UK Justice Forum

Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Nora Quoirin (15) was an Irish-French teenage girl with special needs who disappeared on 4 Aug 2019 while on holiday with her parents in Malaysia. => Topic started by: carlymichelle on January 04, 2021, 07:21:38 AM

Title: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: carlymichelle on January 04, 2021, 07:21:38 AM
https://news.sky.com/story/death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others-12177184?fbclid=IwAR0Nk-TLqpMzkAeKR36jbrxi42NMfA_FmxvjR54ixIk-8zwQJ6spQRVBt7s


Reading her verdict to a virtual hearing watched by Nora's parents, coroner Maimoonah Aid said: "After hearing all the relevant evidence, I rule that there was no one involved in the death of Nora and it is more probable than not that she died by misadventure i.e. she had gone out of the Sora House on her own and subsequently got lost in the abandoned palm oil plantations."
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Wonderfulspam on January 04, 2021, 12:08:14 PM


I wonder if Nora's parents are still trying to blame the Dusun resort for a faulty window lock.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: The General on January 04, 2021, 12:28:28 PM

I wonder if Nora's parents are still trying to blame the Dusun resort for a faulty window lock.
Makes you wonder how she was transported in to the jungle unaided, given that she was apparently encumbered with infirmity.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Wonderfulspam on January 04, 2021, 12:35:37 PM
Makes you wonder how she was transported in to the jungle unaided, given that she was apparently encumbered with infirmity.

I think her parents are over egging her disability.

There are pictures of her standing unaided & obviously she could walk, they didn't push her round in a wheelchair.

The family went for a walk together that evening.

I notice in the article...

"During the night both Meabh, who is Irish and Nora's French father, Sebastien, said they heard "muffled whispering" inside the house but were half asleep so didn't investigate further."

This is the first time I've seen this claimed & so I think they are talking shit.

They just don't want to accept that their daughter was excited to be in a new & stimulating environment & was eager to explore it.
 
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Lace on January 04, 2021, 12:39:11 PM
I think her parents are over egging her disability.

There are pictures of her standing unaided & obviously she could walk, they didn't push her round in a wheelchair.

The family went for a walk together that evening.

I notice in the article...

"During the night both Meabh, who is Irish and Nora's French father, Sebastien, said they heard "muffled whispering" inside the house but were half asleep so didn't investigate further."

This is the first time I've seen this claimed & so I think they are talking shit.

They just don't want to accept that their daughter was excited to be in a new & stimulating environment & was eager to explore it.


Didn't they say there were no marks on the bottom of her feet?    I find it unimaginable that she spent all that time wandering around the Jungle and there were no marks on her feet.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Wonderfulspam on January 04, 2021, 12:41:06 PM

I just found this from November,

"During an inquest into her daughter's death, Meabh Quoirin said she heard "muffled and whispering" sounds of two people inside the family's cottage on the morning of Nora's disappearance, but said she was too asleep to be able to take action at the time."


I'm calling bullshit.

If you heard people inside your building at night you'd get up & investigate.

Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Wonderfulspam on January 04, 2021, 12:47:19 PM

Didn't they say there were no marks on the bottom of her feet?    I find it unimaginable that she spent all that time wandering around the Jungle and there were no marks on her feet.

Her feet were dirty but not damaged.

I don't think it impossible she didn't tread on anything sharp.

Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Lace on January 04, 2021, 12:49:16 PM
Her feet were dirty but not damaged.

I don't think it impossible she didn't tread on anything sharp.

Yet they say the scratches on her body proved she walked through dense jungle,  I find it very strange,
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: jassi on January 04, 2021, 12:50:57 PM
Yet they say the scratches on her body proved she walked through dense jungle, I find it very strange,


So will you do anything about it, or just tuck it away in your mind as 'strange' ?
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Wonderfulspam on January 04, 2021, 12:54:11 PM

The alternative is that someone abducted her in order to neither demand a ransom, sexually assault or harm her in any way, only to leave her alive in the jungle for some reason.

I'm seriously struggling to think of any reason.

Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Lace on January 04, 2021, 12:54:28 PM

So will you do anything about it, or just tuck it away in your mind as 'strange' ?

Can you tell me what I could do about it?    I am just someone debating the case on this forum the same as you.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Lace on January 04, 2021, 12:56:12 PM
The alternative is that someone abducted her in order to neither demand a ransom, sexually assault or harm her in any way, only to leave her alive in the jungle for some reason.

I'm seriously struggling to think of any reason.


The Pathologist said they couldn't rule out sexual assault as the body was too decomposed.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Wonderfulspam on January 04, 2021, 12:58:50 PM

The Pathologist said they couldn't rule out sexual assault as the body was too decomposed.

I don't think that in the absence of evidence of sexual assault we should assume sexual assault.



Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Lace on January 04, 2021, 01:00:46 PM
Poor parents will never know what happened to their daughter.   
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Wonderfulspam on January 04, 2021, 01:01:38 PM
Poor parents will never know what happened to their daughter.

She died of stomach ulcer & starvation.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: jassi on January 04, 2021, 01:08:59 PM
She died of stomach ulcer & starvation.

Verdict Misadventure.  No crime committed.

If parents won't accept that, then that is their problem.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Wonderfulspam on January 04, 2021, 01:13:16 PM
Verdict Misadventure.  No crime committed.

If parents won't accept that, then that is their problem.

It's also the problem of the Dusun resort, since the family are attempting to sue them for having no security & a faulty window lock.

Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 04, 2021, 01:15:26 PM

So will you do anything about it, or just tuck it away in your mind as 'strange' ?
What do you suggest Lace does about it?
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Wonderfulspam on January 04, 2021, 01:16:16 PM
What do you suggest Lace does about it?

Get Sadie to investigate?
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: jassi on January 04, 2021, 01:16:22 PM
It's also the problem of the Dusun resort, since the family are attempting to sue them for having no security & a faulty window lock.

You mean for a useful bit of compensation ?  8(0(*
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 04, 2021, 01:19:04 PM
Her feet were dirty but not damaged.

I don't think it impossible she didn't tread on anything sharp.
Personally and speaking from experience I would think it impossible to spend a week barefoot in jungle terrain and not receive cuts and bites to your feet. 
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Wonderfulspam on January 04, 2021, 01:22:57 PM
Personally and speaking from experience I would think it impossible to spend a week barefoot in jungle terrain and not receive cuts and bites to your feet.

So you're going with 'the abduction for no specific reason' scenario.

I don't blame you, they tend to happen quite frequently.

Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 04, 2021, 01:26:48 PM
So you're going with 'the abduction for no specific reason' scenario.

I don't blame you, they tend to happen quite frequently.
Unlike you who always claims to know exactly what happened in all these cases from the first minute they are reported, I don't claim to know what happened at all.  I have no hard and fast opinion, but I do think there are many unanswered questions in this case.  I also think blaming the parents (your speciality), and posting nasty callous observations about them and their daughter, her disabilities etc is seriously unpleasant but I would expect nothing else from you, and some of your fellow sceptics.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Lace on January 04, 2021, 01:28:38 PM
Personally and speaking from experience I would think it impossible to spend a week barefoot in jungle terrain and not receive cuts and bites to your feet.


Try walking through a rainforest in Thailand,  Leeches,  huge ants all sorts.   She was lucky she didn't come upon a snake or a spider.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: jassi on January 04, 2021, 01:33:17 PM

Try walking through a rainforest in Thailand,  Leeches,  huge ants all sorts.  She was lucky she didn't come upon a snake or a spider.

Why, would that have killed her ?  She died anyway.

 
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Wonderfulspam on January 04, 2021, 01:34:03 PM
Unlike you who always claims to know exactly what happened in all these cases from the first minute they are reported, I don't claim to know what happened at all.  I have no hard and fast opinion, but I do think there are many unanswered questions in this case.  I also think blaming the parents (your speciality), and posting nasty callous observations about them and their daughter, her disabilities etc is seriously unpleasant but I would expect nothing else from you, and some of your fellow sceptics.

Well, I believe I'm entitled to my own opinions regardless of how nasty, callous or seriously unpleasant you may feel they are.

I don't think they are, & am under no obligation to care about anyone's feelings.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Davel on January 04, 2021, 03:24:14 PM
It's not very kind or compassionate of the parents to sue the resort in my opinion.

It may be a way of getting answers to questions.
The family of OJs wife sued him
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 04, 2021, 03:26:18 PM
It's not very kind or compassionate of the parents to sue the resort in my opinion.
This is just deflective whataboutery, the fact that you would equate legal action taken against a potentially negligent resort with the callous and unkind online comments about a dead disabled child and her parents.   If the legal action  is successful then that is because the resort will have been found to be negligent in some way - do you not think that companies that have a duty of care to their clients should be punished if they are found to have failed in some way?
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: The General on January 04, 2021, 03:33:36 PM
This is just deflective whataboutery, the fact that you would equate legal action taken against a potentially negligent resort with the callous and unkind online comments about a dead disabled child and her parents.   If the legal action  is successful then that is because the resort will have been found to be negligent in some way - do you not think that companies that have a duty of care to their clients should be punished if they are found to have failed in some way?
Only if they had failed in a grossly negligent way.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Wonderfulspam on January 04, 2021, 03:34:54 PM
This is just deflective whataboutery, the fact that you would equate legal action taken against a potentially negligent resort with the callous and unkind online comments about a dead disabled child and her parents.   If the legal action  is successful then that is because the resort will have been found to be negligent in some way - do you not think that companies that have a duty of care to their clients should be punished if they are found to have failed in some way?

