UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧

'Let's stick to transcripts and leave Dr Leans book out of it -----' Unless?

It's interesting and a breath of fresh air. To have you, to have JE and so forth, accept fully that F&W did indeed see LM and no one else. Poor MK, all those yrs of being hounded because of the enablers. DF even attempting an appeal. Makes you wonder why?

So, 'one' says they saw a male down Newbattle Abbey in their 1st statement. Where down NA? Were you in the grounds? No silly, I meant on NR. Ah, so was he standing at the entrance, no I saw him further up than that. Can you tell us where? Yes. And on goes the clarification of where exactly on NR they saw LM, as with their fellow traveller. It is as you say, you're cleverer than that, you know how it goes, don't you?

NR is approx a mile long, split really into 3 sections for those local. NG area, Newbattle Abbey area and Eskbank. F&W into the Newbattle Abbey area.   

CH next? I saw a male standing at a driveway on NR. That's it, the police didn't do a damn thing to determine where that sighting took place, they just accepted it was a driveway out of several on that R'd in the Newbattle area? Of course not, you're cleverer than that. You know the procedure, determining where these sightings had taken place.

We don't swap low wooden gate for high stone pillars. We don't swap looking over to trees for into Newbattle Abbey Cres. Enclosed to out in the open.  We don't swap kerb side to far side, passenger side to driver side. JE who has placed F&W travelling in the opposite direction? Jogger further down the hill. We don't swap down a hill to on the flat. And on it goes, scraping and scraping away, because you know it was LM they saw. But I guess the were both "cajoled" by the police into that 100% change of damn well everything, eh?

It shows how the witness generally described that middle area, as others do. They refer to it as Newbattle Abbey because that section is renowned for the Abbey.

Do you mean like ignoring the multitude of witnesses who saw LM wearing that type of jacket pre - murder? Lovely, all those cars, adding that hype, no one else saw LM at the gate, yet several saw him in a small time frame around 6pm? You know where this is going, don't you?

Like the hype of those giant windows, can't possibly not be seen. Yet nothing, nada, zilch of LM sitting on that wall, around the bus stop, directly at the entrance of his estate. Nothing of him for 25mins from CH to the boys return on the cycle. Goodness me Faith, where the hell was he? Cars in and out the Abbey, cars in and out the estate. Calls his mother, claims it was to ask if Jodi had been to the house, how odd. Did she fly past him then? You know and I know, because you are cleverer than that, he was waiting on no girlfriend. Not for 5mins and not for 80mins.

I suggest you read, then re read, then keep on reading all of their testimony. Then tell me that this signpost was doubled up to give your 'two entry points' to BC? All because I pointed out to you that you were wrong, the opening prior to the estate is not for BC. I gave you a clue and led you to the white painted wall, as also mentioned by the AD. I highlighted all of the entry points to help you on your way.

Where on earth did I say anything of not being seen at BC in my post? I didn't. I was very clear in what I said. There is no evidence of LM sitting on the wall, around the bus stop, entrance to his estate (yet). No evidence therefore of LM having walked from there up and down, from BC's (twice) That is what I said. You decided to jump in with you usual nonsense. To deflect from the absolute fact, that the evidence still supports LM walking down into that vicinity and not up to it. Down after the sighting by F&W. That the evidence supports, that LM had not walked up to BC to see if he could see Jodi in sight at all. He had not been home, he had not walked to the estate entrance from 5:30pm. He had not then walked up to BC, and on it goes.

But and again, you knew that anyway, very much why you plodded in with your size 9's. Possibly still attempting to deflect away from that entry point? Because is is absolute confirmation, that LM did not have to walk past all those big windows as has been claimed. It runs all the way along the outskirts of the housing estate, entry points in to it.  Into the area where the Tarzan swing is also?

The court transcripts haven’t been good for you and your ilk have they Parky?

