UK Justice Forum

Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Holly Goodhead on October 21, 2019, 11:06:25 AM

Title: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 21, 2019, 11:06:25 AM
I was amazed when I arrived at chapter 20 to find it entitled 'The good, the bad and the mad; the mad referring to those suffering mental illness.  Somewhat worrying to hear such a label given to the mentally ill by a medi doctor and former GP who goes on to explain correspondence received from such individuals went into the 'Nutty' box.  (Page 379).
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 21, 2019, 01:06:34 PM
I was amazed when I arrived at chapter 20 to find it entitled 'The good, the bad and the mad; the mad referring to those suffering mental illness.  Somewhat worrying to hear such a label given to the mentally ill by a medi doctor and former GP who goes on to explain correspondence received from such individuals went into the 'Nutty' box.  (Page 379).

I dint see anything wrong with it and it's a good description of where some of the ridiculous theories belong
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: G-Unit on October 21, 2019, 01:15:26 PM
I was amazed when I arrived at chapter 20 to find it entitled 'The good, the bad and the mad; the mad referring to those suffering mental illness.  Somewhat worrying to hear such a label given to the mentally ill by a medi doctor and former GP who goes on to explain correspondence received from such individuals went into the 'Nutty' box.  (Page 379).

Obviously her six-month stint working in psychiatry was well spent. It enabled her to diagnose schizophrenics and manic depressives who contacted them!
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 21, 2019, 01:27:34 PM
Obviously her six-month stint working in psychiatry was well spent. It enabled her to diagnose schizophrenics and manic depressives who contacted them!

One might have hoped she would have more empathy for the mentally ill than describing them as "mad" and telling anyone that read her pb that she placed their correspondence in the "nutty box".  8(8-))
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 21, 2019, 01:30:27 PM
I dint see anything wrong with it and it's a good description of where some of the ridiculous theories belong

I see a clear distinction between mediums, psychics etc and the mentally ill. 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: G-Unit on October 21, 2019, 01:54:45 PM
One might have hoped she would have more empathy for the mentally ill than describing them as "mad" and telling anyone that read her pb that she placed their correspondence in the "nutty box".  8(8-))

After what she's been through her patience seems to have deserted her;

All GPs have a handful of patients who present with comparatively trivial problems. In view of what I’ve been through, and am going through still, I’d be concerned I wouldn’t have quite the sympathetic ear I once
possessed. [madeleine]

Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 21, 2019, 03:38:32 PM
I see a clear distinction between mediums, psychics etc and the mentally ill.

I'd be interested in seeing kates exact words and phrases.... Your paraphrasing may not give a accurate representation.

Referring to avtheory as mad... May not be implying mental illness
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 21, 2019, 04:16:52 PM
I'd be interested in seeing kates exact words and phrases.... Your paraphrasing may not give a accurate representation.

Referring to avtheory as mad... May not be implying mental illness

So for every baddy [sic] there are a thousand goodies; probably many more.  And then there are those it is impossible to be sure about - the folk whose correspondence goes into the 'Nutty' box.  We must assume that most of these letters, though not necessarily all of them, are sent by people suffering from mental illness, and I don't want to make light of their problems. Page 379. 

I don't wish to sound sanctimonious but I think a medi doc/former GP referring to the mentally ill and/or their correspondence as 'nutty' is somewhat misplaced. 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 21, 2019, 04:32:50 PM
According to the following 'nuts' is among the most commonly used labels to stigmatise people with mental illness:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1925070/
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Myster on October 21, 2019, 04:39:54 PM
So for every baddy [sic] there are a thousand goodies; probably many more.  And then there are those it is impossible to be sure about - the folk whose correspondence goes into the 'Nutty' box.  We must assume that most of these letters, though not necessarily all of them, are sent by people suffering from mental illness, and I don't want to make light of their problems. Page 379. 

I don't wish to sound sanctimonious but I think a medi doc/former GP referring to the mentally ill and/or their correspondence as 'nutty' is somewhat misplaced.
Why a sic for baddy?... that's just another way of spelling it!   Tesko's email to them about his ghostly visions in the derelict building must have gone into their 'Nutty' box.  Needless to say they never replied!
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on October 21, 2019, 05:58:46 PM
After what she's been through her patience seems to have deserted her;

All GPs have a handful of patients who present with comparatively trivial problems. In view of what I’ve been through, and am going through still, I’d be concerned I wouldn’t have quite the sympathetic ear I once
possessed. [madeleine]

Does she mention what her daughter had been through being 'abucted' by paedophiles? in that same sentence  or was it just aboutv her?

 I never got the book, I just discussed some contents with friends who read it.  The overall view was itwas very badly written, childish name calling, and parts which seem to be an after thought.   vVery little about thei daughter and more about the parents  so why call it 'Madeleine'?  cha ching!


"I don't wish to sound sanctimonious but I think a medi doc/former GP referring to the mentally ill and/or their correspondence as 'nutty' is somewhat misplaced."


Our Kate loves to call names and be very judgemental but hates it directed at her. poor her eh?

Very interesting about the mental illness-  Kate claimes to have suffred depression herself AND tried to claim compensation from Amaral for her 'suffering'.(She failed to provide diagnosis or evidence) when asked by the judge what cause more pain  sAmaraks book or their daughter disappearing... yup the book was the correct reply!


I was shocked by that whole farce.


Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 21, 2019, 06:16:06 PM
So for every baddy [sic] there are a thousand goodies; probably many more.  And then there are those it is impossible to be sure about - the folk whose correspondence goes into the 'Nutty' box.  We must assume that most of these letters, though not necessarily all of them, are sent by people suffering from mental illness, and I don't want to make light of their problems. Page 379. 

I don't wish to sound sanctimonious but I think a medi doc/former GP referring to the mentally ill and/or their correspondence as 'nutty' is somewhat misplaced.

I think if you dislike teh mccanns as you do you will find fault with just about every word kate says....i dont see it as anything of significance
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 21, 2019, 07:05:27 PM
So for every baddy [sic] there are a thousand goodies; probably many more.  And then there are those it is impossible to be sure about - the folk whose correspondence goes into the 'Nutty' box.  We must assume that most of these letters, though not necessarily all of them, are sent by people suffering from mental illness, and I don't want to make light of their problems. Page 379. 

I don't wish to sound sanctimonious but I think a medi doc/former GP referring to the mentally ill and/or their correspondence as 'nutty' is somewhat misplaced.
Sorry, are you the same person who was taking the piss out of Kate’s background and accent a few days ago?  How would you describe such people collectively?  Personally I think “nutty” is a preferable label to “mentally ill”, but that’s just me.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 21, 2019, 10:44:36 PM
I dint see anything wrong with it and it's a good description of where some of the ridiculous theories belong
Kate believed in God, you don't.
Gerry fell on the ground and prayed like an Arab, I doubt if you would do that.
Kate and Gerry took Cuddle Cat to Fatima and later to the Pope, why would she do that?

And yet you think she has it over those who have different beliefs. 

When I read that chapter I felt Kate was going over the top picking on my theory.  In spite of all of this Kate's mum, Susan Healy, joined my Facebook group and the other day became one of my Facebook friends.  That has me rather baffled TBH.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 22, 2019, 12:06:13 AM
Kate believed in God, you don't.
Gerry fell on the ground and prayed like an Arab, I doubt if you would do that.
Kate and Gerry took Cuddle Cat to Fatima and later to the Pope, why would she do that?

And yet you think she has it over those who have different beliefs. 

When I read that chapter I felt Kate was going over the top picking on my theory.  In spite of all of this Kate's mum, Susan Healy, joined my Facebook group and the other day became one of my Facebook friends.  That has me rather baffled TBH.
Ask her to join here - it would be interesting to see if people self moderate knowing Kate’s mother is reading.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: G-Unit on October 22, 2019, 12:34:29 AM
Kate believed in God, you don't.
Gerry fell on the ground and prayed like an Arab, I doubt if you would do that.
Kate and Gerry took Cuddle Cat to Fatima and later to the Pope, why would she do that?

And yet you think she has it over those who have different beliefs. 

When I read that chapter I felt Kate was going over the top picking on my theory.  In spite of all of this Kate's mum, Susan Healy, joined my Facebook group and the other day became one of my Facebook friends.  That has me rather baffled TBH.

Kate seems to have believed in 'visions' too.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/BOATS_VISION.htm

Gerry wasn't praying, he was just in the same physical position as Muslims are when they pray.

Cuddle Cat went everywhere with Kate McCann. Why would there be any significance in it being taken to Fatima and Rome?

Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 22, 2019, 02:49:18 AM
Ask her to join here - it would be interesting to see if people self moderate knowing Kate’s mother is reading.
On my Facebook groups I often refer to threads on the UK Justice forum.  Susan could well be one of the many guests that are reading here all the time.  It is not that easy to get someone to reply to a message  on Facebook.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 22, 2019, 02:58:56 AM
Kate seems to have believed in 'visions' too.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/BOATS_VISION.htm

Gerry wasn't praying, he was just in the same physical position as Muslims are when they pray.

Cuddle Cat went everywhere with Kate McCann. Why would there be any significance in it being taken to Fatima and Rome?
Is the word talisman the right word, like what Voodoo believers use?  That is right Kate seemed to back the dream visions in that file.

"talisman
noun
an object, typically an inscribed ring or stone, that is thought to have magic powers and to bring good luck."

So I find it quite hard to see why Kate believes some situations and not others.    Personally I have some belief in dreams that answers prayer.  OK it is quite an old fashioned idea, but if it worked in the past why would it not still be a viable source of truth.

Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 22, 2019, 08:12:30 AM
I think if you dislike teh mccanns as you do you will find fault with just about every word kate says....i dont see it as anything of significance

How can I possibly like or dislike someone I haven't even met!? 

I said based on reading KM's PB I find it difficult to warm to her. 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: ShiningInLuz on October 22, 2019, 08:17:25 AM
How can I possibly like or dislike someone I haven't even met!? 

I said based on reading KM's PB I find it difficult to warm to her.

If you haven't worked it out yet, you will find that any potential criticism of the McCanns will bring some supporters buzzing around like flies.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 22, 2019, 08:19:37 AM
If you haven't worked it out yet, you will find that any potential criticism of the McCanns will bring some supporters buzzing around like flies.

In case you hadnt noticed its  a discussion forum....LOL
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 22, 2019, 08:25:43 AM
How can I possibly like or dislike someone I haven't even met!? 

I said based on reading KM's PB I find it difficult to warm to her.
It’s very easy to dislike or like someone you haven’t met.  There are some people who post on here that I find hugely dislikeable for example, because based on what they write they come across as cruel, vindictive, lacking in empathy and downright unpleasant.  Not you, ob.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 22, 2019, 08:27:30 AM
If you haven't worked it out yet, you will find that any potential criticism of the McCanns will bring some supporters buzzing around like flies.
Pretty similar response when anyone here dares criticise anything Portuguese, you have to get the fly swatter out then too. 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 22, 2019, 08:38:38 AM
Sorry, are you the same person who was taking the p out of Kate’s background and accent a few days ago?  How would you describe such people collectively?  Personally I think “nutty” is a preferable label to “mentally ill”, but that’s just me.

I consider my comments re KM as a Liverpudlian preferring sausage and chips to chorizio and patatas bravas and making a wordplay on book as light-hearted banter and the sort of thing I would level at myself and family, friends.  And I would suggest those who disagree aren't offended by such comments per se but are seeking control. 

Do you honestly believe KM/GM could give a damn?  According to KM's PB they have received death threats!

Look at the comments section from the recent article in The Sun:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/10177250/madeleine-mccann-police-knife-crime/

 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 22, 2019, 08:48:34 AM
Ask her to join here - it would be interesting to see if people self moderate knowing Kate’s mother is reading.

KM's mother has made her feelings known on T9 leaving their children alone in the evening:

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/where-were-you-that-night-kate-what-grandmother-said-after-she-was-told-that-madeleine-had-been-6661215.html
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: The General on October 22, 2019, 09:03:42 AM
I consider my comments re KM as a Liverpudlian preferring sausage and chips to chorizio and patatas bravas and making a wordplay on book as light-hearted banter and the sort of thing I would level at myself and family, friends.  And I would suggest those who disagree aren't offended by such comments per se but are seeking control. 

Do you honestly believe KM/GM could give a damn?  According to KM's PB they have received death threats!

Look at the comments section from the recent article in The Sun:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/10177250/madeleine-mccann-police-knife-crime/

 
As a scouser I don't take offence at any of your recent comments - I just think relying on old, tired, outmoded stereotypes is weak game.
Things have moved on from 'calm down, calm down', we're serial mourners, serial complainers, 'oh woe is me' merchants nowadays apparently - the whole bin dipper pejorative is old hat.
If you're going to take the piss, at least come with a decent game, kid.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 22, 2019, 09:07:21 AM
I consider my comments re KM as a Liverpudlian preferring sausage and chips to chorizio and patatas bravas and making a wordplay on book as light-hearted banter and the sort of thing I would level at myself and family, friends.  And I would suggest those who disagree aren't offended by such comments per se but are seeking control. 

Do you honestly believe KM/GM could give a damn?  According to KM's PB they have received death threats!

Look at the comments section from the recent article in The Sun:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/10177250/madeleine-mccann-police-knife-crime/

 
I would happily call members of my own family “nutty”, “completely mad”, “two sandwiches short of a picnic” etc in a light-hearted bantery way, I doubt they’d be offended, and your point is...?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: ShiningInLuz on October 22, 2019, 09:07:57 AM
Pretty similar response when anyone here dares criticise anything Portuguese, you have to get the fly swatter out then too.

I don't have any issue with valid criticism of anything Portuguese.  The chouriço here I wouldn't feed to my dog.  Spanish chorizo is far superior.

But when supporters describe Portugal as fascist, a third world country or tin-pot, then yes I tend to respond.

Have you ever seen the McCanns vilified on here in such extreme terms?  I suspect such a post would get wiped sooner rather than later.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 22, 2019, 09:13:24 AM
Why a sic for baddy?... that's just another way of spelling it!   Tesko's email to them about his ghostly visions in the derelict building must have gone into their 'Nutty' box.  Needless to say they never replied!

Why not a uniformed style: dy or ie akin to my labels in cupboards and fridge all facing the same way!

I do hope my theory sent to the 'Find Madeleine' site hasn't ended up in the 'nutty' box and worse still under Tesko's ghostly visions  8)><(

Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 22, 2019, 09:14:45 AM
I don't have any issue with valid criticism of anything Portuguese.  The chouriço here I wouldn't feed to my dog.  Spanish chorizo is far superior.

But when supporters describe Portugal as fascist, a third world country or tin-pot, then yes I tend to respond.

Have you ever seen the McCanns vilified on here in such extreme terms?  I suspect such a post would get wiped sooner rather than later.
Yes I have.  A moderator referred to them as “shit parents “. 

IMOThere is a BIG difference between criticising a country and criticising individuals..  Personally I think Portugal is a bit of a tin-pot, backward country with a Kafkaesque legal system but I understand it has some nice beaches.  What damage have I inflicted on Portugal by saying so?  None.  If I describe you as a nasty piece of work, dishonest, child abuser or hider of dead bodies and make a point of repeating it to anyone who will listen, do I do you any damage? 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 22, 2019, 09:15:51 AM
I would happily call members of my own family “nutty”, “completely mad”, “two sandwiches short of a picnic” etc in a light-hearted bantery way, I doubt they’d be offended, and your point is...?

But would you call members of your own family "nutty", "completely mad", "two sandwiches short of a picnic" etc if they had been diagnosed with a mental illness?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 22, 2019, 09:27:03 AM
Yes I have.  A moderator referred to them as “shit parents “. 

IMOThere is a BIG difference between criticising a country and criticising individuals..  Personally I think Portugal is a bit of a tin-pot, backward country with a Kafkaesque legal system but I understand it has some nice beaches.  What damage have I inflicted on Portugal by saying so?  None.  If I describe you as a nasty piece of work, dishonest, child abuser or hider of dead bodies and make a point of repeating it to anyone who will listen, do I do you any damage?

Portugal is ranked by IMF 47/186 by GDP so hardly a bit of tin-pot backward country as you describe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)

What do you think our legal system has over Portugal's? 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 22, 2019, 09:39:26 AM
I don't have any issue with valid criticism of anything Portuguese.  The chouriço here I wouldn't feed to my dog.  Spanish chorizo is far superior.

But when supporters describe Portugal as fascist, a third world country or tin-pot, then yes I tend to respond.

Have you ever seen the McCanns vilified on here in such extreme terms?  I suspect such a post would get wiped sooner rather than later.

I think to say Portugal still has fascist undertones ..with an inept police force who prefer to beat confessions out of suspects rather than find evidence..... A police force in this case who failed to understand the badic evidence.   Is perfectly valid criticism
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 22, 2019, 09:41:32 AM
But would you call members of your own family "nutty", "completely mad", "two sandwiches short of a picnic" etc if they had been diagnosed with a mental illness?
Sure, why not?  I called my mother a “mad old bint” the other day and she’s definitely showing all the signs of dementia.  She wasn’t that pleased about it though, truth be told...  @)(++(*
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 22, 2019, 09:49:13 AM
Portugal is ranked by IMF 47/186 by GDP so hardly a bit of tin-pot backward country as you describe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)

What do you think our legal system has over Portugal's?
That’s how it comes across to me, from years of reading about the treatment of people, particularly Brits who for one reason or another fall victim to their legal system - have you not read the numerous frankly inexplicable examples of bizarre judgements and treatments of individuals at the hands of the Portuguese police and judges? The Portugal Resident newspaper is a good source for such cases.

Incidentally India has the fifth highest GDP and is frequently referred to as a third world shithole by a member of this forum.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 22, 2019, 09:53:21 AM
Portugal is ranked by IMF 47/186 by GDP so hardly a bit of tin-pot backward country as you describe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)

What do you think our legal system has over Portugal's?

I quoted two recent cases... A man found guilty of violently raping a hitchhiker received a suspended sentence
A man guilty of beating his wife with a wooden stick that had protruding nails told by the judge it was understandable, as the bible said adulterers should be punished
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 22, 2019, 09:54:50 AM
I think to say Portugal still has fascist undertones ..with an inept police force who prefer to beat confessions out of suspects rather than find evidence..... A police force in this case who failed to understand the badic evidence.   Is perfectly valid criticism

Need I say more:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Midlands_Serious_Crime_Squad
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 22, 2019, 09:57:26 AM
Sure, why not?  I called my mother a “mad old bint” the other day and she’s definitely showing all the signs of dementia.  She wasn’t that pleased about it though, truth be told...  @)(++(*

And if members of your family were suffering from some life changing physical illness would you feel such name calling was still acceptable?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 22, 2019, 09:59:53 AM
Need I say more:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Midlands_Serious_Crime_Squad
No your post, says it, all... You need to quote, an article that's 30 years old
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 22, 2019, 10:00:34 AM
I quoted two recent cases... A man found guilty of violently raping a hitchhiker received a suspended sentence
A man guilty of beating his wife with a wooden stick that had protruding nails told by the judge it was understandable, as the bible said adulterers should be punished

Well I would need to read more than just snippets but either way UK policing and the judiciary certainly doesn't have an unblemished past; its not without current problems and I wouldn't mind betting there will be a whole lot more to crawl out the woodwork as time goes on! 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 22, 2019, 10:06:53 AM
No your post, says it, all... You need to quote, an article that's 30 years old

I could sit here for hours uploading recent cases:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-humber-36951422

Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 22, 2019, 10:19:02 AM
And if members of your family were suffering from some life changing physical illness would you feel such name calling was still acceptable?
Can you please tell me what this has got to do with the discussion?  Did Kate call someone with a life changing physical illness a nasty name? 
Kate cannot help her upbringing or the way she talks (unless you feel she should have gone to elocution lessons before speaking to the media).  Therefore you are taking the piss out of her background and her class which is much the same as taking the piss out of someone for having ginger hair or a speech impediment or being Chinese.  You either go with the flow and accept that this is all harmless “banter” or you get morally righteous about it when it suits you.  My beef with you is not that you were taking the piss out of Kate’s accent per se, but that you were repeatedly doing it with the sole aim of winding up supporters on this forum, after having been told that it was annoying.  And you are supposed to be a moderator?!
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 22, 2019, 10:20:25 AM
Well I would need to read more than just snippets but either way UK policing and the judiciary certainly doesn't have an unblemished past; its not without current problems and I wouldn't mind betting there will be a whole lot more to crawl out the woodwork as time goes on!
Why are you determined to rubbish the UK justice system in order to defend the Portuguese one? 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 22, 2019, 10:22:01 AM
I could sit here for hours uploading recent cases:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-humber-36951422
At lease they were dismissed!  Were they still on active service and given high profile new cases to investigate  pending their court case?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 22, 2019, 10:25:30 AM
I could sit here for hours uploading recent cases:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-humber-36951422

Could you show where a violent rapist received a suspended sentence... Or where, a policeman found guilty of torture was allowed to keep his job
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 22, 2019, 10:48:58 AM
Can you please tell me what this has got to do with the discussion?  Did Kate call someone with a life changing physical illness a nasty name? 
Kate cannot help her upbringing or the way she talks (unless you feel she should have gone to elocution lessons before speaking to the media).  Therefore you are taking the piss out of her background and her class which is much the same as taking the piss out of someone for having ginger hair or a speech impediment or being Chinese.  You either go with the flow and accept that this is all harmless “banter” or you get morally righteous about it when it suits you.  My beef with you is not that you were taking the piss out of Kate’s accent per se, but that you were repeatedly doing it with the sole aim of winding up supporters on this forum, after having been told that it was annoying.  And you are supposed to be a moderator?!

I refuse to go round in circles on these points I've set out my position in previous posts and I've already said that imo those who object to my comments about sausage/chips and a play on word over book are seeking control rather than offended per se. 

Yes I am a moderator and not a robotic one!  Light-hearted banter about regional/international cuisine and accents is not against forum rules and others here will testify to the fact that I often make what I consider benign jokes about such matters on other boards. 



Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 22, 2019, 10:53:58 AM
I refuse to go round in circles on these points I've set out my position in previous posts and I've already said that imo those who object to my comments about sausage/chips and a play on word over book are seeking control rather than offended per se. 

Yes I am a moderator and not a robotic one!  Light-hearted banter about regional/international cuisine and accents is not against forum rules and others here will testify to the fact that I often make what I consider benign jokes about such matters on other boards.

I'm not offended by your comments I just find them quite childish
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 22, 2019, 10:55:26 AM
Why are you determined to rubbish the UK justice system in order to defend the Portuguese one?

No system is perfect whether it be the justice system or any other system and whether it be UK based or elsewhere. 

I haven't seen you post on other case related boards here or elsewhere?  I have contributed to various case related boards here, Jeremy Bamber forum and InjusticeAnywhere forum therefore I can appreciate that the UK judicial system is far from perfect along with all other countries.   
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 22, 2019, 10:55:54 AM
I'm not offended by your comments I just find them quite childish

I prefer to see them as playful  (&^&
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: G-Unit on October 22, 2019, 11:27:03 AM
Sure, why not?  I called my mother a “mad old bint” the other day and she’s definitely showing all the signs of dementia.  She wasn’t that pleased about it though, truth be told...  @)(++(*

Hardly surprising. Neither 'mad' or 'bint' are terms which a woman is likely to be pleased about.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 22, 2019, 11:37:55 AM
At least at JBF they had somewhat of a sense of humour:

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,3669.msg144832.html#msg144832

Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Myster on October 22, 2019, 11:44:03 AM
At least at JBF they had somewhat of a sense of humour:

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,3669.msg144832.html#msg144832 (http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,3669.msg144832.html#msg144832)
Definitely the internet equivalent of "Loose Women".
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 22, 2019, 11:52:04 AM
Definitely the internet equivalent of "Loose Women".

Yes but no one took offence and I can confirm at least one is from the North as we had several lengthy telephone conversations. 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 22, 2019, 05:49:32 PM
I refuse to go round in circles on these points I've set out my position in previous posts and I've already said that imo those who object to my comments about sausage/chips and a play on word over book are seeking control rather than offended per se. 

Yes I am a moderator and not a robotic one!  Light-hearted banter about regional/international cuisine and accents is not against forum rules and others here will testify to the fact that I often make what I consider benign jokes about such matters on other boards.
I thought John recently proscribed the use of the word you kept using in a provocative manner?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 22, 2019, 05:50:28 PM
Hardly surprising. Neither 'mad' or 'bint' are terms which a woman is likely to be pleased about.
What about “old” though?  Surely the worst of the three!
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 22, 2019, 05:53:19 PM
At least at JBF they had somewhat of a sense of humour:

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,3669.msg144832.html#msg144832
I read to the end of the first page and came across this comment from the moderator
“Why have we got this thread about June and Sheila. Personally I find it disrespectful.  We dont know what their relationship was like...only other peoples opinions. Imo”

As you all appear to be having a bit of “light hearted banter” about two murder victims I can’t help but see her point.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 23, 2019, 09:33:01 AM
I read to the end of the first page and came across this comment from the moderator
“Why have we got this thread about June and Sheila. Personally I find it disrespectful.  We dont know what their relationship was like...only other peoples opinions. Imo”

As you all appear to be having a bit of “light hearted banter” about two murder victims I can’t help but see her point.

Your post is a gross distortion of the facts:

- I don't believe the moderator you refer to was a moderator at the time of making the post you have quoted.

- Admin then and now is a non-practicing UK criminal defence barrister who clearly did not object to the posts hence they are still accessible.

- The post you have quoted was made by an adoptive mother who refused to entertain that the difficult relationship that clearly existed between Mrs Bamber and her adopted daughter, Sheila Caffell nee Bamber, might well have had something to do with adoption.

- The posts involving banter do not refer to the murder victims and revolve around stereotypical cultural differences between northerners and southerners and other such light-hearted banter.   
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 23, 2019, 09:50:34 AM
I thought John recently proscribed the use of the word you kept using in a provocative manner?

Unfortunately it seems this particular board is unable to function based on the high level rules set out on the homepage therefore John is required to intervene in a way that isn't required on other boards here. 

What is provocative to some is intolerance for others. 

GA has to date been able to publish a book claiming the McCanns accidentally killed MM and covered it up despite the McCanns attempts to stop him via various legal means and courts.  They have received an onslaught of bad publicity from across the globe coupled with death threats.  Do you really think they are bothered about some faceless entity on a discussion board referring to KM's PB Liverpudlian style?  If they are not bothered then why would it bother anyone here?  As I said imo its all about control. 

And if those here are so bothered what are they doing to wage the war elsewhere which unlike comments here is quite vitriolic?     
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 23, 2019, 10:02:06 AM
Your post is a gross distortion of the facts:

- I don't believe the moderator you refer to was a moderator at the time of making the post you have quoted.

- Admin then and now is a non-practicing UK criminal defence barrister who clearly did not object to the posts hence they are still accessible.

- The post you have quoted was made by an adoptive mother who refused to entertain that the difficult relationship that clearly existed between Mrs Bamber and her adopted daughter, Sheila Caffell nee Bamber, might well have had something to do with adoption.

- The posts involving banter do not refer to the murder victims and revolve around stereotypical cultural differences between northerners and southerners and other such light-hearted banter.   
You make out as if I deliberately distorted "the facts" - as if I should have known already all the points you make.  This one fact remains however - at least one member of that forum found your banter disrespectful, so your claim that "at least at the JBF they had a sense of humour" is not entirely accurate.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 23, 2019, 10:17:25 AM
Unfortunately it seems this particular board is unable to function based on the high level rules set out on the homepage therefore John is required to intervene in a way that isn't required on other boards here. 

What is provocative to some is intolerance for others. 

GA has to date been able to publish a book claiming the McCanns accidentally killed MM and covered it up despite the McCanns attempts to stop him via various legal means and courts.  They have received an onslaught of bad publicity from across the globe coupled with death threats.  Do you really think they are bothered about some faceless entity on a discussion board referring to KM's PB Liverpudlian style?  If they are not bothered then why would it bother anyone here?  As I said imo its all about control. 

And if those here are so bothered what are they doing to wage the war elsewhere which unlike comments here is quite vitriolic?   
I have already answered this question at least twice but it seems you are determined to pursue your strawman argument.  For the third and last time, this is nothing to do with what the McCanns feel or think, it was about your role as a moderator and your insistence on continuing to use a word that you know is provocative.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 23, 2019, 10:38:40 AM
Unfortunately it seems this particular board is unable to function based on the high level rules set out on the homepage therefore John is required to intervene in a way that isn't required on other boards here. 

What is provocative to some is intolerance for others. 

GA has to date been able to publish a book claiming the McCanns accidentally killed MM and covered it up despite the McCanns attempts to stop him via various legal means and courts.  They have received an onslaught of bad publicity from across the globe coupled with death threats.  Do you really think they are bothered about some faceless entity on a discussion board referring to KM's PB Liverpudlian style?  If they are not bothered then why would it bother anyone here?  As I said imo its all about control. 

And if those here are so bothered what are they doing to wage the war elsewhere which unlike comments here is quite vitriolic?   

John removed a post you directed at me... I hadn't complained but he obviously thought it was goading

Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 23, 2019, 10:42:28 AM
You make out as if I deliberately distorted "the facts" - as if I should have known already all the points you make.  This one fact remains however - at least one member of that forum found your banter disrespectful, so your claim that "at least at the JBF they had a sense of humour" is not entirely accurate.

One member objected to ANY comment about adoption and I've explained as best I can, without betraying confidences (which btw John is aware of), why.  Nothing to do with the light-hearted banter about stereotypical cultural differences between northerners and southerners.  And as I pointed out Admin, a non-practicing UK criminal defence barrister, ultimately decided what went and what didn't and given the posts are years old he clearly deemed what was posted entirely acceptable.

At the end of the day people online and offline object to all manner of things.  If everyone pandered to what the minority object to life as we know wouldn't continue. 



Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 23, 2019, 10:53:21 AM
John removed a post you directed at me... I hadn't complained but he obviously thought it was goading


John is perfectly entitled to override any decisions made by mods as he did with the recent image you objected to.

I was horrified when I watched a world cup qualifying game last week, England v Bulgaria, to see and hear racist chants leveled at black players and Nazi salutes.  This imo is where the line needs to be drawn not silly plays on words as experienced here. 

This board is completely different from other boards here and elsewhere.  I still haven't read Pathfinder's theory yet which is behind an iron like curtain.  My preference is that all views, within reason, should be tolerated and debated without fear of censorship. 

Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 23, 2019, 11:17:32 AM
John is perfectly entitled to override any decisions made by mods as he did with the recent image you objected to.

I was horrified when I watched a world cup qualifying game last week, England v Bulgaria, to see and hear racist chants leveled at black players and Nazi salutes.  This imo is where the line needs to be drawn not silly plays on words as experienced here. 

This board is completely different from other boards here and elsewhere.  I still haven't read Pathfinder's theory yet which is behind an iron like curtain.  My preference is that all views, within reason, should be tolerated and debated without fear of censorship.

The problem is the line has already been drawn... I was warned for referring to amaral as a convicted criminal... Even though he is.  I'm in favour of less rules.. But it appears other posters, are not and ultimately it's Johns decision.
I happened to mention Vanessa May was an Olympic skier... The post was, removed by a mod as I didn't supply a cite quickly enough
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 23, 2019, 11:22:41 AM
John is perfectly entitled to override any decisions made by mods as he did with the recent image you objected to.

I was horrified when I watched a world cup qualifying game last week, England v Bulgaria, to see and hear racist chants leveled at black players and Nazi salutes.  This imo is where the line needs to be drawn not silly plays on words as experienced here. 

This board is completely different from other boards here and elsewhere.  I still haven't read Pathfinder's theory yet which is behind an iron like curtain.  My preference is that all views, within reason, should be tolerated and debated without fear of censorship.

Are there any other boards where two parents who have not been arrested.... Who we are told, are not suspects and there is no evidence against them... Are, accused on a daily basis as being guilty of some quite serious crimes
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 23, 2019, 11:45:01 AM
Are there any other boards where two parents who have not been arrested.... Who we are told, are not suspects and there is no evidence against them... Are, accused on a daily basis as being guilty if sone quite serious crimes

None spring to mind but even when those accused are put on trial and convicted for infanticide doesn't unfortunately make the verdict the correct one eg Lindy Chamberlain, Sally Clarke and Trupti Patel. 

Imo much of the problem lies with the experts who seem unable to communicate in unambiguous terms exactly what any evidence means and doesn't mean in a manner that lay people can understand and agree upon.  This then proliferates in that the media, book authors etc misunderstand and misinterpret such info which in turn the general public pick up on.   
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 23, 2019, 12:42:55 PM
None spring to mind but even when those accused are put on trial and convicted for infanticide doesn't unfortunately make the verdict the correct one eg Lindy Chamberlain, Sally Clarke and Trupti Patel. 

Imo much of the problem lies with the experts who seem unable to communicate in unambiguous terms exactly what any evidence means and doesn't mean in a manner that lay people can understand and agree upon.  This then proliferates in that the media, book authors etc misunderstand and misinterpret such info which in turn the general public pick up on.   ...

I think the experts have explained perfectly well... But some don't want to accept it..there's a faie amount in amarals book that simply isn't true... But again people have believed him
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: The General on October 23, 2019, 12:52:20 PM
I think the experts have explained perfectly well... But some don't want to accept it..there's a faie amount in amarals book that simply isn't true... But again people have believed him
What specifically isn't true? And then what is the truth?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 23, 2019, 01:12:16 PM
hehehe....dogs. I thought it would take at least until page 2!
Keep going.
Is this on topic? I hope so, can't wait to finally hear the truth.

You asked a question... Don't complain..
1. If you want, an answer
2 . If you want me to list others
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: The General on October 23, 2019, 01:20:36 PM
You asked a question... Don't complain..
1. If you want, an answer
2 . If you want me to list others
Give me the truth goddammit.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 23, 2019, 01:22:59 PM
Give me the truth goddammit.

I've just given you one very good example and you take the p... There is more but why should I bother
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 23, 2019, 01:28:35 PM
One member objected to ANY comment about adoption and I've explained as best I can, without betraying confidences (which btw John is aware of), why.  Nothing to do with the light-hearted banter about stereotypical cultural differences between northerners and southerners.  And as I pointed out Admin, a non-practicing UK criminal defence barrister, ultimately decided what went and what didn't and given the posts are years old he clearly deemed what was posted entirely acceptable.

At the end of the day people online and offline object to all manner of things.  If everyone pandered to what the minority object to life as we know wouldn't continue.
I don't really give a toss what was posted years ago on the Jeremy Bamber forum - this is about what you as a moderator of this forum continued to post KNOWING FULL WELL it winds people up.  If you were just another WUM then fair enough, but you're not, you're a moderator - you're supposed to keep the peace not provoke a reaction - do you still not get it?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 23, 2019, 01:33:44 PM
I don't really give a toss what was posted years ago on the Jeremy Bamber forum - this is about what you as a moderator of this forum continued to post KNOWING FULL WELL it winds people up.  If you were just another WUM then fair enough, but you're not, you're a moderator - you're supposed to keep the peace not provoke a reaction - do you still not get it?

That is precisely the point.... Surely it's, the mods job to keep the forym running smoothly... Not to sow discord deliberately
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 23, 2019, 01:51:16 PM
I don't really give a toss what was posted years ago on the Jeremy Bamber forum - this is about what you as a moderator of this forum continued to post KNOWING FULL WELL it winds people up.  If you were just another WUM then fair enough, but you're not, you're a moderator - you're supposed to keep the peace not provoke a reaction - do you still not get it?

I find members here, whether they be moderators or posters, get wound up by all sorts even abbreviating names of the main protagonists by using their initials.  If I pandered to the whims of everyone I wouldn't make a single post which I rather suspect is the objective of some!

And it isn't just for moderators to keep the peace.  Everyone has a role to play in the smooth running of the forum.  As I see it there are too few here who are actually interested in discussing the facts of the case as they see them and too many who want nothing more than to engage in spats of one description or another. 

John has intervened and added the word under question to the library of banned words so the matter has been concluded.  Any further references to such will be edited/removed.   
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 23, 2019, 01:56:10 PM
That is precisely the point.... Surely it's, the mods job to keep the forym running smoothly... Not to sow discord deliberately

It is the role of everyone to contribute to the smooth running of the forum.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 23, 2019, 02:21:17 PM
It is the role of everyone to contribute to the smooth running of the forum.
So having been avowedly against censorship you are now censoring me.  OK.....!
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 23, 2019, 03:18:05 PM
So having been avowedly against censorship you are now censoring me.  OK.....!

I am against censorship of case related posts eg Pathfinder's theory that has to be hidden away.  This has nothing to do with editing and removing content that amounts to playground spats. 



Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 23, 2019, 03:35:53 PM
I am against censorship of case related posts eg Pathfinder's theory that has to be hidden away.  This has nothing to do with editing and removing content that amounts to playground spats.
OK Pussy.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 23, 2019, 04:51:28 PM
OK Pussy.

 8((()*/
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 23, 2019, 05:57:54 PM
8((()*/
Is it time to get back to slagging off Kate’s book again?  Frankly I’m disgusted by the font used which I need a magnifying glass to read owing to my partial sightedness and one of the pages gave me a paper cut.  What an inconsiderate cow she is! 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: sadie on October 23, 2019, 06:13:53 PM
Is it time to get back to slagging off Kate’s book again?  Frankly I’m disgusted by the font used which I need a magnifying glass to read owing to my partial sightedness and one of the pages gave me a paper cut.  What an inconsiderate cow she is!

It wont fit in my bookcase. 

Too bad

Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on October 23, 2019, 09:47:15 PM
It wont fit in my bookcase. 

Too bad

oh never mind when Brexit comes into play I hear TOILET paper will increase in price.. could be useful.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 23, 2019, 09:53:35 PM
oh never mind when Brexit comes into play I hear TOILET paper will increase in price.. could be useful.
You’re wasted on here.  Really wasted.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on October 23, 2019, 09:54:39 PM
I am against censorship of case related posts eg Pathfinder's theory that has to be hidden away.  This has nothing to do with editing and removing content that amounts to playground spats.

This is adult life for some people, they goad and seek a reply to goad again. Johnshould have put a stop to this years ago. Any post which does not add to the conversation should be removed instantly. The censorship is ugly and should be challenged.

 So thank you for trying Holly.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on October 23, 2019, 09:56:02 PM
You’re wasted on here.  Really wasted.

Youy love me on here  you get to show your real nasty self!  hahahaha
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 23, 2019, 09:59:46 PM
Youy love me on here  you get to show your real nasty self!  hahahaha
lthey goad and seek a reply to goad again” - Miss Taken Identity
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 24, 2019, 09:01:19 AM
Is it time to get back to slagging off Kate’s book again?  Frankly I’m disgusted by the font used which I need a magnifying glass to read owing to my partial sightedness and one of the pages gave me a paper cut.  What an inconsiderate cow she is!

What positive feedback can you provide to counteract any negativity? 

I tend to flit around in a book and then read it from cover to cover which I've done with DC's but not yet KM's. 

I disagree with the chapter 'Missing, Abducted And Exploited Children: Did You Know' and other references I've read to missing children scattered throughout as I think MM's disappearance/abduction is unique and attempting to place it with other disappearances/abductions is imo unhelpful in trying to work out what happened. 

MM disappeared from a holiday apartment which was unsecured and without any sort of continuous adult supervision which makes it unique given her age.  Plus this was not a one off occurrence but happened over 5 consecutive evenings which allowed any would be abductor to gather intelligence, directly and/or indirectly from others, to abduct MM in what would have been a very low risk operation.     

I don't see how MM's disappearance can be compared with say a child who is out and about on his/her own, or with siblings/friends, at an age appropriate time who is then snatched by an opportunist from a public place?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 24, 2019, 09:11:33 AM
What positive feedback can you provide to counteract any negativity? 

I tend to flit around in a book and then read it from cover to cover which I've done with DC's but not yet KM's. 

I disagree with the chapter 'Missing, Abducted And Exploited Children: Did You Know' and other references I've read to missing children scattered throughout as I think MM's disappearance/abduction is unique and attempting to place it with other disappearances/abductions is imo unhelpful in trying to work out what happened. 

MM disappeared from a holiday apartment which was unsecured and without any sort of continuous adult supervision which makes it unique given her age.  Plus this was not a one off occurrence but happened over 5 consecutive evenings which allowed any would be abductor to gather intelligence, directly and/or indirectly from others, to abduct MM in what would have been a very low risk operation.     

I don't see how MM's disappearance can be compared with say a child who is out and about on his/her own, or with siblings/friends, at an age appropriate time who is then snatched by an opportunist from a public place?
That’s your problem.  Why shouldn’t Kate draw comparisons with similar cases?  Of course no two cases are going to be identical, but young girls have been taken from their places of residence by strangers, and trying to understand why this happens and what sort of person does it, and that it is possible to be kidnapped by a stranger and turn up alive years later is valid IMO.  What harm does it do?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 24, 2019, 09:56:40 AM
That’s your problem.  Why shouldn’t Kate draw comparisons with similar cases?  Of course no two cases are going to be identical, but young girls have been taken from their places of residence by strangers, and trying to understand why this happens and what sort of person does it, and that it is possible to be kidnapped by a stranger and turn up alive years later is valid IMO.  What harm does it do?

Its not a problem for me at all as I am not intimately involved with MM nor am I tasked with investigating her disappearance on a paid/professional basis. 

The only case I can think of where a young girl was abducted/disappeared from a property which afforded the opportunity of making it secure is that of Alesha MacPhail.  According to the following the key was left in the front door:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6683052/alesha-macphail-missing-dead-isle-of-bute-scotland-body-found/

Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 24, 2019, 09:57:26 AM
What positive feedback can you provide to counteract any negativity? 

I tend to flit around in a book and then read it from cover to cover which I've done with DC's but not yet KM's. 

I disagree with the chapter 'Missing, Abducted And Exploited Children: Did You Know' and other references I've read to missing children scattered throughout as I think MM's disappearance/abduction is unique and attempting to place it with other disappearances/abductions is imo unhelpful in trying to work out what happened. 

MM disappeared from a holiday apartment which was unsecured and without any sort of continuous adult supervision which makes it unique given her age.  Plus this was not a one off occurrence but happened over 5 consecutive evenings which allowed any would be abductor to gather intelligence, directly and/or indirectly from others, to abduct MM in what would have been a very low risk operation.     

I don't see how MM's disappearance can be compared with say a child who is out and about on his/her own, or with siblings/friends, at an age appropriate time who is then snatched by an opportunist from a public place?

do you think your opinion has any importance whatsoever?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 24, 2019, 09:58:50 AM
do you think your opinion has any importance whatsoever?

It remains to be seen.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 24, 2019, 10:07:21 AM
It remains to be seen.

I said do you think....you obviosly do....I think you have a misplaced belief in the significance of your opinon...Dunning Kruger.

Afaiac we are just observers way on the sidelines.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 24, 2019, 10:13:57 AM
Its not a problem for me at all as I am not intimately involved with MM nor am I tasked with investigating her disappearance on a paid/professional basis. 

The only case I can think of where a young girl was abducted/disappeared from a property which afforded the opportunity of making it secure is that of Alesha MacPhail.  According to the following the key was left in the front door:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6683052/alesha-macphail-missing-dead-isle-of-bute-scotland-body-found/
It obviously is a problem for you because you have been moved to publicly criticise Kate for mentioning other similar cases.  Can you explain why this irks you so? 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 24, 2019, 10:36:03 AM
It obviously is a problem for you because you have been moved to publicly criticise Kate for mentioning other similar cases.  Can you explain why this irks you so?

Only because I think it downplays unique features surrounding MM's disappearance which imo are key to understanding and working out what happened.   
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 24, 2019, 11:14:29 AM
Only because I think it downplays unique features surrounding MM's disappearance which imo are key to understanding and working out what happened.   
IMO that is an absurd conclusion on your part.  Do you SERIOUSLY believe Kate's book downplays the unique situation of Madeleine's disappearance?  Incredible...
So what do you think Kate should have done to highlight the unique situation of her daughter's disappearance more than she already did?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 24, 2019, 11:27:16 AM
do you think your opinion has any importance whatsoever?
Please stop making statements of this nature.  We are all entitled to have an opinion. 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 24, 2019, 11:29:02 AM
Please stop making statements of this nature.  We are all entitled to have an opinion.

im not against anyone having an opinion...what gives you that idea..
I have an opinion....i dont think any opinions here are of any real consequence
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 24, 2019, 11:35:37 AM
im not against anyone having an opinion...what gives you that idea..
I have an opinion....i dont think any opinions here are of any real consequence
OK that is your opinion, but as a moderator here trying to improve the quality of the posts on the forum ask members to stop picking on members for their expressed opinion.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Erngath on October 24, 2019, 11:37:10 AM
OK that is your opinion, but as a moderator here trying to improve the quality of the posts on the forum ask members to stop picking on members for their expressed opinion.

However Carly's opinion of supporters adoration of Kate McCann is deemed a "quality post"?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: jassi on October 24, 2019, 11:46:18 AM
However Carly's opinion of supporters adoration of Kate McCann is deemed a "quality post"?


