Author Topic: Perceptions of Madeleine's Abduction  (Read 29338 times)

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Offline Wonderfulspam

Re: Perceptions of Madeleine's Abduction
« Reply #30 on: May 23, 2022, 11:13:59 PM »
Abduction is what is being investigated by three police forces, perhaps you should put all your collecive sceptic efforts into persuading them all that they are mistaken?  With all the enormous weight of evidence against the parents it should be an easy job for you and Spam so get to it, why don’t you…

They've been investigating abduction for 15 years.
Still haven't solved it though, so,  maybe it just wasn't an abduction then.
That would explain the total lack of progress, wouldn't It.
I stand with Putin. Glory to Mother Putin.

Offline Brietta

Re: Perceptions of Madeleine's Abduction
« Reply #31 on: May 24, 2022, 01:42:29 AM »
Talking of groundhog day I interpreted your opening post as an attempt to restate the opinion that Amaral alone chose to suspect the parents and make them arguidos, which is ludicrous.

The opinion that people all over the place read his book and believed every word of it is not really capable of being tested. The McCanns were unable to offer any evidence in court that Amaral's book 'damaged the search for Madeleine'. That's why their claim on her behalf was dismissed.

Nobody knows why a lot of people doubted the abduction story. I think there's probably a lot of different reasons why people arrived at that opinion.

He certainly did pull a few ludicrous rabbits out of the hat though, didn't he?  Little wonder that no-one wants to be associated either with him or with them.  There was the one where he went on TV on the tenth anniversary of Madeleine's abduction and told an interviewer "We had information three figures went into the church via a side door at night.

"They had a box and there was to be a cremation of a British woman.

"It is possible the child’s remains were in this box and cremated as well. The parents had the key to the church."
 
https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/portuguese-ex-detective-goncalo-amaral-10333617?service=responsive


I would be a bit embarrassed to acknowledge that I gave this man any credence whatsoever, so I know exactly where you are coming from while appreciating that your opinion is yours and yours alone and owes nothing to him.

That was Amaral's tenth anniversary contribution as Kate and Gerry continued raising Madeleine's profile as they have always done.  For example in 2013 they had made an appearance on Aktenzeichen XY, a long-running German TV crime programme to raise awareness.  I'm not sure whether or not that was what prompted the first identification of Brueckner.  But the tenth anniversary definitely turned up trumps and his name appeared again; only this time the police had more to work with.  And they did.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline Brietta

Re: Perceptions of Madeleine's Abduction
« Reply #32 on: May 24, 2022, 02:24:41 AM »
It's presented as a fact by certain people all the time, perhaps to lay down the parameters for debate. Strictly speaking it should be referred to as a disappearance imo.

Indeed ~ apparently children "disappear" as if in a puff of smoke all the time.  Well known phenomenon apparently and if not a parameter for debate most certainly the most damning legacy for the missing child and the devastated family left behind them.

Then there are those who are subsequently found to have been abducted from their beds by a stranger.

Isabel Celis being a case in point.


UPDATE

On Friday, September 14th, 2018 Tucson Detectives arrested 36 year old Christopher Clements in connection with two murders.  In total, Clements was charged with two counts of first degree murder, two counts of kidnapping a minor under 15, two counts of second degree burglary, one count of theft by controlling stolen property, one count of trafficking in stolen property and 14 counts of sexual exploitation of a minor. 

According to Tucson Police Chief, Chris Magnus, the FBI received a tip in 2017 about a man who may possess information about the disappearance of Isabel Celis, and that man was named to be Christopher Clements.  It appears that it was their conversation with Clements at that time which led them to the discovery of Isabel’s remains.  When Isabel’s remains were recovered, they were in an area very close to where another young girl had been found on June 6th, 2014. 
                                  =============================================
Christopher Clements has a long history of crimes.  In 1998, he was convicted of a sex offense in the state of Oregon when he was only fifteen years old.  He was sentenced to a year and a half in prison, and ten years of probation following his release.  He was required to register as a sex offender, but in 2006, he was found guilty in the state of Florida for failing to register as a sex offender.  Later that year, Clements was charged with violating a protection order and harassing someone via telephone in Oregon.  In 2007 he was charged with providing false information to police when it was found that he gave a false name to Tucson Police on two separate occasions.  Clements lived in various residences in Tucson between 2007 and 2012.  One of these locations was an apartment complex less than two miles away from the Celis home.

https://www.trace-evidence.com/updates/isabel-celis

But don't worry about it too much - all is not yet lost.  These cases can be horribly difficult to prove and despite Clements giving up Isabel's remains it hasn't yet been possible to bring him to trial.

Trials postponed for Christopher Clements, man accused of killing Tucson girls
  https://www.kold.com/2022/04/13/trials-postponed-christopher-clements-man-accused-killing-tucson-girls/
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline G-Unit

Re: Perceptions of Madeleine's Abduction
« Reply #33 on: May 24, 2022, 07:12:19 AM »
He certainly did pull a few ludicrous rabbits out of the hat though, didn't he?  Little wonder that no-one wants to be associated either with him or with them.  There was the one where he went on TV on the tenth anniversary of Madeleine's abduction and told an interviewer "We had information three figures went into the church via a side door at night.

