Author Topic: Are killers born to kill?  (Read 5616 times)

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Offline Angelo222

Are killers born to kill?
« on: July 05, 2012, 04:29:47 PM »
Are killers born to kill?

Some of the posts made today are fringing this subject so I thought I would start this thread.

Some psychologists and psychiatrists believe this to be the case.  They believe that some people are simply born evil and society's influence has little or no effect on them.  Others believe that killers are not born to kill but society deals them such a hard luck card that they kill given the right circumstances.

It is also claimed that just as the difference between genius and insanity is paper thin, the difference between a potential killer and a Saint is also paper thin.

What does everyone think??

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Offline Joanne

Re: Are killers born to kill?
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2012, 04:54:22 PM »
I'd say no and I say it because I only know of one case where the children of a murderer (either male or female) have gone onto kill (Sante and Kenneth Kimes).
Rose and Fred Wests children didn't becone killers nor did Ronald Castree's children and I don't know any cases were the parents of any murderers were killers either, only as above and I'd have thought the children were born to kill they'd would be genetically disposed to it if they were born to kill as are other conditions eg haemophillia.
I wonder if circumstances are more to blame ie the partner is agressive so the other partner follows (Myra Hindley/Ian Brady), hatred of a certain class (Colin Ireland and David Copeland) or greed/need/narcissitic (JB and Brian Blackwell).
I suppose people might say genetics plays a part eg hatred of ethnic groups for instance but the majority of people who are homophobic for instance just avoid the pubs who cater for homo-sexual's, bi's etc but only a few people would murder a specific group of people or kill out of greed etc. If that makes any sense. I'm useless at explaining.

Offline Tim Invictus

Re: Are killers born to kill?
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2012, 06:55:24 PM »
I'd say no and I say it because I only know of one case where the children of a murderer (either male or female) have gone onto kill (Sante and Kenneth Kimes).
Rose and Fred Wests children didn't becone killers nor did Ronald Castree's children and I don't know any cases were the parents of any murderers were killers either, only as above and I'd have thought the children were born to kill they'd would be genetically disposed to it if they were born to kill as are other conditions eg haemophillia.
I wonder if circumstances are more to blame ie the partner is agressive so the other partner follows (Myra Hindley/Ian Brady), hatred of a certain class (Colin Ireland and David Copeland) or greed/need/narcissitic (JB and Brian Blackwell).

I suppose people might say genetics plays a part eg hatred of ethnic groups for instance but the majority of people who are homophobic for instance just avoid the pubs who cater for homo-sexual's, bi's etc but only a few people would murder a specific group of people or kill out of greed etc. If that makes any sense. I'm useless at explaining.

Not at all Jo; you're excellent at explaining your pont and highly knowledgeable.

Offline Angelo222

Re: Are killers born to kill?
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2012, 06:59:06 PM »
You misunderstand my question Joanne but I probably didn't explain it property...sorry.

I am not saying that the children of killers will go on to kill.  We all know that certain traits are passed down in the genes of our parents.  We know that children born to two high academic achievers may be intelligent but they may also be not so intelligent, it is all in the mix as they say.  By the same token, children born to a killer may or may not inherit those specific genes, thus there is no way of telling what any child will turn out like until it grows up.

We have seen child killers as in the James Bulger case so we know that a child does not need to reach maturity for certain traits to manifest themselves in any particular child.  It's basically down to pot luck in most cases.

The question I posed does not relate to parentage.  I simply asked are children born to kill.  To put it another way, are killers born that way or does society create them?

Was Jeremy Bamber destined to kill from the moment he was conceived?

De troothe has the annoying habit of coming to the surface just when you least expect it!!

Je ne regrette rien!!

realtruth

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Re: Are killers born to kill?
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2012, 08:02:55 PM »
Nature or nurture...Genetically we all have the potential to be killers.
Inherent psychopathic tendencies might suggest that there are those who are more likely to be killers.
As well as there are those disturbed throughout the formative years (0-5/7) might be more likely to kill.
There are also circumstances which might lead someone to unintentionally kill. As well as there are those evil enough to kill but influence others or manipulate situations for killings to occur.

Tough one David


 

Offline abs

Re: Are killers born to kill?
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2012, 10:14:39 PM »
A little of this and a little of that. You find that in the cases of serial killers, all of them were mistreated as kids, but not all mistreated kids become serial killers.
Lack of frontal lobe activity in the brain could be the cause behind some people killing and some not. You can be born with smaller frontal lobes/FL activity than others, you can sustain head injury later, which will damage that part of the brain.
Very sloppy post, I know, I am packing for HOLIDAY!

Offline Tim Invictus

Re: Are killers born to kill?
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2012, 06:09:37 PM »
A little of this and a little of that. You find that in the cases of serial killers, all of them were mistreated as kids, but not all mistreated kids become serial killers.
Lack of frontal lobe activity in the brain could be the cause behind some people killing and some not. You can be born with smaller frontal lobes/FL activity than others, you can sustain head injury later, which will damage that part of the brain.
Very sloppy post, I know, I am packing for HOLIDAY!

