Is DR Sandra Lean a credible source?

[faithlilly]

The finger being pointed at the Jones family.

Was Dr Lean blaming the Jones family when she was blaming MK?

Was Dr Lean blaming the Jones family when she was blaming RG?

Where is the consistency from her?

I genuinely think that, if LM admitted guilt to murder and post mortem mutilation, Dr Lean et all would still want LM released because a few polis men raised their voices without a lawyer present.

If Dr Lean is going to continue to point the finger at the Jones family, it's time she said something direct instead of beating around the bush.

And I think if Luke’s was referred back to the Court of Appeal and his conviction was quashed some would still believe him guilty simply because he won a fight against their pal’s son.

[Paranoid Android]

And I think if Luke’s was referred back to the Court of Appeal and his conviction was quashed some would still believe him guilty simply because he won a fight against their pal’s son.

My pal, who's son was attacked by LM, thinks LM should have been found not guilty, as I've told you before.

You won't remember that, of course, because you only register the info that suits your agenda.

Interesting that you don't deny the fact that you'd be happy to get a brutal murderer released on a technicality.

Also interesting that most people on Dr Lean's side seem to have a beef with the police.

 It's not a game - a lassie was brutally murdered,

[faithlilly]

One thought you ( in this role) were not interested in others? That you did not need others to show LM was innocent? However:

It does not change the evidence against LM. It does not change the simple fact that this bike was not up at this V. It does not change the fact of the time these boys were actually on LD and RDP. It does not change every lie that LM told. All it does do, is highlight yet again, that you along with every other variant - are hypocritical to the max. - That they should bleat continuously on about this poor wee boy? Of his treatment brought about by his own hands and mouth. It is not these other males fault that LM is in prison. Whilst speaking ill of every other male. Of these other teenagers. These young males. Who's lives have continuously been put through the wringer by people like you.

This desperation over and over - to sweep away from the massive holes in LM's testimony. He had no alibi. It was concocted. You are not daft either in whatever role here. - That you wish to scrutinize and use logic to tell you about JF's personality change after the murder? Yet not LM's concocted alibi? Going from five past five to 5.45 - and after many changes, after other factors coming to light - it was squeezed into less than 15mins - he was not at home - so where does your amazing logic put him? -  He was not at home.

And what family exactly are you referring to below - that you already know of course. You are fooling no one with this "I wonder". We know who's personality did not change - LM's.

And your tabloid story? - Again this boy needs to be put above all and everyone else. He was being deviant plain and simple. What made him special? That he should choose to continually stick the middle finger up to authority. Point blank refusing to wear the school colours. He deserved to be excluded. Plain and simple. He wanted to return to school, this claimed normality? That this teacher and others had difficult choices. That they had to think of everyone, not just LM. - It was his way or no way. Not private education, no other school. - It had to be exactly how he wanted it and dressed as he liked to boot.

All you are doing is highlighting his character here - This adolescent. 15 at this point. Well mature beyond his years. Treated in the same fashion by his mother. Allowed to have sex at home. Allowed to smoke both dope and fags. Allowed to and bought more knives. Allowed to drink.

So dig away at these boys on the bike - You are only digging yourself into a hole.

Except this is not a tabloid story…this is court testimony, given under oath.

The change of personality mentioned by DF is however interesting as is the witness’s ostracising from the rest of the Jones/Walker family. When families ordinarily come together at a time of great trauma what possibly could have happened for the family to reject one of their own?

You see criminality in every action of the Mitchells, every lapse of memory is picked over by you like a lion picking the remains of a gazelle yet you dismiss arbitrarily the lapses of others. Corrine remembered coming home 10 minutes earlier than she actually did, which you see as strangely sinister yet reject out of hand that there may actually be something nefarious about the actions of a youth who, from his very own mouth put himself at the murder site at around the supposed time of the murder but who, subsequently, lied about the time he was there, failed to keep an appointment that night, changed his appearance and was ostracised by the rest of his family. 

How strange is that?

