Please be advised that this topic has been given its own thread in the current news board...
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10965.msg550928#msg550928
Unfortunately, Verti seems to have gone off the boil on this one. Pity, as it is throwing up some curious stuff.
Unfortunately, Verti seems to have gone off the boil on this one. Pity, as it is throwing up some curious stuff.What the hell are you on about now?
The poor girl has been found dead.. I see that as tragic... Not curious
As Verti seems to have given up posting links to this case, here is the latest effort from the Beeb.
Body found 2km away by a stream, no clothes, post mortem underway.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-49330000
In what way are those circumstances curious
2km away and no clothes are curious. A post mortem isn't.
Hopefully we'll get an official police statement soon which might address some of the oddities.
added
Only the Daily Mail -
"Medics in Malaysia say the results of a post-mortem exam on tragic teenager Nora Quoirin (left) will be revealed Thursday at the earliest, after eight hours of tests failed to establish how she had died. "
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7356299/Nora-Quoirin-Parents-anguish-cause-death-unknown.html
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-49355188
Cause of death is given as internal bleeding with a perforated ulcer. Foul play is not suspected.
a perforated ulcer is extremely uncommon in a teenager ....afaiaaWe used to get perforated ulcers in young pigs. (in the 1990s) Some were areas of bleeding mainly in the stomach. It was a dietary thing from memory, but it was very serious disease. Could her condition also result in dietary abnormalities?
We used to get perforated ulcers in pigs. Some were areas of bleeding mainly in the stomach. It was a dietary thing from memory, but it was very serious disease. Could her condition also result is dietary abnormalities?
(https://www.pigprogress.net/PageFiles/33728/3000x2000Gastric%20Ulcers%20-%20Index%208.jpg)
That is a very severe ulcer.
https://www.pigprogress.net/Health/Health-Tool/diseases/Gastric-ulcers/#Causes
I know exactly what it is but it seems a very odd cause of death in such a young person..
a perforated ulcer is extremely uncommon in a teenager ....afaiaa
I haven't checked into it in any detail, so these are first thoughts.
The time taken to develop such an ulcer is how long?
Does a person with such an ulcer show little or no signs of ill-health until the latter stages of development?
Could Nora have developed such an ulcer shortly before her holiday, or after her disappearance, meaning it went unnoticed by her parents?
I havent checked it in any detail either....it all sounds very strange to me. ive heard of lots of peole afsting and hunger strikes...never a burst ulcer
The link below explains it well. Forget about the eating disorder diagnosis part. it is related to starving to death -basically how it can happen by starving in a short space of time.
http://www.eatingdisorderexpert.co.uk/stomachproblemsforanorexicsandbulimics.html
Your link is for anorexic and bullimics... No indication of either of those... They are long term conditions and damage is long term... This isn't.. It's short term. Just doesn't seem right... And why are the mentioning stress
Davel, I specifically said to ignore the diagnosis of AN and Bulimia! I am not insunuating this is a reason.
It describes the affects on the stomach of starving and losing weight at speed.
"the effects of malnutrition including a weakening of the stomach muscles, ulcers, and stomach “
and this
"often lose a great amount of weight in a short amount of time, leaving them at least 15% below a weight that would be considered healthy for their age and height. This weight loss leaves them with little body fat, but it can also reduce general muscle mass and tone as well, including a weakening of the stomach muscles and possible damage to the nerves which signal the stomach to digest and pass food. If this occurs there can be delays in how efficiently the stomach empties when food is introduced. This situation is often referred to as delayed stomach emptying or gastroparesis."
It would be very strange indeed if this child was not suffering from stress in its most severe form, I would imagine! Being lost in a jungle- foreign country...
Your link is for anorexic and bullimics... No indication of either of those... They are long term conditions and damage is long term... This isn't.. It's short term. Just doesn't seem right... And why are the mentioning stress
The article you quoted describes damage over a period of time.. Not several days.. They seem to be blaming stress as a contributing factor to the ulcer... Again it doesn't add up.
There will probably be another autopsy to get to the truth
Some reporter or other came up with a line from the Mayo clinic that stress can cause an ulcer to burst.
First, one needs to get an ulcer!
Im not sure if there's a lot of truth in that... But again that would be a longstanding ulcer... The ulcer has to eat through the lining... That takes time not days
Hmmm yeah, we don't have access to her medical records regarding any prescribed drugs which may have caused a stomach ulcer over a period of time. She was a poor wee soul. It is hard to believe she survived in that jungle all that time without being bitten/attacked by animals.
The police have been criticized for using the mums voice to call out to her daughter. I think that was a fantastic idea,especially as she had been exposed to terror in that jungle. Hearing her mums voice if she were alive and wandering,she would have been able to call out for help.
The article you quoted describes damage over a period of time.. Not several days.. They seem to be blaming stress as a contributing factor to the ulcer... Again it doesn't add up.What about a low grade ulcer already present, then starvation making it acutely worse?
There will probably be another autopsy to get to the truth
What about a low grade ulcer already present, then starvation making it acutely worse?
why would a young person her age have a low grade ulcer...it all seems a little far fetched to me and the signs are the family arent happy with the explanation.....why would a young girl go for a walk in the forest at night ....where are her clothes...why was she found naked... we will have to wait and see.You’d have to question the abilities of the tracker dogs too. Bloody useless in this case it would seem.
why would a young person her age have a low grade ulcer...it all seems a little far fetched to me and the signs are the family arent happy with the explanation.....why would a young girl go for a walk in the forest at night ....where are her clothes...why was she found naked... we will have to wait and see.Pigs used to get ulcerations I saw a lot in the 1990's. OK it didn't seem as common in the more recent times, and it was an unknown cause then too. Was this better husbandry?
Pigs used to get ulcerations I saw a lot in the 1990's. OK it didn't seem as common in the more recent times, and it was an unknown cause then too. Was this better husbandry?
The girl had some underlying issue.
"She was described by her family as vulnerable having been born with holoprosencephaly, a disorder which affects brain development." https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-49355188
It doesnt seem right to me...you seem to want to make the police findings fit...they may or may not...but It just doesnt seem right to me.If on autopsy there was massive bleeding from the ulcer her body would have been very pale too. The pigs basically bled to death from their ulcers. I had noticed in pigs a definite correlation between pallor of the carcass and the size of the ulcer. There was never any signs of frank blood in the stomach.
What happened to....when a child disppears it susually the parents who are responsible and should be looked at first.....its what sceptics repeatedly say
You’d have to question the abilities of the tracker dogs too. Bloody useless in this case it would seem.
I am reserving any sort of judgement on this until much later down the line.A week in the jungle and her body would have been scratched and bitten and covered in leeches, especially if she was unclothed.
We are led to believe Nora was found barefooted so will be interesting to know what the pathologist had to say about the soles of her feet.
A week in the jungle and her body would have been scratched and bitten and covered in leeches, especially if she was unclothed.
Especially given her mother claims her medi condition meant her coordination was poor ie the potential for stumbling and falling.are you suggesting the Malaysian police are mistaken
I am reserving any sort of judgement on this until much later down the line.I had just read she was found naked. Did she start off naked? So if not, where are her clothes?
We are led to believe Nora was found barefooted so will be interesting to know what the pathologist had to say about the soles of her feet.
It seems the parents have appointed a spokesman and believe that Nora was abducted whilst the local police say no evidence of abduction
Believing something happened doesn't mean it did. The Malaysian police quite correctly looked for evidence and so far have found none.
Believing something happened doesn't mean it did. The Malaysian police quite correctly looked for evidence and so far have found none.Funny old world isn’t it, where a sceptic who accepts nothing, believes noone and wants confirmation of everything blithely accepts and believes the words of a foreign police force without question.
Believing something happened doesn't mean it did. The Malaysian police quite correctly looked for evidence and so far have found none.
This has similarities to the McCann case. I think it's clear that the parents would like to say more but fear upsetting the Malaysian authoritiesThings could certainly turn nasty for them if they did.
Funny old world isn’t it, where a sceptic who accepts nothing, believes noone and wants confirmation of everything blithely accepts and believes the words of a foreign police force without question.
The fact that you included the word "foreign" in your reply is revealing. Would you believe them if they were British?Unless their is proof then it is still only a belief based on the evidence... The families belief is also based on evidence.
I didn't say I believed them, by the way. I pointed out that the family is relying on belief, but the police rely on evidence. If they can't find any that's it, the case won't progress.