Really?  What do you base that  on - or is it just your opinion ?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 24, 2019, 11:49:37 AM
OK that is your opinion, but as a moderator here trying to improve the quality of the posts on the forum ask members to stop picking on members for their expressed opinion.

Then stop picking on me for mine.  I don't see how both you and Holly can support a post by carly criticising all sceptics... Is that your definition of quality.. It was goading and should have been removed
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 24, 2019, 12:14:39 PM
Then stop picking on me for mine.  I don't see how both you and Holly can support a post by carly criticising all sceptics... Is that your definition of quality.. It was goading and should have been removed

Please move on Davel.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 24, 2019, 12:16:38 PM
Please move on Davel.

I've suggested this was left initially... I'm happy to move on
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 24, 2019, 12:24:50 PM
I've suggested this was left initially... I'm happy to move on

 8((()*/
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Lace on October 24, 2019, 01:34:37 PM
oh never mind when Brexit comes into play I hear TOILET paper will increase in price.. could be useful.

There you go then. *giggles*     ^*&&
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 24, 2019, 03:52:11 PM
IMO that is an absurd conclusion on your part.  Do you SERIOUSLY believe Kate's book downplays the unique situation of Madeleine's disappearance?  Incredible...
So what do you think Kate should have done to highlight the unique situation of her daughter's disappearance more than she already did?

Yes and I am not just referring to the finished article but the events as told.  Specifically the McCanns insistence that what they were doing of an evening was akin to eating in the garden at home with the children asleep in their bedrooms when clearly it wasn't.  Also playing down the fact the patio doors were unsecured. 

It was the following evening, Sunday 3rd June - exactly a month after Madeleine's abduction - that Gerry and I opened up a little more to each other and shared some of the thoughts and anxieties that had been quietly tormenting us both; thoughts and anxieties that perhaps we hadn't felt able or ready to voice up to now.

We'd been sitting alone at the table, working at our computers.  It was quiet and the lights were low.  Though I can't remember how the conversation started, I'm glad it did.  We'd talked through the guilt we felt about not having been in that apartment with the children; about having left the patio doors unlocked.  How we found it hard to comprehend that we could have been so naive.  We acknowledged the possibility that Madeleine might no longer be alive; the possibility that we might never find out what had happened to her.  Would we ever be able to return to our home, the home we had shared with her?  Maybe we should move elsewhere.  Where?  We discussed the need we felt to do our utmost to prevent this from happening to another child; to prevent another family going through what we going through.  We have to ensure that something positive for someone, even if it wasn't us, came out of this horrific experience.

For me, the honest exposure of this buried poison was like lancing a boil.  Admitting these secret fears and concerns, bringing them out into the open and sharing them with the only other person who was persecuted in the same way, made them suddenly a little easier to understand and to manage.  Strengthened and comforted, I fell asleep that night more peacefully than I had in many days.


If they were only able to open up to each other about the patio doors on 3rd June then a whole month had passed when they were being reticent with what is arguably one of the most important features of the case.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 24, 2019, 03:54:43 PM
Yes and I am not just referring to the finished article but the events as told.  Specifically the McCanns insistence that what they were doing of an evening was akin to eating in the garden at home with the children asleep in their bedrooms when clearly it wasn't.  Also playing down the fact the patio doors were unsecured. 

It was the following evening, Sunday 3rd June - exactly a month after Madeleine's abduction - that Gerry and I opened up a little more to each other and shared some of the thoughts and anxieties that had been quietly tormenting us both; thoughts and anxieties that perhaps we hadn't felt able or ready to voice up to now.

We'd been sitting alone at the table, working at our computers.  It was quiet and the lights were low.  Though I can't remember how the conversation started, I'm glad it did.  We'd talked through the guilt we felt about not having been in that apartment with the children; about having left the patio doors unlocked.  How we found it hard to comprehend that we could have been so naive.  We acknowledged the possibility that Madeleine might no longer be alive; the possibility that we might never find out what had happened to her.  Would we ever be able to return to our home, the home we had shared with her?  Maybe we should move elsewhere.  Where?  We discussed the need we felt to do our utmost to prevent this from happening to another child; to prevent another family going through what we going through.  We have to ensure that something positive for someone, even if it wasn't us, came out of this horrific experience.

For me, the honest exposure of this buried poison was like lancing a boil.  Admitting these secret fears and concerns, bringing them out into the open and sharing them with the only other person who was persecuted in the same way, made them suddenly a little easier to understand and to manage.  Strengthened and comforted, I fell asleep that night more peacefully than I had in many days.


If they were only able to open up to each other about the patio doors on 3rd June then a whole month had passed when they were being reticent with what is arguably one of the most important features of the case.

Yet a, poster on this forum has done exactly the same and not one word if criticism...
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: The General on October 24, 2019, 04:31:41 PM
Yet a, poster on this forum has done exactly the same and not one word if criticism...
Probably because it didn't lead them to losing a child.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 24, 2019, 04:40:33 PM
Probably because it didn't lead them to losing a child.

So it's OK to leave a child in an unlocked apt... You don't make a lot if sense
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: The General on October 24, 2019, 04:45:35 PM
So it's OK to leave a child in an unlocked apt... You don't make a lot if sense
You miss the point; if a child doesn't go missing then nobody notices. Both are equally irresponsible, but with polar outcomes and probably totally different contexts. Then factor in the audience - the much vaunted sceptics / supporters axis that populate this board and the natural bias therein - is it that surprising?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 24, 2019, 04:56:17 PM
You miss the point; if a child doesn't go missing then nobody notices. Both are equally irresponsible, but with polar outcomes and probably totally different contexts. Then factor in the audience - the much vaunted sceptics / supporters axis that populate this board and the natural bias therein - is it that surprising?

I haven't missed any point.... It's illogical that the mccanns have been described as shit parents but no criticism of a poster who did exactly the same
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: The General on October 24, 2019, 05:20:28 PM
I haven't missed any point.... It's illogical that the mccanns have been described as shit parents but no criticism of a poster who did exactly the same
No it's not. I don't know the poster or the circumstances, but the context may be different. I'm not explaining it again, not even for the all seeing eye.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 24, 2019, 05:25:34 PM
No it's not. I don't know the poster or the circumstances, but the context may be different. I'm not explaining it again, not even for the all seeing eye.
You think the context may be different  ..it was, exactly the same
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: The General on October 24, 2019, 05:36:38 PM
You think the context may be different  ..it was, exactly the same
Exactly? In Portugal? 5 nights running? Same distance? Same time frames? Same 'checking' regime? In May? 3 kids? Previous nights child mentions crying / being left alone? One child's supposed propensity to wander during bedtime hours?
Maybe you're right.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 24, 2019, 05:51:21 PM
Exactly? In Portugal? 5 nights running? Same distance? Same time frames? Same 'checking' regime? In May? 3 kids? Previous nights child mentions crying / being left alone? One child's supposed propensity to wander during bedtime hours?
Maybe you're right.

Sorry you're right... No child named Madeleine ..not the same
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 24, 2019, 06:23:01 PM
Yes and I am not just referring to the finished article but the events as told.  Specifically the McCanns insistence that what they were doing of an evening was akin to eating in the garden at home with the children asleep in their bedrooms when clearly it wasn't.  Also playing down the fact the patio doors were unsecured. 

It was the following evening, Sunday 3rd June - exactly a month after Madeleine's abduction - that Gerry and I opened up a little more to each other and shared some of the thoughts and anxieties that had been quietly tormenting us both; thoughts and anxieties that perhaps we hadn't felt able or ready to voice up to now.

We'd been sitting alone at the table, working at our computers.  It was quiet and the lights were low.  Though I can't remember how the conversation started, I'm glad it did.  We'd talked through the guilt we felt about not having been in that apartment with the children; about having left the patio doors unlocked.  How we found it hard to comprehend that we could have been so naive.  We acknowledged the possibility that Madeleine might no longer be alive; the possibility that we might never find out what had happened to her.  Would we ever be able to return to our home, the home we had shared with her?  Maybe we should move elsewhere.  Where?  We discussed the need we felt to do our utmost to prevent this from happening to another child; to prevent another family going through what we going through.  We have to ensure that something positive for someone, even if it wasn't us, came out of this horrific experience.

For me, the honest exposure of this buried poison was like lancing a boil.  Admitting these secret fears and concerns, bringing them out into the open and sharing them with the only other person who was persecuted in the same way, made them suddenly a little easier to understand and to manage.  Strengthened and comforted, I fell asleep that night more peacefully than I had in many days.


If they were only able to open up to each other about the patio doors on 3rd June then a whole month had passed when they were being reticent with what is arguably one of the most important features of the case.
Your post doesn’t answer my question and sets up a particularly nonsensical strawman argument imo.  Once again you are adopting a well worn tactic of using Kate’s candid revelations as a stick with which to beat her.  If only she’d had the foresight to realise that every single sentence of her book would be held up as evidence of some wrongdoing or other perhaps she wouldn’t have bothered, which would have denied so many people like you so much entertainment.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: The General on October 24, 2019, 07:20:39 PM
Sorry you're right... No child named Madeleine ..not the same
So you agree different contexts?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 24, 2019, 07:24:24 PM
So you agree different contexts?

Different names... Not context... In almost identical circumstances
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 24, 2019, 07:38:27 PM
So you agree different contexts?
I’m running you a close second in the deleted posts game.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 24, 2019, 07:41:11 PM
I’m running you a close second in the deleted posts game.

I think the best thing to do is not to post.... If moderators want to over moderate the forum let them do it
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: The General on October 24, 2019, 08:05:36 PM
I think the best thing to do is not to post.... If moderators want to over moderate the forum let them do it
One out all out? You all hit the gate, I'll cut the top off an oil drum.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Brietta on October 24, 2019, 09:25:39 PM
Your post doesn’t answer my question and sets up a particularly nonsensical strawman argument imo.  Once again you are adopting a well worn tactic of using Kate’s candid revelations as a stick with which to beat her.  If only she’d had the foresight to realise that every single sentence of her book would be held up as evidence of some wrongdoing or other perhaps she wouldn’t have bothered, which would have denied so many people like you so much entertainment.

I think the resentment felt and expressed whenever and wherever possible is not what Kate says in her book but the fact that she wrote it at all for the purpose of financing the continuation of the search for Madeleine.

No book ... no money ... no search to find out what happened to Madeleine.

Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 24, 2019, 11:00:20 PM
Your post doesn’t answer my question and sets up a particularly nonsensical strawman argument imo.  Once again you are adopting a well worn tactic of using Kate’s candid revelations as a stick with which to beat her.  If only she’d had the foresight to realise that every single sentence of her book would be held up as evidence of some wrongdoing or other perhaps she wouldn’t have bothered, which would have denied so many people like you so much entertainment.

I'm attempting to unearth the facts about what actually happened and if that makes uncomfortable reading for some then so be it. 

P73:

Even if there had been a baby-listening it would not have given our kids as much attention as our own visits did.  We were going into the apartments and looking as well as listening.  We later heard it was an option that had been chosen by many other parents at similar resorts before us.

YouTube Vid Reconstruction:

GM: (In response to MO saying why didn't I take those extra steps and go inside) At no point other than night did I go stick my head in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atfDV7imHHY&t=273s @ 13.26

So were they looking and listening as KM claimed or just listening as GM claimed?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 24, 2019, 11:46:01 PM
I'm attempting to unearth the facts about what actually happened and if that makes uncomfortable reading for some then so be it. 

P73:

Even if there had been a baby-listening it would not have given our kids as much attention as our own visits did.  We were going into the apartments and looking as well as listening.  We later heard it was an option that had been chosen by many other parents at similar resorts before us.

YouTube Vid Reconstruction:

GM: (In response to MO saying why didn't I take those extra steps and go inside) At no point other than night did I go stick my head in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atfDV7imHHY&t=273s @ 13.26

So were they looking and listening as KM claimed or just listening as GM claimed?
Given that you are certain Madeleine was abducted by a stranger from the room can I ask what difference you think it makes either way? 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: G-Unit on October 25, 2019, 06:59:03 AM
I'm attempting to unearth the facts about what actually happened and if that makes uncomfortable reading for some then so be it. 

P73:

Even if there had been a baby-listening it would not have given our kids as much attention as our own visits did.  We were going into the apartments and looking as well as listening.  We later heard it was an option that had been chosen by many other parents at similar resorts before us.

YouTube Vid Reconstruction:

GM: (In response to MO saying why didn't I take those extra steps and go inside) At no point other than night did I go stick my head in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atfDV7imHHY&t=273s @ 13.26

So were they looking and listening as KM claimed or just listening as GM claimed?

I don't think they were looking in the bedroom. Kate only looked in because the bedroom door slammed.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 25, 2019, 07:15:43 AM
I don't think they were looking in the bedroom. Kate only looked in because the bedroom door slammed.
Is it beyond the realm of possibility that they sometimes looked in, sometimes not?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: barrier on October 25, 2019, 07:43:02 AM
Is it beyond the realm of possibility that they sometimes looked in, sometimes not?

Given its never been tested in a court of law is it beyond the realms of possibility there was no checking.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 25, 2019, 08:17:46 AM
Given its never been tested in a court of law is it beyond the realms of possibility there was no checking.
yes, they checked on Thursday unless you believe everyone at the table was lying, and if they checked Thursday why not every other night?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 25, 2019, 08:50:06 AM
Given that you are certain Madeleine was abducted by a stranger from the room can I ask what difference you think it makes either way?

I don't think it does make much, if any, difference but I'm just interested in understanding how these cases get in such a pickle. 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 25, 2019, 09:00:31 AM
I don't think they were looking in the bedroom. Kate only looked in because the bedroom door slammed.

I agree especially as KM has told us repeatedly that initially she was unable to determine whether or not MM was in her bed and this was supposedly with the window open and shutter raised so what exactly was she seeing if she looked in on other occasions. 

Plus KM said initially she avoided putting the light on in the children's room at all costs for fear of waking them up and GM claims they were not using the front door to carry out the checks as they did not want to generate any noise. 

I think they may have ventured just inside the apartment but did not routinely open the bedroom door which we are told by GM was left ajar by approx 10 cm. 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 25, 2019, 09:11:31 AM
Given its never been tested in a court of law is it beyond the realms of possibility there was no checking.

Well we know on 3rd May JW claims he chatted with GM around 5A at circa 9 pm.

I think the OC employees at tapas confirmed the various protagonists would leave their seats from time-to-time but I've no idea where the loos were situated to know whether or not they were simply off to the loo or off to check the children.   
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: barrier on October 25, 2019, 09:14:15 AM
yes, they checked on Thursday unless you believe everyone at the table was lying, and if they checked Thursday why not every other night?


Yes you've read accounts of such,thats it.

The child catcher will confirm it,if ever they find out who wot dunnit.

 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: barrier on October 25, 2019, 09:15:51 AM
Well we know on 3rd May JW claims he chatted with GM around 5A at circa 9 pm.

I think the OC employees at tapas confirmed the various protagonists would leave their seats from time-to-time but I've no idea where the loos were situated to know whether or not they were simply off to the loo or off to check the children.

Precisely,no one knows for sure.Under oath may reveal something different,not that it'll ever see the inside of a court imo.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Anthro on October 25, 2019, 09:48:38 AM
Hi Davel, since you are referring to me, the following:

- although I said ‘exact circumstances’, I did not elaborate on much detail. If that was misleading, I wish to correct it by providing the following:

- the particular visit I was referring to was to a resort in Mauritius for seven nights in December 2017.
- at the time our children were 12 and 10 years old, respectively.
- they preferred to stay in the hotel room and relax, watching satellite television after a busy day filled with activities.
- many families at this particular resort had the same arrangement with their children and presumably other guests, staff etc would have noticed a pattern over the days for different families at the resort.
- the hotel room was on the first floor, not ground level.
- the front door was locked by means of a parental/security code.
- the patio doors were left open from where they could see and hear us and vice versa.
- we all were in cellphone contact, eg. our children would call or whatsapp asking us to come upstairs and bring them down for a milkshake, etc.
- they were not allowed to order room service when we were not present in the room, for the reason that the front door was out of sight and we did not feel comfortable that a stranger/s would have access to the room via that door.
- we made a request at reception that no room service be allowed to our room, unless it was me or my husband requesting it.
- as I have pointed out previously, it should be contextually viewed. Where we live, space is abundant and we are used to dining, sleeping, visiting etc in an urban home space of 3000 square metres.
- on our previous visits to Mauritius, our children accompanied us everywhere, except when they were occupied at their kids’ club. The reason being: we regarded them as too young and dependent to consider that choice. On these visits their ages were 4 and 2; and 8 and 6.
- I certainly do not regard me and my husband as irresponsible parents in the choices we make for our family, rather the opposite of tending to be overprotective with its related issues.
- I would not expect members on the forum to criticise me in the manner, as you have suggested should be done, leveled at the Tapas group.
- in fact, I find your suggestion similar to an inciting incident.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Anthro on October 25, 2019, 09:59:07 AM
Resort in Mauritius:
Green - dining area
Red - hotel room

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: G-Unit on October 25, 2019, 10:18:48 AM
Well we know on 3rd May JW claims he chatted with GM around 5A at circa 9 pm.

I think the OC employees at tapas confirmed the various protagonists would leave their seats from time-to-time but I've no idea where the loos were situated to know whether or not they were simply off to the loo or off to check the children.

Just to be precise JW gave the time as between 8:45 and 9:15.

I wonder if GMc flushed the toilet before he left the apartment, with his concerns about noise?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 25, 2019, 10:19:16 AM
So it's OK to leave a child in an unlocked apt... You don't make a lot if sense
It appears so as long as there is the regular welfare checks on the child.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: G-Unit on October 25, 2019, 10:49:58 AM
Hi Davel, since you are referring to me, the following:

- although I said ‘exact circumstances’, I did not elaborate on much detail. If that was misleading, I wish to correct it by providing the following:

- the particular visit I was referring to was to a resort in Mauritius for seven nights in December 2017.
- at the time our children were 12 and 10 years old, respectively.
- they preferred to stay in the hotel room and relax, watching satellite television after a busy day filled with activities.
- many families at this particular resort had the same arrangement with their children and presumably other guests, staff etc would have noticed a pattern over the days for different families at the resort.
- the hotel room was on the first floor, not ground level.
- the front door was locked by means of a parental/security code.
- the patio doors were left open from where they could see and hear us and vice versa.
- we all were in cellphone contact, eg. our children would call or whatsapp asking us to come upstairs and bring them down for a milkshake, etc.
- they were not allowed to order room service when we were not present in the room, for the reason that the front door was out of sight and we did not feel comfortable that a stranger/s would have access to the room via that door.
- we made a request at reception that no room service be allowed to our room, unless it was me or my husband requesting it.
- as I have pointed out previously, it should be contextually viewed. Where we live, space is abundant and we are used to dining, sleeping, visiting etc in an urban home space of 3000 square metres.
- on our previous visits to Mauritius, our children accompanied us everywhere, except when they were occupied at their kids’ club. The reason being: we regarded them as too young and dependent to consider that choice. On these visits their ages were 4 and 2; and 8 and 6.
- I certainly do not regard me and my husband as irresponsible parents in the choices we make for our family, rather the opposite of tending to be overprotective with its related issues.
- I would not expect members on the forum to criticise me in the manner, as you have suggested should be done, leveled at the Tapas group.
- in fact, I find your suggestion similar to an inciting incident.

Not related to what the McCanns did in any way whatsoever then. I wonder why it was even mentioned in the first place?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 25, 2019, 10:50:51 AM
Hi Davel, since you are referring to me, the following:

- although I said ‘exact circumstances’, I did not elaborate on much detail. If that was misleading, I wish to correct it by providing the following:

- the particular visit I was referring to was to a resort in Mauritius for seven nights in December 2017.
- at the time our children were 12 and 10 years old, respectively.
- they preferred to stay in the hotel room and relax, watching satellite television after a busy day filled with activities.
- many families at this particular resort had the same arrangement with their children and presumably other guests, staff etc would have noticed a pattern over the days for different families at the resort.
- the hotel room was on the first floor, not ground level.
- the front door was locked by means of a parental/security code.
- the patio doors were left open from where they could see and hear us and vice versa.
- we all were in cellphone contact, eg. our children would call or whatsapp asking us to come upstairs and bring them down for a milkshake, etc.
- they were not allowed to order room service when we were not present in the room, for the reason that the front door was out of sight and we did not feel comfortable that a stranger/s would have access to the room via that door.
- we made a request at reception that no room service be allowed to our room, unless it was me or my husband requesting it.
- as I have pointed out previously, it should be contextually viewed. Where we live, space is abundant and we are used to dining, sleeping, visiting etc in an urban home space of 3000 square metres.
- on our previous visits to Mauritius, our children accompanied us everywhere, except when they were occupied at their kids’ club. The reason being: we regarded them as too young and dependent to consider that choice. On these visits their ages were 4 and 2; and 8 and 6.
- I certainly do not regard me and my husband as irresponsible parents in the choices we make for our family, rather the opposite of tending to be overprotective with its related issues.
- I would not expect members on the forum to criticise me in the manner, as you have suggested should be done, leveled at the Tapas group.
- in fact, I find your suggestion similar to an inciting incident.

thanks for confirming you stated ...in the exact circumstances....
Based on that i think its quite a valid question to pose why you received no criticism from those who criticise the mccanns.

You also say other families left children alone.....i wonder how old they were... Again on a forum where the mccanns are constantly criticised its interesting to know just how widespread the practice is
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 25, 2019, 10:51:54 AM
Just to be precise JW gave the time as between 8:45 and 9:15.

I wonder if GMc flushed the toilet before he left the apartment, with his concerns about noise?

I was going to make a similar point about KM P.74:

Our visits also gave us a convenient opportunity to pop to the loo or, in my case, to pick up an extra cardigan.

The bathroom at 5A was sandwiched between the 2 bedrooms with MM's bed against the wall bathroom side.  I don't want to get too picky here as without physically being there its difficult to know what was noisy and what wasn't and how any sounds travelled.  The wood front door may have been noisy to close and lock but then again flushing the toilet and washing hands afterwards creates noise too?!

Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 25, 2019, 10:52:25 AM
Not related to what the McCanns did in any way whatsoever then. I wonder why it was even mentioned in the first place?

If you read the post you will see that anthro originally said she left her children alone in the exact circumstances with no elaboration...on that basis I think my question was quite valid
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 25, 2019, 11:12:53 AM
Hi Davel, since you are referring to me, the following:

- although I said ‘exact circumstances’, I did not elaborate on much detail. If that was misleading, I wish to correct it by providing the following:

- the particular visit I was referring to was to a resort in Mauritius for seven nights in December 2017.
- at the time our children were 12 and 10 years old, respectively.
- they preferred to stay in the hotel room and relax, watching satellite television after a busy day filled with activities.
- many families at this particular resort had the same arrangement with their children and presumably other guests, staff etc would have noticed a pattern over the days for different families at the resort.
- the hotel room was on the first floor, not ground level.
- the front door was locked by means of a parental/security code.
- the patio doors were left open from where they could see and hear us and vice versa.
- we all were in cellphone contact, eg. our children would call or whatsapp asking us to come upstairs and bring them down for a milkshake, etc.
- they were not allowed to order room service when we were not present in the room, for the reason that the front door was out of sight and we did not feel comfortable that a stranger/s would have access to the room via that door.
- we made a request at reception that no room service be allowed to our room, unless it was me or my husband requesting it.
- as I have pointed out previously, it should be contextually viewed. Where we live, space is abundant and we are used to dining, sleeping, visiting etc in an urban home space of 3000 square metres.
- on our previous visits to Mauritius, our children accompanied us everywhere, except when they were occupied at their kids’ club. The reason being: we regarded them as too young and dependent to consider that choice. On these visits their ages were 4 and 2; and 8 and 6.
- I certainly do not regard me and my husband as irresponsible parents in the choices we make for our family, rather the opposite of tending to be overprotective with its related issues.
- I would not expect members on the forum to criticise me in the manner, as you have suggested should be done, leveled at the Tapas group.
- in fact, I find your suggestion similar to an inciting incident.

Thanks for the detailed explanation Anthro.

I think the McCann case is unique given the ages of the children, the fact they were left asleep, and more importantly they claim the patio door was unsecured which to some degree is corroborated by others eg PF, MO and JW.

KM insists throughout her PB that the self-imposed childcare arrangement was similar to that provided by MW at other locations but this is simply not the case.  The checking service operated by MW involved personnel listening at secured doors and in the event of any disturbance personnel would contact the parents.  The parents would then return, open up their respective apartments and resettle the children.   
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: G-Unit on October 25, 2019, 11:14:05 AM
If you read the post you will see that anthro originally said she left her children alone in the exact circumstances with no elaboration...on that basis I think my question was quite valid

As the circumstances were actually completely different I wondered why Anthro mentioned it in the first place.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 25, 2019, 11:16:31 AM
As the circumstances were actually completely different I wondered why Anthro mentioned it in the first place.

Abthro mentions other parents, were doing exactly the same but no mention if childrens ages
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: The General on October 25, 2019, 11:29:28 AM
Abthro mentions other parents, were doing exactly the same but no mention if childrens ages
Totally different context then, as I stated Davros. Kneel before Zod!
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 25, 2019, 11:46:01 AM
The law on leaving your children on their own:

https://www.gov.uk/law-on-leaving-your-child-home-alone

The National Society For The Prevention Of Cruelty To Children:

There might not be a specific legal age to leave children alone but it’s safe to say babies, toddlers and young children should never be left alone, even if it’s just while you pop down the road. Even if they’re sleeping peacefully when you leave they could well wake up and get very upset when you’re not there to look after them. They would not be able to protect themselves in an emergency and may even try to leave the property to find you.

https://www.nspcc.org.uk/preventing-abuse/keeping-children-safe/leaving-child-home-alone
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: pathfinder73 on October 25, 2019, 01:40:55 PM
Just to be precise JW gave the time as between 8:45 and 9:15.

I wonder if GMc flushed the toilet before he left the apartment, with his concerns about noise?

He only left the apartment at 20:35 so I don't believe he went to the toilet so no flush 8(0(*
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Erngath on October 25, 2019, 02:00:17 PM
He only left the apartment at 20:35 so I don't believe he went to the toilet so no flush 8(0(*

Just for clarity.
Are  Gerry`s bladder and bowel functions now being analysed?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Eleanor on October 25, 2019, 02:02:41 PM
Just for clarity.
Are  Gerry`s bladder and bowel functions now being analysed?

That'll make a change.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Anthro on October 25, 2019, 02:04:42 PM
Hi G-Unit, I initially mentioned it because, in my experience, it is not an unusual practice at holiday resorts where we have been. The week that you book represents a sort or micro-community where you learn people’s names, chat and the children make new friends at the kids’s club. This is how I knew that other parents also left their children in their hotel rooms, because it was mentioned amongst some guests. Or, by simply overhearing someone mentioning their kids are in the hotel room. Where the rooms were and the ages of the children, I cannot recollect that I was ever asking for such detail and/or someone offering that sort of info.

I agree with Davel re. criticism against the McCann’s.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: G-Unit on October 25, 2019, 03:14:41 PM
Hi G-Unit, I initially mentioned it because, in my experience, it is not an unusual practice at holiday resorts where we have been. The week that you book represents a sort or micro-community where you learn people’s names, chat and the children make new friends at the kids’s club. This is how I knew that other parents also left their children in their hotel rooms, because it was mentioned amongst some guests. Or, by simply overhearing someone mentioning their kids are in the hotel room. Where the rooms were and the ages of the children, I cannot recollect that I was ever asking for such detail and/or someone offering that sort of info.

I agree with Davel re. criticism against the McCann’s.

In my opinion you deliberately gave forum members the impression that you acted as the McCanns acted. You clearly didn't, and you don't know anyone else who did.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11040.msg556935#msg556935

In the UK it is part of a doctor's job to be aware of the dangers in the home, and as such they are very unlikely to make the mistake of leaving their own children home alone.
https://www.rospa.com/Home-Safety/Advice/General/Facts-and-Figures.aspx
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Anthro on October 25, 2019, 04:17:13 PM
Me: I want to share this, please. I do understand that it is a contentious issue: Our closest overseas break is Mauritius, Madagascar and Reunion. We have been to Mauritius a couple of times. The setup is the same as at the OC. Room overlooking the pool and dining area, kids going off to kids’ club during the day, kids having an early dinner at the restaurant, putting them to bed and we having our evening meal. We too went to check on them to make sure they are fine. Never, ever did it cross our minds that someone will enter our room, taking one of our children.

G-Unit: In my opinion you deliberately gave forum members the impression that you acted as the McCanns acted. You clearly didn't, and you don't know anyone else who did.

What exactly in trying to put across an analogy of a resort vacation, would make me ‘deliberately give forum members the impression ...’? Of course no single situation and context is the same, but you stating I know no one else who left their children in a hotel room while dining, is inaccurate. Fact is, I have come across resort guests in different localities over many years, doing something similar to what I and others were doing. This is exactly why I was referring to Davel’s comment because I cannot be compared to the McCann’s. Since my child did not go missing but theirs did, I should be criticized in the same way as the McCann’s, is something I regard as unjust. I also find the severe criticism against the McCann’s for their decision, unjust.

Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 25, 2019, 05:25:33 PM
Me: I want to share this, please. I do understand that it is a contentious issue: Our closest overseas break is Mauritius, Madagascar and Reunion. We have been to Mauritius a couple of times. The setup is the same as at the OC. Room overlooking the pool and dining area, kids going off to kids’ club during the day, kids having an early dinner at the restaurant, putting them to bed and we having our evening meal. We too went to check on them to make sure they are fine. Never, ever did it cross our minds that someone will enter our room, taking one of our children.

G-Unit: In my opinion you deliberately gave forum members the impression that you acted as the McCanns acted. You clearly didn't, and you don't know anyone else who did.

What exactly in trying to put across an analogy of a resort vacation, would make me ‘deliberately give forum members the impression ...’? Of course no single situation and context is the same, but you stating I know no one else who left their children in a hotel room while dining, is inaccurate. Fact is, I have come across resort guests in different localities over many years, doing something similar to what I and others were doing. This is exactly why I was referring to Davel’s comment because I cannot be compared to the McCann’s. Since my child did not go missing but theirs did, I should be criticized in the same way as the McCann’s, is something I regard as unjust.

But it is surely the unique combination of factors which make up the McCann's checking arrangement that put MM in harms way:

- Dining at a restaurant same time, same place for 5 consecutive evenings.
- Unable to observe if anyone entered and exited
- Leaving the patio doors unsecured as per McCanns and others: PF, MO and JW
- Ages of children: 2, 2 and 3.

I do not see how other similar examples which do not feature the above are comparable?

I recall listening to a sermon like presentation by CM and not a word about the unsecured patio doors.  Same goes for when the McCanns were interviewed by OW.  Now imagine if the private detective agencies were not made clear about entry/exit points and accessibility.

I see these facts  as crucial to working out what happened and not a case of bashing the McCanns with them.

Similar cases are that of Alesha MacPhail and a little girl abducted from a bath in Newcastle.  In these examples the perps were opportunists who seized on the opportunity of the moment: key in door and unlocked/open door (? unclear) in any event neither case involved forced entry. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Alesha_MacPhail

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willington_Quay_child_abduction_case

 

Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Brietta on October 25, 2019, 05:48:41 PM
Just for clarity.
Are  Gerry`s bladder and bowel functions now being analysed?

I was wondering exactly the same.  I could be wrong but I have never read the question being raised on some of the foulest cess pit fora.  Has the UK Justice forum hit yet another new low 🤔 ?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: slartibartfast on October 25, 2019, 06:50:48 PM
Given its never been tested in a court of law is it beyond the realms of possibility there was no checking.

There’s checking and there’s checking.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: The General on October 25, 2019, 07:35:40 PM
I was wondering exactly the same.  I could be wrong but I have never read the question being raised on some of the foulest cess pit fora.  Has the UK Justice forum hit yet another new low 🤔 ?
You're right, you are wrong. Let's add some context. Gerry stated that he went to the toilet. Given that we know that they were reluctant to make any noise (let's go out the patio door to make less noise), as a man, in the dark, in a relatively unfamiliar toilet, I can guarantee that there's gonna be some significant noise if he's bustin' for a wazz. There are a few techniques a dude can deploy to reduce that noise, one of which entails aim management, the other, as unhygienic as it sounds, is if it's yellow, let it mellow.
To dismiss it as 'a new low' is a new low, given the dredging that this forum has collectively undertaken since its inception - i mean there were a few members dredging BMD databases to determine whether Pamela Fenn had frilly draws or not.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: jassi on October 25, 2019, 07:41:52 PM
Being a bloke, he could have just unzipped on the patio and let fly. No flushing required.  8(0(*
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: The General on October 25, 2019, 07:45:09 PM
Being a bloke, he could have just unzipped on the patio and let fly. No flushing required.  8(0(*
I actually think that is a distinct possibility. I would have if I was trying to reduce noise. Yes, I'm that guy, what of it?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: G-Unit on October 25, 2019, 08:34:43 PM
You're right, you are wrong. Let's add some context. Gerry stated that he went to the toilet. Given that we know that they were reluctant to make any noise (let's go out the patio door to make less noise), as a man, in the dark, in a relatively unfamiliar toilet, I can guarantee that there's gonna be some significant noise if he's bustin' for a wazz. There are a few techniques a dude can deploy to reduce that noise, one of which entails aim management, the other, as unhygienic as it sounds, is if it's yellow, let it mellow.
To dismiss it as 'a new low' is a new low, given the dredging that this forum has collectively undertaken since its inception - i mean there were a few members dredging BMD databases to determine whether Pamela Fenn had frilly draws or not.

The information was indeed volunteered by the man himself. The question arising is why he thought it was necessary to share that irrelevant information.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Anthro on October 25, 2019, 09:11:35 PM
But it is surely the unique combination of factors which make up the McCann's checking arrangement that put MM in harms way:

- Dining at a restaurant same time, same place for 5 consecutive evenings.
- Unable to observe if anyone entered and exited
- Leaving the patio doors unsecured as per McCanns and others: PF, MO and JW
- Ages of children: 2, 2 and 3.

I do not see how other similar examples which do not feature the above are comparable?

Hi Holly, I agree. All I wanted to contribute was my experience/s of a similar environment and context. As per G-Unit’s post, it was never my intention to deliberately mislead. Perhaps G-Unit can tell us of the experience s/he had at such a resort and offer some insight as to what the situation was while s/he was a guest/participant-observer?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: G-Unit on October 25, 2019, 09:58:28 PM
But it is surely the unique combination of factors which make up the McCann's checking arrangement that put MM in harms way:

- Dining at a restaurant same time, same place for 5 consecutive evenings.
- Unable to observe if anyone entered and exited
- Leaving the patio doors unsecured as per McCanns and others: PF, MO and JW
- Ages of children: 2, 2 and 3.

I do not see how other similar examples which do not feature the above are comparable?

Hi Holly, I agree. All I wanted to contribute was my experience/s of a similar environment and context. As per G-Unit’s post, it was never my intention to deliberately mislead. Perhaps G-Unit can tell us of the experience s/he had at such a resort and offer some insight as to what the situation was while s/he was as a guest/participant-observer?

I'm not the type of person who would be attracted to such resorts. Madeleine was excited about her holiday to Portugal, but didn't seem to have experienced anything Portuguese. All she did was spend her days in a very similar environment to the one she experienced at home. In fact she spent more days with the MW nursery staff than she did with the nursery staff at home, doing very similar activities. No rooting about in rock pools with her Dad, no boat trips to see the dolphins, no building sand castles with her family.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: The General on October 25, 2019, 10:02:32 PM
I'm not the type of person who would be attracted to such resorts. Madeleine was excited about her holiday to Portugal, but didn't seem to have experienced anything Portuguese. All she did was spend her days in a very similar environment to the one she experienced at home. In fact she spent more days with the MW nursery staff than she did with the nursery staff at home, doing very similar activities. No rooting about in rock pools with her Dad, no boat trips to see the dolphins, no building sand castles with her family.
She might have had some fun during the days in the kids clubs, I suppose, but the nights would have been pretty bleak.
is this on topic?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Brietta on October 25, 2019, 10:24:37 PM
I'm not the type of person who would be attracted to such resorts. Madeleine was excited about her holiday to Portugal, but didn't seem to have experienced anything Portuguese. All she did was spend her days in a very similar environment to the one she experienced at home. In fact she spent more days with the MW nursery staff than she did with the nursery staff at home, doing very similar activities. No rooting about in rock pools with her Dad, no boat trips to see the dolphins, no building sand castles with her family.

Oh the cruelty of it all !!!! 
The lengths some parents will go to ensure their children have as horrid a time as possible on holiday, really all just a matter of opinion though and I think this mob look as if they are having a great time.
(http://www.firstclasskids.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/messy-play.png)
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: G-Unit on October 25, 2019, 10:27:56 PM
She might have had some fun during the days in the kids clubs, I suppose, but the nights would have been pretty bleak.
is this on topic?

It probably isn't on topic, I just find the busman's holiday aspect quite sad, that's all.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: The General on October 25, 2019, 10:36:35 PM
Oh the cruelty of it all !!!! 
The lengths some parents will go to ensure their children have as horrid a time as possible on holiday, really all just a matter of opinion though and I think this mob look as if they are having a great time.
(http://www.firstclasskids.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/messy-play.png)
Come on, keep it on topic. Now that we're self-moderating.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Eleanor on October 25, 2019, 10:38:58 PM
Come on, keep it on topic. Now that we're self-moderating.

If only, if only.  What a glory it would be.  But please do surprise me.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: The General on October 25, 2019, 10:44:19 PM
If only, if only.  What a glory it would be.  But please do surprise me.
That means you too. Come on, at least enter in to the spirit of self-moderation.

Having said that, I'd best heed the warnings, as I've never read Kate's book, so resorting to posting smart arsed comments is all I've got  - O.....M....G.....I'm self-moderating.......I'm self-aware. I'm woke! Finally!
It took the liberation from moderation for me to reflect on my shortcomings.
Yo Davros.....WE DID IT!
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: puglove on October 26, 2019, 12:42:17 AM
That means you too. Come on, at least enter in to the spirit of self-moderation.

Having said that, I'd best heed the warnings, as I've never read Kate's book, so resorting to posting smart arsed comments is all I've got  - O.....M....G.....I'm self-moderating.......I'm self-aware. I'm woke! Finally!
It took the liberation from moderation for me to reflect on my shortcomings.
Yo Davros.....WE DID IT!

What a delicious risotto. I felt so comfortable with this man, like when your homework is hard. He fed me brandy.

And all the time your small child is probably being violated.

Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: sadie on October 26, 2019, 12:53:44 AM
I was going to make a similar point about KM P.74:

Our visits also gave us a convenient opportunity to pop to the loo or, in my case, to pick up an extra cardigan.

The bathroom at 5A was sandwiched between the 2 bedrooms with MM's bed against the wall bathroom side.  I don't want to get too picky here as without physically being there its difficult to know what was noisy and what wasn't and how any sounds travelled.  The wood front door may have been noisy to close and lock but then again flushing the toilet and washing hands afterwards creates noise too?!

But did Gerry flush the loo?

Our little boy was a terrible sleeper and we wouild creep upstairs, do the necessary and not bother with flushing.  He still woke up !  Little monkey waited a few minutes before crying out ... immediately after we had droppod to sleep ... every night, without fail.

We never flushed and maybe Gerry didn't either?  We just don't know, do we ?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: sadie on October 26, 2019, 01:16:50 AM
In my opinion you deliberately gave forum members the impression that you acted as the McCanns acted. You clearly didn't, and you don't know anyone else who did.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11040.msg556935#msg556935

In the UK it is part of a doctor's job to be aware of the dangers in the home, and as such they are very unlikely to make the mistake of leaving their own children home alone.
https://www.rospa.com/Home-Safety/Advice/General/Facts-and-Figures.aspx

They were staying at an aparthotel ... and their flat for the holiday period was their home.

Kate and Gerry were eating in the gardens to that aparthotel, sitting in the Tapas Restaurant, and were only about 50 metres away from their holiday home.  Suggest you measure that distance out and see just how close they were to the children.   

The group could see the rear of the apartment and the patio doors there were illuminated by the street lamp opposite.   They were on the land/ garden thta their holiday home was on ... and only 50 metres away; patio doors visible and within earshot.  They had not contravened any Law that I know of.  Do you ?


From the photo the Mccann set up was rather like Anthos holiday set up.  She gave a very clear description and there was nothing misleading there.  Nothing at all was deliberately misleading as you accuse her of



Why are you picking on her?

Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: sadie on October 26, 2019, 01:34:22 AM
I'm not the type of person who would be attracted to such resorts. Madeleine was excited about her holiday to Portugal, but didn't seem to have experienced anything Portuguese. All she did was spend her days in a very similar environment to the one she experienced at home. In fact she spent more days with the MW nursery staff than she did with the nursery staff at home, doing very similar activities. No rooting about in rock pools with her Dad, no boat trips to see the dolphins, no building sand castles with her family.

How do you know?   You don't do you?

Plenty of oportunities, between kids club to do all that ... and what about on the day that they went west, was it to Sagres?  What did they do on the beach there ?


TBQH the whole post seems off the mark to me.   You are in the land of fallacy, imo
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 26, 2019, 02:04:13 AM
That means you too. Come on, at least enter in to the spirit of self-moderation.

Having said that, I'd best heed the warnings, as I've never read Kate's book, so resorting to posting smart arsed comments is all I've got  - O.....M....G.....I'm self-moderating.......I'm self-aware. I'm woke! Finally!
It took the liberation from moderation for me to reflect on my shortcomings.
Yo Davros.....WE DID IT!
You might have succeeded but has Davros?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: G-Unit on October 26, 2019, 06:17:47 AM
How do you know?   You don't do you?

Plenty of oportunities, between kids club to do all that ... and what about on the day that they went west, was it to Sagres?  What did they do on the beach there ?


TBQH the whole post seems off the mark to me.   You are in the land of fallacy, imo

If anyone's in fantasy land it's you, I'm afraid. I'm absolutely sure that Madeleine spent every day in the Mini Club and her parents took her nowhere except to the beach on Tuesday (or, according to the creche attendance sheets, Monday). She certainly didn't go to Sagres. I'm sure if the McCanns did things with their children during that holiday we would have heard all about it in Kate's book.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: barrier on October 26, 2019, 06:24:00 AM
If anyone's in fantasy land it's you, I'm afraid. I'm absolutely sure that Madeleine spent every day in the Mini Club and her parents took her nowhere except to the beach on Tuesday (or, according to the creche attendance sheets, Monday). She certainly didn't go to Sagres. I'm sure if the McCanns did things with their children during that holiday we would have heard all about it in Kate's book.

Non existent sex life was worth a mention though.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 26, 2019, 07:19:45 AM
Non existent sex life was worth a mention though.
What a cheap shot, typical sceptic shite though so to be expected.  Keep up the good work!
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: G-Unit on October 26, 2019, 07:57:39 AM
Non existent sex life was worth a mention though.

Morning, fellow early riser!

It seems only Kate was affected by this aversion to sex;

Gerry was incredibly understanding and supportive. He never made me feel guilty, he never pushed me and he never got sulky [madeleine]

Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 26, 2019, 08:23:54 AM
Morning, fellow early riser!

It seems only Kate was affected by this aversion to sex;

Gerry was incredibly understanding and supportive. He never made me feel guilty, he never pushed me and he never got sulky [madeleine]
That’s men for you, always up for it, no matter what.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Erngath on October 26, 2019, 09:02:23 AM
That’s men for you, always up for it, no matter what.


 @)(++(*
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Erngath on October 26, 2019, 09:02:44 AM
What a cheap shot, typical sceptic shite though so to be expected.  Keep up the good work!

Indeed!
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Brietta on October 26, 2019, 09:29:37 AM
Morning, fellow early riser!

It seems only Kate was affected by this aversion to sex;

Gerry was incredibly understanding and supportive. He never made me feel guilty, he never pushed me and he never got sulky [madeleine]

It is a very 'cheap shot' indeed from psyche's which mean nothing but ill.  I am mindful of the sceptic eagerness for the failure of the marriage altogether despite their favour given to a serial divorcee.

Even the strongest of marriages suffer terribly if they survive at all after the loss of a child.  Kate's writing was cathartic for her ... it was also a true account which sadly may inform and help future parents who find themselves in similar circumstances.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: G-Unit on October 26, 2019, 10:29:27 AM
It is a very 'cheap shot' indeed from psyche's which mean nothing but ill.  I am mindful of the sceptic eagerness for the failure of the marriage altogether despite their favour given to a serial divorcee.

Even the strongest of marriages suffer terribly if they survive at all after the loss of a child.  Kate's writing was cathartic for her ... it was also a true account which sadly may inform and help future parents who find themselves in similar circumstances.

If a person chooses to share details of their private lives then they have to be prepared to face the fact that not everyone will be sympathetic. I'm reminded of some people's attitude towards Sofia Leal who received little sympathy or understanding for the situation she found herself in due to this case.

