Author Topic: Differences In Forensics And Trial Between WHF And Murder Of Jill Dando  (Read 11492 times)

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Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Differences In Forensics And Trial Between WHF And Murder Of Jill Dando
« Reply #30 on: April 09, 2019, 02:20:21 PM »
Exactly, Golding found the shower room window not locked so Jones didn't check properly because there was no reason to unlock the shower room window and yet it was unlocked.

What makes you think DCI Jones didn't check properly?
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUvVdTlA23w&list=RDYpkv0HeUvTc&index=2

Offline Caroline

Re: Differences In Forensics And Trial Between WHF And Murder Of Jill Dando
« Reply #31 on: April 09, 2019, 02:43:31 PM »
All other expert witnesses eg Glynis Howard, John Hayward, Dr Vanezis, Prof Knight and Mark Webster at 2002 appeal provided the court with info re high level qualifications ie degrees and membership of professional bodies.  MF was the odd one out in this regard.  I don't think he was being flippant.  I think he was under qualified and unfit to provide the court with credible and reliable evidence. 

He didn't carry out the same kind of investigations as he did in the Bamber case.  This case involved the drawback phenomenon which by MF's own admission was complicated and not them fully appreciated.  I can't find a case anywhere in the world, ever, that has hinged on blood in a silencer.

MF has qualifications but he wasn't asked about those, the question was in respect to what he had done prior to 13 years of experience working in the FA's dept. I'd have given a flippant answer had I been asked the same question under those circumstances.

The case didn't just hinge on blood in the silencer, there was also Julie.

Offline Caroline

Re: Differences In Forensics And Trial Between WHF And Murder Of Jill Dando
« Reply #32 on: April 09, 2019, 02:44:10 PM »
What makes you think DCI Jones didn't check properly?
Because the shower room window was not secured.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Differences In Forensics And Trial Between WHF And Murder Of Jill Dando
« Reply #33 on: April 09, 2019, 03:03:41 PM »
MF has qualifications but he wasn't asked about those, the question was in respect to what he had done prior to 13 years of experience working in the FA's dept. I'd have given a flippant answer had I been asked the same question under those circumstances.

I believe MF obtained further qualifications prior to retirement but there's no evidence at the time of JB's trial he possessed those qualifications.

The case didn't just hinge on blood in the silencer, there was also Julie.

Julie was and always will be a lay witness in terms of JB's trial.  Her testimony was not something that required an expert to decipher in order that the jury could make sense of it.  The blood in the silencer required experts to explain the relevance of a flake of blood representing SC's blood serology results and how it came to be there.

« Last Edit: April 09, 2019, 03:23:43 PM by Holly Goodhead »
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUvVdTlA23w&list=RDYpkv0HeUvTc&index=2

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Differences In Forensics And Trial Between WHF And Murder Of Jill Dando
« Reply #34 on: April 09, 2019, 03:22:59 PM »
Because the shower room window was not secured.

DCI Ainsley:

"There was no apparent entry to or exit from the house and D.Chief Inspector Jones did in fact examine the inside of all ground floor windows and noted that they were all shut and secured on their latches. The scene was photographed. It seems however that after the inspection of D.Chief Jones some person had partially opened the transom window in the kitchen and also opened the catch on the ground floor bathroom windows. I have been unable to discover the person responsible but there was comment made of the smell in the kitchen and the flies gathering. There is no reason to believe that the bathroom window was opened, but following the departure of the Scene of Crime officer, the witness Police Sergeant Golding secured the windows mentioned."

If an officer wanted to use the loo, maybe for a number 2 poo, he may have opened the window out of courtesy to anyone who went in thereafter especially if a queue was forming outside.  It was the height of summer too.  5 dead bodies and a load of men wanting to use the loo in the height of summer.  Afaik portaloos were not brought in and/or outside toilets made available?

The fact remains DCI Jones was senior to Sgt Golding.  DCI Jones made specific notes in his notebook about checking the windows some 5 hours prior to Sgt Golding's check.  By the time Sgt Golding checked numerous officers had been in and out of WHF.   
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUvVdTlA23w&list=RDYpkv0HeUvTc&index=2

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Differences In Forensics And Trial Between WHF And Murder Of Jill Dando
« Reply #35 on: April 09, 2019, 03:42:49 PM »
Does anyone agree with me that jurors should have been taken to WHF to have an opportunity to look at the windows?