The fact that you included the word "foreign" in your reply is revealing. Would you believe them if they were British?It is revealing because the constant theme we get on these boards from sceptics is that by comparion to British police forces, foreign police forces are beyond reproach simply it seems for being foreign, like any criticism of them can be dismissed as zenophobia (sic). That’s why I deliberately included the word. You obviously trust the Malay police’s reading of the evidence, the Quoirin family apparently do not. Who do you trust? No one surely?!
I didn't say I believed them, by the way. I pointed out that the family is relying on belief, but the police rely on evidence. If they can't find any that's it, the case won't progress.
It is revealing because the constant theme we get on these boards from sceptics is that by comparion to British police forces, foreign police forces are beyond reproach simply it seems for being foreign, like any criticism of them can be dismissed as zenophobia (sic). That’s why I deliberately included the word. You obviously trust the Malay police’s reading of the evidence, the Quoirin family apparently do not. Who do you trust? No one surely?!
Unless their is proof then it is still only a belief based on the evidence... The families belief is also based on evidence.
First thete needs to be a second post mortem as the initial one seems suspect
How so, a report yesterday had a Irish representative at it.
are you suggesting the Malaysian police are mistaken
I don't have enough info to suggest anything. I do not know which country Nora's body will be returned to: England, France or Ireland but I wonder if the family might request a second post-mortem?
I find it hard to believe that your understanding of other's post is really as poor as it seems. I can only assume, therefore that it's a deliberate ploy. No-one to my knowledge has ever indicated that foreign police forces are beyond reproach simply for being foreign.No one has said it but that is how it appears. If I criticize a foreign police force some sceptic will be along in a minute to claim that the British police are at least as bad or far worse and that my criticism is disgracefully xenophobic. It happens with great regularity, perhaps it is you with the comprehension issues.
Indeed I don't trust what people say. I trust facts and so far they are few.
It will be interesting to see what happens
Foreign police saying no foul play and ortopsy showing death by natural causes..
Family claiming abduction... And an open window
I don't see what can happen. They can't force the Malaysian police to believe them.There is plenty that can happen, do you think the matter has been resolved satisfactorily? Surely you have some doubts, some questions, some things you consider odd or strange? The police have not closed the case and there is still a hotline for information in place.
I don't see what can happen. They can't force the Malaysian police to believe them.
would depend on the results of the familys independent ortopsy for one........you need to think outside the box
would depend on the results of the familys independent ortopsy for one........you need to think outside the boxDon't they spell autopsy as ortopsy and not autopsy these days?
Don't they spell autopsy as ortopsy and not autopsy these days?
they do...i looked at it and knew something was wrong...as I said im slightly dyslexic...but so was Einstein so Im in good company
Ah, but he was a genius.
so its an accepted fact that a highly intelligent person can be dyslexic
You seem obsessed with intelligence. I'm just watching someone I find extremely intelligent; Billy Connolly. Intelligence is found in all sorts of people and is lacking in all sorts of people too.How profound.
This has similarities to the McCann case. I think it's clear that the parents would like to say more but fear upsetting the Malaysian authorities
I am more inclined to think they do not want to claim abduction in case they are proved wrong. Nóra has been found and there are certainly many questions to be answered.
I can't imagine her body being bought to the UK she is not a UK citizen.
Thank you Rob for taking this off thread with mindless,banal chat. Perhaps as with forum rules, you will delete appropriatly?
She may well return to Ireland or France. I think there is more to come from this and I find the autopsy result strange
I agree the information is very difficult to make sense of. She may have died of starvation, I accept that, but there are too many other things that do not add up. So sating she only died of starvatin and no other marks is strange indeed. I also find it interesting reports about where her body was found.
I read something very puzzling in the paper today and that is that there is a question mark over exactly where she was found. Couldn’t make head nor tail of the report tbh.
I'll do an ortopsy first.
I am more inclined to think they do not want to claim abduction in case they are proved wrong. Nóra has been found and there are certainly many questions to be answered.
I can't imagine her body being bought to the UK she is not a UK citizen.
Thank you Rob for taking this off thread with mindless,banal chat. Perhaps as with forum rules, you will delete appropriatly?
I'll do an ortopsy first.
I wonder how long that will keep your little brain goingDid you work it out?
its possible to go for a couple of weeks without food
Yes it is, but what about water. According to her parents she didn't have the capacity to feed herself or know how to source water and drink it.
Yes it is, but what about water. According to her parents she didn't have the capacity to feed herself or know how to source water and drink it.
That's where location comes into play.
Reports suggest she was near a stream and a waterfall. If she was, she had access to water. If she wasn't, those reports are highly suspect.
Has Nora's body been repatriated?
I dont think it has. From what I can see the parents are not sure what to do next.
another PM in malaysia or bring her home and another PM in UK. The problem is the admissibility of evidence from a PM in the UK
A diplomatic problem I guess. If a PM is carried out elsewhere and contradicts initial pm where's the evidence that the first pm isn't capable of being challenged?
Is it possible a pathologist from elsewhere could carry out a pm in Malaysia?
a PM will find clinical signs that can be photographed...histology that can be photographed....dna evidence...lots of things taht can be recorded/ It then becomes more than opinion. for instance...what was the state of her feet...were they compatible to 9 days or so walking in the jungle
I dont think it has. From what I can see the parents are not sure what to do next.
another PM in malaysia or bring her home and another PM in UK. The problem is the admissibility of evidence from a PM in the UK
Yes but there's nothing like witnessing the body first hand at pm. At Bamber's trial the Home Office pathologist who carried out the pm's, Dr Vanezis, was called to give evidence. The defence called pathologist Prof Bernard Knight but it was made clear to jurors he was somewhat at a disadvantage as he did not actually witness the bodies. Instead he had to rely on pm images and the reports.
Im talking about a second pathologist doing a second post mortem...photographs of her feet would show their condition...dna evidence...histology...is solid evidence that can be produced at a later date
So where would suggest a second pathologist to perform a second post mortem is drawn from?It's not me it's the parents... They have a right to ask fir a second in Malaysia but I think from what I've read they would prefer a european... French or british
I dont think it has. From what I can see the parents are not sure what to do next.
another PM in malaysia or bring her home and another PM in UK. The problem is the admissibility of evidence from a PM in the UK
I might be wrong but I understood that a post mortem is undertaken as a matter of policy when a British citizen is returned to the UK following a sudden or suspicious death abroad?
I'm not really getting starvation as its possible to go for much longer without food and survive. Staying hydrated is different.
If she drank from a stream she would quite likely get food poisoning... And die from dehydration... That's not what the PM found however
So where did she find drinking water
It seems the police used shaman in a two hour ceremony to ask the spirits for help... But of course we can't criticise another countries police forceWho actually found her?
It seems the police used shaman in a two hour ceremony to ask the spirits for help... But of course we can't criticise another countries police force
We don't know if they got involved with the blessing of the police or not, do we?
why so defensive
Why so accusatory?
im reporting what has been reported
But then when asked for links you just say 'Google it'.
I cant provide links to every article i have read....its easy to google to find information...i also did not claim any fact....just from what I can see
Please just provide one then.I don't see why you cannot Google it yourself
I don't see why you cannot Google it yourself
Maybe I'm getting you mixed up with another but I thought you were keen on providing cites?
I provide lots.. Some don't
Davel are you able to link me to a newspaper article please re your claims?
Davel are you able to link me to a newspaper article please re your claims?
yes but I cant be bothered
This seemed like the crucial decision: "Over the weekend it was revealed the search radius in southern Negeri Sembilan state will be reduced from 12km to 4km, so personnel can concentrate on a more focused area.Even a radius of 4 km covers quite a lot of area and if it is jungle that makes it even harder to search, for how do you keep track of where you've searched.
Read more: https://metro.co.uk/2019/08/12/malaysian-shaman-called-nora-quoirin-search-says-lured-genie-10558586/?ito=cbshare
For those following this case, this site might be of interest -
https://crimerocket2.com/2019/08/27/nora-quoirin-why-the-abduction-theory-makes-no-sense-and-why-its-time-to-talk-about-what-really-happened/
For those following this case, this site might be of interest -What really happened then?
https://crimerocket2.com/2019/08/27/nora-quoirin-why-the-abduction-theory-makes-no-sense-and-why-its-time-to-talk-about-what-really-happened/
What really happened then?
