Author Topic: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail  (Read 162051 times)

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Offline Passer-by

Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
« Reply #300 on: August 18, 2015, 01:59:26 PM »
All of us read. Only one of us posts.


No. You are missing the whole darn point. Which is that Anni and Shrien were hoodwinked by Tongo. We know that the townships are a shithole but that is irrelevant. Tongo made them sound attractive and that was all it needed for Anni and Shrien to agree to his suggestions. She wasn't to know that the 3 minute Mzoli's driveby pre-dinner was as exciting as it was going to get. So far as she knew, Tongo was a good tour guide and was recommending that the townships were a good authentic experience for them to savour.

Would you like some speculative examples of possible reasons why Anni agreed to go back later?

Tongo said "If you think Mzolis looked like fun when we saw it earlier, then you will really enjoy some of the other shebeens"
Tongo said "its really fun. Its the real Africa. All my clients really like it when I show it to them"
Tongo said "the atmosphere is lovely jubbly. You will thank me for taking you there"
Tongo said "there is a circus of dancing African midgets who only come out at night. You will enjoy it"
Tongo said "Cape Town Disneyland is located only a few minutes from here. Shall I take the turnoff and show it to you?"

It was shut:  they'd already been there and seen there was nothing.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2015, 10:18:51 PM by John »

Offline Passer-by

Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
« Reply #301 on: August 18, 2015, 02:04:41 PM »
And I'd also like to point out that you don't know it was as you put it 'a shithole' because you've never been to one, however Anni could see what it was like from the highway.  The entire drive between the mountain to Strand you can see incredible poverty right beside you all along the road:  you can see it's what you call 'a shithole' the whole way.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2015, 10:19:17 PM by John »

Offline Passer-by

Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
« Reply #302 on: August 18, 2015, 02:09:29 PM »
Really - don't just take my word for it:  you can go on Google Streetview and 'drive' the journey along the N2 from Strand if you don't believe me.

Offline dewanifacts

Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
« Reply #303 on: August 18, 2015, 02:17:22 PM »
It was shut:  they'd already been there and seen there was nothing.

What is "it"? They saw one street (containing Mzolis) before dinner. The townships stretch out for many square kilometres. Why would the Dewanis think that they had seen the entire township precinct during a 3 minute drive by? After dinner it is entirely possible that Tongo told them that there was lots to still show them in the townships and its entirely possible that they believed him. 

Without any further information or a video recording of the conversation we can only speculate. This line of discussion can never prove anything. I really do not understand why you persist with it. 

Can we turn our attention to Carbon copy's post?  Do you have any theories on why the NPA has chosen not to prosecute Mbolombo? 
   

« Last Edit: August 18, 2015, 02:19:39 PM by dewanifacts »

Offline Passer-by

Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
« Reply #304 on: August 18, 2015, 02:33:03 PM »
As stated all over the place including this thread, it's about 45 min drive and it's 'shithole' Townships all the way.  They are all single story shacks the whole way:  you can see for miles, and miles and miles, especially at the beginning of the journey as the motorway rises up by the University and comes back down over the shoulder of the mountain and you can see the whole of Cape Flats laid out before you.

Coming from the UK I personally found it appalling - and I find poverty tourism like that appalling - and it took some time before I'm afraid inevitably I barely registered it - but the Dewanis I imagine will have been used to that kind of poverty having spent time in India.

Offline dewanifacts

Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
« Reply #305 on: August 18, 2015, 02:39:44 PM »
As always, you want to control the debate and narrow the choice of evidence down to fit your agenda.

Your natty little either/or option omits so much and should read more like:
_____________________________

What do you consider more improbable:  a tourist making the unusual decision to re-visit a dangerous township late at night which they already visited an hour earlier so knew the only attraction was shut (Dewani's version)

Or

a gay man who lied by omission when 'marrying' his heterosexual wife (and who was later found not only to have used a gay prostitute but also to have surfed gay bondage websites immediately after his bride's murder) who hired a publicist notorious for twisting the truth in the media, whose story changed about how he got out of a moving car without a scratch (and over whose idea it was to visit the Township anyhow the second time after they had already been there an hour earlier and seen the only attraction shut) who whilst alone with the Taxidriver a few hours earlier conducted a dodgy money transaction instead of using a nearby bank and who secretly texted that TaxiDriver whilst sitting next to his wife about leaving money in the Taxi.(Actual version)


OK - if you prefer, then answer your own either/or question. Which of your two options do you consider to be more improbable?
« Last Edit: September 03, 2015, 10:22:33 PM by John »

