Author Topic: Vincent Tabak and the Murder of Joanna Yeates  (Read 204360 times)

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Offline [...]

Re: Vincent Tabak and the Murder of Joanna Yeates
« Reply #1200 on: February 20, 2017, 09:50:35 AM »
I always think I'm missing something... it has to be in plain sight... But I don't know what it is...

LCG Forensics hasn't always been squeaky clean when it comes to their testing methods and have been known to cross contaminate...

So I was looking at their site and found a write up on the Joanna Yeates case which gives me more questions...

Quote
The scientists used a combination of analytical tools including exacting DNA enhancement work and fibre analysis, and consideration was also given for recovery of hair, ecology and biological samples. 

CONSIDERATION..... So does that mean they didn't test these samples????

Another question is what HAIR samples did they have???

http://www.lgcgroup.com/about-us/media-room/latest-news/2011/lgc-forensics-provides-key-evidence-in-jo-yeates-i/#.WKq6OxLyjIE


Offline [...]

Re: Vincent Tabak and the Murder of Joanna Yeates
« Reply #1201 on: February 20, 2017, 10:24:29 AM »
Quote
The crucial evidence was provided by the work to refine the DNA procedures in order to enhance the
DNA samples – which were inhibited, possibly by the unusually high levels of salt at the location


I wonder what the odds are for being able to extract from one tiny sample a DNA profile??

With the salt inhibiter causing a problem and them not having loads of DNA samples from Joanna Yeates... It amazes me that the 3 supposed samples each yielded DNA from Dr Vincent Tabak.

The process they use is used the world over...

How did they manage such success with the minute samples and the contamination involved???

http://archive.lgcgroup.com/pdf_5c64ea97.aspx.pdf

Offline [...]

Re: Vincent Tabak and the Murder of Joanna Yeates
« Reply #1202 on: February 20, 2017, 10:44:32 AM »
Another massive question I have about this DNA sample that was supposed to be Dr Vincent Tabaks....

Did the DNA sample show that the sample came from someone of DUTCH ORIGIN?????

Quote
In a population that contains groups with characteristic allele frequencies, knowledge of one allele in a person's genotype might carry some information about the group to which the person belongs, and this in turn alters the statistical expectation for the other alleles in the genotype. For example, a person who has one allele that is common among Italians is more likely to be of Italian descent and is thus more likely to carry additional alleles that are common among Italians. The true genotype frequency is thus higher than would be predicted by applying the multiplication rule and using the average frequency in the entire population.


If as some have said that the result was 1 in a billion, then Lyndsey Lennen should have explained what genotype the sample was ...ie Dutch!!

This was never given in evidence that the sample showed that the perprtor was of Dutch Desent!!!! You think that would have bagged her the arguement!!!!!



https://www.dartmouth.edu/~chance/teaching_aids/books_articles/DNAtyping/node1.html

Offline [...]

Re: Vincent Tabak and the Murder of Joanna Yeates
« Reply #1203 on: February 20, 2017, 10:51:27 AM »


A Pdf on false positives in DNA testing: How the Probability of a False Positive Affects the Value of
DNA Evidence

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.329.4527&rep=rep1&type=pdf

Offline [...]

Re: Vincent Tabak and the Murder of Joanna Yeates
« Reply #1204 on: February 20, 2017, 09:50:12 PM »
I keep looking at the CCTV images, to see what she is wearing...

I have circled where what looks like her top, which goes straight across between either side of her green fleece, it dark cannot distinguish the colour... It's definitely not pink....

I'll add 2 pics one circled the other not...

Just made one colourless so you can see that it is a top.....

[attachment deleted by admin]

Offline [...]