"They had a box and there was to be a cremation of a British woman.

"It is possible the child’s remains were in this box and cremated as well. The parents had the key to the church."
 
https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/portuguese-ex-detective-goncalo-amaral-10333617?service=responsive


I would be a bit embarrassed to acknowledge that I gave this man any credence whatsoever, so I know exactly where you are coming from while appreciating that your opinion is yours and yours alone and owes nothing to him.

That was Amaral's tenth anniversary contribution as Kate and Gerry continued raising Madeleine's profile as they have always done.  For example in 2013 they had made an appearance on Aktenzeichen XY, a long-running German TV crime programme to raise awareness.  I'm not sure whether or not that was what prompted the first identification of Brueckner.  But the tenth anniversary definitely turned up trumps and his name appeared again; only this time the police had more to work with.  And they did.

Groundhog day; Amaral...Amaral...Amaral.
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Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Perceptions of Madeleine's Abduction
« Reply #34 on: May 24, 2022, 07:13:10 AM »
Indeed ~ apparently children "disappear" as if in a puff of smoke all the time.  Well known phenomenon apparently and if not a parameter for debate most certainly the most damning legacy for the missing child and the devastated family left behind them.

Then there are those who are subsequently found to have been abducted from their beds by a stranger.

Isabel Celis being a case in point.


UPDATE

On Friday, September 14th, 2018 Tucson Detectives arrested 36 year old Christopher Clements in connection with two murders.  In total, Clements was charged with two counts of first degree murder, two counts of kidnapping a minor under 15, two counts of second degree burglary, one count of theft by controlling stolen property, one count of trafficking in stolen property and 14 counts of sexual exploitation of a minor. 

According to Tucson Police Chief, Chris Magnus, the FBI received a tip in 2017 about a man who may possess information about the disappearance of Isabel Celis, and that man was named to be Christopher Clements.  It appears that it was their conversation with Clements at that time which led them to the discovery of Isabel’s remains.  When Isabel’s remains were recovered, they were in an area very close to where another young girl had been found on June 6th, 2014. 
                                  =============================================
Christopher Clements has a long history of crimes.  In 1998, he was convicted of a sex offense in the state of Oregon when he was only fifteen years old.  He was sentenced to a year and a half in prison, and ten years of probation following his release.  He was required to register as a sex offender, but in 2006, he was found guilty in the state of Florida for failing to register as a sex offender.  Later that year, Clements was charged with violating a protection order and harassing someone via telephone in Oregon.  In 2007 he was charged with providing false information to police when it was found that he gave a false name to Tucson Police on two separate occasions.  Clements lived in various residences in Tucson between 2007 and 2012.  One of these locations was an apartment complex less than two miles away from the Celis home.

https://www.trace-evidence.com/updates/isabel-celis

But don't worry about it too much - all is not yet lost.  These cases can be horribly difficult to prove and despite Clements giving up Isabel's remains it hasn't yet been possible to bring him to trial.

Trials postponed for Christopher Clements, man accused of killing Tucson girls
  https://www.kold.com/2022/04/13/trials-postponed-christopher-clements-man-accused-killing-tucson-girls/
But how on earth can he be guilty?  He has no previous history of abduction and murder!
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline G-Unit

Re: Perceptions of Madeleine's Abduction
« Reply #35 on: May 24, 2022, 07:25:11 AM »
They've been investigating abduction for 15 years.
Still haven't solved it though, so,  maybe it just wasn't an abduction then.
That would explain the total lack of progress, wouldn't It.

If there's no abductor there was no abduction. Has it all been, as Matthew Steeples put it, 'an almighty b**ls-up'?
Has £14 million been wasted looking for a child who most likely died in 2007?
https://www.thesteepletimes.com/movers-shakers/nonsensical-mccann/
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Result = happy posting.
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Offline Myster

Re: Perceptions of Madeleine's Abduction
« Reply #36 on: May 24, 2022, 07:38:56 AM »
If there's no abductor there was no abduction. Has it all been, as Matthew Steeples put it, 'an almighty b**ls-up'?
Has £14 million been wasted looking for a child who most likely died in 2007?
https://www.thesteepletimes.com/movers-shakers/nonsensical-mccann/
Ah Yes!... Steeples... another clueless money-grubber.  His kowtowing to the Bamber-supporting clan is just as sickening.
It's one of them cases, in'it... one of them f*ckin' cases.

Offline Brietta

Re: Perceptions of Madeleine's Abduction
« Reply #37 on: May 24, 2022, 07:46:10 AM »
Groundhog day; Amaral...Amaral...Amaral.

There might have been a grain of truth in there somewhere, were it not for the fact that Amaral placed himself right at the centre of Madeleine's case once more.

He did not have to open his mouth on Saunokonoko's " Maddie podcast in December 2019.  But he did.  Setting the media pack on the trail of the German paedophile under lock and key in Germany.