Offline mercury

Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
« Reply #306 on: August 18, 2015, 09:58:07 PM »
Hi Mercury,

Yes, I understand what you are saying. We would not defend a character like Dewani, unless we were convinced beyond any shadow of a doubt that he was innocent of all involvement in the crime. He is clearly a dislikeable, dishonourable person in many ways. But your conviction is only based in certain facts, some unknown facts and probably bent in the first place, seeing as you were not there

Allow me to inject a little perspective on the sentiment you have expressed. You are clearly a level headed clear thinking person and I understand that you personally do not "want" anyone to be falsely labeled guilty of a heinous crime. The problem in the Dewani case, is that many people did  (and do) want him to be guilty. NO, people do not want people to be guilty if they are not, they only want them to be guilty if they are

Remember that the backdrop to this murder was a wildly successful, peaceful world cup tournament in which Cape Town proved the doubters wrong. In this context, Anni's murder was a huge blow for the country and the handling of the case makes it readily apparent that.....NO way Jose, I do not believe any country hides murder for tourism, this argument has been touted in many cases, I don't buy it, eslecially as seeing South frica is a place of soooo many murders (didnt ever stop tourists going there)

- SAPS wanted a foreigner to be the perpetrator, rather than local thugs.
- The NPA wanted the same.
- South Africa's police commissioner at the time certainly wanted Dewani to be the culprit - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/southafrica/8191642/Honeymoon-murder-Shrien-Dewani-is-a-monkey-says-South-African-police-chief.html
- The media clearly wanted Shrien to be guilty (see True (44) as the "murdering gay husband" narrative sold lots of papers and commercials
- The SA public also wanted Shrien to be guilty, as it absolved their society of the blame for this young girl's murder. In addition, many South Africans feel exactly the same as Passer-by. They formed an opinion on this murder within a nanosecond of it hitting the news, confirmation bias has driven them ever since and they are wedded to that narrative. We will never convince someone like Passer-by that Dewani is innocent. We know that. People like her never want to admit that their intuition was misguided.
I read the media but only like a comic book, only use it as research...to suggest people decide in someones innocence or guilt according to the Sun or thr Mirror or even the broadsheets which cannot claim any higher moral ground but slightly better reportage is an insult to people in general

We (myself and my dewanifacts partners) struggle to understand this mindset as two of us were in the exact same boat. The difference with us was that we were open minded to admitting that our intuition had been wrong. It is open minded to say your intuition MIGHT be wrong not that it IS wrong
PS as Ive said before I enjoy Passer bys challenges, I dont believe you  should dismiss them, if you are still open minded

Answers in bold

Offline Carbon Copy

Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
« Reply #307 on: August 18, 2015, 11:15:53 PM »
Answers in bold

Mercury, I wouldn't dismiss the impact on tourism angle so quickly.  It's key to understanding why the pursuit of Dewani was so attractive to the Cape Town establishment.  Here's a link for consideration:-

http://www.capetown.travel/industry_blog/entry/the_impact_of_the_dewani_incident_on_local_tourism

Specific comments from the CEO of Cape Town Tourism.  It can't be underestimated.

Also, Passer-by style tales of Cape Town are interesting, especially to the layman, but I've heard it all before.  He/she reminds me very much of a contributor over on another thread who bedazzled many a poster with her local knowledge in a similarly persuasive manner.  She built up quite a following, with others placing a premium on her postings, but ultimately was only applying that knowledge to support her own preconceived ideas.  I see the same thing happening here.

Last thing, if it's an insult to people to say that they are swayed by the media reporting, can I ask you at which point you formed your opinion that Dewani was guilty?  And why? 
« Last Edit: August 18, 2015, 11:18:41 PM by Carbon Copy »

Offline mercury

Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
« Reply #308 on: August 19, 2015, 12:16:33 AM »
Mercury, I wouldn't dismiss the impact on tourism angle so quickly.  It's key to understanding why the pursuit of Dewani was so attractive to the Cape Town establishment.  Here's a link for consideration:-

http://www.capetown.travel/industry_blog/entry/the_impact_of_the_dewani_incident_on_local_tourism

Specific comments from the CEO of Cape Town Tourism.  It can't be underestimated.

Also, Passer-by style tales of Cape Town are interesting, especially to the layman, but I've heard it all before.  He/she reminds me very much of a contributor over on another thread who bedazzled many a poster with her local knowledge in a similarly persuasive manner.  She built up quite a following, with others placing a premium on her postings, but ultimately was only applying that knowledge to support her own preconceived ideas.  I see the same thing happening here.

