UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
UK and North American politics. => A look at British politics in the light of the decision to leave the EU. => Topic started by: Carana on July 06, 2016, 09:45:14 AM
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Fishermen were apparently massively pro-Brexit. I recall tales of of an unfair quota system, with lots of fishermen being forced out of business, which made their view fairly understandable (to me).
However, upon reading a bit more about it as my knowledge of the issues was zilch, the CFP appears to have been reformed since those old days.
The frequently heard gripe of "bloody foreigners fishing in our waters"
A few facts, assuming they are correct:
- "The UK has only 13% of the EU's total sea area, but we are allocated 30% of the EU's total quota."
- "The EU is by far our biggest export market; in 2014, exports of fish and fish products to the EU were worth £1.01 billion, almost double the £550 million sold to all other countries combined (2). We run a net trade surplus with the EU in fish and fish products, with exports worth £160 million more than imports."
A few links:
http://nffo.org.uk/eu-referendum/2016/05/13/we-must-not-lose-our-voice-in-eu-fishing-policy
http://nffo.org.uk/eu-referendum/2016/04/15/what-would-brexit-really-mean-for-the-uks-fishing-industry
http://nffo.org.uk/eu-referendum/2016/06/15/brexit-better-for-fisheries-is-pure-fantasy
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Fishermen were apparently massively pro-Brexit. I recall tales of of an unfair quota system, with lots of fishermen being forced out of business, which made their view fairly understandable (to me).
However, upon reading a bit more about it as my knowledge of the issues was zilch, the CFP appears to have been reformed since those old days.
The frequently heard gripe of "bloody foreigners fishing in our waters"
A few facts, assuming they are correct:
- "The UK has only 13% of the EU's total sea area, but we are allocated 30% of the EU's total quota."
- "The EU is by far our biggest export market; in 2014, exports of fish and fish products to the EU were worth £1.01 billion, almost double the £550 million sold to all other countries combined (2). We run a net trade surplus with the EU in fish and fish products, with exports worth £160 million more than imports."
A few links:
http://nffo.org.uk/eu-referendum/2016/05/13/we-must-not-lose-our-voice-in-eu-fishing-policy
http://nffo.org.uk/eu-referendum/2016/04/15/what-would-brexit-really-mean-for-the-uks-fishing-industry
http://nffo.org.uk/eu-referendum/2016/06/15/brexit-better-for-fisheries-is-pure-fantasy
Thanks for that information Carana.
It does put some more myths of Brexit into context of what they claimed, namely fantasy-land.
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Thanks for that information Carana.
It does put some more myths of Brexit into context of what they claimed, namely fantasy-land.
I'd already heard the gripe of "bloody foreigners taking our fish"... but 20% of the fish landed by the UK is caught in the waters surrounding other countries. As someone puts it:
Whose Fish Are They Anyway?
26th May 2016
Why exiting the European Union won’t mean your plaice or mine
“Fish aren’t British or French or Spanish – they’re just fish and they don’t respect national boundaries,” says Debbie Crockard.
https://www.mcsuk.org/press/view/682
Again, it seems to be more of an emotional reaction, rather than a rational one.
There must be a few valid arguments, though. I suppose for any mom and pop fishing businesses with relatively small boats, any huge foreign vessels sweeping through must feel like the Armada. I doubt that I could find the cite right now, but apparently quite a few seemingly "foreign" ones are actually owned by UK companies anyway.
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Fishermen were apparently massively pro-Brexit. I recall tales of of an unfair quota system, with lots of fishermen being forced out of business, which made their view fairly understandable (to me).
However, upon reading a bit more about it as my knowledge of the issues was zilch, the CFP appears to have been reformed since those old days.
The frequently heard gripe of "bloody foreigners fishing in our waters"
A few facts, assuming they are correct:
- "The UK has only 13% of the EU's total sea area, but we are allocated 30% of the EU's total quota."
- "The EU is by far our biggest export market; in 2014, exports of fish and fish products to the EU were worth £1.01 billion, almost double the £550 million sold to all other countries combined (2). We run a net trade surplus with the EU in fish and fish products, with exports worth £160 million more than imports."
A few links:
http://nffo.org.uk/eu-referendum/2016/05/13/we-must-not-lose-our-voice-in-eu-fishing-policy
http://nffo.org.uk/eu-referendum/2016/04/15/what-would-brexit-really-mean-for-the-uks-fishing-industry
http://nffo.org.uk/eu-referendum/2016/06/15/brexit-better-for-fisheries-is-pure-fantasy
Leslie Girvan – Board member of NIFPO, ex-vice chairman of FAL, owner of three fishing vessels and owner of a Fish Selling company in Kilkeel, Northern Ireland
There is not one single positive aspect of the UK’s suicidal involvement with the European Union – an involvement that has brought about the decimation of the British fishing industry.
The well-worn EU phrase of “too many boats chasing not enough fish” to justify their ever-reducing quota allocations was never a British problem – it was a problem that arose due to the agreement to allow the EU “access to a common resource” which resulted in hundreds of Spanish and French boats being allowed catch fish in British waters.
The time to rectify this situation is now!
John Ashworth – trawl door designer and respected industry commentator
As the designer and manufacture of the Bison Trawl door, I have experienced the unusual position of having worked on trawlers in many parts of the world, not as a fisherman, but a person gaining experience, or teaching how to use the product.
I have witnessed first-hand the damage done to coastal communities, especially Africa, with third country EU agreements, and in the now EU ‘pond’, the inability to manage the marine resource successfully, simply because we have, by our EU treaty obligations, to be run under a political objective.
Charlie McBride — skipper/owner Arcane II
After 40 years of watching blatant mis-management of our fishing industry, and seeing over 60% of the UK’s whitefish fleet scrapped while other EU Member States were given subsidies to build additional new fishing vessels, the time has come to say “enough is enough”.
We must not only halt the EU-driven decline of our industry now, but also to protect the working lives for our children for the future.
More... (http://ffl.org.uk/divided-by-eu-rule-united-in-fighting-for-britains-fishing-industry/)
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Channel Cod Quotas.
UK fisheries can land 144 tonnes of cod from the channel per year.
French fisheries can land 1660 tonnes.
The fisherman in my town voted leave, unsurprisingly.
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Channel Cod Quotas.
UK fisheries can land 144 tonnes of cod from the channel per year.
French fisheries can land 1660 tonnes.
The fisherman in my town voted leave, unsurprisingly.
It is quite ironic that the EU Commission has actually succeeded where our own fishing leaders have failed for decades i.e. to get complete unity amongst all fishermen and a single cause that they can fight together for!
It never ceases to amaze how even now some look upon the EU as being a force for good?
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Wales and Cornwall voted Brexit, as we know... but it does seem that they're biting the hand that feeds them.
From the link to the Wales article:
David Cameron has warned his successor as prime minister cannot guarantee EU funding for Wales will continue after the vote to leave.
Research from Cardiff University suggested the region enjoys an annual net benefit of £245 million from the UK's membership.
PMQ:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-david-cameron-wales-eu-funding-no-guarantee-warning-eu-referendum-a7109636.html
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Cornwall and Europe
I owe EU
Why did the region that benefits most from EU membership vote against it?
Jul 2nd 2016 | REDRUTH AND TRURO | From the print edition
http://www.economist.com/news/britain/21701548-why-did-region-benefits-most-eu-membership-vote-against-it-i-owe-eu
People in Cornwall stand to lose the equivalent of £863 each after the UK leaves the European Union.
The warning comes from the Joseph Rowntree Foundation (JRF), which says that the region faces being by far the hardest hit when European aid ends, losing £476million across the county.
In Devon and Somerset, the amount per person in aid is £55. The average hit across England would be £102 per head if the EU funding were not replaced, with the biggest loss outside Cornwall set to be £243 for people in the Tees Valley in the North East.
Read more at http://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/people-in-cornwall-could-lose-863-each-after-brexit/story-29479428-detail/story.html#ozZzOJsMeybEL0WG.99
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Wales and Cornwall voted Brexit, as we know... but it does seem that they're biting the hand that feeds them.
From the link to the Wales article:
David Cameron has warned his successor as prime minister cannot guarantee EU funding for Wales will continue after the vote to leave.
Research from Cardiff University suggested the region enjoys an annual net benefit of £245 million from the UK's membership.
PMQ:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-david-cameron-wales-eu-funding-no-guarantee-warning-eu-referendum-a7109636.html
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Cornwall and Europe
I owe EU
Why did the region that benefits most from EU membership vote against it?
Jul 2nd 2016 | REDRUTH AND TRURO | From the print edition
http://www.economist.com/news/britain/21701548-why-did-region-benefits-most-eu-membership-vote-against-it-i-owe-eu
People in Cornwall stand to lose the equivalent of £863 each after the UK leaves the European Union.
The warning comes from the Joseph Rowntree Foundation (JRF), which says that the region faces being by far the hardest hit when European aid ends, losing £476million across the county.
In Devon and Somerset, the amount per person in aid is £55. The average hit across England would be £102 per head if the EU funding were not replaced, with the biggest loss outside Cornwall set to be £243 for people in the Tees Valley in the North East.
Read more at http://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/people-in-cornwall-could-lose-863-each-after-brexit/story-29479428-detail/story.html#ozZzOJsMeybEL0WG.99
The scaremongering continues.
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Channel Cod Quotas.
UK fisheries can land 144 tonnes of cod from the channel per year.
French fisheries can land 1660 tonnes.
The fisherman in my town voted leave, unsurprisingly.
I'd be interested in reading more about that if you have a link.
According to what I've been reading, the UK has the second largest fishing quota after Spain, but it may well be broken down according to types of fish / crustaceans.
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I'd be interested in reading more about that if you have a link.
According to what I've been reading, the UK has the second largest fishing quota after Spain, but it may well be broken down according to types of fish / crustaceans.
Here is more general data about the EU countries fishing data.
What would also be of relevance would be consumption figures of fish and other sea produce in those same countries.
I will look for that later, meanwhile time for Chilcott to speak.
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Leslie Girvan – Board member of NIFPO, ex-vice chairman of FAL, owner of three fishing vessels and owner of a Fish Selling company in Kilkeel, Northern Ireland
There is not one single positive aspect of the UK’s suicidal involvement with the European Union – an involvement that has brought about the decimation of the British fishing industry.
The well-worn EU phrase of “too many boats chasing not enough fish” to justify their ever-reducing quota allocations was never a British problem – it was a problem that arose due to the agreement to allow the EU “access to a common resource” which resulted in hundreds of Spanish and French boats being allowed catch fish in British waters.
The time to rectify this situation is now!
John Ashworth – trawl door designer and respected industry commentator
As the designer and manufacture of the Bison Trawl door, I have experienced the unusual position of having worked on trawlers in many parts of the world, not as a fisherman, but a person gaining experience, or teaching how to use the product.
