Author Topic: Russia - Ukraine war  (Read 23202 times)

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Online Wonderfulspam

Re: Russia - Ukraine war
« Reply #30 on: March 11, 2022, 07:51:09 AM »


From 2015 regarding the 2014 Revolution Coup (call a spade a spade)

Why is Ukraine the West's Fault? - John Mearsheimer

https://youtu.be/JrMiSQAGOS4?t=107
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Offline Alf

Re: Russia - Ukraine war
« Reply #31 on: March 11, 2022, 08:00:39 AM »
Yes. Condemning Russia's actions is the easy part. Understanding how and why the situation arose is the difficult part.
Obviously condemning Russia’s actions is not something you find easy though.  There can be no justification for invading a sovreign nation and aiming your missiles at civilians but by all means give it a go here, I await your justification with interest (and no doubt in vain)…

Online Wonderfulspam

Re: Russia - Ukraine war
« Reply #32 on: March 11, 2022, 08:09:08 AM »
Obviously condemning Russia’s actions is not something you find easy though.  There can be no justification for invading a sovreign nation and aiming your missiles at civilians but by all means give it a go here, I await your justification with interest (and no doubt in vain)…

Is it OK to arm far right militias & aid them in illegally overthrowing a sitting president though?

Is that OK?

I suppose it has to be if you support Ukraine.
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Online Wonderfulspam

Re: Russia - Ukraine war
« Reply #33 on: March 11, 2022, 08:32:48 AM »

Ukraine could have chosen a path of neutrality.

Russia was never going to tolerate a NATO state on it's border, & why should it?  (Cuban missile crisis anyone?)

They had the option of adopting both EU & Russian trade agreements as late as 2013.

Instead, they chose rabid anti-Russian sentiment, believing the US & NATO would protect them when they poked the Russian bear.

This is why I have little to no sympathy for the Ukranians, they made their bed, they can die in it.
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Online Wonderfulspam

Re: Russia - Ukraine war
« Reply #34 on: March 11, 2022, 09:04:00 AM »
A BBC News segment on Ukraine didn’t mention it was platforming neo-Nazis

A video shows a five-year-old playing with a gun watched over by a uniformed man from a neo-Nazi organisation. You could be forgiven for thinking this BBC footage was from Louis Theroux’s new documentary Forbidden America. But you’d be wrong.

In fact, this footage was broadcast immediately after Theroux’s documentary about the far-right in the US, on the BBC Weekend News. But unlike Theroux’s expose, this news item failed to mention that the group it platformed is a neo-Nazi organisation known for ultranationalism, anti-semitism, and Nazi iconography.

The Azov Regiment

As part of the BBC‘s coverage of the situation in Ukraine, journalist Orla Guerin reported on people preparing for invasion. The segment covered a training afternoon for civilians organised by the National Guard. But it neglected to tell viewers that it was the Azov Regiment – formerly the Azov Battalion – that ran the training event.

Azov was formed in 2014. Its first commander Andriy Biletsky is now the leader of the far-right ultranationalist National Corps party. In 2010, Biletsky stated that Ukraine’s mission was to:

"lead the white races of the world in a final crusade … against Semite-led Untermenschen [subhumans]."

Azov’s links to neo-Nazi ideology are well documented. Even the Sun ran an article in January describing it as “neo-Nazi militia”. The paper further stated that:

On the Azov Battalion-affiliated Thule Signal Telegram channel, openly racist jokes and memes are posted.

The US State Department described the group as a “nationalist hate group”, and it’s banned on Facebook.

Enter the BBC

Despite these well-known links, the BBC uncritically visited the Azov training afternoon. It depicted young and old people learning how to fire guns, including “a granny with a gun”. And, perhaps most worryingly, it interviewed an Azov major. Over the footage of the earlier-mentioned five-year-old, Guerin narrates that there’s “a sense of peril for Ukraine and its people, like 5-year-old…”. She continues her dramatic voiceover, stating there’s a “sense that danger is closing in”.