Last thing, if it's an insult to people to say that they are swayed by the media reporting, can I ask you at which point you formed your opinion that Dewani was guilty?  And why?

By a combination of media reports And his actions statements tv and demeanors after the event

To me Passer Bys commets are genuine knowledgeable and  honest

No one has disproved any  of their contentions /arguments really

Can you give me one sole reason he didnt do it?
« Last Edit: August 19, 2015, 12:19:00 AM by mercury »

Offline Carbon Copy

Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
« Reply #309 on: August 19, 2015, 02:01:17 AM »
By a combination of media reports And his actions statements tv and demeanors after the event

To me Passer Bys commets are genuine knowledgeable and  honest

No one has disproved any  of their contentions /arguments really

Can you give me one sole reason he didnt do it?

Thanks for reply. As you've alluded to above, it's impossible not to have been influenced by the media, which included the way in which his behaviour and demeanour were reported.  I've spent weeks and months discussing all of those types of issues previously, which is why I have said I am reluctant to do it again.

There are those people that accept the judgement, and those that don't.  I'm in the former category.  The point I was trying to make is that if anyone had absorbed the trial coverage in isolation, knowing nothing of the case previously, then surely they could only reach one conclusion - that the judge was correct in dismissing the charges as it was obvious that the gang lied in order to obtain favourable treatment.  The judge all but said this in as many words.  The people that still insist that Dewani was guilty seem to be those that made up their mind prematurely, way before the trial.  That to me is unacceptable - the State case hadn't been tested.  When it was tested, it was found to be based on quicksand.  No truth in it whatsoever.  That really should be reason enough.

I've taken a while to reply as was looking for a link to post, which have now found.  It's a blog written 6 months or so before the trial. This person puts a whole different spin on the local knowledge that we have heard in this thread and pretty much has the case well and truly worked out long before most of us started reading about the details.  Many of the issues discussed in this thread are covered, together with many more and there is quite alarming accuracy in many of the conclusions which were echoed by the judge many months later.  If there is one resource that I would recommend to understand South Africa, and how the conditions were ripe for pursuing Dewani, then this is it. 

Admin; there is even a map included which you any any other readers may find useful for reference.

http://mbolombotongo.blogspot.co.uk/

Disclaimer: There appears to be one area in the blog where the author concludes that Dewani paid Tongo for the trip in advance and Tongo likely kept the money.  We know now that that didn't happen but please bear in mind as I stated above that this was written a good 6 months before the trial and so the author didn't have the benefit of the testimony provided in court.  The sentiment is important though, the R10,000 was Tongo's motive to be involved.  He likely wanted to keep it by getting it under his control and make it disappear during the hijack.

Also, I have nothing to do with this blog site and do not know who the author is.  I assume a Capetonian because of the level of detail included but who knows.  Thought I would share.

CC
« Last Edit: September 03, 2015, 10:27:52 PM by John »

Offline dewanifacts

Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
« Reply #310 on: August 19, 2015, 08:44:48 AM »
your conviction is only based in certain facts, some unknown facts and probably bent in the first place, seeing as you were not there

What a strange characterisation of our argument. We place stock in the findings of the one person who heard the evidence first hand. The judge. A well reputed senior judge whose ruling in this case has been backed by her peers globally.

Whilst the evidence wasn't enough to provide the Hindocha family with the answers they required about what really did happen to their Anni, it was more than sufficient to show what didn't happen.  That's why it was chucked out of court. You have asked for a sole reason why he didnt do it. Here's your answer. The hitman story simply does not tally up when you analyse the evidence. The evidence showed that there was never any agreement between Tongo and Dewani. Read my reply #295 on page 20 of this thread. I have posted the same points a few times for your benefit and you haven't acknowledged or attempted to address.

Passer-by's comments may be interesting to those who haven't heard them before but they really aren't particularly intelligent, groundbreaking or helpful in discerning the truth in this case. They are basically just tired re-rendering of the same old arguments that were thrashed by the British tabloid media and repeated on discussion forums and social media for four years.

On Passerby-s own admission, she has no actual evidence that Dewani was involved. Her entire argument is based on the unlikelihood of Dewani's story.

