The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing sooner?

[John]

Thanks John

I've been searching the net looking for  'facts'  on this case  (  not very successfully  )  and in one post you have clarified more than  endless threads here have done   ...  how did you manage to uncover that information  ? 

Well done

Luckily I came across the Acórdão do Supremo Tribunal de Justiça and the translation in English which set out certain facts as agreed by all parties.

[sadie]

Acórdão do Supremo Tribunal de Justiça

Facts considered to be proved:

http://www.dgsi.pt/jstj.nsf/954f0ce6ad9dd8b980256b5f003fa814/bfaf1cea93ab75fb8025716200388d89?OpenDocument&Highlight=0,cipriano

I am sorry john but that will not do.

If I didn't know you better, I would think you were trying to blind me with science.  To pull the wool over my eyes.  Why produce a Spanish/portuguese /Brazilian document with no internet address?  And in a foreign language.

This is a British forum, I am British and I am confronted with a huge document in a foreign language.

 If you claim that to be the document you have used, to say what you did on this thread, then the least you can do is to provide the webpage address.

Edited to add
Just for the record.   An enormous document was posted at about 1.50 am this morning and maybe nobody saw it except me, as it was removed early today ... in answer to my request for the source of information, a document of about 50,000 words was posted.  Not a single word of English in it, hence my indignation above.  Every word was in a foreign language, I believe Portuguese.

The document was http://www.dgsi.pt/jstj.nsf/954f0ce6ad9dd8b980256b5f003fa814/bfaf1cea93ab75fb8025716200388d89?OpenDocument&Highlight=0,cipriano


Thank you for posting the correct address now John, with an english speaking website

[John]

I hope this photograph will not be wiped and that the text will not be modified

Why would we want to remove the photos Sadie?

As for modifying text, this will only occur if there is a very good reason for doing so.  Examples being derogatory or abusive language, defamation or spelling errors.  Contrary to the bleatings of some former members, text has never been modified in such a way as to purposely alter the meaning of any post.

[John]

I am sorry john but that will not do.

If I didn't know you better, I would think you were trying to blind me with science.  To pull the wool over my eyes.  Why produce a Spanish/portuguese /Brazilian document with no internet address?  And in a foreign language.

This is a British forum, I am British and I am confronted with a huge document in a foreign language.

 If you claim that to be the document you have used, to say what you did on this thread, then the least you can do is to provide the webpage address.



Tbh,
It doesn't even seem to be about the Cipriano case at all.

This is the original document, the names of those involved have been given coded references.

Translation.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id176.html

http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/07/supreme-court-of-justice-joana-case.html

[sadie]

This is the original document, the names of those involved have been given coded references.

Please can we have the relevant part pointed out.  it is absurdly large to even attempt to google translate as it is.

How did you manage to translate it, John?

I would like the web address and also who wrote it please. as well as the relevant part

Thanks in anticipation

[Mrs. B]

In Spain and in summer, because it's very hot, people, not only children, had traditionally a siesta. With air conditioning this has changed.

In the South there's still pretty much siesta time every day of the week actually, between 2 pm & 5 pm.

[Mrs. B]

And btw, since when is 1 am considered too late for children to be up during fiesta time in the South of Europe? Last time I went to one was in April this year, plenty of kids of all ages around at 2 am when I walked home.

[Carana]

The context seems to be a sleepy village with a local, quite possibly noisy, fête on that night.

- Joana was sent on an errand to get milk and tuna at around 8pm. I haven't checked the time on any till receipt, if there was one.

- A neighbour saw her walking towards home and for some reason it seems to have been assumed that she did actually get back home.

- At around 9:30 pm, the brother went out and told Leandro and the other person that she was missing. No idea if this was considered immediately alarming or not. Apparently, they went home for confirmation, then went out searching for her.

- There were two other sleeping chlldren in their home.

- Leonor went to check with the shop herself later in the evening.