Can anyone explain why jurors are often taken to soc but not to WHF?  Eg the jury was taken to Kenneth Noye's house at his trial for the murder of police officer John Fordham.  The jury was taken to the home of Jill Dando. 
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUvVdTlA23w&list=RDYpkv0HeUvTc&index=2

Offline Caroline

Re: Differences In Forensics And Trial Between WHF And Murder Of Jill Dando
« Reply #36 on: April 09, 2019, 07:19:59 PM »
I believe MF obtained further qualifications prior to retirement but there's no evidence at the time of JB's trial he possessed those qualifications.

Julie was and always will be a lay witness in terms of JB's trial.  Her testimony was not something that required an expert to decipher in order that the jury could make sense of it.  The blood in the silencer required experts to explain the relevance of a flake of blood representing SC's blood serology results and how it came to be there.

You believe or you know? Regardless - he had 13 years experience working in the field. I have a degree in psychology, does that make my opinion on the topic more valid than yours even though I have never worked in the field?

I don't think it would matter whether Julie was an expert or a lay witness, she was the only living person close to Bamber and her words put him at the center not the silencer.

Offline Caroline

Re: Differences In Forensics And Trial Between WHF And Murder Of Jill Dando
« Reply #37 on: April 09, 2019, 07:46:24 PM »
DCI Ainsley:

"There was no apparent entry to or exit from the house and D.Chief Inspector Jones did in fact examine the inside of all ground floor windows and noted that they were all shut and secured on their latches. The scene was photographed. It seems however that after the inspection of D.Chief Jones some person had partially opened the transom window in the kitchen and also opened the catch on the ground floor bathroom windows. I have been unable to discover the person responsible but there was comment made of the smell in the kitchen and the flies gathering. There is no reason to believe that the bathroom window was opened, but following the departure of the Scene of Crime officer, the witness Police Sergeant Golding secured the windows mentioned."

If an officer wanted to use the loo, maybe for a number 2 poo, he may have opened the window out of courtesy to anyone who went in thereafter especially if a queue was forming outside.  It was the height of summer too.  5 dead bodies and a load of men wanting to use the loo in the height of summer.  Afaik portaloos were not brought in and/or outside toilets made available?

The fact remains DCI Jones was senior to Sgt Golding.  DCI Jones made specific notes in his notebook about checking the windows some 5 hours prior to Sgt Golding's check.  By the time Sgt Golding checked numerous officers had been in and out of WHF.   

The window wasn't open, it was closed, the lock was open not the window. What does Jones's seniority have to do with anything? Ainsley didn't see Jones check the windows and no one admitted to opening the SR window. I don't believe that Jones physically checked it.

The following is from The Murders at White House Farm: by CAL (p. 190) and is Goldings account ....
"The narrow window that opened horizontally above the kitchen sink was noticeably ajar: ‘To my knowledge no other police officer had opened the fanlight or indeed had reason to place the catch on the bathroom window in the insecure position.’ Sergeant Golding fastened the kitchen window as well, but omitted to inform a senior officer of his actions.

The passage goes on to state that .....

"DCI Jones made no mention of either window in his witness statement, declaring that he had entered ‘every room in the house’ at about 9.15am for a security check. The only window he found unlocked was the one in the dairy, covered by wire mesh with dirt and cobwebs on the gauze and sill. Considering the issue several weeks later, Acting Chief Superintendent Mike Ainsley concluded that the kitchen window must have been opened after Jones’s inspection of the house: ‘I have been unable to discover the person responsible but there was comment made of the smell in the kitchen and the flies gathering. There is no reason to believe that the bathroom window was opened.'

But it was open

 


Offline adam

Re: Differences In Forensics And Trial Between WHF And Murder Of Jill Dando
« Reply #38 on: April 09, 2019, 08:43:34 PM »
Does anyone agree with me that jurors should have been taken to WHF to have an opportunity to look at the windows?

Can anyone explain why jurors are often taken to soc but not to WHF?  Eg the jury was taken to Kenneth Noye's house at his trial for the murder of police officer John Fordham.  The jury was taken to the home of Jill Dando.

Long way to go just to look at a window . Bamber said in his police interviews he knew how to get into WHF through windows.

Julie, the relatives & police would have all testified about the kitchen window. If they were not challenged on this, then there is no point taking the jurors to WHF.

If both the prosecution & defence agreed it was possible to bang shut the kitchen window, the jurors would accept it. But know just because it was possible, does not mean he did.

Offline Myster

Re: Differences In Forensics And Trial Between WHF And Murder Of Jill Dando
« Reply #39 on: April 10, 2019, 05:58:57 AM »
Long way to go just to look at a window . Bamber said in his police interviews he knew how to get into WHF through windows.