Rather like the McCann case, nobody knows as yet. Just facts, theories and suppositions.That website you linked to seems to claim to know what really happened and invites people to talk about it.
That website you linked to seems to claim to know what really happened and invites people to talk about it.
Their claim, not mine.Sorry, I thought you were recommending it.
Sorry, I thought you were recommending it.I find Nick van der Leek's style of writing awkward to read. I'm surprised he is well read author. Maybe the problem is mine!
I find Nick van der Leek's style of writing awkward to read. I'm surprised he is well read author. Maybe the problem is mine!Is he one of those armchair detective cum self-published author cum [ censored word ]s that proliferate the internet?
So there was a downstairs bedroom. Is that where she slept I wonder. Given Nora's problems I wondered if she was on medication and wondered why her family never mentioned the fact. Gastrointestinal problems are associated with her condition.
https://crimerocket2.com/2019/08/16/the-critical-detail-in-the-nora-quoirin-case-that-everyone-is-missing/
Thank ypou for this Jassi and G.
We were talking about this last week at work:
from a poster @ https://crimerocket2.com/2019/08/16/the-critical-detail-in-the-nora-quoirin-case-that-everyone-is-missing/
"proton pump inhibitors. stops stomach acid production. I’ve taken omeprazole for a low grade ulcer and gastritis. If you need it, it’s not a good idea to stop taking it abruptly. "
Julie W
AUGUST 17, 2019 AT 5:13 PM
Well I think it might explain the internal bleeding referred to in the pm as being caused by hunger and stress. Which sounded a bit odd. If you need these your stomach acid is causing inflammation in your stomach lining or gastro intestinal tract. This risks very bad inflammation or ulcers that can then lead to a GI bleed which is a medical emergency. If you need them and abruptly stop taking them your stomach acid is going to be pumping out and further damaging the area that was already at risk. Sadly it is also painful and makes you feel very sick.
It has all gone a bit quiet on the newsfront?
Apparently the family have left for an unknown destination and funeral arrangements are underway.
https://extra.ie/2019/08/29/news/irish-news/nora-quoirin-funeral
I wonder if Nora’s parents’ insistence that Their daughter was the victim of crime will be met with the same level of ridicule and abuse as the McCanns? I certainly hope not, and that they get the answers they seek.
I don't think anyone seriously believes that Nora's parents dunnit, so no, they're not likely to be ridiculed & abused in the same way as the McCanns.She was not “severely mentally handicapped” and it was a luxury resort, not a tent in the forest. Apart from that I’m sure your criticism was perfectly justified.
However, I do think it was rather foolish of them, taking their severely mentally handicapped daughter to a bleedin jungle. She'd have been much safer in PDL IMO.
She was not “severely mentally handicapped” and it was a luxury resort, not a tent in the forest. Apart from that I’m sure your criticism was perfectly justified.
Guardians says - "The body of the 15-year-old, who had severe learning difficulties, was discovered less than two miles from an eco-holiday resort where her family had been staying."
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/aug/17/nora-quoirin-family-dismiss-unhelpful-speculation-over-death
I am bemused. What are members suggesting here? Is it the expectation that the obviously much loved Nora should have been treated as sub-human and deprived of the enjoyment of a holiday in the company of her family?
What a weird interpretation of a factual statement.
Don't you think this is a weird statement ??
"However, I do think it was rather foolish of them, taking their severely mentally handicapped daughter to a bleedin jungle. She'd have been much safer in PDL IMO."
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10966.msg565782#msg565782
If not ... can you explain why you agree that Nora should not have been taken on a luxury holiday with her family?
The jungle is full of dangerous stuff like spiders & snakes & waterfalls & stuff.
What's wrong with Butlins?
Why do you advocate that people with disabilities should be unlawfully discriminated against.
Her family said she wasn't independent & didn't go anywhere alone.So you concur with her parents that there is no way she would have left the apartment alone to go wandering in the jungle?
She had learning disabilities, couldn't speak or coordinate properly.
Couldn't make or receive phone calls or wash her hair.
Sounds severely mentally handicapped to me.
So you concur with her parents that there is no way she would have left the apartment alone to go wandering in the jungle?
I'm just being realistic, the jungle is clearly no place for the handicapped.
Nope, I think she was slightly more able than her parents might have imagined.So she wasn’t severely mentally handicapped then.
I think she has woken up before her parents, gone looking for that waterfall she was excited about seeing, she got lost & died of exposure/starvation.
It's either that or some abductor has come along & taken her away for no apparent reason, then changed their mind & left her.
I know which scenario seems more likely to me.
So she wasn’t severely mentally handicapped then.
You've got to have something wrong to go wandering half naked & barefoot through a jungle imo
You've got to have something wrong to go wandering half naked & barefoot through a jungle imoIt must be comforting to the parents to know that there are complete strangers out there who knew their daughter so well, who knew what she was capable of, and who knew what was best for her.
It must be comforting to the parents to know that there are complete strangers out there who knew their daughter so well, who knew what she was capable of, and who knew what was best for her.
Do you think it likely her parents are reading this?You’re just one of thousands of know-it-alls on the net, I’m sure they’re aware of the judgmental, critical comments.
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTJ-TGWRBhN4ISn0GUwBOge4--V0CMm8Dgerwgq84W1t7HtuXkE&s)(https://rileklah.com/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/images/2019/08/15/node-4063/The-Dusun-Seremban-Malaysia-Travel-Mermaid-59-1024x768.jpg?itok=CRpSSbey)
Despite the tragedy which befell Nora and her family ... in my opinion and having read the holiday reviews which no doubt her parents did before booking it ... the holiday destination with all its sensory stimulation was in my opinion an ideal holiday destination which Nora's parents chose with care taking her needs into consideration.
You’re just one of thousands of know-it-alls on the net, I’m sure they’re aware of the judgmental, critical comments.
Maybe I'm wrong & the police will catch her abductor.I won’t. For that to happen the Malaysian police would have to play ball and frankly I wouldn’t hold out any hope whatsoever of that happening.
But I wouldn't hold your breath.
I won’t. For that to happen the Malaysian police would have to play ball and frankly I wouldn’t hold out any hope whatsoever of that happening.
So you seriously believe she was abducted do you?I don’t know if she was abducted or not. Her parents seem to think so. A walk around the jungle? Perhaps she was taken with the intention of holding her for ransom, or to be abused, or to be used in witchcraft, or to punish the tourists, there are other reasons apart from “a walk in the jungle”.
For what purpose? Just to take her for a walk around the jungle?
I don’t know if she was abducted or not. Her parents seem to think so. A walk around the jungle? Perhaps she was taken with the intention of holding her for ransom, or to be abused, or to be used in witchcraft, or to punish the tourists, there are other reasons apart from “a walk in the jungle”.
I think Nora's parents find it more comforting to believe in a criminal element as oppose to accepting they may have failed her by way of taking her to a dangerous area & not preventing her from wandering off.You also think that a "severely mentally handicapped" half naked, barefoot 15 year old who "can't even brush her own hair" was able to survive independently in rugged jungle terrain for over a week AND managed to find her own way to the waterfall. I'm not really very impressed by what you think tbh.
You also think that a "severely mentally handicapped" half naked, barefoot 15 year old who "can't even brush her own hair" was able to survive independently in rugged jungle terrain for over a week AND managed to find her own way to the waterfall. I'm not really very impressed by what you think tbh.
On what planet is it more comforting to believe that your child was stolen by strangers than simply wandered off by herself? In both cases you would blame yourself for not being there for your child to protect her - the thought of your child being violated by malevolent human beings is surely as horrific to contemplate as any other scenario?
You also think that a "severely mentally handicapped" half naked, barefoot 15 year old who "can't even brush her own hair" was able to survive independently in rugged jungle terrain for over a week AND managed to find her own way to the waterfall. I'm not really very impressed by what you think tbh.In fairness, and I know almost nothing about this case and don't intend to learn, but being found 1.6 miles from the base, in a clear state of malnourishment, I doubt foul play is a factor. Water is not a problem in the jungle, neither is food, but it's obviously alive with all sorts of harmful shit, any of which she may have come in to contact with.
It's absolves them of responsibility if they believe & claim the waterfall guides/child abductors took her.They are absolved of all responsibility whatever happened. I don't see anyone attempting to charge them with anything do you? What crime have they committed in your opinion?
They are absolved of all responsibility whatever happened. I don't see anyone attempting to charge them with anything do you? What crime have they committed in your opinion?
