UK Justice Forum

Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Holly Goodhead on March 27, 2021, 10:14:02 AM

Title: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on March 27, 2021, 10:14:02 AM
MADELEINE McCann's parents have been asked to reach a “friendly settlement” in their legal row over a book, it has been reported.

The European Court Of Human Rights is said to have urged Kate and Gerry McCann to come to an agreement due to a backlog of cases.


https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/14472108/madeleine-mccann-parents-friendly-settlement/

Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Eleanor on March 27, 2021, 10:37:28 AM
MADELEINE McCann's parents have been asked to reach a “friendly settlement” in their legal row over a book, it has been reported.

The European Court Of Human Rights is said to have urged Kate and Gerry McCann to come to an agreement due to a backlog of cases.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/14472108/madeleine-mccann-parents-friendly-settlement/

What is this supposed to signify?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on March 27, 2021, 10:52:13 AM
MADELEINE McCann's parents have been asked to reach a “friendly settlement” in their legal row over a book, it has been reported.

The European Court Of Human Rights is said to have urged Kate and Gerry McCann to come to an agreement due to a backlog of cases.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/14472108/madeleine-mccann-parents-friendly-settlement/
I thought this was nothing to do with Amaral?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: jassi on March 27, 2021, 11:40:10 AM
What is this supposed to signify?

Who knows?
The European Court Of Human Rights is said to have urged Kate and Gerry McCann to come to an agreement due to a backlog of cases.
Who by?

I suggest that the Sun are confused about the function of the ECHR .
Alternatively, they  could have been mis-directed by someone to conceal  rejection of the case by the ECHR.

Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: misty on March 27, 2021, 12:14:47 PM
https://www.echr.coe.int/Documents/Applicants_communication_non_contentious_ENG.pdf

"Friendly settlements".
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: jassi on March 27, 2021, 12:20:43 PM
https://www.echr.coe.int/Documents/Applicants_communication_non_contentious_ENG.pdf

"Friendly settlements".

Somehow I don't think so  @)(++(*
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on March 27, 2021, 01:09:22 PM
Who knows?
The European Court Of Human Rights is said to have urged Kate and Gerry McCann to come to an agreement due to a backlog of cases.
Who by?

I suggest that the Sun are confused about the function of the ECHR .
Alternatively, they  could have been mis-directed by someone to conceal  rejection of the case by the ECHR.

It's part of the process for the ECHR to suggest the parties reach a friendly settlement. It's not unusual in applications where well-established case law already exists. 

At the same time as a case is communicated to the respondent government, the European Court will write to the parties to inform them that the Court is at the parties’ disposal for the purpose of securing a friendly settlement and inviting proposals from either party (Rule 62¹§1 of the Rules of Court). The Court will usually set a time limit for any proposals.
https://www.echr.am/en/functions/representation/friendly-settlements.html#:~:text=It%20is%20an%20agreement%20between,an%20undertaking%20by%20the%20respondent
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: jassi on March 27, 2021, 01:26:36 PM
It's part of the process for the ECHR to suggest the parties reach a friendly settlement. It's not unusual in applications where well-established case law already exists. 

At the same time as a case is communicated to the respondent government, the European Court will write to the parties to inform them that the Court is at the parties’ disposal for the purpose of securing a friendly settlement and inviting proposals from either party (Rule 62¹§1 of the Rules of Court). The Court will usually set a time limit for any proposals.
https://www.echr.am/en/functions/representation/friendly-settlements.html#:~:text=It%20is%20an%20agreement%20between,an%20undertaking%20by%20the%20respondent

OK, thanks.
Presumably between McCann & Portugal, so still misleading reporting by the Sun.

And if it's normal procedure, why should 'friend of the family' be so surprised ?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on March 27, 2021, 01:33:36 PM
OK, thanks.
Presumably between McCann & Portugal, so still misleading reporting by the Sun.

And if it's normal procedure, why should 'friend of the family' be so surprised ?
Perhaps they're not as genned up on European Law as the experts on this forum?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: barrier on March 27, 2021, 01:37:58 PM

Perhaps they're not as genned up on European Law as the experts on this forum?

Davel?  He's the only one who seems to know anything about this.

When can we expect his pearls of wisdom then.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on March 27, 2021, 02:50:52 PM
Perhaps they're not as genned up on European Law as the experts on this forum?

The Sun journalist or the 'friend'? Neither have any excuse for ignorance in my opinion.

I would expect the McCanns' lawyers to know that the ECHR were encouraging friendly settlements and to have informed them of it. A friend should have known, therefore, that the request was not 'extraordinary' at all.

The Sun journalists are clinging to the idea that Amaral will be paid £ 750,000 in compensation, although no evidence of that has ever been offered by them.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on March 27, 2021, 03:03:13 PM
The Sun journalist or the 'friend'? Neither have any excuse for ignorance in my opinion.

I would expect the McCanns' lawyers to know that the ECHR were encouraging friendly settlements and to have informed them of it. A friend should have known, therefore, that the request was not 'extraordinary' at all.

The Sun journalists are clinging to the idea that Amaral will be paid £ 750,000 in compensation, although no evidence of that has ever been offered by them.
So, can I ask - before today did you know all about these "friendly settlements"?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on March 27, 2021, 03:04:50 PM
When can we expect his pearls of wisdom then.
Aww, you're missing him, I can tell.  He hasn't logged on since yesterday so you'll simply have to be patient.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: barrier on March 27, 2021, 03:10:44 PM
How come the sun know then.

There is a requirement of strict confidentiality in respect
of friendly-settlement negotiations under Rule 62 § 2, and any proposals or submissions in this regard
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: barrier on March 27, 2021, 03:11:44 PM
Aww, you're missing him, I can tell.  He hasn't logged on since yesterday so you'll simply have to be patient.

One thing you'll never be successful at.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Brietta on March 27, 2021, 03:30:30 PM
It's part of the process for the ECHR to suggest the parties reach a friendly settlement. It's not unusual in applications where well-established case law already exists. 

At the same time as a case is communicated to the respondent government, the European Court will write to the parties to inform them that the Court is at the parties’ disposal for the purpose of securing a friendly settlement and inviting proposals from either party (Rule 62¹§1 of the Rules of Court). The Court will usually set a time limit for any proposals.
https://www.echr.am/en/functions/representation/friendly-settlements.html#:~:text=It%20is%20an%20agreement%20between,an%20undertaking%20by%20the%20respondent

In other words ~ the McCann case V Portugal is admissible and in the process 😉
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on March 27, 2021, 03:31:44 PM
One thing you'll never be successful at.
I'll never be successful at missing Davel?  Oh dear, never mind, I will learn to live with it.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 27, 2021, 03:40:08 PM
In other words ~ the McCann case V Portugal is admissible and in the process 😉

For the McCanns no doubt the horror, trauma & pain they've suffered since Maddie was abducted & murdered by a paedophile/rapist will be eased somewhat once they get their hands on Amaral's money.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on March 27, 2021, 04:06:03 PM
For the McCanns no doubt the horror, trauma & pain they've suffered since Maddie was abducted & murdered by a paedophile/rapist will be eased somewhat once they get their hands on Amaral's money.
What do you know about it?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: misty on March 27, 2021, 04:08:04 PM
https://www.echr.am/en/functions/representation/friendly-settlements.html#:~:text=It%20is%20an%20agreement%20between,an%20undertaking%20by%20the%20respondent

The friendly settlement procedure in the European Court provides the respondent government and the applicant with an opportunity to resolve a dispute. It is an agreement between the parties which is very much like an out of court settlement in national legislation and affords them an opportunity to resolve an issue, usually on payment to the applicant by the respondent Contracting Party of a specified sum of money or on the basis of an undertaking by the respondent Contracting Party to provide appropriate resolution of the issue, or both.

The legal basis for friendly settlements is found in Article 39 of the European Convention on Human Rights, paragraph 1 of which stipulates:

“1. At any stage of the proceedings, the Court may place itself at the disposal of the parties concerned with a view to securing a friendly settlement of the matter on the basis of respect for human rights as defined in the Convention and the Protocols thereto.”

At the same time as a case is communicated to the respondent government, the European Court will write to the parties to inform them that the Court is at the parties’ disposal for the purpose of securing a friendly settlement and inviting proposals from either party (Rule 62¹§1 of the Rules of Court). The Court will usually set a time limit for any proposals. However, the time limit may be extended (the Court is keen for cases to be resolved and so is likely to grant more time if a settlement is a real possibility).

It is common for the European Court actively to become involved in facilitating settlement in a proactive way, and it may consider striking out an application if an applicant is considered “unreasonably” to have refused friendly settlement proposals. For example, when financial negotiations run into difficulties, the Court may be prepared to suggest what would represent a reasonable sum for settlement of the case. Rule 62 of the Rules of Court permits the Court to take any steps that appear necessary to facilitate settlement, which may include arranging a meeting between the parties (see, e.g., Koksal v. Netherlands, application no. 31725/96, 20 March 2001). The Court’s practice as regards applications concerning “well-established case-law” is now to be rather more proactive: in order to encourage the resolution of such cases, the Court may of its own motion send settlement proposals to the parties.

Friendly settlement negotiations are confidential and are without prejudice to the parties’ arguments in the contentious proceedings (Article 39§2 of the Convention and Rule 62¹§2 of the Rules of Court). The details of the negotiations cannot be referred to or relied on the substantive proceedings, or in any other contentious proceedings. Breaching this confidentiality could lead to an application being declared inadmissible on grounds of abuse of the rights of application.(See, e.g. Handrabova and others v. Czech Republic, application no. 42165/02 and 466/03, dec. 29 September 2007; Popov v. Moldova (No. 1), application no. 74153/01, 18 January 2005; Mirolubovs v. Latvia, application no. 798/05, 15 September 2009).

The European Court will be willing to facilitate settlement of cases as this will mean a reduction in the Court’s substantial backlog of cases. If terms are agreed, both parties should write to the Court to confirm the terms of the settlement agreement and request that the case be struck out of the Court’s list of cases. The Court will publish a decision or judgment (if concluded post-admissibility) recording the facts of the case and terms agreed between the parties and formally striking the case out of the list (Articles 39§3). This decision will be transmitted to the Committee of Ministers, which shall supervise the execution of the terms of the friendly settlement as set out in the decision (Articles 39§4). Settlements therefore have a higher “visibility” than was previously the case prior to the implementation of Protocol No. 11.

In accordance with Article 37§1 of the Convention, in striking out applications, the European Court will continue the examination of the case “if respect for human rights as defined in the Convention and protocols thereto so requires”. The factors affecting this decision will include the importance of the issue raised by the case, the terms of settlement proposed by the parties and whether the issue has previously been considered by the Court. Thus, a friendly settlement that had been agreed between the parties in Ukrainian Media Group v. Ukraine was rejected by the Court because of the gravity of the alleged interferences with the applicant company’s right to freedom of expression (Ukrainian Media Group v. Ukraine, application no. 72713/01, 29 March 2005).

The European Court may also decline to confirm a friendly settlement agreement if, for example, it is not satisfied that the applicant has unambiguously consented to its terms (see, e.g. Paladi v. Moldova, application no. 39806/05, 10 July 2007, §§51-53, the case was subsequently referred to the Grand Chamber).

Article 37§2 enables the European Court to restore the case to its list if the terms of friendly settlement are not subsequently complied with (see, e.g. Katic v. Serbia, application no. 13920/04, dec. 7 July 2009).

Thus, the European Court always encourages parties to negotiate a friendly settlement. If no agreement is reached the Court will proceed to examine the merits of the application.


Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: jassi on March 27, 2021, 04:35:13 PM
Be interesting to see who's got the better negotiators and how this all pans out.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: barrier on March 27, 2021, 05:33:47 PM
In other words ~ the McCann case V Portugal is admissible and in the process 😉


Nope.

It is common for the European Court actively to become involved in facilitating settlement in a proactive way, and it may consider striking out an application if an applicant is considered “unreasonably” to have refused friendly settlement proposals.


Thus, the European Court always encourages parties to negotiate a friendly settlement. If no agreement is reached the Court will proceed to examine the merits of the application.

Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Brietta on March 28, 2021, 12:33:08 AM

Nope.

It is common for the European Court actively to become involved in facilitating settlement in a proactive way, and it may consider striking out an application if an applicant is considered “unreasonably” to have refused friendly settlement proposals.


Thus, the European Court always encourages parties to negotiate a friendly settlement. If no agreement is reached the Court will proceed to examine the merits of the application.


If no agreement is reached the Court will proceed  ...

CONTENTIOUS PHASE
If the parties do not settle the case by the above date, the contentious phase will start, in which case the applicant will be required to be represented by an “advocate” before the Court, in accordance with Rule 36 §§ 2 and 4. As in the non-contentious phase, self-representation can be explicitly requested also at this stage of the proceedings. Any such request will be submitted to the President for consideration.

https://www.echr.coe.int/Documents/Applicants_communication_non_contentious_ENG.pdf
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: barrier on March 28, 2021, 08:52:51 AM
Whose been blabbing to the sun then.


Both parties have been requested to indicate within twelve weeks their position regarding a friendly
settlement of your case and to submit any proposals they may wish to make in this regard (Rule 62). If
the parties are interested in reaching a settlement, the Registry would be prepared to make a
suggestion for the terms of the settlement. Should the Government submit any such proposals, you
will have the possibility to comment on them. There is a requirement of strict confidentiality in respect
of friendly-settlement negotiations under Rule 62 § 2, and any proposals or submissions in this regard should be set out in a separate document, the content of which must not be referred to in any
submissions made in the context of the main proceedings.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: barrier on March 28, 2021, 09:18:58 AM
If no agreement is reached the Court will proceed  ...

CONTENTIOUS PHASE
If the parties do not settle the case by the above date, the contentious phase will start, in which case the applicant will be required to be represented by an “advocate” before the Court, in accordance with Rule 36 §§ 2 and 4. As in the non-contentious phase, self-representation can be explicitly requested also at this stage of the proceedings. Any such request will be submitted to the President for consideration.

https://www.echr.coe.int/Documents/Applicants_communication_non_contentious_ENG.pdf


Walk before you run, have they got past the previous stage yet?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: barrier on March 28, 2021, 09:20:21 AM
Aww, you're missing him, I can tell.  He hasn't logged on since yesterday so you'll simply have to be patient.

Hey up your hero is in the building, oh the anticipation.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: jassi on March 28, 2021, 09:36:22 AM
Whose been blabbing to the sun then.


Both parties have been requested to indicate within twelve weeks their position regarding a friendly
settlement of your case and to submit any proposals they may wish to make in this regard (Rule 62). If
the parties are interested in reaching a settlement, the Registry would be prepared to make a
suggestion for the terms of the settlement. Should the Government submit any such proposals, you
will have the possibility to comment on them. There is a requirement of strict confidentiality in respect
of friendly-settlement negotiations under Rule 62 § 2, and any proposals or submissions in this regard should be set out in a separate document, the content of which must not be referred to in any
submissions made in the context of the main proceedings.


A friend ?

Haven't seen it repeated elsewhere so maybe a Sun exclusive.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on March 28, 2021, 09:39:17 AM
Hey up your hero is in the building, oh the anticipation.
You must be wetting yourself.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: barrier on March 28, 2021, 11:10:06 AM
You must be wetting yourself.

Nah, its more likely  the ladies of the harem of the court of King Caractacus.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on March 28, 2021, 11:13:48 AM
Nah, its more likely  the ladies of the harem of the court of King Caractacus.
snipe snipe snipe
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: barrier on March 28, 2021, 12:01:33 PM
snipe snipe snipe

You're astute, or judgemental thats probably a better fit, I didn't big davel up to be the expert.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on March 28, 2021, 12:23:52 PM
You're astute, or judgemental thats probably a better fit, I didn't big davel up to be the expert.
Nor did I so why are you constantly nitpicking my posts and making out I hero worship Davel?  Perhaps you are bored? 
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: kizzy on March 28, 2021, 01:39:39 PM
IMO it seems it could be that -  it is about to be thrown out by the ECHR.

GA could be about to get his money probably the settling could be about how much he will get. IMO
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: jassi on March 28, 2021, 01:44:20 PM
IMO it seems it could be that -  it is about to be thrown out by the ECHR.

GA could be about to get his money probably the settling could be about how much he will get. IMO

I'm not convinced that he hasn't already got whatever he's entitled to.
As far as I'm aware he's never made any claim that McCann still owes him money
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: kizzy on March 28, 2021, 01:54:39 PM
I'm not convinced that he hasn't already got whatever he's entitled to.
As far as I'm aware he's never made any claim that McCann still owes him money

Could be - but there again I don't think G.A. is motivated by money anyway.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on March 28, 2021, 02:02:44 PM
IMO it seems it could be that -  it is about to be thrown out by the ECHR.

GA could be about to get his money probably the settling could be about how much he will get. IMO
As your side of the argument never fails to remind us, the appeal to the ECHR is nothing to do with Amaral, the case is between the McCanns and the state of Portugal.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: kizzy on March 28, 2021, 02:26:52 PM
As your side of the argument never fails to remind us, the appeal to the ECHR is nothing to do with Amaral, the case is between the McCanns and the state of Portugal.

Whatever - it still seems to me as if it's about to be thrown out.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on March 28, 2021, 02:52:52 PM
Whatever - it still seems to me as if it's about to be thrown out.
You hope.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Eleanor on March 28, 2021, 02:56:42 PM

I'd let yous all sweat if I was Davel.  Ungrateful bunch.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: kizzy on March 28, 2021, 03:57:29 PM
I'd let yous all sweat if I was Davel.  Ungrateful bunch.

Sweat about what
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Eleanor on March 28, 2021, 03:59:57 PM
Sweat about what

The Due Process.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: kizzy on March 28, 2021, 04:19:24 PM
You hope.

Don't be silly VS - it was just my opinion it's the mccs problem, not mine.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: kizzy on March 28, 2021, 04:23:24 PM
The Due Process.

You can find the due process yourself by googling it
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Eleanor on March 28, 2021, 04:25:50 PM
This in fact is just a minor issue in The Due Process that apparently has to be gone through.  And as there is no chance of a Friendly Agreement, be it with Amaral or Portugal then I very much doubt that The Application will be thrown out at this stage.

In fact if anything then it suggests that The Application is proceeding.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Eleanor on March 28, 2021, 04:28:27 PM
You can find the due process yourself by googling it

I don't need to.  I trust the ability of Davel to fathom it all.  Davel never twists the facts to suit himself.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on March 28, 2021, 04:47:00 PM
Don't be silly VS - it was just my opinion it's the mccs problem, not mine.
Don’t tell me not to be silly, it is clear that your opinion is based on nothing more than wishful thinking. IMO.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: kizzy on March 28, 2021, 05:29:38 PM
I don't need to.  I trust the ability of Davel to fathom it all.  Davel never twists the facts to suit himself.

Well if that's what you prefer to believe -  seems I will leave it at that.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: kizzy on March 28, 2021, 05:30:17 PM
Don’t tell me not to be silly, it is clear that your opinion is based on nothing more than wishful thinking. IMO.

No, it's not clear at all or wishful thinking.

It's that I like thousands of others -  don't believe the mccs version of events.

I believe the mccs had to go to ECHR - as they had nowhere else to go, last chance saloon as they say IMO
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on March 28, 2021, 05:48:39 PM
No, it's not clear at all or wishful thinking.

It's that I like thousands of others -  don't believe the mccs version of events.

I believe the mccs had to go to ECHR - as they had nowhere else to go, last chance saloon as they say IMO
And you think they will fail because it’s what you hope, not because you have any special insight or knowledge of how the ECHR works or arrives at its decisions. 
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Angelo222 on March 28, 2021, 05:59:13 PM
No, it's not clear at all or wishful thinking.

It's that I like thousands of others -  don't believe the mccs version of events.

I believe the mccs had to go to ECHR - as they had nowhere else to go, last chance saloon as they say IMO

Amaral has already won his case and by the looks of it the ECHR is about to throw in a curved ball too.

As previously stated, Amaral is not involved in any deal making any more, the ECHR case is against Portugal and I don't see them paying the McCanns a cent.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: kizzy on March 28, 2021, 06:19:39 PM
And you think they will fail because it’s what you hope, not because you have any special insight or knowledge of how the ECHR works or arrives at its decisions.

And you think they will fail because it’s what you hope,

Seems your the one who claims a special insight VS.

Mine is only just my opinion.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: jassi on March 28, 2021, 06:23:15 PM
I don't know what the ECHR will do, but I am interested in the Sun's promulgation of fake news.
No other media outlet has picked up on this and the Sun provides no source for the article, other than a 'surprised' family friend's comment.
If this information is supposed to be confidential, then who leaked it and for who's benefit ?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on March 28, 2021, 06:33:24 PM
And you think they will fail because it’s what you hope,

Seems your the one who claims a special insight VS.

Mine is only just my opinion.
So you’re telling me you don’t hope they will fail in their action agsinst Portugal at the ECHR?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on March 28, 2021, 06:34:37 PM
I don't know what the ECHR will do, but I am interested in the Sun's promulgation of fake news.
No other media outlet has picked up on this and the Sun provides no source for the article, other than a 'surprised' family friend's comment.
If this information is supposed to be confidential, then who leaked it and for who's benefit ?
Who apart from you cares, really?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: kizzy on March 28, 2021, 06:43:40 PM
So you’re telling me you don’t hope they will fail in their action agsinst Portugal at the ECHR?

I have already told you it's mccs prob, not mine.

There is more to life my dear than hoping they fail at the ECHR.

I would call it - it was obvious they weren't going to get anywhere with it anyway IMO
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 28, 2021, 06:44:27 PM
Who apart from you cares, really?

Well, me actually.

I'd also like to know.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on March 28, 2021, 06:47:12 PM
I have already told you it's mccs prob, not mine.

There is more to life my dear than hoping they fail at the ECHR.

I would call it - it was obvious they weren't going to get anywhere with it anyway IMO
So despite the McCanns allegedly bringing out the worst in you that when it comes to their legal action at the ECHR you don’t actively want them to fail. Yes, and I’m sure you posted that while riding on the back of a flying pig.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on March 28, 2021, 06:48:04 PM
Well, me actually.

I'd also like to know.
Yes but you don’t count for obvious reasons.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: barrier on March 28, 2021, 06:49:36 PM
Well, me actually.

I'd also like to know.

Will it impact on the echr's thinking.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on March 28, 2021, 06:55:25 PM
Will it impact on the echr's thinking.
Hmm, good question.  Will the Sun newspaper’s article impact on the ECHR.   LOL.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on March 28, 2021, 06:55:41 PM
I don't know what the ECHR will do, but I am interested in the Sun's promulgation of fake news.
No other media outlet has picked up on this and the Sun provides no source for the article, other than a 'surprised' family friend's comment.
If this information is supposed to be confidential, then who leaked it and for who's benefit ?

I'm surprised some posters beleive the rubbish posted in the Sun. Im sure the McCanns have not been urged to make  adeal with Portugal.

What is happening is the totally normal progress of  a complaint to the ECHR and it shows to me that the application is progressing and shows no signs of being thrown out...theres no reason why it should be. Could those who claim it will be provide  a reason for it to be dismissed....Im confident they will not be  able to provide any valid reason . having looked at many cases ...and posted links here...the Mccanns seem to have  a very ery strong case.

Theres no confidentiality of the fact its at the stage of a friendly resolution...whats confidential is the negotiation details.....and the McCans certainly havent been thrown  a curved ball as Angelo seems to think.

The McCanns made the complaint so its up to Portugal to put forward some sort of resolution. I dont see that they can so it will then move to the next stage and the complaint looked at in detail  by the ECHR.

AFAIAC the latest news is good news for the McCanns in their atempt to silence Amaral.....which will be what happens if they are successful
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: barrier on March 28, 2021, 06:58:35 PM
I'm surprised some posters beleive the rubbish posted in the Sun. Im sure the McCanns have not been urged to make  adeal with Portugal.

What is happening is the totally normal progress of  a complaint to the ECHR and it shows to me that the application is progressing and shows no signs of being thrown out...theres no reason why it should be. Could those who claim it will be provide  a reason for it to be dismissed....i. confident they will not be  able to provide any valid raeson. having looked at many cases ...and posted links here...the Mccanns seem to have  avery strong case.

Theres no confidentiality of the fact its at the stage of a friendly resolution...whats confidential is the negotiation details.....and the McCans certainly havent been throaw a curved ball as Angelo seems to think.

The McCanns made the complaint so its up to Portugal to put forward some sort of resolution. I dont see that they can so it will then move to the next stage and the compaint looked at in detail  by the ECHR.

AFAIAC the latest news is good news for the McCanns in their atempt to silence Amaral.....which will be what happens if they are successful


Thats' it, we've waited for that, ah well there's another day tomorrow.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 28, 2021, 07:00:53 PM
I'm surprised some posters beleive the rubbish posted in the Sun. Im sure the McCanns have not been urged to make  adeal with Portugal.

What is happening is the totally normal progress of  a complaint to the ECHR and it shows to me that the application is progressing and shows no signs of being thrown out...theres no reason why it should be. Could those who claim it will be provide  a reason for it to be dismissed....i. confident they will not be  able to provide any valid raeson. having looked at many cases ...and posted links here...the Mccanns seem to have  avery strong case.

Theres no confidentiality of the fact its at the stage of a friendly resolution...whats confidential is the negotiation details.....and the McCans certainly havent been throaw a curved ball as Angelo seems to think.

The McCanns made the complaint so its up to Portugal to put forward some sort of resolution. I dont see that they can so it will then move to the next stage and the compaint looked at in detail  by the ECHR.

AFAIAC the latest news is good news for the McCanns in their atempt to silence Amaral.....which will be what happens if they are successful

Is there anything really left for him to say?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: barrier on March 28, 2021, 07:03:21 PM
Is there anything really left for him to say?

Bound to be his fault Wolters can't nail down on his suspect.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 28, 2021, 07:05:45 PM
Bound to be his fault Wolters can't nail down on his suspect.

Wolters will take the stand & present the evidence against Brueckner, disproving once & for all the theory of accidental death.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: barrier on March 28, 2021, 07:06:05 PM
I'm surprised some posters beleive the rubbish posted in the Sun. Im sure the McCanns have not been urged to make  adeal with Portugal.

What is happening is the totally normal progress of  a complaint to the ECHR and it shows to me that the application is progressing and shows no signs of being thrown out...theres no reason why it should be. Could those who claim it will be provide  a reason for it to be dismissed....i. confident they will not be  able to provide any valid raeson. having looked at many cases ...and posted links here...the Mccanns seem to have  avery strong case.

Theres no confidentiality of the fact its at the stage of a friendly resolution...whats confidential is the negotiation details.....and the McCans certainly havent been throaw a curved ball as Angelo seems to think.

The McCanns made the complaint so its up to Portugal to put forward some sort of resolution. I dont see that they can so it will then move to the next stage and the compaint looked at in detail  by the ECHR.

AFAIAC the latest news is good news for the McCanns in their atempt to silence Amaral.....which will be what happens if they are successful

I can see where El's hope spring's from.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on March 28, 2021, 07:13:06 PM
Del
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 28, 2021, 07:17:39 PM
Del

& Rodney.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on March 28, 2021, 07:18:46 PM
Is there anything really left for him to say?
No put that doesn’t stop him renting his gob out to any TV programme that will have him.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: barrier on March 28, 2021, 07:25:50 PM
  Perhaps you are bored?

Pubs will soon be open.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on March 28, 2021, 07:28:08 PM
& Rodney.
Plonker.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on March 28, 2021, 08:23:07 PM
Can someone bring me up to speed please...has either party had to shell out any £'s to date? 
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 28, 2021, 08:42:52 PM
Can someone bring me up to speed please...has either party had to shell out any £'s to date?

I'm not sure, but I do seem to remember reading Amaral's assets at one point were frozen.

Perhaps they thawed out & leaked into the boot of his Mercedes.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on March 28, 2021, 09:40:53 PM
Can someone bring me up to speed please...has either party had to shell out any £'s to date?

Madeleine's Fund has paid some of the costs the McCanns were ordered to pay by the courts. It's paid Duarte's fees also. Whether everything has been paid we don't know. Those they sued had to pay court costs and lawyers during the process, but hopefully they have been reimbursed by now.

The repeated reference to compensation payable to Amaral by the Sun is puzzling, as no court judgement has been released mentioning that. It's only a guess on my part but I wonder if it's connected to the fact that a freezing injunction taken out by the McCanns stopped Amaral from accessing his money for years. Perhaps he has the right to be compensated for that.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on March 28, 2021, 10:07:37 PM
Madeleine's Fund has paid some of the costs the McCanns were ordered to pay by the courts. It's paid Duarte's fees also. Whether everything has been paid we don't know. Those they sued had to pay court costs and lawyers during the process, but hopefully they have been reimbursed by now.

The repeated reference to compensation payable to Amaral by the Sun is puzzling, as no court judgement has been released mentioning that. It's only a guess on my part but I wonder if it's connected to the fact that a freezing injunction taken out by the McCanns stopped Amaral from accessing his money for years. Perhaps he has the right to be compensated for that.
Surely the supreme court judgement would overturn any freezing injunction on his assets?  The Sun has claimed to have seen court documents that presumably are not in the public domain so clearly they know something that has not been released to the general public. 
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on March 28, 2021, 10:47:54 PM
Surely the supreme court judgement would overturn any freezing injunction on his assets?  The Sun has claimed to have seen court documents that presumably are not in the public domain so clearly they know something that has not been released to the general public.

The SC judgement would cancel the injunction because there was no longer a claim against his assets. He would then be able to access his money. When did the Sun claim to have seen these court documents?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on March 28, 2021, 10:53:11 PM
The SC judgement would cancel the injunction because there was no longer a claim against his assets. He would then be able to access his money. When did the Sun claim to have seen these court documents?
Yes, that’s what I said.  Why do you think thr ECHR would be interested in Amaral’s unfrozen assets?  And, as for  your question, the Sun has claimed it in a recent article which I can’t presently find.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Brietta on March 29, 2021, 03:38:21 AM
Madeleine's Fund has paid some of the costs the McCanns were ordered to pay by the courts. It's paid Duarte's fees also. Whether everything has been paid we don't know. Those they sued had to pay court costs and lawyers during the process, but hopefully they have been reimbursed by now.

The repeated reference to compensation payable to Amaral by the Sun is puzzling, as no court judgement has been released mentioning that. It's only a guess on my part but I wonder if it's connected to the fact that a freezing injunction taken out by the McCanns stopped Amaral from accessing his money for years. Perhaps he has the right to be compensated for that.
You really do need to provide cites forThe McCanns had absolutely nothing to do with the financial mess Amaral had got himself into, he managed all of that perfectly well by himself.
Snip
Kate and Gerald McCann respond to Goncalo Amaral, 28 February 2012  Jornal da Regiao - Oeiras

Goncalo Amaral got rich at the expense of the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, and it is known today that the profits derived from spreading, via all open and available media to the ex-inspector coordinator of the case investigation, were, within only one year, at least and demonstrably, in the order of €342,111.86.

From the cautionary injunction ordered by the 1st Civil Court of Lisbon, Goncalo Amaral's moiety was frozen in the single share he held in his single-name society, not preventing him from continuing to work nor preventing the referred gentleman from continuing to write or engage in other tasks that he sees fit, as a citizen, even with a tainted criminal record.
However, no apprehension was made of goods or financial values, which were held by that society.
This society, in no year since it was established in 2008, has ever presented, even, its public accounts, contrary to what it should have done.

From the amounts received from copyright, above mentioned and related with the publication of the book "The Truth of The Lie" and with the aired TVI documentary and the DVD sold with the newspaper "Correio da Manha", and other activities engaged in by ex-inspector Goncalo Amaral, as well as the rights of at least six editions of the book in foreign languages, no amount was seized.

With regards to the villa that Goncalo Amaral had in Urbanizacao Cerro Azul, in Quelfes, there aren't any losses to the referred interviewee that are to be attributable to the parents of Madeleine McCann.
In fact, in 2009, there were several mortgages pending on this house as well as a registered asset freezing originating from a lawsuit brought by a brother of Goncalo Amaral against him and his wife, for, demonstrably, as stated in the sentence pronounced by the 2nd Civil Court of Family and Minors Court of the District of Seixal, having sold a house to a third party, after having received the amount they should receive for it, from the mentioned brother, who had helped them pay previous debts.

The parents of Madeleine McCann got to know about such action after their intervention in this was raised by the enforcement agent in charge, a person who also seems to have some important information about what is explained above.
About this house there were pending asset freezings originated by the tax authorities, as the interviewee in question, despite being a civil servant, had tax problems, long before the publication of the book and of the documentary.
Currently this house is owned by Banco Espirito Santo, one of the creditors, with visible credit problems with the referred interviewee, long before the publication of the book, and, therefore, the actions brought by the respondents.

About the "Jaguar" vehicle with licence plate 28-FB-58, which at the date of the process was owned by the single-name society mentioned, was, on January 21, 2010 sold to a third party and on whose name it is currently registered, so that neither the parents of Madeleine McCann nor any of the several other creditors had the possibility to use it to cover the various debts incurred by the referred, repeating, long before the book's publication.

As for the pension that the former inspector receives, in the amount of € 2,039.16, it's being deducted from it a percentage of less than 0.1% of the known values received by the ex-inspector for the book and documentary, which he delivered finished to his publishers even before the criminal process, which was under judicial secrecy, had been archived, thus disrespecting the ex-inspector, in this as in other aspects, duties incumbent to him, even in the situation of retirement. Moreover, on this pension, there has previously been executed a seizure, originated in a process by the Finance Services of Olhao, for tax debts.

Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Eleanor on March 29, 2021, 08:06:57 AM
Madeleine's Fund has paid some of the costs the McCanns were ordered to pay by the courts. It's paid Duarte's fees also. Whether everything has been paid we don't know. Those they sued had to pay court costs and lawyers during the process, but hopefully they have been reimbursed by now.

The repeated reference to compensation payable to Amaral by the Sun is puzzling, as no court judgement has been released mentioning that. It's only a guess on my part but I wonder if it's connected to the fact that a freezing injunction taken out by the McCanns stopped Amaral from accessing his money for years. Perhaps he has the right to be compensated for that.

The McCanns didn't get a freezing injunction.  The Court applied this.  There were others at the head of the queue.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Eleanor on March 29, 2021, 08:09:48 AM
The SC judgement would cancel the injunction because there was no longer a claim against his assets. He would then be able to access his money. When did the Sun claim to have seen these court documents?

Have Amaral's other and more long standing creditors been paid yet, do you know?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on March 29, 2021, 10:12:27 AM
Yes, that’s what I said.  Why do you think thr ECHR would be interested in Amaral’s unfrozen assets?  And, as for  your question, the Sun has claimed it in a recent article which I can’t presently find.

The ECHR isn't interested in Amaral's assets, but the Sun journalists seem to think the McCanns owe him £750,000 in compensation.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: jassi on March 29, 2021, 10:21:41 AM
The ECHR isn't interested in Amaral's assets, but the Sun journalists seem to think the McCanns owe him £750,000 in compensation.

just to push the image of McCann as victims - IMO
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on March 29, 2021, 10:33:22 AM
just to push the image of McCann as victims - IMO

I think its a reasonable opinion to see them as victims of a smear campaign by amaral and others. Having said that  I think amarals poor understanding of the evidence has convinced him hes right
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Brietta on March 29, 2021, 11:04:12 AM
I think its a reasonable opinion to see them as victims of a smear campaign by amaral and others. Having said that  I think amarals poor understanding of the evidence has convinced him hes right

My opinion is that one need go no further than http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=12011.msg646304#msg646304 to check out on the veracity of the perpetuation of the smear campaign against the McCanns to which you refer; with no respect for the circumstances which brought them to the ECHR or to the present agonising wait for the result of the German investigation into the fate of their daughter.

The McCanns were never responsible for the perilous state of Amaral's financial affairs.  He owed everyone from the Portuguese government to the banks, to his brother and goodness knows how many in between.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on March 29, 2021, 11:14:32 AM
You really do need to provide cites for
  • Madeleine's Fund has paid some of the costs the McCanns were ordered to pay by the courts.
  • It's paid Duarte's fees also.
The McCanns had absolutely nothing to do with the financial mess Amaral had got himself into, he managed all of that perfectly well by himself.
Snip
Kate and Gerald McCann respond to Goncalo Amaral, 28 February 2012  Jornal da Regiao - Oeiras

Goncalo Amaral got rich at the expense of the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, and it is known today that the profits derived from spreading, via all open and available media to the ex-inspector coordinator of the case investigation, were, within only one year, at least and demonstrably, in the order of €342,111.86.

From the cautionary injunction ordered by the 1st Civil Court of Lisbon, Goncalo Amaral's moiety was frozen in the single share he held in his single-name society, not preventing him from continuing to work nor preventing the referred gentleman from continuing to write or engage in other tasks that he sees fit, as a citizen, even with a tainted criminal record.
However, no apprehension was made of goods or financial values, which were held by that society.
This society, in no year since it was established in 2008, has ever presented, even, its public accounts, contrary to what it should have done.

From the amounts received from copyright, above mentioned and related with the publication of the book "The Truth of The Lie" and with the aired TVI documentary and the DVD sold with the newspaper "Correio da Manha", and other activities engaged in by ex-inspector Goncalo Amaral, as well as the rights of at least six editions of the book in foreign languages, no amount was seized.

With regards to the villa that Goncalo Amaral had in Urbanizacao Cerro Azul, in Quelfes, there aren't any losses to the referred interviewee that are to be attributable to the parents of Madeleine McCann.
In fact, in 2009, there were several mortgages pending on this house as well as a registered asset freezing originating from a lawsuit brought by a brother of Goncalo Amaral against him and his wife, for, demonstrably, as stated in the sentence pronounced by the 2nd Civil Court of Family and Minors Court of the District of Seixal, having sold a house to a third party, after having received the amount they should receive for it, from the mentioned brother, who had helped them pay previous debts.

The parents of Madeleine McCann got to know about such action after their intervention in this was raised by the enforcement agent in charge, a person who also seems to have some important information about what is explained above.
About this house there were pending asset freezings originated by the tax authorities, as the interviewee in question, despite being a civil servant, had tax problems, long before the publication of the book and of the documentary.
Currently this house is owned by Banco Espirito Santo, one of the creditors, with visible credit problems with the referred interviewee, long before the publication of the book, and, therefore, the actions brought by the respondents.

About the "Jaguar" vehicle with licence plate 28-FB-58, which at the date of the process was owned by the single-name society mentioned, was, on January 21, 2010 sold to a third party and on whose name it is currently registered, so that neither the parents of Madeleine McCann nor any of the several other creditors had the possibility to use it to cover the various debts incurred by the referred, repeating, long before the book's publication.

As for the pension that the former inspector receives, in the amount of € 2,039.16, it's being deducted from it a percentage of less than 0.1% of the known values received by the ex-inspector for the book and documentary, which he delivered finished to his publishers even before the criminal process, which was under judicial secrecy, had been archived, thus disrespecting the ex-inspector, in this as in other aspects, duties incumbent to him, even in the situation of retirement. Moreover, on this pension, there has previously been executed a seizure, originated in a process by the Finance Services of Olhao, for tax debts.


It clearly states in the Madeleine's Fund accounts for Y/E March 2017 that the sum of £ 51,718 owing to 'Other creditors' includes costs due to Isabel Duarte relating to the libel action brought by Gerald and Kate McCann against Amaral.
https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/06248215/filing-history

It also states in the Y/E March 2014 accounts that the Fund paid the expenses of the witnesses the McCanns called to Lisbon to give evidence in the libel action against Amaral.
https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/06248215/filing-history

Although the payments of the costs ordered by the Supreme Court aren't specifically mentioned in the accounts, my opinion is that they were met by the Fund in addition to paying the lawyer's fees and the witness's costs.

As to your inclusion of a newspaper article mandated by the McCann couple, obviously it attacks Amaral or they wouldn't have authorised it.

'Kate and Gerald McCann respond to Goncalo Amaral Jornal da Regiao - Oeiras

 Isabel Costa Pereira
Mandated by Gerald and Kate McCann'
https://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/id408.htm
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 29, 2021, 11:16:44 AM
just to push the image of McCann as victims - IMO

When in reality, if anyone's a victim in this case, it's me for having to put up with hearing about the McCanns & their daughter for the past 13 years. Oh, and Christian Brueckner, he's a victim too.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Eleanor on March 29, 2021, 11:18:05 AM
My opinion is that one need go no further than http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=12011.msg646304#msg646304 to check out on the veracity of the perpetuation of the smear campaign against the McCanns to which you refer; with no respect for the circumstances which brought them to the ECHR or to the present agonising wait for the result of the German investigation into the fate of their daughter.

The McCanns were never responsible for the perilous state of Amaral's financial affairs.  He owed everyone from the Portuguese government to the banks, to his brother and goodness knows how many in between.

Some were incurred even before Madeleine was born.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on March 29, 2021, 11:20:02 AM
My opinion is that one need go no further than http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=12011.msg646304#msg646304 to check out on the veracity of the perpetuation of the smear campaign against the McCanns to which you refer; with no respect for the circumstances which brought them to the ECHR or to the present agonising wait for the result of the German investigation into the fate of their daughter.

The McCanns were never responsible for the perilous state of Amaral's financial affairs.  He owed everyone from the Portuguese government to the banks, to his brother and goodness knows how many in between.

It's not a matter of who was responsible for Amaral's financial state, my point was that taking out a freezing injunction can have consequences including compensation. Do you have any thoughts as to why the Sun seems to believe compensation is due to Amaral?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on March 29, 2021, 11:22:39 AM
When in reality, if anyone's a victim in this case, it's me for having to put up with hearing about the McCanns & their daughter for the past 13 years. Oh, and Christian Brueckner, he's a victim too.
And yet you must be a real masochist as you seem to delight in frequenting a forum all about the McCann case, when if it really distressed you that much you would steer well clear of any mention of them or their daughter. 
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Eleanor on March 29, 2021, 11:24:04 AM
It's not a matter of who was responsible for Amaral's financial state, my point was that taking out a freezing injunction can have consequences including compensation. Do you have any thoughts as to why the Sun seems to believe compensation is due to Amaral?

It is of interest when clearly The McCanns were not responsible, after you suggested that they were.

Amaral should try suing all of the various other bodies to whom he owed large sums.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on March 29, 2021, 12:40:59 PM
It is of interest when clearly The McCanns were not responsible, after you suggested that they were.

Amaral should try suing all of the various other bodies to whom he owed large sums.

I'm trying to understand why the Sun seems convinced that the McCanns owe compensation to Amaral.

"Kate and Gerry, both 50, won a 2015 libel case against him but it was later overturned and Amaral was awarded compo."
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/7281872/madeline-mcann-fund-750k-case/

There are no records suggesting that Amaral was awarded 'compo', just the allegations in the Sun.


Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Eleanor on March 29, 2021, 12:55:08 PM
I'm trying to understand why the Sun seems convinced that the McCanns owe compensation to Amaral.

"Kate and Gerry, both 50, won a 2015 libel case against him but it was later overturned and Amaral was awarded compo."
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/7281872/madeline-mcann-fund-750k-case/

There are no records suggesting that Amaral was awarded 'compo', just the allegations in the Sun.

Let me know when you find out.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on March 29, 2021, 01:32:50 PM
I'm trying to understand why the Sun seems convinced that the McCanns owe compensation to Amaral.

"Kate and Gerry, both 50, won a 2015 libel case against him but it was later overturned and Amaral was awarded compo."
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/7281872/madeline-mcann-fund-750k-case/

There are no records suggesting that Amaral was awarded 'compo', just the allegations in the Sun.
There's only one way to find out and that's to ask the Sun journalist who wrote the article.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Eleanor on March 29, 2021, 01:41:49 PM
There's only one way to find out and that's to ask the Sun journalist who wrote the article.

Goodness me, what a good idea.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: kizzy on March 29, 2021, 01:43:47 PM
So despite the McCanns allegedly bringing out the worst in you that when it comes to their legal action at the ECHR you don’t actively want them to fail. Yes, and I’m sure you posted that while riding on the back of a flying pig.

IMO the settlement thing is what has been going on for the last two and a half months.

As for the mccs legal action do I care what happens at ECHR ...no.

As for them bringing the worst out in me is that usually, I am a caring compassionate/sympathetic person ...with them I have no sympathy whatsoever...or care whether they win or loose.

It's like you VS ....you are awful - but I like you.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on March 29, 2021, 02:04:19 PM
IMO the settlement thing is what has been going on for the last two and a half months.

As for the mccs legal action do I care what happens at ECHR ...no.

As for them bringing the worst out in me is that usually, I am a caring compassionate/sympathetic person ...with them I have no sympathy whatsoever...or care whether they win or loose.

It's like you VS ....you are awful - but I like you.
Thank you.  I like you too.  I think you are a decent person, on the whole. 
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Brietta on March 29, 2021, 03:31:00 PM
It clearly states in the Madeleine's Fund accounts for Y/E March 2017 that the sum of £ 51,718 owing to 'Other creditors' includes costs due to Isabel Duarte relating to the libel action brought by Gerald and Kate McCann against Amaral.
https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/06248215/filing-history

It also states in the Y/E March 2014 accounts that the Fund paid the expenses of the witnesses the McCanns called to Lisbon to give evidence in the libel action against Amaral.
https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/06248215/filing-history

Although the payments of the costs ordered by the Supreme Court aren't specifically mentioned in the accounts, my opinion is that they were met by the Fund in addition to paying the lawyer's fees and the witness's costs.

As to your inclusion of a newspaper article mandated by the McCann couple, obviously it attacks Amaral or they wouldn't have authorised it.

'Kate and Gerald McCann respond to Goncalo Amaral Jornal da Regiao - Oeiras

 Isabel Costa Pereira
Mandated by Gerald and Kate McCann'
https://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/id408.htm

You have posted ~
"It's only a guess on my part but I wonder if it's connected to the fact that a freezing injunction taken out by the McCanns stopped Amaral from accessing his money for years. Perhaps he has the right to be compensated for that."

Which parodies the rubbish printed in the Portuguese media and picked up and propagated by internet gossip much as you have done in your post which necessitated the McCanns having to take steps to set the record straight on the fact that
Is it any wonder the McCanns had to take recourse to the ECHR when the propaganda job carried out on them at all levels in Portugal was so effective that individuals such as yourself believe it and post about it until this day.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Eleanor on March 29, 2021, 03:46:42 PM
You have posted ~
"It's only a guess on my part but I wonder if it's connected to the fact that a freezing injunction taken out by the McCanns stopped Amaral from accessing his money for years. Perhaps he has the right to be compensated for that."

Which parodies the rubbish printed in the Portuguese media and picked up and propagated by internet gossip much as you have done in your post which necessitated the McCanns having to take steps to set the record straight on the fact that
  • their court action against the libels circulated was not responsible for allegations of Amaral's penury
  • Amaral was in dire financial straights and enormous debt before the McCanns ever set foot in Portugal

Is it any wonder the McCanns had to take recourse to the ECHR when the propaganda job carried out on them at all levels in Portugal was so effective that individuals such as yourself believe it and post about it until this day.

I agree.  And I am getting very fed up with this misinformation.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Brietta on March 29, 2021, 03:52:32 PM
IMO the settlement thing is what has been going on for the last two and a half months.

As for the mccs legal action do I care what happens at ECHR ...no.

As for them bringing the worst out in me is that usually, I am a caring compassionate/sympathetic person ...with them I have no sympathy whatsoever...or care whether they win or loose.

It's like you VS ....you are awful - but I like you.

The primary purpose of Kate and Gerry McCann is Madeleine ~ I am always impressed by the cavalier sceptic attitude which reduces her to less than a footnote in their diatribe of hatred for her parents.  All in line with the absolute panic engendered by the mere thought of the McCanns having recourse to the ECHR that some even denied the possibility it could happen 😊
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on March 29, 2021, 04:03:17 PM
The primary purpose of Kate and Gerry McCann is Madeleine ~ I am always impressed by the cavalier sceptic attitude which reduces her to less than a footnote in their diatribe of hatred for her parents.  All in line with the absolute panic engendered by the mere thought of the McCanns having recourse to the ECHR that some even denied the possibility it could happen 😊
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Brietta on March 29, 2021, 04:05:20 PM
I agree.  And I am getting very fed up with this misinformation.

I believe that the author of an ebook on another forum specialising in promulgating such misinformation ( really just downright lies when it boils down to it) has withdrawn the last two chapters for rewriting.

Never having read any of it I don't have an opinion short of wondering what motivates someone to write something where the concluding chapters require to be excised ... maybe the original 'research' wasn't up to scratch?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 29, 2021, 04:12:07 PM
The primary purpose of Kate and Gerry McCann is Madeleine ~ I am always impressed by the cavalier sceptic attitude which reduces her to less than a footnote in their diatribe of hatred for her parents.  All in line with the absolute panic engendered by the mere thought of the McCanns having recourse to the ECHR that some even denied the possibility it could happen 😊

Unless they fancy a drink & some snacks.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: kizzy on March 29, 2021, 05:00:04 PM
The primary purpose of Kate and Gerry McCann is Madeleine ~ I am always impressed by the cavalier sceptic attitude which reduces her to less than a footnote in their diatribe of hatred for her parents.  All in line with the absolute panic engendered by the mere thought of the McCanns having recourse to the ECHR that some even denied the possibility it could happen 😊

Can you point out where in my post I mentioned hatred B.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on March 29, 2021, 05:11:31 PM
You have posted ~
"It's only a guess on my part but I wonder if it's connected to the fact that a freezing injunction taken out by the McCanns stopped Amaral from accessing his money for years. Perhaps he has the right to be compensated for that."

Which parodies the rubbish printed in the Portuguese media and picked up and propagated by internet gossip much as you have done in your post which necessitated the McCanns having to take steps to set the record straight on the fact that
  • their court action against the libels circulated was not responsible for allegations of Amaral's penury
  • Amaral was in dire financial straights and enormous debt before the McCanns ever set foot in Portugal

Is it any wonder the McCanns had to take recourse to the ECHR when the propaganda job carried out on them at all levels in Portugal was so effective that individuals such as yourself believe it and post about it until this day.

Your point seems to be that the McCanns weren't responsible for Amaral's 'penury'. Interesting though that may be, it fails to deal with my point, which was why the Sun seems to believe that compensation of £750,000 is owed to Amaral. Perhaps we should just believe the Sun?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Eleanor on March 29, 2021, 05:23:03 PM
Your point seems to be that the McCanns weren't responsible for Amaral's 'penury'. Interesting though that may be, it fails to deal with my point, which was why the Sun seems to believe that compensation of £750,000 is owed to Amaral. Perhaps we should just believe the Sun?

What difference will it make?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Brietta on March 29, 2021, 05:31:31 PM
Can you point out where in my post I mentioned hatred B.
Can you point out where in my post I mentioned you did K.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: kizzy on March 29, 2021, 05:46:57 PM
Can you point out where in my post I mentioned you did K.


Well, the clue is it was in reply to my post you mentioned hatred.

quote

attitude which reduces her to less than a footnote in their diatribe of hatred for her parents.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on March 29, 2021, 07:05:36 PM
What difference will it make?

The difference between the Fund hanging on to it's £750,000 or losing it all to Amaral.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Eleanor on March 29, 2021, 07:19:50 PM
The difference between the Fund hanging on to it's £750,000 or losing it all to Amaral.

This will make absolutely no difference to me.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on March 29, 2021, 07:21:59 PM
The difference between the Fund hanging on to it's £750,000 or losing it all to Amaral.
The ECHR ruling will either find in favour of the McCanns and they will receive compensation or it won’t and they won’t.  If there is an unsettled issue of what’s due to Amaral then presumably that would be a separate matter.  IMO.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: jassi on March 29, 2021, 07:27:07 PM
This will make absolutely no difference to me.

Nor me, but I'm sure that even the thought of it will upset some.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on March 29, 2021, 07:29:22 PM
Nor me, but I'm sure that even the thought of it will upset some.
Yeah, it will definitely ruin my life if Amaral gets his hands on the Fund dosh.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Eleanor on March 29, 2021, 07:33:12 PM
Yeah, it will definitely ruin my life if Amaral gets his hands on the Fund dosh.

I wish you hadn't put it quite like that.  I might have to take to making wax models.

Now there's a thought.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 29, 2021, 08:19:00 PM

What do the McCanns need a fund for anyway?

Aren't the Portuguese, British & German tax payers already funding the 'search'.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: jassi on March 29, 2021, 08:23:43 PM
What do the McCanns need a fund for anyway?

Aren't the Portuguese, British & German tax payers already funding the 'search'.

I believe one of the uncles said it was for a fighting fund - which I always thought was a strange turn of phrase.

I wonder who was perceived as the enemy so early in the game?
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/may/16/ukcrime3
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on March 29, 2021, 08:34:51 PM
I believe one of the uncles said it was for a fighting fund - which I always thought was a strange turn of phrase.

I wonder who was perceived as the enemy so early in the game?
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/may/16/ukcrime3
Have you never heard the expression “Fighting Fund” before?  The “enemy” was the absence of Madeleine, at the hands of a stranger abductor, certainly as far as the person who referred to it as such was concerned I’m sure.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: barrier on March 29, 2021, 09:17:01 PM
What do the McCanns need a fund for anyway?

Aren't the Portuguese, British & German tax payers already funding the 'search'.

Its for when the cops end it and pack their bags with no resolution.

Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 29, 2021, 09:49:06 PM
Its for when the cops end it and pack their bags with no resolution.

As if there'd be anything left to investigate. The case is solved, so we're told.

Why would the McCanns doubt Brueckners guilt, given the overwhelming & irrefutable evidence he killed Maddie?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Angelo222 on March 29, 2021, 09:54:23 PM
What do the McCanns need a fund for anyway?

Aren't the Portuguese, British & German tax payers already funding the 'search'.

According to the parents the Fund is there to provide financial help in any future search for Maddie for when the various police forces eventually give up.  It was also stated that the money (if any left) would go to help in the search for other missing chdren once Maddie's fate was determined.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 29, 2021, 09:59:59 PM
According to the parents the Fund is there to provide financial help in any future search for Maddie for when the various police forces eventually give up.  It was also stated that the money (if any left) would go to help in the search for other missing children once Maddie's fate was determined.

I really hope they fund the search for Joana.  &%54%
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on March 29, 2021, 10:02:16 PM
As if there'd be anything left to investigate. The case is solved, so we're told.

Why would the McCanns doubt Brueckners guilt, given the overwhelming & irrefutable evidence he killed Maddie?
It will be interesting to see you explaining why the (iyo) child’s killers would continue to fund the search for their child’s killer when CB will never be cleared of committing the crime.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on March 29, 2021, 10:03:36 PM
I really hope they fund the search for Joana.  &%54%
Me too.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on March 30, 2021, 07:56:29 AM
Yeah, it will definitely ruin my life if Amaral gets his hands on the Fund dosh.

Ironically most of the Fund 'dosh' as you put it now consists mostly of money raised by sales of Kate McCann's book. 

Y/E 2019 £ 1,239
Y/E 2018 £ 84,096
Y/E 2014 £400,000
Previously £ 950,000 (mentioned in 2014 accounts)

The problem is that those funds are restricted and aren't available to be used for anything but the direct costs of the search for and the investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine. Consequently the Sun's suggestion that the Fund could be wiped out by having to pay compensation to Amaral is wrong. The Fund's assets are protected, so the Directors aren't able to pay £750,000 to Amaral without Kate McCann's permission.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on March 30, 2021, 08:03:37 AM
Ironically most of the Fund 'dosh' as you put it now consists mostly of money raised by sales of Kate McCann's book. 

Y/E 2019 £ 1,239
Y/E 2018 £ 84,096
Y/E 2014 £400,000
Previously £ 950,000 (mentioned in 2014 accounts)

The problem is that those funds are restricted and aren't available to be used for anything but the direct costs of the search for and the investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine. Consequently the Sun's suggestion that the Fund could be wiped out by having to pay compensation to Amaral is wrong. The Fund's assets are protected, so the Directors aren't able to pay £750,000 to Amaral without Kate McCann's permission.
And your point is?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Eleanor on March 30, 2021, 08:27:51 AM
Me too.

Mr Too Also.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Brietta on March 30, 2021, 10:25:44 AM
Yet again we are mulling over old shibboleths ... does the ECHR have an interest in Madeleine's Fund?  if not why is it under discussion yet again ... yet again ... and again ...and again 👀
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Eleanor on March 30, 2021, 10:45:27 AM
Yet again we are mulling over old shibboleths ... does the ECHR have an interest in Madeleine's Fund?  if not why is it under discussion yet again ... yet again ... and again ...and again 👀

The ECHR won't be even remotely interested in The Madeleine Fund or in who has to pay whatever.  But whatever happens the McCann Bashing will go on... and on... and on. 

The Fund has always been an easy target and if The McCanns win then there will be screeches and demands to know what will happen to The Money, as if there is anything anyone can do about it.  Therein lies the anger.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on March 30, 2021, 10:51:53 AM
Yet again we are mulling over old shibboleths ... does the ECHR have an interest in Madeleine's Fund?  if not why is it under discussion yet again ... yet again ... and again ...and again 👀

According to the Sun article which triggered this discussion, there would be no ECHR involvement without the possibility that the McCanns would have to pay Amaral a huge amount of compensation;

And they went to the ECHR in a final effort to avoid paying Amaral £750,000 in compensation after accusing him of libel.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/14472108/madeleine-mccann-parents-friendly-settlement/

I don't know how applying to the ECHR can affect any compension payments due to Amaral as the Sun doesn't explain why and how it reached the above conclusion.
However, unless the McCanns intend to pay this supposed compensation themselves, then the Fund, already involved in funding the libel trial, will clearly be implicated.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on March 30, 2021, 11:06:23 AM
According to the Sun article which triggered this discussion, there would be no ECHR involvement without the possibility that the McCanns would have to pay Amaral a huge amount of compensation;

And they went to the ECHR in a final effort to avoid paying Amaral £750,000 in compensation after accusing him of libel.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/14472108/madeleine-mccann-parents-friendly-settlement/

I don't know how applying to the ECHR can affect any compension payments due to Amaral as the Sun doesn't explain why and how it reached the above conclusion.
However, unless the McCanns intend to pay this supposed compensation themselves, then the Fund, already involved in funding the libel trial, will clearly be implicated.
As no one here knows the answers to your questions I would strongly recommend you take your concerns to Tracey Kandohla and perhaps she can clarify the situation to your satisfaction. 
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Eleanor on March 30, 2021, 11:26:07 AM
According to the Sun article which triggered this discussion, there would be no ECHR involvement without the possibility that the McCanns would have to pay Amaral a huge amount of compensation;

And they went to the ECHR in a final effort to avoid paying Amaral £750,000 in compensation after accusing him of libel.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/14472108/madeleine-mccann-parents-friendly-settlement/

I don't know how applying to the ECHR can affect any compension payments due to Amaral as the Sun doesn't explain why and how it reached the above conclusion.
However, unless the McCanns intend to pay this supposed compensation themselves, then the Fund, already involved in funding the libel trial, will clearly be implicated.

Nothing to do with Justice and Human Rights then?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on March 30, 2021, 12:40:09 PM
Nothing to do with Justice and Human Rights then?

I don't know how 'friendly settlements' fit into concepts of justice and human rights, to be honest. The Portuguese courts and the McCanns differed so significantly about these concepts that a friendly settlement seems impossible in my opinion.

The Portuguese courts examined all the McCann's arguments and dismissed them. The McCanns then decided to apply to the ECHR for a ruling. I can see no basis for a resolution by negotiation, because I think the two sides are too far apart. That's just my opinion, obviously.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Eleanor on March 30, 2021, 12:43:00 PM
I don't know how 'friendly settlements' fit into concepts of justice and human rights, to be honest. The Portuguese courts and the McCanns differed so significantly about these concepts that a friendly settlement seems impossible in my opinion.

The Portuguese courts examined all the McCann's arguments and dismissed them. The McCanns then decided to apply to the ECHR for a ruling. I can see no basis for a resolution by negotiation, because I think the two sides are too far apart. That's just my opinion, obviously.

I do so agree.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: jassi on March 30, 2021, 01:12:30 PM
I don't know how 'friendly settlements' fit into concepts of justice and human rights, to be honest. The Portuguese courts and the McCanns differed so significantly about these concepts that a friendly settlement seems impossible in my opinion.

The Portuguese courts examined all the McCann's arguments and dismissed them. The McCanns then decided to apply to the ECHR for a ruling. I can see no basis for a resolution by negotiation, because I think the two sides are too far apart. That's just my opinion, obviously.

If the Portuguese have erred over their interpretation of Human Rights, I can't see that they would want to concede that on the basis of a 'friendly agreement'.
They would want a definitive ruling from the Court.
IMO
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Eleanor on March 30, 2021, 01:25:40 PM
If the Portuguese have erred over their interpretation of Human Rights, I can't see that they would want to concede that on the basis of a 'friendly agreement'.
They would want a definitive ruling from the Court.
IMO

Haven't they had enough of those already?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on March 30, 2021, 01:32:59 PM
I don't know how 'friendly settlements' fit into concepts of justice and human rights, to be honest. The Portuguese courts and the McCanns differed so significantly about these concepts that a friendly settlement seems impossible in my opinion.

The Portuguese courts examined all the McCann's arguments and dismissed them. The McCanns then decided to apply to the ECHR for a ruling. I can see no basis for a resolution by negotiation, because I think the two sides are too far apart. That's just my opinion, obviously.

In the Uk we have pre action protocol and it seems to me that this is what is meant by  afriendly settlement. it seems its standard procedure and the McCanns are not being urged to settle.

This is the McCanns v Portugal and the ECHr will want Portugals response to the McCanns claims. I dont see a settlement being made and it will imo then move to the next stage where the ECHR will look at the claims being made. I dont see any chance of it being declared inadmissible based on the rules of admissibility and previous case law
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: jassi on March 30, 2021, 01:43:52 PM
Haven't they had enough of those already?

?  Enough of what ?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: misty on March 30, 2021, 02:04:58 PM
https://drkarsai.hu/en/friendly-settlement-procedure/


2019. MARCH 22. | KARSAI DÁNIEL


The European Court of Human Rights is an institution burdened by a heavy backlog. The Court does everything possible to issue substantive judgements to settle human rights issues raised by the applicants. Whether we like it or not, this is a time-consuming task and the human resources of the Court are limited. As a result, in certain cases judgements are delivered after a longer period of time. The Court wishes to resolve this problem by using the so-called friendly settlement of the parties, a tool that has been widely implemented in its procedures, in a new way.

The friendly settlement
The procedure before the Court is a litigation. Like in every other litigation, the parties are entitled to reach a settlement during the procedure. Theoretically, it can be initiated by either party, but in the vast majority of cases it is the Court who suggests to the parties to settle the case. In its motion the Court proposes a concrete compensation amount as well. If the parties accept it, they each sign a declaration. In one of them the state concerned acknowledges the human rights violation and undertakes to pay the compensation established. In the other the Applicant accepts the proposed sum and undertakes not to initiate another compensation procedure for the injustice suffered, since it has been remedied.



Such friendly settlements were used so far in routine cases in the Court’s practice. These were cases where the injustice, being the subject of the application, has already been dealt with by the Court, which issued a clear decision on the legal question. Concerning Hungary, such issues were the applications concerning the excessive length of civil proceedings where the Court established that it was a systemic problem.

In a new complaint, where the “only” new element is the applicant, there is no point in delivering a new formal decision, since it would not bring anything new. Since the violation is clear-cut and it is not disputed by the state, it is simpler to close the case with a settlement. The great advantage is that it shortens the procedure with 1-1.5 years, so the applicant can have his/her compensation earlier. At the first sight it may seem strange that the Court gives such a weight to aspects of judicial effectiveness. However, we have to understand that the Court pursues the practice of adjudication by principles and it is also tasked with providing theoretical guidance in human rights cases that goes beyond the actual complaint. If it spends too much time with cases containing already decided human rights issues, there is danger of not having sufficient time to address the new human rights challenges.

The new practice of the friendly settlement
In light of the above, it is not surprising that the Court announced at the end of last year that it wished to extend the range of cases closed with friendly settlements, initially for a trial period. The most important change is that from now on the Court will not only offer the settlement to the Parties in “routine” cases, but this will become the main rule: the Court will try to use it in almost every case. The parties will have 12 weeks to accept the friendly settlement and if they do not intend to do so, they will have another 12 weeks to put forward observations on the merits.

So far we do not have enough information as to the contents of the agreements, since the new practice has just been introduced and the Court’s letters, sent to the parties of such cases, are limited in content. They only say that the Parties are requested to make statements on the matter with the help of the Court’s Registry. Previously, agreements stated the acknowledgement of the infringement of rights and the obligation to pay a compensation for damages. Maybe the new procedure allows for more sophisticated outcomes, such as the abrogation of the infringing law or the actual discontinuation of the infringing situation, etc.

Exceptionally, the Court will not offer this option to the parties – especially when it is obvious that the application raises a new issue regarding which the Government will not accept condemnation without a fight.

The above practice will result in the acceleration of the proceedings and in less “meritorious” judgements. However, we have to underline that this does not affect the level of human rights protection itself, since the state concerned acknowledges the prejudice caused and it will pay compensation as well. In our view, the lack of a formal meritorious judgement will be more than compensated by the fact that our case ends much sooner.

Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on March 30, 2021, 05:37:57 PM
https://drkarsai.hu/en/friendly-settlement-procedure/


2019. MARCH 22. | KARSAI DÁNIEL


The European Court of Human Rights is an institution burdened by a heavy backlog. The Court does everything possible to issue substantive judgements to settle human rights issues raised by the applicants. Whether we like it or not, this is a time-consuming task and the human resources of the Court are limited. As a result, in certain cases judgements are delivered after a longer period of time. The Court wishes to resolve this problem by using the so-called friendly settlement of the parties, a tool that has been widely implemented in its procedures, in a new way.

The friendly settlement
The procedure before the Court is a litigation. Like in every other litigation, the parties are entitled to reach a settlement during the procedure. Theoretically, it can be initiated by either party, but in the vast majority of cases it is the Court who suggests to the parties to settle the case. In its motion the Court proposes a concrete compensation amount as well. If the parties accept it, they each sign a declaration. In one of them the state concerned acknowledges the human rights violation and undertakes to pay the compensation established. In the other the Applicant accepts the proposed sum and undertakes not to initiate another compensation procedure for the injustice suffered, since it has been remedied.



Such friendly settlements were used so far in routine cases in the Court’s practice. These were cases where the injustice, being the subject of the application, has already been dealt with by the Court, which issued a clear decision on the legal question. Concerning Hungary, such issues were the applications concerning the excessive length of civil proceedings where the Court established that it was a systemic problem.

