Nearly 10 years on, are we any closer to the truth about Madeleine McCann?

[Robittybob1]

No it isn't.  Abduction requires the involvement of a third party and the evidence gathered so far precludes it.  Far more simple is the theory that Maddie got out on her own and got lost.  The problem with this though is that it puts the parents squarely back in the sights.

I am looking more along the lines "the theory is that Maddie got out on her own and got lost and then was abducted."
Has lots of problems though when you add in cadaver odour, possible drugged siblings, opened windows and raised shutters.  I don't think Madeleine can be blamed for those.

Or is it just blame avoidance?

Blame avoidance!  But if they were not to blame what are they avoiding.  I would like to know how that works.  Maybe we need start a thread discussing that aspect.

[Alfie]

it sounds simple but you have ignored all the complication of knowing why it was Madeleine that has been abducted in the first place.

Why is any child abducted?  Madeleine wasn't the first child to be taken from her home, and she won't be the last I don't suppose.  It's not a hugely complicated conundrum.

[stephen25000]

I am looking more along the lines "the theory is that Maddie got out on her own and got lost and then was abducted."
Has lots of problems though when you add in cadaver odour, possible drugged siblings, opened windows and raised shutters.  I don't think Madeleine can be blamed for those.
Blame avoidance!  But if they were not to blame what are they avoiding.  I would like to know how that works.  Maybe we need start a thread discussing that aspect.

They were responsible for leaving their children open to a variety of dangers.

[Alfie]

The contradictions in the witness statements.  If there was an outsider responsible there would be a lot more openness and clarity in the witness statements.  You might question whether this is actual evidence but I tend to think it is.
Like did Jez and Gerry see Jane?
What time did the Paynes arrive?
Did Kate ask for her twins to be drug tested?

Just for examples of recently discussed questions.

None of these things are evidence to rule out abduction.

[Robittybob1]

None of these things are evidence to rule out abduction.

But does your abduction start with the final abductor actually going into the kids bedroom and drugging the kids and taking Madeleine out of her bed etc.

Can you ever think that there are several events layered on top of each other?  I go for abduction but there is a separate reason why Madeleine is out of her bed.  So it is more complicated but I can include all of the weirdness, the cadaver odour, the possible drugged siblings, the opened windows and the raised shutters.
Gerry turning on the light to check that Madeleine was alright, is a major finding I believe, for at that point there was something happening more important than worrying about whether the kids would be woken by the suddenness of light switching on.

[stephen25000]

The bottom line.

She walked out, as Angelo favours, or she was removed.

I doubt anyone will ever know the truth, bar a confession.

[Alfie]

But does your abduction start with the final abductor actually going into the kids bedroom and drugging the kids and taking Madeleine out of her bed etc.

Can you ever think that there are several events layered on top of each other?  I go for abduction but there is a separate reason why Madeleine is out of her bed.  So it is more complicated but I can include all of the weirdness, the cadaver odour, the possible drugged siblings, the opened windows and the raised shutters.
Gerry turning on the light to check that Madeleine was alright, is a major finding I believe, for at that point there was something happening more important than worrying about whether the kids would be woken by the suddenness of light switching on.

Nope, I think one or two people were involved, the apartment was watched, Madeleine chosen because she was in the apartment with the easiest access, he or they entered during a short window of opportunity of 5-10 minites, took a sleeping Madeleine, and were gone.

[Robittybob1]

The bottom line.

She walked out, as Angelo favours, or she was removed.

I doubt anyone will ever know the truth, bar a confession.

What opened and closed the gates and patio doors behind her.  Very clever 3 year old girl.

Nope, I think one or two people were involved, the apartment was watched, Madeleine chosen because she was in the apartment with the easiest access, he or they entered during a short window of opportunity of 5-10 minites, took a sleeping Madeleine, and were gone.

How would they know when the window of opportunity would pop up or are you thinking they just went for it and got lucky.  For it seemed the checks were spaced quite random when you consider the three ground floor apartments. A walk past one is a check on the all in a way.