I have witnessed first-hand the damage done to coastal communities, especially Africa, with third country EU agreements, and in the now EU ‘pond’, the inability to manage the marine resource successfully, simply because we have, by our EU treaty obligations, to be run under a political objective.
Charlie McBride — skipper/owner Arcane II
After 40 years of watching blatant mis-management of our fishing industry, and seeing over 60% of the UK’s whitefish fleet scrapped while other EU Member States were given subsidies to build additional new fishing vessels, the time has come to say “enough is enough”.
We must not only halt the EU-driven decline of our industry now, but also to protect the working lives for our children for the future.
More... (http://ffl.org.uk/divided-by-eu-rule-united-in-fighting-for-britains-fishing-industry/)
Interesting, and thanks for the argument on the Brexit side. I'll come back to it a bit later as some of those statements don't appear to be factually correct.
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The EU let Spanish trawlers come into our inshore waters and scoop up everything in sight while our own boats were forced to tie up in port. Nothing will ever change that fact!!
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The EU let Spanish trawlers come into our inshore waters and scoop up everything in sight while our own boats were forced to tie up in port. Nothing will ever change that fact!!
Can you prove that to be true, since if it was there would be no fish left ?
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Can you prove that to be true, since if it was there would be no fish left ?
so do we have the same amount of fishing boats operating before we enterEd the EU
it seems the uk waters are where all the fish are and thats why the foreign ships are here
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Can you prove that to be true, since if it was there would be no fish left ?
Have you slept through the last ten years?
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Have you slept through the last ten years?
NO.
Now provide your proof.
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NO.
Now provide your proof.
In 2010 the Spanish owned trawlers O Gentia and Coyo Tercero were fined a total of £1.62 million for illegal fishing. Coyo Tercero was stopped by the Royal Navy fisheries protection vessel HMS Tyne and found to have 500kg of salted ling on board which were not recorded in the logbook while O Genita had been involved in illegal ship-to-ship transfers of fish at sea in an attempt to avoid quota restrictions. (3) Danny Poulding of the Marine Management Organisation which led the prosecutions stated in 2010:
“This company systematically abused the quota system for significant and unfair financial gain, threatening the future sustainability of an already vulnerable fish stock and impacting on the businesses of legitimate fishermen by flooding the market with cheaper fish. (3)“
However, the news released in 2013 revealed that despite its past crimes the O Genita still had a large quota to fish in UK waters – clearly serious breaches of UK and EU fishing laws are no barrier to being rewarded with quotas in the future.
http://britishseafishing.co.uk/cornelis-vrolijk/
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Can you prove that to be true, since if it was there would be no fish left ?
Wasn't that the point back then, the foreign boats both legal under the EU and illegal had lifted so many fish that severe quotas had to be brought in to protect what was left.
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In 2010 the Spanish owned trawlers O Gentia and Coyo Tercero were fined a total of £1.62 million for illegal fishing. Coyo Tercero was stopped by the Royal Navy fisheries protection vessel HMS Tyne and found to have 500kg of salted ling on board which were not recorded in the logbook while O Genita had been involved in illegal ship-to-ship transfers of fish at sea in an attempt to avoid quota restrictions. (3) Danny Poulding of the Marine Management Organisation which led the prosecutions stated in 2010:
“This company systematically abused the quota system for significant and unfair financial gain, threatening the future sustainability of an already vulnerable fish stock and impacting on the businesses of legitimate fishermen by flooding the market with cheaper fish. (3)“
However, the news released in 2013 revealed that despite its past crimes the O Genita still had a large quota to fish in UK waters – clearly serious breaches of UK and EU fishing laws are no barrier to being rewarded with quotas in the future.
http://britishseafishing.co.uk/cornelis-vrolijk/
A new report has found that Britain is the country most responsible for overfishing in its territorial waters despite it being bound by the Common Fisheries Policy which sets annual quotas.
The report by the New Foundation said that UK fisheries ministers “squander the economic potential of our seas by consistently fishing over and above the limits recommended by scientists,” according to The Times.
Quotas for fishermen from across the EU are decided by fisheries ministers in Brussels. They have to negotiate for a large enough ‘Total Allowable Catch’ to keep what remains of the UK fishing industry afloat while not plundering the UK’s territorial waters. The discussions of the meetings are kept secret, with only the findings being made public.
And up until the CFP was finally reformed, the TAC resulted in millions of tonnes of dead fish being thrown overboard after being caught as the European Commission had failed to understand that the ‘discards’ would be dead after they had been caught and brought on board.
According to the report’s authors, food for an additional 160 million EU citizens and an extra €3.2 billion in annual revenue could be made if ministers paid more attention to scientific advice, which would result in stocks being allowed to return to their maximum sustainable yield (MSY). It says that if this happened, 100,000 jobs across the EU could be created.
But the findings ignore the devastation the Common Fisheries Policy has brought to the UK’s fishing industry; once thriving and now on its knees. Sometimes British fishermen can only stand on the shore and watch, their quotas reached, as trawlers from other countries catch fish in UK territorial waters.
“Every year fisheries ministers have an opportunity to unlock this potential when they agree how much fish should be caught in EU waters,” the report says. “Scientific bodies like the International Council for the Exploration of the Sea (ICES) and the Scientific, Technical and Economic Committee for Fisheries (STECF) provide provide information about the state of most stocks and recommend maximum catch levels.
“The UK, France and Denmark top the ranking of EU overfishing states in Northern European waters because they have the highest share of stocks that will be fished above scientific advice. For example, UK will fish 34,453 tonnes of mackerel; France 7,118 tonnes of blue whiting; and Denmark 17,710 tonnes of sprat, all in excess of scientific advice.”
Statistics included in the findings say that between 1987 and 2011, Total Allowable Catches were set higher than scientific advice in an average of 68 per cent of decisions for 31 out of the total 69 categories of fish stocks. And it says there are few signs that the reformed CFP has led to any real chance, with TAC for the Baltic Sea and deep waters in 2015 also set above the recommended levels of scientists.
But the report was questioned by UKIP Fisheries spokesman Ray Finch MEP who said that it failed to take into account the bartering which has to take place as member states territorial waters became property of the European Union.
“British waters are indeed overfished but once we leave the CFP and gain control of our own fish stocks we will be able to make decisions based on the best interests of Britain, our fishing industry and our fish stocks.
“The CFP has been one of the biggest environmental disasters in modern times and the responsibility for that should be laid firmly at the feet of Brussels Bureaucrats greedy to allow overfishing and weak British ministers.”
A spokeswoman for the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs said: “The UK government enters annual negotiations [with the EU] with the firm belief that any decisions need to deliver a thriving fishing industry, sustainable fish stocks and a healthy marine environment. We listen to the best available scientific advice to achieve this.”
http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/03/26/report-slams-britain-as-worst-in-eu-for-overfishing-in-its-own-waters/
i.e. Angelo, it isn't just one country over fishing and abusing quotas.
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so do we have the same amount of fishing boats operating before we enterEd the EU
it seems the uk waters are where all the fish are and thats why the foreign ships are here
The EU swiftly altered the rules in 1970 just as Britain, Ireland, Denmark and Norway applied to join. Between them they controlled the richest fishing grounds in the world. The rule change allowed all member states equal access. This helped those who had depleted fish stocks in the Mediterranean. I believe this was one of the reasons for Greenland exiting and they do OK.
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Individual fishing quotas are obviously one aspect but running huge projects like Little Britian and the EU will always present conflicts of interest which need managing.
What takes precedence the stability of the UK's economy or fishing quotas?
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So do Leavers expect to see the return of the British fishing industry in all its glory now? What other industries do you expect to see being boosted by us leaving the EU?
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So do Leavers expect to see the return of the British fishing industry in all its glory now? What other industries do you expect to see being boosted by us leaving the EU?
The fishing stocks are recovering since the Spanish and Dutch factory ships had to go elsewhere. The industry will recover some of the ground lost but as so many boats have been broken up and so many experienced fishermen has been lost for ever that it will take a while.
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The important thing is that we take back control of fishing in our inshore waters. Our fishermen at last have an opportunity which many thought would never come again. It is a very true saying, nothing lasts for ever!
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The important thing is that we take back control of fishing in our inshore waters. Our fishermen at last have an opportunity which many thought would never come again. It is can very true saying, nothing lasts for ever!
Neither do the fish. 8**8:/:
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The important thing is that we take back control of fishing in our inshore waters. Our fishermen at last have an opportunity which many thought would never come again. It is can very true saying, nothing lasts for ever!
That may depend on what trade deal can be struck.
"The EU is by far our biggest export market; in 2014, exports of fish and fish products to the EU were worth £1.01 billion, almost double the £550 million sold to all other countries combined (2). We run a net trade surplus with the EU in fish and fish products, with exports worth £160 million more than imports."
At the moment, the UK as a £160 m trade surplus.
If the UK doesn't cut a deal, then presumably WTO tariffs would apply (this is from 2009, so it may not be up-to-date) - see p. 23 (p.25 of the pdf) onwards:
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/etudes/join/2009/419119/IPOL-PECH_ET(2009)419119_EN.pdf
A different issue is that the UK would still need to abide by the various UN conventions.
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Neither do the fish. 8**8:/:
A slight problem is that fish, erm, swim. I wonder if anyone told the fish about Brexit? &%+((£
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Commercial fishing and fisheries – guidance
European Maritime and Fisheries Fund (EMFF): before you apply
From:
Marine Management Organisation
First published:
18 January 2016
Last updated:
23 May 2016, see all updates
Part of:
Funding, Marine environment and Marine fisheries
The UK has €243 million (around £190 million) of the programme which is split between England (€92.1 million), Scotland (€107.7 million) Northern Ireland (€23.5 million) and Wales (€19.7 million).
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/european-maritime-and-fisheries-fund-emff-before-you-apply
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That may depend on what trade deal can be struck.
"The EU is by far our biggest export market; in 2014, exports of fish and fish products to the EU were worth £1.01 billion, almost double the £550 million sold to all other countries combined (2). We run a net trade surplus with the EU in fish and fish products, with exports worth £160 million more than imports."
At the moment, the UK as a £160 m trade surplus.
If the UK doesn't cut a deal, then presumably WTO tariffs would apply (this is from 2009, so it may not be up-to-date) - see p. 23 (p.25 of the pdf) onwards:
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/etudes/join/2009/419119/IPOL-PECH_ET(2009)419119_EN.pdf
A different issue is that the UK would still need to abide by the various UN conventions.
They need our fish just as we delight in their automobile products and Mediterranean spoils. Have faith, all will be resolved in the fullness of time.
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They need our fish just as we delight in their automobile products and Mediterranean spoils. Have faith, all will be resolved in the fullness of time.
Have faith , in what exactly?
Fish migrate. The boats can only fish in the agreed areas.
Over fishing happens and will happen again.
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Have faith , in what exactly?
Fish migrate. The boats can only fish in the agreed areas.
Over fishing happens and will happen again.
What exactly does a UK fish look like?