In a new complaint, where the “only” new element is the applicant, there is no point in delivering a new formal decision, since it would not bring anything new. Since the violation is clear-cut and it is not disputed by the state, it is simpler to close the case with a settlement. The great advantage is that it shortens the procedure with 1-1.5 years, so the applicant can have his/her compensation earlier. At the first sight it may seem strange that the Court gives such a weight to aspects of judicial effectiveness. However, we have to understand that the Court pursues the practice of adjudication by principles and it is also tasked with providing theoretical guidance in human rights cases that goes beyond the actual complaint. If it spends too much time with cases containing already decided human rights issues, there is danger of not having sufficient time to address the new human rights challenges.

The new practice of the friendly settlement
In light of the above, it is not surprising that the Court announced at the end of last year that it wished to extend the range of cases closed with friendly settlements, initially for a trial period. The most important change is that from now on the Court will not only offer the settlement to the Parties in “routine” cases, but this will become the main rule: the Court will try to use it in almost every case. The parties will have 12 weeks to accept the friendly settlement and if they do not intend to do so, they will have another 12 weeks to put forward observations on the merits.

So far we do not have enough information as to the contents of the agreements, since the new practice has just been introduced and the Court’s letters, sent to the parties of such cases, are limited in content. They only say that the Parties are requested to make statements on the matter with the help of the Court’s Registry. Previously, agreements stated the acknowledgement of the infringement of rights and the obligation to pay a compensation for damages. Maybe the new procedure allows for more sophisticated outcomes, such as the abrogation of the infringing law or the actual discontinuation of the infringing situation, etc.

Exceptionally, the Court will not offer this option to the parties – especially when it is obvious that the application raises a new issue regarding which the Government will not accept condemnation without a fight.

The above practice will result in the acceleration of the proceedings and in less “meritorious” judgements. However, we have to underline that this does not affect the level of human rights protection itself, since the state concerned acknowledges the prejudice caused and it will pay compensation as well. In our view, the lack of a formal meritorious judgement will be more than compensated by the fact that our case ends much sooner.

Interesting... So Portugal could simply accept that the McCanns human rights were abused... Accept the SC was wrong and offer to pay the McCanns compensation
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on March 30, 2021, 05:47:06 PM
Interesting... So Portugal could simply accept that the McCanns human rights were abused... Accept the SC was wrong and offer to pay the McCanns compensation
Who in Portugal would make that decision?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Eleanor on March 30, 2021, 05:54:38 PM

Fascinating.  That wouldn't half set the cat amongst the pigeons.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on March 30, 2021, 07:13:53 PM
Who in Portugal would make that decision?

In the UK it would be the Attorney General... I presume Portugal has an equivalent
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on March 30, 2021, 08:03:33 PM
In the UK it would be the Attorney General... I presume Portugal has an equivalent

Procurador-Geral da República
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 31, 2021, 07:53:52 AM
Interesting... So Portugal could simply accept that the McCanns human rights were abused... Accept the SC was wrong and offer to pay the McCanns compensation
And IMO the settlement would have a non-disclosure clause, and no one would know what was agreed to.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on March 31, 2021, 08:02:20 AM
And IMO the settlement would have a non-disclosure clause, and no one would know what was agreed to.

I don't see that as a possibility.. For the McCanns there would have to be a public acceptance of the failings of the Portuguese justice system.. And rightly so.. All my opinion
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Eleanor on March 31, 2021, 08:06:17 AM
And IMO the settlement would have a non-disclosure clause, and no one would know what was agreed to.

Almost certainly, at least regarding the financial settlement.  But Portugal would have to concede defeat.  But I don't think that any money in itself matters.

It would have to be paid into somewhere.  Unless The McCanns get to spend it themselves.  And I can't say that I care about that.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on March 31, 2021, 08:39:24 AM
I don't see that as a possibility.. For the McCanns there would have to be a public acceptance of the failings of the Portuguese justice system.. And rightly so.. All my opinion

A friendly settlement doesn't have to include an admission of violating human rights. Here is an example;

“The Government express their deepest regret at the death of Mr Hüseyin Köksal and the events leading up to it. This statement does not constitute an acknowledgement from the side of the Government that the Netherlands have violated the European Convention on Human Rights.

The Government offers to pay, on an ex gratia basis, 140,000 Netherlands guilders to Messrs Ercan and Salih Köksal with a view to securing a friendly settlement of the application to the European Court of Human Rights, registered under no. 31725/96. This sum shall cover any pecuniary and non-pecuniary damage as well as costs, and it will be payable immediately after the notification of the judgment delivered by the Court pursuant to Article 39 of the European Convention on Human Rights. This payment will constitute the final resolution of the case.

The Government further undertake not to request the referral of the case to the Grand Chamber under Article 43 § 1 of the Convention.”
https://hudoc.echr.coe.int/eng#{%22itemid%22:[%22001-59348%22]}

Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Eleanor on March 31, 2021, 08:55:13 AM
A friendly settlement doesn't have to include an admission of violating human rights. Here is an example;

“The Government express their deepest regret at the death of Mr Hüseyin Köksal and the events leading up to it. This statement does not constitute an acknowledgement from the side of the Government that the Netherlands have violated the European Convention on Human Rights.

The Government offers to pay, on an ex gratia basis, 140,000 Netherlands guilders to Messrs Ercan and Salih Köksal with a view to securing a friendly settlement of the application to the European Court of Human Rights, registered under no. 31725/96. This sum shall cover any pecuniary and non-pecuniary damage as well as costs, and it will be payable immediately after the notification of the judgment delivered by the Court pursuant to Article 39 of the European Convention on Human Rights. This payment will constitute the final resolution of the case.

The Government further undertake not to request the referral of the case to the Grand Chamber under Article 43 § 1 of the Convention.”
https://hudoc.echr.coe.int/eng#{%22itemid%22:[%22001-59348%22]}

Well that's an interesting one, but what does it mean?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on March 31, 2021, 09:21:34 AM
Well that's an interesting one, but what does it mean?
It sounds like some states are prepared to pay their way out of acknowledging breaches they know they have committed.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on March 31, 2021, 09:25:09 AM
A friendly settlement doesn't have to include an admission of violating human rights. Here is an example;

“The Government express their deepest regret at the death of Mr Hüseyin Köksal and the events leading up to it. This statement does not constitute an acknowledgement from the side of the Government that the Netherlands have violated the European Convention on Human Rights.

The Government offers to pay, on an ex gratia basis, 140,000 Netherlands guilders to Messrs Ercan and Salih Köksal with a view to securing a friendly settlement of the application to the European Court of Human Rights, registered under no. 31725/96. This sum shall cover any pecuniary and non-pecuniary damage as well as costs, and it will be payable immediately after the notification of the judgment delivered by the Court pursuant to Article 39 of the European Convention on Human Rights. This payment will constitute the final resolution of the case.

The Government further undertake not to request the referral of the case to the Grand Chamber under Article 43 § 1 of the Convention.”
https://hudoc.echr.coe.int/eng#{%22itemid%22:[%22001-59348%22]}

I never said it did... I don't think the McCanns would accept a settlement that didn't.... And I don't blame them
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on March 31, 2021, 09:33:49 AM
The court of the first instance awarded the McCanns substantial damages. If its shown the SC decision was flawed....will the McCanns be entitled to those damages.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on March 31, 2021, 09:46:18 AM
I never said it did... I don't think the McCanns would accept a settlement that didn't.... And I don't blame them

If the McCanns refuse what the ECHR considers a reasonable offer, they risk having their application struck off the list.

It is common for the European Court actively to become involved in facilitating settlement in a proactive way, and it may consider striking out an application if an applicant is considered “unreasonably” to have refused friendly settlement proposals.
https://www.echr.am/en/functions/representation/friendly-settlements.html#:~:text=The%20friendly%20settlement%20procedure%20in,opportunity%20to%20resolve%20a%20dispute.&text=The%20Court%20will%20usually%20set%20a%20time%20limit%20for%20any%20proposals.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on March 31, 2021, 10:12:29 AM
If the McCanns refuse what the ECHR considers a reasonable offer, they risk having their application struck off the list.

It is common for the European Court actively to become involved in facilitating settlement in a proactive way, and it may consider striking out an application if an applicant is considered “unreasonably” to have refused friendly settlement proposals.
https://www.echr.am/en/functions/representation/friendly-settlements.html#:~:text=The%20friendly%20settlement%20procedure%20in,opportunity%20to%20resolve%20a%20dispute.&text=The%20Court%20will%20usually%20set%20a%20time%20limit%20for%20any%20proposals.

I'm aware of this... I don't see an admission of liability as being unreasonable
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on March 31, 2021, 10:21:54 AM
I'm aware of this... I don't see an admission of liability as being unreasonable

What makes you think Portugal will admit liability?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Eleanor on March 31, 2021, 10:24:16 AM
If the McCanns refuse what the ECHR considers a reasonable offer, they risk having their application struck off the list.

It is common for the European Court actively to become involved in facilitating settlement in a proactive way, and it may consider striking out an application if an applicant is considered “unreasonably” to have refused friendly settlement proposals.
https://www.echr.am/en/functions/representation/friendly-settlements.html#:~:text=The%20friendly%20settlement%20procedure%20in,opportunity%20to%20resolve%20a%20dispute.&text=The%20Court%20will%20usually%20set%20a%20time%20limit%20for%20any%20proposals.

There would be nothing Friendly about it.  First of all Portugal would have to throw Amaral under a bus, followed shortly by The State of Portugal which everyone would know how to interpret.

Whether or not The McCanns would agree to this is not something on which I can pontificate, but I doubt that their application would be thrown out if they were to refuse.  In fact The McCanns would stand to gain more by refusing as Money is very unlikely to be their motive for bringing the Application in the first instance.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: jassi on March 31, 2021, 10:43:14 AM
There would be nothing Friendly about it.  First of all Portugal would have to throw Amaral under a bus, followed shortly by The State of Portugal which everyone would know how to interpret.

Whether or not The McCanns would agree to this is not something on which I can pontificate, but I doubt that their application would be thrown out if they were to refuse.  In fact The McCanns would stand to gain more by refusing as Money is very unlikely to be their motive for bringing the Application in the first instance.

I don't see McCann as the negotiating type.

Not that we'll get a front seat as proceeding take their course, but the outcome will sure beinteresting.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on March 31, 2021, 10:50:15 AM
What makes you think Portugal will admit liability?
I have no idea if they will or will not... Do you
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Eleanor on March 31, 2021, 10:59:23 AM
I don't see McCann as the negotiating type.

Not that we'll get a front seat as proceeding take their course, but the outcome will sure beinteresting.

After nearly fourteen years of the rubbish and misinformation, why should they be?

And as the negotiation would have to come from Portugal, they don't even need to do anything other than to say No.  This would all be down to Portugal.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 31, 2021, 11:27:59 AM
I don't see that as a possibility.. For the McCanns there would have to be a public acceptance of the failings of the Portuguese justice system.. And rightly so.. All my opinion
Both sides will have to be friendly.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on March 31, 2021, 11:28:55 AM
After nearly fourteen years of the rubbish and misinformation, why should they be?

And as the negotiation would have to come from Portugal, they don't even need to do anything other than to say No.  This would all be down to Portugal.

Saying no won't automatically lead to a decision being taken by the ECHR. Saying no to a reasonable offer could lead to their application being struck out and them getting nothing at all.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on March 31, 2021, 11:30:21 AM
Both sides will have to be friendly.
That really doesn't mean anything... I doubt there will be any raised voices.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on March 31, 2021, 11:30:50 AM
I have no idea if they will or will not... Do you

I asked because you seem to be saying that an admission of liability will be required.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on March 31, 2021, 11:33:08 AM
Saying no won't automatically lead to a decision being taken by the ECHR. Saying no to a reasonable offer could lead to their application being struck out and them getting nothing at all.

How would you describe a reasonable offer.
For four years sceptics have been saying they won't go too the ECHR.. their claim will be thrown out... Now its they have to accept a reasonable offer..
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Eleanor on March 31, 2021, 11:34:26 AM
Both sides will have to be friendly.

Why should The MCanns be Friendly?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on March 31, 2021, 11:34:34 AM
I asked because you seem to be saying that an admission of liability will be required.

If you read my posts you will see that I don't think the McCanns will accept an offer that doesn't admit a breach.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 31, 2021, 11:35:41 AM
That really doesn't mean anything... I doubt there will be any raised voices.
Portugal will want to save face and the McCanns want their fund to remain intact.  That's why I think the settlement details would have to be suppressed. 
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Eleanor on March 31, 2021, 11:35:57 AM
Saying no won't automatically lead to a decision being taken by the ECHR. Saying no to a reasonable offer could lead to their application being struck out and them getting nothing at all.

What is a Reasonable Offer?  And I don't mean Money.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Eleanor on March 31, 2021, 11:37:26 AM
I asked because you seem to be saying that an admission of liability will be required.

Of course it will.  What is the point otherwise?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 31, 2021, 11:38:41 AM
What is a Reasonable Offer?  And I don't mean Money.
That could be an assurance that GA won't publish his books in the UK.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Eleanor on March 31, 2021, 11:39:15 AM
How would you describe a reasonable offer.
For four years sceptics have been saying they won't go too the ECHR.. their claim will be thrown out... Now its they have to accept a reasonable offer..

It's all a Get Out Of Jail Card.  It was The McCanns wot dunnit.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on March 31, 2021, 11:39:26 AM
Portugal will want to save face and the McCanns want their fund to remain intact.  That's why I think the settlement details would have to be suppressed.

Portugal has no right to save face.. I think the McCanns want a public admission they have been wronged
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on March 31, 2021, 11:41:34 AM
That could be an assurance that GA won't publish his books in the UK.

He can't anyway and they have no authority to do that
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Eleanor on March 31, 2021, 11:41:46 AM
That could be an assurance that GA won't publish his books in the UK.

There was never any chance of that happening.  Amaral's Book is Libellous.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Eleanor on March 31, 2021, 11:43:50 AM

Wherein does the word "Urge" come into this?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: jassi on March 31, 2021, 11:44:20 AM
Of course it will.  What is the point otherwise?

You  don't always get what you want in life, particularly when it comes to the law.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on March 31, 2021, 12:20:57 PM
How would you describe a reasonable offer.
For four years sceptics have been saying they won't go too the ECHR.. their claim will be thrown out... Now its they have to accept a reasonable offer..

It's been known for quite some time that an application had been submitted. What still isn't known is whether the application has been found to be admissible.

It's not 'sceptics' saying they have to accept a reasonable offer, it's the ECHR; 'reasonable' being defined by the ECHR.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 31, 2021, 12:24:43 PM
How would you describe a reasonable offer.
For four years sceptics have been saying they won't go too the ECHR.. their claim will be thrown out... Now its they have to accept a reasonable offer..

I never said anything of the sort so really you should have used the word some in your claim.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on March 31, 2021, 12:25:32 PM
What is a Reasonable Offer?  And I don't mean Money.

It's whatever the ECHR sees as reasonable, and the example I provided didn't include an admission of breaching human rights.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on March 31, 2021, 12:29:19 PM
It's been known for quite some time that an application had been submitted. What still isn't known is whether the application has been found to be admissible.

It's not 'sceptics' saying they have to accept a reasonable offer, it's the ECHR; 'reasonable' being defined by the ECHR.

So we don't know what reasonable entails.. If someone has been wronged I don't see how an admission could be described as unreasonable. The application has progressed this far.. Portugal has been asked to make an offer to all extents and purposes I can't see how that would happen if the claim had no merit.

I'm fairly sure some applications don't even get this far
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on March 31, 2021, 12:31:46 PM
It's whatever the ECHR sees as reasonable, and the example I provided didn't include an admission of breaching human rights.

In the case you quoted the claimant must have agreed to no admission of liability and happy to being compensated. We don't know what would have happened if they had objected
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Eleanor on March 31, 2021, 12:33:01 PM
It's been known for quite some time that an application had been submitted. What still isn't known is whether the application has been found to be admissible.

It's not 'sceptics' saying they have to accept a reasonable offer, it's the ECHR; 'reasonable' being defined by the ECHR.

Where does The ECHR say that The McCanns have to accept a reasonable offer?  And how do The ECHR define Reasonable?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: jassi on March 31, 2021, 12:38:15 PM
Where does The ECHR say that The McCanns have to accept a reasonable offer?  And how do The ECHR define Reasonable?

Whatever they think fit, I imagine.

To refuse a 'reasonable' offer might be seen as petulant.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Eleanor on March 31, 2021, 12:43:04 PM
Whatever they think fit, I imagine.

So we are all nowhere on a hiding to nothing.  Unless Portugal admit that they got it wrong.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: jassi on March 31, 2021, 12:47:50 PM
As I understand it, the ECHR have the final say, against which there is no appeal by anyone.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Eleanor on March 31, 2021, 12:53:25 PM
As I understand it, the ECHR have the final say, against which there is no appeal by anyone.

What is the point of going to The European Court of Human Rights if ones Human Rights are to be ignored?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: jassi on March 31, 2021, 12:58:40 PM
What is the point of going to The European Court of Human Rights if ones Human Rights are to be ignored?

They won't be ignored. A judgement will be made.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on March 31, 2021, 01:07:19 PM
I don't see how in this case no admission of liability could be seen as reasonable. If it were then it would allow a Amaral carte blanched to repeat his claims leaving the McCanns with no redress
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on March 31, 2021, 01:08:23 PM
In the case you quoted the claimant must have agreed to no admission of liability and happy to being compensated. We don't know what would have happened if they had objected

We don't know, but if they had refused the offer then their application could have;

Been struck out if the ECHR decided they had refused a reasonable offer.
Been struck out as inadmissible.
Been continued to the contentious phase.

Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on March 31, 2021, 01:10:24 PM
We don't know, but if they had refused the offer then their application could have;

Been struck out if the ECHR decided they had refused a reasonable offer.
Been struck out as inadmissible.
Been continued to the contentious phase.

You quoted this case in support of the idea that the ECHR found it reasonable not to admit liability.. It doesnt
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on March 31, 2021, 01:21:26 PM
We don't know, but if they had refused the offer then their application could have;

Been struck out if the ECHR decided they had refused a reasonable offer.
Been struck out as inadmissible.
Been continued to the contentious phase.
and what if Portugal refuses to make an offer, would that be seen as reasonable?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: jassi on March 31, 2021, 01:21:47 PM
We don't know, but if they had refused the offer then their application could have;

Been struck out if the ECHR decided they had refused a reasonable offer.
Been struck out as inadmissible.
Been continued to the contentious phase.

Would the admissibility not have been determined before moving to reasonable offer ?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on March 31, 2021, 01:52:24 PM
What is the point of going to The European Court of Human Rights if ones Human Rights are to be ignored?

People apply to the ECHR because they believe their human rights have been breached. There are no guarantees that the ECHR will agree with them.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on March 31, 2021, 02:09:39 PM
I don't see how in this case no admission of liability could be seen as reasonable. If it were then it would allow a Amaral carte blanched to repeat his claims leaving the McCanns with no redress

That's because you agree with the McCanns opinions. The ECHR may agree with them, but it may not.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on March 31, 2021, 02:21:53 PM
That's because you agree with the McCanns opinions. The ECHR may agree with them, but it may not.

You're stating opinion as fact and you are quite wrong. My opinion is based on sound logic not confirmation bias.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on March 31, 2021, 02:31:55 PM
Would the admissibility not have been determined before moving to reasonable offer ?

The first test is whether the application is admissible. Such things as applying within the time limits, having exhausted domestic remedies, and making sure that the application concerns human rights are examined. It's not clear to me who does this or when.

What is clear is that a decision on admissibility doesn't mean that a decision on the merits of the application has been reached.

The Court always encourages parties
to negotiate a friendly settlement. If no
agreement is reached the Court will proceed
to examine the merits of the application.
https://www.echr.coe.int/Documents/50Questions_ENG.pdf
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Eleanor on March 31, 2021, 03:13:57 PM
People apply to the ECHR because they believe their human rights have been breached. There are no guarantees that the ECHR will agree with them.

That wasn't what I meant.  But never mind.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on March 31, 2021, 03:52:56 PM
and what if Portugal refuses to make an offer, would that be seen as reasonable?

It seems to me that the Portuguese courts tried their very best to take on board and answer the claims relating to human rights in this case. Therefore any offer they might make is unlikely, imo, to include admitting that they got it wrong.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Eleanor on March 31, 2021, 03:58:36 PM
It seems to me that the Portuguese courts tried their very best to take on board and answer the claims relating to human rights in this case. Therefore any offer they might make is unlikely, imo, to include admitting that they got it wrong.

So what would be the point in offering Money?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on March 31, 2021, 04:16:01 PM
It seems to me that the Portuguese courts tried their very best to take on board and answer the claims relating to human rights in this case. Therefore any offer they might make is unlikely, imo, to include admitting that they got it wrong.
We know that the SC has got things wrong in the past so it's possible they have this time. It will be interesting to see what happens... From looking a t other cases involving articles 8 and 10 I think they have a very strong case
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: jassi on March 31, 2021, 04:27:16 PM
So what would be the point in offering Money?

Short of offering someone's head on a spike, what do you suggest ?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on March 31, 2021, 04:36:26 PM
It seems to me that the Portuguese courts tried their very best to take on board and answer the claims relating to human rights in this case. Therefore any offer they might make is unlikely, imo, to include admitting that they got it wrong.
I'm sure you could say the same for any state that has been taken to the ECHR.  None is very likely to want to admit that their highest court in the land breached someone's human rights are they?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on March 31, 2021, 04:37:23 PM
Short of offering someone's head on a spike, what do you suggest ?
An admission that they got it wrong and did breach their human rights, no need for heads on spikes, very messy that would be.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Eleanor on March 31, 2021, 04:43:28 PM
Short of offering someone's head on a spike, what do you suggest ?

I think it is quite simple.  The McCanns want some recognition of their Human Rights.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on March 31, 2021, 04:49:00 PM
Unless there is an admission Amaral can say everything again and again and the McCanns have no recourse.... That's why no ruling on the human rights question would not be a reasonable solution
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: jassi on March 31, 2021, 04:59:40 PM
I think it is quite simple.  The McCanns want some recognition of their Human Rights.

perhaps Portugal won't see it that way
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Eleanor on March 31, 2021, 05:05:39 PM
perhaps Portugal won't see it that way

I would say obviously not.  Apart from The Court of The First Instance, of course.

But it would seem that it would be Portugal who have to decide on what to do.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: jassi on March 31, 2021, 05:22:51 PM
I would say obviously not.  Apart from The Court of The First Instance, of course.

But it would seem that it would be Portugal who have to decide on what to do.

I don't think that will count. It's down to the big guns now and where politics meets the Law.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Eleanor on March 31, 2021, 05:30:48 PM
I don't think that will count. It's down to the big guns now and where politics meets the Law.

I don't know who will have to decide.  But according to G Unit it won't bode well for Portugal if they refuse.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: jassi on March 31, 2021, 05:32:12 PM
It was mentioned earlier that the Attorney-General equivalent would be involved.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Eleanor on March 31, 2021, 06:17:47 PM
It was mentioned earlier that the Attorney-General equivalent would be involved.

Well, that's okay.  I don't much mind who decides.

But a bit of a Dilemma for him if he refuses and then Portugal later loses The Case.  Right to The Top, eh what.
I do not envy him at all.  Whatever his name is.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: barrier on March 31, 2021, 06:37:16 PM
They won't be ignored. A judgement will be made.

Not so sure, this is worth a read imo, but its a blogger's view.

https://strasbourgobservers.com/2019/11/14/strasbourg-courts-new-non-contentious-phase-a-tax-on-lawlessness/


Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: barrier on March 31, 2021, 06:40:53 PM
We know that the SC has got things wrong in the past so it's possible they have this time. It will be interesting to see what happens... From looking a t other cases involving articles 8 and 10 I think they have a very strong case


But is it 8 and 10.


https://hudoc.echr.coe.int/eng#{%22fulltext%22:[%2257195/17%22],%22itemid%22:[%22001-207898%22]}

Document Type
Communicated Case
Title
MCCANN ET HEALY c. PORTUGAL
App. No(s).
57195/17
Importance Level
3
Respondent State(s)
Portugal
Conclusion(s)
Affaire communiquée
Affaire communiquée
Article(s)
6
6-2
8
8-1
Keywords
(Art. 6) Right to a fair trial
(Art. 8) Right to respect for private and family life
Date
14/01/2021
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on March 31, 2021, 07:11:27 PM
Not so sure, this is worth a read imo, but its a blogger's view.

https://strasbourgobservers.com/2019/11/14/strasbourg-courts-new-non-contentious-phase-a-tax-on-lawlessness/
It’s certainly worth a read and exposes some serious concerns about the ECHR’s apparent willingness to brush human rights transsgressions under the carpet for the sake of an easier life. 

“ In our experience of the Court’s conduct of the new non-contentious phase concerning cases involving particularly grave or systemic abuses, it is not acting in the interests of human rights; it is not even operating as a compensation mechanism, but is merely facilitating the disposal of cases by expediting a tax on lawlessness.”
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on March 31, 2021, 07:47:37 PM
Not so sure, this is worth a read imo, but its a blogger's view.

https://strasbourgobservers.com/2019/11/14/strasbourg-courts-new-non-contentious-phase-a-tax-on-lawlessness/
It's an extremely good read
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on March 31, 2021, 08:01:09 PM

But is it 8 and 10.


https://hudoc.echr.coe.int/eng#{%22fulltext%22:[%2257195/17%22],%22itemid%22:[%22001-207898%22]}

Document Type
Communicated Case
Title
MCCANN ET HEALY c. PORTUGAL
App. No(s).
57195/17
Importance Level
3
Respondent State(s)
Portugal
Conclusion(s)
Affaire communiquée
Affaire communiquée
Article(s)
6
6-2
8
8-1
Keywords
(Art. 6) Right to a fair trial
(Art. 8) Right to respect for private and family life
Date
14/01/2021
For the McCanns it 8...but their rights interfere with amarals rights under 10...so it's a balance between 8 and 10....and there's plenty of ECHR case law to look at
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 31, 2021, 08:56:02 PM
There was never any chance of that happening.  Amaral's Book is Libellous.
So it could look like a friendly win gesture then.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on March 31, 2021, 09:10:47 PM
For the McCanns it 8...but their rights interfere with amarals rights under 10...so it's a balance between 8 and 10....and there's plenty of ECHR case law to look at

Their application doesn't seem to have mentioned Article 10. Perhaps that's because they are complaining about the Portuguese authorities breaching their human rights, not about Amaral doing so.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on March 31, 2021, 09:15:37 PM
Their application doesn't seem to have mentioned Article 10. Perhaps that's because they are complaining about the Portuguese authorities breaching their human rights, not about Amaral doing so.

They have no reason to mention 10...Im giving the background to the case. The McCanns have rights under 8..the SC thought amarals rights under 10 were more important. The ECHR have produced an extensive report on cases involving the balance between the two
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: barrier on April 01, 2021, 06:02:13 AM
There was never any chance of that happening.  Amaral's Book is Libellous.
Where can a legal judgement be read expressing that view ?.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on April 01, 2021, 08:15:50 AM
Where can a legal judgement be read expressing that view ?.

The opinion of judges means nothing, it seems. The book must be libelous because the McCanns said so.

Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Eleanor on April 01, 2021, 09:26:48 AM
The opinion of judges means nothing, it seems. The book must be libelous because the McCanns said so.

Perhaps I should have said Libellous in English Law.  But since conversation was to do with Amaral's Book not being printed and put on sale by a British Publisher in Britain in English that I didn't at the time see the need.

Perhaps you all would like some discourse on why Amaral's Book is or isn't Libellous in Britain.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on April 01, 2021, 09:33:47 AM
The opinion of judges means nothing, it seems. The book must be libelous because the McCanns said so.
And what if the ECHR find in favour of the McCanns, what will that mean wrt the opinion of Portuguese judges?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on April 01, 2021, 09:36:17 AM
libel - a published false statement that is damaging to a person's reputation; a written defamation. 
So either prove that the statements in Amaral's book are true, or accept that they damage the McCanns' reputation, or do you suppose that being accused of hiding your daughter's body after you've over-sedated her isn't damaging to your reputation?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on April 01, 2021, 10:05:16 AM
libel - a published false statement that is damaging to a person's reputation; a written defamation. 
So either prove that the statements in Amaral's book are true, or accept that they damage the McCanns' reputation, or do you suppose that being accused of hiding your daughter's body after you've over-sedated her isn't damaging to your reputation?

According to Maria Emília de Melo e Castro the book expressed Amaral's opinion, his thesis, his hypothesis. Why should he not be allowed to express his opinion?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on April 01, 2021, 10:07:33 AM
According to Maria Emília de Melo e Castro the book expressed Amaral's opinion, his thesis, his hypothesis. Why should he not be allowed to express his opinion?
He can't express a defamatory opinion in the UK
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Eleanor on April 01, 2021, 10:15:25 AM
According to Maria Emília de Melo e Castro the book expressed Amaral's opinion, his thesis, his hypothesis. Why should he not be allowed to express his opinion?

Not in The UK he can't.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on April 01, 2021, 10:22:17 AM
According to Maria Emília de Melo e Castro the book expressed Amaral's opinion, his thesis, his hypothesis. Why should he not be allowed to express his opinion?
Because it damaged the reputation of the parents of a missing child.  Is it OK for me to publish a book about my hypothesis that certain named members of the Tory cabinet are involved in a paedophile ring if that is my opinion, even if I can't prove it?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on April 01, 2021, 10:29:05 AM
Because it damaged the reputation of the parents of a missing child.  Is it OK for me to publish a book about my hypothesis that certain named members of the Tory cabinet are involved in a paedophile ring if that is my opinion, even if I can't prove it?

In my opinion their reputation was damaged before the book was published.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Eleanor on April 01, 2021, 10:32:04 AM
In my opinion their reputation was damaged before the book was published.

Your Opinion is of no importance, beyond the fact that it is Libellous.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on April 01, 2021, 10:38:33 AM
In my opinion their reputation was damaged before the book was published.

I would agree but that doesn’t make any difference to libel.
You do realise that the opinion cannot be expressed on the forum because it would be libellous... Or perhaps you don't understand that
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on April 01, 2021, 10:47:01 AM
In my opinion their reputation was damaged before the book was published.
Your opinion is not important.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on April 01, 2021, 10:47:17 AM
Your Opinion is of no importance, beyond the fact that it is Libellous.
SNAP!
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on April 01, 2021, 10:57:04 AM
Your Opinion is of no importance, beyond the fact that it is Libellous.

Please explain why my opinion is libelous.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Eleanor on April 01, 2021, 10:58:52 AM
Please explain why my opinion is libelous.

Because you are suggesting things that you can't prove.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on April 01, 2021, 11:21:19 AM
In my opinion their reputation was damaged before the book was published.
Are you saying that it's not libel to publish false statement that are damaging about someone if others have already done so and therefore the damage has already been caused so it doesn't matter what anyone else does, it's too late?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Eleanor on April 01, 2021, 11:24:44 AM
Are you saying that it's not libel to publish false statement that are damaging about someone if others have already done so and therefore the damage has already been caused so it doesn't matter what anyone else does, it's too late?

This of course is not true.  Repeated Libel is still Libel. As is Libellous Innuendo.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on April 01, 2021, 12:04:27 PM
Because you are suggesting things that you can't prove.

Can you prove that Amaral's book damaged the McCann's reputation?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on April 01, 2021, 12:07:42 PM
Are you saying that it's not libel to publish false statement that are damaging about someone if others have already done so and therefore the damage has already been caused so it doesn't matter what anyone else does, it's too late?

There were no false statements in the book. There was evidence taken from the investigation and an opinion about what that evidence meant.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Eleanor on April 01, 2021, 12:10:10 PM
Can you prove that Amaral's book damaged the McCann's reputation?

Are you saying that The McCann's reputations haven't been damaged?  Not with anyone?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Eleanor on April 01, 2021, 12:11:25 PM
There were no false statements in the book. There was evidence taken from the investigation and an opinion about what that evidence meant.

This is clearly not true.  Amaral stated some things as fact.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on April 01, 2021, 12:30:53 PM
Are you saying that The McCann's reputations haven't been damaged?  Not with anyone?

Not with their family, friends, local community or employers they haven't, & evidence that Amaral's book, specifically, (rather than, for example, the interim conclusion reached by the PJ that's publicly available on the internet) is the reason some anonymous trolls hate the McCann's & suspect them, I don't remember seeing that presented to the SC.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on April 01, 2021, 12:34:02 PM
There were no false statements in the book. There was evidence taken from the investigation and an opinion about what that evidence meant.

There were false statements in the book. In the doc he claimed he could prove death and a cover up... He couldnt
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on April 01, 2021, 01:23:50 PM
Not with their family, friends, local community or employers they haven't, & evidence that Amaral's book, specifically, (rather than, for example, the interim conclusion reached by the PJ that's publicly available on the internet) is the reason some anonymous trolls hate the McCann's & suspect them, I don't remember seeing that presented to the SC.

They said that their reputations were damaged (mostly in Portugal) because people believed what Amaral wrote in his book. They were unable to demonstrate the truth of that statement in court, however.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on April 01, 2021, 01:28:14 PM
There were no false statements in the book. There was evidence taken from the investigation and an opinion about what that evidence meant.
Says who?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Brietta on April 01, 2021, 01:34:51 PM
They said that their reputations were damaged (mostly in Portugal) because people believed what Amaral wrote in his book. They were unable to demonstrate the truth of that statement in court, however.

