Author Topic: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.  (Read 8247 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Carana

Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
« Reply #540 on: June 25, 2021, 08:57:10 AM »
Catching up.

Hey, relax Max (es)!

As a discussion forum, people obviously defend their views... Sometimes those discussions can get heated and some may find that they are being attacked personally, which is never a nice feeling.

It's not just about this case - I noticed it when I was trying to follow the facts about several others cases: hundreds of pages of irrelevant spats to wade through, which really don't help anyone to form a view of what may have actually happened.








Offline G-Unit

Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
« Reply #541 on: June 25, 2021, 09:03:23 AM »
Furthermore, if the McCanns had face trial in Portugal following the publication of Amaral’s book and media campaign do you think they would have received a fair trial?

I don't think the McCanns made much effort with the Portuguese media for some reason. All their efforts seemed to be focused on the UK media.
England - good effort

Offline Carana

Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
« Reply #542 on: June 25, 2021, 09:19:43 AM »
I don't think the McCanns made much effort with the Portuguese media for some reason. All their efforts seemed to be focused on the UK media.

I find that partly true, but a) they didn't speak the language; b) the pro-PJ media was hostile; c) any objective media rarely, erm, got translated (and Google translate was in its infancy back then), d) loads of objective articles from the PT press at the time are no longer available online.


Offline G-Unit

Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
« Reply #543 on: June 25, 2021, 09:22:38 AM »
Catching up.

Hey, relax Max (es)!

As a discussion forum, people obviously defend their views... Sometimes those discussions can get heated and some may find that they are being attacked personally, which is never a nice feeling.

It's not just about this case - I noticed it when I was trying to follow the facts about several others cases: hundreds of pages of irrelevant spats to wade through, which really don't help anyone to form a view of what may have actually happened.

A very sensible post.  8((()*/
England - good effort

Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
« Reply #544 on: June 25, 2021, 09:25:54 AM »
I don't think the McCanns made much effort with the Portuguese media for some reason. All their efforts seemed to be focused on the UK media.
I think you have totally evaded the question.  Do you really think it is up to the accused to try and win the foreign media over to their side?

How about you try again?

if the McCanns had face trial in Portugal following the publication of Amaral’s book and media campaign do you think they would have received a fair trial?
« Last Edit: June 25, 2021, 09:28:21 AM by Vertigo Swirl »
ANGER MAKES US AWARE OF INJUSTICE
We often experience anger when we are denied rights or when faced with insults, disrespect, injustice, or exploitation. Anger serves as an internal guidance system that indicates something is not quite right, that someone has treated us unjustly or unfairly. Anger helps communicate to others: “You’d better treat me fairly; otherwise, you’ll pay a high cost.” On a global level, standing up for a lack of fairness can prevent people from taking advantage of others. This type of anger can bring about positive change in society and increase the social cost of misbehaving.
The value of anger https://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/value-of-anger-16-reasons-its-good-to-get-angry-0313175

Offline G-Unit

Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
« Reply #545 on: June 25, 2021, 09:46:44 AM »
I find that partly true, but a) they didn't speak the language; b) the pro-PJ media was hostile; c) any objective media rarely, erm, got translated (and Google translate was in its infancy back then), d) loads of objective articles from the PT press at the time are no longer available online.

I really don't know where I saw it, but I seem to remember a Portuguese journalist saying the McCanns refused to speak to them. I know they didn't speak the language, but they managed to communicate with the media in other countries as I recall. What seemed to happen was that the Portuguese and UK media cherry-picked and repeated each other's stories. Perhaps the Portuguese media became pro-PJ due to the anti-PJ attitude of the McCanns and the UK media? 

I found this article from 2007 interesting;

https://pressgazette.co.uk/madeleine-mccann-coverage-did-we-get-it-right/

It certainly offers an understanding of why Amaral felt the need to defend his 'honour' and offer his opinions on the case.

Paul Johnson, deputy editor, The Guardian

"The British press as a body was sticking the boot into the Portuguese judicial system – that we probably don’t understand too well – and also sticking the boot in about the police methods of inquiry."
England - good effort

Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
« Reply #546 on: June 25, 2021, 09:57:28 AM »
I really don't know where I saw it, but I seem to remember a Portuguese journalist saying the McCanns refused to speak to them. I know they didn't speak the language, but they managed to communicate with the media in other countries as I recall. What seemed to happen was that the Portuguese and UK media cherry-picked and repeated each other's stories. Perhaps the Portuguese media became pro-PJ due to the anti-PJ attitude of the McCanns and the UK media? 