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What exactly does a UK fish look like?
@)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(* *&*%£
Carana ffs... I haven't stopped laughing at that one! I saw one in the chippy last night...it wasn't a Scottish salmon btw...
...or was that a sturgeon? &%+((£
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@)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(* *&*%£
Carana ffs... I haven't stopped laughing at that one! I saw one in the chippy last night...it wasn't a Scottish salmon btw...
...or was that a sturgeon? &%+((£
@)(++(* Glad I made you smile, John. 8**8:/:
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@)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(* *&*%£
Carana ffs... I haven't stopped laughing at that one! I saw one in the chippy last night...it wasn't a Scottish salmon btw...
...or was that a sturgeon? &%+((£
*&*%£
Clever 8@??)(
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What exactly does a UK fish look like?
That would be a fish living in the coastal waters of the UK.
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That would be a fish living in the coastal waters of the UK.
Yes, I realise that, although I'm not sure that anyone has explained to the fish where they are allowed to spend their entire lives, but anyway.
(If anyone had told me a week or two ago that I would be curious about the UK fishing industry, I'd have offered them a thermometer...)
Transboundary stocks
See also: Highly migratory species
Fisheries management, usually adhering to guidelines set by the FAO, provides significant practical mechanisms for the control of EEZs. Transboundary fish stocks are an important concept in this control.[13] Transboundary stocks are fish stocks that range in the EEZs of at least two countries. Straddling stocks, on the other hand, range both within an EEZ as well as in the high seas, outside any EEZ. A stock can be both transboundary and straddling.[14]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exclusive_economic_zone#Transboundary_stocks
There is already a UN convention governing the 200 nmi Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exclusive_economic_zone
So.... in or out of the EU, that UN convention still has to be respected.
From what I can gather, at some point back in time, there was some kind of major gripe leading to various reforms. There are no doubt still some gripes, but how far are they the EU's fault, as opposed to a common - but perhaps misleading - perception?
Therefore, I'm still at a loss as to why UK fishermen seem to be largely Brexiteers (I haven't yet discovered whether this also applies to Scottish fishermen or not.)
What exactly do they stand to gain?
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Someone mentioned the issue of a massive Dutch trawler the other day.
I've tried to look into that.
That Dutch trawler, the Cornelis Vrolijk, flies under a UK flag and is registered in Hull.
I can understand the argument that fishermen perceived the situation to be unfair, but I still don't understand how the situation was the fault of the EU if a company in one country decides to set up a subsidiary in another country for commercial purposes.
On a different point (unless I've misunderstood this) this trawler wasn't actually some kind of Jaws swooping up the livelihoods of much smaller businesses operating closer to shore for different types of fish / seafood, yet my impression is that that is how it has been portrayed in the media.
A few links:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2854348/One-Dutch-trawler-gets-quarter-England-s-entire-fish-quota-English-fishermen-allowed-two-crates-worth-50.html#ixzz4Do4s1xsp
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/environment/article4256582.ece
http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/half-of-english-fishing-quotas-controlled-by-overseas-firms-9836970.html
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I also have had no interest in fish before. @)(++(*
I looked at Atlantic Cod, which do seem to live in specific areas. I think the EU has allowed other countries to fish our coastal waters under the Common Fisheries Policy.
Spanish trawlers will be allowed into large areas of over-fished waters around Britain and Ireland after the Government yesterday lost its long campaign to keep them out.....Tony Marlowe, one of those who lost the whip for opposing the European Finance Bill said: "It's blackmail. A bunch of foreigners are to decide to whom to allocate British fish. These are British fish in British waters and there is nothing our Government can do short of leaving the Common Fisheries Policy."
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/spanish-allowed-to-fish-british-waters-1390475.html
Spanish fish barons admit taking illegal catches in UK waters
Fishermen who flout conservation rules still receive millions in subsidies through a failed European quota system
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/news/spanish-fish-barons-admit-taking-illegal-catches-in-uk-waters-7964246.html
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I also have had no interest in fish before. @)(++(*
I looked at Atlantic Cod, which do seem to live in specific areas. I think the EU has allowed other countries to fish our coastal waters under the Common Fisheries Policy.
Spanish trawlers will be allowed into large areas of over-fished waters around Britain and Ireland after the Government yesterday lost its long campaign to keep them out.....Tony Marlowe, one of those who lost the whip for opposing the European Finance Bill said: "It's blackmail. A bunch of foreigners are to decide to whom to allocate British fish. These are British fish in British waters and there is nothing our Government can do short of leaving the Common Fisheries Policy."
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/spanish-allowed-to-fish-british-waters-1390475.html
Spanish fish barons admit taking illegal catches in UK waters
Fishermen who flout conservation rules still receive millions in subsidies through a failed European quota system
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/news/spanish-fish-barons-admit-taking-illegal-catches-in-uk-waters-7964246.html
There have no doubt been various parties trying to circumvent regulations or even flagrantly ignoring them - perhaps even some in the UK doing the same to other countries.
However... I still don't see how this is an EU issue.
NB: I've found a UK fish
(http://www.iloveunionjack.com/img/logo-new.png)
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Sorry, I can't resist the temptation... @)(++(*
The Fish knows... Iggy Pop
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-s2INLW2CL0
ETA:
The fish doesn't think. The fish is mute, expressionless. The fish doesn't think because the fish knows ...
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Someone mentioned the issue of a massive Dutch trawler the other day.
I've tried to look into that.
That Dutch trawler, the Cornelis Vrolijk, flies under a UK flag and is registered in Hull.
I can understand the argument that fishermen perceived the situation to be unfair, but I still don't understand how the situation was the fault of the EU if a company in one country decides to set up a subsidiary in another country for commercial purposes.
On a different point (unless I've misunderstood this) this trawler wasn't actually some kind of Jaws swooping up the livelihoods of much smaller businesses operating closer to shore for different types of fish / seafood, yet my impression is that that is how it has been portrayed in the media.
A few links:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2854348/One-Dutch-trawler-gets-quarter-England-s-entire-fish-quota-English-fishermen-allowed-two-crates-worth-50.html#ixzz4Do4s1xsp
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/environment/article4256582.ece
http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/half-of-english-fishing-quotas-controlled-by-overseas-firms-9836970.html
It started some time ago and according to John Lichfield's article had its genesis as a result of the outcome of the 'cod wars' with Norway and Iceland extending their territorial waters which excluded British trawlers from traditional fishing grounds.
Which led to British registered invasion of other territorial waters and scant regard for conservation. it's a very complicated business which will require a lot of unravelling and maybe the commissioning of a fleet of gun boats (that should give the shipyards a boost??).
Britain's fishy role in the quota-hopping scandal
Foreign vessels are legally taking a large chunk of the UK's fishing quota. But it is our own government's double-think and double-talk that is to blame rather than the minefield of EU rules, says John Lichfield
John Lichfield Saturday 21 December 1996
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/britains-fishy-role-in-the-quota-hopping-scandal-1315516.html
Atlantic Dawn: The Ship from Hell
“Atlantic Dawn … is the greatest fish killing machine the world has ever seen.” – Charles Clover, The End of the Line. http://britishseafishing.co.uk/atlantic-dawn-the-ship-from-hell/
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It started some time ago and according to John Lichfield's article had its genesis as a result of the outcome of the 'cod wars' with Norway and Iceland extending their territorial waters which excluded British trawlers from traditional fishing grounds.
Which led to British registered invasion of other territorial waters and scant regard for conservation. it's a very complicated business which will require a lot of unravelling and maybe the commissioning of a fleet of gun boats (that should give the shipyards a boost??).
Britain's fishy role in the quota-hopping scandal
Foreign vessels are legally taking a large chunk of the UK's fishing quota. But it is our own government's double-think and double-talk that is to blame rather than the minefield of EU rules, says John Lichfield
John Lichfield Saturday 21 December 1996
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/britains-fishy-role-in-the-quota-hopping-scandal-1315516.html
Atlantic Dawn: The Ship from Hell
“Atlantic Dawn … is the greatest fish killing machine the world has ever seen.” – Charles Clover, The End of the Line. http://britishseafishing.co.uk/atlantic-dawn-the-ship-from-hell/
Thanks, Brietta.
All a bit fishy to me... not least the media portrayal of the issues.
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It started some time ago and according to John Lichfield's article had its genesis as a result of the outcome of the 'cod wars' with Norway and Iceland extending their territorial waters which excluded British trawlers from traditional fishing grounds.
Which led to British registered invasion of other territorial waters and scant regard for conservation. it's a very complicated business which will require a lot of unravelling and maybe the commissioning of a fleet of gun boats (that should give the shipyards a boost??).
Britain's fishy role in the quota-hopping scandal
Foreign vessels are legally taking a large chunk of the UK's fishing quota. But it is our own government's double-think and double-talk that is to blame rather than the minefield of EU rules, says John Lichfield
John Lichfield Saturday 21 December 1996
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/britains-fishy-role-in-the-quota-hopping-scandal-1315516.html
Atlantic Dawn: The Ship from Hell
“Atlantic Dawn … is the greatest fish killing machine the world has ever seen.” – Charles Clover, The End of the Line. http://britishseafishing.co.uk/atlantic-dawn-the-ship-from-hell/
Thank you for the links Brietta.
Not quite the version brxiters would like others to be aware of.
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Thank you for the links Brietta.
Not quite the version brxiters would like others to be aware of.
What the links seem to show is the lack of support by the British Government for the UK fishing industry and the support given by the Irish Government to the building of a super trawler. What either have to do with Brexit I can't quite work out.
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What the links seem to show is the lack of support by the British Government for the UK fishing industry and the support given by the Irish Government to the building of a super trawler. What either have to do with Brexit I can't quite work out.
What is shown, is the system is open to abuse.
Also, you can't just blame the EU for this mess, which Brexiters love to do.
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What is shown, is the system is open to abuse.
Also, you can't just blame the EU for this mess, which Brexiters love to do.
All systems are open to abuse.... and there's always a different perspective to consider. Whoever is right or wrong isn't always clearcut nor absolute.
An issue (for me, whatever the subject) is the role of some media outlets in the "heart v head" propaganda war.
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All systems are open to abuse.... and there's always a different perspective to consider. Whoever is right or wrong isn't always clearcut nor absolute.
An issue (for me, whatever the subject) is the role of some media outlets in the "heart v head" propaganda war.
I am in complete accord with what you said Carana.
What I have seen again and again, reminiscent of Orwell's Animal Farm; is the premise that British is good, and EU is bad.
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What is shown, is the system is open to abuse.
Also, you can't just blame the EU for this mess, which Brexiters love to do.
Every system is open to abuse. I don't know if Brexiters love to blame the EU; cite?
What seems clear to me is that Britain handed over around 4/5 of all the fish off Western Europe under the Common Fisheries Policy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Fisheries_Policy#Criticism
For that the EU and the British Government share the blame.
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Someone mentioned the issue of a massive Dutch trawler the other day.