Re: Vincent Tabak and the Murder of Joanna Yeates
« Reply #1205 on: February 21, 2017, 02:56:53 PM »

An interesting Article...  See all forensic labs are not squeaky clean.... Thinks it time something was done about these labs...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/02/20/murder-cases-may-among-convictions-reviewed-forensic-results/

Offline Leonora

Re: Vincent Tabak and the Murder of Joanna Yeates
« Reply #1206 on: February 22, 2017, 09:57:39 AM »
Police Magazine, February 2012, page 19:
"Initially, it was treated as a missing person’s case after her boyfriend Greg Reardon returned home from a weekend and reported her missing on December 22.
But as her disappearance was so out of character, the police were already concerned for her safety and several items, including the bedding from the couples’ first floor flat, were sent to a forensic laboratory for analysis, although nothing of significance was discovered."
- Tina Orr Munro

[attachment deleted by admin]

Offline John

Re: Vincent Tabak and the Murder of Joanna Yeates
« Reply #1207 on: February 22, 2017, 04:26:17 PM »

How do you know that, John?

BTW, I read that they are closing prisons in Holland-----because they don't have enough prisoners to fill them!!

He could be repatriated to Holland if he so requests it and has no outstanding appeal.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2017, 04:36:40 PM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline [...]

Re: Vincent Tabak and the Murder of Joanna Yeates
« Reply #1208 on: February 22, 2017, 05:49:33 PM »
I am going to try to make sense of this:


Quote
   This is what Tabak’s defence counsel said in his address to the court:


The two were facing each other. He put one arm around her back with his hand in the
middle of her back. And she screamed. He put his other hand over her mouth which
caused the noise of the scream to cease.He removed his hand from her mouth and the
screaming continued. He then put his hand around her throat. He believes it was the one
that had been from behind her back and held it there for about 20 seconds. He applied no
more than moderate force on a scale of one to three - light, moderate and severe. He did
not intend death or serious injury. The actions described above killed Miss Yeates. The
defendant accepts his actions were unlawful. He removed the hand from the mouth and the
screaming continued and then he put the hand around the throat. He believes it was the one
from around her back and held it there for about 20 seconds.' In a typed statement signed
by Vincent Tabak in September 2011, Tabak claimed that he didn't intend death or serious
injury.

For arguements sake the hand around her back I am going to say is his RIGHT Hand.....


Quote
He put one arm around her back with his hand in the
middle of her back. And she screamed
 

Right Hand

Quote
He put his other hand over her mouth which
caused the noise of the scream to cease.

Left hand

Quote
He removed his hand from her mouth and the
screaming continued.

Left Hand

Quote
He then put his hand around her throat. He believes it was the one
that had been from behind her back and held it there

Right Hand

Quote
The actions described above killed Miss Yeates. The
defendant accepts his actions were unlawful

Then he goes on to say: This is really confusing.....

Quote
He removed the hand from the mouth and the
screaming continued and then he put the hand around the throat. He believes it was the one
from around her back and held it there for about 20 seconds.'

Left hand put round her throat..   He believes it was the Right Hand

Quote
He removed the hand from the mouth and the
screaming continued and then he put the hand around the throat

Left Hand

Quote
He believes it was the one
from around her back and held it there for about 20 seconds.

Right Hand

Come on common sense is knocking on the door...  why say he believes it was the one from around her back.. when you have said it was the one from her mouth???? Dr Vincent Tabak needs his expert help here... But on his address to the Jury he says information that is already confusing..

That statement is not helpful in the slightest...


So the defence has got his hands in knots here.... which of his hands were supposed to be around her throat??? And whilst he had her in that position what was is other hand doing????

A simple opening statement and a hash as been made of it....  So he is literally saying that Dr Vincent Tabak used two hands.... In a round about way.. Or ???



Another thing I have a problem with is this:

Quote
It was Mr William Clegg who first asked the
Defendant to reconstruct the moments that he strangled Miss Yeates by closing his eyes
and reliving the event. It lasted some 20 seconds.

Now.... If everyone in the Jury is supposed to believe that this was a sexually motivated assault then, getting Dr Vincent Tabak to close his eyes and relive the moment, would only put in the jury's mind that he was reliving it for sexual reasons.... WHY would he direct him to that?????

http://www.criminal-lawyer.org.uk/39-CLN-JAN-2012.pdf




Offline [...]