Wasn't there something about Calpol?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: misty on April 01, 2021, 02:29:11 PM
https://globalfreedomofexpression.columbia.edu/cases/bedat-v-switzerland/

I am highlighting the two sections below from the ECHR Grand Chamber in the Bedat case as they can equally be applied to the McCann case..


(2) The content of the impugned article

In considering the content of the publication, the Court gave deference to the findings of the Swiss Federal Court that the manner in which he quoted the correspondence between the accused and the investigating judge showed his motive of “satisfying the relatively unhealthy curiosity.” By considering the headings of the article, such as “Questioning of the Mad Driver” and “the reckless driver’s version,” the Grand Chamber sided with Federal Court in concluding that Bédat’s tone was sensational. In addition, it also took issue with his explicit conclusions about the veracity of accused’s statements, which in the Court’s opinion was precisely the function of the judicial authorities to address.

(4) Influence of the impugned article on the criminal proceedings

The Grand Chamber was of the opinion that even though Bédat did not expressly claim that the accused acted intentionally in the killing and injuring others, [the article] was nevertheless set out in such a way as to point a highly negative picture of the [accused], highlighting certain disturbing aspects of his personality and concluding that he was doing ‘everything in his power to make himself impossible to defend himself.’” [para. 69]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

At no time during the open PJ investigation of 2007/8, the period covered by Amaral's book, did McCanns ever have the lawful right to publicly defend themselves against any of the many accusations leaked from a confidential process without risking a jail sentence.

The following is my opinion:-
I actually hope that Portugal will refuse a friendly settlement so that the Court can judge the case on its merits & publish their conclusions. That route would ensure no ambiguity in the terms of a friendly settlement and the issue of ex-gratia payments.
Sadly, the only financial winner here will be Amaral. The Domestic Courts have allowed him to keep the proceeds of his book and reimbursement of his legal fees which the McCanns were obliged to pay. Furthermore. he is also the beneficiary of a substantial, but unknown, amount of funding raised by PJGA to cover his costs in the first place. The McCanns are unlikely to receive over €75,000 in damages on top of substantiated legal costs based on prior ECHR compensation awards recommended be paid by the offending State. The moral victory may ultimately be theirs but the message in this case is that crime does pay.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Eleanor on April 01, 2021, 04:18:54 PM

Is not the Moral Victory ultimately the most important?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: jassi on April 01, 2021, 04:57:37 PM
https://globalfreedomofexpression.columbia.edu/cases/bedat-v-switzerland/

I am highlighting the two sections below from the ECHR Grand Chamber in the Bedat case as they can equally be applied to the McCann case..


(2) The content of the impugned article

In considering the content of the publication, the Court gave deference to the findings of the Swiss Federal Court that the manner in which he quoted the correspondence between the accused and the investigating judge showed his motive of “satisfying the relatively unhealthy curiosity.” By considering the headings of the article, such as “Questioning of the Mad Driver” and “the reckless driver’s version,” the Grand Chamber sided with Federal Court in concluding that Bédat’s tone was sensational. In addition, it also took issue with his explicit conclusions about the veracity of accused’s statements, which in the Court’s opinion was precisely the function of the judicial authorities to address.

(4) Influence of the impugned article on the criminal proceedings

The Grand Chamber was of the opinion that even though Bédat did not expressly claim that the accused acted intentionally in the killing and injuring others, [the article] was nevertheless set out in such a way as to point a highly negative picture of the [accused], highlighting certain disturbing aspects of his personality and concluding that he was doing ‘everything in his power to make himself impossible to defend himself.’” [para. 69]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

At no time during the open PJ investigation of 2007/8, the period covered by Amaral's book, did McCanns ever have the lawful right to publicly defend themselves against any of the many accusations leaked from a confidential process without risking a jail sentence.

The following is my opinion:-
I actually hope that Portugal will refuse a friendly settlement so that the Court can judge the case on its merits & publish their conclusions. That route would ensure no ambiguity in the terms of a friendly settlement and the issue of ex-gratia payments.
Sadly, the only financial winner here will be Amaral. The Domestic Courts have allowed him to keep the proceeds of his book and reimbursement of his legal fees which the McCanns were obliged to pay. Furthermore. he is also the beneficiary of a substantial, but unknown, amount of funding raised by PJGA to cover his costs in the first place. The McCanns are unlikely to receive over €75,000 in damages on top of substantiated legal costs based on prior ECHR compensation awards recommended be paid by the offending State. The moral victory may ultimately be theirs but the message in this case is that crime does pay.

What crime would that be ?  Libel is a civil offence, not a criminal one.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on April 01, 2021, 05:07:40 PM
What crime would that be ?  Libel is a civil offence, not a criminal one.
Breaching someone’s human rights is a crime isn’t it?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: barrier on April 01, 2021, 06:29:20 PM
Is not the Moral Victory ultimately the most important?


Morals never paid any ones bills..
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: barrier on April 01, 2021, 06:32:47 PM
Breaching someone’s human rights is a crime isn’t it?

Whose has found to have been breached ?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: barrier on April 01, 2021, 06:41:01 PM
Breaching someone’s human rights is a crime isn’t it?

The McCann's claim a right to a fair trial, they've never been on trial so how does that breach their rights, they also claim a right to private life, telling the world you can't make love to your husband doesn't exactly seem private, so how would that right be breached.

Document Type
Communicated Case
Title
MCCANN ET HEALY c. PORTUGAL
App. No(s).
57195/17
Importance Level
3
Respondent State(s)
Portugal
Conclusion(s)
Affaire communiquée
Affaire communiquée
Article(s)
6
6-2
8
8-1
Keywords
(Art. 6) Right to a fair trial
(Art. 8) Right to respect for private and family life
Date
14/01/2021
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on April 01, 2021, 06:46:18 PM
The McCann's claim a right to a fair trial, they've never been on trial so how does that breach their rights, they also claim a right to private life, telling the world you can't make love to your husband doesn't exactly seem private, so how would that right be breached.

Document Type
Communicated Case
Title
MCCANN ET HEALY c. PORTUGAL
App. No(s).
57195/17
Importance Level
3
Respondent State(s)
Portugal
Conclusion(s)
Affaire communiquée
Affaire communiquée
Article(s)
6
6-2
8
8-1
Keywords
(Art. 6) Right to a fair trial
(Art. 8) Right to respect for private and family life
Date
14/01/2021

It was important this subject was made known to the public in the interests of bringing Maddie home.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: misty on April 01, 2021, 06:51:37 PM
What crime would that be ?  Libel is a civil offence, not a criminal one.
I believe defamation is still a criminal offence in Portugal which carries a custodial sentence.  However, to claim damages from the offender, it's necessary to use the civil path.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Eleanor on April 01, 2021, 06:57:27 PM
I believe defamation is still a criminal offence in Portugal which carries a custodial sentence.  However, to claim damages from the offender, it's necessary to use the civil path.

This is correct.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Anthro on April 01, 2021, 07:06:55 PM
The McCann's claim a right to a fair trial, they've never been on trial so how does that breach their rights, they also claim a right to private life, telling the world you can't make love to your husband doesn't exactly seem private, so how would that right be breached.

Document Type
Communicated Case
Title
MCCANN ET HEALY c. PORTUGAL
App. No(s).
57195/17
Importance Level
3
Respondent State(s)
Portugal
Conclusion(s)
Affaire communiquée
Affaire communiquée
Article(s)
6
6-2
8
8-1
Keywords
(Art. 6) Right to a fair trial
(Art. 8) Right to respect for private and family life
Date
14/01/2021

Perhaps Kate’s editor suggested that the book should include such information (?)
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on April 01, 2021, 07:15:47 PM
Whose has found to have been breached ?
It was a hypothetical question.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on April 01, 2021, 07:19:06 PM
Perhaps Kate’s editor suggested that the book should include such information (?)

For what earthly reason would people need to know that Kate couldn't have marital relationship?

I wonder if her publisher suggested she include the detail of Maddie's vagina aswell.

If so, the publishers sound like total perverts imo
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on April 01, 2021, 07:20:50 PM
For what earthly reason would people need to know that Kate have marital relationship?

I wonder if her publisher suggested she include the detail of Maddie's vagina aswell.

If so, the publishers sound like total perverts imo
you’re the one sounding like the pervert here.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on April 01, 2021, 07:23:45 PM
you’re the one sounding like the pervert here.

I am perverted, but I think publishers of books about children should have a higher standard.

Unless of course they're making child pornography books.

Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on April 01, 2021, 07:24:59 PM
The McCann's claim a right to a fair trial, they've never been on trial so how does that breach their rights, they also claim a right to private life, telling the world you can't make love to your husband doesn't exactly seem private, so how would that right be breached.

Document Type
Communicated Case
Title
MCCANN ET HEALY c. PORTUGAL
App. No(s).
57195/17
Importance Level
3
Respondent State(s)
Portugal
Conclusion(s)
Affaire communiquée
Affaire communiquée
Article(s)
6
6-2
8
8-1
Keywords
(Art. 6) Right to a fair trial
(Art. 8) Right to respect for private and family life
Date
14/01/2021
So if you write the above sentence in a book you forfeit your human right to respect for your private and family life, is that a fact?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: misty on April 01, 2021, 07:26:01 PM
Latest situation on ECHR website
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Anthro on April 01, 2021, 07:46:55 PM
For what earthly reason would people need to know that Kate couldn't f*ck?

I wonder if her publisher suggested she include the detail of Maddie's vagina aswell.

If so, the publishers sound like total perverts imo
Have you published before? Publishers often set their own parameters in order to up their sales.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on April 01, 2021, 08:26:02 PM
I am perverted, but I think publishers of books about children should have a higher standard.

Unless of course they're making child pornography books.
It wasn’t a book about a child, it was a book about the disappearance of a child and the fall out afterwards.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on April 02, 2021, 10:07:51 AM
Have you published before? Publishers often set their own parameters in order to up their sales.

Publishers would have been tripping over themselves to give the McCann's a deal.

The book was always going to sell itself without the need for any mention of sex, the lack of it, or Maddie's bits.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on April 02, 2021, 10:26:10 AM
Publishers would have been tripping over themselves to give the McCann's a deal.

The book was always going to sell itself without the need for any mention of sex, the lack of it, or Maddie's bits.
Only extremely childish people (or puritans with a horror of the mention of sex or private parts, no matter how top line) would get a fit of the vapours over it. 
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Eleanor on April 02, 2021, 10:40:44 AM
Only extremely childish people (or puritans with a horror of the mention of sex or private parts, no matter how top line) would get a fit of the vapours over it. 

Is somebody angered by how much money Kate's Book made for the search for Madeleine?  It would hardly have registered with me if it hadn't been splashed all over the place.  So well done to them all, I say.  Their dedication sold a fair few copies.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: barrier on April 02, 2021, 08:35:08 PM
Latest situation on ECHR website

Then it goes back to this.


(https://i.imgur.com/7XI0Zyb.png)
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: jassi on April 02, 2021, 08:52:50 PM
Is somebody angered by how much money Kate's Book made for the search for Madeleine?  It would hardly have registered with me if it hadn't been splashed all over the place.  So well done to them all, I say.  Their dedication sold a fair few copies.

Madeline is clearly a marketable product. Gerry saw that early on.
Why shouldn't people make money from her?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on April 02, 2021, 08:56:45 PM
Madeline is clearly a marketable product. Gerry saw that early on.
Why shouldn't people make money from her?

The media do it whenever they can.

They tend to turn off the comments sections for some reason though.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Eleanor on April 02, 2021, 08:58:59 PM
Madeline is clearly a marketable product. Gerry saw that early on.
Why shouldn't people make money from her?

That might depend on their reasons.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: jassi on April 02, 2021, 09:00:23 PM
The media do it whenever they can.

They tend to turn off the comments sections for some reason though.

Indeed. Any old rubbish sells, the wilder the better.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: jassi on April 02, 2021, 09:07:45 PM
That might depend on their reasons.

Who is to decide who should and who shouldn't cash in ?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Eleanor on April 02, 2021, 09:11:40 PM
Who is to decide who should and who shouldn't cash in ?

Initially no one but themselves.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: barrier on April 02, 2021, 09:11:51 PM
Who is to decide who should and who shouldn't cash in ?

The sanctimonious.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: jassi on April 02, 2021, 09:13:13 PM
Ah yes, of course.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: John on April 03, 2021, 06:19:50 PM
Could we stay on topic please...ta very much.

Happy Easter everyone   8((()*/
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on April 04, 2021, 11:18:47 PM
Publishers would have been tripping over themselves to give the McCann's a deal.

The book was always going to sell itself without the need for any mention of sex, the lack of it, or Maddie's bits.

Yes!  it was serialised in the Sun newspaper  tabloid AKA - t ttS n B*M  Rag.

Private life? Are you kidding- They enjoyed the celebrity life while ittlasted and it didn't last very long did it? as people stared to see right through them.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Brietta on April 05, 2021, 12:21:15 AM
Yes!  it was serialised in the Sun newspaper  tabloid AKA - t ttS n B*M  Rag.

Private life? Are you kidding- They enjoyed the celebrity life while ittlasted and it didn't last very long did it? as people stared to see right through them.

Easter blessings to you too.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: jassi on April 05, 2021, 09:12:33 AM
Yes!  it was serialised in the Sun newspaper  tabloid AKA - t ttS n B*M  Rag.

Private life? Are you kidding- They enjoyed the celebrity life while ittlasted and it didn't last very long did it? as people stared to see right through them.

Well he certainly did - just loved strutting about centre stage. Her, not so much - at least at the beginning.

All IMO of course  ?{)(**
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on April 05, 2021, 09:20:27 AM
Well he certainly did - just loved strutting about centre stage. Her, not so much - at least at the beginning.

All IMO of course  ?{)(**
Strange to be so attention seeking when you’re guilty and know you’ve been seen by half a dozen people committing a crime don’t you think?
NB:  I’ll take your lack of a reply as an acceptance of my point.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on May 16, 2021, 12:54:27 PM
Just for the record, the fact that the ECHR have asked the Portuguese government to comment on the McCann's application does not mean their case has been decided to be admissible. Here is another case which was referred to a government for comments;
http://app.echr.coe.int/SOP/index.aspx?lg=en

The applicant alleged that Articles 8, 6 and 13 had been breached. The ECHR rejected the admissibilty of his claims under Articles 6 and 13, and after examining his claim under Article 8 more closely, decided that there was no violation of his rights in connection with that Article.
https://www.stradalex.com/en/sl_src_publ_jur_int/document/echr_78754-13

Therefore it's possible that the ECHR could still declare any of the McCanns claims inadmissible.

Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on May 16, 2021, 01:35:09 PM
Just for the record, the fact that the ECHR have asked the Portuguese government to comment on the McCann's application does not mean their case has been decided to be admissible. Here is another case which was referred to a government for comments;
http://app.echr.coe.int/SOP/index.aspx?lg=en

The applicant alleged that Articles 8, 6 and 13 had been breached. The ECHR rejected the admissibilty of his claims under Articles 6 and 13, and after examining his claim under Article 8 more closely, decided that there was no violation of his rights in connection with that Article.
https://www.stradalex.com/en/sl_src_publ_jur_int/document/echr_78754-13

Therefore it's possible that the ECHR could still declare any of the McCanns claims inadmissible.

Possible but is it probable
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: The General on May 26, 2021, 03:02:04 PM
Possible but is it probable
What was that admission threshold rate, 10%?
So, by default and purely on the numbers, more possible than probable. You have to factor in that it's a self-serving, meritocratic bureaucracy, filled with career plodding lawyers.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on May 26, 2021, 03:58:50 PM
Possible but is it probable
What was that admission threshold rate, 10%?
So, by default and purely on the numbers, more possible than probable. You have to factor in that it's a self-serving, meritocratic bureaucracy, filled with career plodding lawyers.

I'm probably the only poster who has looked in depth at previous cases where a balance between articles 8 and 10 are made. Having looked at them I feel the McCanns have a very strong case and interestingly the ECHR has said the case is covered by existing case law
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: misty on May 31, 2021, 12:16:53 AM
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/15116470/madeleine-mccann-parents-legal-battle-cop/
Nick Pisa
23:30, 30 May 2021Updated: 23:32, 30 May 2021
MADELEINE McCann's parents have been told they will find out this year if they have won their legal battle against ex-cop Goncalo Amaral.

Kate and Gerry took action against Amaral, 61, for his slurs in book The Truth of the Lie.

He claimed the devastated couple were responsible for Madeleine’s disappearance in 2007.

The pair initially took the case to court in ­Portugal and won, but then lost an appeal.

They lodged a fresh case at the European Court of Human Rights in 2017.

ECHR judges wrote to the Portuguese government and the McCanns asking for “observations” and if they would consider settling out of court.

The McCann legal team said they were willing to settle but Portugal refused their offer.


The judges will now give a verdict by the end of the year.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The appeal has now progressed to the contentious phase.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on May 31, 2021, 08:11:55 AM
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/15116470/madeleine-mccann-parents-legal-battle-cop/
Nick Pisa
23:30, 30 May 2021Updated: 23:32, 30 May 2021
MADELEINE McCann's parents have been told they will find out this year if they have won their legal battle against ex-cop Goncalo Amaral.

Kate and Gerry took action against Amaral, 61, for his slurs in book The Truth of the Lie.

He claimed the devastated couple were responsible for Madeleine’s disappearance in 2007.

The pair initially took the case to court in ­Portugal and won, but then lost an appeal.

They lodged a fresh case at the European Court of Human Rights in 2017.

ECHR judges wrote to the Portuguese government and the McCanns asking for “observations” and if they would consider settling out of court.

The McCann legal team said they were willing to settle but Portugal refused their offer.


The judges will now give a verdict by the end of the year.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The appeal has now progressed to the contentious phase.

So a shock for all the sceptics who felt the McCanns didn't have a case and it would be ruled inadmissible
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on May 31, 2021, 08:13:20 AM
So a shock for all the sceptics who felt the McCanns didn't have a case and it would be ruled inadmissible
Certainly a major disappointment for them (though they will of course deny it).
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on May 31, 2021, 08:31:26 AM
So a shock for all the sceptics who felt the McCanns didn't have a case and it would be ruled inadmissible

You do know that parts of the claim could still be found inadmissible?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on May 31, 2021, 08:36:35 AM
You do know that parts of the claim could still be found inadmissible?

Of course I'm aware of that but I think you are grasping at straws
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Carana on May 31, 2021, 09:25:19 AM
So a shock for all the sceptics who felt the McCanns didn't have a case and it would be ruled inadmissible

Are the documents detailing the complaint submitted and the ruling anywhere online?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on May 31, 2021, 09:37:52 AM
Of course I'm aware of that but I think you are grasping at straws

We shall just have to wait and see, won't we? I was merely reminding you, since you mentioned it, that the admissibilty of the claim isn't yet settled.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: jassi on May 31, 2021, 09:50:52 AM
We shall just have to wait and see, won't we? I was merely reminding you, since you mentioned it, that the admissibilty of the claim isn't yet settled.


It's always been the case. Prediction of outcome is futile.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: John on May 31, 2021, 10:43:29 AM
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/15116470/madeleine-mccann-parents-legal-battle-cop/
Nick Pisa
23:30, 30 May 2021Updated: 23:32, 30 May 2021
MADELEINE McCann's parents have been told they will find out this year if they have won their legal battle against ex-cop Goncalo Amaral.

Kate and Gerry took action against Amaral, 61, for his slurs in book The Truth of the Lie.

He claimed the devastated couple were responsible for Madeleine’s disappearance in 2007.

The pair initially took the case to court in ­Portugal and won, but then lost an appeal.

They lodged a fresh case at the European Court of Human Rights in 2017.

ECHR judges wrote to the Portuguese government and the McCanns asking for “observations” and if they would consider settling out of court.

The McCann legal team said they were willing to settle but Portugal refused their offer.


The judges will now give a verdict by the end of the year.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The appeal has now progressed to the contentious phase.

This action is against the state of Portugal and not Gonçalo Amaral. The McCanns lost their case against Amaral as dictated by the Portuguese Supreme Court.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on May 31, 2021, 10:59:48 AM
This action is against the state of Portugal and not Gonçalo Amaral. The McCanns lost their case against Amaral as dictated by the Portuguese Supreme Court.
If they win their appeal at the ECHR they will win the ultimate moral victory against Amaral, even though the case is not directly against him.  IMO.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on May 31, 2021, 11:50:52 AM
We shall just have to wait and see, won't we? I was merely reminding you, since you mentioned it, that the admissibilty of the claim isn't yet settled.

iI think you are dreaming
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on May 31, 2021, 11:53:52 AM
This action is against the state of Portugal and not Gonçalo Amaral. The McCanns lost their case against Amaral as dictated by the Portuguese Supreme Court.

Ive looked at other cases. The action will be whether the SC was right in ruling in Amarals favour and and one of the thing the court will be looking at the evidence that supports amarals claims. If the ECHR rule in Amarals failure that will effectively gag amaral unless he wants to end up back in court
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: kizzy on May 31, 2021, 12:16:12 PM
So a shock for all the sceptics who felt the McCanns didn't have a case and it would be ruled inadmissible

Ah so now you believe the Sun ...shock horror  &%%6
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: barrier on May 31, 2021, 07:49:17 PM
Ah so now you believe the Sun ...shock horror  &%%6

Only if the story fits .
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: barrier on May 31, 2021, 07:50:06 PM
This action is against the state of Portugal and not Gonçalo Amaral. The McCanns lost their case against Amaral as dictated by the Portuguese Supreme Court.

Was it ever thus once the appeal to the SC failed.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: barrier on May 31, 2021, 07:52:20 PM
So a shock for all the sceptics who felt the McCanns didn't have a case and it would be ruled inadmissible

Not such a shock as you believing the brit media, or maybe not.Yet hardly a word about the mirror story saying Wolt is struggling.Hmmmm.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: barrier on May 31, 2021, 08:09:08 PM
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/15116470/madeleine-mccann-parents-legal-battle-cop/
Nick Pisa
23:30, 30 May 2021Updated: 23:32, 30 May 2021
MADELEINE McCann's parents have been told they will find out this year if they have won their legal battle against ex-cop Goncalo Amaral.

Kate and Gerry took action against Amaral, 61, for his slurs in book The Truth of the Lie.

He claimed the devastated couple were responsible for Madeleine’s disappearance in 2007.

The pair initially took the case to court in ­Portugal and won, but then lost an appeal.

They lodged a fresh case at the European Court of Human Rights in 2017.

ECHR judges wrote to the Portuguese government and the McCanns asking for “observations” and if they would consider settling out of court.

The McCann legal team said they were willing to settle but Portugal refused their offer.


The judges will now give a verdict by the end of the year.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The appeal has now progressed to the contentious phase.

Given the talks are supposed to be cloaked in confidentiality, how come the Sun knows the state of play, join the dots.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: barrier on May 31, 2021, 08:16:02 PM
Are the documents detailing the complaint submitted and the ruling anywhere online?

Not on the hudoc site, or here.



(https://i.imgur.com/YSFLIvS.png)

Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Carana on June 02, 2021, 08:14:03 PM
Not on the hudoc site, or here.



(https://i.imgur.com/YSFLIvS.png)
Thanks for trying. I haven't had any luck, either.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Carana on June 05, 2021, 06:20:06 PM
With thanks to a kind soul elsewhere...

Mccann case against Portugal.

Communicated on January 14, 2021

Posted on February 1, 2021

FOURTH SECTION

Application no.57195 / 17
Gerald Patrick MCCANN and Kate Marie HEALY
against Portugal
lodged on July 28, 2017

SUBJECT OF THE CASE

The request concerns allegations made by GA, a former inspector of the judicial police, in a book and a documentary broadcast on the television channel T., then put on sale in the form of a DVD, about the involvement of the applicants in the disappearance of their daughter, which occurred on 3 May 2007 in the south of Portugal. It also concerns the civil liability action brought by the applicants against GA, its publisher and the T. television channel, after which they were dismissed.

Relying on Articles 6 §§ 1 and 2, 8 and 10 § 2 of the Convention, the applicants assert that the allegations made by GA in the book and the documentary in question infringed their right to respect for their private life and their right to the presumption of innocence. They complain that the domestic courts failed to weigh the interests at stake in accordance with the criteria set out in the Court's case-law.

Furthermore, still from the point of view of Articles 6 §§ 1 and 2, 8 and 10 § 2 of the Convention, they argue that the reasoning contained in the decisions delivered on 31 January and 21 March 2017 by the Supreme Court in the outcome of the civil liability action also violated their right to the presumption of innocence.

QUESTIONS TO THE PARTIES

1. Was there an infringement of the applicants' right to respect for their private life, within the meaning of Article 8 § 1 of the Convention (see, Axel Springer AG v. Germany [GC], no. , § 83, 7 February 2012; and Larrañaga Arando and Others v. Spain (dec.), Nos 73911/16, 233/17 3086/17 and 5155/17, § 42, 25 June 2019) in particular with regard to the allegations made by GA in the litigious book and documentary?

In particular, did the respondent State comply with its positive obligations aimed at guaranteeing the applicants the right to respect for their “private life”, within the meaning of Article 8 of the Convention?

Furthermore, in their decisions, did the domestic courts carry out an adequate balance, in accordance with the criteria established by the Court's case-law, between the applicants' right to respect for their private life and the right of the parties? opponents of freedom of expression (see, Von Hannover (no 2) [GC], nos 40660/08 and 60641/08, §§ 108-113, ECHR 2012, Axel Springer AG, cited above, §§ 89-95, and Bédat v. Switzerland [GC], no 56925/08, §§ 52-54, ECHR 2016)?

2. Has the presumption of innocence guaranteed by Article 6 § 2 of the Convention been respected in the present case having regard to the reasoning contained in the decisions delivered on 31 January and 21 March 2017 by the Supreme Court (see, Allen v. The United Kingdom [GC], no 25424/09, § 94, ECHR 2013)?

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:pzfiYKKRNd0J:https://www.doctrine.fr/d/CEDH/HFCOM/COMMUNICATEDCASES/2021/CEDH001-207898+&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk

Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on June 05, 2021, 06:31:02 PM
With thanks to a kind soul elsewhere...

Mccann case against Portugal.

Communicated on January 14, 2021

Posted on February 1, 2021

FOURTH SECTION

Application no.57195 / 17
Gerald Patrick MCCANN and Kate Marie HEALY
against Portugal
lodged on July 28, 2017

SUBJECT OF THE CASE

The request concerns allegations made by GA, a former inspector of the judicial police, in a book and a documentary broadcast on the television channel T., then put on sale in the form of a DVD, about the involvement of the applicants in the disappearance of their daughter, which occurred on 3 May 2007 in the south of Portugal. It also concerns the civil liability action brought by the applicants against GA, its publisher and the T. television channel, after which they were dismissed.

Relying on Articles 6 §§ 1 and 2, 8 and 10 § 2 of the Convention, the applicants assert that the allegations made by GA in the book and the documentary in question infringed their right to respect for their private life and their right to the presumption of innocence. They complain that the domestic courts failed to weigh the interests at stake in accordance with the criteria set out in the Court's case-law.

Furthermore, still from the point of view of Articles 6 §§ 1 and 2, 8 and 10 § 2 of the Convention, they argue that the reasoning contained in the decisions delivered on 31 January and 21 March 2017 by the Supreme Court in the outcome of the civil liability action also violated their right to the presumption of innocence.

QUESTIONS TO THE PARTIES

1. Was there an infringement of the applicants' right to respect for their private life, within the meaning of Article 8 § 1 of the Convention (see, Axel Springer AG v. Germany [GC], no. , § 83, 7 February 2012; and Larrañaga Arando and Others v. Spain (dec.), Nos 73911/16, 233/17 3086/17 and 5155/17, § 42, 25 June 2019) in particular with regard to the allegations made by GA in the litigious book and documentary?

In particular, did the respondent State comply with its positive obligations aimed at guaranteeing the applicants the right to respect for their “private life”, within the meaning of Article 8 of the Convention?

Furthermore, in their decisions, did the domestic courts carry out an adequate balance, in accordance with the criteria established by the Court's case-law, between the applicants' right to respect for their private life and the right of the parties? opponents of freedom of expression (see, Von Hannover (no 2) [GC], nos 40660/08 and 60641/08, §§ 108-113, ECHR 2012, Axel Springer AG, cited above, §§ 89-95, and Bédat v. Switzerland [GC], no 56925/08, §§ 52-54, ECHR 2016)?

2. Has the presumption of innocence guaranteed by Article 6 § 2 of the Convention been respected in the present case having regard to the reasoning contained in the decisions delivered on 31 January and 21 March 2017 by the Supreme Court (see, Allen v. The United Kingdom [GC], no 25424/09, § 94, ECHR 2013)?

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:pzfiYKKRNd0J:https://www.doctrine.fr/d/CEDH/HFCOM/COMMUNICATEDCASES/2021/CEDH001-207898+&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk

So all those saying Amaral would not feature are wrong... As I claimed from the start.... And the infringment is the presumption of innocence and the balance between articles 8 and 10...as I said from the start
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Brietta on June 05, 2021, 07:53:02 PM
With thanks to a kind soul elsewhere...

Mccann case against Portugal.

Communicated on January 14, 2021

Posted on February 1, 2021

FOURTH SECTION

Application no.57195 / 17
Gerald Patrick MCCANN and Kate Marie HEALY
against Portugal
lodged on July 28, 2017

SUBJECT OF THE CASE

The request concerns allegations made by GA, a former inspector of the judicial police, in a book and a documentary broadcast on the television channel T., then put on sale in the form of a DVD, about the involvement of the applicants in the disappearance of their daughter, which occurred on 3 May 2007 in the south of Portugal. It also concerns the civil liability action brought by the applicants against GA, its publisher and the T. television channel, after which they were dismissed.

Relying on Articles 6 §§ 1 and 2, 8 and 10 § 2 of the Convention, the applicants assert that the allegations made by GA in the book and the documentary in question infringed their right to respect for their private life and their right to the presumption of innocence. They complain that the domestic courts failed to weigh the interests at stake in accordance with the criteria set out in the Court's case-law.

Furthermore, still from the point of view of Articles 6 §§ 1 and 2, 8 and 10 § 2 of the Convention, they argue that the reasoning contained in the decisions delivered on 31 January and 21 March 2017 by the Supreme Court in the outcome of the civil liability action also violated their right to the presumption of innocence.

QUESTIONS TO THE PARTIES

1. Was there an infringement of the applicants' right to respect for their private life, within the meaning of Article 8 § 1 of the Convention (see, Axel Springer AG v. Germany [GC], no. , § 83, 7 February 2012; and Larrañaga Arando and Others v. Spain (dec.), Nos 73911/16, 233/17 3086/17 and 5155/17, § 42, 25 June 2019) in particular with regard to the allegations made by GA in the litigious book and documentary?

In particular, did the respondent State comply with its positive obligations aimed at guaranteeing the applicants the right to respect for their “private life”, within the meaning of Article 8 of the Convention?

Furthermore, in their decisions, did the domestic courts carry out an adequate balance, in accordance with the criteria established by the Court's case-law, between the applicants' right to respect for their private life and the right of the parties? opponents of freedom of expression (see, Von Hannover (no 2) [GC], nos 40660/08 and 60641/08, §§ 108-113, ECHR 2012, Axel Springer AG, cited above, §§ 89-95, and Bédat v. Switzerland [GC], no 56925/08, §§ 52-54, ECHR 2016)?

2. Has the presumption of innocence guaranteed by Article 6 § 2 of the Convention been respected in the present case having regard to the reasoning contained in the decisions delivered on 31 January and 21 March 2017 by the Supreme Court (see, Allen v. The United Kingdom [GC], no 25424/09, § 94, ECHR 2013)?

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:pzfiYKKRNd0J:https://www.doctrine.fr/d/CEDH/HFCOM/COMMUNICATEDCASES/2021/CEDH001-207898+&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk

Thanks Carana.

Just a waiting game from now on.  I think it is so sad that things have dragged on for as long as they have over a situation which could have been prevented had Amaral chosen either not to have written his book or had chosen to write a different type of book.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Carana on June 05, 2021, 08:10:51 PM
So all those saying Amaral would not feature are wrong... As I claimed from the start.... And the infringment is the presumption of innocence and the balance between articles 8 and 10...as I said from the start

How does the presumption of innocence come into play when they were never charged in the first place?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Brietta on June 05, 2021, 08:15:14 PM
So all those saying Amaral would not feature are wrong... As I claimed from the start.... And the infringement is the presumption of innocence and the balance between articles 8 and 10...as I said from the start

I never doubted you, Davel, you have kept us up to speed with your analysis of the probabilities despite the naysayers contradicting you every step of the way with their predictions, all of which have proved wrong.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Brietta on June 05, 2021, 08:27:57 PM
How does the presumption of innocence come into play when they were never charged in the first place?

I don't think it should ever have been brought into play as the McCann's were innocent as soon as there was no evidence to support charges being brought against them.

Similarly for Robert Murat.

I think it was the Supreme Court Judges who called their innocence into question and that was probably the catalyst for the McCanns referral to the ECHR.
Although Amaral in my opinion has denied their presumption of innocence from start to finish I think the judges' ruling is the clincher as far as dropping the Portuguese State into it is concerned.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on June 05, 2021, 08:39:23 PM
How does the presumption of innocence come into play when they were never charged in the first place?