I've tried to look into that.
That Dutch trawler, the Cornelis Vrolijk, flies under a UK flag and is registered in Hull.
I can understand the argument that fishermen perceived the situation to be unfair, but I still don't understand how the situation was the fault of the EU if a company in one country decides to set up a subsidiary in another country for commercial purposes.
You just forgot to mention the little fact that this trawler offloads all its catch of fish caught in British waters in Ijmuiden, an immense port near Amsterdam, Holland, for the benefit of the Dutch.
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/11/29/2399B30100000578-0-image-20_1417288221791.jpg)
Dutch super-trawler Cornelius Vrolijk (pictured) gets 23 per cent of the entire English fishing quota.
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What the links seem to show is the lack of support by the British Government for the UK fishing industry and the support given by the Irish Government to the building of a super trawler. What either have to do with Brexit I can't quite work out.
If one only retained the headline in the Daily Wail (not the only misleading outlet) in some recess of the brain's long-term memory centre, supported by "confirmation" in subsequent articles over the EU... :
EU lets one Dutch ship net A QUARTER of England's fishing quota ...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2821284/EU-lets-one-Dutch-ship-net-QUARTER-England-s-fishing-quota-Holland-holds-23-permits.html
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You just forgot to mention the little fact that this trawler offloads all its catch of fish caught in British waters in Ijmuiden, an immense port near Amsterdam, Holland, for the benefit of the Dutch.
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/11/29/2399B30100000578-0-image-20_1417288221791.jpg)
Dutch super-trawler Cornelius Vrolijk (pictured) gets 23 per cent of the entire English fishing quota.
Erm....
John, It might be worth reading the links to the articles that I posted... to the bottom.
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But Stewart Harper, managing director of the North Atlantic Fishing Company, the English subsidiary of the Dutch firm which owns the Cornelis Vrolijk, insisted there is no British market for the low-value fish he is selling abroad.
He added: ‘Although we are part of a Dutch-owned European group we operate two offices in the UK and we provide work for 55 British fishermen domiciled in the UK and eight people in our offices and have an annual wage bill in excess of £2million. We pay UK corporation tax on any profits we make and all of the other costs of UK establishment.’
A Defra spokesman said: ‘We value our local inshore fishing communities - in 2014 we increased their potential catch by 720 tonnes and continue to take steps to maximise use of the UK’s quota.
‘Any company applying to fish our quota must demonstrate a clear economic link to this country and all large UK flagged vessels, the great majority of which are UK crewed, make their catches in offshore waters that cannot be reached by local inshore fishermen.
‘We are currently working with devolved administrations on reviewing the economic value of all UK flagged vessels to ensure we get best value for our economy.’
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2821284/EU-lets-one-Dutch-ship-net-QUARTER-England-s-fishing-quota-Holland-holds-23-permits.html#ixzz4DpHqyPPn
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Small British fishing vessels make up 80 per cent of the English fleet - but have just 4 per cent of the quota.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2821284/EU-lets-one-Dutch-ship-net-QUARTER-England-s-fishing-quota-Holland-holds-23-permits.html#ixzz4DpINIlFq
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
When the vessel returns to port, cranes hoist the massive catch from the huge boat and dump it, box after box, on the dockside. This isn’t small fry. Its latest 2,500-ton catch was worth about £500,000.
As I watched this process a few days ago, there was no doubt I was observing an impressive example of industrialised fishing.
Beside me, lorries lined up to take away piles of packed fish. Each took 26-ton cargos, destined to end up in the markets and shops of Egypt, Nigeria and Japan. ‘None of it goes to Europe,’ said one driver.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2854348/One-Dutch-trawler-gets-quarter-England-s-entire-fish-quota-English-fishermen-allowed-two-crates-worth-50.html#ixzz4DpMKFi6n
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
Crucially, when Britain negotiated entry to Europe, it won a poor deal that allowed French fleets, for instance, to take a far larger slice of stocks in the Channel.
Moreover, small-scale vessels – those under ten metres (30ft) in length – did not have to record landings at the time.
So although making up more than three-quarters of the British fishing fleet, they were belatedly given just four per cent of the national quota.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2854348/One-Dutch-trawler-gets-quarter-England-s-entire-fish-quota-English-fishermen-allowed-two-crates-worth-50.html#ixzz4DpMey9gu
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
Erm, yes, SMALL fishing boats. However, the UK has 13% of the EU sea space, but has 30% of the quota.
How are these small businesses going to survive?
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"...The 5,000 small boats operated by the traditional UK fishing families are increasingly marginalised – holding just 4 per cent of the entire UK quota between them."
A question (and I don't have the answer). I'm wondering if mackerel, herring, scad and blue whiting are normally trawled close to shore by small fishing boats.
One article, to which I can no longer easily locate the link, stated (or certainly intimated, from memory) that the this behemoth trawled (and processed) deep sea fish. If that's accurate, and if it is accurate that different types of fish are subject to different quota calculations, then it would be misleading to make a blanket statement that this trawler snatched up much of the quota on all fish / crustaceans.
The Wiki entry doesn't fully answer my question:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Fisheries_Policy
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The scaremongering continues.
Yes it goes on and on... EU countries have recieved heavy subsidies not only with fishing but look at the french farmers- unfair competition!
Looking at the EU... or you could look beyond it like Russia, China, Japan, Australasia, Africa and Canada...oh wow the world looks bigger. massive markets to tap into! We need a strong government and a suportive, hard working, people we need out pride back and get that fighting mentality back. Get the PC brigade and the scroungers an island to waft about in.
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Yes it goes on and on... EU countries have recieved heavy subsidies not only with fishing but look at the french farmers- unfair competition!
Looking at the EU... or you could look beyond it like Russia, China, Japan, Australasia, Africa and Canada...oh wow the world looks bigger. massive markets to tap into! We need a strong government and a suportive, hard working, people we need out pride back and get that fighting mentality back. Get the PC brigade and the scroungers an island to waft about in.
Tap into? There is already established trade with them.
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Tap into? There is already established trade with them.
Oh I was under the impression we were all going to die because we voted brexit and everything we do depended on EU....TSK silly me. Yeah we can do more business with those countries, isn't that lovely... and begin to think about being self sufficient in food production.
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Oh I was under the impression we were all going to die because we voted brexit and everything we do depended on EU....TSK silly me. Yeah we can do more business with those countries, isn't that lovely... and begin to think about being self sufficient in food production.
A small island nation self-sufficient in food production? Try explaining that one to anyone who lived through WW2 and didn't go through immense hardship...
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I am in complete accord with what you said Carana.
What I have seen again and again, reminiscent of Orwell's Animal Farm; is the premise that British is good, and EU is bad.
Stephen , a lot of Brexits are not happy with EU and UK governments we want a change of how we are governed this is a start...
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A small island nation self-sufficient in food production? Try explaining that one to anyone who lived through WW2 and didn't go through immense hardship...
The immense hardship was mainly due to spending money on war.
It can be done, we have the means to do it... and not forgetting we still have other countries for importing and exporting 8((()*/
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The immense hardship was mainly due to spending money on war.
It can be done, we have the means to do it... and not forgetting we still have other countries for importing and exporting 8((()*/
Have you examined the economics of the options?
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The immense hardship was mainly due to spending money on war.
It can be done, we have the means to do it... and not forgetting we still have other countries for importing and exporting 8((()*/
Food production isn't the only issue....
Let's look at even electricity (the magic that enables a lightbulb to work).
Imports
The UK electricity network is connected to systems in France, the Netherlands and Ireland through cables called interconnectors. The UK uses these to import or export electricity when it is most economical. In 2015, the UK was a net importer from France and the Netherlands with net imports of 13.8 TWh and 8.0 TWh respectively which accounted for 5.8 per cent of electricity supplied in 2015. Total net exports to Ireland amounted to 0.9 TWh.
http://www.energy-uk.org.uk/energy-industry/electricity-generation.html
I can't see the rest of Europe suddenly forcing the UK into forced black-out hours, but if trade agreements can't be worked out, and if the supply is subject to tariffs or other complications, then the cost is likely to go up, don't you think?
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This thread was only examining the impact on the fishing industry... not even the whole of the agricultural industry, let alone the needs in terms of infrastructural support, or related imports / exports.
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This thread was only examining the impact on the fishing industry... not even the whole of the agricultural industry, let alone the needs in terms of infrastructural support, or related imports / exports.
Sorry i'm sure Carana... fishing industry regardless of what you say did die a death in the North East. Fishermen were told what days they could fish, and had to throw back...all the while when their boats were tied up EU boats were doing their thing.. all's fair in..erm...
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Sorry i'm sure Carana... fishing industry regardless of what you say did die a death in the North East. Fishermen were told what days they could fish, and had to throw back...all the while when their boats were tied up EU boats were doing their thing.. all's fair in..erm...
If you mean the "discard" issue, that applies to everyone, not just the UK.
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If you mean the "discard" issue, that applies to everyone, not just the UK.
Hahaha avoiding the tied up boats issue... yes but who is policing them in their countires?
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Hahaha avoiding the tied up boats issue... yes but who is policing them in their countires?
This is not a very long thread, MTI. I'm not sure where you get your information from.
I have posted quite a few links for background reading...
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Hahaha avoiding the tied up boats issue... yes but who is policing them in their countires?
If you could post reliable cites, then perhaps we could examine this further...
It's entirely possible that boats were not allowed to go out for a variety of reasons.
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Erm....
John, It might be worth reading the links to the articles that I posted... to the bottom.
I read the links twice now Carana but can see nothing to justify the way our fishermen have been treated. I accept the fault lies not only with the EU Bureaucrats but by incompetent British Gov officials. Our small time fishermen in particular have suffered great hardship as a result of being a member of the EU. Forced to tie up their boats five days a week or even sell them to the very same foreigners who were putting them out of business.
Brexit will bring this farce to an end and about time too! Time to take back control of our own fishing industry!
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I read the links twice now Carana but can see nothing to justify the way our fishermen have been treated. I accept the fault lies not only with the EU Bureaucrats but by incompetent British Gov officials. Our small time fishermen in particular have suffered great hardship as a result of being a member of the EU.
Brexit will bring this farce to an end and about time too!
John, aren't you involved in farming in Scotland? Or were? Or know someone who is / was?
If so, how will the lack of EU subsidies affect you? Or won't they?
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I read the links twice now Carana but can see nothing to justify the way our fishermen have been treated. I accept the fault lies not only with the EU Bureaucrats but by incompetent British Gov officials. Our small time fishermen in particular have suffered great hardship as a result of being a member of the EU. Forced to tie up their boats five days a week or even sell them to the very same foreigners who were putting them out of business.
Brexit will bring this farce to an end and about time too! Time to take back control of our own fishing industry!
..and what if that is just a pipe dream and nothing actually changes.
Just remember the Cod war.
As I recall, Iceland won that too.
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This is not a very long thread, MTI. I'm not sure where you get your information from.