Yet not once does Guerin mention the dangers of the organisation they’re training with. She simply describes Azov as the “national guard”. The soldier who she interviews is captioned as a “Major” with the “National Guard”.

Euro News also covered the same training event. But the difference is that it headlined its article:

Ukraine far-right group offers training to civilians

No excuses

Even if Azov’s links to the far-right weren’t so widely documented, there is no excuse for the BBC not giving its viewers any background information on the organisation it platformed. Moreover, the BBC itself has reported on those links in the past. A 2014 BBC article contains this description of Azov:

Run by the extremist Patriot of Ukraine organisation, which considers Jews and other minorities “sub-human” and calls for a white, Christian crusade against them, it sports three Nazi symbols on its insignia: a modified Wolf’s Hook, a black sun (or “Hakensonne”) and the title Black Corps, which was used by the Waffen SS.

The same article also states:

"As a result, the question of the presence of the far-right in Ukraine remains a highly sensitive issue, one which top officials and the media shy away from. No-one wants to provide fuel to the Russian propaganda machine."

You couldn’t make it up.

The Canary contacted the BBC for a response, but it declined to comment.

Gross negligence or gross manipulation?

At best, the BBC‘s coverage could be gross negligence. It reported on an event and didn’t bother to question who was running it. At worst, it was gross manipulation, deliberately ignoring Azov’s far-right connections in favour of dramatic footage of people ready to arms themselves to fight against the evil Russian invaders.

Either way, the BBC has a responsibility to its viewers that it didn’t uphold in this piece. According to Ofcom in 2020, the BBC  “remains the most-used news source”. 56% of adults get their news from BBC One. And according to its charter, the BBC should:

act in the public interest, serving all audiences through the provision of impartial, high-quality and distinctive output..

With its segment on Ukraine, the BBC failed to do this. Instead, it platformed dangerous racists without comment. Whatever its reasons, this is simply not good enough.

https://www.thecanary.co/uk/analysis/2022/02/14/a-bbc-news-segment-on-ukraine-didnt-mention-it-was-platforming-neo-nazis/
« Last Edit: March 11, 2022, 09:09:24 AM by Wonderfulspam »
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Online Wonderfulspam

Re: Russia - Ukraine war
« Reply #35 on: March 11, 2022, 09:07:52 AM »

NATO Says It Didn't Notice Ukraine Soldier's Apparent Nazi Symbol in Tweet

https://www.newsweek.com/nato-says-it-didnt-notice-ukraine-soldiers-apparent-nazi-symbol-tweet-1686523
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Offline G-Unit

Re: Russia - Ukraine war
« Reply #36 on: March 11, 2022, 09:17:08 AM »
Ukraine could have chosen a path of neutrality.

Russia was never going to tolerate a NATO state on it's border, & why should it?  (Cuban missile crisis anyone?)

They had the option of adopting both EU & Russian trade agreements as late as 2013.

Instead, they chose rabid anti-Russian sentiment, believing the US & NATO would protect them when they poked the Russian bear.

This is why I have little to no sympathy for the Ukranians, they made their bed, they can die in it.

I wonder what made the Ukrainian government think that the US and NATO would protect them? Wishful thinking on their part or being given the wrong idea by others?
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Offline Alf

Re: Russia - Ukraine war
« Reply #37 on: March 11, 2022, 09:17:16 AM »
When Russia says Ukraine and the USA have developed chemical weapons and are planning to use them are our resident Russian sympathisers inclined to believe them rather than Ukraine who categorically denies this?  Rhetorical question, I think I can probably guess the answer...

Online Wonderfulspam

Re: Russia - Ukraine war
« Reply #38 on: March 11, 2022, 09:18:27 AM »
When Russia says Ukraine and the USA have developed chemical weapons and are planning to use them are our resident Russian sympathisers inclined to believe them rather than Ukraine who categorically denies this?  Rhetorical question, I think I can probably guess the answer...