They are absolved of all responsibility whatever happened. I don't see anyone attempting to charge them with anything do you? What crime have they committed in your opinion?
In fairness, and I know almost nothing about this case and don't intend to learn, but being found 1.6 miles from the base, in a clear state of malnourishment, I doubt foul play is a factor. Water is not a problem in the jungle, neither is food, but it's obviously alive with all sorts of harmful shit, any of which she may have come in to contact with.According to her parents Nora had serious coordination problems and was wholly dependent on her family, yet she managed to survive more than a week in hostile terrain, in a jungle crawling with spiders and snakes, in thick vegetation, steep hills too. It seems from reports that her body was not badly marked despite her week long exposure to insects, animals, vegetation, etc. She also managed to get herself to the waterfall - this a girl who according to Spam was "severely mentally handicapped". Surely some pause for thought there, or does that all seem perfectly plausible to you? I guess it does, but it is a matter of opinion. From the latest report it seems that another post mortem was conducted (if I'm reading it right) so maybe that will shed more light...
I'd expect a fully cognisant adult to last weeks in the jungle if they don't have an accident, receive a toxic bite or eat some poisonous shit.
A vulnerable, mentally impaired, semi-clad child? Days.
In fairness, and I know almost nothing about this case and don't intend to learn, but being found 1.6 miles from the base, in a clear state of malnourishment, I doubt foul play is a factor. Water is not a problem in the jungle, neither is food, but it's obviously alive with all sorts of harmful shit, any of which she may have come in to contact with.
I'd expect a fully cognisant adult to last weeks in the jungle if they don't have an accident, receive a toxic bite or eat some poisonous shit.
A vulnerable, mentally impaired, semi-clad child? Days.
Of course they aren't.Which IMO they acquitted perfectly well, except in the eyes of judgemental b........s on the internet. No doubt they blame themselves anyway. It can't be easy losing a child in such circs, and I'm sure their pain is not lessened knowing that the chattering classes are putting the boot into them somewhere in cyberspace at any given moment.
They had a responsibility of care.
In fairness, and I know almost nothing about this case and don't intend to learn, but being found 1.6 miles from the base, in a clear state of malnourishment, I doubt foul play is a factor. Water is not a problem in the jungle, neither is food, but it's obviously alive with all sorts of harmful shit, any of which she may have come in to contact with.I would say water is a massive problem... Clean water that is. Drinking water from a stream would almost certainly cause dysentery with death in a couple of days
I'd expect a fully cognisant adult to last weeks in the jungle if they don't have an accident, receive a toxic bite or eat some poisonous shit.
A vulnerable, mentally impaired, semi-clad child? Days.
*edit: depending on the time of day, walk 10 metres in to the primary jungle and you could find any lights shining externally will probably not be visible.
I would say water is a massive problem... Clean water that is. Drinking water from a stream would almost certainly cause dysentery with death in a couple of daysClean water is generally abundant in tropical conditions. No streams required (although you could climb upstream and check for carcasses of dead animals, etc)
According to her parents Nora had serious coordination problems and was wholly dependent on her family, yet she managed to survive more than a week in hostile terrain, in a jungle crawling with spiders and snakes, in thick vegetation, steep hills too. It seems from reports that her body was not badly marked despite her week long exposure to insects, animals, vegetation, etc. She also managed to get herself to the waterfall - this a girl who according to Spam was "severely mentally handicapped". Surely some pause for thought there, or does that all seem perfectly plausible to you? I guess it does, but it is a matter of opinion. From the latest report it seems that another post mortem was conducted (if I'm reading it right) so maybe that will shed more light...4 days wasn't it? Sounds about right.
Clean water is generally abundant in tropical conditions. No streams required (although you could climb upstream and check for carcasses of dead animals, etc)
..depends how reliable the PM was... It sounds decidely dodgy to me
Given the fact that the autopsy found no abuse or foul play, her wandering off & starving to death is the most likely scenario.
It's either that or the waterfall guides/child abductors took her away & gave her a stomach ulcer.
I understand clean water is readily available... rainwater on leaves etc... But I doubt she would realise that and take the plentiful option... StreamsStop it now. See water drink water. I don't think she had the capacity to think any deeper than that. As you stated, rain water is on leaves, ffs. It's EVERYWHERE!
Stop it now. See water drink water. I don't think she had the capacity to think any deeper than that. As you stated, rain water is on leaves, ffs. It's EVERYWHERE!
..depends how reliable the PM was... It sounds decidely dodgy to meOf course it does. But consider the scrutiny on the coroner from the world's press, the Malaysian PM, etc. You'd better make this the best autopsy you've ever frickin done pal!
See water.. Drink water... Streams ...contaminated with bacteria harmless to locals but not to tourists.Nobody walks past water to find water. Not even you.
You aren't the only one to have been in a jungle
Nobody walks past water to find water. Not even you.The whole episode seems odd.... The parents certainly think so. The PM result seems odd . I think there could be more to this than the authorities have led us to believe. I'm keeping an open mind
Nobody walks past water to find water. Not even you.
....and Rocket Pool doesn't quite count as 'the jungle'.
The whole episode seems odd.... The parents certainly think so. The PM result seems odd . I think there could be more to this than the authorities have led us to believe. I'm keeping an open mindI am too. I've got no info apart from knowledge of the terrain (not Malaysia). There may be foul play, but it's equally likely that she wandered off, disorientated, then once under the canopy you're more or less fcked without help.
You have no idea, where I've travelled and that's the way it will stayBut you've just told me you've been to the jungle, so I now know that, despite your vow not to tell me.
I am too. I've got no info apart from knowledge of the terrain (not Malaysia). There may be foul play, but it's equally likely that she wandered off, disorientated, then once under the canopy you're more or less fcked without help.
But you've just told me you've been to the jungle, so I now know that, despite your vow not to tell me.Never heard of Rocket Pool and my only visit to Wolverhampton will be when they play the football team I follow
And you've been to Rocket Pool, Wulvuramtpun.
4 days wasn't it? Sounds about right.No, not 4 days. Her body was found 10 days after going missing, and had not been in situ very long. You do the math.
No, not 4 days. Her body was found 10 days after going missing, and had not been in situ very long. You do the math.7 days? 8? And the post mortem is now accurate? Or just this part was measured correctly? As I said, I know nothing.
7 days? 8? And the post mortem is now accurate? Or just this part was measured correctly? As I said, I know nothing.I believe the place where her body was found had been searched the day before and her body was not there then. So maybe as many as 9 days yes. A very long time for a “severely mentally handicapped “ child with co-ordination problems to survive in the jungle alone, virtually naked and barefoot.
She's done very well to get to 8 / 9 days, unless she stumbled across some semblance of uninhabited infrastructure at some point.
I believe the place where her body was found had been searched the day before and her body was not there then. So maybe as many as 9 days yes. A very long time for a “severely mentally handicapped “ child with co-ordination problems to survive in the jungle alone, virtually naked and barefoot.Seemingly, yes. As I say, don't know any facts about the resort, proximity to infrastructure, habitation, jungle trails - don't know.
Seemingly, yes. As I say, don't know any facts about the resort, proximity to infrastructure, habitation, jungle trails - don't know.Despite some people's certainty that the child was not a victim of anything other than "parental neglect", I would say that the matter is far from settled. Perhaps the post mortem will give closure, or perhaps it will trigger more heartache for the parents as they try and get the Malaysian authorities to re-open the investigation.
But as I stated earlier, she would succumb in days rather than weeks, but probably not of thirst.
She may well be victim to more than parental neglect, but evidence of that has yet to be demonstrated. IMOThe fact that you go along with the "parental neglect" angle is beyond belief imo, though I don't know why I should be surprised really. Did you used to watch over your kids all night long to make sure they didn't come to mischief? If not, why not? They could have climbed out of the window and plummeted to their deaths, or fallen down the stairs to their deaths, or gone into the kitchen and stabbed themselves to death with a knife. Or stuck their fingers into a plug socket and fried themselves to death. Or wrapped a dressing gown cord around their necks and hanged themselves.
Things can be missed in searches the first time like that body. If there was any evidence of foul play then you should know about it. They did a post mortem.
The family are suing the resort,also it says another PM was done and results are awaited.
Nóra Quoirin’s parents file civil claim against Malaysian resort
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/n%C3%B3ra-quoirin-s-parents-file-civil-claim-against-malaysian-resort-1.4130836
The Quoirins are also still awaiting the results of a second postmortem, carried out in London.