Where's you off to Abs ... somewhere nice and hot I trust?
Hope you have a good one!  8((()*/

Offline mrswah

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Re: Are killers born to kill?
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2016, 01:53:47 PM »
No, I doubt whether anyone is born to kill.

Some just have more chance of becoming killers than others, perhaps because they have an underlying mental illness, or because they sustain a certain type of head injury, or because they become involved with the wrong person. Some have ghastly early childhoods, although, of course, there are many people in this position who never become killers.

Fred and Rosemary West , it appears, were both sexually abused by their own parents.  By the time they got together, he had already killed, and it was reported somewhere that he had sustained a head injury that changed his personality for the worse.   She was very young and sexually precocious.  Without making excuses for what they did, they didn't stand much chance of making it as a "normal" couple.

Peter Sutcliffe apparently has , or had, a mental illness, and it seems that his wife did too.

Ian Brady had an unsettled early life, and , as he grew up developed an interest in sadism, Nazis, etc.  Whether or not he had killed before he met Myra Hindley is a matter for conjecture, but I doubt very much whether she had been involved in murder before meeting him.  She, unfortunately, got involved with the wrong man, with disastrous results. She wanted something better than what her neighbourhood offered, and believed Brady was different and more interesting than the other men whom she had met.  She fell under his spell, and was too young and stupid to realise what she was getting into until she WAS right under his spell.  I don't think she was evil from birth. 


Offline G-Unit

Re: Are killers born to kill?
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2016, 04:40:36 PM »
I think the word 'kill' is too general. Perhaps 'murder' is better.

Kill; cause the death of (a person, animal, or other living thing.

Murder; the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.

Even then it's impossible to compare those who carry out a mercy killing with those who commit serial murders. . Both kill, and both are legally murderers, but that is the only similarity imo.







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Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Are killers born to kill?
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2016, 10:31:42 AM »
I think 'attachment' plays a pivotal role in a person's ability to empathise or not.  This has been borne out by numerous studies and decades of research.  It's clearly not the sole reason but imo a key factor.

If you take a look at the early childhoods of Rosemary West, Ted Bundy and dare I say it Sheila Caffell all had caregivers who suffered severe depression:

RW - birth mother
TB - birth grandmother
SC - adoptive mother

If you Google 'attachment and psychopathy' it turns up 114,000 hits.

Check out Simon Baron-Cohen on empathy and psychopathy.  His YouTube vids are interesting.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Baron-Cohen 
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Are killers born to kill?
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2016, 02:50:28 PM »
I think 'attachment' plays a pivotal role in a person's ability to empathise or not.  This has been borne out by numerous studies and decades of research.  It's clearly not the sole reason but imo a key factor.

If you take a look at the early childhoods of Rosemary West, Ted Bundy and dare I say it Sheila Caffell all had caregivers who suffered severe depression:

RW - birth mother
TB - birth grandmother
SC - adoptive mother

If you Google 'attachment and psychopathy' it turns up 114,000 hits.

Check out Simon Baron-Cohen on empathy and psychopathy.  His YouTube vids are interesting.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Baron-Cohen

Just checked back on the primary caregivers of the above: RW, TB and SC and all suffered depression so severely they underwent ECT. 
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Are killers born to kill?
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2016, 10:02:14 PM »
Are killers born to kill?

Some of the posts made today are fringing this subject so I thought I would start this thread.

Some psychologists and psychiatrists believe this to be the case.  They believe that some people are simply born evil and society's influence has little or no effect on them. Others believe that killers are not born to kill but society deals them such a hard luck card that they kill given the right circumstances.

It is also claimed that just as the difference between genius and insanity is paper thin, the difference between a potential killer and a Saint is also paper thin.

What does everyone think??

I believe that to be the case but all evil people are not necessarily killers; imo
What, however, sets people apart to make them killers, by which I don't mean those who kill in a "red mist" but those who are able to kill repeatedly in a cold calculated manner ?
Try these as a broad cross section:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wayne_Gacy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Nilsen
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyudmila_Pavlichenko
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuck_Mawhinney
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannock_Chase_murders

Gacy and Mawhinney are particularly interesting imo.


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Offline mercury

Re: Are killers born to kill?
« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2016, 12:58:24 AM »
IM more on the nurture versus nature side

what drove two kids to murder jamie bulger cant be divorced from their upbringng IMO which could be wrong of course

Offline G-Unit

Re: Are killers born to kill?
« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2016, 11:20:17 AM »
IM more on the nurture versus nature side

what drove two kids to murder jamie bulger cant be divorced from their upbringng IMO which could be wrong of course

I agree. Children are born with predispositions but their upbringing pushes them in a certain direction. Some can't cope and lose the plot, other's are stronger and take charge of their own lives regardless. Also it's not just obviously dysfunctional families in which children are damaged. It can happen in any family.
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Offline mercury

Re: Are killers born to kill?
« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2016, 08:18:52 PM »
I agree. Children are born with predispositions but their upbringing pushes them in a certain direction. Some can't cope and lose the plot, other's are stronger and take charge of their own lives regardless. Also it's not just obviously dysfunctional families in which children are damaged. It can happen in any family.

Correct
its a miss  mash of both

Bad genes bad family
Bad genes good family
but only a psycho (bad genes bad family) would kill a child with glee