According to Kate McCann any woman facing a similar problem will just have to bite the bullet and get over it;

Deep down, though, I knew there were only two solutions: bringing Madeleine back or conquering my mental block. Since the first was not within my control, it was up to me to try to train my mind and my thought processes. So that is what I applied myself to doing. [madeleine]

Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 26, 2019, 10:34:00 AM
If a person chooses to share details of their private lives then they have to be prepared to face the fact that not everyone will be sympathetic. I'm reminded of some people's attitude towards Sofia Leal who received little sympathy or understanding for the situation she found herself in due to this case.

According to Kate McCann any woman facing a similar problem will just have to bite the bullet and get over it;

Deep down, though, I knew there were only two solutions: bringing Madeleine back or conquering my mental block. Since the first was not within my control, it was up to me to try to train my mind and my thought processes. So that is what I applied myself to doing. [madeleine]

I agree not everyone will be sympathetic... Some will be downright nasty
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: G-Unit on October 26, 2019, 11:18:26 AM
I agree not everyone will be sympathetic... Some will be downright nasty

What is or is not nastiness is a subjective opinion, not a fact.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 26, 2019, 11:20:30 AM
What is or is not nastiness is a subjective opinion, not a fact.

Yes,.   For some people cutting off someone's head is perfectly acceptable ...fact
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: jassi on October 26, 2019, 11:24:59 AM
What is or is not nastiness is a subjective opinion, not a fact.

Of no consequence anyway, other to those who choose to be offended on behalf of people they don't know.

Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Eleanor on October 26, 2019, 11:26:40 AM
Of no consequence anyway, other to those who choose to be offended on behalf of people they don't know.

It didn't half cause a kerfuffle at the time.  A lot of people bought the book simply for that.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: jassi on October 26, 2019, 11:30:39 AM
It didn't half cause a kerfuffle at the time.  A lot of people bought the book simply for that.


Then more fool them is what I say.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: G-Unit on October 26, 2019, 11:34:12 AM
It didn't half cause a kerfuffle at the time.  A lot of people bought the book simply for that.

Really? There's nowt as queer as folk is there.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 26, 2019, 11:37:46 AM
Of no consequence anyway, other to those who choose to be offended on behalf of people they don't know.

It's more sympathy than offence... I have sympathy for the illegals who died in the lorry this week... I have sympathy for their families.  ..but I don't know either
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Brietta on October 26, 2019, 01:44:11 PM
If a person chooses to share details of their private lives then they have to be prepared to face the fact that not everyone will be sympathetic. I'm reminded of some people's attitude towards Sofia Leal who received little sympathy or understanding for the situation she found herself in due to this case.

According to Kate McCann any woman facing a similar problem will just have to bite the bullet and get over it;

Deep down, though, I knew there were only two solutions: bringing Madeleine back or conquering my mental block. Since the first was not within my control, it was up to me to try to train my mind and my thought processes. So that is what I applied myself to doing. [madeleine]

Ms Leal was of the opinion that the Policia Judiciaria failed her husband and it seems her beef was very much with them as affirmed in the very unkind open letter she penned to the mother of a missing child.

Snip
 It was with astonishment that he learned that he had been passed over by other colleagues (coordinators as it happens, to tell the truth), because he had not managed to get himself into "professional training" settings. And yes, Madam Kate, my husband spent his life working, in the midst of complex investigations. He was the man in Portugal who seized most drugs, but as he didn't have the time to parade himself in the corridors of the PJ's institution, he was not promoted. A disgrace, madam, a disgrace!
________________________________________
I once suggested to him the creation of a fund, or something else for dealing with these extraordinary (work related ???) expenses, but he never listened to me. While we too had our mortgage to pay...A disgrace, Madam Kate, a disgrace!
________________________________________
This year, in May, we started the process of moving our family to Portimao. My husband's holiday was supposed to start the day after your daughter disappeared. "For obvious reasons," that didn't happen. I started a new job, I looked at houses, I made the move and I tried to settle our daughters into new schools with new routines.

All that alone, without any support from my husband, who, for obvious reasons, was looking for your daughter, Madam Kate. In October, on the day of his birthday, a week after our daughters had started the new school year, Gonçalo Amaral was dismissed and returned to Faro. It was supposed to be a time of the family getting together, but in fact it was even more of a separation. Isn't that a disgrace?
https://mmknowthetruth.blogspot.com/2016/12/sofia-leals-open-letter-to-kate-mccann.html


Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Wonderfulspam on October 26, 2019, 02:35:30 PM
It is a very 'cheap shot' indeed from psyche's which mean nothing but ill.  I am mindful of the sceptic eagerness for the failure of the marriage altogether despite their favour given to a serial divorcee.

Even the strongest of marriages suffer terribly if they survive at all after the loss of a child.  Kate's writing was cathartic for her ... it was also a true account which sadly may inform and help future parents who find themselves in similar circumstances.

You forgot to add IMO there.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Wonderfulspam on October 26, 2019, 02:38:23 PM
It's more sympathy than offence... I have sympathy for the illegals who died in the lorry this week... I have sympathy for their families.  ..but I don't know either

I don't.

They chose to leave a perfectly safe country & stow away in the back of freezer lorry.

I think they were a bunch of idiots.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 26, 2019, 05:22:36 PM
I don't.

They chose to leave a perfectly safe country & stow away in the back of freezer lorry.

I think they were a bunch of idiots.
Did they deserve to die? 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Wonderfulspam on October 26, 2019, 05:41:47 PM
Did they deserve to die?

I think anyone who's stupid enough to climb inside an air tight container is asking for it.

Oh well. No great loss to the gene pool.

Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Anthro on October 26, 2019, 05:59:16 PM
‘I think anyone who's stupid enough to climb inside an air tight container is asking for it.

Oh well. No great loss to the gene pool’.

In my country, uttering these words will send you straight to jail.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Wonderfulspam on October 26, 2019, 06:05:08 PM
‘I think anyone who's stupid enough to climb inside an air tight container is asking for it.

Oh well. No great loss to the gene pool’.

In my country, uttering these words will send you straight to jail.

Without trial?

Jesus!

Good job I live in Internet Land.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 26, 2019, 06:07:50 PM
I think anyone who's stupid enough to climb inside an air tight container is asking for it.

Oh well. No great loss to the gene pool.

An aeroplane is an airtight container... Have you ever been in one... Probably not.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 26, 2019, 06:12:29 PM
Without trial?

Jesus!

Good job I live in Internet Land.

People get sent to jail without trial all over the world... Including Portugal... Being held on remand for 12 months is not uncommon it seems
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on October 26, 2019, 06:18:56 PM
Non existent sex life was worth a mention though.

As was her daughters genetalia- for those who would be interested in such a thing- Ew.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on October 26, 2019, 06:24:49 PM
"Even the strongest of marriages suffer terribly if they survive at all after the loss of a child.  Kate's writing was cathartic for her ... it was also a true account which sadly may inform and help future parents who find themselves in similar circumstances.
"

What circumstanhces would they be?  how many parents who believe their daughter was abducted by paedophiles would want to talk publicly about their bloody sex lives? I mean this is supposed to be about their daughter.

The very thought that anyone would ask Kate for advice is laughable!

"In my country, uttering these words will send you straight to jail."

Which country would that be Anthro?  do you not get sent to jail for leaving your children alone to be kidnapperd? Just asking..
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: ShiningInLuz on October 26, 2019, 06:30:28 PM
An aeroplane is an airtight container... Have you ever been in one... Probably not.

No it's not.

Have you ever been in an airtight aeroplane?  Definitely not.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Wonderfulspam on October 26, 2019, 06:47:06 PM
People get sent to jail without trial all over the world... Including Portugal... Being held on remand for 12 months is not uncommon it seems

I'd like to know what I could be charged with.

Insensitivity?

Can't see me getting remanded for that somehow.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 26, 2019, 06:48:30 PM
No it's not.

Have you ever been in an airtight aeroplane?  Definitely not.

Could you explain why you criticise my post and not spams..
.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 26, 2019, 06:49:17 PM
I'd like to know what I could be charged with.

Insensitivity?

Can't see me getting remanded for that somehow.

You need to ask anthro
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: jassi on October 26, 2019, 06:52:43 PM
I'd like to know what I could be charged with.

Insensitivity?

Can't see me getting remanded for that somehow.

Ah, but when the other 3000 + offences are taken into account, you'll be lucky to see the light of day before 2030  @)(++(*
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on October 26, 2019, 06:55:17 PM
I just thought it strange... Or impossible... That someone who claims to have two BSc degrees and a Phd can't spell genitalia

Davel It is not strange at all. it could be called a typo- but it isn't.  a while back you and others picked up and ran with the correcting my husbands spelling/typing. for fun of it for one upmanship-The irony is  this is your first language and yet your spelling and typing leave a lot to be desired.  For my own bit of fun, I now add some errors just so you and your fellow supporters can have something to post.

Have a good evening. try not to get too many worms words banned or else we won't have much to slag off will we?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 26, 2019, 06:56:23 PM
As was her daughters genetalia- for those who would be interested in such a thing- Ew.
I wondered how long it would be before that got brought up again #scepticsfavouritetropes
Seriously the ONLY people who seem interested in the words genitals or genitalia on forums discussing the case are McCann bashers.  Very peculiar!
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on October 26, 2019, 07:00:38 PM
Could you explain why you criticise my post and not spams..
.

Oh. you have issues I thought you didn't care what people say on here?  anyway back to airtight planes... too funny!!!!!! 

mind you it is easy to confuse airtight with cabin pressure... (&^&
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 26, 2019, 07:05:11 PM
I think anyone who's stupid enough to climb inside an air tight container is asking for it.

Oh well. No great loss to the gene pool.
So in your opinion those people in that lorry deserved to suffocate or freeze to death.  I guess this is a fairly typical view of your average British Brexit voting moron, thanks for sharing.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Wonderfulspam on October 26, 2019, 07:08:56 PM
So in your opinion those people in that lorry deserved to suffocate or freeze to death.  I guess this is a fairly typical view of your average British Brexit voting moron, thanks for sharing.

No not really.

They deserved British citizenship, council houses & child benefits. There's plenty to go around.

F*ck it, why not let's invite the entire earths population to live on this tiny island & bleed it dry.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 26, 2019, 07:27:48 PM
No not really.

They deserved British citizenship, council houses & child benefits. There's plenty to go around.

F*ck it, why not let's invite the entire earths population to live on this tiny island & bleed it dry.
LOL, you sound just like a Daily Wail reader. 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 26, 2019, 07:36:33 PM
No not really.

They deserved British citizenship, council houses & child benefits. There's plenty to go around.

F*ck it, why not let's invite the entire earths population to live on this tiny island & bleed it dry.

they dont deserve any of those things bu tI dont think any decent person would say they deserve death.

We need to be much more proactive in returning illegal immigrants...by not doing so we encourage more to come...Corbyns lot seems to want to welcome everyone...no doubt you vote for him
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 26, 2019, 07:47:17 PM
they dont deserve any of those things bu tI dont think any decent person would say they deserve death.

We need to be much more proactive in returning illegal immigrants...by not doing so we encourage more to come...Corbyns lot seems to want to welcome everyone...no doubt you vote for him
I think Spam’s more of a BNPer.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Wonderfulspam on October 26, 2019, 07:48:30 PM
they dont deserve any of those things bu tI dont think any decent person would say they deserve death.

We need to be much more proactive in returning illegal immigrants...by not doing so we encourage more to come...Corbyns lot seems to want to welcome everyone...no doubt you vote for him

I disagree.

If I chose to sit inside an airtight freezer then I believe I'd deserve to freeze.

Still, I've put on a bit of weight lately so I could be made into some tasty spam chops. Yum Yum.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 26, 2019, 07:52:50 PM
I disagree.

If I chose to sit inside an airtight freezer then I believe I'd deserve to freeze.

Still, I've put on a bit of weight lately so I could be made into some tasty spam chops. Yum Yum.

or put another way...If a parent leaves a child in an unlocked apt...then the child deserves to be abducted
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 26, 2019, 08:13:47 PM
Get back on topic.  Discussion above ought to be on Off Topic thread.  Deletions coming up.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Anthro on October 26, 2019, 08:14:13 PM
‘Good job I live in Internet Land.

I'd like to know what I could be charged with.

Insensitivity?

Can't see me getting remanded for that somehow.

F*ck it, why not let's invite the entire earths population to live on this tiny island & bleed it dry’.

‘Internet Land’ nowadays may become your nemesis. You come across as xenophobic and your words on an open/public platform and forum might be used against you.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Anthro on October 26, 2019, 08:23:49 PM
I live in a hugely divided country. ‘Ubuntu’ is a principle that most of us try to adhere to. It means "humanity." It is often translated as "I am because we are," or "humanity towards others," but is often used in a more philosophical sense to mean "the belief in a universal bond of sharing that connects all humanity."

I apologise for this off-topic comment.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Eleanor on October 26, 2019, 09:07:38 PM

I can't be bothered to delete these horrible comments..  Such really nasty people are a bit beyond me.  Sadly there are a bit too many of them.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Eleanor on October 26, 2019, 09:22:38 PM
I live in a hugely divided country. ‘Ubuntu’ is a principle that most of us try to adhere to. It means "humanity." It is often translated as "I am because we are," or "humanity towards others," but is often used in a more philosophical sense to mean "the belief in a universal bond of sharing that connects all humanity."

I apologise for this off-topic comment.

I actually worry for you personally, but there is nothing that I can do.  Or should actually want to.  None of this means anything to me.  But no one wants to talk about how dreadful it is aomeimes.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Anthro on October 26, 2019, 09:24:37 PM
Pham Thi Tra My (26), is one of the deceased. She left Vietnam on 3 October travelling via China and France. She sent a text message to her Mom and Dad, telling them that she is sorry but her journey was unsuccessful. She said, Mom I love you and Dad very much. She told them she is busy dying because she can’t breath.

None of us can comprehend what the context of this tragedy is. Every life matters. In my opinion.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 26, 2019, 09:34:16 PM
Pham Thi Tra My (26), is one of the deceased. She left Vietnam on 3 October travelling via China and France. She sent a text message to her Mom and Dad, telling them that she is sorry but her journey was unsuccessful. She said, Mom I love you and Dad very much. She told them she is busy dying because she can’t breath.

None of us can comprehend what the context of this tragedy is. Every life matters. In my opinion.

Absolutely
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Erngath on October 26, 2019, 09:36:17 PM
Pham Thi Tra My (26), is one of the deceased. She left Vietnam on 3 October travelling via China and France. She sent a text message to her Mom and Dad, telling them that she is sorry but her journey was unsuccessful. She said, Mom I love you and Dad very much. She told them she is busy dying because she can’t breath.

None of us can comprehend what the context of this tragedy is. Every life matters. In my opinion.

Indeed.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: jassi on October 26, 2019, 09:41:12 PM
Would it have been deemed better if this trailer had got in undetected, like 2 previous ones apparently did ?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Eleanor on October 26, 2019, 09:41:54 PM
Pham Thi Tra My (26), is one of the deceased. She left Vietnam on 3 October travelling via China and France. She sent a text message to her Mom and Dad, telling them that she is sorry but her journey was unsuccessful. She said, Mom I love you and Dad very much. She told them she is busy dying because she can’t breath.

None of us can comprehend what the context of this tragedy is. Every life matters. In my opinion.

There is nothing to be done.  It is all far too late.  They are dead.

Seriously, what do you want me to do about this?  Do you think that you can?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 26, 2019, 09:46:08 PM
Would it have been deemed better if this trailer had got in undetected, like 2 previous ones apparently did ?
Absolutely... As Ive said... We should be far more rigouress with our systems to deter such actions.. But at present we are almost encouraging people to risk their lives..

Do you think their deaths are, a better option.. That's quite cruel.. Imo
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Wonderfulspam on October 26, 2019, 09:57:23 PM
‘Good job I live in Internet Land.

I'd like to know what I could be charged with.

Insensitivity?

Can't see me getting remanded for that somehow.

F*ck it, why not let's invite the entire earths population to live on this tiny island & bleed it dry’.

‘Internet Land’ nowadays may become your nemesis. You come across as xenophobic and your words on an open/public platform and forum might be used against you.

I'm not just xenophobic.
I'm also a bit racist, sexist, homophobic, transphobic, Islamaphobic & generally misanthropic.
But I'm kind to animals & I love cats so I think that about evens things out.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Eleanor on October 26, 2019, 09:58:21 PM
Would it have been deemed better if this trailer had got in undetected, like 2 previous ones apparently did ?

No one wants to talk about that.  That is something else.  No one died..

I have no idea if anyone will be brought to book, but I very much doubt it.

If I were to allow myself to consider my own personal responsibilities then I might just as well give up.  I cannot take on the ills of the world.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 26, 2019, 09:58:42 PM
I'm not just xenophobic.
I'm also a bit racist, sexist, homophobic, transphobic, Islamaphobic & generally misanthropic.
But I'm kind to animals & I love cats so I think that about evens things out.

At least you recognise all your faults
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Wonderfulspam on October 26, 2019, 10:05:19 PM

Rather than deleting all these comments, why not split the thread into the off topic section where we can continue to discuss the pros and cons of illegal immigration & why so many illegals choose to head for the UK instead of settling in the first safe country.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Eleanor on October 26, 2019, 10:06:12 PM
At least you recognise all your faults

Your reply isn't even sensible.  So why do that?  You only demean yourself,
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 26, 2019, 10:08:03 PM
Your reply isn't even sensible.  So why do that?  You only demean yourself,
My reply is more than sensible.. It's quite, witty.. Perhaps you just can't see it.  I certainly  don't demean myself
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Eleanor on October 26, 2019, 10:08:26 PM
Rather than deleting all these comments, why not split the thread into the off topic section where we can continue to discuss the [ censored word ] and cons of illegal immigration & why so many illegals choose to head for the UK instead of settling in the first safe country.

Why not b*gger off.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 26, 2019, 10:09:40 PM
Rather than deleting all these comments, why not split the thread into the off topic section where we can continue to discuss the [ censored word ] and cons of illegal immigration & why so many illegals choose to head for the UK instead of settling in the first safe country.

I absolutely agree with everything you say in this post
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Erngath on October 26, 2019, 10:10:30 PM
Would it have been deemed better if this trailer had got in undetected, like 2 previous ones apparently did ?


It was only detected because the driver opened the doors to let the illegal immigrants out of the lorry and discovered the horror.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: G-Unit on October 26, 2019, 10:11:19 PM
Absolutely... As Ive said... We should be far more rigouress with our systems to deter such actions.. But at present we are almost encouraging people to risk their lives..

Do you think their deaths are, a better option.. That's quite cruel.. Imo

This is a very complicated subject. The lucky ones imo are the ones who are caught and dealt with by the law. The unlucky ones are those who end up trapped and enslaved by the traffickers. I doubt there are many happy endings.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 26, 2019, 10:12:19 PM
Why not b*gger off.

I think that post demeans yourself.. No wonder posters, are critical of moderation... And rightly so... No doubt your reply to me will be... Why don't you b....r off
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 26, 2019, 10:14:24 PM
This is a very complicated subject. The lucky ones imo are the ones who are caught and dealt with by the law. The unlucky ones are those who end up trapped and enslaved by the traffickers. I doubt there are many happy endings.

The law, doesn't deal with them... That's, why more, will attempt to come... More will die...  And the traffickers get richer
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Eleanor on October 26, 2019, 10:21:19 PM
My reply is more than sensible.. It's quite, witty.. Perhaps you just can't see it.  I certainly  don't demean myself

The really funny thing is that I didn't actually realise to whom I was replying.  I often don't.  How unbiased is that?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 26, 2019, 10:22:22 PM
The really funny thing is that I didn't actually realise to whom I was replying.  I often don't.  How unbiased is that?
Then my post was out of place... Apologies
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Eleanor on October 26, 2019, 10:24:27 PM
I think that post demeans yourself.. No wonder posters, are critical of moderation... And rightly so... No doubt your reply to me will be... Why don't you b....r off

Oh Dear.  You never did understand me.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 26, 2019, 10:29:06 PM
Would it have been deemed better if this trailer had got in undetected, like 2 previous ones apparently did ?
Are you seriously asking if it would have been better if these people had survived and got into the country undetected? 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 26, 2019, 10:29:51 PM
I'm not just xenophobic.
I'm also a bit racist, sexist, homophobic, transphobic, Islamaphobic & generally misanthropic.
But I'm kind to animals & I love cats so I think that about evens things out.
Hitler didn’t die in the bunker after all!
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Eleanor on October 26, 2019, 10:30:37 PM
Then my post was out of place... Apologies

Thank you.  That's okay.  You think I don't know how easy it is to misunderstand.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Myster on October 27, 2019, 06:20:25 AM
No one wants to talk about that.  That is something else.  No one died..

I have no idea if anyone will be brought to book, but I very much doubt it.

If I were to allow myself to consider my own personal responsibilities then I might just as well give up.  I cannot take on the ills of the world.
Not much chance of cutting the Oriental snakeheads off at source, but the wriggling tails here are being dealt with...

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7616919/Death-crash-trucker-charged-39-COUNTS-manslaughter.html (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7616919/Death-crash-trucker-charged-39-COUNTS-manslaughter.html)

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7617881/Essex-migrants-death-suspects-vehicles-seized.html (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7617881/Essex-migrants-death-suspects-vehicles-seized.html)

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/chinese-snakehead-gang-hunted-over-20719114 (https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/chinese-snakehead-gang-hunted-over-20719114)
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: barrier on October 27, 2019, 08:06:31 AM
What a cheap shot, typical sceptic shite though so to be expected.  Keep up the good work!

I didn't write the book,and if it was published why isn't criticism expected.
After all publicised means to be open to public scrutiny does it not.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: barrier on October 27, 2019, 08:10:19 AM
It is a very 'cheap shot' indeed from psyche's which mean nothing but ill. I am mindful of the sceptic eagerness for the failure of the marriage altogether despite their favour given to a serial divorcee.

Even the strongest of marriages suffer terribly if they survive at all after the loss of a child.  Kate's writing was cathartic for her ... it was also a true account which sadly may inform and help future parents who find themselves in similar circumstances.

Post not the poster you being mod an all like.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 27, 2019, 08:14:52 AM
I didn't write the book,and if it was published why isn't criticism expected.
After all publicised means to be open to public scrutiny does it not.
I agree that criticism is expected... But criticism of the criticism is totally valid
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: barrier on October 27, 2019, 08:16:16 AM
I agree that criticism is expected... But criticism of the criticism is totally valid

That depends if its the poster or post under criticism.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: barrier on October 27, 2019, 08:17:43 AM
Morning, fellow early riser!




Age and health and all that jazz.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 27, 2019, 08:21:58 AM
That depends if its the poster or post under criticism.

Calling it s cheap shot is criticising the post
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 27, 2019, 08:25:31 AM
I didn't write the book,and if it was published why isn't criticism expected.
After all publicised means to be open to public scrutiny does it not.
I read a fair few reviews of Kate’s book by professional reviewers in papers and magazines.  They were all mostly favourable and not one expressed faux outrage over sceptics’ favourite tropes such as “torn genitals” or the sexual problems.   What McCann sceptics have done is focus on any part of the book they can that they think, taken out of context, will whip up anger, disgust and hatred which is why these tropes are so enduring and get trotted out with yawnsome regularity.  It is tiresome and incredibly childish to do so, IMO.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: barrier on October 27, 2019, 08:51:06 AM
Better things to do,like watch the SA smash the Welsh.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Brietta on October 27, 2019, 09:07:23 AM
Post not the poster you being mod an all like.
I think the opprobrium directed not really at the book but more at Kate herself comes from the same stable which produced unnamed waiters, anonymous passing lawyers and imagined teenagers sneaking a fly puff.
Very much a case of criticism for the sake of it ... and all in my opinion patently false.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 27, 2019, 09:20:33 AM
Better things to do,like watch the SA smash the Welsh.
Of course, how grown up of you.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: G-Unit on October 27, 2019, 09:28:48 AM
I read a fair few reviews of Kate’s book by professional reviewers in papers and magazines.  They were all mostly favourable and not one expressed faux outrage over sceptics’ favourite tropes such as “torn genitals” or the sexual problems.   What McCann sceptics have done is focus on any part of the book they can that they think, taken out of context, will whip up anger, disgust and hatred which is why these tropes are so enduring and get trotted out with yawnsome regularity.  It is tiresome and incredibly childish to do so, IMO.

Are reviewers always right then?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 27, 2019, 09:51:11 AM
Are reviewers always right then?
The fact that not one of them raised objections to the use of the phrase “torn genitals” or lamented the inclusion of a short paragraph on Kate’s sexual problems after Madeleine’s disappearance certainly does help to put things into perspective IMO.  After all, no one is more vicious about people in the news than the world’s media, especially the tabs, and the fact that not one of them world wide made a big deal about it (apart from the Sun which merely used a salacious headline to sell papers, not to criticise) speaks volumes IMO.

ETA: are nasty, childish anonymous commentators online always right?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: G-Unit on October 27, 2019, 11:10:01 AM
The fact that not one of them raised objections to the use of the phrase “torn genitals” or lamented the inclusion of a short paragraph on Kate’s sexual problems after Madeleine’s disappearance certainly does help to put things into perspective IMO.  After all, no one is more vicious about people in the news than the world’s media, especially the tabs, and the fact that not one of them world wide made a big deal about it (apart from the Sun which merely used a salacious headline to sell papers, not to criticise) speaks volumes IMO.

ETA: are nasty, childish anonymous commentators online always right?

Whether or not a book is good is a matter of opinion, whether it's the opinion of someone being paid for their opinion or not. Kate McCann's book didn't move me at all, and it was nothing to do with me being nasty, childish or anonymous.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 27, 2019, 11:27:49 AM
Whether or not a book is good is a matter of opinion, whether it's the opinion of someone being paid for their opinion or not. Kate McCann's book didn't move me at all, and it was nothing to do with me being nasty, childish or anonymous.
It moved lots of people as the majority of reviews on Amazon bear testimony to, probably those who didn't come to the book with their minds already made up that Kate and Gerry were rather unpleasant individuals who deserved everything coming to them.  IMO.  The fact that you could read the book and not feel anything for Kate in that situation reveals more about you than it does about her tbh. 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 27, 2019, 11:42:06 AM
It moved lots of people as the majority of reviews on Amazon bear testimony to, probably those who didn't come to the book with their minds already made up that Kate and Gerry were rather unpleasant individuals who deserved everything coming to them.  IMO.  The fact that you could read the book and not feel anything for Kate in that situation reveals more about you than it does about her tbh.

it seems some posters here can read about 30 + people dying in a lorry and not be moved...so no surprise they were not moved by kates book
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 27, 2019, 11:47:51 AM
it seems some posters here can read about 30 + people dying in a lorry and not be moved...so no surprise they were not moved by kates book
Well quite.  It's down to a basic lack of humanity, imo. 
Cue the chirrups of "where was the McCanns humanity when Maddie was crying" - yawn. 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: G-Unit on October 27, 2019, 11:58:20 AM
It moved lots of people as the majority of reviews on Amazon bear testimony to, probably those who didn't come to the book with their minds already made up that Kate and Gerry were rather unpleasant individuals who deserved everything coming to them.  IMO.  The fact that you could read the book and not feel anything for Kate in that situation reveals more about you than it does about her tbh.

The obvious answer to that is that those people also approached the book with their minds already made up. Whatever happened to Madeleine McCann her parents lost a child, but the heartbreak didn't come through to me although I was open to it.

My reaction was not in my control, it was in Kate McCann's.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 27, 2019, 12:14:10 PM
The obvious answer to that is that those people also approached the book with their minds already made up. Whatever happened to Madeleine McCann her parents lost a child, but the heartbreak didn't come through to me although I was open to it.

My reaction was not in my control, it was in Kate McCann's.
If the heartbreak did come through to me and to many others including many professional book reviewers, then the fact that it did not come through to you is surely not Kate's fault!  The only way IMO you could fail to be moved by it is if you were convinced Kate was lying throughout and knows where her child's body is. 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 27, 2019, 12:37:21 PM
"There's not much hard new information in Madeleine, Kate McCann's book about her daughter. But what is new is Kate's powerful and moving description of the horror she has been through, the worst nightmare that any parent can imagine. In the book she describes minute by minute that awful night when ordinary family life for her ended and the nightmare she is still living every day began".
https://www.independent.ie/entertainment/books/review-madeleine-by-kate-mccann-26804033.html

I suppose because this person was "paid for their opinion" you think that means they had to review the book favourably?  That obviously is completely illogical as I'm sure you would realise if you actually thought about it carefully.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 27, 2019, 12:40:01 PM
So, this person wasn't paid for their review
"I am half way through the Madeleine McCann book written by her mother and It filled me with so many emotions whilst reading it, I really feel for their whole family. I pray to God she will be found soon."
Does that mean it is a more reliable review?  Or is her view not valid because the reviewer clearly has sympathy for the family and was moved by Kate's book?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on October 27, 2019, 12:41:55 PM
Not much chance of cutting the Oriental snakeheads off at source, but the wriggling tails here are being dealt with...

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7616919/Death-crash-trucker-charged-39-COUNTS-manslaughter.html (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7616919/Death-crash-trucker-charged-39-COUNTS-manslaughter.html)

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7617881/Essex-migrants-death-suspects-vehicles-seized.html (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7617881/Essex-migrants-death-suspects-vehicles-seized.html)


Indeed the real crime lords are higher up the political spectrum. And in some instances captains of industry. little or no labour costs. I have argued this cause on this forum only to be shouted down as a rascist by the 'McCann supporters strangely enough. (Of whom some belive she was abducted and removed from Portugual-Trafficked). I know I laughed at that as well.

Snowflakes would have open borders free for all. Realists know this is not viable, and ,or sustanable for many reasons.

The life and conditions these duped people are living is unimaginable to any decent thinking person. DoI believe in illegal immigration-No. Do I believe in immigrants comming legally to work and live here- yes.


https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/chinese-snakehead-gang-hunted-over-20719114 (https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/chinese-snakehead-gang-hunted-over-20719114)
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 27, 2019, 12:42:32 PM
Reviewed by Daisy Goodwin for the Sunday Times - is Daisy a paid McCann shill?

"but one of the saddest things in this heartbreaking book is the way that Kate Healy the doctor and person in her own right has had to become Kate McCann, mother of missing Madeleine and mater dolorosa".

Or is Daisy just really stupid and her opinions worthless?

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/madeleine-by-kate-mccann-7nt50mhn39b
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Admin on October 27, 2019, 12:45:18 PM
I have observed an increasing tendency by some posters recently to flaunt the forum rules. There is no place for cheap remarks, sniping or goading on these boards. Do not assume that your comments go unnoticed by the admin team.

The forum rules are there to protect all users from unnecssary abuse, they should be adhered to strictly.

Admin
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on October 27, 2019, 12:46:00 PM
Whether or not a book is good is a matter of opinion, whether it's the opinion of someone being paid for their opinion or not. Kate McCann's book didn't move me at all, and it was nothing to do with me being nasty, childish or anonymous.

It shows you to be an independant thinker.. something the snowflakes want to eradicate for their own agenda.



Incidentally Hitler was nasty ,and evil to normal thinking people-but believed he was doing good for his country -what a huge fail-what is Stalins excuse?  he killed many more millions than Hitler.  He invented the thought police for that era.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 27, 2019, 12:46:36 PM
Another take on Kate's book by a writer in the New Statesman, which gives the completely opposite view of those expressed by anonymous McCann sceptics on the net - how is that possible?  Was the reviewer given a backhander to only write sympathetic things by Team McCann do you think?

"Madeleine is crammed with clichés of this kind, but I confess that, far from bothering me, they drew me in. Kate McCann is not a writer and makes no claims to be one - the power of her book lies in its straightforward, chatty ordinariness. It is hard, too, not to admire its complete lack of self-pity, bolstered by the McCanns’ uncomplicated though sorely tested religious faith. The agony lies in the small, casual detail".

https://www.newstatesman.com/books/2011/05/kate-mccann-madeleine-children
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 27, 2019, 12:48:18 PM
It shows you to be an independant thinker.. something the snowflakes want to eradicate for their own agenda.



Incidentally Hitler was nasty ,and evil to normal thinking people-but believed he was doing good for his country -what a huge fail-what is Stalins excuse?  he killed many more millions than Hitler.  He invented the thought police for that era.
*%87
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 27, 2019, 12:51:05 PM
Another non-professional view of Kate's book

"Heartbreaking

A very emotional and heartbreaking book, written from the heart of a mother to give an account of the truth.

This book makes an important contribution to increasing awareness of the problem of child abductions
and the fact that there are serious shortcomings in how police forces address the problem.
After almost 10 years, Madeleine is still missing.
I hope Madeleine can be found or find her way back home".

I guess this person must be a snowflake, or is he Stalin?  Hard to tell...  *%87
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on October 27, 2019, 12:51:14 PM
I have observed an increasing tendency by some posters recently to flaunt the forum rules. There is no place for cheap remarks, sniping or goading on these boards. Do not assume that your comments go unnoticed by the admin team.

The forum rules are there to protect all users from unnecssary abuse, they should be adhered to strictly.

Admin



Why just observe? why not do something about it?

Admin team encourage it as far as I am conmcerned by allowing mods to call names of members who come to try and discuss issues. They insinuate sceptics  are nasty etc.  delete posts they do not agree with=censorship.


But thanks for letting us know you are observing.

Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 27, 2019, 12:52:27 PM


Why just observe? why not do something about it?

Admin team encourage it as far as I am conmcerned by allowing mods to call names of members who come to try and discuss issues. They insinuate sceptics  are nasty etc.  delete posts they do not agree with=censorship.


But thanks for letting us know you are observing.
Some people here are insinuating that McCann supporters are snowflakes, or like Stalin, or even both at the same time - weird innit??
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on October 27, 2019, 01:03:26 PM
I do not know anyone , from various professions,  in senior positions who felt they needed to know about Kates sex life,or lack of,  nor about her 'abducted by paedophiles' child's torn genitelia. NOT ONE PERSON.

We cannot all act and behave and do as we are told by others,  who believe they have superiority complexes,who are intolerant of our opinions and shout down our right to express them .

Those people are known a sheep in wolves clothing. And so some laugh off a suggestion of independant thinking- just as Stalin did.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 27, 2019, 01:10:56 PM
I do not know anyone , from various professions,  in senior positions who felt they needed to know about Kates sex life,or lack of,  nor about her 'abducted by paedophiles' child's torn genitelia. NOT ONE PERSON.

We cannot all act and behave and do as we are told by others,  who believe they have superiority complexes,who are intolerant of our opinions and shout down our right to express them .

Those people are known a sheep in wolves clothing. And so some laugh off a suggestion of independant thinking- just as Stalin did.
No one needed to know anything about Kate's thoughts or feelings, but anyone who felt they did want to know more, picked up a copy of her book and read it.  No one forced them to, and if didn't realise that it would be a harrowing subject that would have had a profound and shocking effect on its author, well then more fool them.  Anyone who believes Kate should have self-censored to spare these snowflakes' sensibilities is in no position to be calling others names like "snowflakes" or "Stalin", instead they really should get some perspective, learn some basic humanity and grow up. 
IMO
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 27, 2019, 03:25:11 PM
I do not know anyone , from various professions,  in senior positions who felt they needed to know about Kates sex life,or lack of,  nor about her 'abducted by paedophiles' child's torn genitelia. NOT ONE PERSON.

We cannot all act and behave and do as we are told by others,  who believe they have superiority complexes,who are intolerant of our opinions and shout down our right to express them .

Those people are known a sheep in wolves clothing. And so some laugh off a suggestion of independant thinking- just as Stalin did.

 Cant you see you are shouting down kates right to express her feelings. I am a professional im a senior position.
i was interested in reading kates account of her feelings. I didnt need to read it....i read it out of interest.

I fail to see the significnce of your references to Hitler and Stalin
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: jassi on October 27, 2019, 04:19:05 PM
No one needed to know anything about Kate's thoughts or feelings, but anyone who felt they did want to know more, picked up a copy of her book and read it.  No one forced them to, and if didn't realise that it would be a harrowing subject that would have had a profound and shocking effect on its author, well then more fool them.  Anyone who believes Kate should have self-censored to spare these snowflakes' sensibilities is in no position to be calling others names like "snowflakes" or "Stalin", instead they really should get some perspective, learn some basic humanity and grow up. 
IMO


Absolutely right - no need at all.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 27, 2019, 04:28:29 PM

Absolutely right - no need at all
I’m glad you agree, you must therefore also agree that Kate’s detractors actively seek out material about Kate’s thoughts and feelings solely in order to fuel their McCann bashing habit. 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: jassi on October 27, 2019, 04:33:05 PM
I’m glad you agree, you must therefore also agree that Kate’s detractors actively seek out material about Kate’s thoughts and feelings solely in order to fuel their McCann bashing habit.

Afraid not. Not knowing any of Kate's detractors, I couldn't possibly be privy to their motives.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 27, 2019, 04:42:16 PM
Im sure kate isnt at all bothered what a few sceptics here think just as amaral isnt bothered what supporters think of his book.These opinions are of no consequence whatsoever
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 27, 2019, 05:05:07 PM
Afraid not. Not knowing any of Kate's detractors, I couldn't possibly be privy to their motives.
Oh, you don’t know anyone who harps on about “torn genitals” and Kate’s sex life?  Do you not read anyone else’s posts on here, or is it just mine you enjoy? 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: jassi on October 27, 2019, 05:10:13 PM
Oh, you don’t know anyone who harps on about “torn genitals” and Kate’s sex life?  Do you not read anyone else’s posts on here, or is it just mine you enjoy?

Of course I read them, but I don't know the posters, unlike some of the supporters, who I understand actually do know one another and have the occasional get together.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 27, 2019, 05:11:34 PM
Of course I read them, but I don't know the posters, unlike some of the supporters, who I understand actually do know one another and have the occasional get together.

thats news to me
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on October 27, 2019, 05:51:23 PM
Im sure kate isnt at all bothered what a few sceptics here think just as amaral isnt bothered what supporters think of his book.These opinions are of no consequence whatsoever

I agree! So why all the name calling for discussing parts of a book which some people feel is inappropriate at best and creepy at worse.

Some, Who actually spend days of their lives bemoaning about a word b  ew   k for it to be banned. I  mean  come on FGS. This is an adult forum for discussion and debate. Any critical analysis of  the McCanns is described as  mccann bashing. This is seen and known as trolling behaviour, and if mccann bashing is the only come back they have ,that says a lot about them- no argument to offer- just snipe and goad and call names.

In response to your question- no I am not going to highlight your typing and English Grammar mistakes- all of them. Because I don't care enough.

I fail to see the significnce of your references to Hitler and Stalin.


The significance is clear. vs claims sceptics are fascists in some of his posts. All the while behaving like a stalinist himself. The difference is: Hitler controlled Germany from a country in depression and debt to create a new Germany for the benefit of the people. (That was his belief and he did carry out most of that before it all went crazy)  Everyone knows and hears abour Hitler and the gas chambers and slaughter if millions of innocent men women and children.

Stalin, slaughterd many more millions, he was a meglomaniac, and slaughtered anyone who dared to disagree with him , even his own government staff- he did not create a climate of fear and terror within that huge state for the peoples own benefit, it was because he loved the power of instilling fear.  Hitler died Germany got some sense of normality eventually.. Stalin died the terrorised people lived on  for many years!  Terror of not having an independant thought  or disagreeing, however gentle , on any law Stalin decreed to be.


I have never,ever said Kate should not write a book, you made that up. I merely commented on some of the contents. she wrote. and the last time I looked, there is no law stating it must all be positive feedback. and no law saying I must not say anything.

 I would like to remind people here I am not here to defend parents, they are adults and can to that themselves, or accuse them of killing their daughter. I am here to discsuss the real victim in this, the one person who has no voice her name is Madeleine Beth McCann.


Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 27, 2019, 06:08:04 PM
I agree! So why all the name calling for discussing parts of a book which some people feel is inappropriate at best and creepy at worse.

Some, Who actually spend days of their lives bemoaning about a word b  ew   k for it to be banned. I  mean  come on FGS. This is an adult forum for discussion and debate. Any critical analysis of  the McCanns is described as  mccann bashing. This is seen and known as trolling behaviour, and if mccann bashing is the only come back they have ,that says a lot about them- no argument to offer- just snipe and goad and call names.

In response to your question- no I am not going to highlight your typing and English Grammar mistakes- all of them. Because I don't care enough.

I fail to see the significnce of your references to Hitler and Stalin.


The significance is clear. vs claims sceptics are fascists in some of his posts. All the while behaving like a stalinist himself. The difference is: Hitler controlled Germany from a country in depression and debt to create a new Germany for the benefit of the people. (That was his belief and he did carry out most of that before it all went crazy)  Everyone knows and hears abour Hitler and the gas chambers and slaughter if millions of innocent men women and children.

Stalin, slaughterd many more millions, he was a meglomaniac, and slaughtered anyone who dared to disagree with him , even his own government staff- he did not create a climate of fear and terror within that huge state for the peoples own benefit, it was because he loved the power of instilling fear.  Hitler died Germany got some sense of normality eventually.. Stalin died the terrorised people lived on  for many years!  Terror of not having an independant thought  or disagreeing, however gentle , on any law Stalin decreed to be.


I have never,ever said Kate should not write a book, you made that up. I merely commented on some of the contents. she wrote. and the last time I looked, there is no law stating it must all be positive feedback. and no law saying I must not say anything.

 I would like to remind people here I am not here to defend parents, they are adults and can to that themselves, or accuse them of killing their daughter. I am here to discsuss the real victim in this, the one person who has no voice her name is Madeleine Beth McCann.

your post doesnt make any sense....ive not seen any poster described as a fascist....Ive never accused you of saying kate shouldnt write  a book...so you made both those up. You are quite  at liberty to comment on Kates book I merely pointed out the futilty of it...still dont see the relevance of Hitler and Stalin...way off topic
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 27, 2019, 06:11:50 PM
I agree! So why all the name calling for discussing parts of a book which some people feel is inappropriate at best and creepy at worse.

Some, Who actually spend days of their lives bemoaning about a word b  ew   k for it to be banned. I  mean  come on FGS. This is an adult forum for discussion and debate. Any critical analysis of  the McCanns is described as  mccann bashing. This is seen and known as trolling behaviour, and if mccann bashing is the only come back they have ,that says a lot about them- no argument to offer- just snipe and goad and call names.

In response to your question- no I am not going to highlight your typing and English Grammar mistakes- all of them. Because I don't care enough.

I fail to see the significnce of your references to Hitler and Stalin.


The significance is clear. vs claims sceptics are fascists in some of his posts. All the while behaving like a stalinist himself. The difference is: Hitler controlled Germany from a country in depression and debt to create a new Germany for the benefit of the people. (That was his belief and he did carry out most of that before it all went crazy)  Everyone knows and hears abour Hitler and the gas chambers and slaughter if millions of innocent men women and children.

Stalin, slaughterd many more millions, he was a meglomaniac, and slaughtered anyone who dared to disagree with him , even his own government staff- he did not create a climate of fear and terror within that huge state for the peoples own benefit, it was because he loved the power of instilling fear.  Hitler died Germany got some sense of normality eventually.. Stalin died the terrorised people lived on  for many years!  Terror of not having an independant thought  or disagreeing, however gentle , on any law Stalin decreed to be.


I have never,ever said Kate should not write a book, you made that up. I merely commented on some of the contents. she wrote. and the last time I looked, there is no law stating it must all be positive feedback. and no law saying I must not say anything.

 I would like to remind people here I am not here to defend parents, they are adults and can to that themselves, or accuse them of killing their daughter. I am here to discsuss the real victim in this, the one person who has no voice her name is Madeleine Beth McCann.
WTF are you smoking?  I likened Wonderfulspam to Hitler (jokingly) because he confessed to being a racist, who is utterly contemptuous of illegal immigrants and appears to be glad they suffocated in a truck, but he claims to love animals, just as Hitler did.  When else have I compared sceptics to fascists?  Where the hell does Stalin come into it?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 27, 2019, 06:17:01 PM
 What a display of cry-baby righteous indignation, some of it now wiped.  I look forward to wearing my warning points with pride and all  for having upset the delicate little snowflakes on the forum by pointing out  a few home truths.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on October 27, 2019, 06:19:12 PM
your post doesnt make any sense....ive not seen any poster described as a fascist....Ive never accused you of saying kate shouldnt write  a book...so you made both those up. You are quite  at liberty to comment on Kates book I merely pointed out the futilty of it...still dont see the relevance of Hitler and Stalin...way off topic

Ofcourse you do not understand the post- you rarely understand anyones to be honest Davel. because you reply to a different version of what you believe is written.

you said this "Cant you see you are shouting down kates right to express her feelings."

Sounds like you are accusing me of denying Kate her right to write about her feelings, i.e not write a book.    Your misunderstanding (I believe is deliberatly changing meanings to fit an agenda) are well noted.

Hitler and Stalin it is ok you do not understand that bit.. others will.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 27, 2019, 06:23:51 PM
Ofcourse you do not understand the post- you rarely understand anyones to be honest Davel. because you reply to a different version of what you believe is written.

you said this "Cant you see you are shouting down kates right to express her feelings."

Sounds like you are accusing me of denying Kate her right to write about her feelings, i.e not write a book.    Your misunderstanding (I believe is deliberatly changing meanings to fit an agenda) are well noted.