Cue the... This is all about money posts.... It's nothing to do with money.. Imo
Strange your thought process immediately goes to it.
The family are suing the resort,also it says another PM was done and results are awaited.
Nóra Quoirin’s parents file civil claim against Malaysian resort
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/n%C3%B3ra-quoirin-s-parents-file-civil-claim-against-malaysian-resort-1.4130836
The Quoirins are also still awaiting the results of a second postmortem, carried out in London.
I think it's reasonable to expect locking windows, but guards, CCTV and 'safety features'? In my opinion clients could only expect those if it was common or the law required holiday compounds to have them.
The court will decide what's reasonable based on the circumstances
Or maybe they won't.A file has been submitted,thats it at the moment.
My opinion is that the main point of this action is to get people into court where they will be under pressure to answer questions..
Anyone's fault but their own.
To find out what had happened to their child in her last days and hours. Not in my opinion an unreasonable thing.
Do you think the holiday company will be party to that information ?
Anyone's fault but their own.The parents were not at fault in any way, correct.
The parents were not at fault in any way, correct.
Nope, obviously it was their fault, for taking her on holiday.Anything could have happened. She could have been stolen from the bath, fallen down the stairs, been electrocuted, burnt to death, and you would have been first in the queue to blame the parents for that as well.
If they'd have stayed at home..........
I would think the court will have the power to call other witnesses. Where the police have failed to launch a criminal enquiry then a civil case can be useful in forcing people to answer questions
I thought in Civil Cases the complainants and defendants called the witnesses. In this case the questions arising are whether the owners of the holiday compound were negligent in some way.
the complainants...the family...can call witnesses. They could use these witnesses to show in court the possibility of a criminal action
Did anyone say it was impossible?
Are witnesses obliged to appear or answer questions ?
I think it's reasonable to expect locking windows, but guards, CCTV and 'safety features'? In my opinion clients could only expect those if it was common or the law required holiday compounds to have them.
Anything could have happened. She could have been stolen from the bath, fallen down the stairs, been electrocuted, burnt to death, and you would have been first in the queue to blame the parents for that as well. That’s what you do, victim blame.
This new information has saddened me some. Here we are again discussing 'broken windows, kidnapped, and the 'child' could not have wandered off.AND a blame game involving money.
It is sickening to the core. I do not blame the family from wanting to find out what happened, but it seems they do not need to know as they have already made up their minds as to what happened. They take no blame what so ever.
I would argue; the security, if this was a priority to the family, should have been mentioned when first noticed OR should have been highlighted as a pre condition on booking the holiday! Like perhaps asking the question- what protection do we have from the jungle animals?
"Window latch broken
The statement of claim states that, on or about March 18th, 2019, the plaintiffs booked and paid for a three-night stay at the Dusun resort from August 3rd until August 6th, 2019.
The family had intended to spend three days at the resort before travelling around Malaysia.
After travelling from overseas, Meabh and Sebastien Quoirin checked into the resort with Nóra and their two other younger children on August 3rd. After the journey “they were exhausted and went to bed”, their claim states.
The next morning, at or about 8 am, Nóra’s parents discovered she was missing and noticed that the window in the living area of the bungalow in which they were staying was ajar.
Their statement of claim alleges that the latch on the window was broken and the window could easily be opened by anyone from outside.
It is also alleged that the perimeter fencing was not secured and the entrance gate of the Dusun was kept open at all times and no security personnel were in place to guard the property.
Furthermore, it alleges that there was no closed-circuit television and no other safety facilities were installed at the resort.
It notes that Nóra was born with a medical condition known as holoprosencephaly which left her with balancing and coordination difficulties. “In addition her motor skills and core strength were very poor, and the deceased was unable to walk without the help of an adult. The mental age of the deceased at the time of death was about five or six years old only.”
Postmortems
After the postmortem on Nóra’s body, Malaysian police said on August 15th that there was no evidence of foul play. The police said the cause of death was upper gastrointestinal bleeding due to a duodenal ulcer complicated with perforation. The bleeding in Nóra’s intestine was most likely caused by prolonged hunger and stress, Negeri Sembilan police chief Mohamad Mat Yusof said.
The final results of the postmortem carried out in Malaysia, including the toxicology reports, have not yet been released.
The Quoirins are also still awaiting the results of a second postmortem, carried out in London.
Nóra’s parents have said they believe there was a criminal element in the disappearance and death of their daughter and have called on the Malaysian authorities to open an inquest.
Mr Nair says he suspects that Nóra was abducted."
says it all. VERY similar to McCanns.
It will be interesting to read the London PM report and the response to that.
However Nóra left the holiday home, it is real strange that she 'survived' in a jungle for all that time, knowing her cognitive mental conditions and functioning capacity as expressed by the parents.
So who's fault is it that Nora wandered off? The Boogey Man's?If Nora (who could barely walk unaided according to her family) managed to wander off into the jungle on her own then it is no one’s fault, it’s just one of those tragic events that could not have been anticipated. Obviously you’d rather slag off the parents which makes me wonder if you have an issue with parents generally.
It's the owners & workers of the resort I feel sorry for,they are victims here, going to have their reputation dragged through the jungle thanks to these parents inability to accept that their daughter went for a morning safari whilst under their care.
If Nora (who could barely walk unaided according to her family) managed to wander off into the jungle on her own then it is no one’s fault, it’s just one of those tragic events that could not have been anticipated. Obviously you’d rather slag off the parents which makes me wonder if you have an issue with parents generally.
(who could barely walk unaided according to her family)
It will be easy to check- did they use wheelchair for their daughter while travelling or other aids? walking stick /crutches, walking frame/with without wheels?
evidence of any of these found in the apartment or claimed to be missing?
If Nora (who could barely walk unaided according to her family) managed to wander off into the jungle on her own then it is no one’s fault, it’s just one of those tragic events that could not have been anticipated. Obviously you’d rather slag off the parents which makes me wonder if you have an issue with parents generally.
I may be wrong, but I thought she was in a bedroom which was up a spiral staircase.
Reports were unclear about that, I thought.
I came across this promotional video for the Dunsun Resort in Malaysia. It shows the spiral staircase and how open plan the bungalows are.
I wonder why the tracker dogs were so completely useless at tracking her down.
Maybe the abductor masked her scent somehow.Why is a jungle more scent rich than a city or a forest?
Or it could just be that tracker dogs aren't 100% effective, particularly in such a dense & scent rich environment.
Why is a jungle more scent rich than a city or a forest?
IDK, maybe all the decomposing vegetation, the animals & creatures, the moist & muggy environment, possibly.Forests have those too, cities have millions of people, fumes, rats, fast food, rubbish - I don’t buy it.
It seemed to have been a strange choice of accommodation for a youngster who apparently couldn't walk unaided? If she slept downstairs with the parents in what was effectively an open plan layout in a relatively small area, how on earth could she have been abducted?
It seemed to have been a strange choice of accommodation for a youngster who apparently couldn't walk unaided? If she slept downstairs with the parents in what was effectively an open plan layout in a relatively small area, how on earth could she have been abducted?She was sleeping upstairs. Her parents were downstairs.
She was sleeping upstairs. Her parents were downstairs.They picked the most precarious staircase in Malaysia for their disabled daughter to negotiate continually.
They picked the most precarious staircase in Malaysia for their disabled daughter to negotiate continually.
Stay classy guys.
then perhaps she was less physically disabled than we ve been told....This is a typical drawing conclusions based on little evidence...or perhaps its ironyYou seeing in to the future again, Nostradavros?
You seeing in to the future again, Nostradavros?
They picked the most precarious staircase in Malaysia for their disabled daughter to negotiate continually.Negotiate continually?? They were meant to be there for three days - did they plan to just go up and down the staircase for the duration of their trip?
Stay classy guys.
Information about her disabilities came from her family.
Yes....with enough knowledge of past events its relatively easy to make predictions of future events..thts how intelligent people operateOne of them must have told you that little nugget.
One would expect her parents to have been truthful and accurate about her limitations.One would expect that a child with the condition she had would have been known by many medical personnel over the years who would easily be able to confirm or refute the parents claims, so IMO it would be extremely foolish of them to lie about it.
If no, why not ?
One would expect that a child with the condition she had would have been known by many medical personnel over the years who would easily be able to confirm or refute the parents claims, so IMO it would be extremely foolish of them to lie about it.