Julie, the relatives & police would have all testified about the kitchen window. If they were not challenged on this, then there is no point taking the jurors to WHF.

If both the prosecution & defence agreed it was possible to bang shut the kitchen window, the jurors would accept it. But know just because it was possible, does not mean he did.
The jury went to Fingringhoe firing range, arguably of less importance than visiting WHF to get an impression of the rooms and events discussed at trial.

Chelmsford to Fingringhoe: 28 miles.

Chelmsford to Tolleshunt D'Arcy: 19 miles.

Offline Myster

Re: Differences In Forensics And Trial Between WHF And Murder Of Jill Dando
« Reply #40 on: April 10, 2019, 06:13:42 AM »

Don't you think that exiting from the bathroom window -which had uncluttered access- might have been easier that climbing onto a draining board, which, if the rest of the kitchen is anything to go by, was likely to have been well covered? Stuff not being in usual positions? Mmm. Well, with Sheila and the children there, the usual routine had probably been turned on it's head. Isn't it also possible that if a conversation of a provocative nature had ensued the previous evening, the usual washing up routine may not have been adhered to?
But it wasn't uncluttered. There was a net curtain and toiletries on the window sill which had every chance of being knocked off onto the floor and difficult to reach from outside because the drop was farther than that of the kitchen window.  Hence plastic drainer, soap bottle, etc. could be relocated more easily.  Bamber was fit, well used to climbing in and out of tractors so no problem getting onto a kitchen sink.  I've no idea about the last question.

Offline Myster

Re: Differences In Forensics And Trial Between WHF And Murder Of Jill Dando
« Reply #41 on: April 10, 2019, 06:18:47 AM »
DCI Ainsley:

"There was no apparent entry to or exit from the house and D.Chief Inspector Jones did in fact examine the inside of all ground floor windows and noted that they were all shut and secured on their latches. The scene was photographed. It seems however that after the inspection of D.Chief Jones some person had partially opened the transom window in the kitchen and also opened the catch on the ground floor bathroom windows. I have been unable to discover the person responsible but there was comment made of the smell in the kitchen and the flies gathering. There is no reason to believe that the bathroom window was opened, but following the departure of the Scene of Crime officer, the witness Police Sergeant Golding secured the windows mentioned."

If an officer wanted to use the loo, maybe for a number 2 poo, he may have opened the window out of courtesy to anyone who went in thereafter especially if a queue was forming outside.  It was the height of summer too.  5 dead bodies and a load of men wanting to use the loo in the height of summer.  Afaik portaloos were not brought in and/or outside toilets made available?

The fact remains DCI Jones was senior to Sgt Golding.  DCI Jones made specific notes in his notebook about checking the windows some 5 hours prior to Sgt Golding's check.  By the time Sgt Golding checked numerous officers had been in and out of WHF.   
Now, Now!... it was a crime scene.  I know they messed up initially, but contaminating it further is stretching things a bit.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Differences In Forensics And Trial Between WHF And Murder Of Jill Dando
« Reply #42 on: April 10, 2019, 10:56:14 AM »
The window wasn't open, it was closed, the lock was open not the window. What does Jones's seniority have to do with anything? Ainsley didn't see Jones check the windows and no one admitted to opening the SR window. I don't believe that Jones physically checked it.

The following is from The Murders at White House Farm: by CAL (p. 190) and is Goldings account ....
"The narrow window that opened horizontally above the kitchen sink was noticeably ajar: ‘To my knowledge no other police officer had opened the fanlight or indeed had reason to place the catch on the bathroom window in the insecure position.’ Sergeant Golding fastened the kitchen window as well, but omitted to inform a senior officer of his actions.

The passage goes on to state that .....

"DCI Jones made no mention of either window in his witness statement, declaring that he had entered ‘every room in the house’ at about 9.15am for a security check. The only window he found unlocked was the one in the dairy, covered by wire mesh with dirt and cobwebs on the gauze and sill. Considering the issue several weeks later, Acting Chief Superintendent Mike Ainsley concluded that the kitchen window must have been opened after Jones’s inspection of the house: ‘I have been unable to discover the person responsible but there was comment made of the smell in the kitchen and the flies gathering. There is no reason to believe that the bathroom window was opened.'

But it was open

Sgt Golding states he found the catch open but DCI Jones said when he checked some 5 hours earlier they were all secured.  The chances are that someone had used the loo, opened the window and either forgot to put the catch back, couldn't be bothered, or tried and found it difficult so left it perhaps fearing they may damage the window/catch by using brute force. 