I have posted quite a few links for background reading...
My information is from the mouths of people who have been directly affected. Sorry if that upsets your stats and other information but I can only discuss these issues on a discussion forum which asks these questions or ar ein denial of actual facts. After telling me to stick to the 'fishing' part of the thread you then went on to ask John about farming- ? anyway the other fact about farming is land being set aside against farmers needs to grow what hey are told to grow! too many directives from EU. The French farmers are the most heavily subsidised group in the EU. The other little gem in this is using EU subsidies to 'help' the fishing industry for larger companies to employ Africans and non EU citizens to work cheaper... oh so where is the benefit to the EU tax payers subsidising wealthy bosses and their cheap non EU labour?...
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..and what if that is just a pipe dream and nothing actually changes.
Just remember the Cod war.
As I recall, Iceland won that too.
It will all change post Brexit for the fishing industry and fishermen are unanimous in heralding-in the new soon to be EU-free era.
Reading back through the posts I have never seen so many apologists making excuses for the EU. The EU has wrecked our fishing industry...end off! There are no excuses for what they did and to think we allowed it! Jeez
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It will all change post Brexit for the fishing industry and fishermen are unanimous in heralding-in the new soon to be EU-free era.
Reading back through the posts I have never seen so many apologists making excuses for the EU. The EU has wrecked our fishing industry...end off! There are no excuses for what they did and to think we allowed it! Jeez
Dreamland.
The EU has not wrecked our fishing industry.
Just another myth.
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Dreamland.
The EU has not wrecked our fishing industry.
Just another myth.
seems like the president of the scottish federation disagrees with you ..and he should know
The president of the Scottish Fishermen’s Federation, Ross Dougal, told the Scottish affairs select committee that the majority of his members were in favour of leaving the European Union, prompted by “micro-management and top-down management” of the controversial common fisheries policy. The majority of the industry are “no fans” of the EU, having suffered cuts to quotas and fishing time under the common fisheries policy.
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seems like the president of the scottish federation disagrees with you ..and he should know
The president of the Scottish Fishermen’s Federation, Ross Dougal, told the Scottish affairs select committee that the majority of his members were in favour of leaving the European Union, prompted by “micro-management and top-down management” of the controversial common fisheries policy. The majority of the industry are “no fans” of the EU, having suffered cuts to quotas and fishing time under the common fisheries policy.
I agree, it isn't rocket science. The UK had a sustainable fishing industry for a millennium before some foreigner drempt up the idea of a Treaty of Rome and a Common Market, thereafter morphing into the EU.
Fishermen by tradition know their fishing grounds better than anyone else, they know if stocks are being depleted and what to do about it . They don't need any jobsworth from Brussels telling them how to suck eggs...I am soooooo pleased for them now we are getting out of this f....g madhouse of an corrupt wasteful organisation.
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Dreamland.
The EU has not wrecked our fishing industry.
Just another myth.
Ask a fisherman Stephen.
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Ask a fisherman Stephen.
You seem to imply that UK fishermen have the right to fish where they wish and sod everyone else.
Do you want a repeat of the cod war ?
Whatever happens negotiations will have to be made.
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You seem to imply that UK fishermen have the right to fish where they wish and sod everyone else.
Do you want a repeat of the cod war ?
Whatever happens negotiations will have to be made.
Well, yes, I'm also scratching my head about the idea that once out of the EU everything will somehow go magically swimmingly well...
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Well, yes, I'm also scratching my head about the idea that once out of the EU everything will somehow go magically swimmingly well...
no one has said things will go swimmingly well...its unlike you to misrepresent posters. Most of us hope things will be better and are unhappy with the way the EU is heading....Italy looks like the next basket case. like a lot of things in life it may be difficult at first but better in the medium to long term
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no one has said things will go swimmingly well...its unlike you to misrepresent posters. Most of us hope things will be better and are unhappy with the way the EU is heading....Italy looks like the next basket case. like a lot of things in life it may be difficult at first but better in the medium to long term
I was thinking in general terms of what the media has presented as "facts".
There would appear to be facts and lies (on both sides), plus a certain amount of exaggeration (half-truths).
There would also appear to be a certain amount of massaging the truth by airbrushing out whatever isn't "convenient".
Hmmm. Now where have I seen that phenomenon before? &%+((£
Personally, I prefer to examine the issues (on both sides) as presented on fullfact.org , for example.
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I DO happen to feel that this is a scary time, a bit akin to being part of an international space crew mission and waking up landed on the Planet of the Apes with no working button to contact anyone back on Planet Earth.
On the other hand, I have looked into alternative models (Norway, Switzerland) of EU trade... and I just can't see what the positive trade-off might be (not impossible... but I'm having trouble fathoming how it would all work).
And, IMO, it's not just about industrial trade.
If someone in government who actually knows what they're talking about, instead of waffling about unspecified "opportunities", could actually be a teensy-weensy bit more specific, I'd be happy to listen.
NB I should have specified: amongst those who haven't yet abandoned the control towers for a wake / celebration (delete as appropriate).
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I was thinking in general terms of what the media has presented as "facts".
There would appear to be facts and lies (on both sides), plus a certain amount of exaggeration (half-truths).
There would also appear to be a certain amount of massaging the truth by airbrushing out whatever isn't "convenient".
Hmmm. Now where have I seen that phenomenon before? &%+((£
Personally, I prefer to examine the issues (on both sides) as presented on fullfact.org , for example.
I think there is more to it than full fact realise...take free movement of labour. Any EU citizen who comes here is entitled to tax credits and benefits even if their family is not in the UK. They are also entitled to benefits if they do not work. Simple free movement of labour may not be such a problem if we did not have to give all the benefits that go with it
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A bit of light relief.... 8(0(*
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DohRa9lsx0Q
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I think there is more to it than full fact realise...take free movement of labour. Any EU citizen who comes here is entitled to tax credits and benefits even if their family is not in the UK. They are also entitled to benefits if they do not work. Simple free movement of labour may not be such a problem if we did not have to give all the benefits that go with it
Where did this "emergency brake" negotiation end up? Was it rejected? Accepted? Pending a bit more lower-back scratching?
I haven't had time to check up on it.
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Well, yes, I'm also scratching my head about the idea that once out of the EU everything will somehow go magically swimmingly well...
Well, it didn't go swimmingy well when we joined - prices were immediently hiked, our currency was changed to align with the rest of the other countries, no more pounds shillings and pence, we also had to change our measurements...it all started bad and got worse- and we should have left there and then! the sh!t hit the fan. According to my relatives> NO ONE in my family voted for it and told of stories which has come true! it did affect my two uncles fishing fleets and it did affect my neighbours and cousins farming, and it did affect the local NHS budget the money was directed else where...social inclusion to reach out to minorities. non jobs to talk nice to people who came here for ....
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Well, it didn't go swimmingy well when we joined - prices were immediently hiked, our currency was changed to align with the rest of the other countries, no more pounds shillings and pence, we also had to change our measurements...it all started bad and got worse- and we should have left there and then! the sh!t hit the fan. According to my relatives> NO ONE in my family voted for it and told of stories which has come true! it did affect my two uncles fishing fleets and it did affect my neighbours and cousins farming, and it did affect the local NHS budget the money was directed else where...social inclusion to reach out to minorities. non jobs to talk nice to people who came here for ....
As far as I am aware nobody in the UK voted to join the EU, us having been co-opted into it by the back door. It must one of the worst disasters ever to plague this country.
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As far as I am aware nobody in the UK voted to join the EU, us having been co-opted into it by the back door. It must one of the worst disasters ever to plague this country.
So tell me Angelo, how have you suffered ?
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Well, yes, I'm also scratching my head about the idea that once out of the EU everything will somehow go magically swimmingly well...
Would you rather stay in then?
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So tell me Angelo, how have you suffered ?
The entire country has suffered with inflated Euro prices and tariffs imposed on worldwide imports. Our entire economy has been manipulated to benefit poor undeveloped sods of eastern Europe.
What benefit has the EU brought to you Stephen since you are so quick to defend it?
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The entire country has suffered with inflated Euro prices and tariffs imposed on worldwide imports. Our entire economy has been manipulated to benefit poor undeveloped sods of eastern Europe.
You can cite that I presume ?
What of the over-inflated prices, say from America and that goes back before the EU/EEC ?
Likewise , what of the other countries in the EU, and the prices they pay ?
Do you remember the link I gave on that a few weeks ago ?
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You can cite that I presume ?
What of the over-inflated prices, say from America and that goes back before the EU/EEC ?
Likewise , what of the other countries in the EU, and the prices they pay ?
Do you remember the link I gave on that a few weeks ago ?
Have you never been outside London in your entire life because it is certainly beginning to look like it. I suggest you take a trip to the regions and visit a few former fishing ports, you might learn something.
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Have you never been outside London in your entire life because it is certainly beginning to look like it. I suggest you take a trip to the regions and visit a few former fishing ports, you might learn something.
Yes I have, so don't make assumptions.
You seem to think it is a divine right that the UK fishing industry can do what it wishes.
Are you a Keynesian or a Free-Marketer ?
Fish by the way are a resource to be shared.
Did you even know that the UK is 37th in the list of consumers of fish ?
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Yes I have, so don't make assumptions.
You seem to think it is a divine right that the UK fishing industry can do what it wishes.
Are you a Keynesian or a Free-Marketer ?
Fish by the way are a resource to be shared.
Did you even know that the UK is 37th in the list of consumers of fish ?
I think fishermen in each country can fish their own waters- is that not what is done outside the EU? yes I think it is. The fact that we don't consume all our fish is a moot point because we have the right to trade and sell it to those who do. Like we consume and buy bananas etc.
Sharing a resource is all well and good do the EU coutries share their wheat? meat? rice? or do they sell it to us?
And is it right that some countries have more access to our fish than we have?> you see your family standing by their fishing boats watching other fishermen from other countries land their catch and sell to your fish dealers..oh sorry they don't sell they 'share' it with us absolutely free.
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Yes I have, so don't make assumptions.
You seem to think it is a divine right that the UK fishing industry can do what it wishes.
Are you a Keynesian or a Free-Marketer ?
Fish by the way are a resource to be shared.
Did you even know that the UK is 37th in the list of consumers of fish ?
Go out and ask a fisherman instead of quoting rubbish from non entities who never caught a fish in their lives.
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I think fishermen in each country can fish their own waters- is that not what is done outside the EU? yes I think it is. The fact that we don't consume all our fish is a moot point because we have the right to trade and sell it to those who do. Like we consume and buy bananas etc.
Sharing a resource is all well and good do the EU coutries share their wheat? meat? rice? or do they sell it to us?
And is it right that some countries have more access to our fish than we have?> you see your family standing by their fishing boats watching other fishermen from other countries land their catch and sell to your fish dealers..oh sorry they don't sell they 'share' it with us absolutely free.