Hitler and Stalin it is ok you do not understand that bit.. others will.

I said shouting down kates right to express  her feelings...kate can write what she wishes in her book...if she wants to use the term torn genitalia...its up to her...its her right

as for stalin and hitler...I still dont see the relevance....The thread is re kates book...could you expalin the relevance of stalin and hitler to kates book...Kate hasnt invaded poland
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 27, 2019, 06:34:06 PM

Seriously...  you need to get a grip.
I thought I was talking your language?  You seem to be sprinkling your posts with references to 20th century despots and appear to be comparing me with Stalin for some inexplicable reason, so ...
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: jassi on October 27, 2019, 06:38:43 PM
I thought I was talking your language?  You seem to be sprinkling your posts with references to 20th century despots and appear to be comparing me with Stalin for some inexplicable reason, so ...

Maybe its the moustache
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 27, 2019, 06:44:10 PM
Quite simply....kate has a right to her book and include what she wishes
sceptics have the right to criticise
supporters have the right to criticise kates critics
none of this involves stalin or hitler
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: jassi on October 27, 2019, 06:46:34 PM
I'm glad we've got that sorted out. Can we move on ?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: G-Unit on October 27, 2019, 06:53:45 PM
What a display of cry-baby righteous indignation, some of it now wiped.  I look forward to wearing my warning points with pride and all  for having upset the delicate little snowflakes on the forum by pointing out  a few home truths.

Telling someone to cease being abusive does not make someone a 'cry-baby'.

The fact that your post was deleted and you have been given points suggests that it was abusive, as I pointed out. You have nothing to be proud of imo.

Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 27, 2019, 06:56:29 PM
Telling someone to cease being abusive does not make someone a 'cry-baby'.

The fact that your post was deleted and you have been given points suggests that it was abusive, as I pointed out. You have nothing to be proud of imo.
as you will agree whether a post is abusive is subjective....spams post was highly abusive...imo...but allowed to stand...was the post telling him to b....r off...also allowed to stand..yes it was
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 27, 2019, 07:20:24 PM
I'm glad we've got that sorted out. Can we move on ?
Thanks.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Angelo222 on October 27, 2019, 07:29:53 PM
as you will agree whether a post is abusive is subjective....spams post was highly abusive...imo...but allowed to stand...was the post telling him to b....r off...also allowed to stand..yes it was

There have been too many nasty comments made recently but it stops now. 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 27, 2019, 07:37:27 PM
There have been too many nasty comments made recently but it stops now.
Then why haven't they been deleted ...I haven't seen many nasty comments... Eleanor's... b....r off... was, probably the worst
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: jassi on October 27, 2019, 07:46:49 PM
Then why haven't they been deleted ...I haven't seen many nasty comments... Eleanor's... b....r off... was, probably the worst


That's cos they've been removed
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 27, 2019, 07:48:43 PM

That's cos they've been removed

Then why is, Angelo addressing the, whole forum and not just those who have made nasty posts
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 27, 2019, 07:51:17 PM
Telling someone to cease being abusive does not make someone a 'cry-baby'.

The fact that your post was deleted and you have been given points suggests that it was abusive, as I pointed out. You have nothing to be proud of imo.
It was not abusive, it was factual, IMO.  You were clearly upset by it but then sometimes the truth hurts.  If you think I have been chastened by being given warning points on this forum you really need to think again. I am not the person who is completely unmoved by the account of the mother of a missing child or those illegal immigrants who died in that lorry, IMO it is those people lacking in basic humanity and compassion who have nothing to be proud of.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 27, 2019, 07:53:27 PM
It was not abusive, it was factual, IMO.  You were clearly upset by it but then sometimes the truth hurts.  If you think I have been chastened by being given warning points on this forum you really need to think again. I am not the person who is completely unmoved by the account of the mother of a missing child or those illegal immigrants who died in that lorry, IMO it is those people lacking in basic humanity and compassion who have nothing to be proud of.

Absolutely agree..
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 27, 2019, 07:59:53 PM
There, are, a, multitude of boards on this forum and this is the only one being posted on... If this board goes, all Johns, hard, work is finished.  I think mods need to think about ways of encouraging posters not deterring them
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 27, 2019, 08:05:10 PM
I'm glad we've got that sorted out. Can we move on ?
Sure, which part of Kate’s book would you like to slag off next?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: jassi on October 27, 2019, 08:27:48 PM
Sure, which part of Kate’s book would you like to slag off next?


Whichever bit of her witterings you care to choose.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Erngath on October 27, 2019, 08:36:39 PM

Whichever bit of her witterings you care to choose.

Perhaps you should do the choosing of her " witterings"  first .
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: G-Unit on October 27, 2019, 08:40:56 PM
It was not abusive, it was factual, IMO.  You were clearly upset by it but then sometimes the truth hurts.  If you think I have been chastened by being given warning points on this forum you really need to think again. I am not the person who is completely unmoved by the account of the mother of a missing child or those illegal immigrants who died in that lorry, IMO it is those people lacking in basic humanity and compassion who have nothing to be proud of.

Please don't flatter yourself. Nothing you say can upset me because none of it is true. I was annoyed by the fact that the powers that be seem more interested in threats than action. You are now being 'watched' but despite continuing to be abusive you seem to be getting away with it still.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: jassi on October 27, 2019, 08:41:05 PM
Perhaps you should do the choosing of her " witterings"  first .


No, I'll leave that to those who've read her epic
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Erngath on October 27, 2019, 08:52:04 PM

No, I'll leave that to those who've read her epic

It isn't an "epic"
Have you read her book
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: jassi on October 27, 2019, 08:56:15 PM
It isn't an "epic"
Have you read her book

You amaze me. I thought is was supposed to be a literary masterpiece worthy of the highest awards for fiction.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Erngath on October 27, 2019, 09:01:46 PM
You amaze me. I thought is was supposed to be a literary masterpiece worthy of the highest awards for fiction.

Did you believe that?
I didn't.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: jassi on October 27, 2019, 09:04:21 PM
Did you believe that?
I didn't.


Not really  8(0(*, but it was certainly a waste of some perfectly good tress.  IMO
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 27, 2019, 09:12:26 PM
Please don't flatter yourself. Nothing you say can upset me because none of it is true. I was annoyed by the fact that the powers that be seem more interested in threats than action. You are now being 'watched' but despite continuing to be abusive you seem to be getting away with it still.
You beseeched me to stop “abusing” you - you seemed pretty upset to me.  I suggest you take your fight to the mods directly, see what you can do to shut me up.  Good luck!
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 27, 2019, 09:13:43 PM

Whichever bit of her witterings you care to choose.
I have no desire to slag off Kate’s book.  I think it is an extremely unedifying pastime.  You however seem to enjoy it, so perhaps you should do the choosing, eh?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 27, 2019, 09:16:01 PM
You amaze me. I thought is was supposed to be a literary masterpiece worthy of the highest awards for fiction.
You see, if I call this comment nasty, cheap, childish,typical sceptic garbage  I’d probably be accused of being abusive, despite being completely accurate in my description.  Oh well...
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: jassi on October 27, 2019, 09:17:36 PM
You see, if I call this comment nasty, cheap, childish,typical sceptic garbage  I’d probably be accused of being abusive, despite being completely accurate in my description.  Oh well...


Boo Hoo  poor you
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 27, 2019, 09:17:58 PM

Not really  8(0(*, but it was certainly a waste of some perfectly good tress.  IMO
Your life has only been enriched by Kate’s book, and don’t pretend otherwise.  Just think of the numerous opportunities it has given you to be nasty, something that clearly gives you great satisfaction.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 27, 2019, 09:18:56 PM

Boo Hoo  poor you
Surely you can do better than that?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: jassi on October 27, 2019, 09:20:14 PM
Your life has only been enriched by Kate’s book, and don’t pretend otherwise.  Just think of the numerous opportunities it has given you to be nasty, something that clearly gives you great satisfaction.

Don't forget the added bonus of getting you to come out all righteous and sanctimonious  @)(++(*
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Erngath on October 27, 2019, 09:27:29 PM
Don't forget the added bonus of getting you to come out all righteous and sanctimonious  @)(++(*

And the opposite of those adjectives are ?


Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 27, 2019, 09:48:46 PM
Don't forget the added bonus of getting you to come out all righteous and sanctimonious  @)(++(*
Nope, just saying it as I see it, honestly and truthfully, with no hyperbole.  It’s neither righteous nor sanctimonious to point out when people are being complete dicks, imo. 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Angelo222 on October 27, 2019, 10:52:56 PM
Then why haven't they been deleted ...I haven't seen many nasty comments... Eleanor's... b....r off... was, probably the worst

An admin was tasked with monitoring the forum today and they removed the offending comment and those which followed.  There is no need for anyone to be purposely abusive, such conduct renders their arguments stone dead.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: G-Unit on October 27, 2019, 11:05:14 PM
You beseeched me to stop “abusing” you - you seemed pretty upset to me.  I suggest you take your fight to the mods directly, see what you can do to shut me up.  Good luck!

Beseeched? Don't make me laugh! I told you to stop being abusive and someone removed your abusive post and sanctioned you for breaching forum rules. It's not for me to 'shut you up', it's the responsibility of those who are tasked with dealing with members who have pretty much acknowledged that they have no respect for the forum or it's rules imo.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 28, 2019, 07:27:03 AM
Beseeched? Don't make me laugh! I told you to stop being abusive and someone removed your abusive post and sanctioned you for breaching forum rules. It's not for me to 'shut you up', it's the responsibility of those who are tasked with dealing with members who have pretty much acknowledged that they have no respect for the forum or it's rules imo.
I have no respect for those who seem to dedicate all their spare time to denigrating a woman who wrote a well received and best selling book about the trauma of losing her child, who pick on every word of that book to question, doubt,  ridicule and pretend to be outraged by and who are able to read it and yet remain completely unmoved by it.  Perhaps I should just feel sorry for such people as clearly they don’t like it up ‘em.  It may have escaped your attention but during the heated debate yesterday I too was “abused” but I didn’t cry about it or beg my abuser to desist. 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: The General on October 28, 2019, 07:35:20 AM
I turn my back for 2 days and all hell breaks loose. NOW PACK IT IN, ALL OF YOU!




(I have no idea what's been going on, so please feel free to not pack it in).
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 28, 2019, 07:44:27 AM
Have we reached the ridiculous level where any criticism of another poster is termed abuse.  That's how it seems to me
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 28, 2019, 07:51:44 AM
He only left the apartment at 20:35 so I don't believe he went to the toilet so no flush 8(0(*

JW also claims he used the loo at tapas having only recently left his apartment. 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: The General on October 28, 2019, 07:56:21 AM
Have we reached the ridiculous level where any criticism of another poster is termed abuse.  That's how it seems to me
I think you've nailed it; criticise the content, not the poster.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 28, 2019, 08:03:33 AM
Have we reached the ridiculous level where any criticism of another poster is termed abuse.  That's how it seems to me

Any criticism needs to be directed at post content not the poster. 

Most intelligent adults manage to debate and discuss contentious issues in places like HoC and on programmes such as Newsnight and Question Time without the need to make it personal. 

Think Jerry Paxman, Kirsty Wark, Fiona Bruce, the various guests, Newsnight and Question Time - V - Jeremy Kyle and the baying masses.

Think of the mods here as John Bercow:  O-R-D-E-R, O-R-D-E-R  8)-)))   
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 28, 2019, 08:06:21 AM
I’m not really sure why it’s ok to criticise and accuse the author as well as the content, just so long as the author isn’t a member and probably won’t ever read the content (but could if she googled it) and NOT ok to criticise and accuse members here who at least have the right of reply and can thrash it out in a good ol’ cat fight?  Perhaps a learned Mod could explain.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 28, 2019, 08:10:04 AM
Any criticism needs to be directed at post content not the poster. 

Most intelligent adults manage to debate and discuss contentious issues in places like HoC and on programmes such as Newsnight and Question Time without the need to make it personal. 

Think Jerry Paxman, Kirsty Wark, Fiona Bruce, the various guests, Newsnight and Question Time - V - Jeremy Kyle and the baying masses.

Think of the mods here as John Bercow:  O-R-D-E-R, O-R-D-E-R  8)-)))

Many.. Many.. post contain criticism of the poster.... Yours included... In a debate it's impossible not to make it imply some criticism. Can we expect you to lead the way now in not making any criticism of the poster in your postd

You are, also wrong about debate on TV... Boris was referred to as liar several times recently... The debates can become extremely personal
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 28, 2019, 08:23:57 AM
I agree! So why all the name calling for discussing parts of a book which some people feel is inappropriate at best and creepy at worse.

Some, Who actually spend days of their lives bemoaning about a word b  ew   k for it to be banned. I  mean  come on FGS. This is an adult forum for discussion and debate. Any critical analysis of  the McCanns is described as  mccann bashing. This is seen and known as trolling behaviour, and if mccann bashing is the only come back they have ,that says a lot about them- no argument to offer- just snipe and goad and call names.

In response to your question- no I am not going to highlight your typing and English Grammar mistakes- all of them. Because I don't care enough.

I fail to see the significnce of your references to Hitler and Stalin.


The significance is clear. vs claims sceptics are fascists in some of his posts. All the while behaving like a stalinist himself. The difference is: Hitler controlled Germany from a country in depression and debt to create a new Germany for the benefit of the people. (That was his belief and he did carry out most of that before it all went crazy)  Everyone knows and hears abour Hitler and the gas chambers and slaughter if millions of innocent men women and children.

Stalin, slaughterd many more millions, he was a meglomaniac, and slaughtered anyone who dared to disagree with him , even his own government staff- he did not create a climate of fear and terror within that huge state for the peoples own benefit, it was because he loved the power of instilling fear.  Hitler died Germany got some sense of normality eventually.. Stalin died the terrorised people lived on  for many years!  Terror of not having an independant thought  or disagreeing, however gentle , on any law Stalin decreed to be.


I have never,ever said Kate should not write a book, you made that up. I merely commented on some of the contents. she wrote. and the last time I looked, there is no law stating it must all be positive feedback. and no law saying I must not say anything.

 I would like to remind people here I am not here to defend parents, they are adults and can to that themselves, or accuse them of killing their daughter. I am here to discsuss the real victim in this, the one person who has no voice her name is Madeleine Beth McCann.
Could a mod here please explain why I get points for “abuse” but this little madam is allowed to accuse me of being like one of the world’s worst mass murderers ever without any sanctions at all, and the post is allowed to remain?  Obviously the comparison is laughable so I don’t object to it, but what I do object to is the un evenhanded approach on this forum to doling out points.  I look forward to further explanation.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 28, 2019, 08:25:32 AM
Many.. Many.. post contain criticism of the poster.... Yours included... In a debate it's impossible not to make it imply some criticism. Can we expect you to lead the way now in not making any criticism of the poster in your postd

You are, also wrong about debate on TV... Boris was referred to as liar several times recently... The debates can become extremely personal

Perhaps you can give me an example? 

HoC can be somewhat of a bear pit but look to the likes of Newsnight, QT and other such programmes. 



Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 28, 2019, 08:30:51 AM
Perhaps you can give me an example? 

HoC can be somewhat of a bear pit but look to the likes of Newsnight, QT and other such programmes.

An example would be you telling me i would have a void in my life if I stopped posting here....anothe is a paost from Rob last week towards me


Kate believed in God, you don't.
Gerry fell on the ground and prayed like an Arab, I doubt if you would do that.



Rob telling me what I would or wouldnt do...how more personal can you get
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 28, 2019, 08:30:58 AM
I have no respect for those who seem to dedicate all their spare time to denigrating a woman who wrote a well received and best selling book about the trauma of losing her child, who pick on every word of that book to question, doubt,  ridicule and pretend to be outraged by and who are able to read it and yet remain completely unmoved by it.  Perhaps I should just feel sorry for such people as clearly they don’t like it up ‘em.  It may have escaped your attention but during the heated debate yesterday I too was “abused” but I didn’t cry about it or beg my abuser to desist.

The PB hasn't been well received by all as per ratings and comments on Amazon and in fact overall ratings have been less favorable than other PB's in the same genre:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Madeleine-daughters-disappearance-continuing-search/dp/0552165158

KM isn't the only person to have suffered some ghastly trauma. 

Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 28, 2019, 08:32:56 AM
An example would be you telling me i would have a void in my life if I stopped posting here....anothe is a paost from Rob last week towards me


Kate believed in God, you don't.
Gerry fell on the ground and prayed like an Arab, I doubt if you would do that.



Rob telling me what I wuld or wouldnt do...how more personal can you get

I'm sorry Davel I have no idea what you're referring to.  Can you link me to the posts please.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 28, 2019, 08:35:45 AM
I'm sorry Davel I have no idea what you're referring to.  Can you link me to the posts please.

I cant link to your pos as John removed it...can you not remember your own posts.

The point Im making is taht there are constant posts that could be seen as personal
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: John on October 28, 2019, 08:38:52 AM
An example would be you telling me i would have a void in my life if I stopped posting here....anothe is a paost from Rob last week towards me


Kate believed in God, you don't.
Gerry fell on the ground and prayed like an Arab, I doubt if you would do that.



Rob telling me what I wuld or wouldnt do...how more personal can you get

I have brought these issues to the attention of moderators.  The rules apply to every member equally.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 28, 2019, 08:40:51 AM
I'm sorry Davel I have no idea what you're referring to.  Can you link me to the posts please.

it seems John noted them...two personal comments by moderators towards me......
i didnt complain about either of them
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 28, 2019, 08:45:26 AM
The PB hasn't been well received by all as per ratings and comments on Amazon and in fact overall ratings have been less favorable than other PB's in the same genre:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Madeleine-daughters-disappearance-continuing-search/dp/0552165158

KM isn't the only person to have suffered some ghastly trauma.

I think 4 stars from almost 800 reviews is extremely good.....
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 28, 2019, 08:46:38 AM
I'm sorry Davel I have no idea what you're referring to.  Can you link me to the posts please.

im fine in going forward with absolutely no personal comments...that includes mods who have been just as guilty
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 28, 2019, 08:48:14 AM
it seems John noted them...two personal comments by moderators towards me......
i didnt complain about either of them

I don't claim to be perfect Davel.  My stats show I make on average 3.838 posts per day and I know for sure the vast majority ie something like 99% are benign and case related. 




Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 28, 2019, 08:55:19 AM
I think 4 stars from almost 800 reviews is extremely good.....

Similar books receive 5 stars eg:

Denise Fergus - James Bulger

Gemma Dowler - Milly Dowler

Melanie Jones - Rhys Jones

Kerry Needham - Ben Needham

I haven't read any of the above but imo KM comes over as having a sense of entitlement.   
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 28, 2019, 08:56:00 AM
An example would be you telling me i would have a void in my life if I stopped posting here....anothe is a paost from Rob last week towards me


Kate believed in God, you don't.
Gerry fell on the ground and prayed like an Arab, I doubt if you would do that.



Rob telling me what I would or wouldnt do...how more personal can you get
Kate's book is quite religious IMO.

Davel I'm sure you have told the forum that you aren't religious (that might be 1 year back now).
Gerry fell on the ground and prayed like an Arab.  Would you do that?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: G-Unit on October 28, 2019, 08:56:22 AM
I have no respect for those who seem to dedicate all their spare time to denigrating a woman who wrote a well received and best selling book about the trauma of losing her child, who pick on every word of that book to question, doubt,  ridicule and pretend to be outraged by and who are able to read it and yet remain completely unmoved by it.  Perhaps I should just feel sorry for such people as clearly they don’t like it up ‘em.  It may have escaped your attention but during the heated debate yesterday I too was “abused” but I didn’t cry about it or beg my abuser to desist.

Whatever you think abusing other members is not the answer.

You certainly have a talent for misrepresentation. I neither cried nor begged, I strongly objected to your abuse and told you to stop.

Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: ShiningInLuz on October 28, 2019, 08:59:12 AM
Returning to the topic.

I read the book by sheer chance.  I had no knowledge of the case and no preconceptions.

I would categorise the book as an attempt at PR/image management.

Whilst I didn't formulate the thought then, I have come to the opinion that Madeleine is not the principal focus.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 28, 2019, 09:02:43 AM
Returning to the topic.

I read the book by sheer chance.  I had no knowledge of the case and no preconceptions.

I would categorise the book as an attempt at PR/image management.

Whilst I didn't formulate the thought then, I have come to the opinion that Madeleine is not the principal focus.
What is the principle focus then?  I thought it might be whether faith will prevail.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 28, 2019, 09:03:53 AM
Returning to the topic.

I read the book by sheer chance.  I had no knowledge of the case and no preconceptions.

I would categorise the book as an attempt at PR/image management.

Whilst I didn't formulate the thought then, I have come to the opinion that Madeleine is not the principal focus.

Yes that pretty well sums up my thoughts. 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Brietta on October 28, 2019, 09:05:58 AM
Returning to the topic.

I read the book by sheer chance.  I had no knowledge of the case and no preconceptions.

I would categorise the book as an attempt at PR/image management.

Whilst I didn't formulate the thought then, I have come to the opinion that Madeleine is not the principal focus.

What do you think the principal focus is?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 28, 2019, 09:06:14 AM
I don't claim to be perfect Davel.  My stats show I make on average 3.838 posts per day and I know for sure the vast majority ie something like 99% are benign and case related.
as are mine
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 28, 2019, 09:07:10 AM
Returning to the topic.

I read the book by sheer chance.  I had no knowledge of the case and no preconceptions.

I would categorise the book as an attempt at PR/image management.

Whilst I didn't formulate the thought then, I have come to the opinion that Madeleine is not the principal focus.

i would say the book was written to raise money because maddie is the principal focus
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 28, 2019, 09:07:31 AM
Kate's book is quite religious IMO.

Davel I'm sure you have told the forum that you aren't religious (that might be 1 year back now).
Gerry fell on the ground and prayed like an Arab.  Would you do that?

I wouldn't describe it as religious but she was brought up in the Catholic faith which she continues to believe in despite the tragedy that has befallen her and so yes she makes reference from time-to-time about her belief in the power of prayer. 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 28, 2019, 09:09:25 AM
Kate's book is quite religious IMO.

Davel I'm sure you have told the forum that you aren't religious (that might be 1 year back now).
Gerry fell on the ground and prayed like an Arab.  Would you do that?

none of your business really rob
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 28, 2019, 09:14:38 AM
I wouldn't describe it as religious but she was brought up in the Catholic faith which she continues to believe in despite the tragedy that has befallen her and so yes she makes reference from time-to-time about her belief in the power of prayer.
Well I remember that Kate included many of her prayers in the book.  OK if she does make reference to "her belief in the power of prayer", it will become a most remarkable book if ever Madeleine is found to be still alive after all of these years.  If she has never lost her faith.  IMO Most people would have given up by now.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: ShiningInLuz on October 28, 2019, 09:16:38 AM
What do you think the principal focus is?

For me, it remains as image management.

It is akin to picking up Antony and Cleopatra, only to find they are not the principal characters.

That split still appears to permeate this forum.  Is Madeleine the main focus?

Hand on heart I would have to say that for many here it appears not.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Brietta on October 28, 2019, 09:19:03 AM
Kate's book is quite religious IMO.

Davel I'm sure you have told the forum that you aren't religious (that might be 1 year back now).
Gerry fell on the ground and prayed like an Arab.  Would you do that?

I don't think it at all surprising that anyone in the circumstances Gerry found himself in would be overcome and collapse in despair at the enormity of it all.
I think the description of it and the parents' distress as portrayed in Amaral's documentary quite extraordinary and puts the descriptive Tweedledum and Tweedledee in Kate's book into perspective.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 28, 2019, 09:20:12 AM
none of your business really rob
Well I forget what prompted me to ask you about your faith, but at times I have been really offended by your criticism of mine.  Yet you back Kate who is a lot more religious than me.  I find that hard to understand.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Lace on October 28, 2019, 09:21:19 AM
I have no respect for those who seem to dedicate all their spare time to denigrating a woman who wrote a well received and best selling book about the trauma of losing her child, who pick on every word of that book to question, doubt,  ridicule and pretend to be outraged by and who are able to read it and yet remain completely unmoved by it.  Perhaps I should just feel sorry for such people as clearly they don’t like it up ‘em.  It may have escaped your attention but during the heated debate yesterday I too was “abused” but I didn’t cry about it or beg my abuser to desist.

I don't think Kate professed to being a talented 'writer'  she just did her best with the use of her diary to describe to the reader what happened on the night of 3rd of May and the following days.

So to ridicule what she has written [which is usually by those who have the belief that Kate is some how guilty of hiding Madeleine's body and knowing that she is dead]   is just something that is quite sad in my opinion.

There have been the outrage 'how dare she talk about Madeleine's private parts like that'  to the ridiculous 'It's all about Kate nothing about Madeleine'   'Madeleine should have a capital M'.

I would just like to ask if you were writing a  book about your missing child and describing the horror of finding her missing,  to the absolute disbelief when you are accused of having something to do with your child's disappearance,  added to that,  the continual torment of your imagination playing havoc with your mind to having the person leading the investigation write a book saying your child was dead and you hid her body.

How would you go about it?   For one,  I don't think you would fill the book about Madeleine,   what would you say?   Madeleine lived at @@@@@@  she went to nursery at @@@@@@ she was due to attend school at @@@@@   what would any of this information matter to anyone?   I find it very strange that people actually want to know the ins and outs of a child who wasn't even four when she disappeared.    The book title was no doubt left to the Publisher.   As to the description of Madeleine's private parts being torn apart,  I thought Kate was very honest there,  saying 'I was plagued by visions of what a Paedophile was doing to my child'  would not have cut to the very sole of a reader as much as 'torn genitals' would.   That picture would be the horror of horrors.  Kate wasn't showing a picture,  she could have been describing any innocent child's private parts it was the horrifying picture she wanted to drum home. 

To feel no emotion when reading Kates book is very strange.   Maybe these people have no children and have never had the absolute love you feel for your child.   When you lose them for a short time,  the dread and fear that you feel,  it's as if your heart is going to stop,  your knees give in and you feel cut off from reality.   When you find your  child, the relief is over whelming.   I really can't imagine what it must have been like to not find your child and to live with the loss day after day.  I think Kate did well to try and give the reader a slight insight into her existence without Madeleine.

Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 28, 2019, 09:24:31 AM
Well I remember that Kate included many of her prayers in the book.  OK if she does make reference to "her belief in the power of prayer", it will become a most remarkable book if ever Madeleine is found to be still alive after all of these years.  If she has never lost her faith.  IMO Most people would have given up by now.

Afaik she does not quote any prayers just refers to praying at times and asking others to do the same. 

If MM is found alive I doubt it will have anything to do with any God(s) and/or praying.

KM mentions that GM has questioned the power of prayer. 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 28, 2019, 09:27:21 AM
Well I forget what prompted me to ask you about your faith, but at times I have been really offended by your criticism of mine.  Yet you back Kate who is a lot more religious than me.  I find that hard to understand.

Most if your post is personal and against forum rules.. I'm entitled to criticise any religion... That's a given...
I support Kates claim to innocence... I'm entitled to that opinion... Anything else
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 28, 2019, 09:27:43 AM
I don't think it at all surprising that anyone in the circumstances Gerry found himself in would be overcome and collapse in despair at the enormity of it all.
I think the description of it and the parents' distress as portrayed in Amaral's documentary quite extraordinary and puts the descriptive Tweedledum and Tweedledee in Kate's book into perspective.
Members of churches that could be described as "Pentecostals" would have no issue in humbling themselves.
Unless you have experienced those sort of behaviours one could think of it a bit strange. 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 28, 2019, 09:29:23 AM
For me, it remains as image management.

It is akin to picking up Antony and Cleopatra, only to find they are not the principal characters.

That split still appears to permeate this forum.  Is Madeleine the main focus?

Hand on heart I would have to say that for many here it appears not.

Do you have a cite for.. Many it appears not... I don't think that's at all true
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 28, 2019, 09:30:53 AM
I don't think it at all surprising that anyone in the circumstances Gerry found himself in would be overcome and collapse in despair at the enormity of it all.
I think the description of it and the parents' distress as portrayed in Amaral's documentary quite extraordinary and puts the descriptive Tweedledum and Tweedledee in Kate's book into perspective.

But even a crack team could amount to Tweededum and Tweeledee if they are fed inaccurate info by one of the most important witnesses.  Initially GM claimed he was using the front door and not the unsecured patio doors which he later changed.  KM claimed she found the window open and the shutter raised.  Given the info the GNR officers received from the McCanns its hardly surprising the investigation got off to a bad start.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 28, 2019, 09:31:30 AM
Members of churches that could be described as "Pentecostals" would have no issue in humbling themselves.
Unless you have experienced those sort of behaviours one could think of it a bit strange.

I see nothing strange at two absolutely distraught parents thriwng themselves to their knees... I find it strange it being described as praying like, arabs
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Brietta on October 28, 2019, 09:32:00 AM
For me, it remains as image management.

It is akin to picking up Antony and Cleopatra, only to find they are not the principal characters.

That split still appears to permeate this forum.  Is Madeleine the main focus?

Hand on heart I would have to say that for many here it appears not.

I don't think Kate McCann particularly wanted to bare her soul in a book.
I think one must refer to the context and to the time when Kate wrote her book about Madeleine.

In 2010 her little girl had been missing after vanishing from her bed in 2007 and no-one was looking for her with the exception of private detectives paid for by Madeleine's Fund which had been set up for that purpose.

Snip
All proceeds from it will go to the McCanns' official fund to look for Madeleine, which had been in danger of running out next year.

"My reason for writing is simple: to give an account of the truth," said Kate McCann. "Publishing this book has been a very difficult decision, and is one that we have taken after much deliberation and with a very heavy heart.

"However, in the last few months, with the depletion of Madeleine's fund, it is a decision that has virtually been taken out of our hands. Every penny we raise through its sales will be spent on our search for Madeleine. Nothing is more important to us than finding our little girl."

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2010/nov/15/mcanns-book-search-madeleine
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 28, 2019, 09:32:59 AM
But even a crack team could amount to Tweededum and Tweeledee if they are fed inaccurate info by one of the most important witnesses.  Initially GM claimed he was using the front door and not the unsecured patio doors which he later changed.  KM claimed she found the window open and the shutter raised.  Given the info the GNR officers received from the McCanns its hardly surprising the investigation got off to a bad start.

I think it's quite possible that Gerry never claimed he was using the front door.... It was a lost in translation moment.. Imo
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Angelo222 on October 28, 2019, 09:33:19 AM
I don't think it at all surprising that anyone in the circumstances Gerry found himself in would be overcome and collapse in despair at the enormity of it all.
I think the description of it and the parents' distress as portrayed in Amaral's documentary quite extraordinary and puts the descriptive Tweedledum and Tweedledee in Kate's book into perspective.

Sorry but I totally disagree Brietta.  The police bent over backwards to accommodate the McCanns in what was very difficult circumstances and caused in part by the McCanns interfering friends who created the circus.

The police were correct to suspect the McCanns and Kate's refusal to answer the simplest of questions only reinforced their suspicions.  Having a go at several police officers in her book was nothing more than sour grapes.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 28, 2019, 09:35:51 AM
Most if your post is personal and against forum rules.. I'm entitled to criticise any religion... That's a given...
I support Kates claim to innocence... I'm entitled to that opinion... Anything else
Remind me of Kate's claim to innocence?  I recall Gerry's claim but did Kate do the same?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 28, 2019, 09:37:17 AM
Sorry but I totally disagree Brietta.  The police bent over backwards to accommodate the McCanns in what was very difficult circumstances and caused in part by the McCanns interfering friends who created the circus.

The police were correct to suspect the McCanns and Kate's refusal to answer the simplest of questions only reinforced their suspicions.

The PJ were absolutely right to suspect the mccanns... Unfortunately they then tried to make the evidence fit. .when ut didn't.. To support their suspicions.. Thst was their gross failure.. Imo... And where the search fir maddue was, seriously ket down by their failings
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: ShiningInLuz on October 28, 2019, 09:38:44 AM
Do you have a cite for.. Many it appears not... I don't think that's at all true

I don't need a cite for my opinion.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 28, 2019, 09:39:02 AM
Remind me of Kate's claim to innocence?  I recall Gerry's claim but did Kate do the same?

So you don't think Kate claims to be innocent..
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 28, 2019, 09:39:56 AM
I don't need a cite for my opinion.

I never said you did.   ...I asked if you had one.. Your post makes it clear it us merely your opinion
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 28, 2019, 09:41:20 AM
Well I forget what prompted me to ask you about your faith, but at times I have been really offended by your criticism of mine.  Yet you back Kate who is a lot more religious than me.  I find that hard to understand.

I don't think there's any evidence KM was/is particularly religious.

She was brought up in the Catholic faith and by her own admission only went through a very brief phrase when she questioned such which will not please the likes of Richard Dawkins. 

As I've posted previously if KM's faith was strong then why didn't she go along to mass on hol pre MM's disappearance?   
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 28, 2019, 09:45:07 AM
keep to the topic of Kate's book. 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: ShiningInLuz on October 28, 2019, 09:45:43 AM
I don't think Kate McCann particularly wanted to bare her soul in a book.
I think one must refer to the context and to the time when Kate wrote her book about Madeleine.

In 2010 her little girl had been missing after vanishing from her bed in 2007 and no-one was looking for her with the exception of private detectives paid for by Madeleine's Fund which had been set up for that purpose.

Snip
All proceeds from it will go to the McCanns' official fund to look for Madeleine, which had been in danger of running out next year.

"My reason for writing is simple: to give an account of the truth," said Kate McCann. "Publishing this book has been a very difficult decision, and is one that we have taken after much deliberation and with a very heavy heart.

"However, in the last few months, with the depletion of Madeleine's fund, it is a decision that has virtually been taken out of our hands. Every penny we raise through its sales will be spent on our search for Madeleine. Nothing is more important to us than finding our little girl."

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2010/nov/15/mcanns-book-search-madeleine

As I didn't have the context at the time I read the book, my view was formed context-free.

Perhaps all of the other reviewers were well-informed as to the context when they read the book.  I don't remember anything in 'madeleine' suggesting that the context should be known prior to reading the book.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Brietta on October 28, 2019, 09:47:35 AM
I don't think Kate professed to being a talented 'writer'  she just did her best with the use of her diary to describe to the reader what happened on the night of 3rd of May and the following days.

So to ridicule what she has written [which is usually by those who have the belief that Kate is some how guilty of hiding Madeleine's body and knowing that she is dead]   is just something that is quite sad in my opinion.

There have been the outrage 'how dare she talk about Madeleine's private parts like that'  to the ridiculous 'It's all about Kate nothing about Madeleine'   'Madeleine should have a capital M'.

I would just like to ask if you were writing a  book about your missing child and describing the horror of finding her missing,  to the absolute disbelief when you are accused of having something to do with your child's disappearance,  added to that,  the continual torment of your imagination playing havoc with your mind to having the person leading the investigation write a book saying your child was dead and you hid her body.

How would you go about it?   For one,  I don't think you would fill the book about Madeleine,   what would you say?   Madeleine lived at @@@@@@  she went to nursery at @@@@@@ she was due to attend school at @@@@@   what would any of this information matter to anyone?   I find it very strange that people actually want to know the ins and outs of a child who wasn't even four when she disappeared.    The book title was no doubt left to the Publisher.   As to the description of Madeleine's private parts being torn apart,  I thought Kate was very honest there,  saying 'I was plagued by visions of what a Paedophile was doing to my child'  would not have cut to the very sole of a reader as much as 'torn genitals' would.   That picture would be the horror of horrors.  Kate wasn't showing a picture,  she could have been describing any innocent child's private parts it was the horrifying picture she wanted to drum home. 

To feel no emotion when reading Kates book is very strange.   Maybe these people have no children and have never had the absolute love you feel for your child.   When you lose them for a short time,  the dread and fear that you feel,  it's as if your heart is going to stop,  your knees give in and you feel cut off from reality.   When you find your  child, the relief is over whelming.   I really can't imagine what it must have been like to not find your child and to live with the loss day after day.  I think Kate did well to try and give the reader a slight insight into her existence without Madeleine.

Kate McCann's book sat in my bookcase for a long, long time before I read it because I knew it was going to be a painful read.
I think in your post you have illustrated succinctly how the absence of the three year old impacted on her family as much as the event of her disappearance did and resulted in the way in which Kate recorded it.  By the time Kate wrote her book, Madeleine had been missing from their lives for almost as long as she had been with them.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: ShiningInLuz on October 28, 2019, 09:49:53 AM
I never said you did.   ...I asked if you had one.. Your post makes it clear it us merely your opinion

My original post made it clear it was my opinion.

Therefore there was no need to request a cite, nor point out that my post was my opinion.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 28, 2019, 09:54:41 AM
I think it's quite possible that Gerry never claimed he was using the front door.... It was a lost in translation moment.. Imo

But all the supporting docs suggest it was GM who was in error and not the translators.

Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: G-Unit on October 28, 2019, 09:56:52 AM
I see nothing strange at two absolutely distraught parents thriwng themselves to their knees... I find it strange it being described as praying like, arabs

Who said they were praying? Not Sylvia Batista, who first coined the phrase;

Then Gerry kneeled down, hit the floor with both hands, positioning himself as if he were a praying Arab, and screamed twice of anger, what he said being impossible to understand.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/SILVIA_BATISTA.htm

Not Nelson da Costa;

He found it notable that when they were still at the main reception, the father kneeled down, laying his head on the ground and crying, at the same time as making an expression which the witness did not understand.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/NELSON-DA-COSTA.htm

Not his colleague either;

After the search, he noticed a situation that seemed unusual to him, when at a determined moment, the girl's parents kneeled down on the floor of their bedroom and placed their heads on the bed, crying. He did not notice any comments or expression from them, just crying. He says that at the main reception the father also knelt down, placing his head on the floor and crying. He did not hear the father say anything.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOSE_ROQUE.htm
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 28, 2019, 10:00:48 AM
I don't think there's any evidence KM was/is particularly religious.

She was brought up in the Catholic faith and by her own admission only went through a very brief phrase when she questioned such which will not please the likes of Richard Dawkins. 

As I've posted previously if KM's faith was strong then why didn't she go along to mass on hol pre MM's disappearance?
OK I think we  have a different view of what faith means.  I don't relate it to going to church but in what she says in words.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Angelo222 on October 28, 2019, 10:02:43 AM
I see nothing strange at two absolutely distraught parents thriwng themselves to their knees... I find it strange it being described as praying like, arabs

Probably alcohol related imo.  People often do strange things when they've had a few.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 28, 2019, 10:13:25 AM
OK I think we  have a different view of what faith means.  I don't relate it to going to church but in what she says in words.

Faith = strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof.

Which particular words are you referring to?

I don't see any evidence that Catholicism played a significant part in KM's life pre or post MM's disappearance.  Afaik the Catholic church opposes IVF.  By her own admission it is something she uses in times of trouble like I might use a brisk walk in the countryside and a glass of very strong Belgium beer!
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 28, 2019, 10:14:40 AM
But all the supporting docs suggest it was GM who was in error and not the translators.

By all the supporting docs I think you will find are written in Portuguese by the translators.  We know from kates book that when she questioned a translator the translator became quite angry.  Without something direct from Gerry just we don't know
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Brietta on October 28, 2019, 10:16:18 AM
Who said they were praying? Not Sylvia Batista, who first coined the phrase;

Then Gerry kneeled down, hit the floor with both hands, positioning himself as if he were a praying Arab, and screamed twice of anger, what he said being impossible to understand.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/SILVIA_BATISTA.htm

Not Nelson da Costa;

He found it notable that when they were still at the main reception, the father kneeled down, laying his head on the ground and crying, at the same time as making an expression which the witness did not understand.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/NELSON-DA-COSTA.htm

Not his colleague either;

After the search, he noticed a situation that seemed unusual to him, when at a determined moment, the girl's parents kneeled down on the floor of their bedroom and placed their heads on the bed, crying. He did not notice any comments or expression from them, just crying. He says that at the main reception the father also knelt down, placing his head on the floor and crying. He did not hear the father say anything.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOSE_ROQUE.htm

Would it be possible for you to relate what you have posted to events in Kate's book?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 28, 2019, 10:16:48 AM
My original post made it clear it was my opinion.

Therefore there was no need to request a cite, nor point out that my post was my opinion.
I didn't request a cite.. I merely asked if you had one
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 28, 2019, 10:18:56 AM
Who said they were praying? Not Sylvia Batista, who first coined the phrase;

Then Gerry kneeled down, hit the floor with both hands, positioning himself as if he were a praying Arab, and screamed twice of anger, what he said being impossible to understand.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/SILVIA_BATISTA.htm

Not Nelson da Costa;

He found it notable that when they were still at the main reception, the father kneeled down, laying his head on the ground and crying, at the same time as making an expression which the witness did not understand.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/NELSON-DA-COSTA.htm

Not his colleague either;

After the search, he noticed a situation that seemed unusual to him, when at a determined moment, the girl's parents kneeled down on the floor of their bedroom and placed their heads on the bed, crying. He did not notice any comments or expression from them, just crying. He says that at the main reception the father also knelt down, placing his head on the floor and crying. He did not hear the father say anything.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOSE_ROQUE.htm

What I see there is the reaction of a totally distraught parent  which imo reinforces their non involvement
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Erngath on October 28, 2019, 10:22:26 AM
Faith = strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof.

Which particular words are you referring to?

I don't see any evidence that Catholicism played a significant part in KM's life pre or post MM's disappearance.  Afaik the Catholic church opposes IVF.  By her own admission it is something she uses in times of trouble like I might use a brisk walk in the countryside and a glass of very strong Belgium beer!

That is exactly what most Catholics do, turn to their faith and prayer in times of trouble.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Erngath on October 28, 2019, 10:23:34 AM
What I see there is the reaction of a totally distraught parent  which imo reinforces their non involvement

Of course it is.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: ShiningInLuz on October 28, 2019, 10:31:10 AM
I didn't request a cite.. I merely asked if you had one

This level of pedantry is disrupting a fairly interesting debate.

Time to move on.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 28, 2019, 10:33:23 AM
This level of pedantry is disrupting a fairly interesting debate.

Time to move on.

Are you accusing me of being pedantic... That is personal abuse...
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 28, 2019, 10:33:29 AM
That is exactly what most Catholics do, turn to their faith and prayer in times of trouble.

What do they do in the good times? 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: The General on October 28, 2019, 10:38:11 AM
What do they do in the good times?
I assume they give thanks to their god for bequeathing temporary benevolence.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 28, 2019, 10:38:43 AM
By all the supporting docs I think you will find are written in Portuguese by the translators.  We know from kates book that when she questioned a translator the translator became quite angry.  Without something direct from Gerry just we don't know

KM makes no ref to any initial translation problems with regard to GM and the front door/unsecured patio doors.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: The General on October 28, 2019, 10:39:43 AM
Are you accusing me of being pedantic... That is personal abuse...
It could now be perceived that you're being pedantic about being accused of being pedantic.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 28, 2019, 10:40:05 AM
Faith = strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof.

Which particular words are you referring to?

I don't see any evidence that Catholicism played a significant part in KM's life pre or post MM's disappearance.  Afaik the Catholic church opposes IVF.  By her own admission it is something she uses in times of trouble like I might use a brisk walk in the countryside and a glass of very strong Belgium beer!
As in page #272 "God let them be wrong"  they are the words in this example, but faith is the belief that that will now happen.

"“Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.” Simply put, the biblical definition of faith is “trusting in something you cannot explicitly prove.”" https://www.gotquestions.org/definition-of-faith.html
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 28, 2019, 10:42:49 AM
I assume they give thanks to their god for bequeathing temporary benevolence.

But KM makes no reference to doing this pre or post MM's disappearance.  It seems to me it is all about using her God in times of trouble which range from conceiving MM in the first instance to finding her thereafter.

Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Erngath on October 28, 2019, 10:43:54 AM
What do they do in the good times?

Possibly pray a little less.
I'm reminded of an article I read recently about Bruce Springsteen and his Catholic faith.
There was a quote from him which is very true.
However I Will have to find it again.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 28, 2019, 10:45:36 AM
But KM makes no reference to doing this pre or post MM's disappearance.  It seems to me it is all about using her God in times of trouble which range from conceiving MM in the first instance to finding her thereafter.
It might read like that but the test is to maintain faith while doing that.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 28, 2019, 10:52:05 AM
KM makes no ref to any initial translation problems with regard to GM and the front door/unsecured patio doors.

Km makes reference in her book to lots of errors in the translations
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: The General on October 28, 2019, 10:53:09 AM
But KM makes no reference to doing this pre or post MM's disappearance.  It seems to me it is all about using her God in times of trouble which range from conceiving MM in the first instance to finding her thereafter.
There's a whiff of Pascal's Wager in this - the belated pleading or renewed faith in the face of a crisis. Consider the plight of the agnostic hostage, pleading with god for their lives, almost as a final, desperate (and ultimately futile) gambit.

Are the 'religious', when not facing a crisis, giving thanks for general benevolence or mercy from malevolence?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 28, 2019, 11:05:23 AM
There's a whiff of Pascal's Wager in this - the belated pleading or renewed faith in the face of a crisis. Consider the plight of the agnostic hostage, pleading with god for their lives, almost as a final, desperate (and ultimately futile) gambit.