How many other people died over the years that they've been open as a result of their lack of security guards & a poor attention to window latch maintenance?

None?

Well, that obviously wasn't the problem then.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 04, 2021, 03:49:33 PM
How many other people died over the years that they've been open as a result of their lack of security guards & a poor attention to window latch maintenance?

None?

Well, that obviously wasn't the problem then.
It doesn't work like that.  How many people in the UK died in a tower block fire as a result of the cladding used on Grenfell prior to that tragedy?  How many children died as a result of a faulty boiler at the Thomas Cook resort prior to the deaths of two young children in Corfu?  I do wish you'd grow up, though I now realise you do have mental problems which may make this impossible, so you have my sympathies.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: jassi on January 04, 2021, 05:03:42 PM
I fancy this would be considered goading if aimed towards Sadie.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Eleanor on January 04, 2021, 05:07:59 PM
I fancy this would be considered goading if aimed towards Sadie and her mental issues.

Okay, Fine.  I shall look more carefully at Spammy's Comments from now on.  So far I have tried not to take them too seriously, but they are all Goading.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: jassi on January 04, 2021, 05:13:27 PM
Okay, Fine.  I shall look more carefully at Spammy's Comments from now on.  So far I have tried not to take them too seriously, but they are all Goading.

First take the plank out of your own eye - or at least that of VS.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Eleanor on January 04, 2021, 05:16:41 PM
First take the plank out of your own eye - or at least that of VS.

Careful.  This Thread is a waste of space on The McCann Forum.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Brietta on January 04, 2021, 05:29:49 PM
Careful.  This Thread is a waste of space on The McCann Forum.

I think the thread is endeavouring to have the effect it was designed to achieve and failing miserably.  I cannot tell you how hilarious I am finding the efforts of our self acclaimed wind up merchant to fail miserably as it winds only itself up to more and more "outrageous" outrageousness.
NOBODY bothers any more ~ not even deleting the ordure which has become so boringly twee.  It is just so ineffectual is it even worth the bother?  although I might be forced into it just to spare the blushes of a wum which has most definitely shot its bolt😜
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Brietta on January 04, 2021, 05:36:16 PM
First take the plank out of your own eye - or at least that of VS.

I don't have even the splinter of a plank in my eye to prevent me from seeing how inappropriate it is to make any sort of capital out of ridiculing the family of a vulnerable and much loved child who met her death in horrible circumstances.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Eleanor on January 04, 2021, 05:41:03 PM
I think the thread is endeavouring to have the effect it was designed to achieve and failing miserably.  I cannot tell you how hilarious I am finding the efforts of our self acclaimed wind up merchant to fail miserably as it winds only itself up to more and more "outrageous" outrageousness.
NOBODY bothers any more ~ not even deleting the ordure which has become so boringly twee.  It is just so ineffectual is it even worth the bother?  although I might be forced into it just to spare the blushes of a wum which has most definitely shot its bolt😜

My thoughts also.  Spammy will cease this perpetual rubbish, or else.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Angelo222 on January 04, 2021, 05:46:33 PM
Verdict Misadventure.  No crime committed.

If parents won't accept that, then that is their problem.

They won't accept it because like the McCanns, they were responsible for the child and failed her.  They're lucky not be pursued for child neglect.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 04, 2021, 05:50:01 PM
They won't accept it because like the McCanns, they were responsible for the child and failed her.  They're lucky not be pursued for child neglect.
One can always rely on Angelo to add to the suffering of grieving parents.  So if you fall asleep in the same house as your child and he or she goes missing that’s child neglect now is it?
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Eleanor on January 04, 2021, 05:51:18 PM
One can always rely on Angelo to add to the suffering of grieving parents.  So if you fall asleep in the same house as your child and he or she goes missing that’s child neglect now is it?

That was obviously the next step for some.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Angelo222 on January 04, 2021, 05:54:41 PM
One can always rely on Angelo to add to the suffering of grieving parents.  So if you fall asleep in the same house as your child and he or she goes missing that’s child neglect now is it?

A child with severe learning difficulties in a third world country and she is allowed to wander off at night... unbelievably irresponsible in anyone's book. I'm not surprised they have attempted to shift the blame from day one.

Attempting to blame the resort and suing them was low and despicable imo.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Brietta on January 04, 2021, 05:55:26 PM
They won't accept it because like the McCanns, they were responsible for the child and failed her.  They're lucky not be pursued for child neglect.

Yup ... hate repeating myself ... but that is exactly the sort of post the originator of the thread was looking for. 
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Angelo222 on January 04, 2021, 06:01:10 PM
Yup ... hate repeating myself ... but that is exactly the sort of post the originator of the thread was looking for.

Yup...she was right. I was intending to start one but she beat me to the draw. It will have to be moved to another board.

By the way Brietta, do you not hold the parents responsible?
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Eleanor on January 04, 2021, 06:03:30 PM
Yup...she was right. I was intending to start one but she beat me to the draw. It will have to be moved to another board.

Good Idea.  And then only The Obsessed need bother with it.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 04, 2021, 06:09:23 PM
A child with severe learning difficulties in a third world country and she is allowed to wander off at night... unbelievably irresponsible in anyone's book. I'm not surprised they have attempted to shift the blame from day one.

Attempting to blame the resort and suing them was low and despicable imo.
Malaysia is not a third world country, but it does have its share of people with severe physical and learning difficulties like all countries.  Should their parents chain them to their beds do you think?  In what way do you think the Quoirins facilitated their daughter’s wandering off into the night?  By not locking her up in an institution in Britain perhaps?
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 04, 2021, 06:30:34 PM
Careful.  This Thread is a waste of space on The McCann Forum.
Gives us something to do until HCW speaks up.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Eleanor on January 04, 2021, 06:32:51 PM
Gives us something to do until HCW speaks up.

Slagging Off The Parents of Another Missing Child.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: jassi on January 04, 2021, 06:34:05 PM
Gives us something to do until HCW speaks up.
I don' think this thread will last that long
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 04, 2021, 07:26:17 PM
PRESS RELEASE - NÓRA QUOIRIN – FAMILY RESPOND TO INQUEST VERDICT

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

The family of Nóra Quoirin, whose body was tragically found in Malaysia after disappearing from the family holiday resort in August 2019, today released the following statement after the Malaysian Coroner delivered their verdict.

They said;

Today is a significant day in the fight for justice for our beloved Nóra. Our legal team has worked tirelessly, against all odds, to bring the truth to light in a case previously declared as NFA (no further action).
We have fought for this Inquest because while the medical cause of Nóra’s death was never in question, it was crucial to establish, insofar as is possible, how Nóra came about her death. We wanted to truly understand the full extent of Malaysian police SAR & criminal missions but also to ensure Nóra’s story was fully expressed.

We wish to communicate that our lawyers asked the Coroner to return an Open Verdict. For clarity – this is “a verdict in its own right, indicating that the evidence is insufficient to satisfy any other conclusions. { } In other cases there may be a suspicion that foul play is involved but no proof to the required level.”

We still believe this is the only appropriate verdict because, throughout the testimonies presented in this case, layers of (professional) evidence have confirmed what we always believed – that Nóra was abducted. These layers include:

-an opened window, with unidentified foreign prints found on the outside, that has not and cannot be, explained by any other means. As we have repeatedly (ourselves, and professionals who knew Nóra intimately) testified – Nóra had neither the cognitive, nor physical means to leave our chalet by the window
 
-hundreds of volunteers and significant numbers of highly trained personnel searched relentlessly the surrounding area, including where Nóra was found, on the day of or immediately preceding the day of her death. They found no signs of human life

-professionally trained canines were unable to follow Nóra’s scent

-there is much lost DNA evidence including that which was due to the time lapse between Nóra’s death and her being found, her exposure to the elements and the fact that she was found in water

-there remains the possibility of sexual assault (excepting violent assault)

-Nóra’s highly submissive nature rules out any signs of a struggle

-the lack of major physical damage to Nóra’s body despite her inability to handle terrain as complex as the Seremban jungle and, as a related point, Nóra’s total fear of leaving any familiar adult or surroundings

In any major case of conscience, such as this, there always comes a point when it is important to do what is right, not what is easy. We have always recognised that there was no physical evidence to aid our Inquest. Nonetheless, we are utterly disappointed by the Coroner’s verdict of misadventure. We witnessed 80 slides presented to the court today, none of which engaged with who Nóra really was – neither her personality nor her intellectual abilities. The verdict focused exclusively on physical evidence and physical mobility – which we believe, presents a very incomplete/select theory on how Nóra came about her death.
The Coroner made mention several times of her inability to rule on certain points due to not knowing Nóra enough. It is indeed our view that to know Nóra would be to know that she was simply incapable of hiding in undergrowth, climbing out a window and/or making her way out of a fenced resort in the darkness unclothed (all of which were presented today as probable theory).
Once again we see that justice struggles to support the most vulnerable in society – only engaging with special needs at a surface level – and not at the level that truly reflects children like Nóra. 