Stephen's share suggestion would go down like a lead balloon in Iceland, Greenland and Norway. Rightly, British fishermen are entitled to fish British waters and once we get Brexit out the way they will do so once again.
And then maybe we can have cod in our fish suppers once more at a price which won't break the bank. And ports with active fishing boats in them manned by British crews landing our fish from our seas. No more flags of convenience and no more foreign fish pirates with their factory ships. Time to take back control!!
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Go out and ask a fisherman instead of quoting rubbish from non entities who never caught a fish in their lives.
How do I know you have spoken to fishermen ?
Try answering my points.
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I think fishermen in each country can fish their own waters- is that not what is done outside the EU? yes I think it is. The fact that we don't consume all our fish is a moot point because we have the right to trade and sell it to those who do. Like we consume and buy bananas etc.
Sharing a resource is all well and good do the EU coutries share their wheat? meat? rice? or do they sell it to us?
And is it right that some countries have more access to our fish than we have?> you see your family standing by their fishing boats watching other fishermen from other countries land their catch and sell to your fish dealers..oh sorry they don't sell they 'share' it with us absolutely free.
Most fish migrate, you are aware of that, aren't you ?
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Most fish migrate, you are aware of that, aren't you ?
That is why different fish are caught at different times of the year in the UK as any fisherman would tell you.
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That is why different fish are caught at different times of the year in the UK as any fisherman would tell you.
YOU AMAZE ME.
I never knew that. @)(++(* @)(++(*
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How do I know you have spoken to fishermen ?
Try answering my points.
My family come from Aberdeen. WE know all too well the misery... and yes fish migrate, except the ones caught 8(0(*
that is why we have fishing seasons. 8(>((
Salmon come back and forth from Canada. 8**8:/:
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Sorry, but I know that already.
Next.
You knew about the misery in Aberdeen? oh why ask us to tell you how we are affected the... ppft lol
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You knew about the misery in Aberdeen? oh why ask us to tell you how we are affected the... ppft lol
I was referring to the fish migrating.
Now do you have a cite about misery in Aberdeen ?
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I was referring to the fish migrating.
Now do you have a cite about misery in Aberdeen ?
I would have to research, but you can do that yourself. but lets just say it was the real cause of the independance for Scotland dmand came and the rise of the SNP in the 70's which triggered it off.
So Stephen what is it about an unelected bunch in the EU that atracts you to this type of dictatorship?
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I would have to research, but you can do that yourself. but lets just say it was the real cause of the independance for Scotland dmand came and the rise of the SNP in the 70's which triggered it off.
So Stephen what is it about an unelected bunch in the EU that atracts you to this type of dictatorship?
Which unelected officials are you referring to ?
Would that be like the unelected officials who work for the civil service in this country, and who really run it
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Yes I have, so don't make assumptions.
You seem to think it is a divine right that the UK fishing industry can do what it wishes.
Are you a Keynesian or a Free-Marketer ?
Fish by the way are a resource to be shared.
Did you even know that the UK is 37th in the list of consumers of fish ?
The U.K. Exports a lot of fish
Did you not realise that
Fish in British Coastal waters should not be shared
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The U.K. Exports a lot of fish
Did you not realise that
Fish in British Coastal waters should not be shared
It's not as simple as that, though. Part of the UK catch comes from waters beyond the UK's EEZ.
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If the fishermen of Scotland are so miserable why did their county overhwhelmingly vote to remain in the EU? Do their fellow countrymen not care about their fishing heritage and the well-being of their fisher-folk?
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If the fishermen of Scotland are so miserable why did their county overhwhelmingly vote to remain in the EU? Do their fellow countrymen not care about their fishing heritage and the well-being of their fisher-folk?
Maybe you hadn't noticed but a hell of a lot of Scots voted to get out of the EU. No doubt every fishing family in the country voted for Brexit so your argument is without any foundation.
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Maybe you hadn't noticed but a hell of a lot of Scots voted to get out of the EU. No doubt every fishing family in the country voted for Brexit so your argument is without any foundation.
However, a lot more voted to stay in.
So you can cite for all these fishing families voting out ?
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However, a lot more voted to stay in.
So you can cite for all these fishing families voting out ?
Use some common sense for once.
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Use some common sense for once.
Practice what you preach and keep off the rhetoric.
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Maybe you hadn't noticed but a hell of a lot of Scots voted to get out of the EU. No doubt every fishing family in the country voted for Brexit so your argument is without any foundation.
More Scots voted to remain than leave so by your logic the Scottish people's choice is to keep EU fishing regulations.
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More Scots voted to remain than leave so by your logic the Scottish people's choice is to keep EU fishing regulations.
I think you will find that most voters in Scotland don't fish for a living.
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I think you will find that most voters in Scotland don't fish for a living.
Do you fish for a living?
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I think the British fishing industry is in good hands now that Brexit will definitely be happening. I am quite sure fishing families are gearing up already to take their rightful place once these stupid EU laws and rules are once and for all consigned to the dustbin.
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I think the British fishing industry is in good hands now that Brexit will definitely be happening. I am quite sure fishing families are gearing up already to take their rightful place once these stupid EU laws and rules are once and for all consigned to the dustbin.
Stupid rules ?
Conserving fish stocks ?
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I think the British fishing industry is in good hands now that Brexit will definitely be happening. I am quite sure fishing families are gearing up already to take their rightful place once these stupid EU laws and rules are once and for all consigned to the dustbin.
Do you think that the UK (or whatever may be left of it) should also retire from the UN?
The United Nations Agreement for the Implementation of the Provisions of the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea of 10 December 1982 relating to the Conservation and Management of Straddling Fish Stocks and Highly Migratory Fish Stocks (in force as from 11 December 2001) Overview
Last updated 31 July 2013
http://www.un.org/depts/los/convention_agreements/convention_overview_fish_stocks.htm
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What's more important the 'UK's lost fishing industry' or the circa one billion sterling UK scientists received from EU programs which post Brexit the conditions of UK-EU collaboration will have to be entirely renegotiated?
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/7059b00c-23fa-11e6-9d4d-c11776a5124d.html#axzz4EDjHJn00
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A little bit of history:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cod_Wars
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Scottish fishermen react to Brexit vote
One of Scotland’s most Eurosceptic industries has reacted to the UK vote to leave the European Union.
A poll ahead of the referendum from Aberdeen University showed 95% of fishermen across the UK would vote to leave the EU.
That’s after years of struggling with the European Commission on catch allocations for fishing stocks, and other Common Fisheries Policy measures like the landing obligation (or discards ban).
The Fishing for Leave campaign had argued a Brexit vote would mean the UK got a seat at the negotiating table for quota allocations, as Norway and the Faroe Islands do during discussion with the EU.
Bertie Armstrong, chief executive of the Scottish Fishermen’s Federation, said: “The result of the referendum brings both opportunities and challenges for the fishing industry and the Scottish Fishermen’s Federation will be doing everything in its power to ensure that the best possible deal is achieved for fishing during the exit negotiations.
“To aid this process, it is vital that we have clarity from both the UK and Scottish Governments on their future intentions for fishing.
“Our national governments must work closely with the industry over the coming months and years to ensure that the right framework is put in place to deliver a prosperous future.”
http://www.originalfm.com/scottish-fishermen-react-to-brexit-vote/
I still don't quite get it.
Fishermen had been wrangling over quotas and the discards issue.
Ok. Got that. Except that the discard ban has existed since Jan 1 2014 via the CFP reform.
I can understand the gripes with the old CFP (the perception - probably quite valid - that it was run by a bunch of unelected bureaucrats in the Commission, but that has substantially changed now.
The 2013 reform led to a greater role for the European Parliament, involving the convening of a trilateral dialogue (or ‘trilogue’) between the European Council, European Commission and the Parliament, to work towards general agreement on reforming the CFP.[26]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Fisheries_Policy
In their view, Brexit would mean that they'd have more say on quotas via some form of future UK - EU bilateral agreement, citing the example of Norway and Iceland.
Yes, ok, both Norway and Iceland have the right to be consulted, but they can't vote.
Hmm... Whatever agreement they reach, it would still have to be in line with the CFP and UN conventions, though.
The latest agreement between Norway and the EU was swopping a bit of blue whiting for a bit of cod fished in each other's waters.
http://ec.europa.eu/fisheries/cfp/international/agreements/norway/doc/2016-agreed-record-eu-norway-north-sea-supplement-01-2016.pdf
The UK wouldn't be eligible for EU subsidies, so the UK would have to fork out. I can see John's point about cutting out the middleman, but both Iceland and Norway still pay substantial contributions to the EU budget as EFTA members. If the UK rejoined EFTA (which might have advantages), the UK would have to do so as well, in which case I don't see where the money for subsidies would come from.
I'm therefore still mystified as to what the advantages would actually be...
A bit more reading:
http://ec.europa.eu/fisheries/cfp/index_en.htm
http://www.eu-norway.org/eu/norway_and_the_eu/#.V4WkW47w4Uw
http://www.eeas.europa.eu/delegations/iceland/eu_iceland/political_relations/index_en.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Free_Trade_Association
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If the fishermen of Scotland are so miserable why did their county overwhelmingly vote to remain in the EU? Do their fellow countrymen not care about their fishing heritage and the well-being of their fisher-folk?
Some were more terrified by Nichola Sturgeon telling them that the Nasty Tories would come back to power and that seemed to have worked for the 'Irish immigrants second/third generation people, who also voted to leave the UK.
I found that whole episode to be strange people wanted not to be ruled by England because they didn't vote for English government, but want to stay in the EU where any vote doesn't matter never mind count!. We have a strong Irish settlement in the central belt. They used to be a minority....Hahahahahah
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Fish and chips.
https://twitter.com/remkorteweg/status/1065173307769700353
I've never tried roll mops and chips...
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Fish and chips.
https://twitter.com/remkorteweg/status/1065173307769700353
I've never tried roll mops and chips...
Well in Scandawegia it's a case of "it you don't like dead herrings and meat balls you will likely starve" 8(0(*
1001 things to do with a dead herring; 1002 if you eat it!
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Well in Scandawegia it's a case of "it you don't like dead herrings and meat balls you will likely starve" 8(0(*
1001 things to do with a dead herring; 1002 if you eat it!
I actually like roll mops and herring with mustard sauce, and anything smörgåsbord-ish. But I can't see it with... chips.
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I actually like roll mops and herring with mustard sauce, and anything smörgåsbord-ish. But I can't see it with... chips.
Nor I. I used to eat roll mops as a delicacy but have not had one for years.
The Turks however see us a nation who have icecream or vinegar with everything. Well in the village of Hisaranu about 25 years ago they did. They took the Mickey Bliss out of me for drinking raki because they reckoned they used it to strip varnish off boat hulls! Good fun!
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Nor I. I used to eat roll mops as a delicacy but have not had one for years.
The Turks however see us a nation who have icecream or vinegar with everything. Well in the village of Hisaranu about 25 years ago they did. They took the Mickey Bliss out of me for drinking raki because they reckoned they used it to strip varnish off boat hulls! Good fun!