Are the 'religious', when not facing a crisis, giving thanks for general benevolence or mercy from malevolence?

It's obvious to me that at times of crisis... Some turn to god..
It's quite natural. 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 28, 2019, 11:13:56 AM
It might read like that but the test is to maintain faith while doing that.

So what's in it for God if he only has to listen to peoples' troubles? 

Pre MM's disappearance KM does not refer to religion playing any part in her life other than the normal childhood stuff eg attending Catholic schools, mass on Sundays and going along with what she was told by those around her.  Thereafter she refers to her friend Father Paul Seddon marrying her and baptizing MM.

KM moved away from Liverpool during the 80's when she started her medi degree at Dundee uni.  Upon graduating she then lived in Glasgow, New Zealand and Holland before settling in Leicester but she doesn't mention seeking out churches in these places. 

She does say at times church took a back seat and adds it was always there in the background a source of comfort, refuge and support.  It seems to me its all take and no give in this relationship with God?

 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 28, 2019, 11:18:10 AM
As in page #272 "God let them be wrong"  they are the words in this example, but faith is the belief that that will now happen.

"“Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.” Simply put, the biblical definition of faith is “trusting in something you cannot explicitly prove.”" https://www.gotquestions.org/definition-of-faith.html

I don't think KM's quote is meant literally eg page 20..."God knows where that come from..." re some childhood idea of wanting to be a haematologist.

Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 28, 2019, 11:19:44 AM
Km makes reference in her book to lots of errors in the translations

Do you have a cite?  And specifically a cite for the point under discussion?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Brietta on October 28, 2019, 11:21:22 AM
Possibly pray a little less.
I'm reminded of an article I read recently about Bruce Springsteen and his Catholic faith.
There was a quote from him which is very true.
However I Will have to find it again.
Off Topic so I will be in trouble ... don't know that one if it is recent, but I know of at least one quote from his music which I will not repeat here because I think it blasphemous but I have always known that much of his career reflects his faith in very many ways.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 28, 2019, 11:28:49 AM
I don't think KM's quote is meant literally eg page 20..."God knows where that come from..." re some childhood idea of wanting to be a haematologist.
"God knows"  is an expression.  Maybe similar to "who knows".
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: G-Unit on October 28, 2019, 11:30:07 AM
That is exactly what most Catholics do, turn to their faith and prayer in times of trouble.

Like a spiritual insurance policy?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Brietta on October 28, 2019, 11:31:36 AM
Do you have a cite?  And specifically a cite for the point under discussion?

It was obvious that at every stage of the process the scope for mistakes in translation and misunderstandings
was considerable.
_________________________________________
We were concerned that parts of the statements we had made to the Portuguese police, especially on that first day, might have been lost in translation. We also felt that these accounts were not sufficiently thorough and wanted to have every detail we could remember registered properly.
Unfortunately, in our haste to pass the newstatements on to the PJ, we made the mistake of assuming that the transcripts would be correct and discovered only many months later that these, too, contained inaccuracies
_________________________________________


Just two to be going on with, there are plenty more ... for example Davel has already identified the hassle Kate had from a translator on one occasion.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Erngath on October 28, 2019, 11:33:27 AM
Like a spiritual insurance policy?


That may be your interpretation and opnion of why people pray and turn to their faith.
It's not an opinion I share.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 28, 2019, 11:34:51 AM
So what's in it for God if he only has to listen to peoples' troubles? 

Pre MM's disappearance KM does not refer to religion playing any part in her life other than the normal childhood stuff eg attending Catholic schools, mass on Sundays and going along with what she was told by those around her.  Thereafter she refers to her friend Father Paul Seddon marrying her and baptizing MM.

KM moved away from Liverpool during the 80's when she started her medi degree at Dundee uni.  Upon graduating she then lived in Glasgow, New Zealand and Holland before settling in Leicester but she doesn't mention seeking out churches in these places. 

She does say at times church took a back seat and adds it was always there in the background a source of comfort, refuge and support.  It seems to me its all take and no give in this relationship with God?

 
I see your point, but to me, a relationship with God has nothing to do with going to church.  It is more subtle than that.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Brietta on October 28, 2019, 11:40:25 AM
Like a spiritual insurance policy?

I don't think you fully appreciate how most Catholics view their faith which is the mainstay of how one lives daily life while bearing in mind the presence of God in all of it.
Absolutely not an easy thing to accomplish but with daily practice becomes second nature.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 28, 2019, 11:45:05 AM
Do you have a cite?  And specifically a cite for the point under discussion?

I've provided the cite many times... Kate.. In her book... Says because of the errors they made new statements to Control Risks Group... Which were passed on to the PJ
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 28, 2019, 11:48:19 AM
I see your point, but to me, a relationship with God has nothing to do with going to church.  It is more subtle than that.

Ok fair enough but what exactly does anyone get out of the sort of relationship KM has with God other than as she said it provides her with a source of comfort, refuge and support. 

I like to think if I get something out of a relationship I put back at least some token gesture.

Imagine having a group of friends who only called upon you to provide a source of comfort, refuge and support.  I might well consider them users and dump them. 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 28, 2019, 11:49:19 AM
Ok fair enough but what exactly does anyone get out of the sort of relationship KM has with God other than as she said it provides her with a source of comfort, refuge and support. 

I like to think if I get something out of a relationship I put back at least some token gesture.

Imagine having a group of friends who only called upon you to provide a source of comfort, refuge and support.  I might well consider them users and dump them.

Google the prodigal son
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 28, 2019, 11:51:02 AM
It was obvious that at every stage of the process the scope for mistakes in translation and misunderstandings
was considerable.
_________________________________________
We were concerned that parts of the statements we had made to the Portuguese police, especially on that first day, might have been lost in translation. We also felt that these accounts were not sufficiently thorough and wanted to have every detail we could remember registered properly.
Unfortunately, in our haste to pass the newstatements on to the PJ, we made the mistake of assuming that the transcripts would be correct and discovered only many months later that these, too, contained inaccuracies
_________________________________________


Just two to be going on with, there are plenty more ... for example Davel has already identified the hassle Kate had from a translator on one occasion.

That maybe so but there's nothing specifically from KM, or GM, anywhere to the effect that translators were responsible for misinterpreting GM's initial claim that he was using the front door to check on the children and not the patio doors. 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 28, 2019, 11:52:03 AM
I see your point, but to me, a relationship with God has nothing to do with going to church.  It is more subtle than that.

Not every religion believes in god... There is certainly one aetheistic religion
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 28, 2019, 11:54:36 AM
I've provided the cite many times... Kate.. In her book... Says because of the errors they made new statements to Control Risks Group... Which were passed on to the PJ

Please quote a page number from KM's PB re translators responsible for misunderstanding GM's initial claim of checking the children via the secured front door when in fact what he really mean was the unsecured patio doors. 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 28, 2019, 12:02:44 PM
Please quote a page number from KM's PB re translators responsible for misunderstanding GM's initial claim of checking the children via the secured front door when in fact what he really mean was the unsecured patio doors.

Could you point out where I've made that claim.. I don't need to provide a cite fir something I haven't said
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 28, 2019, 12:05:06 PM
Could you point out where I've made that claim.. I don't need to provide a cite fir something I haven't said

Great.  We agree. 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 28, 2019, 12:07:23 PM
Great.  We agree.
Agree on what... It's quite possible that there, was, an error in translation as Kate refers to many errors in translation in her book... So we agree on that
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: G-Unit on October 28, 2019, 12:10:40 PM
I don't think you fully appreciate how most Catholics view their faith which is the mainstay of how one lives daily life while bearing in mind the presence of God in all of it.
Absolutely not an easy thing to accomplish but with daily practice becomes second nature.

How do you know how 'most Catholics' view their faith?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 28, 2019, 12:23:28 PM
Agree on what... It's quite possible that there, was, an error in translation as Kate refers to many errors in translation in her book... So we agree on that

Police investigators consider egress and ingress very important aspects of criminal investigations where the soc involves the perp(s) entering a property to commit a crime he/she had no right to be in. 

Do you have any specific evidence from GM or KM that translators were responsible for misinterpreting GM's claims whereby he initially stated he checked on the children via the secured front door and not the unsecured patio doors as KM always claimed and GM also claimed at a later date?  What evidence, if any, exists to show that this misunderstanding was down to translators? 

 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 28, 2019, 12:34:11 PM
Police investigators consider egress and ingress very important aspects of criminal investigations where the soc involves the perp(s) entering a property to commit a crime he/she had no right to be in. 

Do you have any specific evidence from GM or KM that translators were responsible for misinterpreting GM's claims whereby he initially stated he checked on the children via the secured front door and not the unsecured patio doors as KM always claimed and GM also claimed at a later date?  What evidence, if any, exists to show that this misunderstanding was down to translators? 

 

The evidence is that there were mistakes in the translations due to the manner in which they were taken.
It is therefore possible that the mistake was not gerrys but the translators

We have absolutely no way of knowing
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 28, 2019, 12:42:42 PM
The evidence is that there were mistakes in the translations due to the manner in which they were taken.
It is therefore possible that the mistake was not gerrys but the translators

We have absolutely no way of knowing

The same translators did not seem to misunderstand/misinterpret KM's in this regard.

And if the problem was down to translation why wouldn't KM/GM highlight this crucial aspect of translation which sent GNR/PJ down a false trail.   
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Brietta on October 28, 2019, 12:50:00 PM
How do you know how 'most Catholics' view their faith?

I know enough to know there is no such thing as a "spiritual insurance policy" as you have posted.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 28, 2019, 12:52:59 PM
The same translators did not seem to misunderstand/misinterpret KM's in this regard.

And if the problem was down to translation why wouldn't KM/GM highlight this crucial aspect of translation which sent GNR/PJ down a false trail.
You can speculate as much as you like... It simply cannot be shown wIth any degree of certainty that it was not a translation error
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: John on October 28, 2019, 12:58:13 PM
You can speculate as much as you like... It simply cannot be shown wIth any degree of certainty that it was not a translation error

But it can, it is clearly indicated in GM's statements in words which cannot possibly be a translation error. There is only one door that can be locked and unlocked from the outside and that is the front door leading to the car park. Similarly, there is only one sliding door into the lounge and that is the rear patio door.


G McCann Police Statement 11.15am on 4th May 2007

"As usual, every half hour and as the restaurant was near, the witness or his wife, would check whether the children were all right. In this way, at about 21.05 the witness came to the Club, entered the room using his respective key, the door being locked, went to his children's bedroom and checked that the twins were fine, as was Madeleine. "He then went to the WC" where he remained for a few moments, left..."

https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN.htm


G McCann Police Statement  3.20pm on 10th May 2007

"Despite what he said in his previous statements, he states now and with certainty, that he left with KATE by the rear door which he consequently closed but did not lock given that that is only possible from the inside. Referring to the front door, while he is certain that it was closed it is unlikely that it was locked as [because] they had left by the rear door."

"At 21H05 MATHEW returned, the time at which the deponent left the table to go to check how his children were.

----- He followed the normal route up to the rear door, which being open he only had to move [slide] it, that being the way in which he entered [was entering] the lounge..."

https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P4/04_VOLUME_IVa_Page_891.jpg



Somehow I don't think one can blame an interpreter/translator for those words.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 28, 2019, 01:01:48 PM
It is clearly indicated in GM's statements...


G McCann Police Statement 11.15am on 4th May 2007

"As usual, every half hour and as the restaurant was near, the witness or his wife, would check whether the children were all right. In this way, at about 21.05 the witness came to the Club, entered the room using his respective key, the door being locked, went to his children's bedroom and checked that the twins were fine, as was Madeleine. "He then went to the WC" where he remained for a few moments, left..."

https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN.htm


G McCann Police Statement  3.20pm on 10th May 2007

"Despite what he said in his previous statements, he states now and with certainty, that he left with KATE by the rear door which he consequently closed but did not lock given that that is only possible from the inside. Referring to the front door, while he is certain that it was closed it is unlikely that it was locked as [because] they had left by the rear door."

"At 21H05 MATHEW returned, the time at which the deponent left the table to go to check how his children were.

----- He followed the normal route up to the rear door, which being open he only had to move [slide] it, that being the way in which he entered [was entering] the lounge..."

https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P4/04_VOLUME_IVa_Page_891.jpg



Somehow I don't think one can blame a translator for those words.

The translator may be putting the blame on Gerry to avoid criticism of himself... Without transcript s in English we simply cannot be sure
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 28, 2019, 01:02:55 PM
It is clearly indicated in GM's statements...


G McCann Police Statement 11.15am on 4th May 2007

"As usual, every half hour and as the restaurant was near, the witness or his wife, would check whether the children were all right. In this way, at about 21.05 the witness came to the Club, entered the room using his respective key, the door being locked, went to his children's bedroom and checked that the twins were fine, as was Madeleine. "He then went to the WC" where he remained for a few moments, left..."

https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN.htm


G McCann Police Statement  3.20pm on 10th May 2007

"Despite what he said in his previous statements, he states now and with certainty, that he left with KATE by the rear door which he consequently closed but did not lock given that that is only possible from the inside. Referring to the front door, while he is certain that it was closed it is unlikely that it was locked as [because] they had left by the rear door."

"At 21H05 MATHEW returned, the time at which the deponent left the table to go to check how his children were.

----- He followed the normal route up to the rear door, which being open he only had to move [slide] it, that being the way in which he entered [was entering] the lounge..."

https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P4/04_VOLUME_IVa_Page_891.jpg



Somehow I don't think one can blame an interpreter/translator for those words.

Thanks John.  So I think its safe to say GM was in error not the interpreter/translator. 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 28, 2019, 01:06:58 PM
Thanks John.  So I think its safe to say GM was in error not the interpreter/translator.

You can say what you like but you cannot show beyond doubt it is true
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: John on October 28, 2019, 01:07:36 PM
Thanks John.  So I think its safe to say GM was in error not the interpreter/translator.

Just as he was in error when he claimed where he met Jez.  Simple basic errors which poses the question as to what other details were recalled incorrectly and more importantly, why?

I know exactly why he claimed to have used the locked front door but when it was established that the key to the door had been left in the apartment then a change of strategy was required.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 28, 2019, 01:11:04 PM
Just as he was in error when he claimed where he met Jez.  Simple basic errors which poses the question as to what other details were recalled incorrectly and more importantly, why?

Sceptics lay great importance on what they see as errors yet the PJ say there is no evidence against them.. And I think it's crystal clear the parents are not involved
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: John on October 28, 2019, 01:14:07 PM
Sceptics lay great importance on what they see as errors yet the PJ say there is no evidence against them.. And I think it's crystal clear the parents are not involved

I agree to the extent that I personally don't go with 'the parents dun it' theory but they were involved in as much as they were responsible for the child and failed her.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 28, 2019, 01:18:57 PM
You can say what you like but you cannot show beyond doubt it is true

It begs the question if it isn't true why the McCanns didn't sing it from the roof tops?   It caused the GNR officers to go down the woke and wandered route since they were led to believe 5A was secured from within and it showed no signs of forced entry. 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 28, 2019, 01:21:59 PM
It begs the question if it isn't true why the McCanns didn't sing it from the roof tops?   It caused the GNR officers to go down the woke and wandered route since they were led to believe 5A was secured from within and it showed no signs of forced entry.

The mccanns reported an open window and an open patio door.  It would be normal to consider woke and wandered as a possibility .
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 28, 2019, 01:22:53 PM
I agree to the extent that I personally don't go with 'the parents dun it' theory but they were involved in as much as they were responsible for the child and failed her.

That's a valid criticism...
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 28, 2019, 01:37:30 PM
Just as he was in error when he claimed where he met Jez.  Simple basic errors which poses the question as to what other details were recalled incorrectly and more importantly, why?

I know exactly why he claimed to have used the locked front door but when it was established that the key to the door had been left in the apartment then a change of strategy was required.

And claiming when he carried out his circa 9 pm check that the children's bedroom door was open further than he left it which at the time he said he put down to MM getting up and returning to her bed.  Yet KM claims on the basis that MM had asked morning of 3rd May where were they were the previous evening when she and Sean were crying that they had decided as a couple they needed to be "absolutely prompt" with their checks.  When GM returned to the table having thought MM might have been up and about why didn't he mention to KM?  And if he did mention why wouldn't KM or GM check at circa 9.30 pm instead of allowing MO to check who had no idea about the 'normal' position of the bedroom door.  None of it makes sense imo.   
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: G-Unit on October 28, 2019, 01:43:19 PM
I know enough to know there is no such thing as a "spiritual insurance policy" as you have posted.

You, I would suggest know only how you view your faith. I know there's no such thing as a spiritual insurance policy, but another person's post and Kate McCann's behaviour suggest that some less committed Catholics turn to God in times of trouble. It's something that isn't restricted to Catholics either.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 28, 2019, 01:47:10 PM
The mccanns reported an open window and an open patio door.  It would be normal to consider woke and wandered as a possibility .

GM initially reported an open window only.  He was first to meet the GNR officers along with OC employee Silvia Batista who acted as a translator. 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 28, 2019, 01:48:31 PM
GM initially reported an open window only.  He was first to meet the GNR officers along with OC employee Silvia Batista who acted as a translator.

So the open window suggested third party involvement and woke, and wandered
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Erngath on October 28, 2019, 01:50:41 PM
You, I would suggest know only how you view your faith. I know there's no such thing as a spiritual insurance policy, but another person's post and Kate McCann's behaviour suggest that some less committed Catholics turn to God in times of trouble. It's something that isn't restricted to Catholics either.

I do hope this " another person's post " is not a reference to my post.
If it is, then you have misunderstood my commitment to my Faith.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: ShiningInLuz on October 28, 2019, 01:54:42 PM
You can speculate as much as you like... It simply cannot be shown wIth any degree of certainty that it was not a translation error

It can be shown to be accurate and is.

The speculation on this point is not Holly's.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: G-Unit on October 28, 2019, 01:59:30 PM
The translator may be putting the blame on Gerry to avoid criticism of himself... Without transcript s in English we simply cannot be sure

Whatever excuses are offered the fact remains that;


"With all formal witness statements, the interview is read over and its contents explained. After having shown their agreement with their statements, the interviewee confirms and signs as accurate the content of the document that follows, conjointly with the "sworn" interpreter, where one is used. This is normal procedure in all formal interviews. In co-signing, the interpreter commits themself legally concerning the accuracy of their translation."

If the McCanns were not happy why didn't they complain instead of signing? Complaining four years after the event is too little too late imo.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 28, 2019, 01:59:50 PM
It can be shown to be accurate and is.

The speculation on this point is not Holly's.
that's your opinion and imo you are totally wrong

... Without the original to compare... Without asking Gerry it cannot be shown with certainty
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 28, 2019, 02:02:07 PM
Whatever excuses are offered the fact remains that;


"With all formal witness statements, the interview is read over and its contents explained. After having shown their agreement with their statements, the interviewee confirms and signs as accurate the content of the document that follows, conjointly with the "sworn" interpreter, where one is used. This is normal procedure in all formal interviews. In co-signing, the interpreter commits themself legally concerning the accuracy of their translation."

If the McCanns were not happy why didn't they complain instead of signing? Complaining four years after the event is too little too late imo.

I'm not offering excuses.. Please, refrain from insults
I'm offering alternative valid reasons..
Kate corrected the translator at the time and was metbwith anger... The statements to CR were not given 4 years, after so your post makes no sense
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 28, 2019, 02:02:33 PM
So the open window suggested third party involvement and woke, and wandered

No the window didn't suggest third party involvement since it showed no signs of being forced. 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 28, 2019, 02:03:55 PM
No the window didn't suggest third party involvement since it showed no signs of being forced.

I think that's rubbish... The window it seems could be opened without force
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: ShiningInLuz on October 28, 2019, 02:04:21 PM
Whatever excuses are offered the fact remains that;


"With all formal witness statements, the interview is read over and its contents explained. After having shown their agreement with their statements, the interviewee confirms and signs as accurate the content of the document that follows, conjointly with the "sworn" interpreter, where one is used. This is normal procedure in all formal interviews. In co-signing, the interpreter commits themself legally concerning the accuracy of their translation."

If the McCanns were not happy why didn't they complain instead of signing? Complaining four years after the event is too little too late imo.

As a matter of interest, have the alleged CRG statements ever surfaced?

Gerry made no mention of them in  his 10 May statement.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 28, 2019, 02:07:10 PM
I think that's rubbish... The window it seems could be opened without force

The fact you think something is rubbish doesn't make it factually rubbish.

We've been over this numerous times and the experts all agree the shutter and window could not be opened from outside without leaving some trace.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 28, 2019, 02:07:21 PM
As a matter of interest, have the alleged CRG statements ever surfaced?

Gerry made no mention of them in  his 10 May statement.
If you want to speculate they don't exist and Kate is lying that's up to you
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 28, 2019, 02:09:39 PM
The fact you think something is rubbish doesn't make it factually rubbish.

We've been over this numerous times and the experts all agree the shutter and window could not be opened from outside without leaving some trace.
That's why I said I think it's rubbish.. Which experts are you talking about.  .the three who didn't even go to 5a...
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 28, 2019, 02:12:37 PM
I personally think GM put his own ego and pride before the well-being of his daughter.  I think he felt ashamed and embarrassed about leaving his 3 small children alone in the unsecured apartment and embarked on a damage limitation programme by trying to play down the unsecured patio door.  Hence no reference to it in the 4th May stat.   
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 28, 2019, 02:14:01 PM
That's why I said I think it's rubbish.. Which experts are you talking about.  .the three who didn't even go to 5a...

Who would you like us to rely upon on this regard? 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: ShiningInLuz on October 28, 2019, 02:16:16 PM
If you want to speculate they don't exist and Kate is lying that's up to you

I'd be delighted to see the alleged CRG statements.  If they exist they would be most informative.   &^^&*
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 28, 2019, 02:21:45 PM
Who would you like us to rely upon on this regard?

The shutters could be opened from the outside... Why would any marks be left if glives were being worn
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 28, 2019, 02:22:30 PM
I'd be delighted to see the alleged CRG statements.  If they exist they would be most informative.   &^^&*

So they exist or Kate is lying... Take your pick
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: jassi on October 28, 2019, 02:25:28 PM
I personally think GM put his own ego and pride before the well-being of his daughter.  I think he felt ashamed and embarrassed about leaving his 3 small children alone in the unsecured apartment and embarked on a damage limitation programme by trying to play down the unsecured patio door.  Hence no reference to it in the 4th May stat.


I don't think Gerry does ashamed or embarrassed - ever
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 28, 2019, 02:36:30 PM
The shutters could be opened from the outside... Why would any marks be left if glives were being worn

Cite please for shutters and windows at 5A opening from outside.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 28, 2019, 02:44:37 PM
Cite please for shutters and windows at 5A opening from outside.
There's a video with petermac showing it... Heriberto on this forum has confirmed it


https://youtu.be/IeuMzyaCnnY
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: ShiningInLuz on October 28, 2019, 02:47:49 PM
So they exist or Kate is lying... Take your pick

I'm happy to let my statements on this stand as is, without further explanation.

Is it raining here if I were to say it is?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 28, 2019, 02:50:00 PM

I don't think Gerry does ashamed or embarrassed - ever

I think his body language in the reconstruction doc certainly suggests he is made to feel uncomfortable at times.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 28, 2019, 02:52:13 PM
I think his body language in the reconstruction doc certainly suggests he is made to feel uncomfortable at times.

Of course he's uncomfortable... He's talking about his daughters disappearance
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 28, 2019, 02:53:50 PM
There's a video with petermac showing it... Heriberto on this forum has confirmed it

Are you able to link me to them? 

If we assume shutters and windows can be opened from outside what is the point of having them?  Just to keep out the elements by way of weather?  What about other properties in Portugal are they too lacking in basic home security?  I wonder if property owners are able to purchase insurance for their buildings and contents?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 28, 2019, 02:54:51 PM
Of course he's uncomfortable... He's talking about his daughters disappearance

But why the need to start scratching his nose and back of his neck? 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 28, 2019, 02:56:50 PM
There's a video with petermac showing it... Heriberto on this forum has confirmed it


https://youtu.be/IeuMzyaCnnY

Seems to show the shutter can't remain raised from outside.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 28, 2019, 03:11:57 PM
Seems to show the shutter can't remain raised from outside.

Simply open window and pull on strap... They then stay open
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 28, 2019, 03:16:15 PM
But why the need to start scratching his nose and back of his neck?

Ser post 462
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 28, 2019, 03:17:54 PM
Are you able to link me to them? 

If we assume shutters and windows can be opened from outside what is the point of having them?  Just to keep out the elements by way of weather?  What about other properties in Portugal are they too lacking in basic home security?  I wonder if property owners are able to purchase insurance for their buildings and contents?

It seems Gerry thought they were security shutters when they are more like shutters simply to keep out the sun
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 28, 2019, 03:43:06 PM
Ser post 462

Ok but I would prefer to hear the views of those who study kinesics such as anthropologists. 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 28, 2019, 03:47:33 PM
It seems Gerry thought they were security shutters when they are more like shutters simply to keep out the sun

And what about the window?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 28, 2019, 03:54:22 PM
KM refers to GM having 4 siblings: Jackie, Johnny, Philomena and Trisha.  Post MM's disappearance I can only find references in KM's PB to to the latter?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 28, 2019, 04:03:08 PM
And what about the window?

This has been discussed at length and it's quite possible the wundiw was closed but not locked due to the cleaners
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 28, 2019, 04:04:51 PM
Ok but I would prefer to hear the views of those who study kinesics such as anthropologists.
As far as I am aware there's no scientific basis to support the accuracy of body language
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Anthro on October 28, 2019, 04:19:39 PM
Hi Holly, you get 3 types of kinesics regarding gestures: adaptors, emblems, illustrators. Adaptors would be the one you’re looking at:

Adaptors: touching behaviors and movements that indicate internal states typically related to arousal or anxiety. Adaptors can be targeted toward the self, objects, or others. In regular social situations, adaptors result from uneasiness, anxiety, or a general sense that we are not in control of our surroundings. Many of us subconsciously click pens, shake our legs, or engage in other adaptors during classes, meetings, or while waiting as a way to do something with our excess energy. Public speaking students who watch video recordings of their speeches notice nonverbal adaptors that they didn’t know they used. In public speaking situations, people most commonly use self- or object-focused adaptors. Common self-touching behaviors like scratching, twirling hair, or fidgeting with fingers or hands are considered self-adaptors. Some self-adaptors manifest internally, as coughs or throat-clearing sounds (a second-year cultural anthropology study guide).
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 28, 2019, 04:27:04 PM
Hi Holly, you get 3 types of kinesics regarding gestures: adaptors, emblems, illustrators. Adaptors would be the one you’re looking at:

Adaptors: touching behaviors and movements that indicate internal states typically related to arousal or anxiety. Adaptors can be targeted toward the self, objects, or others. In regular social situations, adaptors result from uneasiness, anxiety, or a general sense that we are not in control of our surroundings. Many of us subconsciously click pens, shake our legs, or engage in other adaptors during classes, meetings, or while waiting as a way to do something with our excess energy. Public speaking students who watch video recordings of their speeches notice nonverbal adaptors that they didn’t know they used. In public speaking situations, people most commonly use self- or object-focused adaptors. Common self-touching behaviors like scratching, twirling hair, or fidgeting with fingers or hands are considered self-adaptors. Some self-adaptors manifest internally, as coughs or throat-clearing sounds (a second-year cultural anthropology study guide).

Adapters may well indicate someone is uncomfortable or uneasy but does not tell us why they are uncomfortable..
Gerry could well be uncomfortable because as a consultant he is used to being in control
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 28, 2019, 04:36:14 PM
This has been discussed at length and it's quite possible the wundiw was closed but not locked due to the cleaners

But we know there's no evidence anyone entered or exited via the window.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 28, 2019, 04:39:50 PM
But we know there's no evidence anyone entered or exited via the window.
We don't have evidence... That doesn't mean it didn't happen theres no evidence of your abductor in the apartment... But you are certain there was one
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 28, 2019, 04:40:35 PM
Adapters may well indicate someone is uncomfortable or uneasy but does not tell us why they are uncomfortable..
Gerry could well be uncomfortable because as a consultant he is used to being in control

Someone experienced in such could no doubt given an informed opinion.

The fact GM is a medi consultant and has a lot of autonomy doesn't mean he is always in control.     
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 28, 2019, 04:43:17 PM
Someone experienced in such could no doubt given an informed opinion.

The fact GM is a medi consultant and has a lot of autonomy doesn't mean he is always in control.   
Gerry would feel uncomfortable being asked questions.... That's all an expert... Or non expert could tell.  He couldn't tell why gerry felt uncomfortable
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 28, 2019, 04:45:27 PM
We don't have evidence... That doesn't mean it didn't happen theres no evidence of your abductor in the apartment... But you are certain there was one

If someone entered or exited via the window there's a greater chance of leaving forensic evidence behind than if someone entered/exited via the doors.  Doors are designed to enter and exit from windows aren't.

Dave Barclay said in his opinion he thinks it impossible for someone to have entered/exited via the window without leaving any tell-tale evidence behind.

Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Anthro on October 28, 2019, 04:45:57 PM
Hi Davel, I agree with you. A behavioural anthropologist will be able to analyse and evaluate such behaviour.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 28, 2019, 04:46:43 PM
Gerry would feel uncomfortable being asked questions.... That's all an expert... Or non expert could tell.  He couldn't tell why gerry felt uncomfortable

We will have to agree to disagree.  Anthropologists and such like are experts in these matters.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 28, 2019, 04:47:39 PM
If someone entered or exited via the window there's a greater chance of leaving forensic evidence behind than if someone entered/exited via the doors.  Doors are designed to enter and exit from windows aren't.

Dave Barclay said in his opinion he thinks it impossible for someone to have entered/exited via the window without leaving any tell-tale evidence behind.

It depends how good the forensic exam was to detect any evidence...
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Anthro on October 28, 2019, 04:49:25 PM
A behavioural anthropologist would be able to interpret behaviour because the context within in which the behaviour occurs, would form an integral and important part in the analysis thereof.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 28, 2019, 04:55:13 PM
We will have to agree to disagree.  Anthropologists and such like are experts in these matters.
I think you put too much belief in the interpretation of non verbal communication.... It could tell Gerry was uncomfortable but notbthe reason why.  When you can show us an experts opinion on gerrys body language your opinion we won't know who  is right.. I'm convinced I am

Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 28, 2019, 04:59:08 PM
A behavioural anthropologist would be able to interpret behaviour because the context within in which the behaviour occurs, would form an integral and important part in the analysis thereof.

If I was interviewed on TV... No doubt I would display some adapters... This would not mean I'm lying... It would be just normal nerves
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 28, 2019, 05:07:11 PM
The PB hasn't been well received by all as per ratings and comments on Amazon and in fact overall ratings have been less favorable than other PB's in the same genre:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Madeleine-daughters-disappearance-continuing-search/dp/0552165158

KM isn't the only person to have suffered some ghastly trauma.
You are obviously unaware of the concerted online attack on Kate’s book from Day 1 by McCann sceptics, many of whom had neither bought the book nor even read it before doling out the one star reviews.  Utterly pathetic behaviour but totally anticipated and par for the course.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 28, 2019, 05:12:50 PM
Whatever you think abusing other members is not the answer.

You certainly have a talent for misrepresentation. I neither cried nor begged, I strongly objected to your abuse and told you to stop.
I did not abuse you.  To abuse you I would have said something like “shove it up your arse you ugly cow” or “you’re just like Stalin”.  I merely gave my opinion on your online postings, which admittedly were fairly critical.  IMO you seemed very upset by the posts and demanded I stop.  Just as you can read a book written by the mother of a missing child and come to an opinion  about her that does not concur with mine, I can do the same about you and your posts, can I not?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 28, 2019, 05:14:22 PM
For me, it remains as image management.

It is akin to picking up Antony and Cleopatra, only to find they are not the principal characters.

That split still appears to permeate this forum.  Is Madeleine the main focus?

Hand on heart I would have to say that for many here it appears not.
Hw would you have written the book to make Madeleine the main focus?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 28, 2019, 05:18:48 PM
Probably alcohol related imo.  People often do strange things when they've had a few.
What an appallingly insensitive comment. 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 28, 2019, 05:23:56 PM
Could a mod here please explain why I get points for “abuse” but this little madam is allowed to accuse me of being like one of the world’s worst mass murderers ever without any sanctions at all, and the post is allowed to remain?  Obviously the comparison is laughable so I don’t object to it, but what I do object to is the un evenhanded approach on this forum to doling out points.  I look forward to further explanation.
And reply came there none.  Quelle surprise.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: ShiningInLuz on October 28, 2019, 05:25:17 PM
Hw would you have written the book to make Madeleine the main focus?

I'd probably get pilloried by supporters for trying to make a few bob out of MBM.

It's an interesting proposition though.

Now I've got a theme, what about a title?

'madeleine' has already been used.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 28, 2019, 05:26:18 PM

I don't think Gerry does ashamed or embarrassed - ever
Do you know him well?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 28, 2019, 05:29:05 PM
I'd probably get pilloried by supporters for trying to make a few bob out of MBM.

It's an interesting proposition though.

Now I've got a theme, what about a title?

'madeleine' has already been used.
I think you’ve misunderstood.  Let’s try again.  If you had been Kate McCann how would you have made Madeleiene the main focus of the book?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: ShiningInLuz on October 28, 2019, 05:41:28 PM
I think you’ve misunderstood.  Let’s try again.  If you had been Kate McCann how would you have made Madeleiene the main focus of the book?

As I'm not, that is a sterile question.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 28, 2019, 05:54:13 PM
I think you’ve misunderstood.  Let’s try again.  If you had been Kate McCann how would you have made Madeleiene the main focus of the book?

The book was written to raise funds... As it did as a best seller.... So the focus always was and is Madeleine
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 28, 2019, 06:14:54 PM
As I'm not, that is a sterile question.
You criticse Kate for not making Madeleine the focus, so I’m wondering what you had hoped to read in the book about Madeleine that wasn’t there?  Perhaps that is a less sterile question.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: ShiningInLuz on October 28, 2019, 06:29:23 PM
You criticse Kate for not making Madeleine the focus, so I’m wondering what you had hope to read in the book about Madeleine that wasn’t there?  Perhaps that is a less sterile question.

I have explained that I read the book without context.

At the end of that reading, I concluded that though 'madeleine' was the title, she did not appear to be a principal character.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 28, 2019, 06:31:50 PM
I'd probably get pilloried by supporters for trying to make a few bob out of MBM.

It's an interesting proposition though.

Now I've got a theme, what about a title?

'madeleine' has already been used.

You may have those things but I would say what you don't have is a market.... And that's a rather important commodity.

I think there, are several of us here who could write a book... I just don't think there is a market for one
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 28, 2019, 06:39:46 PM
I have explained that I read the book without context.

At the end of that reading, I concluded that though 'madeleine' was the title, she did not appear to be a principal character.

The book was a best seller...I think that Kate did a great job.
Pretty well everything in the book related to madeleine and her disappearance so she had to be the main focus of the book

Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 28, 2019, 06:46:06 PM
I have explained that I read the book without context.

At the end of that reading, I concluded that though 'madeleine' was the title, she did not appear to be a principal character.
As the book was written about and completely driven be events that happened post her disappearance perhaps you could explain how she could have been the principal character.  I have absolutely no doubt that you cannot but I thought I’d ask anyway, just to be polite like.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 28, 2019, 06:48:55 PM
You may have those things but I would say what you don't have is a market.... And that's a rather important commodity.

I think there, are several of us here who could write a book... I just don't think there is a market for one
I think a book about the post disappearance online hate campaign, focusing on some of the principal characters, plus an examination of the propaganda methods used and the psychology behind it would be a most valuable and interesting study.  Now, where did I put that dossier...
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: ShiningInLuz on October 28, 2019, 06:53:45 PM
As the book was written about and completely driven be events that happened post her disappearance perhaps you could explain how she could have been the principal character.  I have absolutely no doubt that you cannot but I thought I’d ask anyway, just to be polite like.

Whereas, I have no idea as to why you are repeating the same question over and over, like.

I've answered.  Time to move on.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 28, 2019, 06:55:42 PM
Ok fair enough but what exactly does anyone get out of the sort of relationship KM has with God other than as she said it provides her with a source of comfort, refuge and support. 

I like to think if I get something out of a relationship I put back at least some token gesture.

Imagine having a group of friends who only called upon you to provide a source of comfort, refuge and support.  I might well consider them users and dump them.

It is what Kate is willing to do for others too. I don't know them that well but there is  one detailed promise and that was that the find Madeleine fund would be used to help other missing children once Madeleine was found.

She writes a book it earns millions and she is willing to be charitable with the proceeds.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 28, 2019, 06:59:23 PM
Not every religion believes in god... There is certainly one atheistic religion

Fair enough.  But in Kate's book it is her type of religion put on the line.


Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 28, 2019, 07:01:52 PM
Fair enough.  But in Kate's book it her type of religion put on the line.

I think religion is, a very personal thing.. I might criticise some religions but you can't criticise a persons right ir opinion to follow a religion
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 28, 2019, 07:06:50 PM
Thanks John.  So I think its safe to say GM was in error not the interpreter/translator.
As long as Gerry had the key he can enter the front and leave via the unlocked patio door.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 28, 2019, 07:09:36 PM
Just as he was in error when he claimed where he met Jez.  Simple basic errors which poses the question as to what other details were recalled incorrectly and more importantly, why?

I know exactly why he claimed to have used the locked front door but when it was established that the key to the door had been left in the apartment then a change of strategy was required.
Who claimed the key was left in the apartment.  You would have to work out when it was left there.  The photographer wasn't on the scene until around 2:00 AM the next day.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 28, 2019, 07:29:33 PM
I think you put too much belief in the interpretation of non verbal communication.... It could tell Gerry was uncomfortable but notbthe reason why.  When you can show us an experts opinion on gerrys body language your opinion we won't know who  is right.. I'm convinced I am

We know they found it difficult to fess up to the fact they left the children in the unsecured apartment as KM tells us as much in her PB.  Plus it is widely agreed that in the immediate aftermath KM kept repeating over and over "We've let her down, we've let her down".
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 28, 2019, 07:31:54 PM
I have explained that I read the book without context.

At the end of that reading, I concluded that though 'madeleine' was the title, she did not appear to be a principal character.
It is how she disappeared and the search for her that is the title of the book.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 28, 2019, 07:35:36 PM
You are obviously unaware of the concerted online attack on Kate’s book from Day 1 by McCann sceptics, many of whom had neither bought the book nor even read it before doling out the one star reviews.  Utterly pathetic behaviour but totally anticipated and par for the course.

Unlike other parents who have lost a child in tragic circumstances and subsequently written a book the McCanns don't come over as authentic imo. 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 28, 2019, 07:35:59 PM
We know they found it difficult to fess up to the fact they left the children in the unsecured apartment as KM tells us as much in her PB.  Plus it is widely agreed that in the immediate aftermath KM kept repeating over and over "We've let her down, we've let her down".
I agree with all if that... So what does the body language tell us that we don't already know
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 28, 2019, 07:37:14 PM
Unlike other parents who have lost a child in tragic circumstances and subsequently written a book the McCanns don't come over as authentic imo.

What do you mean by authentic

Considering the book reviews the vast majority do see them as authentic
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: misty on October 28, 2019, 07:37:30 PM
But it can, it is clearly indicated in GM's statements in words which cannot possibly be a translation error. There is only one door that can be locked and unlocked from the outside and that is the front door leading to the car park. Similarly, there is only one sliding door into the lounge and that is the rear patio door.


G McCann Police Statement 11.15am on 4th May 2007

"As usual, every half hour and as the restaurant was near, the witness or his wife, would check whether the children were all right. In this way, at about 21.05 the witness came to the Club, entered the room using his respective key, the door being locked, went to his children's bedroom and checked that the twins were fine, as was Madeleine. "He then went to the WC" where he remained for a few moments, left..."

https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN.htm


G McCann Police Statement  3.20pm on 10th May 2007

"Despite what he said in his previous statements, he states now and with certainty, that he left with KATE by the rear door which he consequently closed but did not lock given that that is only possible from the inside. Referring to the front door, while he is certain that it was closed it is unlikely that it was locked as [because] they had left by the rear door."

"At 21H05 MATHEW returned, the time at which the deponent left the table to go to check how his children were.

----- He followed the normal route up to the rear door, which being open he only had to move [slide] it, that being the way in which he entered [was entering] the lounge..."

https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P4/04_VOLUME_IVa_Page_891.jpg



Somehow I don't think one can blame an interpreter/translator for those words.

Gerry's statement of the 4th refers to "his respective key" but there was only one key. He said he used it to enter the apartment to check on the children.
His second statement on the 10th refers to how he exited the apartment with Kate, not the entry point for the subsequent checks.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 28, 2019, 07:41:36 PM
Gerry's statement of the 4th refers to "his respective key" but there was only one key. He said he used it to enter the apartment to check on the children.
His second statement on the 10th refers to how he exited the apartment with Kate, not the entry point for the subsequent checks.
But unless Gerry handed the key to Matt and Kate they have to enter via the unlocked patio door.  It is only Gerry who has the option of using the key on the front door.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 28, 2019, 07:46:35 PM
It is what Kate is willing to do for others too. I don't know them that well but there is  one detailed promise and that was that the find Madeleine fund would be used to help other missing children once Madeleine was found.

She writes a book it earns millions and she is willing to be charitable with the proceeds.

What has KM done for others? 

I'm not sure where you get millions from?  If MM is found and the fund has surplus to requirement funds what else could she use the funds for without it turning into a complete PR disaster?

No idea how reliable the following is but it seems the royalties could be used to fund their ongoing legal war with GA.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6581173/Madeleine-McCanns-parents-Kate-Gerry-saving-85-000-royalties-mothers-book.html
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 28, 2019, 07:47:04 PM
Gerry's statement of the 4th refers to "his respective key" but there was only one key. He said he used it to enter the apartment to check on the children.
His second statement on the 10th refers to how he exited the apartment with Kate, not the entry point for the subsequent checks.

If there was only one key why would gerry refer to... His respective key... That simply cannot be an accurate account of what Gerry said.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 28, 2019, 07:48:25 PM
Unlike other parents who have lost a child in tragic circumstances and subsequently written a book the McCanns don't come over as authentic imo.
Well you’re entitled to your opinion, but it’s odd that not one magazine or newspaper reviewer picked up on this alleged inauthenticity, most described the account as honest and frank, as well as devastating and moving.  Personally I think you are quite wrong.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 28, 2019, 07:50:01 PM
I agree with all if that... So what does the body language tell us that we don't already know

Anyone looking at GM's initial testimony objectively can see it is full of holes and I don't think to this day he has told the truth and that imo is why he starts scratching his nose and back of his neck. 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 28, 2019, 07:51:36 PM
Anyone looking at GM's initial testimony objectively can see it is full of holes and I don't think to this day he has told the truth and that imo is why he starts scratching his nose and back of his neck.

By his initial testimony are you referring to the twice translated non verbatim statement.. You have your opinion snd I think you are miles from the truth
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 28, 2019, 07:53:45 PM
Gerry's statement of the 4th refers to "his respective key" but there was only one key. He said he used it to enter the apartment to check on the children.
His second statement on the 10th refers to how he exited the apartment with Kate, not the entry point for the subsequent checks.

Excellent point..


"Despite what he said in his previous statements, he states now and with certainty, that he left with KATE by the rear door which he consequently closed


So where in his previous statement does he make a contrary statement to leaving by the rear door... Gerry doesn't say in his previous statement which door he exited by with Kate... So where's the contradiction
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: misty on October 28, 2019, 07:57:11 PM
But unless Gerry handed the key to Matt and Kate they have to enter via the unlocked patio door.  It is only Gerry who has the option of using the key on the front door.
Matt & Kate both said they entered via the open patio door. Gerry having the key to the front door didn't change that. On previous evenings & during the day the front door had been Gerry's point of exit.
The translation for 10th May also refers to "statements". There is only one earlier statement in the files.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 28, 2019, 07:57:55 PM
As long as Gerry had the key he can enter the front and leave via the unlocked patio door.

I'm not sure what this has to do with GM claiming he left the apartment via the front door after his 9 pm ish check when in fact he left via the patio doors?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 28, 2019, 08:00:07 PM
By his initial testimony are you referring to the twice translated non verbatim statement.. You have your opinion snd I think you are miles from the truth

I will start up a new thread to discuss. 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 28, 2019, 08:00:20 PM
I'm not sure what this has to do with GM claiming he left the apartment via the front door after his 9 pm ish check when in fact he left via the patio doors?

Quite a simple mistake for thr translator to make
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 28, 2019, 08:02:28 PM
What has KM done for others? 

I'm not sure where you get millions from?  If MM is found and the fund has surplus to requirement funds what else could she use the funds for without it turning into a complete PR disaster?

No idea how reliable the following is but it seems the royalties could be used to fund their ongoing legal war with GA.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6581173/Madeleine-McCanns-parents-Kate-Gerry-saving-85-000-royalties-mothers-book.html
It sounds like royalties are coming in every year.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 28, 2019, 08:02:55 PM
Whereas, I have no idea as to why you are repeating the same question over and over, like.