From the testimony of various witnesses Luke spent much more time around the opening to Barondale cottages than sitting on the wall at the end of his road. Of course extrapolating from your point about Luke not being seen on the wall, he wasn’t seen leaving the house at the time he must have done to commit the murder yet, if you are right he must have done. Further if you discount the witness who allegedly saw Jodi leaving the house after 5pm and those who saw her being followed by Stock Man, as you obviously do, is there any proof Jodi actually left the house?

Of course we know she did and that’s the paradox in your argument. While discarding the dearth of witnesses for points you wish to hammer home you illuminate beyond reason the absence of witnesses for the opposite argument. You really are too clever to be this silly. While there are at least 6 witnesses who saw Luke at or near the opening to Barondale Cottages only two, of all the cars and people on the road that night, allegedly saw Luke at that gate. Further if he went straight from murdering Jodi to home to change to be back out on the Newbattle Road by around 6pm by your logic there must be someone who saw him as you can’t get to Luke’s house without breaking cover at some point. If there’s no witnesses then it didn’t happen. Isn’t that your position?

As to your 80 minute timeline it’s bumpkin. You know it and I do.

BTW what do you think of this snippet from the testimony of Lorraine Fleming?

“Lord Nimmo Smith: And you think that was in some way similar to something that you'd seen?

Lorraine Fleming: Yes.

Lord Nimmo Smith: Similar to what?

Lorraine Fleming: The person that I'd seen down NEWBATTLE ABBEY.”

Surely it should have been RDP? Some leakage perhaps?

Kind of  adds proof to the claim in Dr Lean’s book that a witness came to her to say that Fleming and Walsh first claimed to see a youth near Newbattle Abbey. Don’t you think?

I have been re-reading DF's cross-examination of SM, and what you wrote is incorrect.  He said that he could not remember a great many things and that he has a tendency to agree with what is put to him, including what is put to him by the police.

No, what I put is bang on correct. The AD swiftly showing the Jury just how selective SM's claimed, amnesia was. Don't blame the police for SM's selective memory. He lied, full stop. He had not seen any brother mashing tatties. But he certainly remembered, no problem at all, what he had never said to the police - Aye, ok then Chris! And he lied, changed his account, because his mother had helpfully filled in the blanks for him. Doesn't matter which way you swing it, or who you want to blame. He lied, he had not seen his brother.

And again, playing silly beggars - It is AT who is describing the white painted entrance. There are 4 entrances after NAC, and before the wooden gate of the F&W sighting. I have no idea why you continuously wish to make a fool of yourself, but do so anyway. Excellent as that may be, do it with someone else. You were wrong, stop playing the part of your wounded alter ego.

It matters not a jot whether there are four or four hundred openings before the wooden gate alleged sighting. The opening Turnbull was talking about, and he specifically mentioned the signpost, was to Barondale Cottages. From Google earth the sign post seems to no longer be there.

If Luke was not at the Barondale Cottage opening who did the 3 boys, Caroline Heatlie, Maureen O’Sullivan et al see standing at the opening?

"The opening is obviously created by a gap between the stone wall and the left hand corner we can see is painted white. You may know the right hand one is also painted white" From the boys testimony. But you knew that anyway. Playing silly beggars as per.

SM easily seeing to there from the estate entrance when leaving that day.

Again - No evidence of LM walking to the estate entrance at any time. No evidence of LM sitting on the wall at the entrance, did SL not mention the bus stop also? ( I know, damn). No evidence of LM walking back and forth to Barondale cottages at any time, from where he claimed to have been waiting for the best part of 80mins.

There are two openings after NB Abbey Cresent. Both seem to lead to Barondale Cottages. Both are just feet apart. One now has white painted ends…I don’t know if it was like that in 2003. The pertinent point was that where the boys saw Luke was at the opening signposted Barondale Cottages. Further if Luke had been standing a little back into the opening it is quite possible that Shane wouldn’t have seen him as he turned left coming out of the street.

For the moment let’s put Dr Lean’s book aside and concentrate on the court testimony. BTW who saw Jodi walk to the entrance to RDP?