One of the few things that can drag me to IKEA is their herring in dill and mustard. No one else in my family likes it, nor in my circle of friends, barring the Scandis - who inevitably say home-made is better.
I really like retsina, no one else I know does, though. lol
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Here's a joke. How is it that any migrants found in the North Sea are ours, but the fish are the EU's?
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Here's a joke. How is it that any migrants found in the North Sea are ours, but the fish are the EU's?
What's the punchline?
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What's the punchline?
*%87
The immigrants are in the sea as well as the fish, but we can only claim the immigrants.. oh ^*&&
I have a strong feeling many communities will pull together - well away from the Scottish central belt it is past saving- to reclaim their way of life.
Tricky Nicky doesn't share my view but she is an EU sss licker. She tel the Scottish electorate tthat Brexit wil be hell on earth - giving figures pulled out of a 5th year's calculator to mention all our industry will dissapear, but feels we need to increase the population to do jobs Scots don't want? She announced that Scotland needs many thousands immigrants .Oh... right..
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I've found it interesting to re-read through this 5-year old thread.
Now that Brexit is officially "done", how is all this newly-found "sovereignty" helping the fishing industry?
The Impact Of Brexit Is Being Felt Across Britain — Down To Oysters, Wine And Cheese
April 2, 2021 4:00 PM ET
Heard on All Things Considered
Frank Langfitt
Frank Langfitt
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7-Minute Listen
Now that the U.K. has severed its final links with the EU, the effects of Brexit are starting to be felt across Britain — down to oysters, wine and cheese.
AILSA CHANG, HOST:
Prime Minister Boris Johnson pledged that the U.K. would prosper mightily by leaving the European Union.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)
PRIME MINISTER BORIS JOHNSON: Brexit means Brexit, and we are going to make a titanic - a titanic success of it. So thank you.
CHANG: But for British food importers and exporters, Brexit so far feels like hitting an iceberg. Just three months in, it has raised their costs and threatened their businesses.
NPR's Frank Langfitt traveled through England and Wales for The Indicator, Planet Money's daily economics podcast, to see how Brexit is affecting oysters, wine and cheese.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)
JONATHAN BAILEY: Going to get very, very wet. This isn't leaks (ph). This is just rainwater.
FRANK LANGFITT, BYLINE: It's just rainwater.
BAILEY: Yeah.
LANGFITT: It's a drizzling cold morning in Cornwall in southwest England, and I'm helping Jonathan Bailey bail out his rowboat. Jonathan's an oyster fishermen, but these days, his oyster boat mostly sits anchored offshore.
So since Brexit, how many times have you been out?
BAILEY: Not very many.
LANGFITT: That's because leaving the European Union has triggered environmental rules that make it much harder for British fishermen like Jonathan to sell oysters to Europe, which is pretty much his entire market, leaving him and more than 40 fishermen and women around here mostly out of work this season. I asked how this might affect them in the long run.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)
BAILEY: I'm 66. I'm wondering whether this is the moment to say, the end.
LANGFITT: How would you feel about not fishing anymore?
BAILEY: I would be very, very, very, very upset.
LANGFITT: To understand just how Brexit is crushing oyster exports, I met Martin Laity, who owns Sailor's Creek Shellfish. He's been buying and exporting Jonathan's catch for three decades.
MARTIN LAITY: We sell our oysters - or did - to Brittany and to French merchants. They sell it under the Breton or Normandy flag.
LANGFITT: Before Brexit, when the U.K. was inside the European Union, Martin seamlessly shipped his oysters to Europe, where they were cleaned to remove the pollutants from the English waters. But now, because the U.K. is outside of the EU, British oysters have to be cleaned here before they go to Europe. Now, this doesn't sound like a big deal, but if you're in the oyster business, it is because it adds costs. And as soon as oysters are cleaned, Martin says there's just 48 hours to get them on the plates in Europe before they spoil.
LAITY: We'll be writing a lot credit notes for mortalities. This week we've got 10% mortality.
LANGFITT: Which means Martin loses hundreds of dollars per shipment in dead oysters. This and other changes because of Brexit have hurt the fish and shellfish business. British Treasury figures show the sector's exports to the EU fell by about 80% in January year on year.
LAITY: Our turnover's dropped 97%. I mean, we can't go on for eight months like this. We've laid off all our staff, our drivers.
LANGFITT: The government has blamed the steep fall in food and drink exports to the EU on pre-Brexit stockpiling, COVID restrictions and businesses adjusting to the new trade relationship. British officials say volumes are already rebounding, and Boris Johnson has called disruption in the fish trade teething problems and says the government will compensate businesses when it's not their fault.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)
JOHNSON: But being no doubt there are great opportunities for fishermen across the whole of the U.K. to take advantage of the spectacular marine wealth of the United Kingdom.
LANGFITT: Brexit isn't just clobbering shellfish exporters like Martin. It's also created a mountain of paperwork for wine importers like Daniel Lambert.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)
DANIEL LAMBERT: So this is our little warehouse.
LANGFITT: Daniel brings in tens of thousands of cases of European wine each year. In the good old days, which was just a few months ago, Daniel says importing was easy.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)
LAMBERT: We used to just have to do one set of paperwork - very, very simple indeed.
LANGFITT: But now, because the U.K.'s outside the EU, there's a lot more.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)
LAMBERT: I have to send the order to the producer. The producer then produces a pro forma invoice, which they send back to me. On the pro forma invoice...
LANGFITT: Daniel went on for more than a minute, describing the avalanche of confusing forms of rules. The cost of each new set of paperwork ranges from 38 to $90.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)
LANGFITT: So on a scale of one to 10, how much are you enjoying this new system?
LAMBERT: (Laughter) About zero.
LANGFITT: Daniel says some small retailers won't be able to afford the new paperwork, so they'll order fewer varieties of wine. And some of these admin costs will be passed on to consumers.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)
LAMBERT: The cost of a bottle of wine, I can see at the moment, you're talking nearly two bucks on a bottle.
LANGFITT: And they'll have less choice.
LAMBERT: Correct, but that's Brexit.
LANGFITT: When the U.K. voted to leave the EU in 2016, it meant walking away from an exclusive trading club, giving up free access to a market of more than 500 million consumers. Brexiteers told businesses at the time they'd still enjoy unfettered access to European markets, but David Henig, a London-based trade analyst, says the problems businesses now face were entirely predictable.
DAVID HENIG: This is normal in global trade that there are such checks and balances. What was abnormal was the U.K.'s previous relationship with the EU, the nature of that integrated market, and then the U.K. leaving it. The lesson from Brexit is, you can't have your cake and eat it.
LANGFITT: What U.K. business sectors are doing well from Brexit?
HENIG: There will be isolated winners in this, but in general, there will be more losers. We're seeing the stories of people struggling, not the stories of people managing to find new opportunities.
LANGFITT: But some savvy businessmen have found ways to turn Brexit problems to their advantage, at least for now. Simon Spurrell runs the Cheshire Cheese Company in northwest England. Here he is introducing me to his cows at milking time.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)
SIMON SPURRELL: The cows have a very nice life. They're normally out wandering the 200 acres of fields around here, pastures to wander around all day. So it's lovely.
(SOUNDBITE OF COW MOOING)
LANGFITT: Simon used to export cheese to Europe smoothly and cheaply. But now, because of Brexit, he has to pay 250 bucks for a veterinary certificate for each order of cheese, which he says it's going to cost him $350,000 in lost sales this year. Simon shared his troubles on Twitter, and his countrymen came to his rescue. They started buying his cheese like never before. And in the first two months of this year, Simon's U.K. cheese sales went up 900%.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)
SPURRELL: We've actually ended up with a surge of nationalistic cheese-buying frenzy there.
LANGFITT: How long do you think that'll last?
SPURRELL: I can't see this being a sustainable model. We can't keep shouting every single week, buy British, buy British.
LANGFITT: Back in Cornwall, Martin Laity, the seafood wholesaler, is adapting, too.
LAITY: We made some big adjustments to our business to sell more and more in the U.K. We started dreaming about ideas of having a local food market. We started thinking about selling more direct to the public.
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Have a nice one (ph).
LAITY: Thanks very much.
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: That's all right.
LANGFITT: This is Martin's Saturday market. Right over here, he's selling scallops and mussels - next to it, some fish. We have pastries, fresh bread here, vegetables.
But no matter how much Martin sells at his new market, it can't come close to making up for what he's lost in Europe. Martin says three months in, Brexit is a cautionary tale.
LAITY: Let it be a lesson to every nation on the planet. This is a cockup beyond belief. And there's more to come. What we're going through now is just the beginning of the beginning.
LANGFITT: Frank Langfitt, NPR News, Cornwall, England.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
https://www.npr.org/2021/04/02/983925042/the-impact-of-brexit-is-being-felt-across-britain-down-to-oysters-wine-and-chees
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UK and Norway fail to reach fishing deal
By Justin Parkinson
Political reporter, BBC News
Published
12 hours ago
The UK and Norway have failed to reach a fishing deal for this year, with the industry warning that hundreds of crew members will be left out of work.
It means UK fleets will have no access to Norway's sub-Arctic waters, known for their cod catches.
The government said its "fair offer" had been rejected in talks.
The firm UK Fisheries called it a "disgrace", saying fishermen in Hull would be particularly badly affected by the lack of progress.
In 2018, UK fleets landed fish worth £32m in Norwegian waters, according to the government.
Who really owns UK fishing rights?
What does the deal mean for fishing?
With the UK no longer part of the European Common Fisheries Policy, it now deals directly with Norway - which is not an EU member state - on fishing matters.
The two countries agreed last year to a post-Brexit system of co-operation, including annual negotiations on quotas and access to each other's waters.
But a deal for 2021 proved impossible, despite weeks of talks.
UK Fisheries chief executive Jane Sandell complained that the UK government had failed "even to maintain the rights we have had to fish in Norwegian waters for decades".
Cod and chips image copyrightPA Media
image captionUK Fisheries says the lack of a deal will have implications for UK chippies
She added: "In consequence, there will be no British-caught Arctic cod sold through chippies for our national dish.
"It will all be imported from the Norwegians, who will continue to sell their fish products to the UK tariff-free, while we are excluded from these waters. Quite simply, this is a disgrace and a national embarrassment."
UK Fisheries said it had invested approximately £180m in the last 20 years in the Humberside fishing industry, and had planned to put in a further £100m.
The company's giant vessel, the Kirkella, normally catches around 10% of all the fish sold in the UK's chip shops.
A Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs spokesperson said it had always been clear it would only strike agreements "if they are balanced and in the interests of the UK fishing industry".
"We put forward a fair offer on access to UK waters and the exchange of fishing quotas, but we have concluded that our positions remain too far apart to reach an agreement this year," they added.
"Norway is a key partner and we will continue to work with them over the course of the year."