I've answered.  Time to move on.
Just as I predicted, another non answer, many thanks.  The simple fact is you want Madeleine to be the main focus of the book but when pushed to explain how you are completely unable to.  So, criticism for criticism’s sake. 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 28, 2019, 08:08:31 PM
I'm not sure what this has to do with GM claiming he left the apartment via the front door after his 9 pm ish check when in fact he left via the patio doors?
I read Gerry's 4th May statement again and it doesn't mention how he left.  What words do you think he made?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: ShiningInLuz on October 28, 2019, 08:27:20 PM
Just as I predicted, another non answer, many thanks.  The simple fact is you want Madeleine to be the main focus of the book but when pushed to explain how you are completely unable to.  So, criticism for criticism’s sake.

I've answered.   &^^&*

Save 10615 for something more constructive.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 28, 2019, 08:32:21 PM
I've answered.   &^^&*

Save 10615 for something more constructive.
&^&*%
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 28, 2019, 09:33:15 PM
Quite a simple mistake for thr translator to make

But there are so many contradictions and inconsistencies that they can't all be blamed on the translator.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 28, 2019, 09:44:20 PM
But there are so many contradictions and inconsistencies that they can't all be blamed on the translator.
Without the mccanns English statements.. We don't know what they said
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 28, 2019, 09:51:44 PM
I read Gerry's 4th May statement again and it doesn't mention how he left.  What words do you think he made?

4th May

In this way, at about 21.05 the witness came to the Club, entered the room using his respective key, the door being locked, went to his children's bedroom and checked that the twins were fine, as was Madeleine.

10th May

At 21H05 MATHEW returned, the time at which the deponent left the table to go to check how his children were.

----- He followed the normal route up to the rear door, which being open he only had to move [slide] it, that being the way in which he entered [was entering] the lounge,
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 28, 2019, 09:53:08 PM
Without the mccanns English statements.. We don't know what they said

Yes we do.  We have a variety of testimony from a wide range of sources including their own words on video. 

Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 28, 2019, 09:56:10 PM
Yes we do.  We have a variety of testimony from a wide range of sources including their own words on video.

Could you provide a link to support gerry changing his mind or something of significance
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 28, 2019, 10:06:52 PM
4th May

In this way, at about 21.05 the witness came to the Club, entered the room using his respective key, the door being locked, went to his children's bedroom and checked that the twins were fine, as was Madeleine.

10th May

At 21H05 MATHEW returned, the time at which the deponent left the table to go to check how his children were.

----- He followed the normal route up to the rear door, which being open he only had to move [slide] it, that being the way in which he entered [was entering] the lounge,

I read that bit but where does it say Gerry left via the front door?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: G-Unit on October 29, 2019, 07:55:11 AM
Gerry's statement of the 4th refers to "his respective key" but there was only one key. He said he used it to enter the apartment to check on the children.
His second statement on the 10th refers to how he exited the apartment with Kate, not the entry point for the subsequent checks.

The statement doesn't say Gerry's key, it says 'the door's key', or the key belonging to that door.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Brietta on October 29, 2019, 08:51:02 AM
       The topic is ... madeleine by Kate McCann
Please stick to that topic:  thank you
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 29, 2019, 09:11:12 AM
This thread was started with the express intention of criticising Kate McCann for using the word “mad” to describe some of the mail the McCanns received from members of the public.  I mean, just how snowflakey and politically correct can you get??!  Is “mad” now a proscribed word, along with “black”, “fat” and “he/she”? 

And supporters get accused of being Stalin-like snowflakes!  Jesu. 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 29, 2019, 10:11:16 AM
This thread was started with the express intention of criticising Kate McCann for using the word “mad” to describe some of the mail the McCanns received from members of the public.  I mean, just how snowflakey and politically correct can you get??!  Is “mad” now a proscribed word, along with “black”, “fat” and “he/she”? 

And supporters get accused of being Stalin-like snowflakes!  Jesu.

I started the thread to discuss the contents of the PB.  Much the same way that I started a thread to discuss the PB written by DC. 

KM used the word 'mad' to describe those suffering mental illness. 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Brietta on October 29, 2019, 10:14:19 AM
This thread was started with the express intention of criticising Kate McCann for using the word “mad” to describe some of the mail the McCanns received from members of the public.  I mean, just how snowflakey and politically correct can you get??!  Is “mad” now a proscribed word, along with “black”, “fat” and “he/she”? 

And supporters get accused of being Stalin-like snowflakes!  Jesu.

Perhaps the opening post was designed to encourage discussion about the contents of Kate's book and not about Kate as a personality.
Perhaps it required more hands on policing to ensure that the thread continued along the lines of what it said on the tin ... Kate McCann's (KM's) Paperback (PB).
My request for On Topic posting was prompted by the way in which we had managed to be directed back into the mire of general McCann opprobrium and away from the specific of Kate's book.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Brietta on October 29, 2019, 10:16:17 AM
I started the thread to discuss the contents of the PB.  Much the same way that I started a thread to discuss the PB written by DC. 

KM used the word 'mad' to describe those suffering mental illness.

In my opinion and that of the dictionary that is the recognised definition of 'mad'.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 29, 2019, 10:17:18 AM
I started the thread to discuss the contents of the PB.  Much the same way that I started a thread to discuss the PB written by DC. 

KM used the word 'mad' to describe those suffering mental illness.
Did she - I thought it wad the letters she was describing in such a way.  Have you got a cite?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 29, 2019, 10:21:41 AM
Did she - I thought it wad the letters she was describing in such a way.  Have you got a cite?

Mad and nutty used to describe the mentally ill.  She's lucky it fell under the radar. 

https://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11064.msg558772#msg558772
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 29, 2019, 10:27:00 AM
In my opinion and that of the dictionary that is the recognised definition of 'mad'.

The dictionary also defines my genitalia as c**t!
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Brietta on October 29, 2019, 10:27:44 AM
Did she - I thought it wad the letters she was describing in such a way.  Have you got a cite?

Kate writes with great sensitivity about the problems of mental health to all concerned even expressing her concern for those whose letters were consigned to the "nutty" box.

From what she has written in her book concerning the issue I fail to see how the judgement made in the opening post is applicable or how the writer came to that conclusion.

As I say ... perhaps encouraging discussion in the absence of anything else?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Brietta on October 29, 2019, 10:30:57 AM
The dictionary also defines my genitalia as c**t!

Really??  My dictionary doesn't.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Brietta on October 29, 2019, 10:37:20 AM
Mad and nutty used to describe the mentally ill.  She's lucky it fell under the radar. 

https://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11064.msg558772#msg558772

Under what radar ???

Perhaps certain passages in Kate's book mean a lot more to some than to others particularly when quoted out of context.

Who can ever forget the "Tweedledum and Tweedledee" outrage ... or was it "Tweedledee and Tweedledum" ???

A reeally important part of a book describing the real life disappearance of a little girl ... I think not. but there are those who do.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 29, 2019, 10:37:34 AM
Really??  My dictionary doesn't.

Yes really! 

The dictionary contains all sorts of words that many deem offensive and archaic. 

I would not have expected KM, as a highly qualified medi practitioner to refer to those suffering from mental illness as 'mad' and 'nutty'. 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Eleanor on October 29, 2019, 10:39:27 AM
The dictionary also defines my genitalia as c**t!

Was there any need for that?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 29, 2019, 10:45:26 AM
Under what radar ???

Mental health charities, British Medical Assoc (BMA) etc. 

Perhaps certain passages in Kate's book mean a lot more to some than to others particularly when quoted out of context.

Who can ever forget the "Tweedledum and Tweedledee" outrage ... or was it "Tweedledee and Tweedledum" ???

It shows someone who is somewhat judgemental which by her own admission she is. 

A reeally important part of a book describing the real life disappearance of a little girl ... I think not. but there are those who do.

A little girl who in all probability would not have disappeared had her parents not been so reckless. 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Brietta on October 29, 2019, 10:47:02 AM
Yes really! 

The dictionary contains all sorts of words that many deem offensive and archaic. 

I would not have expected KM, as a highly qualified medi practitioner to refer to those suffering from mental illness as 'mad' and 'nutty'.

Actually you are wrong in all counts in my opinion.

You have already been asked by another member to provide a cite supporting your statements ... I think it would be good if you would comply.

In my opinion you are systematically putting your own interpretation into Kate's writing which was never there in the first instance.
Unless you can explain how Kate putting correspondence into the "nutty box" becomes her calling individuals "nutty"?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 29, 2019, 10:47:47 AM
Was there any need for that?

Just because the dictionary provides the definition of a word doesn't mean to say its appropriate to use. 

Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 29, 2019, 10:54:54 AM
Actually you are wrong in all counts in my opinion.

You thinking I'm wrong doesn't make me so.

You have already been asked by another member to provide a cite supporting your statements ... I think it would be good if you would comply.

I have complied.  P. 379.

In my opinion you are systematically putting your own interpretation into Kate's writing which was never there in the first instance.
Unless you can explain how Kate putting correspondence into the "nutty box" becomes her calling individuals "nutty"?

Its not open to interpretation.  Its there in black and white. 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Brietta on October 29, 2019, 10:59:48 AM
Mental health charities, British Medical Assoc (BMA) etc. 

It shows someone who is somewhat judgemental which by her own admission she is. 

A little girl who in all probability would not have disappeared had her parents not been so reckless.

Quote
Mental illness is a difficult thing to understand. It’s not like a broken leg or blocked artery, where the condition and solution are obvious. Gerry and I have a little personal and professional experience of it, and during the six months I worked in psychiatry I found it heartbreaking as well as quite fascinating.  To see someone you know as a warm, interesting and intelligent person when well and stable admitted to the ward in an uninhibited, distant and dishevelled state is very upsetting, and I can only begin to imagine how difficult it must be for partners, families and, of course, for the patients themselves, who must be so frightened and frustrated.
madeleine ... Kate McCann

I think you are on a very sticky wicket indeed if you imagine that anyone who has actually read Kate's book with unblinkered eyes would share your opinion of what she has written about the issue of mental health.

I think she was also well qualified to interpret how to file communications she received. 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Eleanor on October 29, 2019, 11:02:54 AM
Just because the dictionary provides the definition of a word doesn't mean to say its appropriate to use.

Then why do so in this case?  you have just grossly offended me.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Brietta on October 29, 2019, 11:06:11 AM
You thinking I'm wrong doesn't make me so.

I have complied.  P. 379.

Its not open to interpretation.  Its there in black and white.

You have not complied until you have provided the quote which you attribute to Kate.  Your opinion doesn't count, it needs a quote something along the lines of TD/TD or P will do.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: The General on October 29, 2019, 11:08:51 AM
Then why do so in this case?  you have just grossly offended me.
So delete it.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 29, 2019, 11:11:46 AM
Then why do so in this case?  you have just grossly offended me.

As The General said delete it but anyway you agree that the dictionary contains all sorts of words that many find offensive ie just because the dictionary contains the definition of a word does not mean it is appropriate to use eg 'mad' for the mentally ill?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 29, 2019, 11:12:21 AM
I started the thread to discuss the contents of the PB.  Much the same way that I started a thread to discuss the PB written by DC. 

KM used the word 'mad' to describe those suffering mental illness.

No she didn't... She described the theories as mad.... Just as I could describe your claim to have solved the case as mad or crazy....
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Eleanor on October 29, 2019, 11:20:19 AM
As The General said delete it but anyway you agree that the dictionary contains all sorts of words that many find offensive ie just because the dictionary contains the definition of a word does not mean it is appropriate to use eg 'mad' for the mentally ill?

You seriously think there is a comparison?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 29, 2019, 11:25:30 AM
You have not complied until you have provided the quote which you attribute to Kate.  Your opinion doesn't count, it needs a quote something along the lines of TD/TD or P will do.

KM's labelling of her mail boxes:

- Information/for follow up
- Well-wishers
- Psychics/Dowsers/Visions
- Nasty
- Nutty

"The nonsensical letters destined for the 'Nutty' Box, have arrived fairly consistently.

"And then there are those it is impossible to be sure about whose correspondence goes into the 'Nutty' box.  We must assume that most of these letters, though not necessarily all of them, are sent by people suffering from mental illness, and I don't want to make light of their problems.  Indeed it is concerning, if our mail is anything to go by, how many vulnerable individuals there see to be out there with psychiatric conditions that remain either undiagnosed or nadequately treated".


Not labelling them in disparaging terms might be a start.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 29, 2019, 11:28:47 AM
KM's labelling of her mail boxes:

- Information/for follow up
- Well-wishers
- Psychics/Dowsers/Visions
- Nasty
- Nutty

"The nonsensical letters destined for the 'Nutty' Box, have arrived fairly consistently.

"And then there are those it is impossible to be sure about whose correspondence goes into the 'Nutty' box.  We must assume that most of these letters, though not necessarily all of them, are sent by people suffering from mental illness, and I don't want to make light of their problems.  Indeed it is concerning, if our mail is anything to go by, how many vulnerable individuals there see to be out there with psychiatric conditions that remain either undiagnosed or nadequately treated".


Not labelling them in disparaging terms might be a start.
You have misunderstood.
Kate is labelling the theories as nutty... Not the people who have sent them... She points this out clearly when she says not all in the nutty box came from the mentally I'll.  You are just interpreting it in a negative light... Imo
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 29, 2019, 11:32:18 AM
You seriously think there is a comparison?

Brietta posted that her dictionary uses the word 'mad' to describe the mentally ill.  I have pointed out that just because the dictionary offers up a description of a word doesn't make it appropriate to use. 

Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 29, 2019, 11:35:43 AM
You have misunderstood.
Kate is labelling the theories as nutty... Not the people who have sent them... She points this out clearly when she says not all in the nutty box came from the mentally I'll.  You are just interpreting it in a negative light... Imo

You stating I have misunderstood something doesn't make it so.

Why would a qualified medi doctor and former GP describe theories sent to her in confidence and good faith by the mentally ill as 'nutty'?

Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 29, 2019, 11:39:30 AM
You stating I have misunderstood something doesn't make it so.

Why would a qualified medi doctor and former GP describe theories sent to her in confidence and good faith by the mentally ill as 'nutty'?

she described the theories as nutty...as she points out the nutty theories were not sent specifically by the mentally ill..

the mentally ill may well have sent some very good theories too..at least you none accept it was the theories she refferrred to not the people
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 29, 2019, 11:53:29 AM
she described the theories as nutty...as she points out the nutty theories were not sent specifically by the mentally ill..

the mentally ill may well have sent some very good theories too..at least you none accept it was the theories she refferrred to not the people

I've accepted nothing of the sort.  Why would a medi doc/GP want to go anywhere near referring to the mentally ill as 'nutty'.  If she labelled her box in such a way why the need to write about it in her book? 

If the mentally ill sent in some good theories then no doubt these went in the box labelled up 'Information/For Follow Up'.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 29, 2019, 11:56:48 AM
I've accepted nothing of the sort.  Why would a medi doc/GP want to go anywhere near referring to the mentally ill as 'nutty'.  If she labelled her box in such a way why the need to write about it in her book? 

If the mentally ill sent in some good theories then no doubt these went in the box labelled up 'Information/For Follow Up'.

you claimed she referred to the mentally ill as nutty...that is clearly not true...she referred to the theories sent in as nutty...that is  a significant misunderstanding by you...if you disagree please provide a cite where she refers to the mentally ill as nutty
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Brietta on October 29, 2019, 12:11:21 PM
KM's labelling of her mail boxes:

- Information/for follow up
- Well-wishers
- Psychics/Dowsers/Visions
- Nasty
- Nutty

"The nonsensical letters destined for the 'Nutty' Box, have arrived fairly consistently.

"And then there are those it is impossible to be sure about whose correspondence goes into the 'Nutty' box.  We must assume that most of these letters, though not necessarily all of them, are sent by people suffering from mental illness, and I don't want to make light of their problems.  Indeed it is concerning, if our mail is anything to go by, how many vulnerable individuals there see to be out there with psychiatric conditions that remain either undiagnosed or nadequately treated".


Not labelling them in disparaging terms might be a start.

In my opinion that is not a cite which backs up your claims.

I think she shows a very even handed insightful approach to mental illness in her book.  I don't read into it what your prejudices lead you proclaim to the extent of putting words into her mouth.

There is a tendency in your posts to castigate Kate's approach to the reality of mental health issues with the prejudices of the past.
It is not as straight forward to deal with as other illnesses ... as I have already quoted Kate as writing ... but she is a professional who has studied and worked with those suffering from the conditions. 
Unlike some members of the general public I don't think she is swayed by the stigmatisation of those suffering mental health issues; but in my opinion she is perfectly well qualified to interpret the mental health of someone putting pen to paper without prejudice.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Brietta on October 29, 2019, 12:18:18 PM
You stating I have misunderstood something doesn't make it so.

Why would a qualified medi doctor and former GP describe theories sent to her in confidence and good faith by the mentally ill as 'nutty'?

Obviously I have no idea what correspondence ended up in the 'nutty' box but I have read quite a lot on social media which very likely should have found a niche alongside them.

Who said anything about 'theories'?  Certainly not Kate in her book ... I think that may be just another invention you have come up with ... unless you have a cite.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: G-Unit on October 29, 2019, 12:22:48 PM
I notice that Kate McCann distinguishes between  'nutty' and 'nasty' letters; the 'nutty' ones are described as 'nonsensical'. She doesn't elaborate much on what this nonsense consists of, but she does mention facts, figures and symbols;


Within days of Madeleine’s disappearance, several people with major psychiatric problems made their way over to Praia da Luz and somehow managed to get to see Gerry and me. In spite of the state we were in, we found it hard to ignore anybody who was trying to help, even if what they were telling us was complete nonsense. Some of them were very persistent: they would track us down again and again, wielding their piles of papers full of totally
illogical ‘facts’, figures and symbols. It was draining and at times a little scary. [madeleine]

I wonder how the press, desperate for stories, missed this parade of seriously disturbed people beating a path to the McCann's door?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Brietta on October 29, 2019, 12:27:55 PM
I notice that Kate McCann distinguishes between  'nutty' and 'nasty' letters; the 'nutty' ones are described as 'nonsensical'. She doesn't elaborate much on what this nonsense consists of, but she does mention facts, figures and symbols;


Within days of Madeleine’s disappearance, several people with major psychiatric problems made their way over to Praia da Luz and somehow managed to get to see Gerry and me. In spite of the state we were in, we found it hard to ignore anybody who was trying to help, even if what they were telling us was complete nonsense. Some of them were very persistent: they would track us down again and again, wielding their piles of papers full of totally
illogical ‘facts’, figures and symbols. It was draining and at times a little scary. [madeleine]

I wonder how the press, desperate for stories, missed this parade of seriously disturbed people beating a path to the McCann's door?

Weren't the press also part of the people beating a path to the McCann's door?

Certainly an indication of exactly why steps had to be taken to address the problems faced by victims of a heinous crime in a foreign land.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: jassi on October 29, 2019, 12:30:41 PM
Oh I like that - heinous crime, not just any old crime, but a heinous crime no less.  ?{)(**
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: G-Unit on October 29, 2019, 01:39:33 PM
Weren't the press also part of the people beating a path to the McCann's door?

Certainly an indication of exactly why steps had to be taken to address the problems faced by victims of a heinous crime in a foreign land.

The press were camped outside the McCann's door if the photos are to be believed; that's why the barrister and whoever he came with were told to be inconspicuous.

What steps were taken to address problems? How did these people get through anyway?

Which 'major psychiatric problems' drive people to go to Portugal within days to find the parents of a disappeared child?

Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Brietta on October 29, 2019, 01:50:40 PM
The press were camped outside the McCann's door if the photos are to be believed; that's why the barrister and whoever he came with were told to be inconspicuous.

What steps were taken to address problems? How did these people get through anyway?

Which 'major psychiatric problems' drive people to go to Portugal within days to find the parents of a disappeared child?

Is there the slightest chance you would be able to find something to criticise or even praise Kate for which actually appears within the pages of her book?  That way we will be able to at least pay lip service to staying on the supposed topic of the thread.  Thank you.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 29, 2019, 01:55:27 PM
Obviously I have no idea what correspondence ended up in the 'nutty' box but I have read quite a lot on social media which very likely should have found a niche alongside them.

Who said anything about 'theories'? Certainly not Kate in her book ... I think that may be just another invention you have come up with ... unless you have a cite.

See Davel's post #563
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 29, 2019, 02:04:20 PM
I was amazed when I arrived at chapter 20 to find it entitled 'The good, the bad and the mad; the mad referring to those suffering mental illness.  Somewhat worrying to hear such a label given to the mentally ill by a medi doctor and former GP who goes on to explain correspondence received from such individuals went into the 'Nutty' box.  (Page 379).

you have failed to provide a cite showing kate referred to the mentally ill as mad or nutty. As I pointed out she was referring to theories sent in....
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: The General on October 29, 2019, 02:09:49 PM
Weren't the press also part of the people beating a path to the McCann's door?

Certainly an indication of exactly why steps had to be taken to address the problems faced by victims of a heinous crime in a foreign land.
Let's keep it on topic, guys.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Brietta on October 29, 2019, 02:10:16 PM
See Davel's post #563

  ... and Davel is quoted in Kate's book where???  I'm afraid you will have to point it out as I appear to have missed it.

For information : an appropriate way of indicating a post is I believe ... http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11064.msg559734#msg559734 rather than # which is rendered next to useless should a swatch of OT posts be deleted.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 29, 2019, 02:15:18 PM
Is there the slightest chance you would be able to find something to criticise or even praise Kate for which actually appears within the pages of her book?  That way we will be able to at least pay lip service to staying on the supposed topic of the thread.  Thank you.

Is there the slightest chance you would be able to find something to criticise KM about which actually appears within the pages of her book?  Or do you perceive KM as the embodiment of perfection?

 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 29, 2019, 02:17:01 PM
  ... and Davel is quoted in Kate's book where???  I'm afraid you will have to point it out as I appear to have missed it.

For information : an appropriate way of indicating a post is I believe ... http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11064.msg559734#msg559734 rather than # which is rendered next to useless should a swatch of OT posts be deleted.

Its posters' responsibility to read posts and follow the developing arguments and themes.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 29, 2019, 02:18:05 PM
you have failed to provide a cite showing kate referred to the mentally ill as mad or nutty. As I pointed out she was referring to theories sent in....

You saying I have failed at something doesn't make it so. 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: G-Unit on October 29, 2019, 02:18:50 PM
Is there the slightest chance you would be able to find something to criticise or even praise Kate for which actually appears within the pages of her book?  That way we will be able to at least pay lip service to staying on the supposed topic of the thread.  Thank you.

I was replying to your post, point by point. Does 'the press beating a path to the McCann's door' appear in her book? Do 'the steps' taken to address their problems appear in her book? Perhaps you could provide the relevant cites so we can see if you are paying lip service to the topic. Thank you.

Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: The General on October 29, 2019, 02:21:14 PM
you have failed to provide a cite showing kate referred to the mentally ill as mad or nutty. As I pointed out she was referring to theories sent in....
Let's say you're right (and you usually are), does labelling the theory as 'nutty' automatically determine that the author is equally 'nutty'? Does Kate hold contempt for the theory or the author? Or both? Can a 'nutty' theory, written in good faith, be authored by a sane person? Would a 'nutty' person be able to come up with a cogent, plausible theory that passes muster? Madness is in many respects the inverted mirror of the developed consciousness, incorporating the structures of rationality within a different construction of the relation between the self and its world. Considering this framework, can we correlate the madness of the self with the output  / outward manifestation?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 29, 2019, 02:22:31 PM
You saying I have failed at something doesn't make it so.

You haven't provided a cite to Kate calling the mentally ill nutty... Avoiding doesn't mean you have
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 29, 2019, 02:27:06 PM
Let's say you're right (and you usually are), does labelling the theory as 'nutty' automatically determine that the author is equally 'nutty'? Does Kate hold contempt for the theory or the author? Or both? Can a 'nutty' theory, written in good faith, be authored by a sane person? Would a 'nutty' person be able to come up with a cogent, plausible theory that passes muster? Madness is in many respects the inverted mirror of the developed consciousness, incorporating the structures of rationality within a different construction of the relation between the self and its world. Considering this framework, can we correlate the madness of the self with the output  / outward manifestation?

If you read Kates post she says only some of the nutty posts cam from the mentally I'll... So some came from perfectly sane..
Could a mentally ill  person produce a sane theory.... Of course... A biploar person... Shut that bloody noise up... May function very well and produce ⚡flashes of pure brilliance
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: The General on October 29, 2019, 02:30:12 PM
If you read Kates post she says only some of the nutty posts cam from the mentally I'll... So some came from perfectly sane..
Could a mentally ill  person produce a sane theory.... Of course... A biploar person... Shut that bloody noise up... May function very well and produce ⚡flashes of pure brilliance
....or.....is she then making the distinction that only the nutty ones came from the mentally ill, with the balance being reasonable theories, albeit simply misguided?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: G-Unit on October 29, 2019, 02:30:24 PM
you have failed to provide a cite showing kate referred to the mentally ill as mad or nutty. As I pointed out she was referring to theories sent in....

She certainly referred to people with major psychiactric problems turning up in Luz with 'nonsense' facts, figures and symbols. I assume those went into her 'nutty' box. 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: The General on October 29, 2019, 02:33:59 PM
She certainly referred to people with major psychiactric problems turning up in Luz with 'nonsense' facts, figures and symbols. I assume those went into her 'nutty' box.
Wasn't the concept of 'woke and wandered' met with similar derision and incredulity? The phrase coined escapes me.
A fairly reasonable initial theory / assumption given the apparent 'evidence'.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: G-Unit on October 29, 2019, 02:45:31 PM
Wasn't the concept of 'woke and wandered' met with similar derision and incredulity? The phrase coined escapes me.
A fairly reasonable initial theory / assumption given the apparent 'evidence'.

Guilhermino Encarnação had briefly mentioned three potential explanations for Madeleine’s disappearance: a
burglary that had ‘changed direction’, abduction and the possibility that she had wandered off by herself...

I have always found the third suggestion insulting to our intelligence, frankly.
[madeleine, Chapter 7; Aftermath.]
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: The General on October 29, 2019, 02:49:06 PM
Guilhermino Encarnação had briefly mentioned three potential explanations for Madeleine’s disappearance: a
burglary that had ‘changed direction’, abduction and the possibility that she had wandered off by herself...

I have always found the third suggestion insulting to our intelligence, frankly.
[madeleine, Chapter 7; Aftermath.]
'Always found'. So why bother searching initially then? Who automatically jumps to abduction in that moment? Who's 'nutty' now?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 29, 2019, 02:50:10 PM
....or.....is she then making the distinction that only the nutty ones came from the mentally ill, with the balance being reasonable theories, albeit simply misguided?
She says not all of the ones in the nutty box came from the mentally ill
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: The General on October 29, 2019, 03:04:25 PM
She says not all of the ones in the nutty box came from the mentally ill
So some sane people sent some nutty ones?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 29, 2019, 03:07:58 PM
So some sane people sent some nutty ones?
Yes
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: The General on October 29, 2019, 03:16:54 PM
Yes
So does she specify whether any decent ones came from 'nutty' people?
And how would she know which of the 'nutty' ones came from sane people?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 29, 2019, 03:21:14 PM
So does she specify whether any decent ones came from 'nutty' people?
And how would she know which of the 'nutty' ones came from sane people?

If you read what she said I'm sure you will be able to answer all those questions yourself
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: The General on October 29, 2019, 03:31:29 PM
If you read what she said I'm sure you will be able to answer all those questions yourself
I believe the term in dominos is 'check mate'. She couldn't possibly know which of the 'nutty' theories came from sane people, which you admit must have occurred, ergo, she is labelling all 'nutty' theories as coming from nutty people.

Besides, I'm not reading it.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 29, 2019, 03:50:10 PM
I believe the term in dominos is 'check mate'. She couldn't possibly know which of the 'nutty' theories came from sane people, which you admit must have occurred, ergo, she is labelling all 'nutty' theories as coming from nutty people.

Besides, I'm not reading it.

If you read it you would see you are wrong
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: The General on October 29, 2019, 03:53:31 PM
If you read it you would see you are wrong
I'm right.
I'm not sure I have the constitution to read some self-aggrandising, self-indulgent, Janet and John / Mills and Boon, semi-fictional, ghost-written, charity shop two-bob tat account.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Erngath on October 29, 2019, 03:58:32 PM
I'm right.
I'm not sure I have the constitution to read some self-aggrandising, self-indulgent, Janet and John / Mills and Boon, semi-fictional, ghost-written, charity shop two-bob tat account.


Wow!
You should do book reviews on Amazon.
Many do so and  also without reading the book.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 29, 2019, 04:04:26 PM
I'm right.
I'm not sure I have the constitution to read some self-aggrandising, self-indulgent, Janet and John / Mills and Boon, semi-fictional, ghost-written, charity shop two-bob tat account.


It's only two lines... But I agree.. Life's too short to bother
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: G-Unit on October 29, 2019, 04:28:19 PM
'Always found'. So why bother searching initially then? Who automatically jumps to abduction in that moment? Who's 'nutty' now?

According to Kate she, as opposed to the PJ, had the intelligence required to work out what happened.

Reasons to reject woke and wandered.

1. Jane Tanner's sighting.
2. The open window and shutters, which Madeleine couldn't have managed.
3. The patio doors, child gate and garden gate being closed.
4. She knew Madeleine well enough to know she wouldn't wander off.
[madeleine chapter 7]

In my opinion that may all make sense to Kate McCann, but not necessarily to anyone else. It has nothing to do with intelligence either.

1.            The Tanner sighting was highly likely to be a red herring, it transpires.
2, 3 & 4.  Madeleine wouldn't be the first child to surprise her parents with her capabilities.

The McCann's friends, Mark Warner staff, the local people and the Portuguese Police were correct to make searching PdL their first priority imo.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: The General on October 29, 2019, 04:41:15 PM
Wow!
You should do book reviews on Amazon.
Many do so and  also without reading the book.
You see, Ern, I have an innate mistrust of Amazon book reviews. Not because of fraudulence per se, but because the very fact that a. someone has bought the book and b. deemed it necessary to leave a review, automatically taints impartiality, as the vast majority will be familiar with the case and sympathise, and the majority of the remainder will be suitably moved by the emotive content, given their position in the demographic who are drawn to buying the book in the first instance.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Erngath on October 29, 2019, 04:41:27 PM
'Always found'. So why bother searching initially then? Who automatically jumps to abduction in that moment? Who's 'nutty' now?

Within a very short time one does automatically jump to the thought that one's child/grandchild has been taken.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Erngath on October 29, 2019, 04:43:51 PM
You see, Ern, I have an innate mistrust of Amazon book reviews. Not because of fraudulence per se, but because the very fact that a. someone has bought the book and b. deemed it necessary to leave a review, automatically taints impartiality, as the vast majority will be familiar with the case and sympathise, and the majority of the remainder will be suitably moved by the emotive content, given their position in the demographic who are drawn to buying the book in the first instance.

I'm very pleased to report that although I have bought many a book from Amazon, including Kate's book, as of yet I have never been inclined to publish a review .
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: The General on October 29, 2019, 04:46:43 PM
According to Kate she, as opposed to the PJ, had the intelligence required to work out what happened.

Reasons to reject woke and wandered.

1. Jane Tanner's sighting.
2. The open window and shutters, which Madeleine couldn't have managed.
3. The patio doors, child gate and garden gate being closed.
4. She knew Madeleine well enough to know she wouldn't wander off.
[madeleine chapter 7]

In my opinion that may all make sense to Kate McCann, but not necessarily to anyone else. It has nothing to do with intelligence either.

1.            The Tanner sighting was highly likely to be a red herring, it transpires.
2, 3 & 4.  Madeleine wouldn't be the first child to surprise her parents with her capabilities.

The McCann's friends, Mark Warner staff, the local people and the Portuguese Police were correct to make searching PdL their first priority imo.
I'd go one further. It would be illogical to consider anything else at that stage - window or no window. You'd be going scatty running around like a nutty person searching everywhere. Unless you were too intelligent, of course.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: The General on October 29, 2019, 04:50:13 PM
I'm very pleased to report that although I have bought many a book from Amazon, including Kate's book, as of yet I have never been inclined to publish a review .
Yeh, I've bought many books from Amazon, it's great. I've also never left a review. Which sort of reinforces my point - a certain demographic will be moved to buy the book, then subsequently leave any review. I have no data to support this, but the I assume the overwhelming majority of sceptics won't buy it, for fear of swelling the McCann coffers - so the review data is automatically biased and tainted.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Erngath on October 29, 2019, 04:52:03 PM
Yeh, I've bought many books from Amazon, it's great. I've also never left a review. Which sort of reinforces my point - a certain demographic will be moved to buy the book, then subsequently leave any review. I have no data to support this, but the I assume the overwhelming majority of sceptics won't buy it, for fear of swelling the McCann coffers - so the review data is automatically biased and tainted.

Have you read  the book which is the focus of this thread?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: The General on October 29, 2019, 04:56:49 PM
Have you read  the book which is the focus of this thread?
No. For fear of swelling the McCann coffers. Joking. No, I haven't. I'll be honest, I don't think I'll be able to stop laughing. I've obviously seen many excerpts posted here. It's terribly remiss of me to espouse some knowledge of the case without comprehensive reading, I understand that, but so be it.
Having said that, I read Amaral's book and thought it was rubbish.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Erngath on October 29, 2019, 05:06:55 PM
No. For fear of swelling the McCann coffers. Joking. No, I haven't. I'll be honest, I don't think I'll be able to stop laughing. I've obviously seen many excerpts posted here. It's terribly remiss of me to espouse some knowledge of the case without comprehensive reading, I understand that, but so be it.
Having said that, I read Amaral's book and thought it was rubbish.

I have read Kate's book, still have it.
I didn't find anything funny, nor screamingly objectionable as in Tweedledum/Tweedlee/ plummy voice/reference to genitilia etc.
Perhaps I should study it further.

Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: jassi on October 29, 2019, 05:10:03 PM
I have read Kate's book, still have it.
I didn't find anything funny, nor screamingly objectionable as in Tweedledum/Tweedlee/ plummy voice/reference to genitilia etc.
Perhaps I should study it further.


Now that's what I call above and beyond the call of duty
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 29, 2019, 05:19:08 PM
Mad and nutty used to describe the mentally ill.  She's lucky it fell under the radar. 

https://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11064.msg558772#msg558772
Nope, that won’t do.  Try again, highlighting specifically where she refers to mentally ill people as mad. 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 29, 2019, 05:22:43 PM
You stating I have misunderstood something doesn't make it so.

Why would a qualified medi doctor and former GP describe theories sent to her in confidence and good faith by the mentally ill as 'nutty'?
Because they are?  Since when has “nutty” been an offensive term?  Are you mentally ill or just expressing faux indignation on behalf of those who are?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 29, 2019, 05:28:18 PM
Yeh, I've bought many books from Amazon, it's great. I've also never left a review. Which sort of reinforces my point - a certain demographic will be moved to buy the book, then subsequently leave any review. I have no data to support this, but the I assume the overwhelming majority of sceptics won't buy it, for fear of swelling the McCann coffers - so the review data is automatically biased and tainted.
How so? 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: The General on October 29, 2019, 05:33:52 PM
How so?
You mean why do I think we can't rely on the reviews?
As I said, the very fact that a certain person, in the main, will buy the book from a relatively specific demographic - female, middle-aged, supporter, mother / maternal - skews the data.
I dare say the same is at play with George R. R. Martin's reviews - his fans are skewing the data because they all think all the books are amazing, whether they are or not.
It's a barometer, granted, but I wouldn't hang a hat on it. I haven't even factored in the endemic fraudulence of most online review mechanisms.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 29, 2019, 05:38:51 PM
You mean why do I think we can't rely on the reviews?
As I said, the very fact that a certain person, in the main, will buy the book from a relatively specific demographic - female, middle-aged, supporter, mother / maternal - skews the data.
I dare say the same is at play with George R. R. Martin's reviews - his fans are skewing the data because they all think all the books are amazing, whether they are or not.
It's a barometer, granted, but I wouldn't hang a hat on it. I haven't even factored in the endemic fraudulence of most online review mechanisms.
Except that this book received hundreds of reviews by individuals determined to rubbish it before they’d even read it.  I saw this with my own eyes, as the clarion call went out around Scepticland on day of publishing to go to Amazon to leave a one star review.  So yes, you’re right in one respect, the reviews for this particular book cannot be trusted because many of them were left by those engaged in a hate campaign against the McCanns.  A similar thing happened to the Summers and Swan book which I don’t suppose you’ve read either as it wouldn’t help to reinforce your biased views. 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Erngath on October 29, 2019, 05:39:34 PM

Now that's what I call above and beyond the call of duty

There are some here who seem to be working towards a Master's degree in the study of said book.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 29, 2019, 05:45:45 PM
Yes
You're guessing at best.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 29, 2019, 05:52:08 PM
There are some here who seem to be working towards a Master's degree in the study of said book.
I’ll say, and the funny thing is, it’s most devoted schooars are all of the sceptic persuasion, or at least of the “Kate’s book is a pack if lies and full of hatred of the mentally ill” persuasion.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: The General on October 29, 2019, 05:53:43 PM
Except that this book received hundreds of reviews by individuals determined to rubbish it before they’d even read it.  I saw this with my own eyes, as the clarion call went out around Scepticland on day of publishing to go to Amazon to leave a one star review.  So yes, you’re right in one respect, the reviews for this particular book cannot be trusted because many of them were left by those engaged in a hate campaign against the McCanns.  A similar thing happened to the Summers and Swan book which I don’t suppose you’ve read either as it wouldn’t help to reinforce your biased views.
This clarion call seems to have had little impact then, given this overwhelmingly positive review set.
I stand by my assertion that most online review mechanisms are fundamentally flawed and in many different ways.
Summer and Swan? If the Netflix documentary is any indicator, then I wouldn't get to the end of that either (short attention span, low patience threshold)
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 29, 2019, 05:56:42 PM
You're guessing at best.
No Kate confirms it... It's in hollys quote.. Read it

 goes into the 'Nutty' box.  We must assume that most of these letters, though not necessarily all of them, are sent by people suffering from mental
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 29, 2019, 06:15:07 PM
This clarion call seems to have had little impact then, given this overwhelmingly positive review set.
I stand by my assertion that most online review mechanisms are fundamentally flawed and in many different ways.
Summer and Swan? If the Netflix documentary is any indicator, then I wouldn't get to the end of that either (short attention span, low patience threshold)
The hate campaign was certainly more effective with the Summers and Swan book, I guess because it sold in fewer numbers than Kate’s so had fewer genuine reviews.  It’s not a bad book at all, it brings much of the detail together in one place, it just really upsets some people who just can’t get their heads around the idea that the McCanns did not toss their child’s body in the garbage.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 29, 2019, 06:16:41 PM
This clarion call seems to have had little impact then, given this overwhelmingly positive review set.
I stand by my assertion that most online review mechanisms are fundamentally flawed and in many different ways.
Summer and Swan? If the Netflix documentary is any indicator, then I wouldn't get to the end of that either (short attention span, low patience threshold)

There a flaw in your reasoning.. If it was true all books would have a 4 or 5 star, rating.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 29, 2019, 06:33:10 PM
No Kate confirms it... It's in hollys quote.. Read it

 goes into the 'Nutty' box.  We must assume that most of these letters, though not necessarily all of them, are sent by people suffering from mental
Kate was guessing (assuming) and so were you.  You agreed with the statement/question: "So some sane people sent some nutty ones?"  An assumption is a type of guess isn't it?

I wonder what she thought of the Prank Theory? 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: The General on October 29, 2019, 06:33:59 PM
There a flaw in your reasoning.. If it was true all books would have a 4 or 5 star, rating.
....and that, Davros, is what they call in chess 'Yahtzee'.
Not necessarily, if a book only has 5 reviews, all from family members of the author - it's got 5 stars, must be amazing.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 29, 2019, 06:35:04 PM
Kate was guessing (assuming) and so were you.  You agreed with the statement/question: "So some sane people sent some nutty ones?"  An assumption is a type of guess isn't it?

I wonder what she thought of the Prank Theory?
Def one for the nutty bin
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 29, 2019, 06:35:54 PM
....and that, Davros, is what they call in chess 'Yahtzee'.
Not necessarily, if a book only has 5 reviews, all from family members of the author - it's got 5 stars, must be amazing.
They must have a happy family!
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 29, 2019, 06:37:55 PM
Kate was guessing (assuming) and so were you.  You agreed with the statement/question: "So some sane people sent some nutty ones?"  An assumption is a type of guess isn't it?

I wonder what she thought of the Prank Theory?

I'm commenting on kates opinion... She didn't assume all the nutty ones came from mentally I'll... That's not a guess.. It's kates opinion
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 29, 2019, 06:49:12 PM
I'm commenting on kates opinion... She didn't assume all the nutty ones came from mentally I'll... That's not a guess.. It's kates opinion
"So some sane people sent some nutty ones?"  Were they Kate's words?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 29, 2019, 06:54:41 PM
"So some sane people sent some nutty ones?"  Were they Kate's words?
I'm really not bothered rob... It's of no real importance
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 29, 2019, 07:02:35 PM
I'm really not bothered rob... It's of no real importance
Fair enough. At least I was right!
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Erngath on October 29, 2019, 07:04:57 PM
I'm really not bothered rob... It's of no real importance

Indeed.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: The General on October 29, 2019, 07:10:35 PM
Fair enough. At least I was right!
Rob and The General share a virtual, online exploding fist bump, thus deposing Davros from his virtual, online perch. [Davros slinks back to his hermetically sealed life-chamber to recharge his brain, vowing vengeance on his two virtual,online nemeses, 'I'll get you The General, I'll get you Robittybobitty, see if I don't....mwuhahahahahahahaha....haha....ahem.....']


Is this on topic?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Erngath on October 29, 2019, 07:11:33 PM
Rob and The General share a virtual, online exploding fist bump, thus deposing Davros from his virtual, online perch. [Davros slinks back to his hermetically sealed life-chamber to recharge his brain, vowing vengeance on his two virtual,online nemeses, 'I'll get you The General, I'll get you Robittybobitty, see if I don't....mwuhahahahahahahaha....haha....ahem.....']


Is this on topic?

No.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: The General on October 29, 2019, 07:13:48 PM
No.
Yeh, thought not.
I've reported myself.
And lopped off a digit.

....soooooo, Kate's book. Wow, 4 stars, eh? Slightly less than The Koran.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 29, 2019, 07:16:20 PM
Rob and The General share a virtual, online exploding fist bump, thus deposing Davros from his virtual, online perch. [Davros slinks back to his hermetically sealed life-chamber to recharge his brain, vowing vengeance on his two virtual,online nemeses, 'I'll get you The General, I'll get you Robittybobitty, see if I don't....mwuhahahahahahahaha....haha....ahem.....']


Is this on topic?
Slightly as Kate did mention in her book what she does with correspondence from nutters.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 29, 2019, 07:21:02 PM
Yeh, thought not.
I've reported myself.
And lopped off a digit.

....soooooo, Kate's book. Wow, 4 stars, eh? Slightly less than The Koran.
Now THAT’S a book I’ve not read.  Any good? 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: The General on October 29, 2019, 07:23:09 PM
Now THAT’S a book I’ve not read.  Any good?
Meh, take it or leave it. Not a page turner. Funny as.......
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 29, 2019, 08:01:53 PM
Meh, take it or leave it. Not a page turner. Funny as.......
two stars then.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on October 29, 2019, 09:35:31 PM
Kate was guessing (assuming) and so were you.  You agreed with the statement/question: "So some sane people sent some nutty ones?"  An assumption is a type of guess isn't it?

I wonder what she thought of the Prank Theory?

Did you not post that on Facefook for her mum to read- ask for feedback. 8(0(*

Yeah, what can one say about the prank theory... hmm   well, I hate to say this but the 'nutty one' having said that; the Genral has pointed out sane people can have their theories chucked in there.

What would they say if someone who had mental health issues came up with the theory of walk and wandered?

The Peter Pan version is better. in out of windows-disappearing to neverland -never to be found. from a 'sane' person.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 29, 2019, 09:53:11 PM
Did you not post that on Facefook for her mum to read- ask for feedback. 8(0(*

Yeah, what can one say about the prank theory... hmm   well, I hate to say this but the 'nutty one' having said that; the Genral has pointed out sane people can have their theories chucked in there.

What would they say if someone who had mental health issues came up with the theory of walk and wandered?

The Peter Pan version is better. in out of windows-disappearing to neverland -never to be found. from a 'sane' person.
Not that many people will agree with you IMO.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on October 29, 2019, 09:59:12 PM
Not that many people will agree with you IMO.

You think?    ?{)(**   

 waits for the name calling...
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Lace on October 30, 2019, 09:09:12 AM
I would put a lot of the tweet messages in a 'nutty' box,  does that mean these people have mental health problems?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: The General on October 30, 2019, 10:13:36 AM
I would put a lot of the tweet messages in a 'nutty' box,  does that mean these people have mental health problems?
Any examples? These 'tweet messages'. Any examples?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Lace on October 30, 2019, 10:29:47 AM
Any examples? These 'tweet messages'. Any examples?