Yet again he interfered in Madeleine's case unnecessarily and detrimentally.  Hmmm ~ I suppose that could indeed be classed as groundhog day with Amaral doing what he does best starting with leaks to the press and always with Madeleine's parents in his sights as his ultimate targets.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Perceptions of Madeleine's Abduction
« Reply #38 on: May 24, 2022, 07:53:29 AM »
If there's no abductor there was no abduction. Has it all been, as Matthew Steeples put it, 'an almighty b**ls-up'?
Has £14 million been wasted looking for a child who most likely died in 2007?
https://www.thesteepletimes.com/movers-shakers/nonsensical-mccann/
Perhaps you might like to consider the inanity of Spam’s logic?   It seems that there is a belief held by some  on this board that the longer you investigate something or someone the less likely it is that it or they are involved.  So, for example, police have spent years and years investigating the abduction and murder of Suzy Lamplugh so that must mean (using Spamlogic)  they’ve wasted all that time investigating a crime that probably never happened.   It’s foolish beyond belief but it seems you don’t have a problem with it?
Incidentally £14m has not been spent hunting a living child, where did you get the idea that it had?
« Last Edit: May 24, 2022, 07:59:42 AM by Swertigo Virl »
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Perceptions of Madeleine's Abduction
« Reply #39 on: May 24, 2022, 07:58:46 AM »
Ah Yes!... Steeples... another clueless money-grubber.  His kowtowing to the Bamber-supporting clan is just as sickening.
his website boasts “wit and wisdom in equal measure “.  Having just read the propaganda piece G-Unit supplied the link to I think it’s fair to say he could be sued under the Trades Description Act.  @)(++(*
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline Brietta

Re: Perceptions of Madeleine's Abduction
« Reply #40 on: May 24, 2022, 08:05:45 AM »
If there's no abductor there was no abduction. Has it all been, as Matthew Steeples put it, 'an almighty b**ls-up'?
Has £14 million been wasted looking for a child who most likely died in 2007?
https://www.thesteepletimes.com/movers-shakers/nonsensical-mccann/

Do you think I cannot quote nonentities in their thousands who all mirror the sceptic views they appear to have received in a blindingly collective Damascene flash of opinion forming light which had nothing at all to do with the opinions promoted by Amaral.  Despite the fact he formulated many of them if not all.

Oh wait a minute.
Not even he subscribes to the Sunday death nor I think the clone theory.  There are those who thought that madness up all by themselves.

What evidence supports the views of all these opinionated people?  I know of none but they are entitled to hold them because at the end of the day they are essentially harmless.  Unlike Amaral who is using the media to derail an active police investigation in existence to find out the fate of a missing child.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline G-Unit

Re: Perceptions of Madeleine's Abduction
« Reply #41 on: May 24, 2022, 08:28:24 AM »
Ah Yes!... Steeples... another clueless money-grubber.  His kowtowing to the Bamber-supporting clan is just as sickening.

Thank you for sharing your personal opinion of the man. Do you have anything to say about his opinions? He is, after all, expressing opinions which are shared by others.
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Offline Wonderfulspam

Re: Perceptions of Madeleine's Abduction
« Reply #42 on: May 24, 2022, 08:29:35 AM »
Perhaps you might like to consider the inanity of Spam’s logic?   It seems that there is a belief held by some  on this board that the longer you investigate something or someone the less likely it is that it or they are involved.  So, for example, police have spent years and years investigating the abduction and murder of Suzy Lamplugh so that must mean (using Spamlogic)  they’ve wasted all that time investigating a crime that probably never happened.   It’s foolish beyond belief but it seems you don’t have a problem with it?
Incidentally £14m has not been spent hunting a living child, where did you get the idea that it had?

Suzy Lamplugh disappeared, didn't she?

What evidence do you have she was abducted & murdered?

If you have anything I suggest you inform the police, because they are still investigating her disappearance, rather than abduction & murder, as you claim.
I stand with Putin. Glory to Mother Putin.

Offline Brietta

Re: Perceptions of Madeleine's Abduction
« Reply #43 on: May 24, 2022, 08:32:57 AM »
his website boasts “wit and wisdom in equal measure “.  Having just read the propaganda piece G-Unit supplied the link to I think it’s fair to say he could be sued under the Trades Description Act.  @)(++(*

It is actually a very sad opinion piece.

This guy posted that in May 2022 and managed to include many of the tropes beloved of sceptics as they dream on.
And all calculated to celebrate the fact that another year is marked by the continued absence of a dearly loved child.

Like minded people at one time were in charge of Madeleine's investigation.  I think the evidence is scant that they had a thought in their heads about looking for her.  But the evidence they were looking for a criminal conviction for her parents is myriad.  Amaral even wrote a book outlining it.

Given that mindset what chance did the investigation have or even what chance did Madeleine have during the squandered golden hours of her disappearance?
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Perceptions of Madeleine's Abduction
« Reply #44 on: May 24, 2022, 08:34:36 AM »
Thank you for sharing your personal opinion of the man. Do you have anything to say about his opinions? He is, after all, expressing opinions which are shared by others.
As you refused to say anything about Anna Raccon’s opinions why should anyone do the courtesy of answering your question about Steeples?
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly