UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Alleged Miscarriages of Justice => Jeremy Bamber and the callous murder of his father, mother, sister and twin nephews. Case effectively CLOSED by CCRC on basis of NO APPEAL REFERRAL. => Topic started by: Joanne on September 09, 2012, 06:00:47 PM
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Is there a plan of the footprint of the house at all? I'm trying to get my head round 3 staircases and the general layout.
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Is there a plan of the footprint of the house at all? I'm trying to get my head round 3 staircases and the general layout.
What do you mean by footprint, Joanne?
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Is there a plan of the footprint of the house at all? I'm trying to get my head round 3 staircases and the general layout.
What do you mean by footprint, Joanne? >@@(*&)
Do you mean general plans like these...
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8((()*/
Spot on, thank you.
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An excellent reply Myster. 8((()*/
To help you Joanne, here is a photo of the back of the house which might assist you to put the plans into context.
(http://i.imgur.com/qTe9k.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/bNwp0.jpg)
The brown back-kitchen door is the one forced by police on the morning of the murders. The window immediately to its right and centre photo is the one the police officer peered into and thought he saw the body of a female slumped in a chair behind the kitchen door. We know of course that this was in fact Nevill Bamber.
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This is a photo of the front of the house. Top floor far left is the window of the master bedroom where the bodies of June and Sheila were found and where the rifle was photographed leaning against the inside windowsill at one stage.
(http://i.imgur.com/QxC1h.jpg)
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This is yet another view of the rear annex of the house taken from the opposite side to that above.
(http://i.imgur.com/baYCe.jpg)
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Here are three more photos of the back of the house which you may find useful.
(http://i.imgur.com/Yn4Kr.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/aRlRb.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/fn7RD.jpg)
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I see Roch is pinching my photos again...naughty boy Davey. @)(++(*
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Where are these from, John?
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Where are these from, John?
From the case files I believe.
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Can you get hold of the court transcript?
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Can you get hold of the court transcript?
Bits of it were transcribed but hard to get a hold of at the moment.
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There are bits in the Blood relations. Never seen the full transcript though.
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Does anyone know where the gun cupboard was actually located?
I've seen pictures of it but I can't figure out on plan exactly where it is... in the Back Kitchen and Office.
I've posted them here as I don't think they're available in the case photos section...
[attachment deleted by admin]
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If you look carefully on the plan which Jeremy drew out for the police on the morning of the murders you will see the word "RIFLES" and two marks shown just above the word scullery.
(http://i.imgur.com/ZVpQl.jpg)
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I notice there are two large bricked up windows on the front of the kitchen entry side of the house. I guess that goes back to when property taxes were calculated on the number of windows. Silly tax!
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Thanks again John!
That was another word that confused me until you pointed out what it was..., it looks like "BE2LTs"
That plan is also misleading in that the Laundry/Back Office extends across the whole width of the back extension when on the police plans it shows the actual width.
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Thanks again John!
That was another word that confused me until you pointed out what it was..., it looks like "BE2LTs"
That plan is also misleading in that the Laundry/Back Office extends across the whole width of the back extension when on the police plans it shows the actual width.
Those stairs which are beside the gun cupboard, do you know how you access them on the ground floor. Are they by any chance accessed via the gun cupboard? 8-)(--)
(http://i.imgur.com/Wv2Bx.jpg)
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Thanks again John!
That was another word that confused me until you pointed out what it was..., it looks like "BE2LTs"
That plan is also misleading in that the Laundry/Back Office extends across the whole width of the back extension when on the police plans it shows the actual width.
Those stairs which are beside the gun cupboard, do you know how you access them on the ground floor. Are they by any chance accessed via the gun cupboard? 8-)(--)
(http://i.imgur.com/Wv2Bx.jpg)
If you mean that room on the right with the open white door, then you would have to climb over all that rubbish inside first!... unless those stairs were not used at all.
The stair winders do seem to rotate towards the inside of that room.
I always thought that the gun cupboard was that with the little door with the visible underside of the stair treads and risers... the one that Bamber claimed wouldn't fit a rifle with telescopic sights and/or moderator fitted.
There is a photo somewhere of it with a rifle placed just inside.
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I notice there are two large bricked up windows on the front of the kitchen entry side of the house. I guess that goes back to when property taxes were calculated on the number of windows. Silly tax!
If you think about it the main bedroom would have had two draughty, rattling sliding-sash windows at one stage..., no fun trying to get to sleep on a cold winters night, with the wind blowing down your neck.
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Having looked at some of the photos again Myster I can see that this raises a very interesting possibility. I don't think they used the second or third staircases at all. If you look at the picture below of the second staircase you can see that it is really a storeroom and nothing more. I can't see Sheila or anyone else using that staircase that morning.
(http://i.imgur.com/fh0Fc.jpg)
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Where have you been hiding all these marvellous clear photos, and letting us amateur sleuths suffer! @)(++(*
I don't think that the stair to the cellar, under the main staircase in the hall was used much either.
Didn't one of the raid team put is foot through one of the rotten treads?
So that probably leaves only the one functioning staircase in the property.
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Where have you been hiding all these marvellous clear photos, and letting us amateur sleuths suffer! @)(++(*
I don't think that the stair to the cellar, under the main staircase in the hall was used much either.
Didn't one of the raid team put is foot through one of the rotten treads?
So that probably leaves only the one functioning staircase in the property.
That's what I was just thinking...sort of shines a new light on Mike Tesko's wild theories yet again. @)(++(*
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Nice to see someone else with as messy and untidy a house mine!
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Nice to see someone else with as messy and untidy a house mine!