Re: Vincent Tabak and the Murder of Joanna Yeates
« Reply #1209 on: February 22, 2017, 06:26:18 PM »
Police Magazine, February 2012, page 19:
"Initially, it was treated as a missing person’s case after her boyfriend Greg Reardon returned home from a weekend and reported her missing on December 22.
But as her disappearance was so out of character, the police were already concerned for her safety and several items, including the bedding from the couples’ first floor flat, were sent to a forensic laboratory for analysis, although nothing of significance was discovered."
- Tina Orr Munro


Interesting PDF Leonora 

Quote
Then, 25 days after the discovery
of Jo Yeates’ body, scientists made a
breakthrough. They found DNA
matching Vincent Tabak on one of
the samples recovered from her body

Firstly... it's only one of the samples..... question is: Which One????

25 days after finding her makes that the 19th January 2011 ...  Which we know is rubbish because... the CPS Lady said the Planned arrest of Dr Vincent Tabak..

DCI Phil Jones said: that it was the 20th January 2011

And Lyndsey Lennon said that they turned the DNA around in 48 hours....

None of them can keep a straight story!!!!!!



We are left with TWO samples that belonged to WHO?????  There is so much confusion .....  The DNA sounds compromised... It makes no sense ...And I remember in an earlier post I did they had a full profile they didn't test...

How can they seriously go to court knowing that there was more than one contributor... Why haven't the defence argued this point!!!!





Offline [...]

Re: Vincent Tabak and the Murder of Joanna Yeates
« Reply #1210 on: February 22, 2017, 07:02:22 PM »
Again referring to Leonora's pdf:....


Quote
On Boxing Day, Avon and Somerset
police requested a scene-going
scientist, Tania Nickson, from a
forensic company to attend the place
where Jo’s body had been dumped.

Boxing Day??????

Quote
While forensic scientists do not attend
crime scenes as a matter of course, in
this instance the police had very little
to go on.

How would they know they would have very little to go on... before they examined her?????????

Quote
“It was a difficult scene. It was
very cold and there was a lot of snow
on the ground,” says Lindsay Lennen,
who is a case leader for homicides.
“The first issue was whether or not
to disturb the snow.

So she was there when she was found....  Case Leader????? Thought it was Andrew Mott  and his unweildly broom handle!!!

Quote
There were
discussions on whether to remove
the snow which could interfere with any evidence or examine it in situ. In
the end, the snow was removed and
blood was recovered from the wall
behind the body.”

So they removed the snow and collected the blood.... Now good old Tania Nickson collected the blood from the wall...  And apparently she was there on "BOXING DAY"!!!!

This statement is off...  Sounds like they removed the snow and them collected the blood??? Which is Boxing Day!!

If her body was hiding the blood on the wall , how low down was this blood??/ or was she propped up against the wall???


Quote
An ecologist was also asked to attend
the scene. By examining the layering of
leaves over the body, it was hoped they
would be able to give some indication
as to how long the body had lain there

And what was the ecologist findings????

 Because they didn't use them in court to determine how long the body had been there... it also suggests that the snow must have been underneath her... because if it hadn't then they would have know she had been there since Friday 17th December 2010!!!

Lets not forget it snowed on the Saturday 18th December 2010... So Dr Vincent Tabak could not have done it!!!!

Back to Saturday again... which they always thought by the way they acted with CJ!!!

So if we go back to Boxing Day being the day she was removed... then this is why DCI Phil Jones says the 20th Jan 2011.. he's counting 25 days after...

But Dr Delaney apparently saw her on Christmas Day??? She was in the mortuary frozen solid.. so how did they thaw the body so quickly to determine the cause of death???

Surley it would take more than 1 day ... or the same day according to this lot who's story is everywhere!!!

Quote
Once the body had been removed tothe mortuary, swabs were taken in the
hope scientists could extract enough
of the all-important DNA to get a
profile of the suspect. Clothing was
also recovered and analysed. But
extracting the DNA from the swabs
was to prove a painstaking and
complicated process.

So they take the swabs in the mortuary???? Not being funny but i find that hard to believe that they were allowed in the mortuary when Dr Delaney was doing his post mortum...