Patient confidentiality perhaps ?The patient is dead, in case you hadn’t noticed.
One would expect her parents to have been truthful and accurate about her limitations.
If no, why not ?
MISSING teenager Nora Quoirin is so disabled, she struggles to walk or even balance and “would go nowhere alone”, her family said yesterday.so not a statement by her parents
Her parents say she is virtually incapable of wandering off and believe she must have been abducted.
In a statement released by the Lucie Blackman Trust on behalf of Nora’s family, including mother Meabh and father Sebastian, they said: “She is not like other teenagers.
“She is not independent and does not go anywhere alone.”
They told how Nora, of Balham, south London, was born with holoprosencephaly, a condition which leaves her struggling to walk, balance and look after herself.
They also revealed “her verbal communication is limited” and that she “cannot write more than a few words”.
The statement added: “Nora is very sensitive. Outside the family, she is very shy and can be quite anxious.
“Every night, her special time is for cuddles and a night-time story with her mum.
“Nora was born with holoprosencephaly. This means that she has a smaller brain. All of her life, she has spent a lot of time in hospital.”
The statement added: “She has been to Asia and many European countries before and has never wandered off or got lost.”
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1164076/nora-quoirin-missing-search-malaysia
so not a statement by her parents
The patient is dead, in case you hadn’t noticed.
I think it still applies.yes it does, admittedly, but in a criminal investigation police can apply to see patient records. Also, I don’t think teachers of deceased children are bound by pupil confidentiality. And then there are friends and extended family members who may take a dim view of the parents misrepresenting their relative’s abilities.
Where did the Lucy Blackman Trust get their information?
Patient confidentiality perhaps ?
Meabh said that it would have been "impossible physically, mentally to imagine that she [Nora] could have got any distance at all".
"She never even walked as far as our neighbours' front door by herself," she added.
"To think that Nora might get up in the middle of the night, naked, barefoot, get out of the bungalow into the jungle, bearing in mind the terrain is extremely steep and dangerous, in total darkness, makes absolutely no sense," he told RTÉ.
"We think it is absurd to think about this possibility."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-50829844
One thing her parents have never said is that she could not have simply walked off on her own... Which would suggest she couldYeh, it's getting old now.
Nora's father didn't discover she was missing until 8am, therefore she wouldn't necessarily have had to left the bungalow "in the middle of the night, in total darkness", it being August at the time it was probably light by 5:30 or 6 am imo.
You are wrong. Time of sunrise for August 2019 averages around 7.10am.
https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/malaysia/seremban?month=8&year=2019
Twilight would begin some time before 7:00 then, IMO it wouldn't be total darkness until 7:00.Twilight in Malaysia is very short, around 30 minutes at most.
Supposing she left at first light, let's say anywhere between 6:30, 7:00. That would still give her a couple of hours head start before any search parties were organised & out IMO.
Even with some limited mobility she could still make a fair distance in that time IMO.
After that it's like looking for a needle in the jungle. She could have gone in any number of directions.
I just can't buy the criminal element theory, assuming her post mortem was accurate, no bruising, no sexual abuse & she was found lying with her head on her hands as if she were sleeping.
Whatever happened it's a tragedy & I don't believe it's the fault of the resort, however I wouldn't be surprised if the Quoirins are successful in some way with their civil suit.
I feel for the family, but it seems wrong that another family should suffer too by being sued. This resort is a family affair and it's purpose is to enable others to share the unique setting, the peace and the wildlife and it provides some local employment. Children under 12 yoa stay free. It's not a purely commercial venture.It is purely a commercial venture, it exists for no other reason that I can see.
Please do not "suppose" an invented time for first light, it is unnecessary to do so when the actual time has already been indicated to you.
There is no first light until sunrise which from the 1st until the 12th of August is on record as being 07:11am; from the 13th until the 20th of August sunrise was recorded at 07:10am; until by the 31st the sun rises at 07:07.
https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/malaysia/seremban?month=8&year=2019
When you have an accurate time available to you why introduce a time which is wrong?
Sunrise is at 8:04 in the UK today, it's now 7:30 & beginning to get light, maybe things work differently in Malaysia, the sky remains bathed in pitch darkness until god turns the lights on full at precisely 7:10.That’s pretty much it, you’ve obviously not spent any time in the Tropics.
And you do them the same courtesy of course hence knowing nothing about sunrises near the equator.What do you want to know?
What do you want to know?I lived there for years but thanks for the insight. I doubt a six house eco resort in the middle of the jungle was lit up like Vegas in the middle of the night, silly observation imo.
Night time in the jungle comes like that [snaps fingers]. One minute it's gloomy, then next you can't see your hand in front of your face.
Untrained, getting lost would be the first thing you would do.
Having said that, the environs of the resort would be lit up like Vegas, surely?
You yourself said there's 30 minutes of twilight before dawn, did you not?I was erring on the generous side possibly. It is a much shorter interval than you are used to in Britain certainly. It certainly wouldn’t be light that would wake up a jetlagged teenager. When I used to go home from the UK I would sleep until after lunch on my first day back.
Are you taking that back now?
I lived there for years but thanks for the insight. I doubt a six house eco resort in the middle of the jungle was lit up like Vegas in the middle of the night, silly observation imo.I don't know much about this case, alas, but isn't it on a complex of some sort?
I don't know much about this case, alas, but isn't it on a complex of some sort?Before you make any further comment I suggest you google Dusun Resort. All will be revealed. It’s unlikeness to Las Vegas will also become apparent.
It is purely a commercial venture, it exists for no other reason that I can see.
What I meant was that it's no big commercial holiday provider. The parents own the land, but their children own some of the houses. No-one's getting rich in my opinion.No one claimed they were. The amount of damages being sought is in proportion, compared, say with the £43 million that Ikea has just coughed up because one of its chest of drawers fell on a child causing death.
What I meant was that it's no big commercial holiday provider. The parents own the land, but their children own some of the houses. No-one's getting rich in my opinion.
Presumably they will be insured but as I've said I think the action is aimed at getting people into court and getting questions answeredYeh but premiums. Fatality. Fuggedaboutit.
Presumably they will be insured but as I've said I think the action is aimed at getting people into court and getting questions answered
Suing is about blame and compensation. The questions arising are whether the owners of the compound were negligent by having a broken window catch, a poorly maintained fence, an open gate, no guards and no CCTV.I think the owners of this resort are/were supremely naive in thinking that the houses were completely secure for tourists to stay in, being as they are completely open plan, and open to the outside world with no shutters on the verandahs, etc. It was only a matter of time before there was a burglary or worse.
Whether Nora left under her own steam or was taken by someone else, it's true that the above measures may have prevented her from going or offered clues as to how she left.
The question is whether it was reasonable to expect those things to be provided in that compound and in that country. I think it will be difficult to sustain except possibly in relation to the window lock.
Suing is about blame and compensation. The questions arising are whether the owners of the compound were negligent by having a broken window catch, a poorly maintained fence, an open gate, no guards and no CCTV.
Whether Nora left under her own steam or was taken by someone else, it's true that the above measures may have prevented her from going or offered clues as to how she left.
The question is whether it was reasonable to expect those things to be provided in that compound and in that country. I think it will be difficult to sustain except possibly in relation to the window lock.
Suing is not always about compensation..... In this case I think the driving force is to get answers to questions.
The parents said there were a lot of unanswered questions and this is a way of getting some answers
The fact of the matter is that suing is about blaming someone for something. If it's successful then the person is punished both reputationally and financially. It's not something that should be used for another purpose.In your opinion... I think its perfectly valid when they feel the police haven't given the answers they want. It's a perfectly valid way of forcing the issue imo
I think the owners of this resort are/were supremely naive in thinking that the houses were completely secure for tourists to stay in, being as they are completely open plan, and open to the outside world with no shutters on the verandahs, etc. It was only a matter of time before there was a burglary or worse.
It's perfectly clear before booking what the resort is like. In my opinion it would be completely unrealistic for anyone expecting guards and CCTV to book a stay there.It's perfectly reasonable to expect your property and family to be safe and secure in a holiday resort of any description when paying that sort of money. Night watchmen should have been a given, they are quite common in Malaysia. Secure gates into the resort and high perimeter fencing is also not out of the question. IMO.
It's perfectly reasonable to expect your property and family to be safe and secure in a holiday resort of any description when paying that sort of money. Night watchmen should have been a given, they are quite common in Malaysia. Secure gates into the resort and high perimeter fencing is also not out of the question. IMO.