Please delete if against forum rules - 

One of McCanns Tapas friends, the one accused of paedophilia said same thing ...and added that Madeleine  was great fun...McCanns and their friends are all weirdos!!! #mccann


When  were they accused of Paedophilia?   This person twists everything and lies to suit what she wants out there.

All the people who say Madeleine died on the Sunday would be in the 'Nutty' box too.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: The General on October 30, 2019, 10:34:29 AM

Please delete if against forum rules - 

One of McCanns Tapas friends, the one accused of paedophilia said same thing ...and added that Madeleine  was great fun...McCanns and their friends are all weirdos!!! #mccann


When  were they accused of Paedophilia?   This person twists everything and lies to suit what she wants out there.

All the people who say Madeleine died on the Sunday would be in the 'Nutty' box too.
I take it lines 2 and 3 is the tweet message and the rest is your reading of the situation?
Is there a distinction between wrong and nutty? Or are all wrong tweet messages default nutty?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 30, 2019, 11:06:13 AM

Please delete if against forum rules - 

One of McCanns Tapas friends, the one accused of paedophilia said same thing ...and added that Madeleine  was great fun...McCanns and their friends are all weirdos!!! #mccann


When  were they accused of Paedophilia?   This person twists everything and lies to suit what she wants out there.

All the people who say Madeleine died on the Sunday would be in the 'Nutty' box too.
Is that one who kept on and on about Gerry being a free mason still tweeting, or has he bored himself to death yet? #hereshoping
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 30, 2019, 11:08:50 AM
I take it lines 2 and 3 is the tweet message and the rest is your reading of the situation?
Is there a distinction between wrong and nutty? Or are all wrong tweet messages default nutty?
I think where the mental illness comes into it is less in the content of an individual tweet taken out of context but the repetition of propaganda themes and tropes, posted numerous times a day,  day in day out for years and years, to the exclusion of any other subject.  I'm sure there are numerous twitter accounts I could point you in the direction of if you're genuinely interested.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Brietta on October 30, 2019, 11:55:48 AM
I think where the mental illness comes into it is less in the content of an individual tweet taken out of context but the repetition of propaganda themes and tropes, posted numerous times a day,  day in day out for years and years, to the exclusion of any other subject.  I'm sure there are numerous twitter accounts I could point you in the direction of if you're genuinely interested.
What you describe is a technique not exclusive to twitter.  I think it is apparent throughout the internet wherever Madeleine McCann's name is mentioned.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: The General on October 30, 2019, 12:25:40 PM
What you describe is a technique not exclusive to twitter.  I think it is apparent throughout the internet wherever Madeleine McCann's name is mentioned.
Yeh ditto Katie Hopkins, Gareth Gates, Harvey Price, anyone remotely in the public eye. Doesnae make it right.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 30, 2019, 12:34:19 PM
It begs the question - is the continual, daily expression online of hatred of specific celebrities or people in the news, spreading propaganda and lies (such as photoshopped pics etc) about individuals on a very regular basis and trolling generally a mental illness or at least a symptom of one? 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Brietta on October 30, 2019, 12:41:19 PM
It begs the question - is the continual, daily expression online of hatred of specific celebrities or people in the news, spreading propaganda and lies (such as photoshopped pics etc) about individuals on a very regular basis and trolling generally a mental illness or at least a symptom of one?

I think it is worth giving the situation some serious thought.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: The General on October 30, 2019, 01:02:25 PM
It begs the question - is the continual, daily expression online of hatred of specific celebrities or people in the news, spreading propaganda and lies (such as photoshopped pics etc) about individuals on a very regular basis and trolling generally a mental illness or at least a symptom of one?
In the main, no. It's a 21st century version of Angry from Wealdstone, except it's infinitely more accessible. Was Angry from Wealdstone 'nutty', or just misguided / interested / frustrated / jealous / lacking other outlets? Probably. What's important to one is irrelevant to another.
There will be some total cranks interested in all manner of subjects, some of whom just have a pathological hatred of their chosen bete noire. For example, I hate Davros with an irrational disdain that's incalculable. He's my arch-nemesis; my itchy to his scratchy. Like those two dudes on Highlander, kicking each other's arses throughout time first with a rock or something, then with a tazer in a small flat above a Nisa store in Croyden.

Some people hate Gerry and Kate McCann - they're not all mad, not......all.......mad.......not.....all....m
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 30, 2019, 01:07:30 PM
In the main, no. It's a 21st century version of Angry from Wealdstone, except it's infinitely more accessible. Was Angry from Wealdstone 'nutty', or just misguided / interested / frustrated / jealous / lacking other outlets? Probably. What's important to one is irrelevant to another.
There will be some total cranks interested in all manner of subjects, some of whom just have a pathological hatred of their chosen bete noire. For example, I hate Davros with an irrational disdain that's incalculable. He's my arch-nemesis; my itchy to his scratchy. Like those two dudes on Highlander, kicking each other's arses throughout time first with a rock or something, then with a tazer in a small flat above a Nisa store in Croyden.

Some people hate Gerry and Kate McCann - they're not all mad, not......all.......mad.......not.....all....m
No it's not like Angry from Wealdstone, unless you're suggesting that this 20th Century construct spent all day every day writing angry letters to the papers about some celebrity he hated, or daubed hateful grafftiti on the walls of the local pubs on a daily basis?  This is about regularity, about spending a large part of your day churning out online propaganda designed to influence others to suspect and / or despise people in the public eye.  Maybe the internet has simply helped turned Angry from Wealdstone into Hopping Mad from Wealdstone Mental Institution.    It's perfectly acceptable and even understandable to hate Gerry and Kate McCann but to spend such a lot of one's time and energy being hateful about them is not normal IMO. 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Lace on October 30, 2019, 01:09:48 PM
In the main, no. It's a 21st century version of Angry from Wealdstone, except it's infinitely more accessible. Was Angry from Wealdstone 'nutty', or just misguided / interested / frustrated / jealous / lacking other outlets? Probably. What's important to one is irrelevant to another.
There will be some total cranks interested in all manner of subjects, some of whom just have a pathological hatred of their chosen bete noire. For example, I hate Davros with an irrational disdain that's incalculable. He's my arch-nemesis; my itchy to his scratchy. Like those two dudes on Highlander, kicking each other's arses throughout time first with a rock or something, then with a tazer in a small flat above a Nisa store in Croyden.

Some people hate Gerry and Kate McCann - they're not all mad, not......all.......mad.......not.....all....m

It's their posts that are mad not them.  They have mad ideas.   
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 30, 2019, 01:13:56 PM
In the main, no. It's a 21st century version of Angry from Wealdstone, except it's infinitely more accessible. Was Angry from Wealdstone 'nutty', or just misguided / interested / frustrated / jealous / lacking other outlets? Probably. What's important to one is irrelevant to another.
There will be some total cranks interested in all manner of subjects, some of whom just have a pathological hatred of their chosen bete noire. For example, I hate Davros with an irrational disdain that's incalculable. He's my arch-nemesis; my itchy to his scratchy. Like those two dudes on Highlander, kicking each other's arses throughout time first with a rock or something, then with a tazer in a small flat above a Nisa store in Croyden.

Some people hate Gerry and Kate McCann - they're not all mad, not......all.......mad.......not.....all....m
PS: There's a thin line between love and hate as Chrissie Hynde once sang.  Just sayin'... 8(>((
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: The General on October 30, 2019, 01:22:19 PM
No it's not like Angry from Wealdstone, unless you're suggesting that this 20th Century construct spent all day every day writing angry letters to the papers about some celebrity he hated, or daubed hateful grafftiti on the walls of the local pubs on a daily basis?  This is about regularity, about spending a large part of your day churning out online propaganda designed to influence others to suspect and / or despise people in the public eye.  Maybe the internet has simply helped turned Angry from Wealdstone into Hopping Mad from Wealdstone Mental Institution.    It's perfectly acceptable and even understandable to hate Gerry and Kate McCann but to spend such a lot of one's time and energy being hateful about them is not normal IMO.
It's all about access. Wealdstone man got fleeting gratification from one letter in 50 being published. Now he gets 50 tweets published automatically. Instant, unending gratification.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 30, 2019, 02:15:05 PM
It's all about access. Wealdstone man got fleeting gratification from one letter in 50 being published. Now he gets 50 tweets published automatically. Instant, unending gratification.
Which IMO is a symptom of a mental illness, a bit like an addiction to porn. 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Brietta on October 30, 2019, 02:25:19 PM
Which IMO is a symptom of a mental illness, a bit like an addiction to porn.

    &%%6 I am mightily impressed by that.

I haven't time to read this now ... Internet Addiction Disorder ... https://www.psycom.net/iadcriteria.html but there actually are recognised conditions.  Wonder if we will recognise any we suffer from?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: G-Unit on October 30, 2019, 03:55:33 PM
Which IMO is a symptom of a mental illness, a bit like an addiction to porn.

There is no such thing as a mental illness named 'addiction to porn' imo.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 30, 2019, 04:00:04 PM
There is no such thing as a mental illness named 'addiction to porn' imo.

what qualification do you have to make that statement
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 30, 2019, 04:01:13 PM
There is no such thing as a mental illness named 'addiction to porn' imo.
Did I say there was?  Try reading the post again and get back to me.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: G-Unit on October 30, 2019, 04:17:40 PM
what qualification do you have to make that statement

Neither the DSM-5 nor the ICD-11 classify pornography as a mental disorder or addiction.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pornography_addiction
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on October 30, 2019, 04:40:20 PM
Neither the DSM-5 nor the ICD-11 classify pornography as a mental disorder or addiction.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pornography_addiction

The fact remains - working in the NHS caling people names is a no no. Especially those with mental illness.

Addictions are behavioral and can be treated.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 30, 2019, 04:52:47 PM
The fact remains - working in the NHS caling people names is a no no. Especially those with mental illness.

Addictions are behavioral and can be treated.

But Kate didn't call anyone nutty
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: The General on October 30, 2019, 05:13:02 PM
But Kate didn't call anyone nutty

What a nutty assertion.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 30, 2019, 05:39:43 PM
Where does all this leave the “Nutty Professor” franchise?  Have they re-named it “The Mentally Ill Professor”?   It suddenly doesn’t seem like a barrel of cheap laughs anymore.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Lace on October 30, 2019, 05:42:37 PM
The fact remains - working in the NHS caling people names is a no no. Especially those with mental illness.

Addictions are behavioral and can be treated.

The messages were nutty not the people sending them.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 30, 2019, 06:21:28 PM
The messages were nutty not the people sending them.
Well not all of them.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: G-Unit on October 30, 2019, 07:34:00 PM
The messages were nutty not the people sending them.

Really?


And then there are those it is impossible to be sure about – the folk whose correspondence goes into the ‘Nutty’ box. We must assume that most of these letters, though not necessarily all of them, are sent by people suffering
from mental illness,
and I don’t want to make light of their problems. Indeed, it is concerning, if our mail is anything to go by, how many vulnerable individuals there seem to be out there with psychiatric conditions that remain either undiagnosed or inadequately treated. [madeleine]
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 30, 2019, 08:07:34 PM
Really?


And then there are those it is impossible to be sure about – the folk whose correspondence goes into the ‘Nutty’ box. We must assume that most of these letters, though not necessarily all of them, are sent by people suffering
from mental illness,
and I don’t want to make light of their problems. Indeed, it is concerning, if our mail is anything to go by, how many vulnerable individuals there seem to be out there with psychiatric conditions that remain either undiagnosed or inadequately treated. [madeleine]
Congratulations for proving that she did not call anyone nutty.  She calls their correspondence nutty and themselves mentally ill. clear as day. 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: The General on October 30, 2019, 08:12:49 PM
The messages were nutty not the people sending them.
Prove it
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: John on October 30, 2019, 09:09:00 PM
Good evening everyone, hope you are all well.

A gentle reminder to keep debates civil please and to refrain from making condescending or unconstructive remarks towards fellow users. TY
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: The General on October 30, 2019, 09:20:55 PM
Look what you stated Davros.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 30, 2019, 10:01:14 PM
Congratulations for proving that she did not call anyone nutty.  She calls their correspondence nutty and themselves mentally ill. clear as day.
Trying to sort that one out is driving me nutty.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 30, 2019, 10:03:21 PM
Trying to sort that one out is driving me nutty.
It’s really very simple, I’m not sure why so many people are struggling with it.  Perhaps it’s down to sheer determination to see Kate in a bad light in every conceivable way.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Angelo222 on October 30, 2019, 10:23:19 PM
It’s really very simple, I’m not sure why so many people are struggling with it.  Perhaps it’s down to sheer determination to see Kate in a bad light in every conceivable way.

I think she managed that all on her own with her unpleasant comments towards police officers who were only doing their job.  Who the bloody hell does she think she is?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 30, 2019, 10:44:40 PM
I think she managed that all on her own with her unpleasant comments towards police officers who were only doing their job.  Who the bloody hell does she think she is?
The mother of a missing child who felt badly let down by incompetent clueless coppers probably.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Angelo222 on October 30, 2019, 10:51:46 PM
The mother of a missing child who felt badly let down by incompetent clueless coppers probably.

It's not surprising that the police were confused, GM couldn't even remember how he got into the apartment.  How much did he have to drink that night?

Curiously, KM never mentioned the praying Arab event in the apartment in her paperback, could that be because she forgot or because it was an embarrassing lack of control?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 30, 2019, 11:13:34 PM
It's not surprising that the police were confused, GM couldn't even remember how he got into the apartment.  How much did he have to drink that night?

Curiously, KM never mentioned the praying Arab event in the apartment in her paperback, could that be because she forgot or because it was an embarrassing lack of control?

After all we've read about the PJ I don't think you can blame the mccanns for the PJ being totally clueless
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 30, 2019, 11:24:10 PM
It's not surprising that the police were confused, GM couldn't even remember how he got into the apartment.  How much did he have to drink that night?

Curiously, KM never mentioned the praying Arab event in the apartment in her paperback, could that be because she forgot or because it was an embarrassing lack of control?
Or could it be that she didn’t consider that she was praying like an Arab at all?  Why would she be embarrassed to mention it?  She mentions other “embarrassing lack of control” moments.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 30, 2019, 11:26:53 PM
Poor lickle policemen all confused by those nasty, naughty McCanns, I mean don’t they receive any training in how to police in Portugal?  Or can any fool put on a uniform and stand around ineffectually chewing gum and scratching arse?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Angelo222 on October 30, 2019, 11:36:32 PM
Poor lickle policemen all confused by those nasty, naughty McCanns, I mean don’t they receive any training in how to police in Portugal?  Or can any fool put on a uniform and stand around ineffectually chewing gum and scratching arse?

It won't work VS, everyone knows the police were totally professional in the face of stupidity by an English couple who apparently didn't read the guide to best childminding.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 30, 2019, 11:51:41 PM
It won't work VS, everyone knows the police were totally professional in the face of stupidity by an English couple who apparently didn't read the guide to best childminding.
Everyone knows do they?  Yeah right.  Everyone knows the Portuguese police conducted a piss poor investigation right from the start until Amaral was booted off.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 30, 2019, 11:54:59 PM
I might have to read the book again!
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 31, 2019, 08:37:53 AM
Everyone knows do they?  Yeah right.  Everyone knows the Portuguese police conducted a piss poor investigation right from the start until Amaral was booted off.

What in your opinion would pass muster?


Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 31, 2019, 08:46:15 AM
What in your opinion would pass muster?
A sense of urgency, coupled with a completely open mind, plenty of highly trained resources, efficient filing systems and cross referencing, rapid pursuance of credible leads, proper note and statement taking (audio recordings at the very least), professional translators, loads more but I’m getting ready right now...
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Angelo222 on October 31, 2019, 09:01:38 AM
A sense of urgency, coupled with a completely open mind, plenty of highly trained resources, efficient filing systems and cross referencing, rapid pursuance of credible leads, proper note and statement taking (audio recordings at the very least), professional translators, loads more but I’m getting ready right now...

You are attempting to compare the Met with its huge budget with a small region in Portugal where crime is rare. IMO the PJ did an extraordinary job in very difficult circumstances with limited funds. The McCanns and their associated created the circus which ultimately engulfed the entire investigation.  The illegal conduct by certain individuals associated with the McCanns post disappearance was appalling imo and I for one would still like to see them prosecuted for attempting to pervert the course of justice.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: barrier on October 31, 2019, 09:04:48 AM
You are attempting to compare the Met with its huge budget with a small region in Portugal where crime is rare. IMO the PJ did an extraordinary job in very difficult circumstances with limited funds.

The MET still haven't come up with the answer that contradicts the initial investigation either.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 31, 2019, 09:05:19 AM
A sense of urgency, coupled with a completely open mind, plenty of highly trained resources, efficient filing systems and cross referencing, rapid pursuance of credible leads, proper note and statement taking (audio recordings at the very least), professional translators, loads more but I’m getting ready right now...

Assuming PJ were lacking in the above areas what, if anything, has prevented the private detective agencies and MET catching up? 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Erngath on October 31, 2019, 09:05:38 AM
You are attempting to compare the Met with its huge budget with a small region in Portugal where crime is rare. IMO the PJ did an extraordinary job in very difficult circumstances with limited funds.


Many of the suggestion made by VS, require no huge budget but just proper policing and organisational skills and experience..
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 31, 2019, 09:08:09 AM
Assuming PJ were lacking in the above areas what, if anything, has prevented the private detective agencies and MET catching up?
Distance in terms of hours from the time Madeleine went missing would be the primary hurdle imo.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 31, 2019, 09:10:55 AM
You are attempting to compare the Met with its huge budget with a small region in Portugal where crime is rare. IMO the PJ did an extraordinary job in very difficult circumstances with limited funds. The McCanns and their associated created the circus which ultimately engulfed the entire investigation.  The illegal conduct by certain individuals associated with the McCanns post disappearance was appalling imo and I for one would still like to see them prosecuted for attempting to pervert the course of justice.
Yeah, just how is that campaign of yours going?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Brietta on October 31, 2019, 09:12:07 AM
You are attempting to compare the Met with its huge budget with a small region in Portugal where crime is rare. IMO the PJ did an extraordinary job in very difficult circumstances with limited funds.

I don't think you've got that right Angelo.  There was a problem with burglaries {two in the apartments immediately above 5A and one in the ground floor apartment in the next block mirroring the McCann apartment} and there was the problem of home invasions when assaults were carried out on children for which Euclides Monteiro was investigated by the police.  https://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/madeleine-suspect-was-questioned-about-sex-assaults-30242298.html
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Angelo222 on October 31, 2019, 09:12:29 AM
Assuming PJ were lacking in the above areas what, if anything, has prevented the private detective agencies and MET catching up?

The biggest hurdle was the behaviour of the parents themselves which imo did very little to assist the investigation. The McCanns were terrified that they would be prosecuted for child neglect which would have destroyed their respective careers in the medical profession. As it was, they got away with a slap on the wrists and a regular check on the twins by English social services.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Brietta on October 31, 2019, 09:14:16 AM
The MET still haven't come up with the answer that contradicts the initial investigation either.
You just do not know that, do you?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 31, 2019, 09:15:38 AM

Many of the suggestion made by VS, require no huge budget but just proper policing and organisational skills and experience..
Exactly, plus some collective IQs in the 120+ bracket would have helped.  Judging from the level of intelligence on display in his book and during his tenure on the case I would say Amaral was somewhat lacking in that department, same with some of his colleagues  #notthebrighteststarinthefirmament
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 31, 2019, 09:17:12 AM
The biggest hurdle was the behaviour of the parents themselves which imo did very little to assist the investigation. The McCanns were terrified that they would be prosecuted for child neglect which would have destroyed their respective careers in the medical profession. As it was, they got away with a slap on the wrists and a regular check on the twins by English social services.

The biggest problem was the failure of the pj to understand the evidence in thr case... Failure to listen to the experts.
A neglect conviction would not have affected the medical careers of the mccanns
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 31, 2019, 09:17:17 AM
The biggest hurdle was the behaviour of the parents themselves which imo did very little to assist the investigation. The McCanns were terrified that they would be prosecuted for child neglect which would have destroyed their respective careers in the medical profession. As it was, they got away with a slap on the wrists and a regular check on the twins by English social services.
You get today’s special award for dedicated services to victim blaming 2019, congratulations. 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Wonderfulspam on October 31, 2019, 09:32:48 AM
You get today’s special award for dedicated services to victim blaming 2019, congratulations.

That's assuming the McCanns are victims.

I'm yet to see any proof that they didn't do it.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Brietta on October 31, 2019, 09:40:22 AM
The biggest hurdle was the behaviour of the parents themselves which imo did very little to assist the investigation. The McCanns were terrified that they would be prosecuted for child neglect which would have destroyed their respective careers in the medical profession. As it was, they got away with a slap on the wrists and a regular check on the twins by English social services.

I think the biggest hurdle which arises time after time in Kate's book was the difficulty of communication.

For example, initially I thought the influence brought to the case by Silvia Batista was a negative one. I now think that was due to misunderstanding or misuse of her skills by the PJ. 
Kate McCann speaks very warmly of her in her book as being an excellent person who acted to the best of her ability at an horrific time.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 31, 2019, 09:43:27 AM
Exactly, plus some collective IQs in the 120+ bracket would have helped.  Judging from the level of intelligence on display in his book and during his tenure on the case I would say Amaral was somewhat lacking in that department, same with some of his colleagues  #notthebrighteststarinthefirmament

On paper at least the McCanns must be above average in intelligence and yet it didn't prevent them from making a stupid decision which had disastrous consequences for their daughter. 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: G-Unit on October 31, 2019, 09:47:19 AM
You are attempting to compare the Met with its huge budget with a small region in Portugal where crime is rare. IMO the PJ did an extraordinary job in very difficult circumstances with limited funds. The McCanns and their associated created the circus which ultimately engulfed the entire investigation.  The illegal conduct by certain individuals associated with the McCanns post disappearance was appalling imo and I for one would still like to see them prosecuted for attempting to pervert the course of justice.

The unacceptable behaviour of the parents in conducting a media campaign resulting in thousands of time-wasting sightings did more damage than anything the PJ did. Had the crime occured in the UK the police would have stopped that from happening in my opinion. I think OG have stopped it now, but it took a while.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Brietta on October 31, 2019, 10:15:40 AM
On paper at least the McCanns must be above average in intelligence and yet it didn't prevent them from making a stupid decision which had disastrous consequences for their daughter.

I take it you have read Kate's book??  If you have you will see that the McCanns worked out long, long ago that they made a stupid decision which they will have to live with forever.

Why do you feel the need to shoulder their burden by constant repetition?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 31, 2019, 10:20:16 AM
That's assuming the McCanns are victims.

I'm yet to see any proof that they didn't do it.
Perhaps you should get down to Specsavers then.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 31, 2019, 10:21:58 AM
The unacceptable behaviour of the parents in conducting a media campaign resulting in thousands of time-wasting sightings did more damage than anything the PJ did. Had the crime occured in the UK the police would have stopped that from happening in my opinion. I think OG have stopped it now, but it took a while.
What gives you that impression?  Don’t the police in this country hold regular public appeals using grieving parents in news bulletins appealing for the safe return of their children anymore?  What about Crimewatch? 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 31, 2019, 10:22:16 AM
I take it you have read Kate's book??  If you have you will see that the McCanns worked out long, long ago that they made a stupid decision which they will have to live with forever.

Why do you feel the need to shoulder their burden by constant repetition?

Why do some feel the need to constantly criticise and denigrate PJ? 



Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Brietta on October 31, 2019, 10:22:44 AM
The unacceptable behaviour of the parents in conducting a media campaign resulting in thousands of time-wasting sightings did more damage than anything the PJ did. Had the crime occured in the UK the police would have stopped that from happening in my opinion. I think OG have stopped it now, but it took a while.

You will note from Kate's book that the reason the McCanns had to conduct a media campaign was that no-one was looking for Madeleine.

Scotland Yard and the Judicial Police did indeed halt the necessity for the McCann investigations by the simple expediency of reopening Madeleine's case.  Very simple really when one thinks about it.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 31, 2019, 10:24:33 AM
You will note from Kate's book that the reason the McCanns had to conduct a media campaign was that no-one was looking for Madeleine.

Scotland Yard and the Judicial Police did indeed halt the necessity for the McCann investigations by the simple expediency of reopening Madeleine's case.  Very simple really when one thinks about it.

I thought the McCanns employed several firms of private investigators to look for MM?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: G-Unit on October 31, 2019, 10:25:33 AM
I take it you have read Kate's book??  If you have you will see that the McCanns worked out long, long ago that they made a stupid decision which they will have to live with forever.

Why do you feel the need to shoulder their burden by constant repetition?

The McCanns wilfully ignored the guidlines on childcare, even after they had reason to believe their 'listening system' wasn't working. Their reasons for doing so are not convincing imo.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Brietta on October 31, 2019, 10:27:18 AM
Why do some feel the need to constantly criticise and denigrate PJ?

I am sorry you feel the necessity of making that accusation. 
Might I refer you back to Kate's book, not for a cherry picking exercise, but for some in depth reading which might enable a better understanding of what the families of the missing have no choice but to live with for the rest of their lives.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 31, 2019, 10:28:06 AM
The McCanns wilfully ignored the guidlines on childcare, even after they had reason to believe their 'listening system' wasn't working. Their reasons for doing so are not convincing imo.
Nor are your reasons for continually banging on about it week in week out for 12 years.  We got the message already.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: G-Unit on October 31, 2019, 10:28:44 AM
You will note from Kate's book that the reason the McCanns had to conduct a media campaign was that no-one was looking for Madeleine.

Scotland Yard and the Judicial Police did indeed halt the necessity for the McCann investigations by the simple expediency of reopening Madeleine's case.  Very simple really when one thinks about it.

The McCann's campaign began at around 3am on 4th May 2007, and continued throughout the first PJ investigation.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Brietta on October 31, 2019, 10:29:40 AM
I thought the McCanns employed several firms of private investigators to look for MM?

You might find that information in Kate McCann's book which I believe might be the topic of this particular thread.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: G-Unit on October 31, 2019, 10:31:12 AM
What gives you that impression?  Don’t the police in this country hold regular public appeals using grieving parents in news bulletins appealing for the safe return of their children anymore?  What about Crimewatch?

Organised and controlled by the police.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 31, 2019, 10:32:32 AM
Organised and controlled by the police.
So what unhelpful behaviours specifically are you objecting to from the McCanns in the first investigation, that you think the police in this country would have put a stop to?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Lace on October 31, 2019, 10:32:53 AM
A sense of urgency, coupled with a completely open mind, plenty of highly trained resources, efficient filing systems and cross referencing, rapid pursuance of credible leads, proper note and statement taking (audio recordings at the very least), professional translators, loads more but I’m getting ready right now...

Well  said.   

I would add an understanding of the forensic evidence.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Brietta on October 31, 2019, 10:34:41 AM
The McCanns wilfully ignored the guidlines on childcare, even after they had reason to believe their 'listening system' wasn't working. Their reasons for doing so are not convincing imo.
That is your opinion.  Please tie it in to something which is in the book and therefore on topic.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 31, 2019, 10:36:47 AM
You might find that information in Kate McCann's book which I believe might be the topic of this particular thread.

Do you have any specific dates for when no one was looking for MM as you claimed?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Brietta on October 31, 2019, 10:37:13 AM
The McCann's campaign began at around 3am on 4th May 2007, and continued throughout the first PJ investigation.

Quote supporting your opinion from the book, please, that is the topic of the thread after all.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Lace on October 31, 2019, 10:37:37 AM
The McCanns wilfully ignored the guidlines on childcare, even after they had reason to believe their 'listening system' wasn't working. Their reasons for doing so are not convincing imo.

So does that mean they deserved a poor investigation?   However a child disappears,  it is the Police who are given the job of finding the child.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 31, 2019, 10:40:25 AM
Do you have any specific dates for when no one was looking for MM as you claimed?
About a week after she disappeared the police stopped looking.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Brietta on October 31, 2019, 10:44:32 AM
Do you have any specific dates for when no one was looking for MM as you claimed?
This topic is nothing at all to do with me or my claims. Do read Kate's book for a greater understanding of events which will enable you to draw your own conclusions.  The foreword is interesting giving reasons for the book being written ... easy to work out from thereon in I should imagine.
Also by doing so there is a slight chance of staying on topic.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 31, 2019, 10:46:26 AM
About a week after she disappeared the police stopped looking.

Was that before or after RM came on the radar?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: barrier on October 31, 2019, 10:58:34 AM
You just do not know that, do you?

  Nothing's been seen to suggest otherwise.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: barrier on October 31, 2019, 11:04:38 AM
Was that before or after RM came on the radar?

Does the book make any reference to Murat?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 31, 2019, 11:13:50 AM
Does the book make any reference to Murat?

Yes.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: barrier on October 31, 2019, 11:14:27 AM
Yes.

Negatively or in the positive?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Brietta on October 31, 2019, 11:14:35 AM
Does the book make any reference to Murat?

Great ... an On Topic post (or nearly).  Yes she does mention him.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: barrier on October 31, 2019, 11:22:55 AM
Does the book make any reference to Murat?

Yes.

Talking of the meeting in portimao police station?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 31, 2019, 11:36:06 AM
Talking of the meeting in portimao police station?

I've looked at RM in the index which quotes numerous page numbers.  First page 112 talks about RM and the Portimao police station which KM didn't find encouraging as her first impressions of it were "basic and shabby".  Ironically she goes on to point out that the control room was separated from the waiting room by windows and a glass door left ajar. 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 31, 2019, 11:38:14 AM
Negatively or in the positive?

Just for you barrier I will take myself off read the pages and report back forthwith  8((()*/
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: barrier on October 31, 2019, 11:39:10 AM
Just for you barrier I will take myself off read the pages and report back forthwith  8((()*/


Thanks,but i'd be surprised if its positive.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Angelo222 on October 31, 2019, 11:40:53 AM
The biggest problem was the failure of the pj to understand the evidence in thr case... Failure to listen to the experts.
A neglect conviction would not have affected the medical careers of the mccanns

Oh but it certainly would have, no doctor could hold a licence to practise with such a conviction.  As it was, Kate McCann had to give up her career for several years.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 31, 2019, 11:44:32 AM
Oh but it certainly would have, no doctor could hold a licence to practise with such a conviction.  As it was, Kate McCann had to give up her career for several years.

no it wouldnt...you obviously dont know much about GMC regulations
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 31, 2019, 12:19:05 PM

Thanks,but i'd be surprised if its positive.

My take on it is that she has stuck to the facts ie how he initially came to the attention of PJ via the reporter and then the claims of some members of T7 observing him around 5A on 3rd May at a time he said he was at home with his mother.  She claims PJ were feeding her snippets about him eg finding some article about Casanova being a paedophile and to keep daughters locked up.   She concludes PJ were wrong about RM in the same way they wrong about GM and herself. 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 31, 2019, 12:23:34 PM
This topic is nothing at all to do with me or my claims. Do read Kate's book for a greater understanding of events which will enable you to draw your own conclusions.  The foreword is interesting giving reasons for the book being written ... easy to work out from thereon in I should imagine.
Also by doing so there is a slight chance of staying on topic.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11064.msg560130#msg560130
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 31, 2019, 12:34:14 PM
My take on it is that she has stuck to the facts ie how he initially came to the attention of PJ via the reporter and then the claims of some members of T7 observing him around 5A on 3rd May at a time he said he was at home with his mother.  She claims PJ were feeding her snippets about him eg finding some article about Casanova being a paedophile and to keep daughters locked up.   She concludes PJ were wrong about RM in the same way they wrong about GM and herself.

I forgot to add she did say she was irked and felt he was tactless when he remarked how his little girl looked like MM.  She didn't think his daughter could possibly be as beautiful as Madeleine.  P112/13.

 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: G-Unit on October 31, 2019, 12:55:33 PM
So does that mean they deserved a poor investigation?   However a child disappears,  it is the Police who are given the job of finding the child.

The two things are not connected. The parents are completely responsible for their failures and the police for theirs.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Brietta on October 31, 2019, 01:00:32 PM
My take on it is that she has stuck to the facts ie how he initially came to the attention of PJ via the reporter and then the claims of some members of T7 observing him around 5A on 3rd May at a time he said he was at home with his mother.  She claims PJ were feeding her snippets about him eg finding some article about Casanova being a paedophile and to keep daughters locked up.   She concludes PJ were wrong about RM in the same way they wrong about GM and herself.

I think that is a reasonable synopsis of what Kate recalls in her book.  I wonder why the PJ felt compelled to drip poison in her ear about Murat despite as she later found out, they had no case against him?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 31, 2019, 01:04:11 PM
The two things are not connected. The parents are completely responsible for their failures and the police for theirs.

I agree...it could be said that both the McCanns and the initial PJ investigation let Maddie down
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Brietta on October 31, 2019, 01:07:19 PM
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11064.msg560130#msg560130
*%6^
I wonder if you might consider elucidating? You have lost me I'm afraid.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Brietta on October 31, 2019, 01:16:46 PM
The two things are not connected. The parents are completely responsible for their failures and the police for theirs.

If you take another look at what Kate has to say in her book you will see that both she and Gerry are painfully aware of their shortcomings.
One wonders why you feel the necessity to keep reminiscing about it.

Making the comparison with what Goncalo Amaral has to say about events of that period in his book I fail to see the same contrition for his actions.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: G-Unit on October 31, 2019, 01:32:07 PM
I agree...it could be said that both the McCanns and the initial PJ investigation let Maddie down

If the McCanns did what they said they did then it's a fact that they let their daughter down. I'm not so sure about the initial investigation, because no-one with the appropriate knowledge has criticised it.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 31, 2019, 01:39:37 PM
If the McCanns did what they said they did then it's a fact that they let their daughter down. I'm not so sure about the initial investigation, because no-one with the appropriate knowledge has criticised it.

I have enough knowledge that amaral was woefully inept when he claimed he could prove Maddie died in the apartment and her death was covered up... And he tells us his viewd were shared by the rest of the team at the time
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Brietta on October 31, 2019, 01:49:46 PM
If the McCanns did what they said they did then it's a fact that they let their daughter down. I'm not so sure about the initial investigation, because no-one with the appropriate knowledge has criticised it.

There is some mention of the police performance in Kate's book ... don't you consider she has the appropriate knowledge to mention what she experienced.

I think that for a long time when the police investigation was mentioned elsewhere it was paired with 'botched'.  A fair read of the book could point out why that was.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 31, 2019, 02:04:15 PM
There is some mention of the police performance in Kate's book ... don't you consider she has the appropriate knowledge to mention what she experienced.

I think that for a long time when the police investigation was mentioned elsewhere it was paired with 'botched'.  A fair read of the book could point out why that was.

What was she comparing it with? 
 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: ShiningInLuz on October 31, 2019, 02:21:59 PM
There is some mention of the police performance in Kate's book ... don't you consider she has the appropriate knowledge to mention what she experienced.

I think that for a long time when the police investigation was mentioned elsewhere it was paired with 'botched'.  A fair read of the book could point out why that was.

Let's get real.

Newspapers love to describe police investigations as 'botched'.

People who wish a different outcome from formal proceedings often describe them as 'botched'.

I am critical of certain aspects of OG's performance.  Should I, on this basis, describe their whole effort as 'botched'?

'Botched' is a soapbox description straight from the House of Commons, and is best left there.

Obviously IMO.

Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Brietta on October 31, 2019, 02:36:13 PM
What was she comparing it with?

Did I mention that Kate had compared it with anything?  Perhaps she did but having read the book yourself I thought you might have drawn your own conclusions for discussion rather than relying on my anecdotes for the starting point.
Like for example being unable either in Britain or in Portugal to run a Crimewatch style programme in cooperation with the police to catch the interest of holidaymakers who had returned home and who might have information, because of restrictions imposed by Portuguese law.
I can also state for a certainty that she was scathing about the illegal leaks emanating from the police which plagued the investigation.

There actually is a mine of information contained within the pages of Kates book ... so sad really that a minority of members appear only to be interested in the few words which sceptics have chosen to define it; or what a third party thinks rather than relying on informing themselves straight from the source.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 31, 2019, 02:53:20 PM
Did I mention that Kate had compared it with anything?  Perhaps she did but having read the book yourself I thought you might have drawn your own conclusions for discussion rather than relying on my anecdotes for the starting point.
Like for example being unable either in Britain or in Portugal to run a Crimewatch style programme in cooperation with the police to catch the interest of holidaymakers who had returned home and who might have information, because of restrictions imposed by Portuguese law.
I can also state for a certainty that she was scathing about the illegal leaks emanating from the police which plagued the investigation.

There actually is a mine of information contained within the pages of Kates book ... so sad really that a minority of members appear only to be interested in the few words which sceptics have chosen to define it; or what a third party thinks rather than relying on informing themselves straight from the source.

No you didn't mention that KM compared the investigation into MM's disappearance with other investigations that's why I asked.  For someone to say this, that or the other was good, bad or indifferent they surely must have some reference point in the first instance? 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Brietta on October 31, 2019, 02:54:42 PM
Let's get real.

Newspapers love to describe police investigations as 'botched'.

People who wish a different outcome from formal proceedings often describe them as 'botched'.

I am critical of certain aspects of OG's performance.  Should I, on this basis, describe their whole effort as 'botched'?

'Botched' is a soapbox description straight from the House of Commons, and is best left there.

Obviously IMO.

Did Kate in her book describe the police procedures for when a child goes missing as being 'textbook'?  Would you be content if the same procedures she describes were to be followed if one of your relatives went missing today or might you express concern if they were?

The dictionary defines 'Botch' as being Late Middle English ... so whether that, House of Commons or soapbox ... the meaning doesn't change from being a badly or carelessly carried out task.
My reading of the police investigation into Madeleine's disappearance indicates to me that 'botched' describes it appropriately.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: ShiningInLuz on October 31, 2019, 03:06:27 PM
Did Kate in her book describe the police procedures for when a child goes missing as being 'textbook'?  Would you be content if the same procedures she describes were to be followed if one of your relatives went missing today or might you express concern if they were?

The dictionary defines 'Botch' as being Late Middle English ... so whether that, House of Commons or soapbox ... the meaning doesn't change from being a badly or carelessly carried out task.
My reading of the police investigation into Madeleine's disappearance indicates to me that 'botched' describes it appropriately.

Then what you are doing is opening the door for others to express their opinions is similar terminology.

As in the McCanns 'botched' their handling of the police and press no later than 4 May.

It's stuff straight from the gutter.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Brietta on October 31, 2019, 03:13:32 PM
No you didn't mention that KM compared the investigation into MM's disappearance with other investigations that's why I asked.  For someone to say this, that or the other was good, bad or indifferent they surely must have some reference point in the first instance?

Why on earth do you think Kate should be obliged to compare Madeleine's disappearance with anything?  What happened to the McCann family was in my opinion unique to them and unique to Madeleine.

I am using the same reference point as you which on this thread is Kate McCann's book in which she describes the kidnap of her daughter and the aftermath.
I don't think you and I appear to be reading the same book.
I have read and understood the whole book description by an individual describing the most traumatic and unthinkable event of her life and the lives of her family without compartmentalising  "good, bad or indifferent".

Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Brietta on October 31, 2019, 03:23:32 PM
Then what you are doing is opening the door for others to express their opinions is similar terminology.

As in the McCanns 'botched' their handling of the police and press no later than 4 May.

It's stuff straight from the gutter.

Kate's book does indeed make many references to all aspects of the press ... but I think the interesting points you raise which although discussed ad nauseam here and elsewhere would be well worth you opening the subject on its own thread which will give it the advantage of at least being On Topic.

Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: ShiningInLuz on October 31, 2019, 03:30:55 PM
Kate's book does indeed make many references to all aspects of the press ... but I think the interesting points you raise which although discussed ad nauseam here and elsewhere would be well worth you opening the subject on its own thread which will give it the advantage of at least being On Topic.

Kate's book covers the initial response, so I was definitely on topic.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 31, 2019, 03:34:28 PM
Why on earth do you think Kate should be obliged to compare Madeleine's disappearance with anything?  What happened to the McCann family was in my opinion unique to them and unique to Madeleine.

I am using the same reference point as you which on this thread is Kate McCann's book in which she describes the kidnap of her daughter and the aftermath.
I don't think you and I appear to be reading the same book.
I have read and understood the whole book description by an individual describing the most traumatic and unthinkable event of her life and the lives of her family without compartmentalising  "good, bad or indifferent".

But she is critical of officers, the investigation and even the appearance of the police station and yet we have no idea of her reference points. 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: The General on October 31, 2019, 03:41:51 PM
Does it mention anywhere in Kate's bestseller that they botched their own child care arrangements, or lack of them?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 31, 2019, 04:00:47 PM
Does it mention anywhere in Kate's bestseller that they botched their own child care arrangements, or lack of them?

I can only recall the following:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11076.msg559885#msg559885

Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Brietta on October 31, 2019, 04:15:59 PM
Kate's book covers the initial response, so I was definitely on topic.

No need to get all defensive since I accused you of no such thing. If it is your opinion your post was in reference to Kate's book, fine by me.  However the risk of deflection would most certainly be reduced were you to follow my suggestion bearing in mind the thrust of your post which if I remember correctly, was press abuse.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Brietta on October 31, 2019, 04:27:05 PM
But she is critical of officers, the investigation and even the appearance of the police station and yet we have no idea of her reference points.
I rather doubt that Kate McCann or any of her party had much familiarity with the inside of police stations which are probably not the most inviting of environments at the best of times.

She was writing a memoir describing events, people and places.  I think therefore her description of the police station is just that ... a description.

I must say I am rather intrigued with the style of your critique.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: ShiningInLuz on October 31, 2019, 04:30:33 PM
No need to get all defensive since I accused you of no such thing. If it is your opinion your post was in reference to Kate's book, fine by me.  However the risk of deflection would most certainly be reduced were you to follow my suggestion bearing in mind the thrust of your post which if I remember correctly, was press abuse.

You've now shifted from off-topic to deflection.   (&^&

You raised 'botched' and I responded.  Simple.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 31, 2019, 04:32:16 PM
I can only recall the following:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11076.msg559885#msg559885

The index lists children, checking but no mention of the unsecured patio doors eg P165:

Had Madeleine been specifically targeted, either for herself or because someone knew that apartment 5A would be a breeze to raid?  Not only did its corner position allow for easy access and escape, but unlike many other residences, it had no protective wrought-iron bars at the windows and no security light.  Page 165.

The above is disingenuous imo and further evidence of blame shifting. 

How many other residences contained 3 small sleeping children left alone night after night in an apartment with unlocked patio doors?  Of course its easier to blame the lack of wrought iron bars and no security light.   

Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Brietta on October 31, 2019, 04:41:04 PM
The index lists children, checking but no mention of the unsecured patio doors eg P165:

Had Madeleine been specifically targeted, either for herself or because someone knew that apartment 5A would be a breeze to raid?  Not only did its corner position allow for easy access and escape, but unlike many other residences, it had no protective wrought-iron bars at the windows and no security light.  Page 165.

The above is disingenuous imo and further evidence of blame shifting. 

How many other residences contained 3 small sleeping children left alone night after night in an apartment with unlocked patio doors?  Of course its easier to blame the lack of wrought iron bars and no security light.   
Snip
We talked through the guilt we felt about not having been in that apartment with the children; about having left the patio doors unlocked

madeleineKate McCann
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 31, 2019, 04:49:57 PM
Snip
We talked through the guilt we felt about not having been in that apartment with the children; about having left the patio doors unlocked

madeleineKate McCann

Yes I quoted that up thread and said afaik its the only ref to the unsecured patio doors. 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Lace on October 31, 2019, 04:51:11 PM
Does it mention anywhere in Kate's bestseller that they botched their own child care arrangements, or lack of them?

Yes.   From Madeleine -

Gerry and I were standing in the living room clutching each other,  utterly distraught.   I couldn't help myself let alone try to soothe Gerry, who was in a state too harrowing for me to bear,  howling for his precious little girl.  I kept blaming myself -  'We've let her down!  We've failed her!'
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Brietta on October 31, 2019, 05:42:22 PM
Yes I quoted that up thread and said afaik its the only ref to the unsecured patio doors.

Really? Will you link to your post for me please.  I have carried out a search and found that post above and plenty of other posts containing the information ... but no other that I can see on this thread.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 31, 2019, 07:08:49 PM
Then what you are doing is opening the door for others to express their opinions is similar terminology.

As in the McCanns 'botched' their handling of the police and press no later than 4 May.

It's stuff straight from the gutter.
Why have you taken so against the word “botched”?  And what on earth do you mean by “the McCanns botched their handing of the police and press no later than 4th May”?  Please explain (she asked, knowing there was more chance of pigs flying or Jeremy Corbyn being the next PM).
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on October 31, 2019, 07:45:17 PM
Then what you are doing is opening the door for others to express their opinions is similar terminology.

As in the McCanns 'botched' their handling of the police and press no later than 4 May.

It's stuff straight from the gutter.