We believe we have fought not just for Nóra but in honour of all the special needs children in this world who deserve our most committed support and the most careful application of justice. This is Nóra’s unique legacy and we will never let it go.”
 

The charity for British nationals in crisis overseas, LBT Global, has been supporting the family since Nóra’s disappearance and continues to do so. The charity’s Chief Executive, Matthew Searle MBE, said;

“This is a hugely disappointing day for the family. It is clear that Nóra could not have physically carried out the movements suggested. It is crucial that to deliver a comprehensive verdict the coroner would have to have fully taken into account Nora’s condition – that they did so is not immediately apparent. We will support the family tirelessly as they move forward.”

 
ENDS
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: jassi on January 04, 2021, 07:36:55 PM
PRESS RELEASE - NÓRA QUOIRIN – FAMILY RESPOND TO INQUEST VERDICT

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

The family of Nóra Quoirin, whose body was tragically found in Malaysia after disappearing from the family holiday resort in August 2019, today released the following statement after the Malaysian Coroner delivered their verdict.

They said;

Today is a significant day in the fight for justice for our beloved Nóra. Our legal team has worked tirelessly, against all odds, to bring the truth to light in a case previously declared as NFA (no further action).
We have fought for this Inquest because while the medical cause of Nóra’s death was never in question, it was crucial to establish, insofar as is possible, how Nóra came about her death. We wanted to truly understand the full extent of Malaysian police SAR & criminal missions but also to ensure Nóra’s story was fully expressed.

We wish to communicate that our lawyers asked the Coroner to return an Open Verdict. For clarity – this is “a verdict in its own right, indicating that the evidence is insufficient to satisfy any other conclusions. { } In other cases there may be a suspicion that foul play is involved but no proof to the required level.”

We still believe this is the only appropriate verdict because, throughout the testimonies presented in this case, layers of (professional) evidence have confirmed what we always believed – that Nóra was abducted. These layers include:

-an opened window, with unidentified foreign prints found on the outside, that has not and cannot be, explained by any other means. As we have repeatedly (ourselves, and professionals who knew Nóra intimately) testified – Nóra had neither the cognitive, nor physical means to leave our chalet by the window
 
-hundreds of volunteers and significant numbers of highly trained personnel searched relentlessly the surrounding area, including where Nóra was found, on the day of or immediately preceding the day of her death. They found no signs of human life

-professionally trained canines were unable to follow Nóra’s scent

-there is much lost DNA evidence including that which was due to the time lapse between Nóra’s death and her being found, her exposure to the elements and the fact that she was found in water

-there remains the possibility of sexual assault (excepting violent assault)

-Nóra’s highly submissive nature rules out any signs of a struggle

-the lack of major physical damage to Nóra’s body despite her inability to handle terrain as complex as the Seremban jungle and, as a related point, Nóra’s total fear of leaving any familiar adult or surroundings

In any major case of conscience, such as this, there always comes a point when it is important to do what is right, not what is easy. We have always recognised that there was no physical evidence to aid our Inquest. Nonetheless, we are utterly disappointed by the Coroner’s verdict of misadventure. We witnessed 80 slides presented to the court today, none of which engaged with who Nóra really was – neither her personality nor her intellectual abilities. The verdict focused exclusively on physical evidence and physical mobility – which we believe, presents a very incomplete/select theory on how Nóra came about her death.
The Coroner made mention several times of her inability to rule on certain points due to not knowing Nóra enough. It is indeed our view that to know Nóra would be to know that she was simply incapable of hiding in undergrowth, climbing out a window and/or making her way out of a fenced resort in the darkness unclothed (all of which were presented today as probable theory).
Once again we see that justice struggles to support the most vulnerable in society – only engaging with special needs at a surface level – and not at the level that truly reflects children like Nóra. 

We believe we have fought not just for Nóra but in honour of all the special needs children in this world who deserve our most committed support and the most careful application of justice. This is Nóra’s unique legacy and we will never let it go.”
 

The charity for British nationals in crisis overseas, LBT Global, has been supporting the family since Nóra’s disappearance and continues to do so. The charity’s Chief Executive, Matthew Searle MBE, said;

“This is a hugely disappointing day for the family. It is clear that Nóra could not have physically carried out the movements suggested. It is crucial that to deliver a comprehensive verdict the coroner would have to have fully taken into account Nora’s condition – that they did so is not immediately apparent. We will support the family tirelessly as they move forward.”

 
ENDS

Obviously not clear to the Coroner who delivered the judgement.

LBT Global did not know Nora so their opinion is just that- opinion.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Angelo222 on January 04, 2021, 07:50:33 PM
Malaysia is not a third world country, but it does have its share of people with severe physical and learning difficulties like all countries.  Should their parents chain them to their beds do you think?  In what way do you think the Quoirins facilitated their daughter’s wandering off into the night?  By not locking her up in an institution in Britain perhaps?

At least she would still be alive now
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Angelo222 on January 04, 2021, 07:53:57 PM
Obviously not clear to the Coroner who delivered the judgement.

LBT Global did not know Nora so their opinion is just that- opinion.

I agree, another load of bollocks. The parents downplayed Nora's abilities and that is suspicion in itself imo.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Brietta on January 04, 2021, 08:11:37 PM
I agree, another load of bollocks. The parents downplayed Nora's abilities and that is suspicion in itself imo.

Your post quite obviously reflects that you have had the very good fortune never to have had to love, care and worry for a severely disabled child so are in blissful ignorant of what that entails.

Nora's family do not deserve your unkindness and what I think skims very close to libelling them.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Eleanor on January 04, 2021, 08:21:57 PM

Heaven forbid that parents should attempt to love and care for their own disabled children.  It shouldn't be allowed.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Angelo222 on January 04, 2021, 08:32:37 PM
Your post quite obviously reflects that you have had the very good fortune never to have had to love, care and worry for a severely disabled child so are in blissful ignorant of what that entails.

Nora's family do not deserve your unkindness and what I think skims very close to libelling them.

The whole thing stinks to high heaven imo and now they won't even accept the coroner's verdict.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Angelo222 on January 04, 2021, 08:35:09 PM
Your post quite obviously reflects that you have had the very good fortune never to have had to love, care and worry for a severely disabled child so are in blissful ignorant of what that entails.

Nora's family do not deserve your unkindness and what I think skims very close to libelling them.

Why claim that Nora couldn't walk unassisted when it is patently nonsense?  The coroner stated that she went out of her own volition and I tend to believe her. You can believe whatever you like.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: carlymichelle on January 04, 2021, 08:35:31 PM
The whole thing stinks to high heaven imo and now they won't even accept the coroner's verdict.

in asia  they dont messs around with the law this is OT  but if  caught with  drugs in asia you  can get the death penetly even pot  etc
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Brietta on January 04, 2021, 08:39:24 PM
Heaven forbid that parents should attempt to love and care for their own disabled children.  It shouldn't be allowed.

The hateful discrimination this thread has opened is shocking.

Nora's parents endeavoured to give their profoundly disabled daughter as normal and happy a life as they possibly could.

That involved her sharing family life including holidays ~ the fact that she was obviously able to do so is testament what a wonderful job the family had devoted to that inclusiveness.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Eleanor on January 04, 2021, 08:52:35 PM
in asia  they dont messs around with the law this is OT  but if  caught with  drugs in asia you  can get the death penetly even pot  etc

Also Rape and murder Cases are on the rise in Malaysia.  And with The Death Penalty.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Angelo222 on January 04, 2021, 09:07:41 PM
The hateful discrimination this thread has opened is shocking.

Nora's parents endeavoured to give their profoundly disabled daughter as normal and happy a life as they possibly could.

That involved her sharing family life including holidays ~ the fact that she was obviously able to do so is testament what a wonderful job the family had devoted to that inclusiveness.

You do know the mother didn't even travel to Malaysia with Nora?
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 04, 2021, 09:11:39 PM
Obviously not clear to the Coroner who delivered the judgement.

LBT Global did not know Nora so their opinion is just that- opinion.
Their opinion is based on what her parents said, does that count for nothing?
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 04, 2021, 09:12:41 PM
At least she would still be alive now
What sort of life is permanent incarceration  in an institution?
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 04, 2021, 09:13:54 PM
I agree, another load of bollocks. The parents downplayed Nora's abilities and that is suspicion in itself imo.
How do you know they downplayed her abilities?  If they lied then this would be known by all Nora’s family, friends, teachers, doctors etc.  Do you REALLY think her parents would be that stupid?
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 04, 2021, 09:14:51 PM
You do know the mother didn't even travel to Malaysia with Nora?
So what?
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Eleanor on January 04, 2021, 09:24:00 PM
You do know the mother didn't even travel to Malaysia with Nora?

Do tell.  What did she do?  Stuff Nora in a suitcase?
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Wonderfulspam on January 04, 2021, 09:45:28 PM

How do you know they downplayed her abilities?  If they lied then this would be known by all Nora’s family, friends, teachers, doctors etc.  Do you REALLY think her parents would be that stupid?