It's perfectly reasonable to expect your property and family to be safe and secure in a holiday resort of any description when paying that sort of money. Night watchmen should have been a given, they are quite common in Malaysia. Secure gates into the resort and high perimeter fencing is also not out of the question. IMO.
It's perfectly clear before booking what the resort is like. In my opinion it would be completely unrealistic for anyone expecting guards and CCTV to book a stay there.
In your opinion... I think its perfectly valid when they feel the police haven't given the answers they want. It's a perfectly valid way of forcing the issue imo
Where do you holiday? (&^&I lived in Malaysia for many years but I suppose my opinion counts for nothing as far as you and your pathetic collection of emoticons are concerned.
I think the outcome of the case will be decided by what it's reasonable to expect in Malaysia. Their country, their rules.https://asklegal.my/p/bad-holiday-from-hell-malaysia-can-i-sue
The answer they want is that Nóra was abducted, if there isn't any evidence that happened then I fail to see how the Malaysian police can give them that answer, they're not Scotland Yard.
What was the level of crime in the area.... That's a good first questionIt's the jungle, so very low, however there are local Orang Asli in the area who are poor folk, some of whom worked at or likely know people who work at the resort. Wherever there are tourists there will be the potential for crimes to be committed.
The answer they want is that Nóra was abducted, if there isn't any evidence that happened then I fail to see how the Malaysian police can give them that answer, they're not Scotland Yard.
What was the level of crime in the area.... That's a good first question
Suing the owners of the resort won't provide the answer either imo.
As far as I can see the Dusun resort never claimed to have security guards on duty, so I think it would be unreasonable to expect there to be.
If they wanted to stay at a resort that had security guards then perhaps they should have booked with one that listed them in their brochure.
As far as I can see the Dusun resort never claimed to have security guards on duty, so I think it would be unreasonable to expect there to be.How many holiday brochures detail the security arrangements? A good way to put people off to say the premises is patrolled by guards and CCTV!
If they wanted to stay at a resort that had security guards then perhaps they should have booked with one that listed them in their brochure.
Suing the owners of the resort won't provide the answer either imo.
There could have been a cartel of crack dealers living nearby, that still wouldn't prove Nora was abducted.What a stupid remark, IMO. No one has suggested it would prove anything.
What a stupid remark, IMO. No one has suggested it would prove anything.I think Davros is suggesting a correlation between the prevailing crime rate and the likelihood of an abduction / murder.
I think Davros is suggesting a correlation between the prevailing crime rate and the likelihood of an abduction / murder.
I think Davros is suggesting a correlation between the prevailing crime rate and the likelihood of an abduction / murder.I don’t think he is tbh
Simply looking at the need for security... Obviously if there is little or no crime then security doesn't have to be so tight... If there was regular petty crime it's different .that's the sortbof question the police may have been able to avoid but will have to answer if called
If there was regular petty crime at the Dusun resort, they'd have some security by now, the place has been running for 30 years.Monkeys. Most of the crime, I will guarantee, will be down to monkeys.
Monkeys. Most of the crime, I will guarantee, will be down to monkeys.There are no Proboscis monkeys in the jungle of the peninsular. Some gibbons though. they're nice (though they've probably been wiped out by now).
I befriended a pygmy Proboscis Monkey, who I named Terry, who eventually became my man-servant. I had to evict him forcefully from the tent as he turned out to be a very adept, duplicitous kleptomaniac.
And he was rubbish at cooking.
The police case is closed one wonders how a civil one can proceed.Disgraceful, but not surprising.
Nora Quoirin death: Parents 'shocked' by decision to close case
The teenager's parents have now learned no further action is to be taken in the case. They said it would mean that no inquest would be held.
The Malaysian Attorney General's Chambers has classified the case as "no further action", according to the Lucie Blackman Trust.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-51065360
Disgraceful, but not surprising.
The police case is closed one wonders how a civil one can proceed.
Nora Quoirin death: Parents 'shocked' by decision to close case
The teenager's parents have now learned no further action is to be taken in the case. They said it would mean that no inquest would be held.
The Malaysian Attorney General's Chambers has classified the case as "no further action", according to the Lucie Blackman Trust.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-51065360
OJ Simpson... Criminal case not guilty... Civil case... Liable
As I've said. They can call police as witnesses and they will have to supply answers
You've quoted the usa,is it the same in malaysia?
If they don't suspect foul play why is it either of those things.Did you actually read the article? It sounds to me like the Malaysian authorities are very keen to brush this one under the carpet.
Did you actually read the article? It sounds to me like the Malaysian authorities are very keen to brush this one under the carpet.
Two sides to every story we only have The Lucie Blackman Trust's opinion.,the Malaysians say, The Malaysian Attorney General's Chambers has classified the case as "no further action", according to the Lucie Blackman Trust.Well they would say that wouldn’t they. So when Iran’s authorities tell you that the plane was not shot down by missiles I suppose you accept that too!
Well they would say that wouldn’t they. So when Iran’s authorities tell you that the plane was not shot down by missiles I suppose you accept that too!
OJ Simpson... Criminal case not guilty... Civil case... Liable
As I've said. They can call police as witnesses and they will have to supply answers
The Lucy Blackman trust said it,not the Malaysian authorities. Iraninan propaganda is as far away from this as is the moon.
The police case is closed one wonders how a civil one can proceed.
Nora Quoirin death: Parents 'shocked' by decision to close case
The teenager's parents have now learned no further action is to be taken in the case. They said it would mean that no inquest would be held.
The Malaysian Attorney General's Chambers has classified the case as "no further action", according to the Lucie Blackman Trust.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-51065360
I can't see why the police would be called in a case between the family and the resort. What evidence could they give about broken window locks, open gates, security guards or CCTV?
I was referring to “no further action”, and actually the Malaysian authorities have more in common with the Iranian authorities than you might think.
The Lucy Blackman trust said it,not the Malaysian authorities. Iraninan propaganda is as far away from this as is the moon.
Mr and Mrs Quoirin said the decision was based only on a preliminary report from the coroner's office and meant there would be no inquest into Nora's death.
Perhaps the authorities now have the full report.
They could be called about the searches... About previous crime in the area... About what they found when they arrived at the scene... Think laterally
The case is about whether the Dusun was negligent. Previous crimes at the compound may be relevant, but not the searches or the 'crime scene' imo.
If the parents claim lax security led to a criminal offence then they can...let's wait and see
There's no evidence of a criminal offence, so their claim is groundless.
There's evidence to suspect a criminal act
It appears the Malaysian authorities aren't of that mind.
Have the parents ever come under suspicion?
If not why not?
If yes on what basis?
There's evidence to suspect a criminal act
Which evidence?
I could present all of it but would you accept it... Based on the fact you don't accept the overwhelming evidence that smoking causes cancer I doubt it
If you don't present it then people are entitled to conclude you have none.
Have the parents ever come under suspicion?
If not why not?
If yes on what basis?
Under suspicion of what crime? what would be the motive?
Here are the issues I am thinking about:
Her physical mobility and independent functioning level, her mental capacity.
Her body was found naked- but no sexual assault- what state were her clothes in?
A reward was put up by a wealthy Northern Irish businessman.
A fund was set up- not used to offer reward.
I am not sure if the parents did harm their daughter, I do doubt it though. However, they misinterpreted their daughters mobility and abilities and failed to secure the apartment to safeguard their children. The initial responsibility for children is their parents/guardians.
Blaming and suing the resort is disgraceful and crass IMO. It smacks of blood money and shifting blame. They lost my respect.
they still have my utmost respect. They have said the police have ignored them and refused to answer questions. By raising a civil claim they can force the police to come to court and answer questions. They have had some every good legal advice
erm... they are NOT suing the police. They are suing the resort on the basis of lack of security. Which will have no police input what so ever!
you obviously dont understand....wait and see . they are suing theresort...the police will be called as witnesses and forced to answer the questions they have so far refused to answer
Why would the police be called as witnesses? would this be for the defendant or pursuer. and what would they be witness to?
The family may well have to provide evidence of their daughters illness. The resort will defend, and I am sure some things the family didn't want brought up, will be brought up.
Shall we just wait and see...I have personal experience of this ...plus
I spoke to someone this week whose son was killed. The police say it was an accident...the parents believe he was murdered....the police are basically useless. I advised them to take out a civil claim...the burden of proof is not as high in a civil case....and those he believes murdered his son have no right to silence in a civil court...they have to answer questions
You have experience of everything- according to you.