They dont have to be charged... They are entitled to the presumption of innocence as suspects... You dont really think their lawyers would make such a basic error surely
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on June 05, 2021, 09:36:17 PM
How does the presumption of innocence come into play when they were never charged in the first place?

It was brought into play by Isabel Duarte during the 'libel trial' and it therefore forms part of this application to the ECHR. It remains to be seen if it will be seen as admissible by them.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on June 05, 2021, 09:53:35 PM
It was brought into play by Isabel Duarte during the 'libel trial' and it therefore forms part of this application to the ECHR. It remains to be seen if it will be seen as admissible by them.
I seem to remember you claiming the presumption of innocence did not apply in a civil case.. Did the SC also make that claim.. You will find it does apply
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on June 05, 2021, 11:07:04 PM
I seem to remember you claiming the presumption of innocence did not apply in a civil case.. Did the SC also make that claim.. You will find it does apply

It isn't a protection applied to civil cases, just to criminal cases.

Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: misty on June 06, 2021, 12:31:52 AM
It isn't a protection applied to civil cases, just to criminal cases.

That's not strictly true.

Allen v UK
25424/09

From the Grand Chamber...
*snipped*

2.  The Court’s assessment

(a)  General principles

(i)  Introduction

92.  The object and purpose of the Convention, as an instrument for the protection of human beings, requires that its provisions be interpreted and applied so as to make its safeguards practical and effective (see, inter alia, Soering v. the United Kingdom, 7 July 1989, § 87, Series A no. 161, and Al‑Skeini and Others v. the United Kingdom [GC], no. 55721/07, § 162, ECHR 2011). The Court has expressly stated that this applies to the right enshrined in Article 6 § 2 (see, for example, Allenet de Ribemont v. France, 10 February 1995, § 35, Series A no. 308, and Capeau, cited above, § 21).

93.  Article 6 § 2 safeguards the right to be “presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law”. Viewed as a procedural guarantee in the context of a criminal trial itself, the presumption of innocence imposes requirements in respect of, inter alia, the burden of proof (see Barberà, Messegué and Jabardo v. Spain, 6 December 1988, § 77, Series A no. 146, and Telfner v. Austria, no. 33501/96, § 15, 20 March 2001); legal presumptions of fact and law (see Salabiaku v. France, 7 October 1988, § 28, Series A no. 141‑A, and Radio France and Others v. France, no. 53984/00, § 24, ECHR 2004‑II); the privilege against self-incrimination (see Saunders v. the United Kingdom, 17 December 1996, § 68, Reports of Judgments and Decisions 1996‑VI, and Heaney and McGuinness v. Ireland, no. 34720/97, § 40, ECHR 2000‑XII); pre-trial publicity (see Akay v. Turkey (dec.), no. 34501/97, 19 February 2002, and G.C.P. v. Romania, no. 20899/03, § 46, 20 December 2011); and premature expressions, by the trial court or by other public officials, of a defendant’s guilt (see Allenet de Ribemont, cited above, §§ 35-36, and Nešťák v. Slovakia, no. 65559/01, § 88, 27 February 2007).

94.  However, in keeping with the need to ensure that the right guaranteed by Article 6 § 2 is practical and effective, the presumption of innocence also has another aspect. Its general aim, in this second aspect, is to protect individuals who have been acquitted of a criminal charge, or in respect of whom criminal proceedings have been discontinued, from being treated by public officials and authorities as though they are in fact guilty of the offence charged. In these cases, the presumption of innocence has already operated, through the application at trial of the various requirements inherent in the procedural guarantee it affords, to prevent an unfair criminal conviction being imposed. Without protection to ensure respect for the acquittal or the discontinuation decision in any other proceedings, the fair-trial guarantees of Article 6 § 2 could risk becoming theoretical and illusory. What is also at stake once the criminal proceedings have concluded is the person’s reputation and the way in which that person is perceived by the public. To a certain extent, the protection afforded under Article 6 § 2 in this respect may overlap with the protection afforded by Article 8 (see, for example, Zollman v. the United Kingdom (dec.), no. 62902/00, ECHR 2003‑XII, and Taliadorou and Stylianou v. Cyprus, nos. 39627/05 and 39631/05, §§ 27 and 56-59, 16 October 2008).
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: misty on June 06, 2021, 12:52:07 AM
Thanks Carana.

Just a waiting game from now on.  I think it is so sad that things have dragged on for as long as they have over a situation which could have been prevented had Amaral chosen either not to have written his book or had chosen to write a different type of book.

IMO if the victim had not been a UK citizen, neither Cristovao nor Amaral would have had the vast amount of material, which attracted the interest of the public,  to warrant publication of a book on the case.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Brietta on June 06, 2021, 02:00:39 AM
That's not strictly true.

Allen v UK
25424/09

From the Grand Chamber...
*snipped*

2.  The Court’s assessment

(a)  General principles

(i)  Introduction

92.  The object and purpose of the Convention, as an instrument for the protection of human beings, requires that its provisions be interpreted and applied so as to make its safeguards practical and effective (see, inter alia, Soering v. the United Kingdom, 7 July 1989, § 87, Series A no. 161, and Al‑Skeini and Others v. the United Kingdom [GC], no. 55721/07, § 162, ECHR 2011). The Court has expressly stated that this applies to the right enshrined in Article 6 § 2 (see, for example, Allenet de Ribemont v. France, 10 February 1995, § 35, Series A no. 308, and Capeau, cited above, § 21).

93.  Article 6 § 2 safeguards the right to be “presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law”. Viewed as a procedural guarantee in the context of a criminal trial itself, the presumption of innocence imposes requirements in respect of, inter alia, the burden of proof (see Barberà, Messegué and Jabardo v. Spain, 6 December 1988, § 77, Series A no. 146, and Telfner v. Austria, no. 33501/96, § 15, 20 March 2001); legal presumptions of fact and law (see Salabiaku v. France, 7 October 1988, § 28, Series A no. 141‑A, and Radio France and Others v. France, no. 53984/00, § 24, ECHR 2004‑II); the privilege against self-incrimination (see Saunders v. the United Kingdom, 17 December 1996, § 68, Reports of Judgments and Decisions 1996‑VI, and Heaney and McGuinness v. Ireland, no. 34720/97, § 40, ECHR 2000‑XII); pre-trial publicity (see Akay v. Turkey (dec.), no. 34501/97, 19 February 2002, and G.C.P. v. Romania, no. 20899/03, § 46, 20 December 2011); and premature expressions, by the trial court or by other public officials, of a defendant’s guilt (see Allenet de Ribemont, cited above, §§ 35-36, and Nešťák v. Slovakia, no. 65559/01, § 88, 27 February 2007).

94.  However, in keeping with the need to ensure that the right guaranteed by Article 6 § 2 is practical and effective, the presumption of innocence also has another aspect. Its general aim, in this second aspect, is to protect individuals who have been acquitted of a criminal charge, or in respect of whom criminal proceedings have been discontinued, from being treated by public officials and authorities as though they are in fact guilty of the offence charged. In these cases, the presumption of innocence has already operated, through the application at trial of the various requirements inherent in the procedural guarantee it affords, to prevent an unfair criminal conviction being imposed. Without protection to ensure respect for the acquittal or the discontinuation decision in any other proceedings, the fair-trial guarantees of Article 6 § 2 could risk becoming theoretical and illusory. What is also at stake once the criminal proceedings have concluded is the person’s reputation and the way in which that person is perceived by the public. To a certain extent, the protection afforded under Article 6 § 2 in this respect may overlap with the protection afforded by Article 8 (see, for example, Zollman v. the United Kingdom (dec.), no. 62902/00, ECHR 2003‑XII, and Taliadorou and Stylianou v. Cyprus, nos. 39627/05 and 39631/05, §§ 27 and 56-59, 16 October 2008).

What is also at stake once the criminal proceedings have concluded is the person’s reputation and the way in which that person is perceived by the public.

Not a minute of any day goes by without someone somewhere posting pejorative perceptions regarding the McCann family and or their holiday companions.  Many quote directly from Amaral and the judges of the Portuguese Supreme Court.
So I think that part is unequivocally proven.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on June 06, 2021, 07:58:25 AM
It isn't a protection applied to civil cases, just to criminal cases.

Cite required
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on June 06, 2021, 08:15:33 AM
What is also at stake once the criminal proceedings have concluded is the person’s reputation and the way in which that person is perceived by the public.

Not a minute of any day goes by without someone somewhere posting pejorative perceptions regarding the McCann family and or their holiday companions.  Many quote directly from Amaral and the judges of the Portuguese Supreme Court.
So I think that part is unequivocally proven.

I don't think posts on social media are going to influence the ECHR judges at all. If the McCann's claims are deemed admissible they are being asked to judge;

a) If the Portuguese courts weighed the interests at stake in accordance with the criteria set out in the Court's case-law.
b) If the reasoning contained in the decisions delivered on 31 January and 21 March 2017 by the Supreme Court in the outcome of the civil liability action violated their right to the presumption of innocence.

Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on June 06, 2021, 08:24:08 AM
Cite required

Article 6:2

Everyone charged with a criminal offence shall be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law.
https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/human-rights-act/article-6-right-fair-trial#:~:text=Article%206%3A%20Right%20to%20a%20fair%20and%20public%20hearing&text=2.,proved%20guilty%20according%20to%20law.

Do you have a cite which says everyone suing or sued in a civil action has this right? If not, then it doesn't apply to civil cases.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on June 06, 2021, 08:48:30 AM
Article 6:2

Everyone charged with a criminal offence shall be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law.
https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/human-rights-act/article-6-right-fair-trial#:~:text=Article%206%3A%20Right%20to%20a%20fair%20and%20public%20hearing&text=2.,proved%20guilty%20according%20to%20law.

Do you have a cite which says everyone suing or sued in a civil action has this right? If not, then it doesn't apply to civil cases.

You are certainly wrong on the first and im absolutely sure you are wrong on the second.

The first.... The ECHR have a broad meaning of the word charged and it applied to every stage of the criminal proceedings including being questioned ss suspects.

The secind part.. The mccanns have the right to tje presumption of innocence from the crriminal process and therefore amaral and the SC are denying their rights under the ECHR by not respecting this.

What you are misunferstanding and I think the SC may have misunderstood is the POI does not apply in a civil court when claiming compensation for wrongful arrest or imprisonment. I had a discussion with I Cant HTTruth  on this point and he agreed with me




The protection of the rights of the claimants to their good name and reputation is, in this case, closely related to the presumption of innocence.




Nevertheless, the Court of Justice of the European Union has decided that the principle of presumption of innocence does not apply to subsequent civil proceedings (mainly compensatory) to criminal proceedings, at risk of depriving the victim of her own right to accede to the courts and to be compensated (Cf. the judgements in Y vs Norvvay (56568/00) of 11/ 5/2003 and Diacendo vs Italy (124/04) of 05/07/2012).
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Carana on June 06, 2021, 09:34:45 AM
Hmm. In one sense, it could be argued that the criminal proceedings hadn't been concluded, but suspended. Hence the grey area: none of the arguidos had been charged, and therefore the presumption of innocence (criminal sense) didn't apply and so continued to be (an often lucrative) free-for-all under the umbrella of freedom of expression.

However, freedoms come with responsibilities. IMO, it would be worth rereading the legal discussion in McCann family vs Amaral et al Judgment Verdict - April 27, 2015

http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/v01.htm



Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on June 06, 2021, 09:57:08 AM
You are certainly wrong on the first and im absolutely sure you are wrong on the second.

The first.... The ECHR have a broad meaning of the word charged and it applied to every stage of the criminal proceedings including being questioned ss suspects.

The secind part.. The mccanns have the right to tje presumption of innocence from the crriminal process and therefore amaral and the SC are denying their rights under the ECHR by not respecting this.

What you are misunferstanding and I think the SC may have misunderstood is the POI does not apply in a civil court when claiming compensation for wrongful arrest or imprisonment. I had a discussion with I Cant HTTruth  on this point and he agreed with me




The protection of the rights of the claimants to their good name and reputation is, in this case, closely related to the presumption of innocence.




Nevertheless, the Court of Justice of the European Union has decided that the principle of presumption of innocence does not apply to subsequent civil proceedings (mainly compensatory) to criminal proceedings, at risk of depriving the victim of her own right to accede to the courts and to be compensated (Cf. the judgements in Y vs Norvvay (56568/00) of 11/ 5/2003 and Diacendo vs Italy (124/04) of 05/07/2012).

That still doesn't demonstrate that Article 6 applies to civil cases.

Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on June 06, 2021, 10:13:24 AM
Hmm. In one sense, it could be argued that the criminal proceedings hadn't been concluded, but suspended. Hence the grey area: none of the arguidos had been charged, and therefore the presumption of innocence (criminal sense) didn't apply and so continued to be (an often lucrative) free-for-all under the umbrella of freedom of expression.

However, freedoms come with responsibilities. IMO, it would be worth rereading the legal discussion in McCann family vs Amaral et al Judgment Verdict - April 27, 2015

http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/v01.htm

The judge of the first instance found in favour of the McCanns by suggesting that Amaral's freedom of expression was limited by the reserve imposed upon him by his status as a retired police officer. The Appeal and Supreme Courts rejected this argument.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: kizzy on June 06, 2021, 10:23:01 AM
Thanks Carana.

Just a waiting game from now on.  I think it is so sad that things have dragged on for as long as they have over a situation which could have been prevented had Amaral chosen either not to have written his book or had chosen to write a different type of book.

which could have been prevented had Amaral chosen either not to have written his book or had chosen to write a different type of book.

FGS, how egocentric and ironic is your post B. imo

If we are going to go on about prevention  ...this could have been prevented if the mccs hadn't left there children alone.

Or if they had chosen to put there childrens welfare first.

The mccs imo were the ones responsible for leaving there children ...

Maddie had a right to be protected....she wasn't


anyone would think the mcs had already won ....they haven't.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on June 06, 2021, 10:25:53 AM
which could have been prevented had Amaral chosen either not to have written his book or had chosen to write a different type of book.

FGS, how egocentric and ironic is your post B. imo

If we are going to go on about prevention  ...this could have been prevented if the mccs hadn't left there children alone.

Or if they had chosen to put there childrens welfare first.

The mccs imo were the ones responsible for leaving there children ...

Maddie had a right to be protected....she wasn't


anyone would think the mcs had already won ....they haven't.
Classic goalpost shifting.  Have you considered that all this could have been avoided if the McCanns had been denied the right to IVF treatment, or had never gotten together in the first place?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on June 06, 2021, 10:38:18 AM
That still doesn't demonstrate that Article 6 applies to civil cases.

Im absolutely certain you are wrong... We will wait and see
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: kizzy on June 06, 2021, 10:39:56 AM
Classic goalpost shifting.  Have you considered that all this could have been avoided if the McCanns had been denied the right to IVF treatment, or had never gotten together in the first place?

Well put it that way if you want...but at least maddie would not have gone through what she did if that had been the case.

A silly post deserves a silly answer imo.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on June 06, 2021, 10:57:18 AM
Well put it that way if you want...but at least maddie would not have gone through what she did if that had been the case.

A silly post deserves a silly answer imo.
So in other words -  because  in your opinion the parents didn’t look after Madeleine properly they deserved to be targets of every accusation Amaral made about them, even if they were untrue, is that right?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: kizzy on June 06, 2021, 10:59:29 AM
So in other words -  because  in your opinion the parents didn’t look after Madeleine properly they deserved to be targets of every accusation Amaral made about them, even if they were untrue, is that right?

How do you know,  whats true and what isn't.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on June 06, 2021, 11:06:47 AM

snip/
Hmm. In one sense, it could be argued that the criminal proceedings hadn't been concluded, but suspended.

I agree that the archiving was a suspension, not a closing of the case. Duarte, however, argued that the archiving dispatch was proof of innocence;

Just as (this STJ's Section) could not assert that it is not acceptable to assimilate the aforementioned filing order to a verified proof of innocence
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Annulment_request.htm
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on June 06, 2021, 11:08:50 AM
How do you know,  whats true and what isn't.
How do you?  You seem to think that regardless of what is true or not the parents deserved every accusation made by Amaral about them, can you please justify this?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: kizzy on June 06, 2021, 11:22:30 AM
How do you?  You seem to think that regardless of what is true or not the parents deserved every accusation made by Amaral about them, can you please justify this?

Well for a start stop trying to drag me into your beliefs.

I believe the mcs were involved, so any accusation towards them does not have the effect with me as it does you.

As for justifying it... why should.. I... do that.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: jassi on June 06, 2021, 11:27:52 AM
Well for a start stop trying to drag me into your beliefs.

I believe the mcs were involved, so any accusation towards them does not have the effect with me as it does you.

As for justifying it... why should.. I... do that.

 8((()*/
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on June 06, 2021, 11:45:39 AM
Well for a start stop trying to drag me into your beliefs.

I believe the mcs were involved, so any accusation towards them does not have the effect with me as it does you.

As for justifying it... why should.. I... do that.
To explain why you think it is only just and fair that people you think are guilty of a crime should be accused publicly of being so, even if they are not actually guilty of the crimes they are being accused of.  Clearly however you cannot.  Nor will you be able to explain what you mean by "dragging me into your beliefs".  I have done no such thing.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on June 06, 2021, 11:56:03 AM
To explain why you think it is only just and fair that people you think are guilty of a crime should be accused publicly of being so, even if they are not actually guilty of the crimes they are being accused of.  Clearly however you cannot.  Nor will you be able to explain what you mean by "dragging me into your beliefs".  I have done no such thing.

If people decide that a particular crime has been committed and use every media available to them to broadcast their opinion then surely those who disagree with them should be allowed the same freedom to express their opinions?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on June 06, 2021, 12:08:29 PM
If people decide that a particular crime has been committed and use every media available to them to broadcast their opinion then surely those who disagree with them should be allowed the same freedom to express their opinions?
So is it your opinion that it is OK to publicly accuse named individuals who have no previous criminal record and are innocent in the eyes of the law of committing a crime, either in a book, or a TV documentary or interview?  Can you answer this question with a yes or no?  A non-answer will be taken as affirmation that this is indeed your view.   
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: kizzy on June 06, 2021, 12:08:43 PM
To explain why you think it is only just and fair that people you think are guilty of a crime should be accused publicly of being so, even if they are not actually guilty of the crimes they are being accused of.  Clearly however you cannot.  Nor will you be able to explain what you mean by "dragging me into your beliefs".  I have done no such thing.

you think are guilty of a crime should be accused publicly of being so, even if they are not actually guilty of the crimes they are being accused of.

I could say the same about CB ...but I wont.

Every coin has two sides ur on one I'm on the other.

One storys good till another one is told.

Until someone decides to look at this imo from the very beginning.

Its going to be like baking bread without the yeast...trying to solve it.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on June 06, 2021, 12:34:21 PM
you think are guilty of a crime should be accused publicly of being so, even if they are not actually guilty of the crimes they are being accused of.

I could say the same about CB ...but I wont.

Every coin has two sides ur on one I'm on the other.

One storys good till another one is told.

Until someone decides to look at this imo from the very beginning.

Its going to be like baking bread without the yeast...trying to solve it.
That is IMO a load of waffle which singularly fails to address my question.  I realise it's a hard one, but an honest debater would face up to it and reply honestly. 
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on June 06, 2021, 01:06:38 PM
If people decide that a particular crime has been committed and use every media available to them to broadcast their opinion then surely those who disagree with them should be allowed the same freedom to express their opinions?

Not if their opinions are libellous. I thought you would understand that
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: kizzy on June 06, 2021, 01:09:14 PM
That is IMO a load of waffle which singularly fails to address my question.  I realise it's a hard one, but an honest debater would face up to it and reply honestly.

Well, tuff VS ...Im not on here to debate something ...I ...believe in.

If I thought the mccs not involved I wouldn't be on here.

Not here to answer questions either I'll do a kmcc,

My reason is to give an opinion in what I believe.

Havent got a lot of time on my hands either.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Brietta on June 06, 2021, 01:21:12 PM
Well, tuff VS ...Im not on here to debate something ...I ...believe in.

If I thought the mccs not involved I wouldn't be on here.

Not here to answer questions either I'll do a kmcc,

My reason is to give an opinion in what I believe.

Havent got a lot of time on my hands either

You are treating the disappearance of a little girl and the resulting botched investigation as if it were a belief system.

Perhaps we wouldn't be having this conversation had Amaral spent more time looking for Madeleine and no time at all blackguarding her parents.

If I remember correctly one of your beliefs was that the ECHR would throw the McCann case out ... yet here we are😁
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: kizzy on June 06, 2021, 01:42:26 PM
You are treating the disappearance of a little girl and the resulting botched investigation as if it were a belief system.

Perhaps we wouldn't be having this conversation had Amaral spent more time looking for Madeleine and no time at all blackguarding her parents.

If I remember correctly one of your beliefs was that the ECHR would throw the McCann case out ... yet here we are😁

You dont know the outcome yet..your acting as if it is all cut and dried when it isn't. B


Relying on Articles 6 §§ 1 and 2, 8 and 10 § 2 of the Convention, the applicants asserted that the allegations made by GA in the book and the documentary in question had infringed their right to respect for their private life and their right to the presumption of innocence. They complain that the domestic courts failed to weigh the interests at stake in accordance with the criteria set out in the Court's case-law.

Why the hell should they have respect for there private life - when they created it in the first place. imo.

Did we need to know about kmc private life what she wrote in her book.

You don't know what would have happened if G.A. would have had more time.  Seems someone made sure didn't.

If, imo G.A hadnt been such a thorn in the mccs side in the first place ..

I doubt the book would have ever been as popular as it is.

The mcs themselves I believe promoted it ...when they were so desperate to have it banned imo
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on June 06, 2021, 01:58:05 PM
You dont know the outcome yet..your acting as if it is all cut and dried when it isn't. B


Relying on Articles 6 §§ 1 and 2, 8 and 10 § 2 of the Convention, the applicants asserted that the allegations made by GA in the book and the documentary in question had infringed their right to respect for their private life and their right to the presumption of innocence. They complain that the domestic courts failed to weigh the interests at stake in accordance with the criteria set out in the Court's case-law.

Why the hell should they have respect for there private life - when they created it in the first place. imo.

Did we need to know about kmc private life what she wrote in her book.

You don't know what would have happened if G.A. would have had more time.  Seems someone made sure didn't.

If, imo G.A hadnt been such a thorn in the mccs side in the first place ..

I doubt the book would have ever been as popular as it is.

The mcs themselves I believe promoted it ...when they were so desperate to have it banned imo

The term private life in this situation refers to the right to reputation.... Not to be libelled
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Carana on June 06, 2021, 02:07:44 PM
The judge of the first instance found in favour of the McCanns by suggesting that Amaral's freedom of expression was limited by the reserve imposed upon him by his status as a retired police officer. The Appeal and Supreme Courts rejected this argument.

Yes, I remember that. However, I haven't found why that aspect seemingly no longer counted.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: jassi on June 06, 2021, 02:28:47 PM
Yes, I remember that. However, I haven't found why that aspect seemingly no longer counted.

Perhaps it was just an incorrect interpretation of the law by the first judge. Does the Appeal Court judgement not mention why they came to their decision ?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on June 06, 2021, 02:57:34 PM
Yes, I remember that. However, I haven't found why that aspect seemingly no longer counted.

The SC judges mentioned it;

We therefore consider that freedom of expression does not either have to yield to the invoked functional duty borne by the respondent, reason why his conduct was not illicit in the terms taken into account in the first instance sentence.
Page 71 http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7937.15
 
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: misty on June 06, 2021, 03:05:48 PM
Hmm. In one sense, it could be argued that the criminal proceedings hadn't been concluded, but suspended. Hence the grey area: none of the arguidos had been charged, and therefore the presumption of innocence (criminal sense) didn't apply and so continued to be (an often lucrative) free-for-all under the umbrella of freedom of expression.

However, freedoms come with responsibilities. IMO, it would be worth rereading the legal discussion in McCann family vs Amaral et al Judgment Verdict - April 27, 2015

http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/v01.htm

Surely if the criminal proceedings had been suspended rather than concluded then everything contained therein would have remained covered by judicial secrecy. It's important to remember that whilst the case continued under judicial secrecy without charges being laid, none of the arguidos had the legal right to publicly defend themselves against PJ accusations leaked into the media.

ETA from the SC ruling http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7937.msg383248#msg383248

"Still, the facts at stake had already been made public by the judicial authority and widely debated, both nationally and internationally. Moreover the investigation was already closed."
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Brietta on June 06, 2021, 03:41:24 PM
You dont know the outcome yet..your acting as if it is all cut and dried when it isn't. B


Relying on Articles 6 §§ 1 and 2, 8 and 10 § 2 of the Convention, the applicants asserted that the allegations made by GA in the book and the documentary in question had infringed their right to respect for their private life and their right to the presumption of innocence. They complain that the domestic courts failed to weigh the interests at stake in accordance with the criteria set out in the Court's case-law.

Why the hell should they have respect for there private life - when they created it in the first place. imo.

Did we need to know about kmc private life what she wrote in her book.

You don't know what would have happened if G.A. would have had more time.  Seems someone made sure didn't.

If, imo G.A hadnt been such a thorn in the mccs side in the first place ..

I doubt the book would have ever been as popular as it is.

The mcs themselves I believe promoted it ...when they were so desperate to have it banned imo

Why the hell should they have respect for there private life - when they created it in the first place. imo.
The simple reason is that under European law Kate and Gerry McCann are entitled to a private life just as is any other human being.

Did we need to know about kmc private life what she wrote in her book.
Kate wrote her book as a vehicle for the truth and telling it as it is; says rather a lot that you appear to be sensitive about the naming of body parts and the effect of trauma on a person's sex drive being relayed first hand.

You don't know what would have happened if G.A. would have had more time.  Seems someone made sure didn't.
Amaral made certain that he 'didn't have more time' when his intemperance ensured that he was sacked from Madeleine's case.  His incompetence had ensured that he had taken the investigation into a dead end: therefore I do know what would have happened had he remained in charge and so it seems did his bosses who lost no time in getting rid unfortunately not in time to undo or rectify his elementary mistakes.

It really didn't require the paranoid conspiracy theories he has continually promoted to explain away his many failures when it can all be covered in one word ~ incompetence.

If, imo G.A hadnt been such a thorn in the mccs side in the first place ..
I'm sorry - I have absolutely no idea what you are saying here but I don't think it was ever Amaral's job to be a thorn in anyone's side; I thought he was supposed to be looking for a missing child.

I doubt the book would have ever been as popular as it is.

The mcs themselves I believe promoted it ...when they were so desperate to have it banned imo
The book was libellous from first page to last but more importantly was interfering with the investigation into Madeleine's case as well as interfering with the possibility that she might be found and returned to them.
               ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Be my guest if you would ignore a book - documentaries - a huge self opinionated media drive reflecting lies and ineptitude as virtues - and ultimately a movie making similar slurs against you.  No normal person would or should be expected to be subjected to that just as no normal person would have been expected to make slurs like that in the first instance.


Maybe it is a Portuguese thing since Amaral has been backed up by the Portuguese Supreme court judges; I think it will be interesting to see what the outcome of the judgement of the ECHR will be since it is yet another achievement for human rights that the case will be heard despite the crowing among sceptics that would never happen.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on June 06, 2021, 03:48:23 PM
Surely if the criminal proceedings had been suspended rather than concluded then everything contained therein would have remained covered by judicial secrecy. It's important to remember that whilst the case continued under judicial secrecy without charges being laid, none of the arguidos had the legal right to publicly defend themselves against PJ accusations leaked into the media.

ETA from the SC ruling http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7937.msg383248#msg383248

"Still, the facts at stake had already been made public by the judicial authority and widely debated, both nationally and internationally. Moreover the investigation was already closed."

There were no criminal procedings because there were no arrests, charges, trial or judgement. There was an investigation which was unable to progress because witnesses refused to cooperate in a reconstitution. There was always the possibility that it could be reopened and continue if new evidence emerged, however.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Brietta on June 06, 2021, 04:06:38 PM
If people decide that a particular crime has been committed and use every media available to them to broadcast their opinion then surely those who disagree with them should be allowed the same freedom to express their opinions?

Civilised countries use lawfully constituted courts and the rule of law to deal with that sort of thing.

What you are advocating is the law of the jungle.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Carana on June 06, 2021, 04:31:08 PM
Surely if the criminal proceedings had been suspended rather than concluded then everything contained therein would have remained covered by judicial secrecy. It's important to remember that whilst the case continued under judicial secrecy without charges being laid, none of the arguidos had the legal right to publicly defend themselves against PJ accusations leaked into the media.

ETA from the SC ruling http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7937.msg383248#msg383248

"Still, the facts at stake had already been made public by the judicial authority and widely debated, both nationally and internationally. Moreover the investigation was already closed."

Criminal proceedings in the sense of the case thus far (the investigation and the prosecutor's evaluation) into a crime against the child. In suspending it, the arguidos were relieved of that status, but, sadly, so was the investigation.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Brietta on June 06, 2021, 04:35:22 PM
There were no criminal procedings because there were no arrests, charges, trial or judgement. There was an investigation which was unable to progress because witnesses refused to cooperate in a reconstitution. There was always the possibility that it could be reopened and continue if new evidence emerged, however.

I think it is simplistic drivel to imagine a reconstitution at that late date was going to change one iota of the final outcome and I think that was as plain as the nose on his face as far as Rebelo was concerned.

Quite simply the Judicial police had ploughed the wrong furrow and wasted a lot of precious time in doing so.

That is easily demonstrated by the amount of attention given to the Mccanns and their friends phone traffic to the exclusion of all else.

Brueckner who at that time was a convicted paedophile who had made his home in Luz and was known about in Portugal as a result of being extradited to Germany wasn't looked at despite his profile and his phone being activated.
According to Amaral the PJ visited him??
Did they have a word or did they miss him.  And if they missed him - how many others of his ilk did they miss. 

It wasn't until the advent of Scotland Yard that anyone bothered with connecting the phone pings of three home grown burglars with the possibility of being connected to Madeleine's case. They didn't have access to Brueckner's file - but the Portuguese did, had they bothered because if he was visited as Amaral affirms there must have been a reason for that.

The information was there in 2007 it just was not accessed properly except in the instance of the McCann party and Murat.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on June 06, 2021, 04:37:13 PM
You dont know the outcome yet..your acting as if it is all cut and dried when it isn't. B


Relying on Articles 6 §§ 1 and 2, 8 and 10 § 2 of the Convention, the applicants asserted that the allegations made by GA in the book and the documentary in question had infringed their right to respect for their private life and their right to the presumption of innocence. They complain that the domestic courts failed to weigh the interests at stake in accordance with the criteria set out in the Court's case-law.

Why the hell should they have respect for there private life - when they created it in the first place. imo.

Did we need to know about kmc private life what she wrote in her book.

You don't know what would have happened if G.A. would have had more time.  Seems someone made sure didn't.

If, imo G.A hadnt been such a thorn in the mccs side in the first place ..

I doubt the book would have ever been as popular as it is.

The mcs themselves I believe promoted it ...when they were so desperate to have it banned imo
The book had already been a best seller and widely reported on throughout the western world before the McCanns took Amaral to court so how do you work that one out?  What you seem to be  saying is that if the McCanns hadn’t sued Amaral the book wouldn’t have been as successful but I’ll wager a thousand pounds that you are unable to back that claim up with anything remotely resembling an actual proven fact.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on June 06, 2021, 04:41:23 PM
There were no criminal procedings because there were no arrests, charges, trial or judgement. There was an investigation which was unable to progress because witnesses refused to cooperate in a reconstitution. There was always the possibility that it could be reopened and continue if new evidence emerged, however.
This is bullcrap of the highest order.  Are you saying that unless a suspect cooperates in a criminal investigation into their own alleged crimes the police are simply forced to give up investigating them? Gimme a break already.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: John on June 06, 2021, 04:44:42 PM
There were no criminal procedings because there were no arrests, charges, trial or judgement. There was an investigation which was unable to progress because witnesses refused to cooperate in a reconstitution. There was always the possibility that it could be reopened and continue if new evidence emerged, however.

This has always concerned me that the tapas group decided between themselves not to cooperate with the Portuguese police in respect of a reconstitution of the events which occurred the night Madeleine disappeared.

What were they scared of exactly?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: jassi on June 06, 2021, 04:49:58 PM
This has always concerned me that the tapas group decided between themselves not to cooperate with the Portuguese police in respect of a reconstitution of the events which occurred the night Madeleine disappeared.

What were they scared of exactly?


The truth - IMO
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on June 06, 2021, 04:57:36 PM
This has always concerned me that the tapas group decided between themselves not to cooperate with the Portuguese police in respect of a reconstitution of the events which occurred the night Madeleine disappeared.

What were they scared of exactly?
unwittingly providing the police with any scrap of ammunition to enable them to press charges on their friends I would imagine.  That plus the horror of once more being thrust under the media and police microscope knowing that submitting to it would do absolutely nothing to help locate Madeleine.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Carana on June 06, 2021, 05:06:17 PM
The SC judges mentioned it;

We therefore consider that freedom of expression does not either have to yield to the invoked functional duty borne by the respondent, reason why his conduct was not illicit in the terms taken into account in the first instance sentence.
Page 71 http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7937.15

Thanks, but I'm none the wiser.

p. 41 McCann family vs Amaral et al Judgment Verdict - April 27, 2015 http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/v01.htm

In the Allen vs UK case, the ECHR emphasized the importance of the presumption after the acquittal or dismissal of the criminal investigation, explaining that this principle prevents suspects or defendants in such cases are treated as if they were in fact responsible for the criminal offences of which they were accused and stressing that without this second level of protection – the level of full respect for acquittal or archiving – the presumption of innocence would remain illusory or merely ideal. ( 27 ) Likewise, the presumption of innocence requires that the absence of guilt that emanates from it is respected, after the acquittal or dismissal, in all legal proceedings of any kind and by any authority that comes into contact with these facts [idem Allen vs United Kingdom].