Dewanifacts has spent so long on here arguing with me - drawing out more and more information about the unlikelihood of Dewani's story

Her overly verbose wordy posts can be succinctly summarised as being geared toward showing:

- how unlikely it was that the Dewanis would be interested in doing a city sightseeing tour when there was so much to see and do right near their hotel
- how unlikely it was that the Dewanis would trust their taxi driver and allow him to drive them into a township twice in an evening
- how unlikely it was that Dewani would change money at the jewellery store
- how unlikely it was that Dewani would arrange a helicopter ride through the taxi driver and not the many handy tourism services near their hotel
- how unlikely it was that Dewani would be released unhurt and without a scratch on him
- how unlikely it was that Dewani did not realise that he had been hoodwinked by the taxi driver and still pitied him and paid him money he felt he owed

In light of Dewani's gay duplicitous double life, Passer-by contends that this story is too unlikely to be true.

Her contentions aren't necessarily outrageous or without reason. There are undoubtedly elements that seem highly unlikely. They simply do not constitute evidence and they are particularly problematic when you consider the unlikelihood of the alternative scenario and the indisputable fact that one of these two unlikely scenarios did in fact take place because otherwise Anni would still be alive.

Here's the alternative scenario and a few of the highly unlikely events contained within. If one believes the hitman story to be true, then one believes that each and every one of these highly unlikely occurences took place.

The judge didn't buy it. Do you?

Planning stage:

- a man decides to kill his wife of 2 weeks on honeymoon
- this man asks the first taxi driver he meets to organise this murder
- this taxi driver says he cannot help because he is not a criminal, but immediately says that he knows a man who can. Monde Mbolombo
- the taxi driver calls Mbolombo who also says that he is not a criminal and cannot help but conveniently knows a couple of people who can and he immediately calls them and arranges the murder
- these 4 men agree to commit this heinous crime for a 1/4 or 1/5 share of R15000 each, despite 2 of them being fully employed and their share of the proceeds being equivalent to a few days salary.
- the taxi driver is willing to risk his car which is his livelihood all for this paltry return

Operational stage:

- the taxi driver makes no effort to ensure that the money is in the glovebox as "agreed" before the first pass through Gugulethu
- the man does not even have the "agreed" R15000 on his person  so he is short changing the two unknown dangerous gunmen who will be carrying out his murder operation whilst he is in the taxi with them.

The aftermath stage:

- the man who is clearly aware of cctv cameras everywhere, borrows a policemans phone to invite the taxi driver back to a hotel to receive the balance of the murder payment
- 3 of the 4 conspirators at first admit that it was a robbery gone wrong and describe the man as an innocent victim, corroborating the story told by the man
- suddenly like dominoes, all 3 conspirators change their story to implicate the man - in exchange for generous lenient sentences.

The court process stage:

- Whilst telling this "truthful" story in court, the conspirators contradict each other on each and every material detail relating to the crime and are caught fabricating evidence to incriminate the man, despite their plea deals being contingent upon telling the truth.

« Last Edit: August 19, 2015, 12:52:30 PM by dewanifacts »

Offline dewanifacts

Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
« Reply #311 on: August 19, 2015, 10:47:44 AM »
By a combination of media reports And his actions statements tv and demeanors after the event

That's not a combination, mercury. Those are all things you saw or read in media reports by media organisations who were heavily invested in selling one version of events.

Would it surprise you to know that journalists who questioned the gay murdering husband narrative could not get their stories published in most publications?

Senior British newspaper editors are quoted as saying "we only want stuff that shows Shrien did it".
« Last Edit: August 19, 2015, 10:53:46 AM by dewanifacts »

Offline Passer-by

Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
« Reply #312 on: August 19, 2015, 12:52:29 PM »
What a strange characterisation of our argument. We place stock in the findings of the one person who heard the evidence first hand. The judge. A well reputed senior judge whose ruling in this case has been backed by her peers globally.

Whilst the evidence wasn't enough to provide the Hindocha family with the answers they required about what really did happen to their Anni, it was more than sufficient to show what didn't happen.  That's why it was chucked out of court. You have asked for a sole reason why he didnt do it. Here's your answer. The hitman story simply does not tally up when you analyse the evidence. The evidence showed that there was never any agreement between Tongo and Dewani. Read my reply #295 on page 20 of this thread. I have posted the same points a few times for your benefit and you haven't acknowledged or attempted to address.

Passer-by's comments may be interesting to those who haven't heard them before but they really aren't particularly intelligent, groundbreaking or helpful in discerning the truth in this case. They are basically just tired re-rendering of the same old arguments that were thrashed by the British tabloid media and repeated on discussion forums and social media for four years.

On Passerby-s own admission, she has no actual evidence that Dewani was involved. Her entire argument is based on the unlikelihood of Dewani's story.