The farm house in that picture and the one I saw of the pantry appear to be in a state of disorder. Old fhouses are sometimes like that but its not as if they couldnt afford a bit of maintenance is it. Do you think June didnt take an interest in the appearance of her home ??
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Nice to see someone else with as messy and untidy a house mine!
The farm house in that picture and the one I saw of the pantry appear to be in a state of disorder. Old fhouses are sometimes like that but its not as if they couldnt afford a bit of maintenance is it. Do you think June didnt take an interest in the appearance of her home ??
You are correct about old houses with back stairs and pantries being left in a bit of a mess. My grans house was like that, I don't know how she was ever able to find anything. Mind you us boys found it a bit of a treasure trove at times and many a useful item long discarded was found to be of some use to us. In many cases Claud it is a case of out of sight - out of mind.
The public areas of the house were neat and tidy though which leads me to believe that poor June was house proud in many ways.
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I see Roch is pinching my photos again...naughty boy Davey. @)(++(*
So do I, nick wherever I can. 8)--)) I have quite a collection. Made the picture thread on the blue forum, but I have many photos which are not added, since I am not there any longer.
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I see Roch is pinching my photos again...naughty boy Davey. @)(++(*
So do I, nick wherever I can. 8)--)) I have quite a collection. Made the picture thread on the blue forum, but I have many photos which are not added, since I am not there any longer.
I still have the pictures i put on the blue forum, abs. I might upload them here if i can find them!
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I´ll nick´em if I don´t have them!
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Having looked at a brightened up photo of Nevill's den with the cubby-hole/gun cupboard in the corner, I seem to think that the small room with the open door was a vestibule just inside the Back Door. There seems to be a way through to the bottom of the stair between a coat rack and chair/seat on the back wall and a small wooden box just to the left of the door jamb.
As the room above was the upper office, the stairs may have had more use than I previously thought, even though they look fairly steep, around 50 degrees.
(Roger Wilkes mentions that Robert Boutflour went "up" to the office to see the farm secretary to pay for two farm forks that his son bought off Jeremy Bamber)
Bamber's rough sketch shows the upper office closed off from the rest of the house, but the case plan shows it to be open, although this may be because it is unfinished.
Does John, abs, or anyone know whether the upper office was closed off from the bedroom passage, to keep the two functions, residential and commercial separate?
If it was open then this would have been more convenient for the assailant to get upstairs without disturbing anyone or the dog.
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I cant find em. I will have to look in my phone and see if theyre still there.
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Having looked at a brightened up photo of Nevill's den with the cubby-hole/gun cupboard in the corner, I seem to think that the small room with the open door was a vestibule just inside the Back Door. There seems to be a way through to the bottom of the stair between a coat rack and chair/seat on the back wall and a small wooden box just to the left of the door jamb.
As the room above was the upper office, the stairs may have had more use than I previously thought, even though they look fairly steep, around 50 degrees.
(Roger Wilkes mentions that Robert Boutflour went "up" to the office to see the farm secretary to pay for two farm forks that his son bought off Jeremy Bamber)
Bamber's rough sketch shows the upper office closed off from the rest of the house, but the case plan shows it to be open, although this may be because it is unfinished.
Does John, abs, or anyone know whether the upper office was closed off from the bedroom passage, to keep the two functions, residential and commercial separate?
If it was open then this would have been more convenient for the assailant to get upstairs without disturbing anyone or the dog.
I don´t know - I find the floorplans of the house extremely confusing.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udJLbDXhTuk&feature=related
Can anyone speak french!! This is a french doc about Bamber.
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Some footage of the house i have never seen before.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udJLbDXhTuk&feature=related
Can anyone speak french!! This is a french doc about Bamber.
A nice find Andy. I can speak enough French to understand most of the video. It doesn't tell us any more than we already knew but the commentary by Julie is interesting. She refers to Jeremy as a very sad man. I assume she means pathetic rather than sorrowful?
It goes with the theory that he cycled to and fro on the night of the murders.
One thing I have been thinking about is why didn't Jeremy cover himself with an iron clad alibi if he had someone else do the killings? I believe the reason for not doing so was because he was there.
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Are you going to get a few screen shots from it?
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Are you going to get a few screen shots from it?
Watched it, thanks Andrea.
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I havent watched it in full yet. I cant understand French.
Would like to know what they said about the trial.
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Are you going to get a few screen shots from it?
If you want...what would you like?
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I havent watched it in full yet. I cant understand French.
Would like to know what they said about the trial.
Just generalities basically all of which we already know. Most of it was taken from existing Press reports.
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Hadn´t seen the drawings of the trial.
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I can see how easy it would have been for Jeremy Bamber to enter WHF by the sliding-sash window to the Washroom/Toilet in the corner here...,
(http://i.imgur.com/6PqUF.jpg)
...as it's well concealed from view on the Eastern side of the building and large enough for an adult to get through, but to exit from the upper casement of the kitchen window here...,
(http://i.imgur.com/4hA6l.jpg)
...he would need to be a contortionist.
Wilkes identifies this same window by means of a photo as the escape route.
Does anyone have any alternative ideas?
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From the Court of Appeal documents.
99. Later the appellant said he had decided to shoot his family and he told her that he had discovered that the catch on the kitchen window did not work and he could gain access to the house in that way. The appellant said he planned to leave the address by a different window, which latched when it was shut from the outside.
135. He told the police that there were occasions when he gained entry to his parents' home by way of a number of the downstairs windows including those in the kitchen and the bathroom. He explained that he used a knife to move the catches in order that the window could be opened from the outside.
141. The appellant claimed to have returned to the farmhouse within a day or two of his release from the Police Station, i.e. a day or two from the 13 September, and gained entry via the downstairs bathroom window. He said he had done this because he had left his keys in London and needed some documents for his trip to the South of France.
146. He had the means and knowledge to gain entry to the address, one such route being through the bathroom window.
149. The appellant returned the moderator to the gun cupboard and before leaving the address called his home at Goldhanger, leaving the receiver off the hook, thus lending support to the alibi he would later rely upon. He then left the premises, one available route being to climb out of the kitchen window, banging it from the outside to drop the catch back into position and then cycled home.
151. iv) The appellant's admitted ability to effect covert entry into and exit from the farmhouse and the finding of the hacksaw blade outside the bathroom window.
262. It was the Crown's case that the appellant entered White House Farm, for the purpose of carrying out the murders, by the downstairs bathroom window and left the premises by the kitchen window.
263. Police Sergeant Golding gave evidence that at 2.30 p.m. on 7 August he commenced to secure the ground floor and found all windows to be secure and fastened with the exception of two windows. One was in the ground floor bathroom, which was in a closed position with the catch open. He secured the window by closing the latch. The other was a transom window, which formed part of a casement type window in the kitchen. The transom window was open approximately halfway. He secured the window.
268. The examination of the Farm for entry and exit marks became particularly significant. On the 1 October 1985 Brian Elliott a forensic scientist examined the window catch and surrounding area of the downstairs bathroom/toilet sash window. He noticed that the brass catch had been scratched on the inner edge and that there was damage to the white paintwork on the adjacent faces of the top of the bottom sash and the bottom of the top sash. The white paint on the outside of the window including the outer face of the top of the bottom sash appeared clean and fresh.
269. He concluded that the damage to the sash window and catch was consistent with a thin blade having been inserted between the closely fitting sashes of the window in an effort to force the catch open. Furthermore this attack occurred after the outside of the window had last been painted. There was evidence that the windows had been painted in June and July.
270. It was the prosecution case that the marks on the paintwork had been made by the appellant when entering the Farm during the late evening or early hours of the 6 or 7 August in order to commit the murders.
271. It was the defence case, revealed for the first time at trial, that the appellant made those marks following his release after Police interview on or about 16 September upon his return from London having forgotten his keys. It was of potential advantage to the defence to demonstrate that the window in question was examined on the 8, 9, or 10 September and that at that time no marks were found on the window.
273. ..."They (Robert Boulflour and Ann Eaton) thought the windows could be locked from outside the premises making particular reference to the window behind the bushes by the Geese pond facing towards the tennis court".
This would appear to be the kitchen window and provides the explanation for DC Barlow's examination of the kitchen window.
279. In evidence the appellant stated that he had returned to the farm the night after his release or the night after that – i.e. on the 14 or 15 September. In evidence he said
"After my arrest at Chelmsford I went to London, came back and had not got my key. I needed car documents kept in the office for a holiday and I got in the loo window."
284. On the 12 September, 2 days later he was asked:
"Question: Have you ever got in a window by putting something in between the window frames, like a knife, to move the catch so you could slide the window open?
Answer: "Yes".
Question: Which window?
Answer: Downstairs toilet and lounge window".
http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html
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It was alleged Jeremy entered the farmhouse via the window for the downstairs toilet and that he climbed out of a window in the kitchen.
This is what Arlidge accused Bamber of doing during the trial.
(Wilkes prints a part extract of the court transcript, pg. 240.)
And of course JB denied it all!
That 2002 Court Judgement is enough to give you a headache twice over..., I printed it all out a year ago to read at leisure. When you've read through to the end you forget what was at the beginning!
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From the Court of Appeal documents.
279. In evidence the appellant stated that he had returned to the farm the night after his release or the night after that – i.e. on the 14 or 15 September. In evidence he said
"After my arrest at Chelmsford I went to London, came back and had not got my key. I needed car documents kept in the office for a holiday and I got in the loo window."
284. On the 12 September, 2 days later he was asked:
"Question: Have you ever got in a window by putting something in between the window frames, like a knife, to move the catch so you could slide the window open?
Answer: "Yes".
Question: Which window?
Answer: Downstairs toilet and lounge window".
That was a slip up... big time!
If he wanted everyone to believe he was innocent, why not say he'd never got in through the windows at all.
Apparently there was a spare kitchen door key in the coal-shed, which either Jean Bouttell or Barbara Wilson used.
JB must have known where that was.
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From the Court of Appeal documents.
279. In evidence the appellant stated that he had returned to the farm the night after his release or the night after that – i.e. on the 14 or 15 September. In evidence he said
"After my arrest at Chelmsford I went to London, came back and had not got my key. I needed car documents kept in the office for a holiday and I got in the loo window."
284. On the 12 September, 2 days later he was asked:
"Question: Have you ever got in a window by putting something in between the window frames, like a knife, to move the catch so you could slide the window open?
Answer: "Yes".
Question: Which window?
Answer: Downstairs toilet and lounge window".
That was a slip up... big time!
If he wanted everyone to believe he was innocent, why not say he'd never got in through the windows at all.
Apparently there was a spare kitchen door key in the coal-shed, which either Jean Bouttell or Barbara Wilson used.
JB must have known where that was.
He could have got the key from Barbara to get in but he didn't want her to know where he was going. She might have deemed it necessary to inform the police.
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From the Court of Appeal documents.
279. In evidence the appellant stated that he had returned to the farm the night after his release or the night after that – i.e. on the 14 or 15 September. In evidence he said
"After my arrest at Chelmsford I went to London, came back and had not got my key. I needed car documents kept in the office for a holiday and I got in the loo window."