Quote
Joanna Yeates
It started as a missing person inquiry on December 18, 2010, says Lindsey Lennen, a body fluids and DNA specialist (who, like many forensic scientists, says the work is "all I ever wanted to do"). The team started by examining items from Joanna's home, looking for foreign DNA. Then on Christmas Day, Yeates was found dead, on a country road.

A colleague went down to supervise the removal of her clothing and preserve any body fluids: "The body was frozen, so that was quite tricky." Under the media glare, the work was flat-out: clothing, swabs, suspect's clothing, all analysed and turned round in 48 hours.

"Eventually, we found something," Lennen says. "On swabs and tapes from her breasts, and tapes from three areas of her jeans. There were DNA components that matched one of the suspects, Vincent Tabak." But there wasn't enough, of enough quality, to evaluate ? perhaps because of the high salt levels where the body was found, following heavy snowfall.

So the team deployed an LGC technique known as DNA SenCE, which purifies, concentrates and enhances otherwise unusable DNA: "We couldn't say whether the DNA was from saliva, or semen, or even touch. But we could say that the probability of it not being a match with Tabak was less than one in a billion."

With the killer's confession, Lennen's DNA evidence was not further tested. "It happens, in court," she says. "You get called biased, in the police's pay. You have to tell the truth, not stretch what you have. If you don't know which of two alternatives is more likely, you must say so."


https://www.lccsa.org.uk/csi-oxford-behind-the-scenes-at-britains-top-forensic-lab/

Quote
Then, 25 days after the discovery
of Jo Yeates’ body, scientists made a
breakthrough. They found DNA
matching Vincent Tabak on one of
the samples recovered from her body

Now back to 48 hours... to 25 days....  they had Dr Vincent Tabak's full profile on the 31st December 2010, when he gave it in Holland...

Quote
The group comprised the most
appropriately experienced and
qualified forensic scientists, who
carried out the DNA examinations
as well as interpretation, peer review
and quality review.
“The focus group was quite specific
to this case and it worked very well as
it meant the different scientists could
come together and share their
findings.

What are her qualification actually??? the job descriptions for this company never ask for degree's or PHD's as far as I can tell with the jobs I have listed...

Can she call herself a Scientist???

Quote
Following Tabak’s conviction, DCI
Phil Jones, senior investigating officer,
said the DNA analysis was “crucial in
building a strong evidential case
against Vincent Tabak and ultimately
securing his conviction”.

Now how can the DNA be crucial when it wasn't a strong profile??? and other DNA was on her body... So what is he saying.. admitting guilt didn't do it????


EDIT:......
Quote
Dog walkers discovered her snow-covered body, laying in a foetal position against a wall, on Christmas Day.

http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/joanna-yeates-fought-killer/story-13538504-detail/story.html#DRAzfbpZ2tOOTk8Q.99quote]

So if she is laying against the wall is the blood behind her????  what angle???






Offline [...]

Re: Vincent Tabak and the Murder of Joanna Yeates
« Reply #1211 on: February 22, 2017, 07:20:42 PM »
Quote
The prosecution claims Tabak drove with her dead body in the boot of his Renault Megane car, photographs of which were released yesterday, before dumping her body.


The only photo's that were released where the ones of him on Park Street... And that was the 18th December 2010 when he went to pick Tanja up and got lost.... So he wasn't driving with Joanna Yeates in the boot of his car!!!

There is NO CCTV of Dr Vincent Tabak Driving with Joanna Yeates in the boot of his car!!!!

So did they tell the Jury an untrue????

http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/joanna-yeates-fought-killer/story-13538504-detail/story.html#vzuvXmTEMYGa7Y4I.99




Offline [...]

Re: Vincent Tabak and the Murder of Joanna Yeates
« Reply #1212 on: February 22, 2017, 07:26:04 PM »
Question is one in a billion a standard answer or is it an actual fact...

This from a different case... Don't know which lab it is:... (I could hazzard a guess)..

Quote
Forensic scientist Sally Stansbie told Exeter Crown Court the chance of blood on trainers and on a blood-stained newspaper placed in the bin in at Wain Lane not being that of Mr Munday was 'one in a billion' after forensic DNA profile matching had been carried.

http://www.torquayheraldexpress.co.uk/billion-chance-blood-murder-scene-vicitm-court/story-29356330-detail/story.html#EBPktbEMMHhw0GSa.99

What are the odds in DNA ?????  one in a billion is a standard answer as far as I can tell!!!!!