- The lady at the shop phoned the GNR, apparently because Leonor no longer had credit on her phone. Was Leonor's phone checked? If so, what did her phone reveal? If not, why not? When did her phone credit run out? Had she been phoning other people from home to check if anyone had seen her? Or was this never investigated?

[John]

The context seems to be a sleepy village with a local, quite possibly noisy, fête on that night.

- Joana was sent on an errand to get milk and tuna at around 8pm. I haven't checked the time on any till receipt, if there was one.

- A neighbour saw her walking towards home and for some reason it seems to have been assumed that she did actually get back home.

- At around 9:30 pm, the brother went out and told Leandro and the other person that she was missing. No idea if this was considered immediately alarming or not. Apparently, they went home for confirmation, then went out searching for her.

- There were two other sleeping chlldren in their home.

- Leonor went to check with the shop herself later in the evening.



- The lady at the shop phoned the GNR, apparently because Leonor no longer had credit on her phone. Was Leonor's phone checked? If so, what did her phone reveal? If not, why not? When did her phone credit run out? Had she been phoning other people from home to check if anyone had seen her? Or was this never investigated?

It does seem to be an odd excuse as she could have telephoned 112 free of charge.  Did the other adults also have no credit on their phone?   The GNR were in the village in any event so why not just go see them?i

[Carana]

It does seem to be an odd excuse as she could have telephoned 112 free of charge.  Did the other adults also have no credit on their phone?   The GNR were in the village in any event so why not just go see them?i

- Phoning 112 in 2004 in Portugal? Even today it's not a well-known number.

- Yes, she could have presumably got other people to phone the GNR. But don't forget that the context is a sleepy village with a fête.

Not everyone will immediately suspect that a chlld late home in a village with a fête in full swing had been abducted.

In the first few hours, it may have been checking whether she'd met up with other kids and was dancing around, been invited for a cola or whatever, as kids sometimes do.

[Eleanor]

This is so unfair.  Her family were out looking for the child. Why didn't one of them phone the police when they couldn't find her?  Why does it always have to be the mother crawling around distraught, on her hands and knees?
Or do you think Kate should have gone to The Ocean Club Reception to organize things?
Not that The GNR would have done much, judging from their reaction to The McCanns.

[icabodcrane]

This is the original document, the names of those involved have been given coded references.

Translation.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id176.html

http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/07/supreme-court-of-justice-joana-case.html

Thanks for that link

So Joana's uncle had already served a prison term for attemped murder and leaving someone blinded  ? 

I can't believe that some here are trying to present Joana's family as  'normal'  !   

[Carana]

This is so unfair.  Her family were out looking for the child. Why didn't one of them phone the police when they couldn't find her?  Why does it always have to be the mother crawling around distraught, on her hands and knees?
Or do you think Kate should have gone to The Ocean Club Reception to organize things?
Not that The GNR would have done much, judging from their reaction to The McCanns.

In the first hour or so in the context of a normally sleepy village with a local fête going on, people may have assumed that she'd got distracted and was likely to turn up home at any time. She didn't.

[Eleanor]

In the first hour or so in the context of a normally sleepy village with a local fête going on, people may have assumed that she'd got distracted and was likely to turn up home at any time. She didn't.

Of course they would have done.  Thousands of children do turn up.  And the advice is always to wait for a while.  No one automatically assumes that the child has been abducted unless there is some immediate evidence to this effect.
But why is it always the mother who is supposed to organize everything,  and do the searching while still seeing to any other children?
One might wonder what use men are.

[Carana]

Thanks for that link

So Joana's uncle had already served a prison term for attemped murder and leaving someone blinded  ? 

I can't believe that some here are trying to present Joana's family as  'normal'  !   

The brother does indeed seem to have a criminal record. And he was apparently staying at that home at the time.

That would seem to be a legitimate antenna-raising reason for the PJ to investigate.

But I'm less convinced about what happened to the child.