confirm the rumour that the men were German speakers?

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Offline Brietta

Re: A reasonable viewpoint
« Reply #53 on: December 15, 2021, 12:12:52 PM »
You said;

"Quite obviously the referral to German or Dutch speakers in the later report emanates from a witness who actually heard these two men in conversation."

I don't think that's obvious at all. If the Met had such a witness why refuse to confirm the rumour that the men were German speakers?

You are like a wee terrier attacking a bone with all your denial and "Ah - but what ifs"

Scotland Yard are way beyond you and their Portuguese counterparts - despite the fact they began their investigation so late after the event.

The Portuguese were there at the beginning - and obviously missed the glaringly obvious - as you persist in doing.
Scotland Yard were playing 'catch up' - but still managed to forge ahead and carry out diligences ignored back during the golden hours of 2007 by the Portuguese.

THE GERMAN SPEAKERS

Meanwhile, police are still hunting two German-speaking men seen about the resort where she went missing six and a half years ago.

It is not yet apparent if the men are linked to the new e-fits of the man police wish to talk to.

Police have described the men as German-speaking but have stopped short of saying they were directly involved in her disappearance, rather just wanting to identify and interview them. Their presence was known to Portuguese detectives who had been investigating the case years ago but was not pursued until now when British police took over the case.

Police also said that while some witnesses described these men as German speakers, others say the could have been speaking Dutch. To non-native speakers, it can be difficult to distinguish the two languages from one another.

This is perhaps one reason why the McCanns are expected to fly to Munich on Wednesday to coincide with the launch of the program on the German version of Crimewatch. The show will also be broadcast on Dutch television.


https://www.news.com.au/world/search-for-missing-madeleine-mccann-to-widen-as-crimewatch-airs-new-information-about-her-disappearance/news-story/1a58b234a134429f8e5d44d72d65695a


It looks very much to me that Scotland Yard have actually coordinated information received from witnesses.  Something which disgracefully just did not happen back in 2007.
Information presented itself to SY which required clarification and they sought that clarification.  It could all have resulted in nothing.  But in this instance I think it has resulted in pushing the investigation from Groundhog 2007 into present day 2021.

Doesn't matter at all if that situation sits comfortably with you ( and I know it doesn't 😭) but that is how it is; as we await the culmination of the BKA research into the Brueckner material - of which there appears to be an awful lot.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline G-Unit

Re: A reasonable viewpoint
« Reply #54 on: December 15, 2021, 12:49:14 PM »
You are like a wee terrier attacking a bone with all your denial and "Ah - but what ifs"

Scotland Yard are way beyond you and their Portuguese counterparts - despite the fact they began their investigation so late after the event.

The Portuguese were there at the beginning - and obviously missed the glaringly obvious - as you persist in doing.
Scotland Yard were playing 'catch up' - but still managed to forge ahead and carry out diligences ignored back during the golden hours of 2007 by the Portuguese.

THE GERMAN SPEAKERS

Meanwhile, police are still hunting two German-speaking men seen about the resort where she went missing six and a half years ago.

It is not yet apparent if the men are linked to the new e-fits of the man police wish to talk to.

Police have described the men as German-speaking but have stopped short of saying they were directly involved in her disappearance, rather just wanting to identify and interview them. Their presence was known to Portuguese detectives who had been investigating the case years ago but was not pursued until now when British police took over the case.

Police also said that while some witnesses described these men as German speakers, others say the could have been speaking Dutch. To non-native speakers, it can be difficult to distinguish the two languages from one another.

This is perhaps one reason why the McCanns are expected to fly to Munich on Wednesday to coincide with the launch of the program on the German version of Crimewatch. The show will also be broadcast on Dutch television.


https://www.news.com.au/world/search-for-missing-madeleine-mccann-to-widen-as-crimewatch-airs-new-information-about-her-disappearance/news-story/1a58b234a134429f8e5d44d72d65695a


It looks very much to me that Scotland Yard have actually coordinated information received from witnesses.  Something which disgracefully just did not happen back in 2007.
Information presented itself to SY which required clarification and they sought that clarification.  It could all have resulted in nothing.  But in this instance I think it has resulted in pushing the investigation from Groundhog 2007 into present day 2021.

Doesn't matter at all if that situation sits comfortably with you ( and I know it doesn't 😭) but that is how it is; as we await the culmination of the BKA research into the Brueckner material - of which there appears to be an awful lot.

Your slavish devotion to newspaper stories becomes somewhat boring after a while. Surely you realise that the truth doesn't lie therein?
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Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: A reasonable viewpoint
« Reply #55 on: December 15, 2021, 01:21:53 PM »
Your slavish devotion to newspaper stories becomes somewhat boring after a while. Surely you realise that the truth doesn't lie therein?
Perhaps you could tell us which bits are untrue then?
I no longer read nor reply to posts made by those posters I perceive to be WUMS and TROLLS so if you think I'm ignoring you this may be the reason.  Best wishes.

Offline jassi

Re: A reasonable viewpoint
« Reply #56 on: December 15, 2021, 01:23:06 PM »
Your slavish devotion to newspaper stories becomes somewhat boring after a while. Surely you realise that the truth doesn't lie therein?


I agree. Unless it's a direct quote from a named individual, then the information should be taken with a pinch of salt.


IMO
I believe everything. And l believe nothing.
I suspect everyone. And l suspect no one.
I gather the facts, examine the clues... and before   you know it, the case is solved!"

Or maybe not -

OG have been pushed out by the Germans who have reserved all the deck chairs for the foreseeable future

Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: A reasonable viewpoint
« Reply #57 on: December 15, 2021, 01:31:08 PM »

I agree. Unless it's a direct quote from a named individual, then the information should be taken with a pinch of salt.


IMO
Isn’t it a bit naive to believe that diect quotes by named individuals are necessarily accurate too?  Anyway, twitter and forums are a far more accurate source of information.  @)(++(*
I no longer read nor reply to posts made by those posters I perceive to be WUMS and TROLLS so if you think I'm ignoring you this may be the reason.  Best wishes.

Offline G-Unit

Re: A reasonable viewpoint
« Reply #58 on: December 15, 2021, 02:23:30 PM »
Perhaps you could tell us which bits are untrue then?

I think you can work out which bits can be relied on. Inventing possible witnesses to support a story is a bit of a desperate move imo.
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Offline Brietta

Re: A reasonable viewpoint
« Reply #59 on: December 15, 2021, 02:47:44 PM »
Your slavish devotion to newspaper stories becomes somewhat boring after a while. Surely you realise that the truth doesn't lie therein?

My goodness gracious me.  What an absolute hoot your post is.

Might I respectfully point out yet another load of hypocrisy here from you - the instigator of this thread - the first words of the opening post of which start with LEN PORT.

The rest of the post - which YOU posted - consists of a newspaper story written by Len.

The imputation of what you have posted above is - in context - another risible example of your double standards.

The really sad thing is - I don't think you are aware of how revealing posts like that are.  A practice of "do as I say ~ not as I do" of which you are quite guilty.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....