284. On the 12 SeHptember, 2 days later he was asked:
"Question: Have you ever got in a window by putting something in between the window frames, like a knife, to move the catch so you could slide the window open?
Answer: "Yes".
Questioon: Which window?
Answer: Downstairs toilet and lounge window".
That was a slip up... big time!
If he wanted everyone to believe he was innocent, why not say he'd never got in through the windows at all.
Apparently there was a spare kitchen door key in the coal-shed, which either Jean Bouttell or Barbara Wilson used.
JB must have known where that was.
If the Police were to find evidence that someone had entered or left via the window, Bamber would be able to point to this incident, to explain it. Once he realised that he was suspected, he wasted no time in trying to cover his tracks.
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I find it strange that he didn't have a key to the farmhouse as farmers sons usually do? Unless of course he did but as the farmhouse was barred from the inside after dark it wouldn't have made any difference on the morning of the murders.
After the murders though Barbara would have locked it from the outside and he could have used his key to get in then. So why did he admit to going in through the window after the murders unless that was indeed just a story to cover his ass for what happened earlier.
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White House Farm (revised plan)
"Old timers" on the forum will probably know the layout of WHF like the back of their hand, but for newbies this revised plan may prove helpful.
It's based on the following paragraph, which I think was lifted off the last forum or the blue forum (I can't remember which):-
The front of the house is denoted Red, and the side with the kitchen is denoted White. Opposite Red and White are Green and Black respectively.
On entry via the external door on the White side, there was a door to the kitchen on the right (Red) and a door (not bolted) to the room with the gun cupboard to the left (Green). Straight ahead, there was apparently visible a third external door (bolted) on Black side. The nearby staircase provides access to the upstairs office and a storeroom. The police couldn't go via that storeroom to the rest of the house, as the connecting door was secured on Red side. The main staircase (to the bedrooms) can be accessed from the front door (on Red side). The kitchen has a second door to a corridor that leads to the main staircase and front door. The kitchen also has doors to a room (on Black side) behind the kitchen (the pantry) and to a third staircase, which also provides access to the main first floor.
The straight flight of the office staircase (S3) must lie parallel to the external wall (east) as it cuts across the small high-level window (8) which is just visible from outside in photo 2 (to the right of the telegraph pole, about a third of the way up).
The dimensions of the den, rear hall, upper office and store, or the handing of the doors may no be wholly accurate, but the general location is I think correct.
The laundry as drawn on Jeremy Bamber's sketch is more problematic, as to whether it was integral with the den or separated from it by a wall. There must be a sink on the west wall here, as a waste pipe is visible in photos of that (WHITE) side.
The bolted door (5) is the one shown in photo 3.
Any comments good or bad welcome, (even if you think it's totally wrong!)
(http://imageshack.us/a/img268/2779/whfgroundfirstfloorplan.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/tLhLF.jpg)
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Thank's for posting that 8((()*/
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Thanks from me too, Myster - never saw those before. Makes it a lot easier to "understand" the rather complicated layout of the WHF.
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Thanks for posting a scaled drawing of the floor layout Myster, it is a huge improvement on what we had previously. 8((()*/
At last I can now see where the gun cupboard is exactly and where the stairs are accessed from. Great work! 8@??)(
That 'bolted' blue door (5) and shown in picture No 3, I wonder how often that particular door was used if ever?
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From the Court of Appeal documents.
279. In evidence the appellant stated that he had returned to the farm the night after his release or the night after that – i.e. on the 14 or 15 September. In evidence he said
"After my arrest at Chelmsford I went to London, came back and had not got my key. I needed car documents kept in the office for a holiday and I got in the loo window."
284. On the 12 SeHptember, 2 days later he was asked:
"Question: Have you ever got in a window by putting something in between the window frames, like a knife, to move the catch so you could slide the window open?
Answer: "Yes".
Questioon: Which window?
Answer: Downstairs toilet and lounge window".
That was a slip up... big time!
If he wanted everyone to believe he was innocent, why not say he'd never got in through the windows at all.
Apparently there was a spare kitchen door key in the coal-shed, which either Jean Bouttell or Barbara Wilson used.
JB must have known where that was.
If the Police were to find evidence that someone had entered or left via the window, Bamber would be able to point to this incident, to explain it. Once he realised that he was suspected, he wasted no time in trying to cover his tracks.
Jeremy was not all that bright and had struggled educationally compared to his peers . Cunning, ruthless and plausible when it suited his objectives in life but lacking in the capacity to think things through . This, IMO, lead to his downfall despite the complete horlicks of an investigation conducted by Essex Police. He failed to work out that a .22 is not a quick effective killing weapon. He could have got away with the crime if he had not given the Police the contrived tale of the telephone call to him from Nevill on the night of the murders. He could not stop himself being indiscreet talking to his girlfriend, Julie. His extravagant behaviour after the murders was bound to make people suspicious of him, including his plundering of valuable contents of WHF and even poor Sheila's flat before probate had been granted. No wonder that relatives were concerned and tried to protect cherished family heirlooms. The business of getting into the house via this window when he could have perfectly easily got in via normal means is characteristic and is another example of a lack of clear thinking. His arrogant behaviour in Court was not consistent with a young man wrongly accused of an awful crime. All pieces in a jigsaw pointing to his guilt .
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Jeremy was not all that bright and had struggled educationally compared to his peers . Cunning, ruthless and plausible when it suited his objectives in life but lacking in the capacity to think things through . This, IMO, lead to his downfall despite the complete horlicks of an investigation conducted by Essex Police. He failed to work out that a .22 is not a quick effective killing weapon. He could have got away with the crime if he had not given the Police the contrived tale of the telephone call to him from Nevill on the night of the murders. He could not stop himself being indiscreet talking to his girlfriend, Julie. His extravagant behaviour after the murders was bound to make people suspicious of him, including his plundering of valuable contents of WHF and even poor Sheila's flat before probate had been granted. No wonder that relatives were concerned and tried to protect cherished family heirlooms. The business of getting into the house via this window when he could have perfectly easily got in via normal means is characteristic and is another example of a lack of clear thinking. His arrogant behaviour in Court was not consistent with a young man wrongly accused of an awful crime. All pieces in a jigsaw pointing to his guilt .
You have encapsulated the points quite nicely Dillon. His actions weren't exactly conducive with those of a bereaved innocent survivor were they?
By introducing the imaginary telephone call from his father he effectively pointed the finger at Sheila. Some posters have suggested that this was a change to his plan but I feel that was his intention from the beginning to set her up.
Your other point about using a relatively low powered .22 rifle to shoot people is spot on. Nobody would such a weapon because it is ineffective. It is only effective with small animals and birds, it is not something any professional hitman would ever use. Jeremy must have shit his pants when he realised that three bullets would not put Nevill down. That poor man fought for his survival and his family, he is to be admired greatly for that.
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Those are excellent plans Myster and very useful. I have always found the layout of the farmhouse to be a bit confusing. I also note that there were two doors into Sheilas bedroom which is interesting. Did you create the plans or were you able to find them on another site Myster?
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Thanks for posting a scaled drawing of the floor layout Myster, it is a huge improvement on what we had previously. 8((()*/
At last I can now see where the gun cupboard is exactly and where the stairs are accessed from. Great work! 8@??)(
That 'bolted' blue door (5) and shown in picture No 3, I wonder how often that particular door was used if ever?
Thanks John!
I tried a couple of times to post them as attachments to reduce the amount of space they would take up but all I got was a blank screen when I pressed the Post button....., so I just uploaded them to Imgur.
Either the file was too big or the site traffic was too great.
Photo 3
The blue door (5) looks unusually wide, but I don't think it's distorted by a wide-angle camera lens, as the fishing waders appear normal size. If it had a lock and handle they could be hidden from view by that white cupboard, so you can't really tell if it was used or not.
By the amount of gear not locked up under the canopy, this side of the house was obviously used.
What looks like a waterfilled tank in the foreground may have been for washing the waders in. Could there have been a fishing pond on this eastern side, possibly hidden from view by the trees in the google overhead photo?
I wondered too if the white-painted surround on the left belongs to a door, not shown on the plan, which gives direct access to the Scullery? Or maybe it's just a window frame.
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Thank's for posting that 8((()*/
Thanks from me too, Myster - never saw those before. Makes it a lot easier to "understand" the rather complicated layout of the WHF.
Thank-you Joanne and abs.
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I can't see the photos on the other forum, can someone post the picture from the stairs showing the rifle in the window? I seem to recall a window directly in front of the stairs on the upper floor. Maybe I recall it wrong. Don't think it makes a difference really, just curious.
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Those are excellent plans Myster and very useful. I have always found the layout of the farmhouse to be a bit confusing. I also note that there were two doors into Sheilas bedroom which is interesting. Did you create the plans or were you able to find them on another site Myster?
Thank-you David.
They were created from the unfinished case plan copies downloaded originally from the previous forum, redrawn with additional rooms & furniture etc., scanned then labelled with Photoshop, and joined together with Irfanview.
One thing that I've wondered occasionally is whether Sheila having been woken up by the struggle between JB and his father on the stairs or in the kitchen, got up and saw her mother lying in the doorway, then went to check on the twins, heard her brother come back upstairs and tried to hide in that connecting Box room, before she was eventually forced or dragged into the master bedroom.
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I can't see the photos on the other forum, can someone post the picture from the stairs showing the rifle in the window? I seem to recall a window directly in front of the stairs on the upper floor. Maybe I recall it wrong. Don't think it makes a difference really, just curious.
Your wish is my command...,
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I can't see the photos on the other forum, can someone post the picture from the stairs showing the rifle in the window? I seem to recall a window directly in front of the stairs on the upper floor. Maybe I recall it wrong. Don't think it makes a difference really, just curious.
Your wish is my command...,
Thankyou, I knew I remember a window, its that the door has a window in it, that explains the box room on you plan.
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I can't see the photos on the other forum, can someone post the picture from the stairs showing the rifle in the window? I seem to recall a window directly in front of the stairs on the upper floor. Maybe I recall it wrong. Don't think it makes a difference really, just curious.
Your wish is my command...,
Thankyou, I knew I remember a window, its that the door has a window in it, that explains the box room on you plan.
If I understand your post correctly, yes it is a glazed door to the box-room hiding behind the handrail and newel post.
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We have marked on the following link the position of White House Farm (A) and the fishery lake (B).
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?saddr=Whitehouse+Farm+Cottages,+Pages+Ln,+Tolleshunt+D%27Arcy,+Maldon,+Essex+CM9+8AA,+UK&daddr=51.754864,0.799019&hl=en&ll=51.757401,0.803246&spn=0.007305,0.021007&sll=51.754705,0.79932&sspn=0.007306,0.029182&geocode=CdMCwzbOqRLPFWrKFQMd3UYMAClR87Diex7ZRzHjrnMtxUP-pw%3B&t=h&mra=mift&mrsp=1&sz=16&z=16
(http://i.imgur.com/nESTR.jpg)
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I can't see the photos on the other forum, can someone post the picture from the stairs showing the rifle in the window? I seem to recall a window directly in front of the stairs on the upper floor. Maybe I recall it wrong. Don't think it makes a difference really, just curious.
Your wish is my command...,
That's interesting, I've never seen the rifle against the window from that angle before. Much has been made on the blue forum that WPC Jeapes saw a rifle leaning against a window in the upstairs room. I do not believe she would have been able to see the rifle from the angle she would have been looking up at the window from outside (not with absolute certainty anyway).
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I can't see the photos on the other forum, can someone post the picture from the stairs showing the rifle in the window? I seem to recall a window directly in front of the stairs on the upper floor. Maybe I recall it wrong. Don't think it makes a difference really, just curious.
Your wish is my command...,
That's interesting, I've never seen the rifle against the window from that angle before. Much has been made on the blue forum that WPC Jeapes saw a rifle leaning against a window in the upstairs room. I do not believe she would have been able to see the rifle from the angle she would have been looking up at the window from outside (not with absolute certainty anyway).
It is obvious that she saw it leaning against the window when she was inside. She couldn't have seen it from the grounds in front of the house due to the angle and also due to the reflections from the glass windows. It is nigh impossible to see anything throgh glass when you are looking up at an angle of about 70 degrees or more.
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That's what I was thinking Milly, the angle just seems like it would have been too steep to see from the ground. Another thing that seems to be accepted as fact on the blue forum is that Jeremy was under surveillance by police for cultivating cannabis at his home at the time of the murders so he would have been witnessed if he had left the house to go and murder his family. Where on earth did this idea come from? Is there any evidence at all to suggest there could be any truth in it at all (Operation Cool is the name given by police to this investigation apparently)?
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That's what I was thinking Milly, the angle just seems like it would have been too steep to see from the ground. Another thing that seems to be accepted as fact on the blue forum is that Jeremy was under surveillance by police for cultivating cannabis at his home at the time of the murders so he would have been witnessed if he had left the house to go and murder his family. Where on earth did this idea come from? Is there any evidence at all to suggest there could be any truth in it at all (Operation Cool is the name given by police to this investigation apparently)?
They didn't do a great job of it did they? They couldn't even stop him clearing off to France just weeks after the murder such was the incompetence by Essex Police and he and Collins were supposed to be under surveillance then.
In relation to the barrel of a rifle being seen through the closed window of a first floor bedroom by someone standing in the grounds below, that is quite a feat. The truth is that it is impossible and even if it had been seen it could have just as well have been a broom handle as the main part of the rifle wouldn't have been visible. I am afraid that this suggestion is yet more blue forum hot air and fantasy.
The rifle was set against the window simply to allow Sheila's body to be removed.
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I'm sure that is the case, however, WPC Jeapes does mention seeing a rifle against the window in a top floor room in her statement, that is a fact not just blue forum hot air. However, I just can't see how she would have been able to see this from the ground at all (if it was the same rifle and the same window as the one in this thread).
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The comment by PC Julia Jeapes in her statement about seeing a rifle leaning against a window is a strange one. Having looked at the statement and the layout the window she is referring to is the box room window. This is not the location depicted in the police photo of a rifle leaning against a bedroom window.
To be honest I don't know how she could possibly identify a rifle at that range even though there was a light on in the box room. Could it have simply been a broom handle and hse has in fact got her windows mixed up?
(http://i.imgur.com/b1wS2.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/ZwxSz.jpg)
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The whole statement was a b*lls up........ she couldn't even decide which was the WHITE and which was the RED side..... that is unless by "white/red side" she meant "on the WHITE side but nearer to the RED side than the GREEN".
If a light was on in that Box Room and assuming the curtains if any were open then it could have been easier to see something leaned against the window. Surely a tactical firearms unit would have been equipped with powerful binoculars or telescopic sights on their weapons?
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Who lives at the farm now? Is it still within the family? Do they still have the caravan park too?
Ann & Peter Eaton live theire now Jo and yes they still have the caravan park. The park has been well developed and evidently is a lucrative asset. Good luck to them; they are victims of Jeremy Bamber too.
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Who lives at the farm now? Is it still within the family? Do they still have the caravan park too?
As Tim has already stated, Ann and Peter eaton are tenants at the farm. Just to clarify Joanne, White House Farm was never an asset within Nevill's estate as they rented it and were merely tenant farmers. Nevill did own another farm nearby though as well as a couple of properties.
The caravan park is owned by a private Company. Ann was a former director but resigned a while back in favour of daughter Janie. I am not sure who the other director is but it could be David Boutflour. Ownership is certainly within the family.
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Which WHF plans has Tesko posted in this thread "The RIDDLE of the BACK STAIRCASE" on the blue forum?
Are they the same ones I put on here, or are they a different set?
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Thank you so much myster for posting those plans of the farmhouse and to everyone else who has contributed to this very informative thread. I must say I am not the best person at deciphering plans and have always been somewhat confused by the cavernous tricky layout at White House. I can at last see how the staircases fit into the scheme of things and how Mrs Caffell could never have moved around the house undetected after the police entered.
Thank you all again.
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Thank you so much myster for posting those plans of the farmhouse and to everyone else who has contributed to this very informative thread. I must say I am not the best person at deciphering plans and have always been somewhat confused by the cavernous tricky layout at White House. I can at last see how the staircases fit into the scheme of things and how Mrs Caffell could never have moved around the house undetected after the police entered.
Thank you all again.