Her parents told the police she could walk no more than 20 feet without assistance from another person, due to problems with her balance.

& Yet......

Superintendenent Besar told the inquest: “Based on footage of the family’s arrival at KLIA, if I am not mistaken, they could be seen heading towards a particular location together to wait for someone to arrive (to pick them up).

“In the footage, the missing person could be seen walking normally with her luggage like anyone of her age”.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/12504238/nora-quoirin-cctv-walking-death-jungle-inquest-alive-search/
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 04, 2021, 09:50:10 PM
Her parents told the police she could walk no more than 20 feet without assistance from another person, due to problems with her balance.

& Yet......

Superintendenent Besar told the inquest: “Based on footage of the family’s arrival at KLIA, if I am not mistaken, they could be seen heading towards a particular location together to wait for someone to arrive (to pick them up).

“In the footage, the missing person could be seen walking normally with her luggage like anyone of her age”.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/12504238/nora-quoirin-cctv-walking-death-jungle-inquest-alive-search/
Perhaps she used her luggage (if it was a wheelie case) as a walking / balancing aid?
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Eleanor on January 04, 2021, 09:55:19 PM
Perhaps she used her luggage (if it was a wheelie case) as a walking / balancing aid?

Yep.  It's amazing.  I can't walk very far these days but I can fairly zip around for ages pushing a Lawn Mower.  Which is why I like cutting grass.

This is basically very simple.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Wonderfulspam on January 04, 2021, 10:01:54 PM
Perhaps she used her luggage (if it was a wheelie case) as a walking / balancing aid?

There's no mention anywhere of her ever using walking sticks, a walker or a wheelchair.

Maybe she used to take a luggage trolley with her everywhere she went.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 04, 2021, 10:04:08 PM
There's no mention anywhere of her ever using walking sticks, a walker or a wheelchair.

Maybe she used to take a luggage trolley with her everywhere she went.
So the parents are bare-faced liars and all Nora’s family, friends, teachers, therapists and doctors are complicit in the lie, through their silence?  Wow.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: G-Unit on January 04, 2021, 10:05:10 PM
"Soon after they arrived on Aug 3, Nora Anne went on a walkabout towards the deer enclosure and returned informing her mother she was attracted to the animals.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/stranger-approached-nora-quoirin-family-22586180

So she walked from Sora House to the deer enclosure, however far that was.

(https://thedusun.com.my/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/FA_DusunMap_v3_170531-copy.jpg)
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Wonderfulspam on January 04, 2021, 10:09:13 PM
"Soon after they arrived on Aug 3, Nora Anne went on a walkabout towards the deer enclosure and returned informing her mother she was attracted to the animals.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/stranger-approached-nora-quoirin-family-22586180

So she walked from Sora House to the deer enclosure, however far that was.

(https://thedusun.com.my/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/FA_DusunMap_v3_170531-copy.jpg)

Where are our google earth experts?
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 04, 2021, 10:13:47 PM


“Meabh insisted that had Nóra wandered outside she would have frozen on the spot and waited, adding that the teenager had difficulty walking unassisted due to weak core strength and she would tire easily.

These statements were endorsed by Michael Reeves, the head teacher of Nóra's school in Balham, south London, who said the 15-year-old would not have had the confidence to walk off on her own.

He said: "Physically she was one of the most vulnerable pupils in the school, because of her balance issues.

Nóra's gait was quite fragile. She really didn't have the confidence to walk off by herself.


The idea of Nóra climbing over fencing is unimaginable. She might have climbed over something a foot or so high, but no more than that."




Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Wonderfulspam on January 04, 2021, 10:24:17 PM

“Meabh insisted that had Nóra wandered outside she would have frozen on the spot and waited, adding that the teenager had difficulty walking unassisted due to weak core strength and she would tire easily.

These statements were endorsed by Michael Reeves, the head teacher of Nóra's school in Balham, south London, who said the 15-year-old would not have had the confidence to walk off on her own.

He said: "Physically she was one of the most vulnerable pupils in the school, because of her balance issues.

Nóra's gait was quite fragile. She really didn't have the confidence to walk off by herself.


The idea of Nóra climbing over fencing is unimaginable. She might have climbed over something a foot or so high, but no more than that."

Nora clearly had some doubters, but I think she proved she could overcome many obstacles.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 04, 2021, 10:51:05 PM
Nora clearly had some doubters, but I think she proved she could overcome many obstacles.
It is of course quite possible that her family, friends and teachers were not to know exactly how much ground a child with Nora’s disabilities could cover with adrenalin and fear pumping through her viens.  It was an extraordinary situation that she would never have been in before.  I do think sympathy and understanding are called for, rather than judgey admonishments of grieving parents and sly pisstakes at the expense of a dead disabled child.  Of course you would disagree as that’s how you get your kicks.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Brietta on January 05, 2021, 12:29:06 AM
"Soon after they arrived on Aug 3, Nora Anne went on a walkabout towards the deer enclosure and returned informing her mother she was attracted to the animals.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/stranger-approached-nora-quoirin-family-22586180

So she walked from Sora House to the deer enclosure, however far that was.

(https://thedusun.com.my/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/FA_DusunMap_v3_170531-copy.jpg)

Nora was born with the brain disorder holoprosencephaly ~ a big word for a rare congenital brain malformation; I am sure Nora's parents and medical practitioners have a far clearer picture of exactly how her condition affected her daily life than an internet critic and armchair detective.
Nora and her family were the ones living and coping with it on a daily basis.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Angelo222 on January 05, 2021, 01:49:33 AM
Do tell.  What did she do?  Stuff Nora in a suitcase?

I think you need to read up on some background to this case Eleanor. The mother flew to the resort on her own from another country.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Angelo222 on January 05, 2021, 01:51:14 AM
Perhaps she used her luggage (if it was a wheelie case) as a walking / balancing aid?

Always the excuse eh? 🙄
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Angelo222 on January 05, 2021, 01:52:58 AM
So the parents are bare-faced liars and all Nora’s family, friends, teachers, therapists and doctors are complicit in the lie, through their silence?  Wow.

The coroner would have had all this information before her yet she still returned the cause of death as misadventure.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Angelo222 on January 05, 2021, 01:56:33 AM
Nora was born with the brain disorder holoprosencephaly ~ a big word for a rare congenital brain malformation; I am sure Nora's parents and medical practitioners have a far clearer picture of exactly how her condition affected her daily life than an internet critic and armchair detective.
Nora and her family were the ones living and coping with it on a daily basis.

Not true. I think you'll find the reality was somewhat different.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 05, 2021, 07:21:29 AM
Always the excuse eh? 🙄
Why is that an excuse? It is a possible explanation.  Why are you so utterly determined to trash the girl’s parents?  What satisfaction do you derive frommdoing so?
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 05, 2021, 07:22:18 AM
The coroner would have had all this information before her yet she still returned the cause of death as misadventure.
Then they clearly chose to ignore the views of her family and her teacher, the people best placed to comment on her disability.  For someone who moderates the Miscarriage of Justice Forum you don’t half unquestioningly defer to those in judicial authority (but only if they are foreign it seems).  Odd, IMO.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Davel on January 05, 2021, 08:11:16 AM
It will be interesting to see what ..if anything...happens next in this case.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Myster on January 05, 2021, 08:26:17 AM
I think you need to read up on some background to this case Eleanor. The mother flew to the resort on her own from another country.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yk2n4bWdFqw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yk2n4bWdFqw)
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 05, 2021, 09:37:02 AM
Perhaps someone called explain how her body could have been overlooked in the area that had already been (allegedly) thoroughly searched, how it appeared the day after the reward was announced, and how it was also too decomposed for them to ascertain whether or not she had been sexually abused?  Were they unable to determine how long she had been lying there? 
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Eleanor on January 05, 2021, 09:49:57 AM
I think you need to read up on some background to this case Eleanor. The mother flew to the resort on her own from another country.

No Thanks.  I am not obsessed enough.  And this Thread shouldn't be here.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Davel on January 05, 2021, 10:00:09 AM
The ruling by the coroner is if course opinion not fact
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: The General on January 05, 2021, 10:01:39 AM
The ruling by the coroner is if course opinion not fact
It's now a legal fact.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 05, 2021, 10:02:29 AM
The ruling by the coroner is if course opinion not fact
As verified by the words used, "likely misadventure", "can't rule out sexual assault" etc.  I think there were good grounds to record an open verdict, but that is of course just my entirely worthless opinion.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Davel on January 05, 2021, 10:07:45 AM
It's now a legal fact.

Legal fact s can be subject to change
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: jassi on January 05, 2021, 10:11:27 AM
Perhaps if sufficient fresh evidence can be forthcoming, the verdict can be changed.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Eleanor on January 05, 2021, 10:22:10 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yk2n4bWdFqw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yk2n4bWdFqw)

What is this supposed to tell me?
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: The General on January 05, 2021, 10:22:39 AM
Legal fact s can be subject to change
Agreed. But it's now not an opinion as it stands, as you stated, it's a legal fact.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Davel on January 05, 2021, 10:35:15 AM
Agreed. But it's now not an opinion as it stands, as you stated, it's a legal fact.