There is no right to silence however other tricks "I CAN'T REMEMBER" "I AM NOT SURE" Etc are allowed. Then it comes down to who the judge believes.
So in your experience, and the known outcome of your advice to friends, what happened to the lying police officers?
It will be interesting what blame the police can have chucked at them in this specific case. Any Ideas?
Perhaps in Davel land... in reality. Why would the police be called as witnesses? would this be for the defendant or pursuer. and what would they be witness to?
The family may well have to provide evidence of their daughters illness. The resort will defend, and I am sure some things the family didn't want brought up, will be brought up.
If they're going to claim their daughter was incapable of leaving on her own they will definitely need to provide evidence of that. Her condition affects everyone differently. Some of those affected are so bad they can't be carried to full term in pregnancy. At the other end of the spectrum some are so lightly affected they can live a normal lifespan.
The other side to this is,did they inform the resort of the girls difficulties and enquire if it was suitable.
If they're going to claim their daughter was incapable of leaving on her own they will definitely need to provide evidence of that. Her condition affects everyone differently. Some of those affected are so bad they can't be carried to full term in pregnancy. At the other end of the spectrum some are so lightly affected they can live a normal lifespan.
If they're going to claim their daughter was incapable of leaving on her own they will definitely need to provide evidence of that. Her condition affects everyone differently. Some of those affected are so bad they can't be carried to full term in pregnancy. At the other end of the spectrum some are so lightly affected they can live a normal lifespan.
None of this matters in the slightest... A court case will get answers to questions
This is very true G. That will be the crux of the matter. what were her cognition's and on what scale.
Did they do what I did with my mum when she had her accident (fully recovered now). When traveling we always checked disabled facilities available. Access to local interests toilets etc.
"The other side to this is,did they inform the resort of the girls difficulties and enquire if it was suitable."
The evidence will be with the travel agents- the airport videos, etc
It matters because all of this is relevant in a court case. The family will be asked questions as well.
Nora's doctors, teachers, perhaps physiotherapists are the ones to testify about her capabilities.
Yes, that will cost some. Perhaps they will 'skype' or VC to save traveling costs.
I do wonder what questions the family will have for the police,since they are not involved with her safety as per lawsuit.
They responded to the call> raised a search> found the body> arranged a PM. What else can be added?
i just hope people who blame police for everything will never call the police if they need them that would be hypocritical wouldnt it?? people blame police when they are in the wrong themselves imo
In the UK for most crimes it's not worth calling the police... Your crime will not be investigated and the criminals know they can get away Scott free
This is somewhat true Davel. However ' race crime' does get a lot of attention. The' thought police' make sure of that.
Race crime does get attention.. And rightly so
None of this matters in the slightest... A court case will get answers to questions
Yep. The questions which relate to whether the resort was negligent.
It's the same old 'blame someone else for one's own shortcomings'. The parents had a duty of care to that child but failed her miserably and now they want to make themselves feel better by pointing the finger at the hotel and the police.Failed her miserably how? By caring for her and loving her all her life and taking her on holiday? I suppose they should have just stuck her in a home and have done with it like used to happen in the “good ol’ days”.
Failed her miserably how? By caring for her and loving her all her life and taking her on holiday? I suppose they should have just stuck her in a home and have done with it like used to happen in the “good ol’ days”.
Well let's see *%87 ...she's dead isn't she and now they want to blame someone else and collect some compo?If a child dies in whatever circumstances it doesn’t always follow that their parents “failed miserably “ as you seem to suggest. So at precisely what point did the Quorins fail Nora miserably?
Beats me how any child could be abducted from such a small open-plan chalet without anyone hearing anything and given that she was supposed to have been sleeping in the same place as her two siblings. Was anyone aware of their surroundings?
If a child dies in whatever circumstances it doesn’t always follow that their parents “failed miserably “ as you seem to suggest. So at precisely what point did the Quorins fail Nora miserably?
Time will tell no doubt.
Time will tell no doubt.
Time will tell no doubt.No answer then. What’s time got to do with it? You made a statement of fact “her parents failed her miserably” so you tell us in what way precisely they did that, or do you just make a habit of blaming the parents any time a child disappears or dies?
imo some get too emotionally involved with these cases thats just IMOyes, why are so many people so angry and judgmental about Nora’s parents?
yes, why are so many people so angry and judgmental about Nora’s parents?
Nora by all accounts was vunerable because of disability's, whose responsibility would it be,of course fully realising they can't be watched 24/7.
Nora by all accounts was vunerable because of disability's, whose responsibility would it be,of course fully realising they can't be watched 24/7.Her parents. Now tell me in what way her parents behaved irresponsibiy? Including her on stimulating and expensive family holidays around the world?
yes, why are so many people so angry and judgmental about Nora’s parents?
Why do Nora's parents appear to be angry and judgemental?
Why do Nora's parents appear to be angry and judgemental?They have an emotional and physical involvement in the case and therefore it is their right, unlike thousands of Daily Mail readers.
Because their daughter has disappeared and according to them the authorities have not answered the questions they have asked.. Have not held an inquest... Have not revealed full details of the PM and have decided there was no criminal involvement
'According to them' is exactly right. They have a theory and they want everyone to agree with it. As yet, there's no evidence that they're right and the police were wrong. It's the same with the suing of the resort. They think the resort was at fault in some way, but that doesn't mean they were.It doesn’t meant they’re wrong either, so all these people passing judgement now would do well to shut their beaks. IMO.
'According to them' is exactly right. They have a theory and they want everyone to agree with it. As yet, there's no evidence that they're right and the police were wrong. It's the same with the suing of the resort. They think the resort was at fault in some way, but that doesn't mean they were.
They think.........
her disappearance and death were “caused directly by the defendant’s negligence and/or recklessness,”
https://www.thejournal.ie/nora-quoirin-legal-case-4954709-Jan2020/
It doesn’t meant they’re wrong either, so all these people passing judgement now would do well to shut their beaks. IMO.
So the only people allowed to 'pass judgement' are those who think the parents are right?If everyone stopped jumping in and passing judgement on everything, especially before the full facts are revealed, and especially about victims and their families, the world would be a kinder, more empathetic place, don’t you agree?
So the only people allowed to 'pass judgement' are those who think the parents are right?
If everyone stopped jumping in and passing judgement on everything, especially before the full facts are revealed, and especially about victims and their families, the world would be a kinder, more empathetic place, don’t you agree?
You are passing judgement, although you seem to think you're not.I didn't say I wasn't - I sit in judgement of those who sit in judgement and I find them guilty of being nasty b........s.
I didn't say I wasn't - I sit in judgement of those who sit in judgement and I find them guilty of being nasty b......s.
In my opinion you have judged the situation and decided that the family are behaving correctly.No, what I have judged is that there is no evidence that they failed Nora miserably and have judged that those who make such unpleasant claims to be unpleasant themselves. Is that OK with you? If not, why not?
Which government? UK, Irish or French? The cause of death is known, so what would an inquest add?
I'm surprised that there isn't an inquest, but perhaps it isn't mandatory in Malaysian law.
An inquest is held in England and Wales to answer four questions;
Identity of the deceased
Place of death
Time of death
How the deceased came by their death
it is not the purpose of the inquest to determine, or appear to determine, criminal or civil liability, to apportion guilt or attribute blame.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquests_in_England_and_Wales#Where_an_inquest_is_needed
If Malasia is similar, then the answers to those four questions have been answered imo.
Have you got an alert set up Spam so that you are instantly notified of any old dribble reported in the press about this case? Or are you just a regular Sun reader?
Why not just put a gps tracker on everyone at birth and be done with it.
Indeed, why not.
No more missing people.
A GPS bracelet, belt or necklace doesn't sound like a terrible idea to me.
Although the obvious problem is that this can be easily removed.
I have a relative who has severe dementia, she recently wandered off but thankfully was found by a relative.
The level of her disability is such that she probably wouldn't have been able to communicate her name or address had she been found by a stranger.
But I'm not sure I could approve of a mark on the forehead & right hand.
lol tattoo...behave.Ugh !
Yes, Housebound people with mobility issues are given an alarm which they wear around their neck to press if they fall. it immediately transfers a call to a person who can talk to the injured person. Perhaps disguised as a pierced earning? I see many babies with pierced ears in summer time on holiday!
Ugh !