In this case, the claimants Kate and Gerald MacCann never ceased to benefit from this presumption of innocence and from the behaviour imperative that this presumption places on national judicial and justice authorities and on all the civil servants and agents.



Then, pp 43-44 discuss the "duty of reserve" of former officers.


According to the notice of the Attorney General Department's advisory Council on February 16, 2006 (Esteves Remedio, in www.ministeriopublico.pt )
the legal relationship of retirement is, compared to the legal relationship of public employment, a relationship less intense where there is a blurring of the ties between the retired and the Administration, translated in the reduction of rights and duties. There is even so a "bond to the civil service", which materialises in conserving the titles and the position of the function exercised and the rights and duties that are not dependent on activity status "(emphasis added). The same note concluded that "the retired remains subject to duties of private conduct translated in particular in the abstention of practice of facts integrators of crimes that have a relevant connection with the functions previously carried out and thus affect actually the functioning of the service or in a serious way the dignity and the prestige of the function or of the Administration (idem).




Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on June 06, 2021, 05:10:41 PM
This has always concerned me that the tapas group decided between themselves not to cooperate with the Portuguese police in respect of a reconstitution of the events which occurred the night Madeleine disappeared.

What were they scared of exactly?

They were scared that the PJ truly thought they had proof  that Maddie died in the apartment... GA actually said he had proof...which could result in them all being arrested and held on remand.. Quite frightening
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Carana on June 06, 2021, 05:17:08 PM
This has always concerned me that the tapas group decided between themselves not to cooperate with the Portuguese police in respect of a reconstitution of the events which occurred the night Madeleine disappeared.

What were they scared of exactly?

a) Being subjected to a hostile media circus and b) potentially stitched up?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: misty on June 06, 2021, 05:42:03 PM
There were no criminal procedings because there were no arrests, charges, trial or judgement. There was an investigation which was unable to progress because witnesses refused to cooperate in a reconstitution. There was always the possibility that it could be reopened and continue if new evidence emerged, however.

Investigation is the first phase of criminal proceedings.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Brietta on June 06, 2021, 06:13:02 PM
Investigation is the first phase of criminal proceedings.

Absolutely.
How else does an investigator eliminate or decide to take an investigation further and lay charges if they don't investigate in the first instance as part of the process.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Carana on June 06, 2021, 06:52:29 PM
Investigation is the first phase of criminal proceedings.

That's how I meant it earlier, but now I'm wondering.

There's the "judicial process" (which seems to cover everything), but "criminal proceedings" might only cover the part as of when someone has been arrested on whatever charge(s).

It's been a while since I last delved into an attempt to decipher PT law, so I'm not sure for the moment.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Brietta on June 06, 2021, 07:11:13 PM
That's how I meant it earlier, but now I'm wondering.

There's the "judicial process" (which seems to cover everything), but "criminal proceedings" might only cover the part as of when someone has been arrested on whatever charge(s).

It's been a while since I last delved into an attempt to decipher PT law, so I'm not sure for the moment.

Good luck with that, Carana!
I'm bad enough trying to work out Scots law as it relates to the rest of Britain without delving into a jurisdiction I find far more unfathomable.
Whoever's law it is I think the last thing bothered with is logic.  Your hard work on all the intricacies of DNA along with 'Espacio Exterior' where an excellent explanation was to be found enabled me to get a grasp - I don't think you will manage to pull the rabbit out of the hat for me as far as Portuguese procedures are concerned.  And I'm not even going there for German procedure - I know when I'm beat.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Carana on June 06, 2021, 07:20:07 PM
I still haven't waded into the cases cited, but for the moment it seems to boil down to:

- the parents were never charged, and therefore couldn't benefit from the presumption of innocence (in the criminal procedure sense)

or

- as they were never charged, they retain rights to their honour, good name, etc.

Which is it?

Re Amaral

- once he'd officially left the payroll, he was entitled to say whatever he liked and make an enviable sum of money out of his 5 months on the case accusing the parents of criminal acts, despite the fact that neither the final PJ report nor the prosecutor found anything of substance against them

or

- as a counterpart to the pension and whatever other privileges he retained, he was expected to shut up about cases he'd been involved in and avoid (further) disrepute to his institution

Which is it?

And...

Was the Supreme Court ruling fair?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on June 06, 2021, 07:24:56 PM
I still haven't waded into the cases cited, but for the moment it seems to boil down to:

- the parents were never charged, and therefore couldn't benefit from the presumption of innocence (in the criminal procedure sense)

or

- as they were never charged, they retain rights to their honour, good name, etc.

Which is it?

Re Amaral

- once he'd officially left the payroll, he was entitled to say whatever he liked and make an enviable sum of money out of his 5 months on the case accusing the parents of criminal acts, despite the fact that neither the final PJ report nor the prosecutor found anything of substance against them

or

- as a counterpart to the pension and whatever other privileges he retained, he was expected to shut up about cases he'd been involved in and avoid (further) disrepute to his institution

Which is it?

And...

Was the Supreme Court ruling fair?

They absolutely are entitled to the presumpion of innocence


Directive (EU) 2016/343 — strengthening certain aspects of the presumption of innocence and of the right to be present at the trial in criminal proceedings

WHAT IS THE AIM OF THE DIRECTIVE?

It aims to guarantee:

the presumption of innocence of anyone accused or suspected of a crime by the police or justice authorities;
the right of an accused person to be present at their criminal trial.
KEY POINTS

Scope

The directive applies to any individual (natural person) suspected or accused in criminal proceedings.
It applies at all stages of the criminal proceedings, from the moment a person is suspected or accused of having committed a criminal offence to the final verdict.


https://eur-lex.europa.eu/summary/EN/130107_3


this gives  a definition of criminal proceedings under EU law...which portugal is subject to
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on June 06, 2021, 07:31:54 PM
16. The Court held that a person arrested on suspicion of having committed a criminal offence
(Heaney and McGuinness v. Ireland, § 42; Brusco v. France, §§ 47-50), a suspect questioned about his
involvement in acts constituting a criminal offence (Aleksandr Zaichenko v. Russia, §§ 41-43; Yankov
and Others v. Bulgaria, § 23; Schmid-Laffer v. Switzerland, §§ 30-31) and a person who has been
questioned in respect of his or her suspected involvement in an offence (Stirmanov v. Russia, § 39),
irrespective of the fact that he or she was formally treated as a witness (Kalēja v. Latvia, §§ 36-41) as
well as a person who has been formally charged with a criminal offence under procedure set out in
domestic law (Pélissier and Sassi v. France [GC], § 66; Pedersen and Baadsgaard v. Denmark [GC],
§ 44) could all be regarded as being “charged with a criminal offence” and claim the protection of
Article 6 of the Convention. On the other hand, a person questioned in the context of a border
control, in the absence of a need to determine the existence of a reasonable suspicion that she had
committed an offence, was not considered to be under a criminal charge (Beghal v. the United
Kingdom, § 121)

https://www.echr.coe.int/documents/guide_art_6_criminal_eng.pdf

page 9

Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Carana on June 06, 2021, 07:34:33 PM
Good luck with that, Carana!
I'm bad enough trying to work out Scots law as it relates to the rest of Britain without delving into a jurisdiction I find far more unfathomable.
Whoever's law it is I think the last thing bothered with is logic.  Your hard work on all the intricacies of DNA along with 'Espacio Exterior' where an excellent explanation was to be found enabled me to get a grasp - I don't think you will manage to pull the rabbit out of the hat for me as far as Portuguese procedures are concerned.  And I'm not even going there for German procedure - I know when I'm beat.

LOL Thank you.

Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Brietta on June 06, 2021, 07:42:40 PM
I still haven't waded into the cases cited, but for the moment it seems to boil down to:

- the parents were never charged, and therefore couldn't benefit from the presumption of innocence (in the criminal procedure sense)

or

- as they were never charged, they retain rights to their honour, good name, etc.

Which is it?

Re Amaral

- once he'd officially left the payroll, he was entitled to say whatever he liked and make an enviable sum of money out of his 5 months on the case accusing the parents of criminal acts, despite the fact that neither the final PJ report nor the prosecutor found anything of substance against them

or

- as a counterpart to the pension and whatever other privileges he retained, he was expected to shut up about cases he'd been involved in and avoid (further) disrepute to his institution

Which is it?

And...

Was the Supreme Court ruling fair?

I think -
- as they were never charged, they retain rights to their honour, good name, etc.

Just as I think it could not in conscience be argued otherwise  - as a counterpart to the pension and whatever other privileges he retained, he was expected to shut up about cases he'd been involved in and avoid (further) disrepute to his institution

As far as Was the Supreme Court ruling fair?  Immediately it was released I thought the Supreme Court had overstepped the bounds and left the weary McCanns with no alternative but to take their case to the ECHR.  Which without the allusion to their innocence they might not have bothered to do bearing in mind that 2017 marked the emergence of Brueckner into the mix which I think they probably knew about as Scotland Yard had promised in 2013 that they would be kept in the loop.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Carana on June 06, 2021, 07:44:02 PM
They absolutely are entitled to the presumpion of innocence


Directive (EU) 2016/343 — strengthening certain aspects of the presumption of innocence and of the right to be present at the trial in criminal proceedings

WHAT IS THE AIM OF THE DIRECTIVE?

It aims to guarantee:

the presumption of innocence of anyone accused or suspected of a crime by the police or justice authorities;
the right of an accused person to be present at their criminal trial.
KEY POINTS

Scope

The directive applies to any individual (natural person) suspected or accused in criminal proceedings.
It applies at all stages of the criminal proceedings, from the moment a person is suspected or accused of having committed a criminal offence to the final verdict.


https://eur-lex.europa.eu/summary/EN/130107_3
2016

this gives  a definition of criminal proceedings under EU law...which portugal is subject to

Well done!

Only question: which version of the applicable laws existed at the time?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on June 06, 2021, 07:45:37 PM
Well done!

Only question: which version of the applicable laws existed at the time?

I think whats relevant is the law at the time of the SC judgement... In jan 2017 the SC made a ruling that the mccanns had not been cleared by the archiving depatch as it was not evidence of innocence... That is a denial of tye POI... Clear and simple. No wonder the ECHR saw it as a simple case covered by existing case law
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Carana on June 06, 2021, 08:30:49 PM
I think whats relevant is the law at the time of the SC judgement... In jan 2017 the SC made a ruling that the mccanns had not been cleared by the archiving depatch as it was not evidence of innocence... That is a denial of tye POI... Clear and simple. No wonder the ECHR saw it as a simple case covered by existing case law

Not sure.

Wouldn't the applicable versions of laws date back to when the complaint was filed?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on June 06, 2021, 08:33:49 PM
Not sure.

Wouldn't the applicable versions of laws date back to when the complaint was filed?
I think it was the SC who did not afford them the POI.. Id need to look at their application again.. So it would I think be the date of the SC judgement

The McCanns claim the reasoning in the SC judgement denied them the POI
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: misty on June 06, 2021, 09:02:58 PM
That's how I meant it earlier, but now I'm wondering.

There's the "judicial process" (which seems to cover everything), but "criminal proceedings" might only cover the part as of when someone has been arrested on whatever charge(s).

It's been a while since I last delved into an attempt to decipher PT law, so I'm not sure for the moment.

https://www.legislationline.org/download/id/6422/file/Portugal_CPC_am2015_excerpts_en.pdf
I think Article 58 covers this.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on June 06, 2021, 09:50:21 PM
I think whats relevant is the law at the time of the SC judgement... In jan 2017 the SC made a ruling that the mccanns had not been cleared by the archiving depatch as it was not evidence of innocence... That is a denial of tye POI... Clear and simple. No wonder the ECHR saw it as a simple case covered by existing case law

I assume that you agree with Duarte who claimed that the archiving dispatch was evidence (or was that proof?) of innocence.

According to the SC judges it could have been, had it truly  been archived under 277/1, but in their opinion it was actually archived under 277/2, because it could be reopened. See their reasoning here;

https://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/STJ_21_03_2017_Rejected.htm
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on June 06, 2021, 10:14:22 PM
I assume that you agree with Duarte who claimed that the archiving dispatch was evidence (or was that proof?) of innocence.

According to the SC judges it could have been, had it truly  been archived under 277/1, but in their opinion it was actually archived under 277/2, because it could be reopened. See their reasoning here;

https://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/STJ_21_03_2017_Rejected.htm

Whichever I see it as evidence of innocence but not proof.

But why should the McCanns need evidence when they were entitled to the POI
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Carana on June 06, 2021, 11:26:38 PM
https://www.legislationline.org/download/id/6422/file/Portugal_CPC_am2015_excerpts_en.pdf
I think Article 58 covers this.

Ah. That's ringing a few bells from the long and distant past. I vaguely remember posting on the changes to Art 58 as "founded" had been added to "suspicion" when the law first changed, just after the McCanns became arguidos. And once someone was arguido, the clock was ticking.

Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on June 06, 2021, 11:53:23 PM
Whichever I see it as evidence of innocence but not proof.

But why should the McCanns need evidence when they were entitled to the POI

I think it allowed them to bring the POI into the libel trial.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on June 07, 2021, 07:43:54 AM
I think it allowed them to bring the POI into the libel trial.

A I understand thr POI is routinely allowed in a libel trial
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on June 07, 2021, 08:44:43 AM
A I understand thr POI is routinely allowed in a libel trial

The POI is always present in every criminal case, but not in every libel case.



Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: barrier on June 07, 2021, 09:00:20 AM
Whichever I see it as evidence of innocence but not proof.

But why should the McCanns need evidence when they were entitled to the POI

POI of what exactly ?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on June 07, 2021, 09:12:12 AM
The POI is always present in every criminal case, but not in every libel case.

Ive done more reading... The POI is applicable to a libel case. It seems the SC said it wasnt and if thats true they are wrong. It seems you think a person can say exactly what they want... Can defame others with no proof... That seems to be the case in portugal but not according to thev ECHR.

Thats why imo the ECHR will look at the factual basis of Amarals claims and what evidence he had to support them
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on June 07, 2021, 09:13:50 AM
POI of what exactly ?

Of what amaral was accusing them of... Im surprised you need to be told that
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on June 07, 2021, 09:34:11 AM
POI of what exactly ?

Duarte argued (correctly) that following the archiving of the criminal case the McCanns were still entitled to the protection of the presumption of innocence. Amaral, she asserted, was not allowed to suggest that they might have been guilty because he was a former police officer;

The presumption of innocence prohibits...the premature expression of opinions or beliefs of guilt by the courts but also assumptions by public officers involved in procedures which might lead the public to suspect the responsibility of the suspects in the facts under investigation.
Page 41 http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6307.0

The judge of the first instance used this argument to restrict Amaral's right to freedom of expression and declare the McCann's right to privacy the dominant right.

Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Carana on June 07, 2021, 10:10:10 AM
Ive done more reading... The POI is applicable to a libel case. It seems the SC said it wasnt and if thats true they are wrong. It seems you think a person can say exactly what they want... Can defame others with no proof... That seems to be the case in portugal but not according to thev ECHR.

Thats why imo the ECHR will look at the factual basis of Amarals claims and what evidence he had to support them

I could be wrong, but that's not my understanding.

Mine is that whatever happens next will be about whether the Supreme Court's ruling failed to give sufficient weight to any of the claimants' human rights (including ECHR case rulings) applicable at the time.

IMO, the fact that the submission was considered to be a valid application is an indication that the legal aspects merit further consideration.

IMO, Amaral may well be mentioned as "GA" or "X", but - at this stage - he's irrelevant.





Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Eleanor on June 07, 2021, 10:16:40 AM
Duarte argued (correctly) that following the archiving of the criminal case the McCanns were still entitled to the protection of the presumption of innocence. Amaral, she asserted, was not allowed to suggest that they might have been guilty because he was a former police officer;

The presumption of innocence prohibits...the premature expression of opinions or beliefs of guilt by the courts but also assumptions by public officers involved in procedures which might lead the public to suspect the responsibility of the suspects in the facts under investigation.
Page 41 http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6307.0

The judge of the first instance used this argument to restrict Amaral's right to freedom of expression and declare the McCann's right to privacy the dominant right.

Even The Judge of The First Instance wasn't correct. These right are paramount no matter who is violating those rights.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on June 07, 2021, 10:21:35 AM
I could be wrong, but that's not my understanding.

Mine is that whatever happens next will be about whether the Supreme Court's ruling failed to give sufficient weight to any of the claimants' human rights (including ECHR case rulings) applicable at the time.

IMO, the fact that the submission was considered to be a valid application is an indication that the legal aspects merit further consideration.

IMO, Amaral may well be mentioned as "GA" or "X", but - at this stage - he's irrelevant.
Ive read details of quite a few cased involving the balance between articles 10 and 8 and how the ECHR reached their decision. The ECHR produced a report citing past cases.
I have posted the link here previously.

From whst I have read it depends on whst evidence GS had to support his clsims and whether hid statements gave a balanced view of the evidence. I think he fails on both counts snd the SC were wrong to support him
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on June 07, 2021, 10:50:29 AM
The POI is always present in every criminal case, but not in every libel case.
According to ECHR guidance under article 8 individuals have the right to the POI when accused of a criminal act.
So in the libel trial the McCanns have the right to the POI... If the SC have said any different they are clearly wrong.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: barrier on June 07, 2021, 10:57:59 AM
According to ECHR guidance under article 8 individuals have the right to the POI when accused of a criminal act.
So in the libel trial the McCanns have the right to the POI... If the SC have said any different they are clearly wrong.

Did the McCanns claim Amaral libelled them or did they claim damages to reputation.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on June 07, 2021, 11:09:06 AM
According to ECHR guidance under article 8 individuals have the right to the POI when accused of a criminal act.
So in the libel trial the McCanns have the right to the POI... If the SC have said any different they are clearly wrong.

The SC judges did not suggest that the McCanns were guilty of a crime imo, so didn't breach the McCann's right to the POI.

Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on June 07, 2021, 11:13:06 AM
The SC judges did not suggest that the McCanns were guilty of a crime imo, so didn't breach the McCann's right to the POI.

Amaral accused them of a crime... Thats what the SC judgement was about... They were thetefore entitled to the POI
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on June 07, 2021, 11:26:44 AM
Amaral accused them of a crime... Thats what the SC judgement was about... They were thetefore entitled to the POI

So did others;

"Now the thesis that the minor died accidentally in the apartment and that this fact was hidden by her parents, who spread and fed, in order to deceive, an hypothesis of abduction, is not new, there's nothing new neither in the book, in the interview or in the documentary.

This theory of the facts comes from the own investigation, it is shaped in the chief inspector Tavares de Almeida's report (No. 9), it was an avenue pursued by the investigation (paragraphs 10 and 11), it determined the constitution of the claimants Gerald and Kate McCann as arguidos and was put within the reach of the media, and soon of the general public through a copy of the inquest (paragraphs 65 and 66) .

One wonders then what is the difference between 1) asserting – as it was done at a certain step of the investigation or as many commentators do – that there are indices of accidental death, concealment of the corpse and simulation of crime and 2) supporting this view as did the defendant Goncalo Amaral in those three mediums.
page 34 http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6307.0
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on June 07, 2021, 11:56:49 AM
So did others;

"Now the thesis that the minor died accidentally in the apartment and that this fact was hidden by her parents, who spread and fed, in order to deceive, an hypothesis of abduction, is not new, there's nothing new neither in the book, in the interview or in the documentary.

This theory of the facts comes from the own investigation, it is shaped in the chief inspector Tavares de Almeida's report (No. 9), it was an avenue pursued by the investigation (paragraphs 10 and 11), it determined the constitution of the claimants Gerald and Kate McCann as arguidos and was put within the reach of the media, and soon of the general public through a copy of the inquest (paragraphs 65 and 66) .

One wonders then what is the difference between 1) asserting – as it was done at a certain step of the investigation or as many commentators do – that there are indices of accidental death, concealment of the corpse and simulation of crime and 2) supporting this view as did the defendant Goncalo Amaral in those three mediums.
page 34 http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6307.0

The fact that others did makes no differnce..
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on June 07, 2021, 12:14:20 PM
The fact that others did makes no differnce..

Oh but it did. It resulted in the judge of the first instance using Amaral's status as a retired officer of the PJ to restrict his freedom of expression. That suggests that he could have written his book without censure if he'd been a retired estate agent.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Eleanor on June 07, 2021, 12:24:16 PM
Oh but it did. It resulted in the judge of the first instance using Amaral's status as a retired officer of the PJ to restrict his freedom of expression. That suggests that he could have written his book without censure if he'd been a retired estate agent.

That is why The Judge of The First Instance was wrong.  Presuming that this is what was meant.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on June 07, 2021, 12:36:31 PM
Oh but it did. It resulted in the judge of the first instance using Amaral's status as a retired officer of the PJ to restrict his freedom of expression. That suggests that he could have written his book without censure if he'd been a retired estate agent.
How so?  I thought part of Amaral's defence was that he was the cop on the case and was therefore only expressing his honestly formed opinion of the evidence he and his team had collected which would not have applied in the case of a retired estate agent...?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: misty on June 07, 2021, 12:38:11 PM
Oh but it did. It resulted in the judge of the first instance using Amaral's status as a retired officer of the PJ to restrict his freedom of expression. That suggests that he could have written his book without censure if he'd been a retired estate agent.

The first instance judge was correct. Unlike Amaral, an estate agent, or any layperson, would not have seen the contents of Tavares de Almeida's interim report before such a hypothetical book was published. The defence of qualified privilege is not applicable to an ex-police officer, as the first instance judge rightly stated.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: kizzy on June 07, 2021, 12:41:59 PM
So all those saying Amaral would not feature are wrong... As I claimed from the start.... And the infringment is the presumption of innocence and the balance between articles 8 and 10...as I said from the start

Well apparently


He is named, because it was his book which started it all off.

But the case against him personally has been fought, and lost.
 
Then lost again, and then lost a third time



Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on June 07, 2021, 12:44:07 PM
Oh but it did. It resulted in the judge of the first instance using Amaral's status as a retired officer of the PJ to restrict his freedom of expression. That suggests that he could have written his book without censure if he'd been a retired estate agent.

If you read the ECHR guidance on article 8 it says law enforcement officers should be particularly cateful as they may have specific knowledge. An estate agent couldnt have written the book as they didnt have access to the files. If they wrote a similar book it could still be libellous
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on June 07, 2021, 12:45:36 PM
Well apparently


He is named, because it was his book which started it all off.

But the case against him personally has been fought, and lost.
 
Then lost again, and then lost a third time


Posters here said the action has nothing to do with amaral.. They have bren shown to be wrong
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: kizzy on June 07, 2021, 12:50:28 PM
Posters here said the action has nothing to do with amaral.. They have bren shown to be wrong

Well imo it isn't ...its against portugal.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on June 07, 2021, 12:51:52 PM
That is why The Judge of The First Instance was wrong.  Presuming that this is what was meant.

The Appeal and Supreme Courts agreed with you, she was wrong. Amaral's retired status didn't restrict his right to freedom of expression. Nor, as the SC judges ruled, did it prevent him from expressing his opinion that, despite the lack of evidence proving it, the McCanns daughter died accidentally and they hid that from the authorities.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on June 07, 2021, 12:53:29 PM
Well apparently


He is named, because it was his book which started it all off.

But the case against him personally has been fought, and lost.
 
Then lost again, and then lost a third time


I think you will find it was lost because the SC failed in their duty to uphold European Law. Amarsl has been quiet for a long time..if he repeats his allegations he could find himself back in a Portuguese court
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: barrier on June 07, 2021, 01:30:33 PM
I think you will find it was lost because the SC failed in their duty to uphold European Law. Amarsl has been quiet for a long time..if he repeats his allegations he could find himself back in a Portuguese court


I think its best to wait on the echr rather than make idle speculation.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on June 07, 2021, 01:45:58 PM
If you read the ECHR guidance on article 8 it says law enforcement officers should be particularly cateful as they may have specific knowledge. An estate agent couldnt have written the book as they didnt have access to the files. If they wrote a similar book it could still be libellous

I haven't seen the bolded information, please provide a link.

An estate agent could have written the book using the released PJ Files. Opinion, which is what Amaral claimed his book was, is not usually seen as defamatory.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on June 07, 2021, 01:55:13 PM
I haven't seen the bolded information, please provide a link.

An estate agent could have written the book using the released PJ Files. Opinion, which is what Amaral claimed his book was, is not usually seen as defamatory.

Of course opinion is defamatory. Amaral claimed he could provve MM died in  the apartment and the death was covered up
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on June 07, 2021, 02:19:45 PM
Of course opinion is defamatory. Amaral claimed he could provve MM died in  the apartment and the death was covered up

I think you forgot the link I requested.

I don't know about Portugal, but Carter Ruck say;


(2) Honest Opinion: it is a defence to a defamation claim if the publisher can show that what they published was a statement of opinion; that the statement complained of indicated the basis of that opinion; and that an honest person could have held the opinion based on any fact which existed at the time the statement was made. The defence is defeated if the claimant can show that the defendant did in fact not hold the opinion.
https://www.carter-ruck.com/expertise/reputation-media-privacy/defamation-faqs/#:~:text=(2)%20Honest%20Opinion%3A%20it,at%20the%20time%20the%20statement

Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on June 07, 2021, 02:36:15 PM
I think you forgot the link I requested.

I don't know about Portugal, but Carter Ruck say;


(2) Honest Opinion: it is a defence to a defamation claim if the publisher can show that what they published was a statement of opinion; that the statement complained of indicated the basis of that opinion; and that an honest person could have held the opinion based on any fact which existed at the time the statement was made. The defence is defeated if the claimant can show that the defendant did in fact not hold the opinion.
https://www.carter-ruck.com/expertise/reputation-media-privacy/defamation-faqs/#:~:text=(2)%20Honest%20Opinion%3A%20it,at%20the%20time%20the%20statement

Honest opinion is not as simple as that.... If it was then Tony wouldnt have agreed to settle

Honest opinion has to be based on true facts.. It is not a true fact that the dogs alerted to the past presence if a cadaver in 5a...there are lots more
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on June 07, 2021, 03:11:26 PM
I think you forgot the link I requested.

I don't know about Portugal, but Carter Ruck say;


(2) Honest Opinion: it is a defence to a defamation claim if the publisher can show that what they published was a statement of opinion; that the statement complained of indicated the basis of that opinion; and that an honest person could have held the opinion based on any fact which existed at the time the statement was made. The defence is defeated if the claimant can show that the defendant did in fact not hold the opinion.
https://www.carter-ruck.com/expertise/reputation-media-privacy/defamation-faqs/#:~:text=(2)%20Honest%20Opinion%3A%20it,at%20the%20time%20the%20statement


Just on excert from teh book...


English and Portuguese police get together to analyse the results of Eddie and Keela's searches.

- What we can deduce at this stage is that only the McCanns are implicated. The dogs did not detect blood or cadaver odour other than with them.

- From now on we have the certainty that there was a body behind the sofa before being taken into the parents' bedroom.

- If the blood found behind the sofa is that of the little girl, we can assume that she died there.


So is it clear Amaral is only giving opinion....and how much of his opinion is based on true facts. it is no wonder that some people who are not faniliar with the true facts beleive amarals rubbis. Not only that he is saying that UK police were there at the meeting and helped form the conclusions...absolute junk

Mark Harrison describes a meeting where Grime expalined to the portuguese taht the alerts confirmed nothing



Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on June 07, 2021, 05:59:57 PM
Honest opinion is not as simple as that.... If it was then Tony wouldnt have agreed to settle

Honest opinion has to be based on true facts.. It is not a true fact that the dogs alerted to the past presence if a cadaver in 5a...there are lots more

Still no sign of the link I requested. Who the heck is Tony?

PROVEN FACTS

6. The British police dogs “Eddie” and “Keela” detected human blood and cadaver in the apartment 5A, Ocean Club [alínea AR) of the undisputed facts].

7. The British police dogs “Eddie” and “Keela” detected human blood and cadaver in a vehicle rented by the claimants after the disappearance of MMC [alínea AS) of the undisputed facts].
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6307.0 page 8
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on June 07, 2021, 07:00:00 PM
Still no sign of the link I requested. Who the heck is Tony?

PROVEN FACTS

6. The British police dogs “Eddie” and “Keela” detected human blood and cadaver in the apartment 5A, Ocean Club [alínea AR) of the undisputed facts].

7. The British police dogs “Eddie” and “Keela” detected human blood and cadaver in a vehicle rented by the claimants after the disappearance of MMC [alínea AS) of the undisputed facts].
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6307.0 page 8

But that isnt true... Amaral and the rest of thr PJ were told it wasnt true.... Its in the files. Its no wonder the SC said thete wad insufficient as opposed to no evidence... They must hsve brlieved the BS
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on June 07, 2021, 07:10:12 PM
Still no sign of the link I requested. Who the heck is Tony?

PROVEN FACTS

6. The British police dogs “Eddie” and “Keela” detected human blood and cadaver in the apartment 5A, Ocean Club [alínea AR) of the undisputed facts].

7. The British police dogs “Eddie” and “Keela” detected human blood and cadaver in a vehicle rented by the claimants after the disappearance of MMC [alínea AS) of the undisputed facts].
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6307.0 page 8
Out of interest how were these facts proved?  On what evidence or whose say so?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: kizzy on June 07, 2021, 07:10:38 PM
I think you will find it was lost because the SC failed in their duty to uphold European Law. Amarsl has been quiet for a long time..if he repeats his allegations he could find himself back in a Portuguese court

.if he repeats his allegations he could find himself back in a Portuguese court



Is that in your opinion .....we don't know they are allegations imo. The abduction has never been proved.



the cases they are relying on were in several cases quoted as precedents by the Supreme Court In Portugal.
So how they think they help their case is a mystery

Larrañaga v Spain was thrown out before a hearing and is therefore NOT a precedent which can be used in a legal argument
Axel Springer ruled in favour of freedom of publication


Von Hannover also ruled in favour of publication on the grounds that von Hannover (Royal family of Monaco) seek publicity, and therefore cannot suddenly complain about Press intrusion (Like the McCanns ? ? ? ?)
Bedat lost on a technicality and had to pay €40

Allen, the UK case, is an important one.    She was found guilty, imprisoned, and then the verdict was annulled when new evidence came to light.   The DPP decided not to enter another prosecution because she had already done some prison time, and it was simply not worth it.  She claimed compensation, claiming the lack of prosecution proved her INNOCENCE.    The ECHR held it did not.
   
The Supreme Court went through this case (Allen) in detail, and showed how it related to the McCanns, then went on to say that the shelving of the case did NOT indicate their innocence.   Only that there was insufficient evidence to prosecute, which is not the same thing.




Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on June 07, 2021, 07:39:03 PM

.if he repeats his allegations he could find himself back in a Portuguese court



Is that in your opinion .....we don't know they are allegations imo. The abduction has never been proved.



the cases they are relying on were in several cases quoted as precedents by the Supreme Court In Portugal.
So how they think they help their case is a mystery

Larrañaga v Spain was thrown out before a hearing and is therefore NOT a precedent which can be used in a legal argument
Axel Springer ruled in favour of freedom of publication


Von Hannover also ruled in favour of publication on the grounds that von Hannover (Royal family of Monaco) seek publicity, and therefore cannot suddenly complain about Press intrusion (Like the McCanns ? ? ? ?)
Bedat lost on a technicality and had to pay €40

Allen, the UK case, is an important one.    She was found guilty, imprisoned, and then the verdict was annulled when new evidence came to light.   The DPP decided not to enter another prosecution because she had already done some prison time, and it was simply not worth it.  She claimed compensation, claiming the lack of prosecution proved her INNOCENCE.    The ECHR held it did not.
   
The Supreme Court went through this case (Allen) in detail, and showed how it related to the McCanns, then went on to say that the shelving of the case did NOT indicate their innocence.   Only that there was insufficient evidence to prosecute, which is not the same thing.


Copied and pasted from cmomm... I wonder if you actuallly read it..
Axel Springer claimed article 8 on the basis s newspaper said he had been arrested for possession of cocaine..

Do you know why the ECHR ruled in favour of freedom of speech... I do..

Because he had been arrested for possession of cocaine..

In Allen Vs ECHR.. Allen was wrong to think her aquittal proved her innocence.... Tje mccanns never claimed the arvhiving despatch proved innocence.

Petermac needs to understand the cases he quotes but he doesnt have to... Because some people just believe any old rubbish as long as its anti mccann

Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on June 07, 2021, 09:38:55 PM
But that isnt true... Amaral and the rest of thr PJ were told it wasnt true.... Its in the files. Its no wonder the SC said thete wad insufficient as opposed to no evidence... They must hsve brlieved the BS

I have no idea why or how the proven and unproven facts emerged, but they are listed and they exist.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on June 07, 2021, 09:52:24 PM
I have no idea why or how the proven and unproven facts emerged, but they are listed and they exist.