I remeber Joanna Yeates blood sample being one in a billion, that it was hers....

So it stops at one billion?????


EdIT:......

Quote
I'm reading Forensics: A Guide for Writers by D. P. Lyle. When the author talks about the probabilities of forensic testing results, he says:

'No two people have the same DNA, but the testifying expert will not say that the DNA “absolutely matches” that of the defendant. Instead he will say that the probability that it matches is a billion to one. That is almost, but not quite, absolute.'

So... defendant you could probably understand the one in a billion...

Quote
In the case of the DNA sample, a billion to one means that given the test results, there are very strong odds that the sample came from the defendant.

The likelihood of it coming from the defendant is 1000000000/1000000001.

So why did they say the same odds for Joanna Yeates blood???? Because it was supposed to be definatley hers?????

See what I mean about standard answers... They didn't need to give the odds on it being her BLOOD!!!!!

http://ell.stackexchange.com/questions/89880/meaning-of-a-billion-to-one-and-50-million-to-1



Offline [...]

Re: Vincent Tabak and the Murder of Joanna Yeates
« Reply #1213 on: February 22, 2017, 07:53:31 PM »
Understanding the maths....

https://plus.maths.org/content/os/issue55/features/dnacourt/index




Quote
Match probability      1/200m      1/20m     1/2m
Posterior prob of guilt    98%           85%         35%



The match probabilities that are routinely quoted now are in the order of 1 in a billion. At this level of accuracy they are much harder to overturn, but not impossible. The most convincing arguments would either be based on laboratory error, contamination, or deliberate fraud.

But even though the accuracy of DNA profiling has increased to produce these astronomical match probabilities, such as 1 in a billion, it is still important to recognise the process that you need to go through to assess this evidence.

Unfortunately there are still few jurors, lawyers and judges who understand the statistical subtleties of such evidence. However there are signs that things are improving in a very small way. There are a number of judges and lawyers who understand the issues and care about them and want to spread good practice. And a working party set up by the Royal Statistical Society is bringing statisticians and lawyers together to understand the issues.

What's problematic is not so much that people don't appreciate the problems, that is the case in many fields. The real difficulty is that people don't appreciate that they don't appreciate the problems — they don't even realise that there is a problem. It all looks so straightforward, instead of incredibly subtle. The correct computations needed to understand statistical evidence such as DNA profile matches are not mathematically difficult, it's simply arithmetic. But knowing what the correct computations are is something that is not many people understand.



So when we use these huge numbers... Is one in a billion... which has become the standard.. but how many people live on the planet????

The odds are misleading...  http://www.worldometers.info/world-population/ 

Nearly 7 and a half Billion...

So if Dr Vincent Tabak is 1 in 7  are they trying to tell me that 1 billion people are of Dutch Decent???

African Population.......... http://www.worldometers.info/world-population/africa-population/

1.2 .....Billion

Dr Vincent Tabak is now 1 in 6.3 billion

Chinese population :... http://www.worldometers.info/world-population/china-population/

1.38 billion

Dr Vincent Tabak is now 1 in  4.7 billion

Russian desent : http://www.worldometers.info/world-population/russia-population/

143,397.791 not even a billion......

American population:  325,644,133 again not a billion...


Now the Netherlands:.... http://www.worldometers.info/world-population/netherlands-population/

17,014,154  Now there isn't even a billion people in the Netherlands..

I am confused..... How can he be 1 in a billion... what where the markers that made Dr Vincent Tabak 1 in a billion when it was a partial DNA sample???????

Another thought here.... how many billion people are FEMALE??? cutting the odds again!!!

come on someone make sense of this for me please!!




Offline mrswah

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Re: Vincent Tabak and the Murder of Joanna Yeates
« Reply #1214 on: February 22, 2017, 09:58:54 PM »
He could be repatriated to Holland if he so requests it and has no outstanding appeal.


He is on the sex offenders' register, so I don't think he can.