Me too Mr K. Especially those stairs which linked the upstairs and downstairs offices in the house. At least now I know where they are located thanks to myster taking the trouble to draft a new plan. 8@??)(
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Thank you so much myster for posting those plans of the farmhouse and to everyone else who has contributed to this very informative thread. I must say I am not the best person at deciphering plans and have always been somewhat confused by the cavernous tricky layout at White House. I can at last see how the staircases fit into the scheme of things and how Mrs Caffell could never have moved around the house undetected after the police entered.
Thank you all again.
Thank you so much myster for posting those plans of the farmhouse and to everyone else who has contributed to this very informative thread. I must say I am not the best person at deciphering plans and have always been somewhat confused by the cavernous tricky layout at White House. I can at last see how the staircases fit into the scheme of things and how Mrs Caffell could never have moved around the house undetected after the police entered.
Thank you all again.
Me too Mr K. Especially those stairs which linked the upstairs and downstairs offices in the house. At least now I know where they are located thanks to myster taking the trouble to draft a new plan. 8@??)(
My pleasure, Mr Justice K and John.
The problem of the Den, Office staircase and Gun Cupboard location had been nagging away like a stone in my shoe for a while.
As I've never been a member of the blue forum, I don't know if any other complete plans have been released and posted there, so there was no other alternative than to figure it out.
I think the only extant ones are the police plans in reply #2 in this thread, and I'm not sure why they were unfinished.
Since I posted the new ones, there are a few minor amendments that I've made..,
The location of the door D1 from the Store to the bedroom accommodation, which has moved to the Bathroom/Store Room wall, (mentioned on the blue forum), which more sensibly allows for headroom in the S2 stairwell.
The Kitchen table re-oriented to comply with the SOC photograph + door added to S2.
The Store Room/Upper Office dividing wall position may not be accurate, as the Store has no natural light, so perhaps it may have been located to take in one of the upper windows on the WHITE side.
I think that the settle against which Jeremy Bamber leant his rifle, and on which he left ammunition is the one just visible next to the coat rack in the Den photo. (the square above the word Hall in the plan)
Just a little disappointed that they are only low resolution, because the originals are over 3 MB..., but I found they're difficult to upload via Imgur/ImageShack, and impossible to post as attachments.
I'll post the amended ones again when internet traffic is less busy.
And you are right..., Sheila Caffell never budged from her parents' bedside after that first neck shot and it's offensive to her memory to suggest otherwise.
Thanks to John for posting all the external photos too! 8@??)(
Last Edit: October 31, 2012, 09:26:34 PM
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I'm not sure why you weren't able to upload an attachment as there currently is no limit on the size. 8-)(--)
That said, I would encourage the use of sites like imgur.com as it helps to save space on our own server. The blue forum had a problem with this a while back but they upload most of their own photos directly to the server which uses up much valuable space.
You can always e-mail the images to me.
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I'm not sure why you weren't able to upload an attachment as there currently is no limit on the size. 8-)(--)
That said, I would encourage the use of sites like imgur.com as it helps to save space on our own server. The blue forum had a problem with this a while back but they upload most of their own photos directly to the server which uses up much valuable space.
You can always e-mail the images to me.
John, do us all a favour and let frizzbomb back on here. For a day.
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Oh, Andy!! Loving your work on the blue!! You cheeky b....r!!
8)><( Boo hoo, Blumpkin!!
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I'm not sure why you weren't able to upload an attachment as there currently is no limit on the size. 8-)(--)
That said, I would encourage the use of sites like imgur.com as it helps to save space on our own server. The blue forum had a problem with this a while back but they upload most of their own photos directly to the server which uses up much valuable space.
You can always e-mail the images to me.
John, do us all a favour and let frizzbomb back on here. For a day.
Don't talk about children to her ... she goes radio rental! Where would we be without our children eh!
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Shes accusing me of lying about that email!! Ah well, all she has to do is ask long term members. she must be bored cos she comes out with some reet shit. @)(++(*
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Shes accusing me of lying about that email!! Ah well, all she has to do is ask long term members. she must be bored cos she comes out with some reet shit. @)(++(*
Ask her straight about the email she sent to me solely about Shona's daughter. Making jokes about her being "ginger" and including a link to a photo of her?
See if she lies thru her frizzy arrse about that too! @)(++(*
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I'm not sure why you weren't able to upload an attachment as there currently is no limit on the size. 8-)(--)
That said, I would encourage the use of sites like imgur.com as it helps to save space on our own server. The blue forum had a problem with this a while back but they upload most of their own photos directly to the server which uses up much valuable space.
You can always e-mail the images to me.
It's all a bit too frenetic on here tonight!..., I'll try again later this week.
Apart from that I need my beauty sleep.....
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Shes accusing me of lying about that email!! Ah well, all she has to do is ask long term members. she must be bored cos she comes out with some reet shit. @)(++(*
Ho ho!! "Speak to her like a child, that's all she understands..."
Speak to Blumpkin like she's a crazy woman, who can only get a bloke if he can't run away. And get her some super-strength wax for those troublesome pubes....."
Off now to walk the dogs and hay the horses. But I'll be back.....
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Shes accusing me of lying about that email!! Ah well, all she has to do is ask long term members. she must be bored cos she comes out with some reet shit. @)(++(*
Ho ho!! "Speak to her like a child, that's all she understands..."
Speak to Blumpkin like she's a crazy woman, who can only get a bloke if he can't run away. And get her some super-strength wax for those troublesome pubes....."
Off now to walk the dogs and hay the horses. But I'll be back.....
Careful in the dark as there are all sorts out there tonight! 8(0(*
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Shes accusing me of lying about that email!! Ah well, all she has to do is ask long term members. she must be bored cos she comes out with some reet shit. @)(++(*
Ho ho!! "Speak to her like a child, that's all she understands..."