And they are not true. How can you explain Amarals total ignorance when it comes to the alerts
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on June 07, 2021, 10:55:41 PM
And they are not true. How can you explain Amarals total ignorance when it comes to the alerts

That's your opinion, but you can't deny that the dogs alerted. You also can't deny what they were trained to alert to.
It's reasonable to assume that they found what they were trained to find. 
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on June 07, 2021, 11:04:27 PM
That's your opinion, but you can't deny that the dogs alerted. You also can't deny what they were trained to alert to.
It's reasonable to assume that they found what they were trained to find.
Is it reasonable to assume when people’s reputation, livelihoods and liberty are at stake?  Really, you do surprise me sometimes.  What happened to your ABC?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on June 08, 2021, 05:59:10 AM
Is it reasonable to assume when people’s reputation, livelihoods and liberty are at stake?  Really, you do surprise me sometimes.  What happened to your ABC?

Whose reputations, livelihoods and liberty were at stake in this libel trial?

Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Carana on June 08, 2021, 07:07:59 AM
Out of interest how were these facts proved?  On what evidence or whose say so?

Grime's report, presumably. When Gerry tried to counter that assumption, he was told it wasn't a criminal case.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on June 08, 2021, 07:08:17 AM
Whose reputations, livelihoods and liberty were at stake in this libel trial?
Well the McCanns’ reputation was certainly at stake, but I was talking more about the general principle of assuming the dog alerts were correct without any corrobooration in any court of law.  Nicely sidestepped btw.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on June 08, 2021, 07:10:42 AM
Grime's report, presumably. When Gerry tried to counter that assumption, he was told it wasn't a criminal case.
Grime’s report proves nothing, he even says as much in it himself.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Carana on June 08, 2021, 07:20:29 AM
That's your opinion, but you can't deny that the dogs alerted. You also can't deny what they were trained to alert to.
It's reasonable to assume that they found what they were trained to find.

Except that nothing of relevance was found...
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Carana on June 08, 2021, 07:27:10 AM
Grime’s report proves nothing, he even says as much in it himself.

I know, but the judge presumably checked the files to see whether it was a total invention or if there was anything to that effect in the files.

In theory, Amaral could have said that they ate puppies for breakfast if someone had been on file as saying it.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on June 08, 2021, 07:39:58 AM
That's your opinion, but you can't deny that the dogs alerted. You also can't deny what they were trained to alert to.
It's reasonable to assume that they found what they were trained to find.
That is the probably one of the worst most illogical posts you have ever made showing total ignorance of the evidence.
No its not reasonable to sssume the alerts were to what they had trained for... Unless eddie was trained to alert for coconuts.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Carana on June 08, 2021, 07:49:08 AM
I assume that you agree with Duarte who claimed that the archiving dispatch was evidence (or was that proof?) of innocence.

According to the SC judges it could have been, had it truly  been archived under 277/1, but in their opinion it was actually archived under 277/2, because it could be reopened. See their reasoning here;

https://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/STJ_21_03_2017_Rejected.htm

This bit doesn't seem to make sense. As arguidos, POI applied... but when that status was lifted, it doesn't any more?

...Thus, it does not appear acceptable to consider that the alluded dispatch, based on the insufficiency of evidence, should be treated as evidence of innocence.

We consider, therefore, that the invocation of breach of the principle of presumption of innocence should not be upheld. That principle does not fall under the decision about the question that has to be resolved.

Consequently, the bases for the conclusion that invoking the breach of the principle of presumption of innocence should not be upheld, since that principle is not relevant for the decision at stake, are the various grounds alluded to in the text transcribed above. In other words, what is called upon right from the outset is that this principle is a rule of treatment to bestow upon the defendant throughout the criminal judicial process. At present, however, the issue is only the civil responsibility of the respondents. The above conclusion does not collide with the grounds on which it relies.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on June 08, 2021, 07:52:26 AM
This bit doesn't seem to make sense. As arguidos, POI applied... but when that status was lifted, it doesn't any more?

...Thus, it does not appear acceptable to consider that the alluded dispatch, based on the insufficiency of evidence, should be treated as evidence of innocence.

We consider, therefore, that the invocation of breach of the principle of presumption of innocence should not be upheld. That principle does not fall under the decision about the question that has to be resolved.

Consequently, the bases for the conclusion that invoking the breach of the principle of presumption of innocence should not be upheld, since that principle is not relevant for the decision at stake, are the various grounds alluded to in the text transcribed above. In other words, what is called upon right from the outset is that this principle is a rule of treatment to bestow upon the defendant throughout the criminal judicial process. At present, however, the issue is only the civil responsibility of the respondents. The above conclusion does not collide with the grounds on which it relies.


I dont see how anyone cannot see the archiving despatch as evidence of innocence... Not proof.... But evidence
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Brietta on June 08, 2021, 08:13:41 AM
That's your opinion, but you can't deny that the dogs alerted. You also can't deny what they were trained to alert to.
It's reasonable to assume that they found what they were trained to find.

I think it is duplicitous to repeat for 'debating' purposes the ill conceived errors made by Amaral as recorded for posterity by Almeida as anything other than a record of their incompetence and ignorance.

Eddie 'alerted' amazingly only in areas associated with the McCanns when he was in Luz.  But Eddie was an excitable wee dog prone to indulging paroxysms of barking when he was on the job to no useful or rational effect.
This was noted in the final Policia Judiciaria report (the one that matters) by officers who understood the FSS report.

His excitability to no effect is recorded during the debacle of his visit to Haute de la Garenne in Jersey http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2874.msg99065#msg99065   where no doubt he thought he was responding as he was trained to do.
Only problem was that he most certainly did not "find what he was trained to find" neither here nor in Luz.

I'm rather hoping that the ECHR will make an informed ruling based on the facts rather than the fantasy. 
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on June 08, 2021, 08:18:42 AM
This bit doesn't seem to make sense. As arguidos, POI applied... but when that status was lifted, it doesn't any more?

...Thus, it does not appear acceptable to consider that the alluded dispatch, based on the insufficiency of evidence, should be treated as evidence of innocence.

We consider, therefore, that the invocation of breach of the principle of presumption of innocence should not be upheld. That principle does not fall under the decision about the question that has to be resolved.

Consequently, the bases for the conclusion that invoking the breach of the principle of presumption of innocence should not be upheld, since that principle is not relevant for the decision at stake, are the various grounds alluded to in the text transcribed above. In other words, what is called upon right from the outset is that this principle is a rule of treatment to bestow upon the defendant throughout the criminal judicial process. At present, however, the issue is only the civil responsibility of the respondents. The above conclusion does not collide with the grounds on which it relies.


According to ECHR guidance re article 8 in any  allegations
of criminal activity the person is entitled to the POI... Ill post the link later
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on June 08, 2021, 08:38:51 AM
That is the probably one of the worst most illogical posts you have ever made showing total ignorance of the evidence.
No its not reasonable to sssume the alerts were to what they had trained for... Unless eddie was trained to alert for coconuts.

Whatever you think, the proven and unproven facts were arrived at by the judge of the first instance and the lawyers representing the parties in the case accepted them.

Gerry McCann tried to interest the judge in his opinion of the dog alerts, but she wasn't interested;

"GMC - I want to speak about the sniffer dogs. They never alerted to any blood in the car and they never alerted to cadaver odour...

Judge [interrupts] – We are not here to ascertain that, our perspective here in this court is to analyse your claim.
GMC – But the book mentions facts that aren't true.

Judge – To decide that there are already forensic experts. We are not here to prove if the contents of the book are truthful or not. Here we are only trying to establish if the freedom of expression of the defendants has affected the rights of the claimants. This court cannot be a substitute of the criminal investigation. [Turns to the interpreter] Tell the gentleman that he is excused."
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=4746.0
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Eleanor on June 08, 2021, 08:46:40 AM
Whatever you think, the proven and unproven facts were arrived at by the judge of the first instance and the lawyers representing the parties in the case accepted them.

Gerry McCann tried to interest the judge in his opinion of the dog alerts, but she wasn't interested;

"GMC - I want to speak about the sniffer dogs. They never alerted to any blood in the car and they never alerted to cadaver odour...

Judge [interrupts] – We are not here to ascertain that, our perspective here in this court is to analyse your claim.
GMC – But the book mentions facts that aren't true.

Judge – To decide that there are already forensic experts. We are not here to prove if the contents of the book are truthful or not. Here we are only trying to establish if the freedom of expression of the defendants has affected the rights of the claimants. This court cannot be a substitute of the criminal investigation. [Turns to the interpreter] Tell the gentleman that he is excused."
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=4746.0

Anyone who has any faith in Portuguese Law has got a serious problem.  That much I have learned.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on June 08, 2021, 08:53:15 AM
Whatever you think, the proven and unproven facts were arrived at by the judge of the first instance and the lawyers representing the parties in the case accepted them.

Gerry McCann tried to interest the judge in his opinion of the dog alerts, but she wasn't interested;

"GMC - I want to speak about the sniffer dogs. They never alerted to any blood in the car and they never alerted to cadaver odour...

Judge [interrupts] – We are not here to ascertain that, our perspective here in this court is to analyse your claim.
GMC – But the book mentions facts that aren't true.

Judge – To decide that there are already forensic experts. We are not here to prove if the contents of the book are truthful or not. Here we are only trying to establish if the freedom of expression of the defendants has affected the rights of the claimants. This court cannot be a substitute of the criminal investigation. [Turns to the interpreter] Tell the gentleman that he is excused."
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=4746.0
Thr point is the claim by Amaral isnt true... There is no confirmation of the alerts as  Amaral claims. As Ive wexplained to you the ECHR will be concerned with the veracity of tje claims.
Harrison describes a meeting with tje PJ where he and Grime explain the value if the alerts

Amaral claims a meeting where both PJ and UK police agree that the alerts cinfirm a cadaver in 5a

Someone is telling lies
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on June 08, 2021, 09:16:43 AM
Anyone who has any faith in Portuguese Law has got a serious problem.  That much I have learned.

Goncalo Amaral had faith in Portugal's legal system. It took a long time, but his faith was repaid eventually.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Eleanor on June 08, 2021, 09:34:36 AM
Goncalo Amaral had faith in Portugal's legal system. It took a long time, but his faith was repaid eventually.

Even if only briefly if what I have read is anything to go on.  And much good it hasn't done for him.

Sadly as ever, we still have to wait and see.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on June 08, 2021, 09:34:45 AM
Goncalo Amaral had faith in Portugal's legal system. It took a long time, but his faith was repaid eventually.
The Portuguese legal system is an ass IMO, and in this instance it was a donkey that was rewarded by it IMO.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Eleanor on June 08, 2021, 09:46:45 AM
The Portuguese legal system is an ass IMO, and in this instance it was a donkey that was rewarded by it IMO.

I think "Arse" is a more appropriate word.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on June 08, 2021, 10:50:57 AM
I have no strong feelings about the Portuguese legal system. It's not perfect, but I don't know of any system which is. I suspect that some of those who criticise it do so because it didn't deliver the results that a certain couple wanted it to. Hopefully the same opprobrium won't be levelled at the ECHR if they also disappoint.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Eleanor on June 08, 2021, 10:53:47 AM
I have no strong feelings about the Portuguese legal system. It's not perfect, but I don't know of any system which is. I suspect that some of those who criticise it do so because it didn't deliver the results that a certain couple wanted it to. Hopefully the same opprobrium won't be levelled at the ECHR if they also disappoint.

And the same to you too.  That would be interesting.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: jassi on June 08, 2021, 10:54:51 AM
I understand there really is nowhere to go after the ECHR, so the outcome will need to be accepted whatever and Madeleine will still be missing
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on June 08, 2021, 11:10:11 AM
I have no strong feelings about the Portuguese legal system. It's not perfect, but I don't know of any system which is. I suspect that some of those who criticise it do so because it didn't deliver the results that a certain couple wanted it to. Hopefully the same opprobrium won't be levelled at the ECHR if they also disappoint.

All I would like to see is the law justly applied.. The law isnt always fair but its the law. I have faith that the ECHR will apply the law justly.. Whatever the outcome is it has to be accepted as correct. If it finds in favour of the McCanns Im confident it will be heavily criticised
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: kizzy on June 08, 2021, 11:26:09 AM
Copied and pasted from cmomm... I wonder if you actuallly read it..
Axel Springer claimed article 8 on the basis s newspaper said he had been arrested for possession of cocaine..

Do you know why the ECHR ruled in favour of freedom of speech... I do..

Because he had been arrested for possession of cocaine..

In Allen Vs ECHR.. Allen was wrong to think her aquittal proved her innocence.... Tje mccanns never claimed the arvhiving despatch proved innocence.

Petermac needs to understand the cases he quotes but he doesnt have to... Because some people just believe any old rubbish as long as its anti mccann

. Because some people just believe any old rubbish as long as its anti mccann






Don't you think the same applies with your posts were wolt is concerned
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: kizzy on June 08, 2021, 11:40:10 AM
All I would like to see is the law justly applied.. The law isnt always fair but its the law. I have faith that the ECHR will apply the law justly.. Whatever the outcome is it has to be accepted as correct. If it finds in favour of the McCanns Im confident it will be heavily criticised

Well it seems they have categorised it.... as low important.

Importance level: Low importance
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on June 08, 2021, 11:57:19 AM
All I would like to see is the law justly applied.. The law isnt always fair but its the law. I have faith that the ECHR will apply the law justly.. Whatever the outcome is it has to be accepted as correct. If it finds in favour of the McCanns Im confident it will be heavily criticised

Hopefully any criticism will be fair and restrained. Saying any legal system is an ass (or arse) is neither imo.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on June 08, 2021, 12:15:56 PM
Hopefully any criticism will be fair and restrained. Saying any legal system is an ass (or arse) is neither imo.

I think it's s deserved description. I think the description of Wolters is unfair and unjustified
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on June 08, 2021, 12:42:39 PM
Hopefully any criticism will be fair and restrained. Saying any legal system is an ass (or arse) is neither imo.
Au contraire, I think it is perfectly justifiable expression and one long rooted in literature

 'the law is an ass' is from a play published by the English dramatist George Chapman in 1654 - Revenge for Honour:

Ere he shall lose an eye for such a trifle... For doing deeds of nature! I'm ashamed. The law is such an ass.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on June 08, 2021, 12:55:48 PM
Well it seems they have categorised it.... as low important.

Importance level: Low importance

Do you know what is meant by Low Importance.
I dont think you do.
It mesns the priciples involved are already covered by existing case law... Quite a few people think it means thr csde is of low importance... It doesnt
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on June 08, 2021, 01:00:34 PM
Au contraire, I think it is perfectly justifiable expression and one long rooted in literature

 'the law is an ass' is from a play published by the English dramatist George Chapman in 1654 - Revenge for Honour:

Ere he shall lose an eye for such a trifle... For doing deeds of nature! I'm ashamed. The law is such an ass.

Complaints about the law often come from those who resent it's rulings imo.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on June 08, 2021, 01:37:16 PM
Complaints about the law often come from those who resent it's rulings imo.
Well they’re hardly going to come from people who have had a ruling in their favour are they?!
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: kizzy on June 08, 2021, 03:05:43 PM
Do you know what is meant by Low Importance.
I dont think you do.
It mesns the priciples involved are already covered by existing case law... Quite a few people think it means thr csde is of low importance... It doesnt

Oh, lol and here's me thinking it meant this ....mid you I think it does


3 = Low importance: Judgments, decisions and advisory opinions of little legal interest, namely judgments and decisions that simply apply existing case-law, friendly settlements and strike outs (unless raising a particular point of interest). The importance levels are mentioned in the notice accompanying each document.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: jassi on June 08, 2021, 03:14:52 PM
Oh, lol and here's me thinking it meant this ....mid you I think it does


3 = Low importance: Judgments, decisions and advisory opinions of little legal interest, namely judgments and decisions that simply apply existing case-law, friendly settlements and strike outs (unless raising a particular point of interest). The importance levels are mentioned in the notice accompanying each document.

I think it implies boring and  bog standard and we'll get  around to it when we have time   8(0(*
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on June 08, 2021, 03:15:22 PM
Oh, lol and here's me thinking it meant this ....mid you I think it does


3 = Low importance: Judgments, decisions and advisory opinions of little legal interest, namely judgments and decisions that simply apply existing case-law, friendly settlements and strike outs (unless raising a particular point of interest). The importance levels are mentioned in the notice accompanying each document.
that’s exactly what Davel said, you’ve just confirmed it.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: kizzy on June 08, 2021, 03:19:39 PM
that’s exactly what Davel said, you’ve just confirmed it.

Well you can certainly understand my post better than his.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on June 14, 2021, 03:01:45 PM
Well you can certainly understand my post better than his.

Some people just can't get to grips with some things.  For example 'Presumed innocent' doesn't mean they are innocent, being suspected without enough evidence to convict is a legitimate legal status. That is why it is said to be 'presumed innocent' until convicted and found to be guilty.

The PJ  found they did not have enough evidence, but imo they did suspect they have not told the truth  about certain things pertaining to their daughter disappearance.  The case is still being investigated. Amaral has nothing to do with this casse as their claim is against a countries legal system not  a person.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on June 14, 2021, 03:15:24 PM
Some people just can't get to grips with some things.  For example 'Presumed innocent' doesn't mean they are innocent, being suspected without enough evidence to convict is a legitimate legal status. That is why it is said to be 'presumed innocent' until convicted and found to be guilty.

The PJ  found they did not have enough evidence,   The case is still being investigated. Amaral has nothing to do with this casse as their claim is against a countries legal system not  a person.

I think you will find most posters understand what Presumed Innocent means.
The ECHR case will concern Amaral...not directly but it relates to what he wrote and how much evidence he had to support his claims. Then if thecCanns are successful which judging by previous case law they will be....  if Amaral repeats his claims he could end up back in court
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on June 14, 2021, 04:37:06 PM
I think you will find most posters understand what Presumed Innocent means.
The ECHR case will concern Amaral...not directly but it relates to what he wrote and how much evidence he had to support his claims. Then if thecCanns are successful which judging by previous case law they will be....  if Amaral repeats his claims he could end up back in court

Which court?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on June 14, 2021, 04:46:03 PM
Which court?

A Portuguese court of course
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on June 14, 2021, 04:48:40 PM
A Portuguese court of course

Oh..... the non libel- libel trial court? That would be cool.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on June 14, 2021, 04:56:50 PM
Oh..... the non libel- libel trial court? That would be cool.

Its been confirmed that one oof the two points in question is article 8 whichcovers defamation/libel
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on June 22, 2021, 01:20:23 PM
Still no sign of the link I requested. Who the heck is Tony?

PROVEN FACTS

6. The British police dogs “Eddie” and “Keela” detected human blood and cadaver in the apartment 5A, Ocean Club [alínea AR) of the undisputed facts].

7. The British police dogs “Eddie” and “Keela” detected human blood and cadaver in a vehicle rented by the claimants after the disappearance of MMC [alínea AS) of the undisputed facts].
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6307.0 page 8


in order for us to understand exactly what this means we need to know what Alinea AS  and Alinea AR means. Alianea means paragrah I beleive which means to me there is more to this stateemnt than what has been translated or released
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on June 22, 2021, 01:50:49 PM

in order for us to understand exactly what this means we need to know what Alinea AS  and Alinea AR means. Alianea means paragrah I beleive which means to me there is more to this stateemnt than what has been translated or released
I think it refers to another document of "Undisputed facts" that were presumably given a reference A-Z, then AA-AZ - have we ever seen this document?  Who decided these facts were undisputed anyway?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Carana on June 22, 2021, 02:28:54 PM
I think it refers to another document of "Undisputed facts" that were presumably given a reference A-Z, then AA-AZ - have we ever seen this document?  Who decided these facts were undisputed anyway?

Celestial teapot.

Or whatever the equivalent expression in Portuguese.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on June 22, 2021, 03:04:36 PM
Celestial teapot.

Or whatever the equivalent expression in Portuguese.
Why?  Which bit?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Carana on June 23, 2021, 10:22:35 AM
Why?  Which bit?

My understanding is that some of the so-called "proven facts" were true (Madeleine's DOB, etc.). A few others were disputed (from memory, some of the alleged revenue streams), but other points weren't allowed to be disputed (e.g., what the dogs actually reacted to), as disputing the veracity of what was in the files would have been the remit of a criminal trial, not the civil case for damages.

If my understanding is correct, if there had been "expert" testimony /a report in the files up until Amaral got booted to the effect that the parents had established a cloning factory on Jupiter, then that assertion, could - in theory -  have made the "proven fact" list for the purposes of the civil court case (based on the files established until Amaral was removed).

It couldn't have been disputed and was therefore officially undisputed... but that doesn't make the assertion true, only that it was recorded in the files up until his departure and was therefore not a total invention by Amaral.

The fact that Eddie would also alert to the scent of blood from a living human being appears to have only been established post-Amaral.

IMO, the dogs aren't the only issue.


Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on June 23, 2021, 10:35:44 AM
My understanding is that some of the so-called "proven facts" were true (Madeleine's DOB, etc.). A few others were disputed (from memory, some of the alleged revenue streams), but other points weren't allowed to be disputed (e.g., what the dogs actually reacted to), as disputing the veracity of what was in the files would have been the remit of a criminal trial, not the civil case for damages.

If my understanding is correct, if there had been "expert" testimony /a report in the files up until Amaral got booted to the effect that the parents had established a cloning factory on Jupiter, then that assertion, could - in theory -  have made the "proven fact" list for the purposes of the civil court case (based on the files established until Amaral was removed).

It couldn't have been disputed and was therefore officially undisputed... but that doesn't make the assertion true, only that it was recorded in the files up until his departure and was therefore not a total invention by Amaral.

The fact that Eddie would also alert to the scent of blood from a living human being appears to have only been established post-Amaral.

IMO, the dogs aren't the only issue.

Thanks Carana that makes perfect sense. It was also in the files that at a meeting with VGrime at Amarals office the PJ eere told the alerts haf no evident value and no inference could be drawn  from them without physical evidence.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Carana on June 23, 2021, 11:17:38 AM
Thanks Carana that makes perfect sense. It was also in the files that at a meeting with VGrime at Amarals office the PJ eere told the alerts haf no evident value and no inference could be drawn  from them without physical evidence.

The meeting apparently took place in Amaral's office, but I have never found it clear if Amaral was actually present or not.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on June 23, 2021, 11:24:13 AM
My understanding is that some of the so-called "proven facts" were true (Madeleine's DOB, etc.). A few others were disputed (from memory, some of the alleged revenue streams), but other points weren't allowed to be disputed (e.g., what the dogs actually reacted to), as disputing the veracity of what was in the files would have been the remit of a criminal trial, not the civil case for damages.

If my understanding is correct, if there had been "expert" testimony /a report in the files up until Amaral got booted to the effect that the parents had established a cloning factory on Jupiter, then that assertion, could - in theory -  have made the "proven fact" list for the purposes of the civil court case (based on the files established until Amaral was removed).

It couldn't have been disputed and was therefore officially undisputed... but that doesn't make the assertion true, only that it was recorded in the files up until his departure and was therefore not a total invention by Amaral.

The fact that Eddie would also alert to the scent of blood from a living human being appears to have only been established post-Amaral.

IMO, the dogs aren't the only issue.

May I ask how you reached your understanding of the meaning of the word facts in this context? I'm not denying you're correct, just wondering why the evidence supporting your view, which has been available for years, has never been quoted.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on June 23, 2021, 11:27:55 AM
The meeting apparently took place in Amaral's office, but I have never found it clear if Amaral was actually present or not.

Thats right it isnt clear... But the pj were informed so no excuse...
I think it should have been clear when amaral made the doc snd he did continue his discredit claims even after the files were released.
It also explains why the judge in the first instance silenced Gerry when he objected. Gunit has claimed that Duarte could have challenged it and didnt...... Which is obviously wrong
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on June 23, 2021, 11:30:48 AM
May I ask how you reached your understanding of the meaning of the word facts in this context? I'm not denying you're correct, just wondering why the evidence supporting your view, which has been available for years, has never been quoted.

Its obvious there had to be such an explanation ad the facts clearly are not proven... Its most likely thst posters just dont understand Portuguese law
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Carana on June 23, 2021, 11:41:18 AM
May I ask how you reached your understanding of the meaning of the word facts in this context? I'm not denying you're correct, just wondering why the evidence supporting your view, which has been available for years, has never been quoted.

Quoted by whom?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on June 23, 2021, 11:52:42 AM
Its obvious there had to be such an explanation ad the facts clearly are not proven... Its most likely thst posters just dont understand Portuguese law

It's more likely imo that posters don't bother doing research. Judge Maria Emília de Melo e Castro said in 2015 that there was only one fact established in this case;

If “facts ascertained in the investigation" refers to those which, with rigour and according to the procedural-penal dogma, are the result of the investigation that was achieved, then only one deserves this qualification – the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.
https://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/v02.htm page 10

Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on June 23, 2021, 11:53:43 AM
Quoted by whom?

By anyone, as far as I know.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on June 23, 2021, 12:07:02 PM
It's more likely imo that posters don't bother doing research. Judge Maria Emília de Melo e Castro said in 2015 that there was only one fact established in this case;

If “facts ascertained in the investigation" refers to those which, with rigour and according to the procedural-penal dogma, are the result of the investigation that was achieved, then only one deserves this qualification – the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.
https://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/v02.htm page 10

You claimed yesterday that the facts were established by the judge and there was a meeting where  objections could be raised. You even esrlier as I recall blamed Duarte for not objecting to them. You also claimed that as far as the Portuguese court was concerned the alert to cafaver eas a fact. You have contradicted yourself numerous times.
To suggest that posters dont research things is laughable... As are your recent posts... And becoming more laughable by the day... All my opinion
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on June 23, 2021, 12:12:22 PM
You claimed yesterday that the facts were established by the judge and there was a meeting where  objections could be raised. You even esrlier as I recall blamed Duarte for not objecting to them. You also claimed that as far as the Portuguese court was concerned the alert to cafaver eas a fact. You have contradicted yourself numerous times.
To suggest that posters dont research things is laughable... As are your recent posts... And becoming more laughable by the day... All my opinion

Like you, I can say anything I like. If you disagree feel free to do your research and prove me wrong. I've no intention of doing it for you.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on June 23, 2021, 12:16:51 PM
Like you, I can say anything I like. If you disagree feel free to do your research and prove me wrong. I've no intention of doing it for you.

Ive no interest in proving you wrong.. Your opinions are not important to me. Knowing you are wrong on so many points is enough
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on June 23, 2021, 12:46:15 PM
Like you, I can say anything I like. If you disagree feel free to do your research and prove me wrong. I've no intention of doing it for you.
Only the other day you were telling Davel what he couldn't say - make up your mind!
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on June 23, 2021, 08:10:00 PM
Only the other day you were telling Davel what he couldn't say - make up your mind!

We can both say what we like BUT if Davel publicly names someone as a thief he is opening himself to being sued. I was reminding him that there are limitations on our freedom of speech. Did you miss that bit?

Wolters, of course, as a public official, has greater limitations on his freedom of speech.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on June 23, 2021, 08:16:36 PM
We can both say what we like BUT if Davel publicly names someone as a thief he is opening himself to being sued. I was reminding him that there are limitations on our freedom of speech. Did you miss that bit?

Wolters, of course, as a public official, has greater limitations on his freedom of speech.

Do you not understand... I would welcome being sued... Someone who is guilty is not going to want to go to court.
Im pointing out again... Its possible to have absolute proof of someones guilt but not enough evidence to charge
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on June 23, 2021, 08:43:09 PM
We can both say what we like BUT if Davel publicly names someone as a thief he is opening himself to being sued. I was reminding him that there are limitations on our freedom of speech. Did you miss that bit?

Wolters, of course, as a public official, has greater limitations on his freedom of speech.
No I didn’t miss that bit, as if you recall I reminded you that the same rule of law should apply to any private citizen, including disgraced ex-cops. 
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on June 23, 2021, 10:42:27 PM
Do you not understand... I would welcome being sued... Someone who is guilty is not going to want to go to court.
Im pointing out again... Its possible to have absolute proof of someones guilt but not enough evidence to charge

If someone hasn't been found guilty by the courts there are legal measures available to be used against anyone who publicly pronounces them guilty. Those are the facts and your protestations don't change them.

Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on June 23, 2021, 10:52:52 PM
If someone hasn't been found guilty by the courts there are legal measures available to be used against anyone who publicly pronounces them guilty. Those are the facts and your protestations don't change them.
unless your accuser is Portuguese of course.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on June 23, 2021, 11:16:30 PM
unless your accuser is Portuguese of course.

You are entitled to those same legal protections in Portugal.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on June 23, 2021, 11:33:37 PM
You are entitled to those same legal protections in Portugal.
lol
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on June 24, 2021, 08:27:42 AM
lol

You may scoff, but it is a fact that legal protections are available in Portugal. Those who lose their cases (and their supporters) may not like the outcome but that doesn't mean the outcome was wrong.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on June 24, 2021, 08:37:58 AM
You may scoff, but it is a fact that legal protections are available in Portugal. Those who lose their cases (and their supporters) may not like the outcome but that doesn't mean the outcome was wrong.
And it doesn't mesn its right The SC have a very poor record at the ECHR.... Its a shame Cipriano didnt take her case there
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on June 24, 2021, 09:46:35 AM
And it doesn't mesn its right The SC have a very poor record at the ECHR.... Its a shame Cipriano didnt take her case there

It depends what you mean by 'poor'. In 2020 the ECHR found Portugal guilty of 5 violations, France guilty of 10, Belgium 9, Greece 18, Germany 4, and Italy 14.
https://www.echr.coe.int/Documents/Stats_violation_2020_ENG.pdf

It looks like one of the better European countries to me, along with Germany. Both could improve when compared with Ireland, Denmark & Finland (1), & UK (2), but they're closer to the best than to other European countries.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on June 24, 2021, 10:15:21 AM
You may scoff, but it is a fact that legal protections are available in Portugal. Those who lose their cases (and their supporters) may not like the outcome but that doesn't mean the outcome was wrong.
Perhaps you would like to explain how the Portuguese legal system protected the McCanns from public (unproven) allegations of criminal conduct by a private individual, the very thing that you claim is not permissable under law?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on June 24, 2021, 10:44:51 AM
It depends what you mean by 'poor'. In 2020 the ECHR found Portugal guilty of 5 violations, France guilty of 10, Belgium 9, Greece 18, Germany 4, and Italy 14.
https://www.echr.coe.int/Documents/Stats_violation_2020_ENG.pdf

It looks like one of the better European countries to me, along with Germany. Both could improve when compared with Ireland, Denmark & Finland (1), & UK (2), but they're closer to the best than to other European countries.
Those stats are meaningless without looking at population stats by  country as well - try human rights violations per capita. 
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on June 24, 2021, 10:46:10 AM
It depends what you mean by 'poor'. In 2020 the ECHR found Portugal guilty of 5 violations, France guilty of 10, Belgium 9, Greece 18, Germany 4, and Italy 14.
https://www.echr.coe.int/Documents/Stats_violation_2020_ENG.pdf

It looks like one of the better European countries to me, along with Germany. Both could improve when compared with Ireland, Denmark & Finland (1), & UK (2), but they're closer to the best than to other European countries.

Have you forgotten the link you posted a couple of years ago which showed over 90 % of cases going to judgement going against Portugal. They were noticably worse than all other western European countries
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on June 24, 2021, 10:49:07 AM
It depends what you mean by 'poor'. In 2020 the ECHR found Portugal guilty of 5 violations, France guilty of 10, Belgium 9, Greece 18, Germany 4, and Italy 14.
https://www.echr.coe.int/Documents/Stats_violation_2020_ENG.pdf

It looks like one of the better European countries to me, along with Germany. Both could improve when compared with Ireland, Denmark & Finland (1), & UK (2), but they're closer to the best than to other European countries.

I see you are now qoting one year... 2020...do you have the link provided previously for the past 20 years... That would be more representative

Ive just looked... Portugal had 5 judgements and lost all of them... Not right once
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on June 24, 2021, 11:18:05 AM
Perhaps you would like to explain how the Portuguese legal system protected the McCanns from public (unproven) allegations of criminal conduct by a private individual, the very thing that you claim is not permissable under law?

Amaral's thesis was that the McCanns hid Madeleine's body and simulated an abduction. In other words, he repeated and still agreed with the thesis of the PJ investigation up to September 2007. Although the investigation continued after September 2007, no evidence was found to disprove Amaral's thesis or to support the McCann's thesis.


Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on June 24, 2021, 11:24:51 AM
Amaral's thesis was that the McCanns hid Madeleine's body and simulated an abduction. In other words, he repeated and still agreed with the thesis of the PJ investigation up to September 2007. Although the investigation continued after September 2007, no evidence was found to disprove Amaral's thesis or to support the McCann's thesis.

The BKK thesis is that the evidenve shows CB murdered MM.
It has not been disproved. CB has had chance to prove his innocence.. He hasnt
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on June 24, 2021, 11:35:35 AM
Have you forgotten the link you posted a couple of years ago which showed over 90 % of cases going to judgement going against Portugal. They were noticably worse than all other western European countries

No they weren't. Portugal was found to have 275 violations, but Italy had 1,857, Greece 935, France 759 and Austria 279. Please don't post your opinions as if they are facts.
https://echr.coe.int/Documents/Overview_19592020_ENG.pdf

Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on June 24, 2021, 11:45:39 AM
The BKK thesis is that the evidenve shows CB murdered MM.
It has not been disproved. CB has had chance to prove his innocence.. He hasnt

I don't know what the BKA thesis is. I do know that prosecutor Wolters has (imo) stated his belief that CB is guilty, which is a breach of the suspect's human rights by a public official imo.

Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on June 24, 2021, 12:40:19 PM
I don't know what the BKA thesis is. I do know that prosecutor Wolters has (imo) stated his belief that CB is guilty, which is a breach of the suspect's human rights by a public official imo.

The Greeks have done the same..he has the same options to object and seek redress as the McCanns anb everyone else has. There are minor breaches of HR everyday tjst have no consequences... I dont think Wolters statements will have any either
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Brietta on June 24, 2021, 12:55:39 PM
I think sometimes it is informative to know exactly where the main uninformed influencers of the uninformed opinions of many are to be found hanging out on the internet and exactly how intolerant they actually are of the freedom of speech which they purport to champion.
Value the ethos of our forum please ~ because there are those abroad who will do all they possibly can to dismiss us with a wave of the hand and a dismissive "Away with you!"
                               _____________________________________________________________

Frankly I don't understand how the case ever reached a law court.  D .... LIBEL REDACTED ... en. V
hi V,
I’ve researched the facts behind the case and from what I can see the Mccanns have a very strong case. It Is basically a balance between item 10 and 8. That’s the right to free speech against the right to reputation. Posters might not like it but looking at previous cases the Mccanns will be successful. We then have the right to the presumption of innocence which the SC stated does not apply in a civil court. From past rulings by the ECHR it does. L
Meanwhile I continue to believe it to be an elaborate hoax - just like every other aspect of this protracted saga. V
It’s the right to free speech vs right to reputation...Article 10 vs 8.  It is against the state of Portugal because it is the state of Portugal via the Supreme Court that has allowed Amaral to libel them L
Is that a fact.  V
Do you understand what libel means?  L
Do you? PA
Yep....do you know how poor the record is of the Portuguese SC is at the ECHR? ... it’s pretty poor   L
Did you actually come to this site last year to fight "misinformation"?  BB
I came to give my point of view.   Is that a problem?  L

Before I ban you, just answer one more question: how did GA libel the McCanns? JH

If you can’t stand another person’s point of view and wish to ban me ... I’m not bothered ... go ahead.   What happened to the claim of not supporting censorship?
You either support free speech or you don’t ... if you ban me you don’t.   L

Answer the question.  JH

If you have decided to censor me ... it’s unfair to ask me to answer a question.   So...am I to be banned or not?  L

Answer the question. JH

I don't give in to threats. I'm quite happy to answer any question but not if you have already made the decision to ban me.  L

75 posts on various threads of your nonsense and drivel is more than enough.
Away with you.  JH
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on June 24, 2021, 01:33:22 PM
No they weren't. Portugal was found to have 275 violations, but Italy had 1,857, Greece 935, France 759 and Austria 279. Please don't post your opinions as if they are facts.
https://echr.coe.int/Documents/Overview_19592020_ENG.pdf

Portugal had 359 judgements and only 19 had no violations. Thats sround  95 %  failure rate.. Thats poor compared to other countries... No opinion... Fact

You should understand france and italy have about 6 timrs the pop of Portugal... Germany 8.

Then Greece and Italy are on the front line for illegal immigrsnts.

All fact.. No opinion.. LOL
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on June 24, 2021, 01:33:38 PM
Amaral's thesis was that the McCanns hid Madeleine's body and simulated an abduction. In other words, he repeated and still agreed with the thesis of the PJ investigation up to September 2007. Although the investigation continued after September 2007, no evidence was found to disprove Amaral's thesis or to support the McCann's thesis.
And once again I ask you to explain how the Portuguese legal system protected the McCanns from public (unproven) allegations of criminal conduct by a private individual, the very thing that you claim is not permissable under law?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on June 24, 2021, 02:16:27 PM
And once again I ask you to explain how the Portuguese legal system protected the McCanns from public (unproven) allegations of criminal conduct by a private individual, the very thing that you claim is not permissable under law?

The Portuguese legal system gave the McCanns the opportunity to sue, and they took it. They failed to convince the Portuguese courts, however. Not everyone sues successfully you know!
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on June 24, 2021, 02:26:40 PM
Portugal had 359 judgements and only 19 had no violations. Thats sround  95 %  failure rate.. Thats poor compared to other countries... No opinion... Fact

You should understand france and italy have about 6 timrs the pop of Portugal... Germany 8.

Then Greece and Italy are on the front line for illegal immigrsnts.

All fact.. No opinion.. LOL

Ah, caveats are being introduced now I see to try to justify your claim.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on June 24, 2021, 02:27:24 PM
The Portuguese legal system gave the McCanns the opportunity to sue, and they took it. They failed to convince the Portuguese courts, however. Not everyone sues successfully you know!

This part interests me




We consider that, in this case, in view of the verified matter of facts, the exercise of freedom of expression was contained within limits which must be considered admissible in a (post-) modern democratic society



Did the SC actually incorrectly believe Amaral's book was based on facts
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on June 24, 2021, 02:29:41 PM
Ah, caveats are being introduced now I see to try to justify your claim.

I claimed portugal had a poor record.. My post shows thats fact not opinion.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on June 24, 2021, 02:37:57 PM
I think sometimes it is informative to know exactly where the main uninformed influencers of the uninformed opinions of many are to be found hanging out on the internet and exactly how intolerant they actually are of the freedom of speech which they purport to champion.
Value the ethos of our forum please ~ because there are those abroad who will do all they possibly can to dismiss us with a wave of the hand and a dismissive "Away with you!"
                               _____________________________________________________________

Frankly I don't understand how the case ever reached a law court.  D .... LIBEL REDACTED ... en. V
hi V,
I’ve researched the facts behind the case and from what I can see the Mccanns have a very strong case. It Is basically a balance between item 10 and 8. That’s the right to free speech against the right to reputation. Posters might not like it but looking at previous cases the Mccanns will be successful. We then have the right to the presumption of innocence which the SC stated does not apply in a civil court. From past rulings by the ECHR it does. L
Meanwhile I continue to believe it to be an elaborate hoax - just like every other aspect of this protracted saga. V
It’s the right to free speech vs right to reputation...Article 10 vs 8.  It is against the state of Portugal because it is the state of Portugal via the Supreme Court that has allowed Amaral to libel them L
Is that a fact.  V
Do you understand what libel means?  L
Do you? PA
Yep....do you know how poor the record is of the Portuguese SC is at the ECHR? ... it’s pretty poor   L
Did you actually come to this site last year to fight "misinformation"?  BB
I came to give my point of view.   Is that a problem?  L

Before I ban you, just answer one more question: how did GA libel the McCanns? JH

If you can’t stand another person’s point of view and wish to ban me ... I’m not bothered ... go ahead.   What happened to the claim of not supporting censorship?
You either support free speech or you don’t ... if you ban me you don’t.   L

Answer the question.  JH

If you have decided to censor me ... it’s unfair to ask me to answer a question.   So...am I to be banned or not?  L

Answer the question. JH

I don't give in to threats. I'm quite happy to answer any question but not if you have already made the decision to ban me.  L

75 posts on various threads of your nonsense and drivel is more than enough.
Away with you.  JH


As you know forums are entitled to dismiss posters for any reason they wish, including this one. Who's this 'L' then? I assume it's someone you know by your use of the word 'us'?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on June 24, 2021, 02:42:55 PM
As you know forums are entitled to dismiss posters for any reason they wish, including this one. Who's this 'L' then? I assume it's someone you know by your use of the word 'us'?

Forum s can dismiss who they want but banning posters because they think the mccanns are innocent really does make the forum pathetic.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Brietta on June 24, 2021, 02:50:44 PM
As you know forums are entitled to dismiss posters for any reason they wish, including this one. Who's this 'L' then? I assume it's someone you know by your use of the word 'us'?

Forums are not democratic entities ... but the particular forum I have quoted from allegedly champions free speech.

Apparently that is applicable only if one chants the libels which are agreeable to the forum owner?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on June 24, 2021, 02:51:10 PM
This part interests me




We consider that, in this case, in view of the verified matter of facts, the exercise of freedom of expression was contained within limits which must be considered admissible in a (post-) modern democratic society



Did the SC actually incorrectly believe Amaral's book was based on facts

No
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on June 24, 2021, 02:52:45 PM
The Portuguese legal system gave the McCanns the opportunity to sue, and they took it. They failed to convince the Portuguese courts, however. Not everyone sues successfully you know!
Then the Portuguese system clearly failed to protect them from unproven public accusations of criminal behaviour by a private individual as I said.  How you can dispute this is quite frankly beyond me.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on June 24, 2021, 02:57:14 PM
No

Is that a fact or your opinion.. It would also explain their comment
. Insufficient evidence wheras PD Carmo said no evidence
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Brietta on June 24, 2021, 02:59:29 PM
Then the Portuguese system clearly failed to protect them from unproven public accusations of criminal behaviour by a private individual as I said.  How you can dispute this is frankly quite beyond me.

It comes from the same stable which pinned its colours to the mast that the ECHR would dismiss the McCann case out of hand and are still struggling with coming to grip with the fact that the ECHR will hear the case against Portugal and Amaral.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on June 24, 2021, 03:09:46 PM
No

I take it you dont know this as a fact
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on June 24, 2021, 06:06:16 PM
Then the Portuguese system clearly failed to protect them from unproven public accusations of criminal behaviour by a private individual as I said.  How you can dispute this is quite frankly beyond me.

Only in the opinion of those who think that repeating what was in the released files was unlawful.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on June 24, 2021, 06:17:30 PM
Only in the opinion of those who think that repeating what was in the released files was unlawful.
Look.  Were the allegations made against the McCanns  in a book and on TV  proven or not? 
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on June 24, 2021, 06:26:40 PM
Only in the opinion of those who think that repeating what was in the released files was unlawful.
Furthermore, if the McCanns had face trial in Portugal following the publication of Amaral’s book and media campaign do you think they would have received a fair trial?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on June 24, 2021, 06:32:44 PM
Forum s can dismiss who they want but banning posters because they think the mccanns are innocent really does make the forum pathetic.

A different reason was quoted; "75 posts on various threads of your nonsense and drivel is more than enough."
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on June 24, 2021, 06:41:30 PM
A different reason was quoted; "75 posts on various threads of your nonsense and drivel is more than enough."
lol  Is this what constitutes nonsense and drivel on that forum?

“I’ve researched the facts behind the case and from what I can see the Mccanns have a very strong case. It Is basically a balance between item 10 and 8. That’s the right to free speech against the right to reputation. Posters might not like it but looking at previous cases the Mccanns will be successful. We then have the right to the presumption of innocence which the SC stated does not apply in a civil court. From past rulings by the ECHR it does. L”
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on June 24, 2021, 06:44:29 PM
Is it Bennett’s forum?  I presume so.  It’s the most sinister, gestapo-like forum I’ve ever been a (short-lived) member of. 
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Brietta on June 24, 2021, 07:37:40 PM
A different reason was quoted; "75 posts on various threads of your nonsense and drivel is more than enough."

Away with you ~ it is as plain as the nose on a face that the seven posts quoted - not one of which contained a single offensive word or a single inaccuracy - were the tipping point for this poster to be banished for posting "nonsense" and "drivel".

The poster had an opinion on the McCann case at the ECHR which just was not going to be allowed.  A perfect example of the hypocrisy displayed by a forum which claims itself to be the champion of free speech 😁
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on June 24, 2021, 07:46:16 PM
Look.  Were the allegations made against the McCanns  in a book and on TV  proven or not?

Does an opinion need to be proven?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on June 24, 2021, 07:58:30 PM
Away with you ~ it is as plain as the nose on a face that the seven posts quoted - not one of which contained a single offensive word or a single inaccuracy - were the tipping point for this poster to be banished for posting "nonsense" and "drivel".

The poster had an opinion on the McCann case at the ECHR which just was not going to be allowed.  A perfect example of the hypocrisy displayed by a forum which claims itself to be the champion of free speech 😁

On some forums opinions are expected to be justified by an explanation.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Eleanor on June 24, 2021, 08:01:51 PM
Is it Bennett’s forum?  I presume so.  It’s the most sinister, gestapo-like forum I’ve ever been a (short-lived) member of.

Me to also.  Although I never actually said anything.  I was just known to be a McCann Supporter.  And so I had to go.

Personally, I wouldn't label them Gestapo.  They really aren't clever enough although they might be vicious enough if only they knew how.

Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on June 24, 2021, 08:38:24 PM
Does an opinion need to be proven?
Sorry, did you write this?

“If you can't prove it in court you can't publicly announce that someone is guilty without risking being sued”.
and this?

“You must surely realise that you can't publicly name this person and state that they are a thief?”
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on June 24, 2021, 08:40:28 PM
On some forums opinions are expected to be justified by an explanation.
You are defending the indefensible and you know it.  Just be honest for once, can you please?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on June 24, 2021, 08:43:48 PM
Me to also.  Although I never actually said anything.  I was just known to be a McCann Supporter.  And so I had to go.

Personally, I wouldn't label them Gestapo.  They really aren't clever enough although they might be vicious enough if only they knew how.


By Gestapo-like I meant fascist, metaphorical jackboots stamping down on anyone out of line, endless hate-filled propaganda, issuing threats and toying with members before giving them the drop, a cult-like rulership  Yuck.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on June 24, 2021, 08:48:04 PM
Furthermore, if the McCanns had face trial in Portugal following the publication of Amaral’s book and media campaign do you think they would have received a fair trial?
G-Unit, you missed this question.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on June 24, 2021, 08:53:46 PM
A different reason was quoted; "75 posts on various threads of your nonsense and drivel is more than enough."

it seems if you think the McCanns are innocent...thats considered drivel

if you think covid is not  a plandemic by world leaders...thats drivel

Of course you can put your head in the sand and beleive CMOMM accepts all opinions b ut everyone knows that is not true.

There is plenty of drivel on the site....the dogs that have never been wrong in 200 outings just one current example...but its all being posted by raving loonies
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on June 24, 2021, 08:59:43 PM
On some forums opinions are expected to be justified by an explanation.

on the site that you support it says..

Two top UK Dogs who alerted to blood and cadaver odour in McCanns’ apartment and hire car had never been wrong in 200 previous outings.

i presume you understand that isnt true...and its stated as a fact..lol
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on June 24, 2021, 09:06:05 PM
Me to also.  Although I never actually said anything.  I was just known to be a McCann Supporter.  And so I had to go.

Personally, I wouldn't label them Gestapo.  They really aren't clever enough although they might be vicious enough if only they knew how.

I now suspect that G Unit is taking orders and directions from CMoMM, which is a bit of a disappointment to me because I did believe that G Unit was really okay.  But this is her problem and not mine.

G Unit frequently contradicts herself but then castigates others of us who are entitled to our own opinions, which are  often much better founded.

I am now nearly bored witless which is why I mostly stay away these days.  But No, I haven't given up.  I am just waiting.

If you continue to air your ridiculous opinions about me I will retaliate. My patience is running out.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on June 24, 2021, 09:09:35 PM
If you continue to air your ridiculous opinions about me I will retaliate. My patience is running out.

the opinions are not ridiculous...imo...far from it....you are stating your opinion as fact again
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Brietta on June 24, 2021, 09:13:28 PM
Me to also.  Although I never actually said anything.  I was just known to be a McCann Supporter.  And so I had to go.

Personally, I wouldn't label them Gestapo.  They really aren't clever enough although they might be vicious enough if only they knew how.

I now suspect that G Unit is taking orders and directions from CMoMM, which is a bit of a disappointment to me because I did believe that G Unit was really okay.  But this is her problem and not mine.

G Unit frequently contradicts herself but then castigates others of us who are entitled to our own opinions, which are  often much better founded.

I am now nearly bored witless which is why I mostly stay away these days.  But No, I haven't given up.  I am just waiting.

I think as far as the ECHR is concerned there shouldn't be all that much longer to wait.  But the fact that there isn't much visibly happening doesn't mean we need to 'dumb down' and play to a sceptic agenda.

Did we really need to pay more obeisance to Anubis when it is perfectly obvious that that unless the GNR dogs had followed the right trail right from the beginning - dogs were nothing but a distracting irrelevance.  All designed I am sure to "bore people witless" so that the terms can be dictated and dissenting opinion censored by the self appointed guardians of free speech - and we've seen them in operation.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Brietta on June 24, 2021, 09:16:53 PM
Is it Bennett’s forum?  I presume so.  It’s the most sinister, gestapo-like forum I’ve ever been a (short-lived) member of.

I don't think you are anyone until you've been booted off of there.  If memory serves me well I believe even Shining was red carded on one occasion.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Eleanor on June 24, 2021, 09:18:19 PM
By Gestapo-like I meant fascist, metaphorical jackboots stamping down on anyone out of line, endless hate-filled propaganda, issuing threats and toying with members before giving them the drop, a cult-like rulership  Yuck.

I do know what you meant.  But this Forum isn't like that, yet.  And won't be while I still feel able to kick in, albeit only occasionally.

I think that you and Davel are very stoical although I am not sure if stoical is a 'Very' sort of thing.

I am pleased that you are no longer being frightfully rude, mainly because it really won't do.  However, I don't know if I am being rude and don't really care anyway.

Who gets to behave this badly?  Do you have to be a Moderator?  About which there is nothing I can do?

Well, I probably could, but it wouldn't be cricket.  And so I do nothing.

But I do know what is going on.  And believe me, it is all such a waste of their time.

This Forum will fight to the bitter end for the rights of The McCanns and Innocent Until Proven Guilty for as long as I choose to uphold The Law.

Back next week if I feel like it.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Eleanor on June 24, 2021, 09:24:56 PM
If you continue to air your ridiculous opinions about me I will retaliate. My patience is running out.

Really?  Go for it.  I mean do me a favour.  Do you seriously think you can threaten me when I never lie or twist anything?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on June 24, 2021, 09:33:49 PM
the opinions are not ridiculous...imo...far from it....you are stating your opinion as fact again

I take orders from no-one, and it's ridiculous to suggest that I do.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Brietta on June 24, 2021, 09:38:58 PM
Really?  Go for it.  I mean do me a favour.  Do you seriously think you can threaten me when I never lie or twist anything?

Honesty is something that this forum has in spades and whatever the news good bad or indifferent, integrity in the majority of the posts made.

We have some very good posters here who have worked exceedingly hard to make the unintelligible meaningful for us less gifted ~ for example 'alleles' and the mysteries of the European Court.

Now all we need is a German expert ... any takers?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on June 24, 2021, 09:50:02 PM
I take orders from no-one, and it's ridiculous to suggest that I do.

in your opinion...
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Eleanor on June 24, 2021, 09:52:24 PM
Honesty is something that this forum has in spades and whatever the news good bad or indifferent, integrity in the majority of the posts made.

We have some very good posters here who have worked exceedingly hard to make the unintelligible meaningful for us less gifted ~ for example 'alleles' and the mysteries of the European Court.

Now all we need is a German expert ... any takers?

I don't understand why you quoted my post about G Unit threatening me.

I am not less gifted and understand exactly what is going on.

No one threatens me without putting their money where their mouth is.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Brietta on June 24, 2021, 10:12:11 PM
I don't understand why you quoted my post about G Unit threatening me.

I am not less gifted and understand exactly what is going on.

No one threatens me without putting their money where their mouth is.

Carana made DNA intelligible for me and intellectually Misty and Davel leave me standing.  You are an inspiration for me too and I know you are one of the sharpest tools in the box as well as being incredibly kind.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Eleanor on June 24, 2021, 11:27:16 PM
Carana made DNA intelligible for me and intellectually Misty and Davel leave me standing.  You are an inspiration for me too and I know you are one of the sharpest tools in the box as well as being incredibly kind.

What can I say?  None of this is rocket science.  You just need half a brain.  But I think you are bull shitting me because you are trying to be kind to me.  And probably trying to take my anger away from this discussion.  I am angry.

Kind is the only thing that I Understand.  But don't ever push me too far.

I don't have to understand DNA or even Intellectuality.  These things are just facts.

Davel, God help him, is always right.  And Misty always comes up with the goods, although she is not alone.

Me?  Fourteen years of something that cannot possibly mean anything to me beyond the loss of my own child.  And believe me I did think of that.  And then decided not to do this.

I actually can't help The McCanns beyond believing that they did not harm their daughter.  But guess what?  Bloody well prove to me that they did.  And no one has yet done that.

The rest of it is Shite.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Brietta on June 25, 2021, 12:20:54 AM
What can I say?  None of this is rocket science.  You just need half a brain.  But I think you are bull shitting me because you are trying to be kind to me.  And probably trying to take my anger away from this discussion.  I am angry.

Kind is the only thing that I Understand.  But don't ever push me too far.

I don't have to understand DNA or even Intellectuality.  These things are just facts.

Davel, God help him, is always right.  And Misty always comes up with the goods, although she is not alone.

Me?  Fourteen years of something that cannot possibly mean anything to me beyond the loss of my own child.  And believe me I did think of that.  And then decided not to do this.

I actually can't help The McCanns beyond believing that they did not harm their daughter.  But guess what?  Bloody well prove to me that they did.  And no one has yet done that.

The rest of it is Shite.
Every positive wish will be welcomed by the McCanns or any other family of a missing child even if they never hear of it or read it.

At the moment a young man has gone missing from my locality.  He is nineteen and the police have been pulling out all the stops so they are really worried - even drafting in officers from outside to mount searches.  We all gave permission to have gardens and outbuildings searched.  His parents have used social media, had banners printed, put up posters and given out leaflets.  I have only heard people wishing the best for him and expressing the sincerest sympathy for his parents and I think that is the normal reaction for people to have at a time like this.

All we have to go on is knowing how awful we would feel if it was happening to us and react accordingly.  I think the reaction sceptics are enjoying when they troll and torture the family of a missing child is the aberrant one and I feel incredibly sad for them; much as I think writing the book Amaral wrote was entirely wrong and the Supreme Court's condoning of it was also entirely wrong.

We have gone through every nit picking ritual from the libel trial that supposedly wasn't to the appeal to the ECHR which we were told would never happen for a variety of reasons.  Yet here we are.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Eleanor on June 25, 2021, 12:39:21 AM
Every positive wish will be welcomed by the McCanns or any other family of a missing child even if they never hear of it or read it.

At the moment a young man has gone missing from my locality.  He is nineteen and the police have been pulling out all the stops so they are really worried - even drafting in officers from outside to mount searches.  We all gave permission to have gardens and outbuildings searched.  His parents have used social media, had banners printed, put up posters and given out leaflets.  I have only heard people wishing the best for him and expressing the sincerest sympathy for his parents and I think that is the normal reaction for people to have at a time like this.

All we have to go on is knowing how awful we would feel if it was happening to us and react accordingly.  I think the reaction sceptics are enjoying when they troll and torture the family of a missing child is the aberrant one and I feel incredibly sad for them; much as I think writing the book Amaral wrote was entirely wrong and the Supreme Court's condoning of it was also entirely wrong.

We have gone through every nit picking ritual from the libel trial that supposedly wasn't to the appeal to the ECHR which we were told would never happen for a variety of reasons.  Yet here we are.

Okay.  Fine.  Just keep G Unit away from me.  It had got to the point when I couldn't even comment without her right behind me.

And now she is threatening me.  You sought it because I have had enough.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Carana on June 25, 2021, 08:07:50 AM
Furthermore, if the McCanns had face trial in Portugal following the publication of Amaral’s book and media campaign do you think they would have received a fair trial?

IMO, probably not if they'd been Portuguese, if the pre-trial pro-PJ media onslaught on the Ciprianos is anything to go by.

Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Carana on June 25, 2021, 08:57:10 AM
Catching up.

Hey, relax Max (es)!

As a discussion forum, people obviously defend their views... Sometimes those discussions can get heated and some may find that they are being attacked personally, which is never a nice feeling.

It's not just about this case - I noticed it when I was trying to follow the facts about several others cases: hundreds of pages of irrelevant spats to wade through, which really don't help anyone to form a view of what may have actually happened.







Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on June 25, 2021, 09:03:23 AM
Furthermore, if the McCanns had face trial in Portugal following the publication of Amaral’s book and media campaign do you think they would have received a fair trial?

I don't think the McCanns made much effort with the Portuguese media for some reason. All their efforts seemed to be focused on the UK media.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Carana on June 25, 2021, 09:19:43 AM
I don't think the McCanns made much effort with the Portuguese media for some reason. All their efforts seemed to be focused on the UK media.

I find that partly true, but a) they didn't speak the language; b) the pro-PJ media was hostile; c) any objective media rarely, erm, got translated (and Google translate was in its infancy back then), d) loads of objective articles from the PT press at the time are no longer available online.

Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on June 25, 2021, 09:22:38 AM
Catching up.

Hey, relax Max (es)!

As a discussion forum, people obviously defend their views... Sometimes those discussions can get heated and some may find that they are being attacked personally, which is never a nice feeling.

It's not just about this case - I noticed it when I was trying to follow the facts about several others cases: hundreds of pages of irrelevant spats to wade through, which really don't help anyone to form a view of what may have actually happened.

A very sensible post.  8((()*/
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on June 25, 2021, 09:25:54 AM
I don't think the McCanns made much effort with the Portuguese media for some reason. All their efforts seemed to be focused on the UK media.
I think you have totally evaded the question.  Do you really think it is up to the accused to try and win the foreign media over to their side?

How about you try again?

if the McCanns had face trial in Portugal following the publication of Amaral’s book and media campaign do you think they would have received a fair trial?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on June 25, 2021, 09:46:44 AM
I find that partly true, but a) they didn't speak the language; b) the pro-PJ media was hostile; c) any objective media rarely, erm, got translated (and Google translate was in its infancy back then), d) loads of objective articles from the PT press at the time are no longer available online.

I really don't know where I saw it, but I seem to remember a Portuguese journalist saying the McCanns refused to speak to them. I know they didn't speak the language, but they managed to communicate with the media in other countries as I recall. What seemed to happen was that the Portuguese and UK media cherry-picked and repeated each other's stories. Perhaps the Portuguese media became pro-PJ due to the anti-PJ attitude of the McCanns and the UK media? 

I found this article from 2007 interesting;

https://pressgazette.co.uk/madeleine-mccann-coverage-did-we-get-it-right/

It certainly offers an understanding of why Amaral felt the need to defend his 'honour' and offer his opinions on the case.

Paul Johnson, deputy editor, The Guardian

"The British press as a body was sticking the boot into the Portuguese judicial system – that we probably don’t understand too well – and also sticking the boot in about the police methods of inquiry."
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on June 25, 2021, 09:57:28 AM
I really don't know where I saw it, but I seem to remember a Portuguese journalist saying the McCanns refused to speak to them. I know they didn't speak the language, but they managed to communicate with the media in other countries as I recall. What seemed to happen was that the Portuguese and UK media cherry-picked and repeated each other's stories. Perhaps the Portuguese media became pro-PJ due to the anti-PJ attitude of the McCanns and the UK media? 

I found this article from 2007 interesting;

https://pressgazette.co.uk/madeleine-mccann-coverage-did-we-get-it-right/

It certainly offers an understanding of why Amaral felt the need to defend his 'honour' and offer his opinions on the case.

Paul Johnson, deputy editor, The Guardian

"The British press as a body was sticking the boot into the Portuguese judicial system – that we probably don’t understand too well – and also sticking the boot in about the police methods of inquiry."
And how do you think the Anti-McCann coverage (espcially that led by Amaral publicising his bestselling book and theory) would have affected the McCanns' right to a fair trial had one eventuated in Portugal?
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on June 25, 2021, 10:21:37 AM
I think you have totally evaded the question.  Do you really think it is up to the accused to try and win the foreign media over to their side?

How about you try again?

if the McCanns had face trial in Portugal following the publication of Amaral’s book and media campaign do you think they would have received a fair trial?

Why court any press?

Yvonne Radley, news editor, Gcap’s Leicester Sound

When somebody courts the press like the McCanns did in the initial stages, you can’t expect that to stop if the situation changes like it did when they became arguidos.
https://pressgazette.co.uk/madeleine-mccann-coverage-did-we-get-it-right/

Jeremy Paxman;

you collaborated with them when it was convenient to you, didn't you? And you would announce photocalls and whether or not you'd be speaking that day - or maybe tomorrow or the day after. D'you .... d'you think to some degree you .... you reaped a whirlwind?
https://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/03/gerry-mccann-talks-to-jeremy-paxman.html

One of the things the Portuguese Supreme court judges commented on was how the McCanns voluntarily sacrificed their own privacy and thus reduced their entitlement to the protection of Article 8 of the ECHR.

Amaral's effect upon the possibility of a fair trial was dealt with by the Portuguese courts. It was established that he was not constrained by the rules of his former occupation, which is how the judge of the first instance found against him.

The McCanns haven't bothered applying to the ECHR about the role of the Portuguese media coverage in damaging their right to a fair trial. As I don't know much about that coverage, I can't comment on what effect it may have had.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on June 25, 2021, 10:25:10 AM
I really don't know where I saw it, but I seem to remember a Portuguese journalist saying the McCanns refused to speak to them. I know they didn't speak the language, but they managed to communicate with the media in other countries as I recall. What seemed to happen was that the Portuguese and UK media cherry-picked and repeated each other's stories. Perhaps the Portuguese media became pro-PJ due to the anti-PJ attitude of the McCanns and the UK media? 

I found this article from 2007 interesting;

https://pressgazette.co.uk/madeleine-mccann-coverage-did-we-get-it-right/

It certainly offers an understanding of why Amaral felt the need to defend his 'honour' and offer his opinions on the case.

Paul Johnson, deputy editor, The Guardian

"The British press as a body was sticking the boot into the Portuguese judicial system – that we probably don’t understand too well – and also sticking the boot in about the police methods of inquiry."

To anyone who understands Amaral's book does not fefend his honour but confirms the McCanns were right to criticise the PJ. The book and the documentary confirm amaral did not understand the evidence. How couldd he possibly solve the case if he cant understand the basics
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on June 25, 2021, 10:52:53 AM
To anyone who understands Amaral's book does not fefend his honour but confirms the McCanns were right to criticise the PJ. The book and the documentary confirm amaral did not understand the evidence. How couldd he possibly solve the case if he cant understand the basics

I don't know if your opinions are relevant to the ECHR deliberations or not. I do know that the SC judges reached a different conclusion;

Of all those circumstances does not result, in our view, that underlying the book, the documentary and the interview, exists an defamatory intention against the appellants, i.e an animus injuriandi, but rather an animus informandi and an animus defendendi.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7937.15 page 67
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on June 25, 2021, 11:21:13 AM
I don't know if your opinions are relevant to the ECHR deliberations or not. I do know that the SC judges reached a different conclusion;

Of all those circumstances does not result, in our view, that underlying the book, the documentary and the interview, exists an defamatory intention against the appellants, i.e an animus injuriandi, but rather an animus informandi and an animus defendendi.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7937.15 page 67

I do know that the facts I have stated are relevant because the ECHR will be concerned with the veracity of the claims.. Something Ive provided cites for several times

As regards the SCs OPINION... in cases that result in a judgement they are wrong 95% of the time.. Again cite provided previously
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on June 25, 2021, 11:29:59 AM
Why court any press?

Yvonne Radley, news editor, Gcap’s Leicester Sound

When somebody courts the press like the McCanns did in the initial stages, you can’t expect that to stop if the situation changes like it did when they became arguidos.
https://pressgazette.co.uk/madeleine-mccann-coverage-did-we-get-it-right/

Jeremy Paxman;

you collaborated with them when it was convenient to you, didn't you? And you would announce photocalls and whether or not you'd be speaking that day - or maybe tomorrow or the day after. D'you .... d'you think to some degree you .... you reaped a whirlwind?
https://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/03/gerry-mccann-talks-to-jeremy-paxman.html

One of the things the Portuguese Supreme court judges commented on was how the McCanns voluntarily sacrificed their own privacy and thus reduced their entitlement to the protection of Article 8 of the ECHR.

Amaral's effect upon the possibility of a fair trial was dealt with by the Portuguese courts. It was established that he was not constrained by the rules of his former occupation, which is how the judge of the first instance found against him.

The McCanns haven't bothered applying to the ECHR about the role of the Portuguese media coverage in damaging their right to a fair trial. As I don't know much about that coverage, I can't comment on what effect it may have had.
lol, what a very disingenuous response, as expected.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: G-Unit on June 25, 2021, 11:38:58 AM
I do know that the facts I have stated are relevant because the ECHR will be concerned with the veracity of the claims.. Something Ive provided cites for several times

As regards the SCs OPINION... in cases that result in a judgement they are wrong 95% of the time.. Again cite provided previously

I can't comment as I don't keep a list of cites you have provided. Even if I did, I have no way of knowing which ones relate to what.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: jassi on June 25, 2021, 11:43:11 AM
I do know that the facts I have stated are relevant because the ECHR will be concerned with the veracity of the claims.. Something Ive provided cites for several times

As regards the SCs OPINION... in cases that result in a judgement they are wrong 95% of the time.. Again cite provided previously

Of course, if say, only 1 in 100 SC rulings  get as far as to a ECHR ruling , then the SC are correct most of the time
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on June 25, 2021, 11:44:59 AM
Of course, if say, only 1 in 100 SC rulings  go to the ECHR, then the SC are correct most of the time
Something would have to be very seriously wrong with a country's legal system if they were wrong most of the time.
Title: Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
Post by: Davel on June 25, 2021, 01:32:38 PM
Of course, if say, only 1 in 100 SC rulings  get as far as to a ECHR ruling , then the SC are correct most of the time
They are wrong 95 % of the time when cases are admissible and are judged.... And thats the stage the McCanns are at or very close to