Her overly verbose wordy posts can be succinctly summarised as being geared toward showing:

- how unlikely it was that the Dewanis would be interested in doing a city sightseeing tour when there was so much to see and do right near their hotel
- how unlikely it was that the Dewanis would trust their taxi driver and allow him to drive them into a township twice in an evening
- how unlikely it was that Dewani would change money at the jewellery store
- how unlikely it was that Dewani would arrange a helicopter ride through the taxi driver and not the many handy tourism services near their hotel
- how unlikely it was that Dewani would be released unhurt and without a scratch on him
- how unlikely it was that Dewani did not realise that he had been hoodwinked by the taxi driver and still pitied him and paid him money he felt he owed

In light of Dewani's gay duplicitous double life, Passer-by contends that this story is too unlikely to be true.

Her contentions aren't necessarily outrageous or without reason. There are undoubtedly elements that seem highly unlikely. They simply do not constitute evidence and they are particularly problematic when you consider the unlikelihood of the alternative scenario and the indisputable fact that one of these two unlikely scenarios did in fact take place because otherwise Anni would still be alive.

Here's the alternative scenario and a few of the highly unlikely events contained within. If one believes the hitman story to be true, then one believes that each and every one of these highly unlikely occurences took place.

The judge didn't buy it. Do you?

Planning stage:

- a man decides to kill his wife of 2 weeks on honeymoon
- this man asks the first taxi driver he meets to organise this murder
- this taxi driver says he cannot help because he is not a criminal, but says that he knows a man who can. Monde Mbolombo
- the taxi driver calls Mbolombo who also says that he is not a criminal and cannot help but conveniently knows a couple of people who can and he calls them and arranges the murder
- these 4 men agree to commit this heinous crime for a 1/4 or 1/5 share of R15000 each, despite 2 of them being fully employed and their share of the proceeds being equivalent to a few days salary.
- the taxi driver is willing to risk his car which is his livelihood all for this paltry return

Operational stage:

- the taxi driver makes no effort to ensure that the money is in the glovebox as "agreed" before the first pass through Gugulethu
- the man does not even have the "agreed" R15000 on his person  so he is short changing the two unknown dangerous gunmen who will be carrying out his murder operation whilst he is in the taxi with them.

The aftermath stage:

- the man who is clearly aware of cctv cameras everywhere, borrows a policemans phone to invite the taxi driver back to a hotel to receive the balance of the murder payment
- 3 of the 4 conspirators at first admit that it was a robbery gone wrong and describe the man as an innocent victim, corroborating the story told by the man
- suddenly like dominoes, all 3 conspirators change their story to implicate the man - in exchange for generous lenient sentences.

The court process stage:

- Whilst telling this "truthful" story in court, the conspirators contradict each other on each and every material detail relating to the crime and are caught fabricating evidence to incriminate the man, despite their plea deals being contingent upon telling the truth.

"Overly verbose" - excellent use of irony Dewanifacts:  have a House Merit!
 *&*%£

Offline dewanifacts

Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
« Reply #313 on: August 19, 2015, 01:01:49 PM »
Have you got any more anecdotes about how unlikely it is for tourists to trust a taxi driver to take them to a township?


Offline Passer-by

Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
« Reply #314 on: August 19, 2015, 01:13:34 PM »
Dewanifacts you simply can't get your heads around the fact that you are trying to win in the Court of The People.  The Court of The People overwhelmingly uses the circumstantial evidence you keep rejecting.  The burden of proof is indeed flipped:  you are indeed having to find facts to prove Dewani's innocence, which is an uphill struggle.  This is why a sensible man - an innocent sensible man - would have used an appearance in court to prove to the world his innocence beyond all doubt.  He would have been aghast and guilty that he hadn't managed to defend his wife and even - or especially - if innocent he would have prostrated himself before Anni's father and begged his forgiveness for not taking care of her.  If he was innocent he would be wracked with guilt, not riding rough-shod over her family and having a celebratory pizza-party.  Like his father-in-law, he would be going to Cape Town to find answers, get to know the dynamics of the people and their culture, offering a large reward for information, etc.

All he has ever done beyond an initial disasterous interview with the BBC is one controlled interview arranged by a lying, criminal publicist.

Let's see what happens if he has to give evidence at the UK inquest when it resumes.

In the meantime you are trying to use the rules of a court of law in the Court Of The People:  I'm afraid here it's very much 'balance of probabilty' not 'beyond all reasonable doubt' - and in Scotland I'm pretty sure in both courts he would have got a verdict of 'not proven'.

He can't be arsed to defend himself, he really doesn't deserve you doing so.