Speak to Blumpkin like she's a crazy woman, who can only get a bloke if he can't run away. And get her some super-strength wax for those troublesome pubes....."
Off now to walk the dogs and hay the horses. But I'll be back.....
Careful in the dark as there are all sorts out there tonight! 8(0(*
Who ya gonna call....Blumpbusters!!
Steph. Annie. Stefanny. Everyone knows who you are and what you're doing. It's pointless and wanky. But mildly entertaining. Carry on.
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Did you bump into any ghouls, Shona!!
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Shes accusing me of lying about that email!! Ah well, all she has to do is ask long term members. she must be bored cos she comes out with some reet shit. @)(++(*
Ho ho!! "Speak to her like a child, that's all she understands..."
Speak to Blumpkin like she's a crazy woman, who can only get a bloke if he can't run away. And get her some super-strength wax for those troublesome pubes....."
Off now to walk the dogs and hay the horses. But I'll be back.....
Careful in the dark as there are all sorts out there tonight! 8(0(*
Who ya gonna call....Blumpbusters!!
Steph. Annie. Stefanny. Everyone knows who you are and what you're doing. It's pointless and wanky. But mildly entertaining. Carry on.
And still you pick on Jo. Because she's nice, and polite, and you think that she's like a guinea pig, with no defences. Funny how she's rattled your cage, Blumpers. Is it because she's intelligent, and insightful, and spoken to Simon?
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udJLbDXhTuk&feature=related
Can anyone speak french!! This is a french doc about Bamber.
Here is the video i posted in September, its in French though.Can somebody put it in the video section on here? i dont know how.
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The latest plan of White House Farm on Bambertweets...,
http://twitpic.com/bgnjw6 (http://twitpic.com/bgnjw6)
If Sheila had used the Office staircase as drawn, she would have come face-to-face with a brick wall... and if she fled up the Kitchen stairs she would have to move all that bric-a-brac on the steps first too!
You don't shoot yourself once in the neck with a .22 at point blank range, collapse unconscious on the Kitchen floor, suddenly wake up when you hear police battering down the back door, then make a quick escape upstairs to finish yourself off with a second shot at the side of your parents' bed... period.
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Plans of White House Farm (c.August 1985) Revised September 2014
The only major amendment is a relocation of the upstairs door/panel (D1) to the bathroom wall, to tally with Hartley's (JB Forum) statement...
The stairs go up to the office upstairs, there is a door from the upstairs office into another small room, from this small room there is a door into a bathroom, from this bathroom there is a door onto the main house landing. From the main house landing it leads into all other upstairs rooms with the exception of the box room between the master bedroom and the twins room. The door between the bathroom and the small room could be bolted from the bathroom side, it appears from police witness statements that the bolts were in place.
The settle (9) referred to in Roger Wilkes' book, "Blood Relations" as being opposite the den in the stone flagged vestibule (rear Hall) can be seen through the door in the Office/Den photo.
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Combined and separate Ground and First Floor plans (which can be hard-copied to A4)
to be read in conjunction with the internal and external photographs of WHF.
(http://i.imgur.com/baO6yMK.jpg?1)
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(http://i.imgur.com/q0vQrvy.jpg?1)
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(http://i.imgur.com/GBCM0jP.jpg?1)
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Plans from the 1985/86 Case files:
(http://i.imgur.com/8hH7QCz.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/yeGCUfL.png)
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White House Farm Office/Den & Rear Hall/Scullery.
The gun cupboard was situated underneath the Upper Office stairs in the corner of the Office/Den.
The settle (9) can be seen through the open Office/Den door on the right of the first photo (viewpoint V1).
(https://i.imgur.com/igP3v8q.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/epOefBx.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/AAZGaJB.jpg)
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White House Farm Back Doors (original and new).
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The Washroom, showing the sliding-sash window through which Jeremy Bamber is alleged to have entered White House Farm. Shower to the right of the window...
(http://i.imgur.com/I4LNnQz.jpg)
Early and revised police case plans showing the downstairs Washroom, with shower (faint outline) in the top left-hand corner and cupboard with white door in the bottom left-hand corner...
(http://i.imgur.com/jgN7PdA.jpg)
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White House Farm Gun Cupboard.
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8((()*/ 8@??)(
The latest plan of White House Farm on Bambertweets...,
http://twitpic.com/bgnjw6 (http://twitpic.com/bgnjw6)
If Sheila had used the Office staircase as drawn, she would have come face-to-face with a brick wall... and if she fled up the Kitchen stairs she would have to move all that bric-a-brac on the steps first too!
You don't shoot yourself once in the neck with a .22 at point blank range, collapse unconscious on the Kitchen floor, suddenly wake up when you hear police battering down the back door, then make a quick escape upstairs to finish yourself off with a second shot at the side of your parents' bed... period.
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has any one got the report or photos for where all traces of blood were found.thanks
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Link to White House Farm 3D SketchUp screenshots... http://imgur.com/a/XEW9n (http://imgur.com/a/XEW9n)
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Link to White House Farm 3D SketchUp screenshots... http://imgur.com/a/XEW9n (http://imgur.com/a/XEW9n)
Thanks Myster.
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Some WHF animations: https://vimeo.com/user51282558 (https://vimeo.com/user51282558)
1). Allow sufficient time for each one to load before starting.
2). You might have to play an animation through once first, to avoid stuttering.
3). Use your keyboard Spacebar to start, pause anytime and restart from the beginning.
4). If your graphics hardware is capable, set to 720p HD for best definition.
5). Expand to full screen, if required.