It's hard to trust either side.

Communists or Nazis?

Take your pick.
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Offline Alf

Re: Russia - Ukraine war
« Reply #39 on: March 11, 2022, 09:20:00 AM »
I wonder what made the Ukrainian government think that the US and NATO would protect them? Wishful thinking on their part or being given the wrong idea by others?
The biggest mistake Ukraine made was giving up its nuclear weapons, IMO.  I doubt we would be in this situation if they still had them.  If this wasn't a major concession to Russia then I don't know what is.   

Online Wonderfulspam

Re: Russia - Ukraine war
« Reply #40 on: March 11, 2022, 09:24:46 AM »
I wonder what made the Ukrainian government think that the US and NATO would protect them? Wishful thinking on their part or being given the wrong idea by others?

Watch the 2015 Mersheimer lecture I posted earlier. (although at the time he believed Russia ultimately would unify with the west against Iran & China)

Ukraine has been "led down the primrose path" by U.S, EU, NATO foreign policy.
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Online Wonderfulspam

Re: Russia - Ukraine war
« Reply #41 on: March 11, 2022, 10:32:37 AM »
The biggest mistake Ukraine made was giving up its nuclear weapons, IMO.  I doubt we would be in this situation if they still had them.  If this wasn't a major concession to Russia then I don't know what is.

That was way back in the 90's.

There was stability, kind of (albeit with mass corruption & poverty), with Ukraine & Russia sharing military bases ( like in Crimea) right up until the late 2000's.

It wasn't until NATO boasted of adopting Ukraine & Georgia into their alliance that Russia started getting twitchy.

Imagine a situation where Canada allied with China & planned to place nuclear arms on the border pointed right at the USA.

The states wouldn't be too keen on the idea.

I imagine that's how Russia feels.

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Offline Alf

Re: Russia - Ukraine war
« Reply #42 on: March 11, 2022, 01:30:57 PM »
Trump's brilliant solution. 

"Unfortunately, Donald Trump still has access to microphones and this week he gave us his solution to the Russian/western stand-off. At a fundraiser — for himself — Trump told donors that the US should take F-22 jets and “put the Chinese flag on them, and bomb the shit out” of Russia. Trump added: “And then we say, China did it, we didn’t do, China did it — and then they start fighting with each other, and we sit back and watch.” "

Maybe it was a joke.  It's hard to tell.

Online Wonderfulspam

Re: Russia - Ukraine war
« Reply #43 on: March 11, 2022, 01:40:10 PM »
Trump's brilliant solution. 

"Unfortunately, Donald Trump still has access to microphones and this week he gave us his solution to the Russian/western stand-off. At a fundraiser — for himself — Trump told donors that the US should take F-22 jets and “put the Chinese flag on them, and bomb the shit out” of Russia. Trump added: “And then we say, China did it, we didn’t do, China did it — and then they start fighting with each other, and we sit back and watch.” "

Maybe it was a joke.  It's hard to tell.

The good thing about Trump was that other nations (even his own actually) found him unpredictable, potentially nuclear even.

He once quipped that if Russia invaded Ukraine he wouldn't rule out a strike on Moscow.

For all his faults, his unpredictable nature was good for world security IMO.

Contrast that with the Biden administration, weeks prior to the Ukraine invasion he publicly ruled out U.S military intervention in Ukraine!
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Offline Alf

Re: Russia - Ukraine war
« Reply #44 on: March 11, 2022, 01:41:01 PM »
OK, this is something that puzzles me.  According to David Starkey we're in this mess because the West is like a woke 16 year old girl, only spends 49 pence a year on defence and is completely powerless which has emboldened Russia to act the way it has, yet on the other hand Russia has acted the way it has because it's so shit scared of Western aggression and expansion that it had to get in first before poor little Russia was beaten into submission by Nato. 

Nope it makes no sense to me.