I found this article from 2007 interesting;

https://pressgazette.co.uk/madeleine-mccann-coverage-did-we-get-it-right/

It certainly offers an understanding of why Amaral felt the need to defend his 'honour' and offer his opinions on the case.

Paul Johnson, deputy editor, The Guardian

"The British press as a body was sticking the boot into the Portuguese judicial system – that we probably don’t understand too well – and also sticking the boot in about the police methods of inquiry."
And how do you think the Anti-McCann coverage (espcially that led by Amaral publicising his bestselling book and theory) would have affected the McCanns' right to a fair trial had one eventuated in Portugal?
ANGER MAKES US AWARE OF INJUSTICE
We often experience anger when we are denied rights or when faced with insults, disrespect, injustice, or exploitation. Anger serves as an internal guidance system that indicates something is not quite right, that someone has treated us unjustly or unfairly. Anger helps communicate to others: “You’d better treat me fairly; otherwise, you’ll pay a high cost.” On a global level, standing up for a lack of fairness can prevent people from taking advantage of others. This type of anger can bring about positive change in society and increase the social cost of misbehaving.
The value of anger https://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/value-of-anger-16-reasons-its-good-to-get-angry-0313175

Offline G-Unit

Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
« Reply #547 on: June 25, 2021, 10:21:37 AM »
I think you have totally evaded the question.  Do you really think it is up to the accused to try and win the foreign media over to their side?

How about you try again?

if the McCanns had face trial in Portugal following the publication of Amaral’s book and media campaign do you think they would have received a fair trial?

Why court any press?

Yvonne Radley, news editor, Gcap’s Leicester Sound

When somebody courts the press like the McCanns did in the initial stages, you can’t expect that to stop if the situation changes like it did when they became arguidos.
https://pressgazette.co.uk/madeleine-mccann-coverage-did-we-get-it-right/

Jeremy Paxman;

you collaborated with them when it was convenient to you, didn't you? And you would announce photocalls and whether or not you'd be speaking that day - or maybe tomorrow or the day after. D'you .... d'you think to some degree you .... you reaped a whirlwind?
https://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/03/gerry-mccann-talks-to-jeremy-paxman.html

One of the things the Portuguese Supreme court judges commented on was how the McCanns voluntarily sacrificed their own privacy and thus reduced their entitlement to the protection of Article 8 of the ECHR.

Amaral's effect upon the possibility of a fair trial was dealt with by the Portuguese courts. It was established that he was not constrained by the rules of his former occupation, which is how the judge of the first instance found against him.

The McCanns haven't bothered applying to the ECHR about the role of the Portuguese media coverage in damaging their right to a fair trial. As I don't know much about that coverage, I can't comment on what effect it may have had.
England - good effort

Offline Davel

Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
« Reply #548 on: June 25, 2021, 10:25:10 AM »
I really don't know where I saw it, but I seem to remember a Portuguese journalist saying the McCanns refused to speak to them. I know they didn't speak the language, but they managed to communicate with the media in other countries as I recall. What seemed to happen was that the Portuguese and UK media cherry-picked and repeated each other's stories. Perhaps the Portuguese media became pro-PJ due to the anti-PJ attitude of the McCanns and the UK media? 

I found this article from 2007 interesting;

https://pressgazette.co.uk/madeleine-mccann-coverage-did-we-get-it-right/

It certainly offers an understanding of why Amaral felt the need to defend his 'honour' and offer his opinions on the case.

Paul Johnson, deputy editor, The Guardian

"The British press as a body was sticking the boot into the Portuguese judicial system – that we probably don’t understand too well – and also sticking the boot in about the police methods of inquiry."

To anyone who understands Amaral's book does not fefend his honour but confirms the McCanns were right to criticise the PJ. The book and the documentary confirm amaral did not understand the evidence. How couldd he possibly solve the case if he cant understand the basics

Offline G-Unit

Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
« Reply #549 on: June 25, 2021, 10:52:53 AM »
To anyone who understands Amaral's book does not fefend his honour but confirms the McCanns were right to criticise the PJ. The book and the documentary confirm amaral did not understand the evidence. How couldd he possibly solve the case if he cant understand the basics

I don't know if your opinions are relevant to the ECHR deliberations or not. I do know that the SC judges reached a different conclusion;

Of all those circumstances does not result, in our view, that underlying the book, the documentary and the interview, exists an defamatory intention against the appellants, i.e an animus injuriandi, but rather an animus informandi and an animus defendendi.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7937.15 page 67
England - good effort

Offline Davel

Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
« Reply #550 on: June 25, 2021, 11:21:13 AM »
I don't know if your opinions are relevant to the ECHR deliberations or not. I do know that the SC judges reached a different conclusion;