A legal fact doesn't make it a fact...it's an opinion
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 05, 2021, 10:35:31 AM
Agreed. But it's now not an opinion as it stands, as you stated, it's a legal fact.
So legally speaking what factually happened to Nora Quoirin?
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Wonderfulspam on January 05, 2021, 10:45:22 AM
A legal fact doesn't make it a fact...it's an opinion

It's only an opinion Brueckner raped anyone.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: The General on January 05, 2021, 10:48:18 AM
So legally speaking what factually happened to Nora Quoirin?
Whatever the coroner stated as the verdict.
If new information comes to light, then that could be reviewed.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: The General on January 05, 2021, 10:55:42 AM
A legal fact doesn't make it a fact...it's an opinion
Yes it does. It's fact. Even better than that, it's legally accepted.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Eleanor on January 05, 2021, 10:56:44 AM
Whatever the coroner stated as the verdict.
If new information comes to light, then that could be reviewed.

Not very definite was she.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 05, 2021, 10:57:01 AM
Whatever the coroner stated as the verdict.
If new information comes to light, then that could be reviewed.
The coroner stated that the verdict was "most likely misadventure" - that doesn't sound like a fact to me.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: The General on January 05, 2021, 10:59:23 AM
The coroner stated that the verdict was "most likely misadventure" - that doesn't sound like a fact to me.
It's a verdict. Misadventure; one of several options open to him to deliver.
End of. Fact.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Davel on January 05, 2021, 10:59:42 AM
Yes it does. It's fact. Even better than that, it's legally accepted.

Being a legal fact doesn't make it a fact
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 05, 2021, 11:03:30 AM
It's a verdict. Misadventure; one of several options open to him to deliver.
End of. Fact.
Most likely.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Eleanor on January 05, 2021, 11:03:40 AM
It's a verdict. Misadventure; one of several options open to him to deliver.
End of. Fact.

Her.  Fact.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: The General on January 05, 2021, 11:03:57 AM
Being a legal fact doesn't make it a fact
Really? Maybe you should petition the judiciary to update their historical purview and statutes to align with your skewed outlook.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: The General on January 05, 2021, 11:10:31 AM
Most likely.
That's the coroner's job, to determine which of the options is most applicable, by weighing which is most likely given the evidence. Once that pronouncement is made, then it becomes a legal fact, that's the primary function of the process, to legally establish cause of death.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 05, 2021, 11:10:59 AM
Really? Maybe you should petition the judiciary to update their historical purview and statutes to align with your skewed outlook.
He's right though.  Finding the Birmingham 6 guilty of causing explosions in pubs doesn't make it a fact that they did so. 
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 05, 2021, 11:12:00 AM
That's the coroner's job, to determine which of the options is most applicable, by weighing which is most likely given the evidence. Once that pronouncement is made, then it becomes a legal fact, that's the primary function of the process, to legally establish cause of death.
I'm not an idiot, but thanks for the recap all the same.  I love being lectured to especially by you.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Davel on January 05, 2021, 11:14:53 AM
That's the coroner's job, to determine which of the options is most applicable, by weighing which is most likely given the evidence. Once that pronouncement is made, then it becomes a legal fact, that's the primary function of the process, to legally establish cause of death.

Does her verdict make it a legal fact worldwide or only in Malaysia
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: The General on January 05, 2021, 11:15:57 AM
I'm not an idiot, but thanks for the recap all the same.  I love being lectured to especially by you.
Well you did ask:

So legally speaking what factually happened to Nora Quoirin?

You're welcome. Glad to be able to educate the uninformed.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Eleanor on January 05, 2021, 11:18:39 AM
Well you did ask:

You're welcome. Glad to be able to educate the uninformed.

From someone who doesn't even know the gender of the person delivering the verdict.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: The General on January 05, 2021, 11:20:32 AM
Does her verdict make it a legal fact worldwide or only in Malaysia
A Malaysian Coroner? So legal fact in Malaysia.
I believe the parents were hoping for an open verdict, which I'm sure they would have accepted as legal fact.

By the way, be in no doubt dudes, if the coroner would have stated a verdict of unlawful killing', then that's a fact too. I don't care.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: The General on January 05, 2021, 11:23:40 AM
From someone who doesn't even know the gender of the person delivering the verdict.
Always happy to dispense free, accurate legal advice. Bless you.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Eleanor on January 05, 2021, 11:25:33 AM
Always happy to dispense free, accurate legal advice. Bless you.

Careless.  In My Opinion.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Wonderfulspam on January 05, 2021, 11:26:07 AM
From someone who doesn't even know the gender of the person delivering the verdict.

Well yes, the gender of the coroner is particularly important, as was amply demonstrated in the case of.....um....errr....

Do we know if she was a lesbian?

That could change our whole perspective on the events.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: The General on January 05, 2021, 11:28:41 AM
Careless.  In My Opinion.
You're right, I couldn't.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Eleanor on January 05, 2021, 11:31:06 AM
You're right, I couldn't.

Not very good with English either.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 05, 2021, 11:31:52 AM
Well you did ask:

You're welcome. Glad to be able to educate the uninformed.
Your lecture was not in response to that question, but still, thank you.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: The General on January 05, 2021, 11:33:21 AM
Your lecture was not in response to that question, but still, thank you.
It was in response to subsequent discussion.
And no problem, at least now you know the difference.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 05, 2021, 11:34:45 AM
Well yes, the gender of the coroner is particularly important, as was amply demonstrated in the case of.....um....errr....

Do we know if she was a lesbian?

That could change our whole perspective on the events.
You're right.  As homosexuality is outlawed in Malaysia she could have been blackmailed into reaching that verdict by shadowy elites who wish to protect Malaysia's reputation as a safe holiday destination.  didn't think of that did you?
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: The General on January 05, 2021, 11:35:16 AM
Not very good with English either.
You're not goading are you by any chance?
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: The General on January 05, 2021, 11:39:38 AM
You're right.  As homosexuality is outlawed in Malaysia she could have been blackmailed into reaching that verdict by shadowy elites who wish to protect Malaysia's reputation as a safe holiday destination.  didn't think of that did you?
Your grasp of Muslim culture is also flawed if you think that anyone would feel the need to blackmail a woman.
The fact that this female coroner has ascended to such a prestigious position is testament to her tenacity and competence.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Eleanor on January 05, 2021, 11:42:50 AM
You're not goading are you by any chance?

Certainly not.  Just stating facts.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 05, 2021, 12:21:22 PM
Your grasp of Muslim culture is also flawed if you think that anyone would feel the need to blackmail a woman.
The fact that this female coroner has ascended to such a prestigious position is testament to her tenacity and competence.
I love it when you go all po-faced and sanctimonious.   I lived in Malaysia for years, but thanks for the further education, always much appreciated - and of course I know that corruption just isn't a feature of Malaysian life at all at all at all.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: G-Unit on January 05, 2021, 12:25:16 PM
I think the Malaysian authorities have behaved entirely correctly in this case. Both the police and the courts have relied on the evidence available to them. The family had to acknowledge that there was no physical evidence to aid the coroner. They said;

“The verdict focused exclusively on physical evidence and physical mobility – which we believe, presents a very incomplete/select theory on how Nora came about her death.”

LBT Global said;

“It is clear that Nora could not have physically carried out the movements suggested.

“It is crucial that to deliver a comprehensive verdict the coroner would have to have fully taken into account Nora’s condition – that they did so is not immediately apparent."

It may be clear to the family that Nora's condition prevented her from doing what it seems she did; leaving the accomodation and wandering off, but it seems they failed to convince the authorities. I wonder if they had medical testimony to support their belief? Did Nora's doctors testify about her physical capabilities?


https://www.thenational.scot/news/uk-news/18984097.nora-quoirin-inquest---family-disappointed-verdict/
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: jassi on January 05, 2021, 12:28:01 PM
I read somewhere yesterday ( don't ask for a cite as I don't have one to hand) that 49 witnesses were heard before a decision was taken.

Just in case someone wants to be a pain in the buttocks,

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/nora-quoirin-inquest-verdict-expected-within-a-month-39849921.html

6th paragraph down.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: The General on January 05, 2021, 12:35:05 PM
I read somewhere yesterday ( don't ask for a cite as I don't have one to hand) that 49 witnesses were heard before a decision was taken.
I think the main issue here is that the parents still maintain she was abducted.
It would appear that the evidence, or lack thereof, does not support this opinion.
It's a similar situation with the Nora Quoirin case.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 05, 2021, 12:36:42 PM
I think the main issue here is that the parents still maintain she was abducted.
It would appear that the evidence, or lack thereof, does not support this opinion.
It's a similar situation with the Nora Quoirin case.
This is the Nora Quorin case, what are you talking about?
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 05, 2021, 12:38:18 PM
I think the Malaysian authorities have behaved entirely correctly in this case. Both the police and the courts have relied on the evidence available to them. The family had to acknowledge that there was no physical evidence to aid the coroner. They said;

“The verdict focused exclusively on physical evidence and physical mobility – which we believe, presents a very incomplete/select theory on how Nora came about her death.”

LBT Global said;

“It is clear that Nora could not have physically carried out the movements suggested.