And again we have to totally discount the statement of an independent witness who saw the moped propped up against the wall at around the supposed time of the murder. A witness who, it could be argued, had no ‘ dog in the fight’. A witness who’s recollection did not change unlike some others. Can you explain to me why that witness should not be believed?

To be clear I am not accusing JF of anything just pointing out that there is clearly enough circumstantial evidence to make a case against him. As much if not more than Luke.

[faithlilly]

My pal, who's son was attacked by LM, thinks LM should have been found not guilty, as I've told you before.

You won't remember that, of course, because you only register the info that suits your agenda.

Interesting that you don't deny the fact that you'd be happy to get a brutal murderer released on a technicality.

Also interesting that most people on Dr Lean's side seem to have a beef with the po-liice - possibly because of previous run-ins with the law.

I sometimes think this is just a game for you - it's not a game - a lassie was brutally murdered,

I do remember but it wasn’t your friend I was talking about. It was you who told us of Luke having to be pulled off of your friend’s son. Perhaps I got it wrong and you weren’t trying to insinuate by the inclusion of that fight that Luke was a violent thug capable of murder? You tell me?

Is it interesting or merely too ridiculous to respond to?

I have several friends who are or were police officers. What I, and they, have a beef with is the destruction of an innocent person’s life because a SIO is either too lazy, too incompetent or to blinkered to do his job properly.

And I’m sure you’ll go on thinking that even though I tell you otherwise so crack on.

[TruthSeeker2003]

I think the word confession is misleading. Self-incriminating would be a better description.

Where is the source for this? I would like to read it.

[faithlilly]

Where is the source for this? I would like to read it.

It’s simply an opinion.

With many of the cases being looked at after the Cadder ruling there was no confession but comments were made that could be considered self-incriminating.

[Paranoid Android]

I do remember but it wasn’t your friend I was talking about. It was you who told us of Luke having to be pulled off of your friend’s son. Perhaps I got it wrong and you weren’t trying to insinuate by the inclusion of that fight that Luke was a violent thug capable of murder? You tell me?

Is it interesting or merely too ridiculous to respond to?

I have several friends who are or were police officers. What I, and they, have a beef with is the destruction of an innocent person’s life because a SIO is either too lazy, too incompetent or to blinkered to do his job properly.

And I’m sure you’ll go on thinking that even though I tell you otherwise so crack on.

So you're admitting that LM was involved in scraps as well as attacking my friend's son. (there's also the cannabis use and the whole knife thing.

It was interesting.

I know many people who have jumped on Lean's bandwagon because they have a beef with the cops - there's also the likes of Johnnie boy Steel and the people who threatened the daily record journo - some classy people in Dr Lean's camp these days.

Crack on.

[TruthSeeker2003]

It’s simply an opinion.

With many of the cases being looked at after the Cadder ruling there was no confession but comments were made that could be considered self-incriminating.

Thanks. Can I read about this anywhere that involves Luke and the admittance of guilt?

[faithlilly]

So you're admitting that LM was involved in scraps as well as attacking my friend's son. (there's also the cannabis use and the whole knife thing.

It was interesting.

I know many people who have jumped on Lean's bandwagon because they have a beef with the cops - there's also the likes of Johnnie boy Steel and the people who threatened the daily record journo - some classy people in Dr Lean's camp these days.

Crack on.

I’d be surprised if any young boy hadn’t been in a scrap or two and with everything context is important and unless your friend was there we simply don’t know the circumstances in which the fight occurred.

Yes there is the whole knife and cannabis thing but if you’re going to tar one youth with that brush best to tar the rest too…JF who sold cannabis to Luke, [Name removed] who smoked it in his mum’s house and also had to be stopped by his mother attacking a visitor with a knife. Shall I go on? BTW why do you think it is that even though he admitted to the police that he sold cannabis to friends JF was never charged? Head-scratcher isn’t it?

No it’s really not.