Of all those circumstances does not result, in our view, that underlying the book, the documentary and the interview, exists an defamatory intention against the appellants, i.e an animus injuriandi, but rather an animus informandi and an animus defendendi.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7937.15 page 67

I do know that the facts I have stated are relevant because the ECHR will be concerned with the veracity of the claims.. Something Ive provided cites for several times

As regards the SCs OPINION... in cases that result in a judgement they are wrong 95% of the time.. Again cite provided previously
« Last Edit: June 25, 2021, 11:30:06 AM by Davel »

Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
« Reply #551 on: June 25, 2021, 11:29:59 AM »
Why court any press?

Yvonne Radley, news editor, Gcap’s Leicester Sound

When somebody courts the press like the McCanns did in the initial stages, you can’t expect that to stop if the situation changes like it did when they became arguidos.
https://pressgazette.co.uk/madeleine-mccann-coverage-did-we-get-it-right/

Jeremy Paxman;

you collaborated with them when it was convenient to you, didn't you? And you would announce photocalls and whether or not you'd be speaking that day - or maybe tomorrow or the day after. D'you .... d'you think to some degree you .... you reaped a whirlwind?
https://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/03/gerry-mccann-talks-to-jeremy-paxman.html

One of the things the Portuguese Supreme court judges commented on was how the McCanns voluntarily sacrificed their own privacy and thus reduced their entitlement to the protection of Article 8 of the ECHR.

Amaral's effect upon the possibility of a fair trial was dealt with by the Portuguese courts. It was established that he was not constrained by the rules of his former occupation, which is how the judge of the first instance found against him.

The McCanns haven't bothered applying to the ECHR about the role of the Portuguese media coverage in damaging their right to a fair trial. As I don't know much about that coverage, I can't comment on what effect it may have had.
lol, what a very disingenuous response, as expected.
ANGER MAKES US AWARE OF INJUSTICE
We often experience anger when we are denied rights or when faced with insults, disrespect, injustice, or exploitation. Anger serves as an internal guidance system that indicates something is not quite right, that someone has treated us unjustly or unfairly. Anger helps communicate to others: “You’d better treat me fairly; otherwise, you’ll pay a high cost.” On a global level, standing up for a lack of fairness can prevent people from taking advantage of others. This type of anger can bring about positive change in society and increase the social cost of misbehaving.
The value of anger https://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/value-of-anger-16-reasons-its-good-to-get-angry-0313175

Offline G-Unit

Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
« Reply #552 on: June 25, 2021, 11:38:58 AM »
I do know that the facts I have stated are relevant because the ECHR will be concerned with the veracity of the claims.. Something Ive provided cites for several times

As regards the SCs OPINION... in cases that result in a judgement they are wrong 95% of the time.. Again cite provided previously

I can't comment as I don't keep a list of cites you have provided. Even if I did, I have no way of knowing which ones relate to what.
England - good effort

Offline jassi

Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
« Reply #553 on: June 25, 2021, 11:43:11 AM »
I do know that the facts I have stated are relevant because the ECHR will be concerned with the veracity of the claims.. Something Ive provided cites for several times

As regards the SCs OPINION... in cases that result in a judgement they are wrong 95% of the time.. Again cite provided previously

Of course, if say, only 1 in 100 SC rulings  get as far as to a ECHR ruling , then the SC are correct most of the time
I believe everything. And l believe nothing.
I suspect everyone. And l suspect no one.
I gather the facts, examine the clues... and before   you know it, the case is solved!"

Or maybe not -

OG have been pushed out by the Germans who have reserved all the deck chairs for the foreseeable future

Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: ECHR urge McCanns to reach friendly settlement with Gonçalo Amaral.
« Reply #554 on: June 25, 2021, 11:44:59 AM »
Of course, if say, only 1 in 100 SC rulings  go to the ECHR, then the SC are correct most of the time
Something would have to be very seriously wrong with a country's legal system if they were wrong most of the time.
ANGER MAKES US AWARE OF INJUSTICE
We often experience anger when we are denied rights or when faced with insults, disrespect, injustice, or exploitation. Anger serves as an internal guidance system that indicates something is not quite right, that someone has treated us unjustly or unfairly. Anger helps communicate to others: “You’d better treat me fairly; otherwise, you’ll pay a high cost.” On a global level, standing up for a lack of fairness can prevent people from taking advantage of others. This type of anger can bring about positive change in society and increase the social cost of misbehaving.
The value of anger https://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/value-of-anger-16-reasons-its-good-to-get-angry-0313175