“It is crucial that to deliver a comprehensive verdict the coroner would have to have fully taken into account Nora’s condition – that they did so is not immediately apparent."

It may be clear to the family that Nora's condition prevented her from doing what it seems she did; leaving the accomodation and wandering off, but it seems they failed to convince the authorities. I wonder if they had medical testimony to support their belief? Did Nora's doctors testify about her physical capabilities?


https://www.thenational.scot/news/uk-news/18984097.nora-quoirin-inquest---family-disappointed-verdict/
I don't know but the headmaster of her school definitely did, and he said she would not have been capable of wandering off.  But what does he know, eh?  I'm sure those who never knew the girl at all are in a much better position to judge exactly what she was capable of.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: jassi on January 05, 2021, 12:40:15 PM
Unless there is a transcript of the inquest available, I suggest that no one on here knows what witnesses actually said.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Angelo222 on January 05, 2021, 12:41:34 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yk2n4bWdFqw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yk2n4bWdFqw)

The facts:

THE day before Nóra Quoirin went missing from her family's holiday villa in Malaysia she was approached by a stranger at Kuala Lumpur international airport, an inquest heard.

The 15-year-old's naked body was discovered after a 10-day police search.

An inquest heard her dad Sebastien had left Nóra and her two younger siblings unaccompanied for less than five minutes while he met their mum, Meabh, who had flown in separately from Singapore after a business trip.

He arrived with the children on August 3 after flying from London and a police officer told the inquest Mr Quoirin moved just 30 steps away to meet her at the arrival gate, leaving Nóra and her siblings, aged 12 and eight, alone "for less than five minutes".

The three siblings standing alone were approached by an unknown male, but the children ignored his approaches having been warned "not to speak to strangers".

https://www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2020/08/28/news/stranger-apporached-nora-quoirin-day-before-disappearance-from-family-s-malaysian-holiday-villa-2049620/
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: The General on January 05, 2021, 12:46:29 PM
This is the Nora Quorin case, what are you talking about?
[snaps rod and reels in frantically.....wwwwzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.....YOINK]
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: The General on January 05, 2021, 12:49:08 PM
The facts:

THE day before Nóra Quoirin went missing from her family's holiday villa in Malaysia she was approached by a stranger at Kuala Lumpur international airport, an inquest heard.

The 15-year-old's naked body was discovered after a 10-day police search.

An inquest heard her dad Sebastien had left Nóra and her two younger siblings unaccompanied for less than five minutes while he met their mum, Meabh, who had flown in separately from Singapore after a business trip.

He arrived with the children on August 3 after flying from London and a police officer told the inquest Mr Quoirin moved just 30 steps away to meet her at the arrival gate, leaving Nóra and her siblings, aged 12 and eight, alone "for less than five minutes".

The three siblings standing alone were approached by an unknown male, but the children ignored his approaches having been warned "not to speak to strangers".

https://www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2020/08/28/news/stranger-apporached-nora-quoirin-day-before-disappearance-from-family-s-malaysian-holiday-villa-2049620/
It we be more surprising if they weren't approached by a stranger at KL.
It used to be a two wallet destination.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Angelo222 on January 05, 2021, 12:53:26 PM
I read somewhere yesterday ( don't ask for a cite as I don't have one to hand) that 49 witnesses were heard before a decision was taken.

Just in case someone wants to be a pain in the buttocks,

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/nora-quoirin-inquest-verdict-expected-within-a-month-39849921.html

6th paragraph down.

Thank you jassi. The way some people here are posting one would think the coroner made up her findings just for fun...how pathetic.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: The General on January 05, 2021, 12:56:35 PM
I don't know but the headmaster of her school definitely did, and he said she would not have been capable of wandering off.  But what does he know, eh?  I'm sure those who never knew the girl at all are in a much better position to judge exactly what she was capable of.
I'm actually of the opinion that there's more to it than just simple wandering off. What that is I've no idea.
If she were my child I'd also be deeply unhappy with the misadventure verdict, as it's a bit of a cop-out, but not quite as much as 'open', which could almost mean anything.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Angelo222 on January 05, 2021, 01:01:30 PM
I don't know but the headmaster of her school definitely did, and he said she would not have been capable of wandering off.  But what does he know, eh?  I'm sure those who never knew the girl at all are in a much better position to judge exactly what she was capable of.

She wasn't at school though was she?  Nora was in an environment which amazed her, she was in awe of everything and that alone was the beginning of the end for her. It's just very unfortunate that the searchers chose to prioritise other areas nearer the camp because of the information the parents provided to them.

If the parents of a missing child insist that their child cannot go far unaccompanied then you don't look for them a mile away, you concentrate your resources nearby.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: The General on January 05, 2021, 01:01:38 PM
Thank you jassi. The way some people here are posting one would think the coroner made up her findings just for fun...how pathetic.
Having read that it looks to have been a competent, robust process, which delivered an honest verdict.
Again, I'm not sure I totally agree, but then I know very little about the case, so am in no position to judge.
I do know the jungle is an unforgiving hell. You don't have to stray too far from the beaten path to find yourself irredeemably and hopelessly lost, even during the day.
Maybe not so much on a resort.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: The General on January 05, 2021, 01:04:16 PM
She wasn't at school though was she?  Nora was in an environment which amazed her, she was in awe of everything and that alone was the beginning of the end for her. It's just very unfortunate that the searchers chose to prioritise other areas nearer the camp because of the information the parents provided to them.
Good point. If they're looking for someone with mental and physical impediments, then of course they're going to limit the search area to her likely sphere of travel.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Eleanor on January 05, 2021, 01:07:38 PM
I love it when you go all po-faced and sanctimonious.   I lived in Malaysia for years, but thanks for the further education, always much appreciated - and of course I know that corruption just isn't a feature of Malaysian life at all at all at all.

I don't think The General is interested in personal knowledge.  Or the fact that women weren't largely subjected to head coverings in my day.  They can please themselves although I don't think they actually do.  Please themselves that is.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: The General on January 05, 2021, 01:14:52 PM
I don't think The General is interested in personal knowledge.  Or the fact that women weren't largely subjected to head coverings in my day.  They can please themselves although I don't think they actually do.  Please themselves that is.
I'm deeply interested in personal knowledge, but it must be revealed for it to be subsumed.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: G-Unit on January 05, 2021, 01:15:08 PM
I don't know but the headmaster of her school definitely did, and he said she would not have been capable of wandering off.  But what does he know, eh?  I'm sure those who never knew the girl at all are in a much better position to judge exactly what she was capable of.

A doctor, and preferably a consultant would have carried weight as an expert witness. He or she could have testified that it was impossible for Nora to walk and climb. The parents and her teacher could only testify as to what they believed was impossible for her. I'm surprised no expert testimony was offered.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: G-Unit on January 05, 2021, 01:18:30 PM
Having read that it looks to have been a competent, robust process, which delivered an honest verdict.
Again, I'm not sure I totally agree, but then I know very little about the case, so am in no position to judge.
I do know the jungle is an unforgiving hell. You don't have to stray too far from the beaten path to find yourself irredeemably and hopelessly lost, even during the day.
Maybe not so much on a resort.

Nora, apparently, left the resort and entered the surrounding jungle.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: The General on January 05, 2021, 01:25:37 PM
Nora, apparently, left the resort and entered the surrounding jungle.
At night? 15 metres in and you're lucky if you can discern any visible light. How far did away was she found (I should really read all this I suppose).
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Eleanor on January 05, 2021, 01:25:43 PM
I'm deeply interested in personal knowledge, but it must be revealed for it to be subsumed.

I lived in Singapore and VS lived in Singapore and Malaysia.  My youngest son is a Singapore Citizen.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 05, 2021, 01:52:50 PM
She wasn't at school though was she? Nora was in an environment which amazed her, she was in awe of everything and that alone was the beginning of the end for her. It's just very unfortunate that the searchers chose to prioritise other areas nearer the camp because of the information the parents provided to them.

If the parents of a missing child insist that their child cannot go far unaccompanied then you don't look for them a mile away, you concentrate your resources nearby.
It's almost as if you knew the child personally and were with her at the time - incredible.  You are completely contradicting yourself by the way - her parents "insisted" she was kidnapped, so why would that mean searchers would prioritise areas nearer the camp based on what the parents told them?  You're making no sense at all.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 05, 2021, 01:53:59 PM
A doctor, and preferably a consultant would have carried weight as an expert witness. He or she could have testified that it was impossible for Nora to walk and climb. The parents and her teacher could only testify as to what they believed was impossible for her. I'm surprised no expert testimony was offered.
Have you read the full court transcript then?  A doctor could also only offer an opinion, same as parents and teachers, however it seems that the opinions of those who never knew the child at all have taken precedence.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Brietta on January 05, 2021, 02:03:27 PM
She wasn't at school though was she?  Nora was in an environment which amazed her, she was in awe of everything and that alone was the beginning of the end for her. It's just very unfortunate that the searchers chose to prioritise other areas nearer the camp because of the information the parents provided to them.

If the parents of a missing child insist that their child cannot go far unaccompanied then you don't look for them a mile away, you concentrate your resources nearby.