I’m sure you’re right and perhaps those individuals have had cause not to trust the police and again threatening anyone is to be condemned no matter what the circumstances. Not sure though how Dr Lean can be held responsible for another adult’s actions though, what with free will and all. Logically she’s no more responsible than JuJ was when her son threatened Dr Lean.

[TruthSeeker2003]

Thanks. Can I read about this anywhere that involves Luke and the admittance of guilt?

Can you tell me about this threat to a journo?

[TruthSeeker2003]

supposed to be be at the end of the month

[TruthSeeker2003]

The perpetrator of these threats hasn’t been named and shamed although I suspect many of those within the campaign group will know who she is

Given the involvement of Johnnyboy Steel and the so called ‘ice cream wars’ which culminated in the murders of James Doyle, 53, his daughter Christina Halleron, 25, her 18-month-old son Mark and three of Mr Doyle's sons, James, Andrew (the target of the intimidation), and Tony, aged 23, 18, and 14 respectively - I’m surprised this women wasn’t sent to jail

Morag Ritchie a hanger on the the Johnnyboy and his amigo’s

“ Lorna McGraw I think Johnnyboy’s book is the best book I have ever read. That man is a pure legend. No one should be treated like that, but he lived to tell the tale. I have total respect for Johnnyboy, and his brother Joe.X”

[Paranoid Android]

I’d be surprised if any young boy hadn’t been in a scrap or two and with everything context is important and unless your friend was there we simply don’t know the circumstances in which the fight occurred.

Yes there is the whole knife and cannabis thing but if you’re going to tar one youth with that brush best to tar the rest too…JF who sold cannabis to Luke, [Name removed] who smoked it in his mum’s house and also had to be stopped by his mother attacking a visitor with a knife. Shall I go on? BTW why do you think it is that even though he admitted to the police that he sold cannabis to friends JF was never charged? Head-scratcher isn’t it?

No it’s really not.

I’m sure you’re right and perhaps those individuals have had cause not to trust the police and again threatening anyone is to be condemned no matter what the circumstances. Not sure though how Dr Lean can be held responsible for another adult’s actions though, what with free will and all. Logically she’s no more responsible than JuJ was when her son threatened Dr Lean.

I'm assuming Dr Lean has fed you all this hearsay.

If a certain person who I suspected at the time had been arrested and convicted, it wouldn't have surprised me one bit.

He wasn't, though.

[faithlilly]

I'm assuming Dr Lean has fed you all this hearsay.

If a certain person who I suspected at the time had been arrested and convicted, it wouldn't have surprised me one bit.

He wasn't, though.

You really are a conundrum PA.

You strike me as someone with quite a strong moral compass but fail to condemn categorically threats of violence against anyone as I have. How do we square that?

Dr Lean has, more than anyone, made public information on the case but it would be naive, and lazy, to think that Dr Lean’s judgement isn’t coloured by her closeness to the Mitchell family, of course it is. However it would also be naive, and lazy,  to assume that the police, or the press, were fair and impartial in their treatment of Luke. For me that means cross referencing every piece of information in the public domain to, hopefully, get close to some semblance of the truth.
Please don’t make the lazy assumption that because I think Luke wasn’t  convicted beyond reasonable doubt that I automatically believe Dr Lean....I don’t...I do my research. Isn’t that what everyone should do?

[mrswah]

You really are a conundrum PA.

You strike me as someone with quite a strong moral compass but fail to condemn categorically threats of violence against anyone as I have. How do we square that?

Dr Lean has, more than anyone, made public information on the case but it would be naive, and lazy, to think that Dr Lean’s judgement isn’t coloured by her closeness to the Mitchell family, of course it is. However it would also be naive, and lazy,  to assume that the police, or the press, were fair and impartial in their treatment of Luke. For me that means cross referencing every piece of information in the public domain to, hopefully, get close to some semblance of the truth.
Please don’t make the lazy assumption that because I think Luke wasn’t  convicted beyond reasonable doubt that I automatically believe Dr Lean....I don’t...I do my research. Isn’t that what everyone should do?

I agree, and I do my own research too.