I agree the McCann apartment was the most exposed and hence had the easiest access.
Wouldn't she be chosen for her cuteness?

Would they have forced entry if the doors were locked?  Or do you think there had to be insecure apartment plus a cute child combination?  IMO if they are serious abductors they would be willing to jemmy the door as well.

[Alfie]

What opened and closed the gates and patio doors behind her.  Very clever 3 year old girl.
How would they know when the window of opportunity would pop up or are you thinking they just went for it and got lucky.  For it seemed the checks were spaced quite random when you consider the three ground floor apartments. A walk past one is a check on the all in a way.

I agree the McCann apartment was the most exposed and hence had the easiest access.
Wouldn't she be chosen for her cuteness?

Would they have forced entry if the doors were locked?  Or do you think there had to be insecure apartment plus a cute child combination?  IMO if they are serious abductors they would be willing to jemmy the door as well.

If the visits were being watched then taking the child immediately after the last check would maximise the amount of time available to the abductor.  Entry need not have been forced - unless you class raising the window shutter as forced, but other means are the unlcoked patio door and the front door which could have been open with a spare /skeleton key.

[jassi]

If the visits were being watched then taking the child immediately after the last check would maximise the amount of time available to the abductor.  Entry need not have been forced - unless you class raising the window shitter as forced, but other means are the unlcoked patio door and the front door which could have been open with a spare /skeleton key.

Which should be considered as the last check?  Technically, Kate's was the last check of the evening.

If Matt's at 9.30, that would clearly exclude Tannerman.

[Angelo222]

What nonsense.  What evidence gathered to date PRECLUDES abduction?

Oh just the simple fact that there is none to support abduction.  No forced entry, no evidence of an intruder entering via the bedroom window, cots undisturbed, no valuables stolen, no witnesses, no forensics whatsoever to support abduction by an intruder.  Did I miss anything??   &%+((£

[Robittybob1]

Sometimes I think the abductors were targeting a certain girl but got confused somehow and took the wrong daughter.   Even some plot with a political or semi terrorist theme to it.  Jez had some connection to a Jewish organisation looking after young children (like the YMCA but for Jews not Christians).  Did the Palestinians have some plot to capture his daughter instead?
The daughter with the Hebrew name that translates in English to Orly or in Hebrew אורלי

If the visits were being watched then taking the child immediately after the last check would maximise the amount of time available to the abductor.  Entry need not have been forced - unless you class raising the window shutter as forced, but other means are the unlocked patio door and the front door which could have been open with a spare /skeleton key.

Yes a bit of preparation - skeleton key, they were those special keys the round ones with notches https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_(lock)#Abloy   Can they be skeletonised?  It would require a certain skill level, that might be available to international kidnappers.

Last = previous for we don't know when the party would end.

[stephen25000]

What opened and closed the gates and patio doors behind her.  Very clever 3 year old girl.
How would they know when the window of opportunity would pop up or are you thinking they just went for it and got lucky.  For it seemed the checks were spaced quite random when you consider the three ground floor apartments. A walk past one is a check on the all in a way.

I agree the McCann apartment was the most exposed and hence had the easiest access.
Wouldn't she be chosen for her cuteness?

Would they have forced entry if the doors were locked?  Or do you think there had to be insecure apartment plus a cute child combination?  IMO if they are serious abductors they would be willing to jemmy the door as well.

Haven't we been told she was a very bright girl.

Besides, how hard is it to open a door or two ?

[Angelo222]

What opened and closed the gates and patio doors behind her.  Very clever 3 year old girl.

Nobody knows for sure which gates were left open and why.  Leaving the patio door unlocked while closing the child safety gate makes no sense unless Maddie was expected to get out to the patio and shout mummy?

[Robittybob1]

Haven't we been told she was a very bright girl.

Besides, how hard is it to open a door or two ?

That would depend on the design and how much practice she had.