I believe it is procedure to start a search at the last known location of the missing person and work out from there.
(https://www.irishnews.com/picturesarchive/irishnews/irishnews/2019/08/18/194919441-fde680b3-21fd-4e96-a974-c6e8ab217f68.jpg)
A member of a rescue team searches for Nora Quoirin in Malaysia.
Picture by AP Photo/Lai Seng Sin
"The circumstances surrounding her death remain a complete mystery. Nora was barefoot and dressed only in her underwear when she disappeared from an open hall window of her holiday bungalow on the first night of the family’s holiday.

"Sniffer dogs only picked up her trail about 100 metres from the lodge, and how a child with special needs could have walked nearly two miles into dense forest and through a steep ravine is mystifying.

"Everyone is very upset and we have agonised over how she ended up in a waterfall area that had been combed by search teams in the first seven days."

Early on Saturday the family issued a statement asking the media to only rely on comments issued on their behalf by the Lucie Blackman Trust (LBT) charity.

The statement said: "The family of Nóra Quoirin would like to clarify several comments that have been attributed to the family or to people claiming to act on behalf of the family.

"They wish it to be made absolutely clear that the only comments and statements relating to the disappearance, death, investigation and any other matters that are actually from the family are those released via Matthew Searle of the Lucie Blackman Trust."

It added: "Any other comments and views are those of the speaker and do not necessarily reflect the views of the immediate family or an accurate portrayal of the facts."
https://www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2019/08/19/news/-inexperienced-searchers-may-have-missed-clues-in-nora-quoirin-hunt-1687888/
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Angelo222 on January 05, 2021, 02:04:00 PM
It's almost as if you knew the child personally and were with her at the time - incredible.  You are completely contradicting yourself by the way - her parents "insisted" she was kidnapped, so why would that mean searchers would prioritise areas nearer the camp based on what the parents told them?  You're making no sense at all.

Because the search was for a child who had strayed and NOT a kidnap victim.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: John on January 05, 2021, 02:11:45 PM
This case has stirred up quite a few emotions among members which is interesting.

Please keep to the facts when posting as per forum policy. TY
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 05, 2021, 02:21:52 PM
Because the search was for a child who had strayed and NOT a kidnap victim.
And they knew this for certain even while still looking for her?
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: G-Unit on January 05, 2021, 02:24:23 PM
Have you read the full court transcript then?  A doctor could also only offer an opinion, same as parents and teachers, however it seems that the opinions of those who never knew the child at all have taken precedence.

An informed opinion by someone who could testify as to her physical capabilities.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: G-Unit on January 05, 2021, 02:26:19 PM
And they knew this for certain even while still looking for her?

There was no evidence of abduction.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 05, 2021, 02:40:22 PM
There was no evidence of abduction.
There was no evidence to point to any particular theory, but the parents "insisted" she'd been abducted which you might have thought would at least be worth checking out by not concentrating the search to the very immediate area (as Angelo suggested they did because they  believed Nora couldn't walk very far).  In any case, by Day 3 they had certainly already extended their search as far as the location where she was eventually found.  I do find it astounding that with hundreds of people including indigenous trackers, and with dogs and helicopters utilised that she was not found for 13 days, 10 of which (according to the pathologist) she would have still been alive, and only materialised the day after a ten grand reward is posted.  A coincidence no doubt, but still odd IMO. 
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: The General on January 06, 2021, 12:41:38 PM
There was no evidence to point to any particular theory, but the parents "insisted" she'd been abducted which you might have thought would at least be worth checking out by not concentrating the search to the very immediate area (as Angelo suggested they did because they  believed Nora couldn't walk very far).  In any case, by Day 3 they had certainly already extended their search as far as the location where she was eventually found.  I do find it astounding that with hundreds of people including indigenous trackers, and with dogs and helicopters utilised that she was not found for 13 days, 10 of which (according to the pathologist) she would have still been alive, and only materialised the day after a ten grand reward is posted.  A coincidence no doubt, but still odd IMO.
Jesus....I agree.
It is all incongruent. I'm struggling for an explanation, save for terrain being impassible in places.
She will have instinctively stuck to the beaten path, particularly given that in bare feet in the jungle she wouldn't make much progress. This also explains the distance covered.
So to not stumble across eachother during such an extensive search seems improbable.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: The General on January 06, 2021, 01:10:50 PM
....or.....she got up, went for a wander, some locals snatched her, held her somewhere and fed her sparsely or not at all. When the brown stuff hit the fan after several days, they killed her and dumped her body.
The 'killing' bit would be difficult to get past a coroner undetected. Strangulation or smothering would be easiest, but both leave tell-tale signs that they would almost certainly be unaware of (petechiae / hyoid bone fracture)
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 06, 2021, 02:42:17 PM
....or.....she got up, went for a wander, some locals snatched her, held her somewhere and fed her sparsely or not at all. When the brown stuff hit the fan after several days, they killed her and dumped her body.
The 'killing' bit would be difficult to get past a coroner undetected. Strangulation or smothering would be easiest, but both leave tell-tale signs that they would almost certainly be unaware of (petechiae / hyoid bone fracture)
It's possible she was snatched by one / two locals who were repulsed or frightened by her disabilities and decided to let her go off by herself when they couldn't handle her anymore.   
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: The General on January 06, 2021, 03:24:18 PM
It's possible she was snatched by one / two locals who were repulsed or frightened by her disabilities and decided to let her go off by herself when they couldn't handle her anymore.
That too.
But they couldn't take the risk of her giving them away. If this scenario is on the cards, then they must've kept her long enough for her to develop serious medical condition due to malnutrition, then panicked and disposed of her when the searchers were upon them. Seems a stretch, mind.
The unblemished feet....weird.

Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 06, 2021, 04:14:06 PM
That too.
But they couldn't take the risk of her giving them away. If this scenario is on the cards, then they must've kept her long enough for her to develop serious medical condition due to malnutrition, then panicked and disposed of her when the searchers were upon them. Seems a stretch, mind.
The unblemished feet....weird.
This is why IMO her parents were right to expect an open verdict.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: The General on January 07, 2021, 08:55:04 AM
This is why IMO her parents were right to expect an open verdict.
....or......she did manage to make it in to the she decent found shelter, but was still lost and was too afraid to venture out. Eventually hunger forced her to instinctively forage.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 07, 2021, 11:22:00 AM
....or......she did manage to make it in to the she decent found shelter, but was still lost and was too afraid to venture out. Eventually hunger forced her to instinctively forage.
One thing is for certain - we will never know what really happened.  Her parents will be tormented by this until the end of their days, and I'm sure there will always be people online ready, willing and able to judge them harshly and remorselessly.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: The General on January 07, 2021, 02:04:34 PM
One thing is for certain - we will never know what really happened.  Her parents will be tormented by this until the end of their days, and I'm sure there will always be people online ready, willing and able to judge them harshly and remorselessly.
Rest well, Nora.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: The General on January 08, 2021, 10:45:55 AM
In terms of actual evidence of foul play, I believe there was none.
They believe she was found by a stream in a recumbent position i.e. had found water and subsequently fell asleep, probably in excruciating pain and perhaps slipped in to a coma.
The actual cause of death seems unusual for layman, as I obviously am, but apparently not unknown - "Based on Nora’s post-mortem results, state police chief Mohamad Mat Yusop revealed that the official cause of death was upper gastrointestinal bleeding due to duodenal ulcer complicated by perforation, meaning there was internal bleeding in the intestines due to an ulcer which was brought on by starvation. “The cause of death was due to ruptured intestines which could be because she had no food for a long period and also long-term stress,” Mohamad told reporters.

Perforation of a stomach ulcer can be life-threatening if left untreated. According to the Mayo Clinic, ulcers can be caused by a range of things, from H. pylori bacteria in the digestive tract to certain medications. Extreme stress is not a direct cause, but it can make an underlying ulcer worse"

There were no footprints around the body, although she may have followed the path of a shallow stream.
She had minor scratches on her lower legs, indicative of brushing against jungle flora with bare skin.
It is believed she was dead for 4 days before she was found, but I found it quite telling that members of a local hiking club actually eventually discovered her, which again indicates why she may have gone undiscovered.
It would be interesting to find out if this apparent search of that area happened within that 4 days, but surely that all came out in the wash during the inquest.

There must be grounds for the parents to push for a 2nd inquest conducted by the French or Irish government, if such a legal device exists and I'm sure they're exploring that possibility.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: carlymichelle on January 10, 2021, 06:26:18 PM
....or.....she got up, went for a wander, some locals snatched her, held her somewhere and fed her sparsely or not at all. When the brown stuff hit the fan after several days, they killed her and dumped her body.
The 'killing' bit would be difficult to get past a coroner undetected. Strangulation or smothering would be easiest, but both leave tell-tale signs that they would almost certainly be unaware of (petechiae / hyoid bone fracture)

nora would have tried to  fight back if she was  being strangled sometimes  there are fingernail marks from  that
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: The General on January 11, 2021, 09:55:33 AM
nora would have tried to  fight back if she was  being strangled sometimes  there are fingernail marks from  that
Exactly, there's loads of tell tale signs - which obviously weren't there.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Wonderfulspam on January 18, 2021, 04:57:47 PM
Nóra Quoirin death: Girl's body 'placed in the jungle'

"I suppose the easiest one to dwell on was the fact there was an open window [in the family's chalet]," said Mrs Quoirin, who is originally from Belfast.

"Someone opened that window, it wasn't any of us. That is totally unexplained."

"Nóra always looked to someone else for reassurance on what she should do next so the idea that she would have climbed out a window - even found a window or seen a window in the pitch black - is in our view crazy," Mrs Quorin said.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-55697156

So now it's 'Crazy' to think that Nora would have seen a window, found a window or opened a window herself.

Was there no end to this girls incapacity?

It's a wonder she ever remembered to inhale & exhale.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 20, 2021, 10:48:04 AM
I tend to agree with the mother, she knew Nora best, she knew what she was and was not capable better than the Malaysian authorities and better than online WUMs.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: G-Unit on January 20, 2021, 11:34:06 AM
I tend to agree with the mother, she knew Nora best, she knew what she was and was not capable better than the Malaysian authorities and better than online WUMs.

Mothers may be closer to their children than others, but that doesn't mean their opinions are always right. Children can behave differently with different people and in different situations. Behaviour which a mother sees as normal could just be a habitual response to a protective mother.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 20, 2021, 11:38:27 AM
Mothers may be closer to their children than others, but that doesn't mean their opinions are always right. Children can behave differently with different people and in different situations. Behaviour which a mother sees as normal could just be a habitual response to a protective mother.
Just remember that next time someone cites Kate's mother saying Madeleine would have screamed the place down if she'd beem in the process of being abducted, 'kay?
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: G-Unit on January 20, 2021, 12:30:54 PM
Just remember that next time someone cites Kate's mother saying Madeleine would have screamed the place down if she'd beem in the process of being abducted, 'kay?

I was actually thinking of Kate McCann saying her daughter wouldn't leave their apartment despite having told her friends that the patio doors were left unlocked specifically so that her daughter could do just that. A mother who actually contradicts her own opinion of her daughter.

A family source said: "Kate and Gerry have always maintained that their daughter was abducted and simply didn’t get up and wander off to her fate.

"To suggest this is almost ridiculous.
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/uk-news/ex-cop-believes-madeleine-mccann-16340466

she was saying 'Is it better that if Madeleine wakes up she can get out and find us or', erm, 'or locking it and, you know, finding that we're not there and the door's locked if she woke up'
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm

I remember Gerry saying that they did not treat the matter with urgency and only stated that Madeleine must have left on her own and that she would be back later. It was so frustrating, Madeleine did not do things like that, she was not that kind of girl.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PATRICIA_CAMERON.htm
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 20, 2021, 01:34:23 PM
I was actually thinking of Kate McCann saying her daughter wouldn't leave their apartment despite having told her friends that the patio doors were left unlocked specifically so that her daughter could do just that. A mother who actually contradicts her own opinion of her daughter.

A family source said: "Kate and Gerry have always maintained that their daughter was abducted and simply didn’t get up and wander off to her fate.

"To suggest this is almost ridiculous.
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/uk-news/ex-cop-believes-madeleine-mccann-16340466

she was saying 'Is it better that if Madeleine wakes up she can get out and find us or', erm, 'or locking it and, you know, finding that we're not there and the door's locked if she woke up'
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm

I remember Gerry saying that they did not treat the matter with urgency and only stated that Madeleine must have left on her own and that she would be back later. It was so frustrating, Madeleine did not do things like that, she was not that kind of girl.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PATRICIA_CAMERON.htm
Sorry, which one of those is a direct quote from Kate?
And - are you now arguing that no one would know how a specific child would react to being carried out of their bed and apartment by an abuctor despite you previously using Kate's mother's interview as evidence that Madeleine would have screamed the place down?
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: G-Unit on January 20, 2021, 07:58:53 PM
Sorry, which one of those is a direct quote from Kate?
And - are you now arguing that no one would know how a specific child would react to being carried out of their bed and apartment by an abuctor despite you previously using Kate's mother's interview as evidence that Madeleine would have screamed the place down?

No-one knows another person completely, not even the person's mother.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 20, 2021, 08:14:51 PM
No-one knows another person completely, not even the person's mother.
And a person’s grandmother even less so.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: G-Unit on January 20, 2021, 11:12:53 PM
And a person’s grandmother even less so.

Quoting what someone says doesn't indicate agreement with them.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 20, 2021, 11:49:14 PM
Quoting what someone says doesn't indicate agreement with them.
strange  you would refer to it so regularly then.  On at least three separate occasions that I can see using a very basic search.  Good to know you don’t agree with it though and that you don’t now accept that Madeleine would definitely have behaved as her grandmother described.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: G-Unit on January 21, 2021, 10:11:04 AM
strange  you would refer to it so regularly then.  On at least three separate occasions that I can see using a very basic search.  Good to know you don’t agree with it though and that you don’t now accept that Madeleine would definitely have behaved as her grandmother described.

I expect the clue lies in what was being discussed at the time. I don't believe anyone who thinks they can predict with certainty what another person can/will do.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 21, 2021, 11:03:16 AM
I expect the clue lies in what was being discussed at the time. I don't believe anyone who thinks they can predict with certainty what another person can/will do.
I think young children and toddlers are quite unpredictable, yes, but that the older a child is, the longer you have lived with him or her (particularly one with special needs that limit their movements and attitudes to risk taking or dangers) the more likely you are to be able to judge what they are and are not likely to do.  IMO.   
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on February 24, 2021, 07:32:54 PM
The point is: The parents are wholly responsible for the care of their children. Both Noras' parents said they heard muffled sounds but didn't go and check on their children?  The coroner said their was no evidence of abduction. For the parents to sue the resort is tacky, disgusting and shows their greed  and denial of responsibility. similar to the McCANNS other Tapas team IMO.
Title: Re: Death-of-teenager-nora-quoirin-coroner-rules-out-involvement-of-others
Post by: Brietta on June 16, 2021, 03:41:39 PM
Evening Standard
Nóra Quoirin death: Judge overturns ‘misadventure’ verdict in fresh boost for family
Tristan Kirk 16/06/21

The family of a London teenager who died in the Malaysian jungle have received a boost as a judge overturned the inquest verdict that she had died of “misadventure”.

Nóra Quoirin’s body was found next to a stream in August 2019, nine days after she had gone missing from the eco-resort where she was staying with her parents.

The 15-year-old, a pupil at Garratt Park School in Earlsfield, south London, vanished from her room at the Dusun resort in Malaysia the day after they arrived on August 3, 2019.

Her parents believe the teenager, who suffered from a disorder affecting brain development, would never have left the property on her own and must have been abducted.

They say it would have been impossible for the teenager to navigate the terrain alone from their chalet to the spot where she was eventually found dead.

But to their dismay in January a coroner recorded a verdict of ‘misadventure’ and ruled out the involvement of anyone else in the death.

At the Malaysian High Court today, Judge Azizul Adnan overturned the conclusion and replaced it with an “open verdict”, saying there was “no credible evidence to support any other verdict”.

The ruling is a boost for Nóra’s parents, Meabh and Sebastien, as it leaves open the possibility of someone being involved in their daughter’s disappearance and death.

Mrs Quoirin had previous said she believes her daughter’s body was placed in the spot where she was found, saying there are "so many questions...left unanswered".

The teenager’s disappearance sparked a massive search operation in the jungle surrounding the eco-resort.

The spot where her body was eventually discovered is around 1.6 miles from the property where the family were staying, and had been searched prior to the finding of Nóra.

The family have questioned the effectiveness of the search operation, saying crucial DNA evidence was lost during the nine-day period spent hunting for Nóra.

The teenager had been wearing only underwear when she went missing, and was naked when her body was found. She had died from intestinal bleeding due to starvation and stress, pathologists found, but they could not rule out the possibility of sexual assault.

Giving evidence to the inquest, Mrs Quoirin said they heard “muffled whispering” on the night of the disappearance, and Nora was gone when they went to wake her the following morning.

She said her daughter’s disabilities would have made it impossible for her to open the window alone, and insisted if the teenager had got outside she would most likely have sat down to wait for help.

"I have a number of very precise reasons to believe that my daughter was kidnapped. How or why, I’m not qualified to say," she told coroner Maimoonah Aid.

But he went on to rule: “There was no-one involved in the death of Nora Anne.

“It is more probable than not that she died by misadventure, i.e. that she had gone out of the (cottage) on her own and subsequently got lost in the abundant palm oil plantation.”

Overturning that decision, the High Court judge found it was "not probable" Nóra would have left her chalet alone at night, nor that she could "have navigated by herself the challenging terrain in and around the location where she was eventually found".

He added she was a "shy and retiring child who was uncurious and unadventurous, and who was strongly attached emotionally to her parents", and it was "unlikely" she would go out on her own.

Following his ruling, Judge Adnan told the family: "We have not been able to assist you in finding the answers that you may have been seeking, but I hope that these proceedings would have assisted you in some way on the long road towards healing".

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/newslondon/n%C3%B3ra-quoirin-death-judge-overturns-misadventure-verdict-in-fresh-boost-for-family/ar-AAL6M3z?ocid=msedgntp