According to DCI Jones' notebook he stated he went round the house observing each victim in situ.  The next thing he did was look for signs of forced entry.  He found none other than in the kitchen ie door broken down by officers.  He clearly checked all windows evidenced by his notes and the fact he went into detail re what he referred to as the pantry window which on the official layout is described at the dairy. 

The fact he looked for signs of forced entry shows imo he was keeping an open mind and not automatically running with the idea SC was responsible. 

If you or others want to say something along the lines he was looking for signs of forced entry but not meticulously inspecting the window catches so be it. 

As we all know by the time of the trial sadly DCI Jones had died in a tragic accident at home carrying out some diy.  Therefore a statement was read out on his behalf:

264. In contrast with Sergeant Golding, DCI Jones made a statement dated 7 October 1985 in which he reported that he had attended at the farm at approximately 9.15 a.m. on 7 August and he had proceeded to check every room on the ground floor of the house and found that on the ground floor all the windows in the house were secure and locked except the window to the dairy. That statement was read to the Jury as part of the Defence case.

Yes DCI Jones made a stat dated 7th Oct '85 re the windows but he also made notes in his notebook presumably on the day of the murders re the windows.

263. Police Sergeant Golding gave evidence that at 2.30 p.m. on 7 August he commenced to secure the ground floor and found all windows to be secure and fastened with the exception of two windows. One was in the ground floor bathroom, which was in a closed position with the catch open. He secured the window by closing the latch. The other was a transom window, which formed part of a casement type window in the kitchen. The transom window was open approximately halfway. He secured the window.

Did Sgt Golding make notes in his notebook on the day of the murders re the windows or did he make a wit stat from memory at a time when the investigation changed from murder/suicide to murder?
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUvVdTlA23w&list=RDYpkv0HeUvTc&index=2

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Differences In Forensics And Trial Between WHF And Murder Of Jill Dando
« Reply #43 on: April 10, 2019, 11:23:20 AM »
You believe or you know? Regardless - he had 13 years experience working in the field. I have a degree in psychology, does that make my opinion on the topic more valid than yours even though I have never worked in the field?

I don't think it would matter whether Julie was an expert or a lay witness, she was the only living person close to Bamber and her words put him at the center not the silencer.

Unless I was able to carry out background checks on MF, which I'm not, how could I possibly know for sure what qualifications he had and when he obtained them?  What I do know for sure is how MF introduced himself at trial which was in sharp contrast to all the other expert witnesses. 

MF said he had 13 years experience working in the firearms dept but this doesn't tell us exactly what his experience covered or what qualified him to provide reliable and credible testimony on very complex aspects of ballistics ie the drawback phenomenon, gunshot residues and pathology of gunshot wounds. 

I don't know what you mean by Julie was the only living person close to JB?  By the time JM provided her damning testimony the relationship was over.  The pair were in their late teens/early twenties during the 18 month relationship.  They never lived together full-time.  Most of the time there was some considerable geographic distance between them.  Afaik they didn't even holiday together other than the odd weekend away?  How would any of know their true feelings towards one another at any stage of the relationship and/or whether either party saw it as long-term?

If JM's testimony was stronger than the silencer the CCRC would not have referred JB's case to CoA on the back of the silencer/blood.
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUvVdTlA23w&list=RDYpkv0HeUvTc&index=2

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Differences In Forensics And Trial Between WHF And Murder Of Jill Dando
« Reply #44 on: April 10, 2019, 11:36:28 AM »
Long way to go just to look at a window . Bamber said in his police interviews he knew how to get into WHF through windows.

Julie, the relatives & police would have all testified about the kitchen window. If they were not challenged on this, then there is no point taking the jurors to WHF.

If both the prosecution & defence agreed it was possible to bang shut the kitchen window, the jurors would accept it. But know just because it was possible, does not mean he did.

Yes JB said he knew he could gain entry through windows but he did not know of a way of exiting leaving windows/doors secured from within. 

There was a lot for jurors to look at at WHF not just the windows eg blood stains on carpets and other exhibits, casings, location of victims found and likely locations when they sustained non-fatal gsw's along with info re trajectories showing perp/victim location.

Other cases involving shooting incidents jurors were taken to soc:

Tony Martin's home:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/711870.stm

And Jill Dando's home:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1323186.stm
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUvVdTlA23w&list=RDYpkv0HeUvTc&index=2