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-56932551
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View: Latest Distant Fishing Scorecard
22 April 2021
Lack of fisheries deals with Norway, Greenland, Faroes will scupper the fleet
Since Brexit, the UK has failed to deliver a single access agreement with our coastal neighbours. The Government’s Scorecard is getting worse. Kirkella is tied up, and our crews have no work. The UK must make these deals if we are to save distant-waters fishing in the north-east of England.
Right now we have no access agreements with our coastal neighbours, Norway, Greenland, Iceland and the Faroes, yet we’re offering trading partners like Norway tariff-free access to our valuable market for fisheries products, and getting nothing in return – and it is our crews and our industry that are suffering. See our Government Scorecard here.
More in link below:
https://ukfisheries.net/media-centre/latest-distant-fishing-scorecard
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‘It’s a betrayal’: Cornish fishing vote turns against Tories over Brexit deal
In Newlyn, anger at red tape and the falling price of fish looks certain to be felt at council polls
(...)
Newlyn’s fishers and fish merchants survived the near-complete shutdown of the hospitality industry during the pandemic by selling more to shops and direct to the public. But Brexit has caused a whole new set of problems, because 80% of the catch they land usually gets exported to other European countries.
(...)
Prices for some fish fell to the point where they were not worth catching. “Hake is normally about £5 to £6 a kilo. It fluctuates daily but we’re down to 60p,” says Parsons over the squawk of gulls. “In order to make a trip – one boat going out for five days – you need to clear £2.20 a kilo.”
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/apr/25/its-a-betrayal-cornish-fishing-vote-turns-against-tories-over-brexit-deal
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I'm afraid this is what happens when turkeys vote for Christmas - they get well and truly plucked.
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I'm afraid this is what happens when turkeys vote for Christmas - they get well and truly plucked.
As are those who didn't.
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Hmmm. The title seems potentially misleading, even if the bottom line may be correct. My understanding is that it's not that molluscs are banned, but rather that the need to purify them (from Class B waters) before exporting them makes it unfeasible.
EU bans the importing of live Class B bivalve molluscs from UK
by editor | Feb 3, 2021 | EU Fishing Industry, Latest News, UK Fishing Industry News
EU bans the importing of live Class B bive valve molluscs like mussels from UK
EU bans the importing of live Class B bivalve molluscs like mussels from UK
The European Union has closed the door on the import of live mussels, oysters, clams and cockles from the United Kingdom.
Exports of live bivalve molluscs that are not ready for human consumption are banned for the foreseeable future and this has in the majority caused the fishing and harvesting of these species to be shut down, putting an industry worth hundreds of millions of pounds in jeopardy.
Live bivalve molluscs that are landed from “Class A” waters – the very cleanest – can currently be transported from the UK to the EU without the need for purification beforehand. But most UK waters are not in that category.
The vast majority of molluscs come from “Class B” waters. These must be depurated before they are fit for human consumption. There are currently barriers in place by the EU that mean that live bivalve molluscs not depurated from Class B waters cannot be exported from third countries, including the UK, to the EU for depuration.
The ban originally applied only to wild-caught bivalve molluscs and was understood to have been caused by new EU animal health regulations which are due to come into force on 21 April. The previous regulations expired at the end of 2020, leaving a gap until the new ones come into force. Before 01 January this year, shellfish was normally purified or processed in the EU before it was distributed for human consumption to supermarkets and eateries.
But the shellfish sector learned this week that the ban now applies to all exports to the EU of live bivalve molluscs, not just wild-caught animals.
Since 01 January, UK firms have been able to send only pre-purified, ready-to-eat shellfish – accompanied by an export health certificate – to buyers in the EU’s 27 member states.
It was “expected” that the EU would change its rules on that date to allow impurified shellfish in from non-member states.
But it has emerged that the European Commission wrote to leading UK companies on 13 and 19 January to tell them the current arrangement would be in place indefinitely.
A government source confirmed that UK officials were aware of the EU’s stance, with a DEFRA spokesperson telling PoliticsHome:
“We will continue to raise the issue of live bivalve molluscs not ready for human consumption with the EU, to ensure the trade can continue securely.”
There are currently no seafood processors in the UK that is equipped to depurate large quantities of live bivalve molluscs and companies would have to invest up to £1 million in order to install such treatment plants which some say is not feasible. Another issue facing shellfish processors is that purified shellfish deteriorate quicker that impurified shellfish, making them more difficult to transport.
https://thefishingdaily.com/latest-news/eu-bans-the-importing-of-live-class-b-bivalve-molluscs-from-uk/
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Re the failed Norway deal:
Jane Sandell(CE, UK Fisheries) - It's a black day.. it's a total disgrace that @DefraGovUK
haven't managed to retain the rights the UK has had for decades, never mind any brexit bonus...
Video clip from Sky:
https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1388063817624694785
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Aug 2018: Farage saying, if the UK takes back control of its territorial fishing waters, and, if properly managed, the UK fishing industry could be worth £3-5b. It would also be an impetus to regenerating many coastal towns.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oJsgdxiKZM
April 2021:
He's now off for an "American Comeback Tour", in support of FreedomWorks*:
https://twitter.com/FreedomWorks/status/1388183086207283201
* "FreedomWorks is a conservative and libertarian advocacy group based in Washington, D.C. FreedomWorks trains volunteers, assists in campaigns, and encourages them to mobilize, interacting with both fellow citizens and their political representatives. It was widely associated with the Tea Party movement[4][5][6][7] before firmly aligning with Donald Trump.[8] The Koch brothers have been a major source of the organization's funding.[7] "
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FreedomWorks
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On the future for Grimsby.
A few points, while fishing was largely an emotive issue (as opposed to an economic one in terms of GDP), fish processing employ (ed) 2/3 of those in the industry.
https://www.cigionline.org/articles/fishing-after-brexit-grimsby-awaits-new-economic-reality?utm_source=google_ads&utm_medium=grant&gclid=CjwKCAjwm7mEBhBsEiwA_of-TG49r1USPwfIvDS81AzKkOrpwVigf_c3_x1SEKEoRs2dS_6KYwcVQRoCUq4QAvD_BwE
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I can see that the EU catch in the UK's EEZ zone seems unfair at first glance.
https://www.statista.com/chart/23210/eez-surface-are-and-eu-uk-fishing/
But... it doesn't state which types of fish and therefore doesn't clarify whether Brits actually ate them.
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From August 2019:
Snippet:
A myth has been propagated by Brexiteers. There is a single “British fishing industry” which will benefit from reclaiming the “60/70/80% of British fish” caught by EU boats.
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No, there isn’t. There are competing interests. English v Scottish; deep-sea fishing v inshore fishing; industrial v family-scale boats; fishers v processors. Some of the most vibrant, locally important and ecologically respectful parts of the UK industry have nothing to gain and everything to lose from Brexit.
They depend on shellfish, lobsters, crabs and langoustines (crayfish) that are quota-free or are overwhelmingly allocated to the UK. More than 80% is sold to the continent (mostly Spain and France). This trade has grown large because of the border-free EU single market.
Post-Brexit, trucks arriving in France with fish caught by scores of small boats will have to supply scores of “origin” and “health” documents – one for each boat and each catch. Traders will have to find UK local inspectors in working hours to verify the origin of the seafood and vets to certify its quality.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/aug/31/myth-brexit-bonanza-uk-fishing-exposed-no-deal
What a totally predictable mess. ;(
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Carana, I can promise you people who voted Brexit don't give a shit about it (unless they are fishermen but who cares about them really, Brexiteers only pretended to care about the fishing industry IMO).
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Carana, I can promise you people who voted Brexit don't give a shit about it (unless they are fishermen but who cares about them really, Brexiteers only pretended to care about the fishing industry IMO).
I feel sorry that they believed so many of the lies and no one can help them fix the mess. It's not just the fisherman themselves, but all the little coastal communities that are also directly or indirectly affected.
NB: And I haven't started on cheese exports, yet.
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I think the French are beyond the pale, suggesting that they could cut off electricity supplies to the Channel Islands over delayed fishing licences.
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I think the French are beyond the pale, suggesting that they could cut off electricity supplies to the Channel Islands over delayed fishing licences.
I tend to agree that that was a bit OTT. Trying to fact check, it was the French Maritime Minister who apparently said that.
https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20210506-flotilla-of-french-fishing-ships-sails-to-jersey-in-escalating-row-over-fishing-grounds
https://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-eco/conditions-de-peche-post-brexit-la-ministre-francaise-de-la-mer-menace-jersey-de-retorsion-20210504
However, it wasn't the French fishermen who voted for Brexit, yet they are also bearing the brunt of the UK restricting their own fishing rights.
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Carana, I can promise you people who voted Brexit don't give a shit about it (unless they are fishermen but who cares about them really, Brexiteers only pretended to care about the fishing industry IMO).
But I've had quite a few (sometimes heated) discussions with people who voted for Brexit for whom it was a highly emotive issue (brave local fishermen with nasty furriners nicking all the fish). Now that it has indeed gone tits-up, the same people have now suddenly realised that fishing is only a tiny part of the UK economy (which I'd pointed out way back in 2016).
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But I've had quite a few (sometimes heated) discussions with people who voted for Brexit for whom it was a highly emotive issue (brave local fishermen with nasty furriners nicking all the fish). Now that it has indeed gone tits-up, the same people have now suddenly realised that fishing is only a tiny part of the UK economy (which I'd pointed out way back in 2016).
Haha, yes my mother was one of those passionate supporters of the fishermen, but her attitude now is very much "oh well, it's rather unfortunate but we couldn't expect everyone to come out of Brexit better off, never mind it will all work out in the long run, nothing to see here, ra ra ra"
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I tend to agree that that was a bit OTT. Trying to fact check, it was the French Maritime Minister who apparently said that.
https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20210506-flotilla-of-french-fishing-ships-sails-to-jersey-in-escalating-row-over-fishing-grounds
https://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-eco/conditions-de-peche-post-brexit-la-ministre-francaise-de-la-mer-menace-jersey-de-retorsion-20210504
However, it wasn't the French fishermen who voted for Brexit, yet they are also bearing the brunt of the UK restricting their own fishing rights.
From what I can gather the French fishermen were protesting about delays in issuing their fishing permits. According to Jersey the delays were due to the fishermen not supplying the correct information.
Whatever the truth, blockading another country's port is not something that fishermen have any right to do. Nor does a French Minister have any right to threaten that country's government.
Don Thompson, president of Jersey Fishermen's Association, said "In many parts of the world that would be seen as an act of war" and I agree with him.
https://news.sky.com/story/uk-to-send-two-royal-navy-boats-to-jersey-after-france-threatens-blockade-of-island-port-12297840
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Haha, yes my mother was one of those passionate supporters of the fishermen, but her attitude now is very much "oh well, it's rather unfortunate but we couldn't expect everyone to come out of Brexit better off, never mind it will all work out in the long run, nothing to see here, ra ra ra"
LOL Exactly the same response my end.