But what is your opinion worth when it is driven by bias.. You offered the mccanns your services... Lol... And they didn't reply to you... He'll hath no Fury....
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: The General on October 31, 2019, 08:34:50 PM
But what is your opinion worth when it is driven by bias.. You offered the mccanns your services... Lol... And they didn't reply to you... He'll hath no Fury....
Yeh that post makes literally no sense whatsoever. But 6/10 for effort. He'll hath what now?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 01, 2019, 09:11:07 AM
Really? Will you link to your post for me please.  I have carried out a search and found that post above and plenty of other posts containing the information ... but no other that I can see on this thread.

https://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11064.msg560204#msg560204
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Brietta on November 01, 2019, 09:41:32 AM
https://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11064.msg560204#msg560204

Thank you.

My confusion arises from being told you had mentioned the subject of the unlocked patio doors on this thread.

Snip
Yes I quoted that up thread and said afaik its the only ref to the unsecured patio doors
https://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11064.msg560217#msg560217

That information did not show up in a search for the simple reason you posted it on another thread.  Try it out for yourself ... out of thirty posts on a variety of threads in which you refer to unlocked patio doors ... only one shows up on this thread, and it is not the one you have linked to, it is the one above
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 01, 2019, 09:58:46 AM
Thank you.

My confusion arises from being told you had mentioned the subject of the unlocked patio doors on this thread.

Snip
Yes I quoted that up thread and said afaik its the only ref to the unsecured patio doors
https://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11064.msg560217#msg560217

That information did not show up in a search for the simple reason you posted it on another thread.  Try it out for yourself ... out of thirty posts on a variety of threads in which you refer to unlocked patio doors ... only one shows up on this thread, and it is not the one you have linked to, it is the one above

I posted the link to the relevant text on this thread.  There's no need to keep copying and pasting lines and lines of text when a link can take readers straight to it.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Angelo222 on November 01, 2019, 10:03:29 AM
Maybe if Kate McCann had cooperated with the original police investigation and answered all their questions she wouldn't have felt the need to bare her soul in her book of truths.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 01, 2019, 10:11:18 AM
Maybe if Kate McCann had cooperated with the original police investigation and answered all their questions she wouldn't have felt the need to bare her soul in her book of truths.

I cannot warm to her at all through her book.  She comes over to me as controlling, judgemental and with a massive sense of entitlement.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on November 01, 2019, 10:20:35 AM
I cannot warm to her at all through her book.  She comes over to me as controlling, judgemental and with a massive sense of entitlement.

It's just personal opinion... She seems a really nice person to me... Of course I don't know her as, well as you seem to do having never met her
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: carlymichelle on November 01, 2019, 10:21:32 AM
I cannot warm to her at all through her book.  She comes over to me as controlling, judgemental and with a massive sense of entitlement.

i agree after all it is no ones  fault but gerry and kates for leaving their  children  alone they were responsible for their childrens welfare
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Brietta on November 01, 2019, 10:24:43 AM
I posted the link to the relevant text on this thread.  There's no need to keep copying and pasting lines and lines of text when a link can take readers straight to it.

I find a line or two explaining why you think the link might be helpful can be very useful; if memory serves me well there was such on the original lines and lines of text you linked to on the thread set up to question Gerry's police statements. All a matter of choice though, so entirely up to you how you wish to present your posts.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 01, 2019, 10:28:44 AM
It's just personal opinion... She seems a really nice person to me... Of course I don't know her as, well as you seem to do having never met her

There's no need to make if personal Davel with a facetious comment. 

KM wrote a book about her life and experiences it is up to readers how they interpret the author and the contents.   


Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on November 01, 2019, 10:30:11 AM
As I said yesterday it seems, a large number of posts now are simply a slagfest against the mccanns.  Is this what Holly refers to as mature intelligent debate... LOL
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on November 01, 2019, 10:32:21 AM
There's no need to make if personal Davel with a facetious comment. 

KM wrote a book about her life and experiences it is up to readers how they interpret the author and the contents.
It isn't personal it applies to several posters here.  I don't see how you can make a valid assessment of someone's character in such little information... Until you've met and talked to someone I think such judgements, are rather immature
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 01, 2019, 10:35:14 AM
i agree after all it is no ones  fault but gerry and kates for leaving their  children  alone they were responsible for their childrens welfare

I personally think they would have been better off just sticking their hands up, metaphorically speaking, and saying we made a massive error in judgement which we will have to live with for the rest of our lives no ifs, no buts.  Instead of attempting to justify why they didn't use the creche/hire a sitter and trying to convince us all it was similar to eating in the garden at home when it jolly well wasn't!   
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: The General on November 01, 2019, 10:36:33 AM
It's just personal opinion... She seems a really nice person to me... Of course I don't know her as, well as you seem to do having never met her
The irony is lost on you. Your personal opinion is she's a 'really nice person' - and you haven't met her either.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 01, 2019, 10:38:55 AM
It isn't personal it applies to several posters here.  I don't see how you can make a valid assessment of someone's character in such little information... Until you've met and taljed to someone I think such judgements, are rather immature

Davel please read my post carefully:

I cannot warm to her at all through her book.  She comes over to me as controlling, judgemental and with a massive sense of entitlement.


Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on November 01, 2019, 10:39:19 AM
The irony is lost on you. Your personal opinion is she's a 'really nice person' - and you haven't met her either.

I didn't say ..she's a really nice person... Read the post again to check
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on November 01, 2019, 10:39:37 AM
The irony is lost on you. Your personal opinion is she's a 'really nice person' - and you haven't met her either.

I didn't say ..she's a really nice person... Read the post again to check
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 01, 2019, 10:41:24 AM
As I said yesterday it seems, a large number of posts now are simply a slagfest against the mccanns.  Is this what Holly refers to as mature intelligent debate... LOL

In what way does the following post not constitute mature intelligent debate?

I cannot warm to her at all through her book.  She comes over to me as controlling, judgemental and with a massive sense of entitlement.

Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on November 01, 2019, 10:41:35 AM
Davel please read my post carefully:

I cannot warm to her at all through her book.  She comes over to me as controlling, judgemental and with a massive sense of entitlement.

I did read your post carefully... Your post is opinion... Nothing more... You seem to have made your mind up you dint like her and every post you make is coloured by that bias.. Imo
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: The General on November 01, 2019, 10:43:02 AM
I didn't say ..she's a really nice person... Read the post again to check
Yeh you did, she 'seems'. It's exactly that. That's your opinion. The 'seems' qualifies it as not being fact, but opinion.
Try a little semantic wriggle all you like, but that's what it is hombre.
Kate's book.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on November 01, 2019, 10:43:15 AM
In what way does the following post not constitute mature intelligent debate?

I cannot warm to her at all through her book.  She comes over to me as controlling, judgemental and with a massive sense of entitlement.

How can we have a debate about opinions... You have yours... I have mine... Where is the possibility of debate.. Csn you not see that really simple fact
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on November 01, 2019, 10:44:26 AM
Yeh you did, she 'seems'. It's exactly that. That's your opinion. The 'seems' qualifies it as not being fact, but opinion.
Try a little semantic wriggle all you like, but that's what it is hombre.
Kate's book.

I dint say she is s nice oersin.. As you have now admitted
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 01, 2019, 10:44:41 AM
In what way does the following post not constitute mature intelligent debate?

I cannot warm to her at all through her book.  She comes over to me as controlling, judgemental and with a massive sense of entitlement.

Conversely I am part way through 'Becoming - Michelle Obama' who comes over to me as a thoroughly likeable person. 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: The General on November 01, 2019, 10:45:17 AM
I dint say she is s nice oersin.. As you have now admitted
I said it's your opinion. Read it carefully, if that's within your gift.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Brietta on November 01, 2019, 10:45:23 AM
Maybe if Kate McCann had cooperated with the original police investigation and answered all their questions she wouldn't have felt the need to bare her soul in her book of truths.

She did answer all the questions asked of her throughout the investigation and during very lengthy sessions until she was made an arguida when she exercised her right to silence on legal advice.
As she recalled in her book, Murat did exactly the same when attending a confrontational meeting ... consulting with his lawyer and on at least one occasion both leaving the room to consult ... as was his right.

Portuguese law allows the right of arguidos to silence ... why is Kate to be castigated when the focus of the inquiry turned from searching for her daughter to attempting to implicate her in Madeleine's supposed death?  Pretty daft of her to dignify PJ nonsense of mistaken and misguided conclusions, and abandon Madeleine to her fate as they had done?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on November 01, 2019, 10:46:02 AM
Conversely I am part way through 'Becoming - Michelle Obama' who comes over to me as a thoroughly likeable person.

If I say Donald Trump comes over to me as  really nice person... What value, would that statement have
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: The General on November 01, 2019, 10:47:05 AM
She did answer all the questions asked of her throughout the investigation and during very lengthy sessions until she was made an arguida when she exercised her right to silence on legal advice.
As she recalled in her book, Murat did exactly the same when attending a confrontational meeting ... consulting with his lawyer and on at least one occasion both leaving the room to consult ... as was his right.

Portuguese law allows the right of arguidos to silence ... why is Kate to be castigated when the focus of the inquiry turned from searching for her daughter to attempting to implicate her in Madeleine's supposed death?  Pretty daft of her to dignify PJ nonsense of mistaken and misguided conclusions, and abandon Madeleine to her fate as they had done?
Seemed pretty reasonable questions to me.
Kate's book.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 01, 2019, 10:47:52 AM
How can we have a debate about opinions... You have yours... I have mine... Where is the possibility of debate.. Csn you not see that really simple fact

What do you think students debate and discuss in English lit classes? 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on November 01, 2019, 10:47:58 AM
She did answer all the questions asked of her throughout the investigation and during very lengthy sessions until she was made an arguida when she exercised her right to silence on legal advice.
As she recalled in her book, Murat did exactly the same when attending a confrontational meeting ... consulting with his lawyer and on at least one occasion both leaving the room to consult ... as was his right.

Portuguese law allows the right of arguidos to silence ... why is Kate to be castigated when the focus of the inquiry turned from searching for her daughter to attempting to implicate her in Madeleine's supposed death?  Pretty daft of her to dignify PJ nonsense of mistaken and misguided conclusions, and abandon Madeleine to her fate as they had done?

More excuse for intelligent debate... Do sceptics really want to raise the same points over and over again... Do they expect a different outcome... We know what Einstein had to say about such behaviour
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 01, 2019, 10:49:06 AM
If I say Donald Trump comes over to me as  really nice person... What value, would that statement have

My answer to that would be in what way do think he's a really nice person please provide some examples.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on November 01, 2019, 10:49:47 AM
What do you think students debate and discuss in English lit classes?

They debate on opinion based on facts.. Opinion based on too little information is totally worthless... Fact
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: The General on November 01, 2019, 10:50:19 AM
More excuse for intelligent debate... Do sceptics really want to raise the same points over and over again... Do they expect a different outcome... We know what Einstein had to say about such behaviour
On topic? No.
Kate's book.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on November 01, 2019, 10:50:59 AM
My answer to that would be in what way do think he's a really nice person please provide some examples.
And my answer would be why should I have to justify my opinion to you
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: The General on November 01, 2019, 10:51:45 AM
And my answer would be why should I have to justify my opinion to you
Well apparently it's worthless anyway.
Kate's book is also available in paperback.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on November 01, 2019, 10:52:52 AM
My answer to that would be in what way do think he's a really nice person please provide some examples.

Why do you think Kate cones over to others, as a really nice... Kind.. Considerate parent
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 01, 2019, 10:54:18 AM
They debate on opinion based on facts.. Opinion based on too little information is totally worthless... Fact

The fact you consider opinion based on too little information is totally worthless doesn't make it a fact its just your opinion. 

Back to KM's PB we have 400 hundred odd pages which cover everything from her childhood friend eating pickled onion crisps to her child disappearing to her sex life. 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: The General on November 01, 2019, 10:55:16 AM
Why do you think Kate cones over to others, as a really nice... Kind.. Considerate parent
errr....people forming OPINIONS based on the data available, including Kate's book? Sheesh, keep up Davros.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on November 01, 2019, 10:55:53 AM
The fact you consider opinion based on too little information is totally worthless doesn't make it a fact its just your opinion. 

Back to KM's PB we have 400 hundred odd pages which cover everything from her childhood friend eating pickled onion crisps to her child disappearing to her sex life.

So why do you think there is such a totally diverse opinion and to her character... Why isn't it clear cut..
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on November 01, 2019, 10:56:40 AM
errr....people forming OPINIONS based on the data available, including Kate's book? Sheesh, keep up Davros.

And why are this opinions often so polarised
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on November 01, 2019, 10:58:33 AM
Davel please read my post carefully:

I cannot warm to her at all through her book.  She comes over to me as controlling, judgemental and with a massive sense of entitlement.

In what way controlling... Do you mean that in a negative way and opposed to a woman who is assertive
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: The General on November 01, 2019, 10:59:22 AM
And why are this opinions often so polarised
In this instance? It's obviously because of the manner of the disappearance. 'Opinion' would almost certainly be overwhelmingly sympathetic if the circumstances were different. Perhaps even the simple act of locking the doors might have swayed public opinion.
Opinion is pretty important.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Brietta on November 01, 2019, 11:01:21 AM
I personally think they would have been better off just sticking their hands up, metaphorically speaking, and saying we made a massive error in judgement which we will have to live with for the rest of our lives no ifs, no buts.  Instead of attempting to justify why they didn't use the creche/hire a sitter and trying to convince us all it was similar to eating in the garden at home when it jolly well wasn't!

You seem to be referring to an entirely different book from the one I read which is dripping with the regrets of an anguished mother driven to the brink of madness (nuttiness? mental health issues?) by the loss of her daughter including leaving her children alone.

You do realise the events you describe all happened over twelve years ago?  In what way do you think your and others constant revisiting of them advances Madeleine's case in any way whatsoever?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 01, 2019, 11:03:25 AM
Why do you think Kate cones over to others, as a really nice... Kind.. Considerate parent

In what way do you believe KM comes over as "really nice...Kind?

I disagree that she comes over as a considerate parent on the basis that she put her own needs before that of her children in terms of leaving them alone every evening in an unsecured holiday apartment Sun - Thu.  She did not need to go to tapas every evening.  Her and GM could have taken it in turns with one baby-sitting.  They did not think it through before arriving in resort to the point they could have taken a baby monitor. 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: jassi on November 01, 2019, 11:05:33 AM
You seem to be referring to an entirely different book from the one I read which is dripping with the regrets of an anguished mother driven to the brink of madness (nuttiness? mental health issues?) by the loss of her daughter including leaving her children alone.

You do realise the events you describe all happened over twelve years ago?  In what way do you think your and others constant revisiting of them advances Madeleine's case in any way whatsoever?

Nothing advances Madeleine's case, including aggressive defence of the McCann position by a handful of supporters, but that doesn't seem to deter them.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 01, 2019, 11:08:42 AM
You seem to be referring to an entirely different book from the one I read which is dripping with the regrets of an anguished mother driven to the brink of madness (nuttiness? mental health issues?) by the loss of her daughter including leaving her children alone.

Same book but we probably have different backgrounds/personalities and therefore interpret differently.

You do realise the events you describe all happened over twelve years ago? In what way do you think your and others constant revisiting of them advances Madeleine's case in any way whatsoever?

There's no need for facetious comments.

I personally find it interesting to dissect the book and the author.  If others do they will join in if they don't they won't. 


Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on November 01, 2019, 11:13:16 AM
In what way do you believe KM comes over as "really nice...Kind?

I disagree that she comes over as a considerate parent on the basis that she put her own needs before that of her children in terms of leaving them alone every evening in an unsecured holiday apartment Sun - Thu.  She did not need to go to tapas every evening.  Her and GM could have taken it in turns with one baby-sitting.  They did not think it through before arriving in resort to the point they could have taken a baby monitor.

I would say they believed what they were doing was perfectly safe.... And felt it better the children got the right amount if sleep
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: The General on November 01, 2019, 11:14:47 AM
I would say they believed what they were doing was perfectly safe.... And felt it better the children got the right amount if sleep
Is that your opinion, having read Kate's paperback?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Brietta on November 01, 2019, 11:15:26 AM
Nothing advances Madeleine's case, including aggressive defence of the McCann position by a handful of supporters, but that doesn't seem to deter them.

I disagree.  Madeleine's parents advanced her case by sheer determination and grit.  They never gave up on her and used every manner of means including writing a book to finance their efforts. The police review starting in 2011 leading to the reopening of Madeleine's case which is still a live one would never happened without their efforts on her behalf despite all the active and passive hostility thrown at them over the years ... and which also continues till this day.

A really weird course of action for two people allegedly anxious to cover up for their actions in my opinion.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on November 01, 2019, 11:27:23 AM
Same book but we probably have different backgrounds/personalities and therefore interpret differently.

There's no need for facetious comments.

I personally find it interesting to dissect the book and the author.  If others do they will join in if they don't they won't.

It might be interesting to you but to most others your opinion is not really of any interest because in the main part it is, so subjective
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Brietta on November 01, 2019, 11:29:52 AM
Same book but we probably have different backgrounds/personalities and therefore interpret differently.

There's no need for facetious comments.

I personally find it interesting to dissect the book and the author.  If others do they will join in if they don't they won't.
To rephrase the question I asked in the vain hope of receiving an answer for a pleasant change ...
Kate wrote her book about Madeleine's disappearance twelve years ago and its aftermath.  There are constant references to events of the time which happened then and cannot be changed now such as the unlocked patio door.  In what way do you think the constant internet driven revisiting of them advances Madeleine's case in any way whatsoever?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 01, 2019, 11:30:26 AM
I would say they believed what they were doing was perfectly safe.... And felt it better the children got the right amount if sleep

I would say most mature and responsible parents wouldn't consider it perfectly safe to leave 3 small children under 4 yoa night after night in an unlocked holiday apartment.  A view endorsed by the NSPCC:

There might not be a specific legal age to leave children alone but it’s safe to say babies, toddlers and young children should never be left alone, even if it’s just while you pop down the road. Even if they’re sleeping peacefully when you leave they could well wake up and get very upset when you’re not there to look after them. They would not be able to protect themselves in an emergency and may even try to leave the property to find you.

https://www.nspcc.org.uk/preventing-abuse/keeping-children-safe/leaving-child-home-alone

What prevented the McCanns from taking it in turns to sit the children of an evening?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: jassi on November 01, 2019, 11:34:54 AM
It might be interesting to you but to most others your opinion is not really of any interest because in the main part it is, so subjective

No interest of all, which, of course, is why her views were hammered yesterday by rampant supporters
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on November 01, 2019, 11:39:22 AM
I would say most mature and responsible parents wouldn't consider it perfectly safe to leave 3 small children under 4 yoa night after night in an unlocked holiday apartment.  A view endorsed by the NSPCC:

There might not be a specific legal age to leave children alone but it’s safe to say babies, toddlers and young children should never be left alone, even if it’s just while you pop down the road. Even if they’re sleeping peacefully when you leave they could well wake up and get very upset when you’re not there to look after them. They would not be able to protect themselves in an emergency and may even try to leave the property to find you.

https://www.nspcc.org.uk/preventing-abuse/keeping-children-safe/leaving-child-home-alone

What prevented the McCanns from taking it in turns to sit the children of an evening?

Having discussed this point countless times over several years I'm not interested in going through it, all again... You have your opinion abd others have theirs
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 01, 2019, 11:43:01 AM
To rephrase the question I asked in the vain hope of receiving an answer for a pleasant change ...
Kate wrote her book about Madeleine's disappearance twelve years ago and its aftermath.  There are constant references to events of the time which happened then and cannot be changed now such as the unlocked patio door.  In what way do you think the constant internet driven revisiting of them advances Madeleine's case in any way whatsoever?

Again no need for the facetious comment.

If you care to look back over my posts on this board you will see I have placed a lot of emphasis on the unsecured patio doors from the off.  Imo it is key to solving the case.  My theory/suspects are built around this fact but I couldn't work out to start with why others, lay and professional, didn't appear to place the sort of emphasis on the unsecured patio doors that I have.  When I started to look into it in more detail I came to the conclusion that the McCanns played this down from the off and others have pretty much followed.   
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 01, 2019, 11:52:52 AM
It might be interesting to you but to most others your opinion is not really of any interest because in the main part it is, so subjective

Students and professionals study and dissect all sorts of subjective material ranging from religious books to literature from the likes of Shakespeare which includes dissecting the personalities of the main protagonists.  What we're doing here is no different and I personally find it interesting to debate and discuss KM and the contents of her book in microscopic detail.  If others do they will join in if they don't they won't.   
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on November 01, 2019, 12:14:09 PM
Nothing advances Madeleine's case, including aggressive defence of the McCann position by a handful of supporters, but that doesn't seem to deter them.


One reason for that is the tinternet [police people who are scouring the web for any critisism of the McCanns - to be squashed. and some here may believe Kates mum may be reading and may get upset. I am not sure if more or less upset than BL's family but there you go.

Better authors than Kate have been slammed for their writings. one such man had a fatwa against him [salaman Rushdie] was to be executed for saying percieved unkind words about a sky fairy. Such was the offence by devoted followers of a book written by a guy.

I say better authors, my non muslim friend who did read it after all the publicity, said "it was 'dire'"

I agree with Holly on the way Kate wrote this book, hence why I didn't buy it or read it, I guessed what it would be like and I was proved correct by friends who did read it.

My opinion of Kate and Gerry are based on their behaviour before and after Madeleine's disappearance.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: G-Unit on November 01, 2019, 12:20:32 PM
Why do you think Kate cones over to others, as a really nice... Kind.. Considerate parent

Imo examples of her niceness, kindness and consideration to her children would be helpful. What did she do to give people that impression?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on November 01, 2019, 12:28:03 PM
Imo examples of her niceness, kindness and consideration to her children would be helpful. What did she do to give people that impression?

As I said it's, a pointless debate.... I have my opinion others have there's.. I'm not interested in changing anyones mind
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: The General on November 01, 2019, 12:39:51 PM
As I said it's, a pointless debate.... I have my opinion others have there's.. I'm not interested in changing anyones mind
But we can discuss our perception / opinion of Kate's book right? After all, it was only a few days ago on this thread people were waxing lyrical about it and its overwhelmingly positive reviews, which are - guess what - people's opinions. So it would seem that your assertion of opinions being irrelevant is wrong. Super wrong.

I'm sure there are many 'opinions' in Kate's book - her perceptions of the PJ for example. - tweedledum and tweedledee



Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: G-Unit on November 01, 2019, 12:46:36 PM
As I said it's, a pointless debate.... I have my opinion others have there's.. I'm not interested in changing anyones mind

Or in providing cites to support your opinions, it seems.  @)(++(*
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on November 01, 2019, 01:14:51 PM
But we can discuss our perception / opinion of Kate's book right? After all, it was only a few days ago on this thread people were waxing lyrical about it and its overwhelmingly positive reviews, which are - guess what - people's opinions. So it would seem that your assertion of opinions being irrelevant is wrong. Super wrong.

I'm sure there are many 'opinions' in Kate's book - her perceptions of the PJ for example. - tweedledum and tweedledee



Not To mention 'fking Tossers'- MADELEINE book.

As far as this threat goes,it appears that there are correct opinions and wrong uns.

correct opinion : support a loving family who are victims and never mention MBM disappearing- or question the  issues surrounding it.

Wrong opinion: questioning MBM's disappearance and stating facts about what we were told via the family and friends.

Warning from forum member

the wrong opinion is closely monitored. :)
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on November 01, 2019, 01:48:36 PM
Or in providing cites to support your opinions, it seems.  @)(++(*


 The problem is with Kates 'bestseller' nobel prize contender for outstanding Literature is there are no get out of jail clauses ie:

Bad interpreters, Amaral,the PJ, the people of Portugual even Mrs F. cannot be blamed for any analysis of Kates Book.  Hence no excuses- good eh?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on November 01, 2019, 02:09:03 PM
Or in providing cites to support your opinions, it seems.  @)(++(*

Cites are not required for opinions...
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Brietta on November 01, 2019, 02:20:51 PM

 The problem is with Kates 'bestseller' nobel prize contender for outstanding Literature is there are no get out of jail clauses ie:

Bad interpreters, Amaral,the PJ, the people of Portugual even Mrs F. cannot be blamed for any analysis of Kates Book.  Hence no excuses- good eh?

That's us had repetitive "tossers ~ plummy ~ the Tweedles dum and dee ~ the patio door  etc. etc."  I'm sure the members who knew nothing about all that have been absolutely riveted as they learn all about the really important issues regarding Madeleine's disappearance.
Thanks for continuing my list, saves me a lot of bother ...
Did anyone mention Madeleine's abductor ... or did Kate forget to mention her/him in her book?

For information ... I believe you may have posted not have read it (forgive me if I've got that wrong) ... in her book Kate expresses her high regard for the people of Luz both collectively and individually, for example ...
Snip
I will not name her as I’d hate to draw unnecessary intrusion into her life but I want to pay tribute here to her kindness and courage. It will never be forgotten.
Beijinhos, a minha amiga.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: G-Unit on November 01, 2019, 02:56:12 PM
Cites are not required for opinions...

Which, of course, suggests you can't and that your opinion has no basis.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on November 01, 2019, 02:57:51 PM
Which, of course, suggests you can't and that your opinion has no basis.

It might suggest to you... To me it's I can't be bothered to debate with someone who is willing to ignore overwhelming evidence due to their mindset
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: G-Unit on November 01, 2019, 03:16:47 PM
It might suggest to you... To me it's I can't be bothered to debate with someone who is willing to ignore overwhelming evidence due to their mindset

Imo you always say that when you can't answer.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on November 01, 2019, 03:22:39 PM
Imo you always say that when you can't answer.

That's your opinion which I don't think has any value.

I wouldnt debate the existence of god with a jehovas witness
I wouldnt debate with a flat earther
I've come tonrealise debate on this forum is pointless
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Lace on November 01, 2019, 03:49:55 PM
i agree after all it is no ones  fault but gerry and kates for leaving their  children  alone they were responsible for their childrens welfare

So don't give any blame to abductor then.    I don't care if there was an red arrow lit up with fairy lights pointing to Madeleine's bedroom,  no one has the right to steal a child.   What was stopping the man who assaulted children from taking one of them?   There was no evidence of forced entry to the apartments he entered.

I don't think I'll get an answer from you Carly as all you ever to is bash the McCann's.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Wonderfulspam on November 01, 2019, 03:53:21 PM

So don't give any blame to abductor then.    I don't care if there was an red arrow lit up with fairy lights pointing to Madeleine's bedroom,  no one has the right to steal a child.   What was stopping the man who assaulted children from taking one of them?   There was no evidence of forced entry to the apartments he entered.

I don't think I'll get an answer from you Carly as all you ever to is bash the McCann's.

What abductor?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Erngath on November 01, 2019, 04:11:22 PM

So don't give any blame to abductor then.    I don't care if there was an red arrow lit up with fairy lights pointing to Madeleine's bedroom,  no one has the right to steal a child.   What was stopping the man who assaulted children from taking one of them?   There was no evidence of forced entry to the apartments he entered.

I don't think I'll get an answer from you Carly as all you ever to is bash the McCann's.

Carly never responds to any "supporter" post. 8(8-))
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on November 01, 2019, 04:38:38 PM
God, just listen to yourselves.  Still getting good value out of slagging off the same woman for twelve years, you should be thanking Kate for all the entertainment she’s given you and then maybe think about getting a life (faint hope I know...)
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: The General on November 01, 2019, 04:42:45 PM

So don't give any blame to abductor then.    I don't care if there was an red arrow lit up with fairy lights pointing to Madeleine's bedroom,  no one has the right to steal a child.   What was stopping the man who assaulted children from taking one of them?   There was no evidence of forced entry to the apartments he entered.

I don't think I'll get an answer from you Carly as all you ever to is bash the McCann's.
Well at least in these other, probably totally unrelated cases there was some sign of entry / crime / anything. Besides, surely it's all the more remarkable that, given this sleepy little, off season holiday village was in the throes of a paedo / crime epidemic, that Mr and Mrs McCann saw fit to leave their 3 kids to fend for themselves. Or perhaps they were oblivious; kept in the dark by the local ineptitudes.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Lace on November 01, 2019, 04:44:19 PM
What abductor?

The one that OG are investigating.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: The General on November 01, 2019, 04:45:17 PM
God, just listen to yourselves.  Still getting good value out of slagging off the same woman for twelve years, you should be thanking Kate for all the entertainment she’s given you and then maybe think about getting a life (faint hope I know...)
To be fair I've only been irrationally berating her for a year.
But yes, a few of the Youtube videos particularity are hilarious; all that gurning and nudging, like Nookie Bear on crack.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Lace on November 01, 2019, 04:45:57 PM
Carly never responds to any "supporter" post. 8(8-))

Carly knocks a door and runs away,  its called baiting.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Lace on November 01, 2019, 04:49:00 PM
To be fair I've only been irrationally berating her for a year.
But yes, a few of the Youtube videos particularity are hilarious; all that gurning and nudging, like Nookie Bear on crack.


And your point is?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: The General on November 01, 2019, 04:49:35 PM
Carly knocks a door and runs away,  its called baiting.
.....and your post isn't? Dude, come on.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: jassi on November 01, 2019, 04:50:51 PM

And your point is?

I'd have thought it fairly obvious - he's good for another decade, at least.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: The General on November 01, 2019, 04:53:30 PM

And your point is?
I've got 11 years catching up to do.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on November 01, 2019, 04:58:37 PM
Well at least in these other, probably totally unrelated cases there was some sign of entry / crime / anything. Besides, surely it's all the more remarkable that, given this sleepy little, off season holiday village was in the throes of a paedo / crime epidemic, that Mr and Mrs McCann saw fit to leave their 3 kids to fend for themselves. Or perhaps they were oblivious; kept in the dark by the local ineptitudes.
Yeah, I don’t think that’s something Mark Warner were likely to include in their PoS.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on November 01, 2019, 04:59:56 PM
To be fair I've only been irrationally berating her for a year.
But yes, a few of the Youtube videos particularity are hilarious; all that gurning and nudging, like Nookie Bear on crack.
Why did it take you 11 years to join the party?  Were you too busy having a life then or did you need a new target to irrationally berate?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Wonderfulspam on November 01, 2019, 05:01:21 PM
Yeah, I don’t think that’s something Mark Warner were likely to include in their PoS.

Gerry knew about the paedophile gangs by about 10:30.
He must have got that information from somewhere.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on November 01, 2019, 05:02:31 PM
Gerry knew about the paedophile gangs by about 10:30.
He must have got that information from somewhere.
Mrs Fenn probably tipped him off.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Wonderfulspam on November 01, 2019, 05:03:46 PM
Mrs Fenn probably tipped him off.

I thought she was the abductor?!

Maybe she made it up just to cover her tracks.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on November 01, 2019, 05:07:28 PM
I thought she was the abductor?!

Maybe she made it up just to cover her tracks.
Maybe Wonderfulspam, maybe.  Because of course as we all know Portugal is a paedo free country.  They just don’t have them there.  All the news reports about them were written by the McCanns, even the ones that pre-date Madeleine’s disappearance, like Casa Pia because as you know this was all planned years in advance, before the poor child was even born.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on November 01, 2019, 05:10:39 PM
I thought she was the abductor?!

Maybe she made it up just to cover her tracks.
No according to Holly... It's her neice
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Wonderfulspam on November 01, 2019, 05:11:50 PM
Maybe Wonderfulspam, maybe.  Because of course as we all know Portugal is a paedo free country.  They just don’t have them there.  All the news reports about them were written by the McCanns, even the ones that pre-date Madeleine’s disappearance, like Casa Pia because as you know this was all planned years in advance, before the poor child was even born.

I'm not sure that it's paedo free, but abductors are certainly pretty thin on the ground.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on November 01, 2019, 05:17:35 PM
I'm not sure that it's paedo free, but abductors are certainly pretty thin on the ground.
Of course I forgot to mention no one has ever been abducted in Portugal either, crime free zone innit.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on November 01, 2019, 05:19:00 PM
No according to Holly... It's her neice
LOL!
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on November 01, 2019, 05:30:40 PM
LOL!
It's Hollys theory
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on November 01, 2019, 05:36:35 PM
It's Hollys theory
Really?  Oh dear.  See, I don’t think Holly is mentally ill, but I’d definitely put that in the box marked “nutty”.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: barrier on November 01, 2019, 05:38:36 PM
The one that OG are investigating.

Yet the PJ say,they don't know what happened and have to be prepared for different scenario's,ah well never the twain shall meet.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: jassi on November 01, 2019, 05:40:52 PM
Really?  Oh dear.  See, I don’t think Holly is mentally ill, but I’d definitely put that in the box marked “nutty”.

It'll be in good company then, along with Sadies' blood lines and other associated theories.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Brietta on November 01, 2019, 06:03:21 PM
    Anyone like to discuss Kate's book?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on November 01, 2019, 06:07:33 PM
    Anyone like to discuss Kate's book?
Yeah, it’s crap, the author’s a nasty cow, it’s worse than a Mills and Boon, pack of lies,  blah blah blah blah blah.  That should get us back on track!
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Lace on November 01, 2019, 06:22:37 PM
Well at least in these other, probably totally unrelated cases there was some sign of entry / crime / anything. Besides, surely it's all the more remarkable that, given this sleepy little, off season holiday village was in the throes of a paedo / crime epidemic, that Mr and Mrs McCann saw fit to leave their 3 kids to fend for themselves. Or perhaps they were oblivious; kept in the dark by the local ineptitudes.

The Police said there was no sign of forced entry.   Do you honestly think the McCann's would be told about a man visiting the bedroom of children at night and assaulting them?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Lace on November 01, 2019, 06:23:59 PM
.....and your post isn't? Dude, come on.

No my post isn't baiting Dude,  its true.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: The General on November 01, 2019, 06:40:03 PM
Why did it take you 11 years to join the party?  Were you too busy having a life then or did you need a new target to irrationally berate?
Chained to a radiator in Mogadishu for 7 of them. Long story. Befriended my captors. Took them off guard one night. Set fire to the compound. Escaped with the aid of a helper monkey called Tito.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on November 01, 2019, 06:40:58 PM
Chained to a radiator in Mogadishu for 7 of them. Long story. Befriended my captors. Took them off guard one night. Set fire to the compound. Escaped with the aid of a helper monkey called Tito.

The nutty box is getting full
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: The General on November 01, 2019, 06:46:41 PM
The nutty box is getting full
Get out then.
'Tito, attack!'

....incidentally, Kate's book is available on Amazon. Other outlets are also available.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on November 01, 2019, 06:49:23 PM
Get out then.
'Tito, attack!'

....incidentally, Kate's book is available on Amazon. Other outlets are also available.

if you want a personally signed copy pm me 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: The General on November 01, 2019, 06:55:27 PM
if you want a personally signed copy pm me
Could be useful. Kindling perhaps.
ISBN: 9780552165150
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on November 01, 2019, 06:57:47 PM
Could be useful. Kindling perhaps.

expensive kindling....I have  a personally signed copy of michelle obamas latest too..if thats more to your liking
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: The General on November 01, 2019, 06:59:38 PM
expensive kindling....I have  a personally signed copy of michelle obamas latest too..if thats more to your liking
Who personally signed it, Michelle or Davros?
Is it any good?

Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on November 01, 2019, 06:59:43 PM
Chained to a radiator in Mogadishu for 7 of them. Long story. Befriended my captors. Took them off guard one night. Set fire to the compound. Escaped with the aid of a helper monkey called Tito.
Reasonable excuse.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on November 01, 2019, 07:01:47 PM
Who personally signed it, Michelle or Davros?
Is it any good?

i think we all understand what personally signed means.....are you in or out
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: The General on November 01, 2019, 07:02:47 PM
i think we all understand what personally signed means.....are you in or out
How much?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on November 01, 2019, 07:05:16 PM
How much?

which one....kates is £1.50 including postage...michelles is £250 exclusive
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: The General on November 01, 2019, 07:12:00 PM
which one....kates is £1.50 including postage...michelles is £250 exclusive
Kate's is a bit rich for me.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on November 01, 2019, 07:14:02 PM
Kate's is a bit rich for me.

its  a bit of  a damp squib too ...so wouldnt be much good for kindling..do you think im pitching it  a bit high
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: The General on November 01, 2019, 07:17:44 PM
its  abit of  a damp squib too ...so wouldnt be much good for kindling..do you tink im pitching it  a bit high
Not according to the Amazon ratings.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on November 01, 2019, 07:19:02 PM
Not according to the Amazon ratings.

i thought you didnt rate the ratings
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: The General on November 01, 2019, 07:20:21 PM
i thought you didnt rate the ratings
I don't, but the consensus might suggest it's worth a smidge more than 30 bob.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: G-Unit on November 01, 2019, 08:33:21 PM
The Police said there was no sign of forced entry.   Do you honestly think the McCann's would be told about a man visiting the bedroom of children at night and assaulting them?

According to Kate the British Consul didn't hold back from imparting that worrying news.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 02, 2019, 01:58:43 AM
Please stick to the topic.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: G-Unit on November 02, 2019, 02:45:30 PM
Kate did at least realise that they helped to create the media mayhem and that it might not help.

4th May 2007
We were quite surprised that people were giving interviews but it was understandable. After all, we’d been on the phone half the night to our friends and relatives, sobbing that nothing was being done and begging for their help. And we appreciated the swift response. We were just worried that any criticism of the police might not do us or, more to the point, Madeleine, any favours. [madeleine]

The thing is, things were being done, even if the McCanns weren't aware of it. I expect they felt like we've all felt when visiting A & E and the doctor's and nurses seem to be ignoring us. It doesn't mean they're doing nothing, it just feels like it. Then there's the idea that people in another country can help. How could speaking to the media in that country make a difference? It was more likely to upset the people that the McCanns were criticising, which indeed didn't help matters at all.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Brietta on November 02, 2019, 04:58:51 PM
Kate did at least realise that they helped to create the media mayhem and that it might not help.

4th May 2007
We were quite surprised that people were giving interviews but it was understandable. After all, we’d been on the phone half the night to our friends and relatives, sobbing that nothing was being done and begging for their help. And we appreciated the swift response. We were just worried that any criticism of the police might not do us or, more to the point, Madeleine, any favours. [madeleine]

The thing is, things were being done, even if the McCanns weren't aware of it. I expect they felt like we've all felt when visiting A & E and the doctor's and nurses seem to be ignoring us. It doesn't mean they're doing nothing, it just feels like it. Then there's the idea that people in another country can help. How could speaking to the media in that country make a difference? It was more likely to upset the people that the McCanns were criticising, which indeed didn't help matters at all.

Why do you think the Portuguese police weren't professional enough to ignore criticism and get on with the job in hand which was finding out what happened to Madeleine? Why waste time focusing on "the badly told story" of witness statements which I doubt anyone had had the time to collate or consider particularly some which were probably still being taken when the police were already briefing Jose Manuel Oliveira the crime reporter for the 'Diario de Noticias' of their suspicions.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: G-Unit on November 02, 2019, 06:22:54 PM
Why do you think the Portuguese police weren't professional enough to ignore criticism and get on with the job in hand which was finding out what happened to Madeleine? Why waste time focusing on "the badly told story" of witness statements which I doubt anyone had had the time to collate or consider particularly some which were probably still being taken when the police were already briefing Jose Manuel Oliveira the crime reporter for the 'Diario de Noticias' of their suspicions.

I have made my point using information from 'madeleine'.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Brietta on November 02, 2019, 08:05:38 PM
I have made my point using information from 'madeleine'.
OK ... perhaps Kate might not have mentioned Jose Manuel Oliveira by name but she most certainly does make mention of the breaches of the law with the police setting the agenda by leaking information to the press.

In my opinion the first such was "A Badly Told story" on 5th May.
In Kate's opinion it was the ‘Pact of Silence’ on 3oth June.
Snip
This was probably the first article openly to cast doubt on our version of the events of 3 May. It raised suspicions about us and our friends, about our characters and about our potential involvement in Madeleine’s disappearance
madeleineKate McCann

This is quite ironic given that the McCanns and their friends were silent because their silence was demanded by Portuguese laws on secrecy while the police enjoyed free rein to break the law as often and however they pleased.

Both these news items carried out the task of painting the victims of the crime against them and Madeleine in the worst possible light.  Is that really what the police should have been doing in the best interests of a missing child?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Wonderfulspam on November 02, 2019, 08:18:17 PM

How do you know the McCanns are victims?

I'm yet to see any proof that they didn't do it.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: G-Unit on November 02, 2019, 08:45:17 PM
OK ... perhaps Kate might not have mentioned Jose Manuel Oliveira by name but she most certainly does make mention of the breaches of the law with the police setting the agenda by leaking information to the press.

In my opinion the first such was "A Badly Told story" on 5th May.
In Kate's opinion it was the ‘Pact of Silence’ on 3oth June.
Snip
This was probably the first article openly to cast doubt on our version of the events of 3 May. It raised suspicions about us and our friends, about our characters and about our potential involvement in Madeleine’s disappearance
madeleineKate McCann

This is quite ironic given that the McCanns and their friends were silent because their silence was demanded by Portuguese laws on secrecy while the police enjoyed free rein to break the law as often and however they pleased.

Both these news items carried out the task of painting the victims of the crime against them and Madeleine in the worst possible light.  Is that really what the police should have been doing in the best interests of a missing child?

Several days before it was published, all of us – Fiona, David, Jane, Russell, Matt and Rachael, as well as Gerry and I – had been contacted on our mobile phones by a reporter. Everyone had given her short shrift, but it was clear that somebody hadprovided her not only with our mobile numbers, but with other personal information, too. She had addressed me as Kate Healy, and although this was the name by which I was always known before Madeleine’s abduction, since then I’d only ever been referred to as Mrs McCann. She called Gerry ‘Gerald’, a name he never uses. She knew that Jane and Russell had recently moved to Devon. [madeleine]

It's suprising what investigative journalists can do. How did British journalists find Millie Dowler's phone number?
The Sol journalist may have called Gerry 'Gerald' when he phoned her to complain, but not in her article.
https://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2008/03/madeleine-case-pact-of-silence.html

Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on November 02, 2019, 11:02:27 PM
How do you know the McCanns are victims?

I'm yet to see any proof that they didn't do it.
What would you accept as proof?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Brietta on November 02, 2019, 11:06:47 PM
Several days before it was published, all of us – Fiona, David, Jane, Russell, Matt and Rachael, as well as Gerry and I – had been contacted on our mobile phones by a reporter. Everyone had given her short shrift, but it was clear that somebody hadprovided her not only with our mobile numbers, but with other personal information, too. She had addressed me as Kate Healy, and although this was the name by which I was always known before Madeleine’s abduction, since then I’d only ever been referred to as Mrs McCann. She called Gerry ‘Gerald’, a name he never uses. She knew that Jane and Russell had recently moved to Devon. [madeleine]

It's suprising what investigative journalists can do. How did British journalists find Millie Dowler's phone number?
The Sol journalist may have called Gerry 'Gerald' when he phoned her to complain, but not in her article.
https://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2008/03/madeleine-case-pact-of-silence.html

As far as Kate was concerned the Judicial police flouted the much vaunted secrecy laws by releasing confidential information from official documents to Portuguese reporters.  Exactly as described by Jose Manuel Oliveira.  Kate complained and despite agreement from Luis Neves and Guilhermino Encarnacao that the PJ must have leaked the information illegally "no internal inquiry was ever launched". madeleineKate McCann

By the way ... a journalist hacked Milly Dowler's phone ... not the police. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14017661  the Portuguese police leaked the content of confidential documents and despite the secrecy laws nothing was done. Journalists were arrested over the phone hacking scandal and some were jailed for it. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/hacking-trial-judge-reveals-how-milly-dowlers-voicemail-was-hacked-as-journalists-jailed-9584249.html

Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: G-Unit on November 02, 2019, 11:08:25 PM
How do you know the McCanns are victims?

I'm yet to see any proof that they didn't do it.

Because Kate said so in interviews and in her book?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: G-Unit on November 02, 2019, 11:15:38 PM
As far as Kate was concerned the Judicial police flouted the much vaunted secrecy laws by releasing confidential information from official documents to Portuguese reporters.  Exactly as described by Jose Manuel Oliveira.  Kate complained and despite agreement from Luis Neves and Guilhermino Encarnacao that the PJ must have leaked the information illegally "no internal inquiry was ever launched". madeleineKate McCann

By the way ... a journalist hacked Milly Dowler's phone ... not the police. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14017661  the Portuguese police leaked the content of confidential documents and despite the secrecy laws nothing was done. Journalists were arrested over the phone hacking scandal and some were jailed for it. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/hacking-trial-judge-reveals-how-milly-dowlers-voicemail-was-hacked-as-journalists-jailed-9584249.html

To hack into a phone you need to know the number.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Brietta on November 03, 2019, 01:17:27 AM
Because Kate said so in interviews and in her book?
You are entirely wrong there.  Never once did Kate claim to be a victim in her book although I remember her constant referral to and empathy with all those who are the victims of crime.

Goncalo Amaral may have claimed he was the victim but Kate made it plain that the victim is Madeleine, not him.

The closest she comes to describing herself is in relation to the system with reference to Robert Murat's experiences at the hands of the police when she writes ... "Once we fell victim ourselves to the vagaries of the Portuguese police system, we soon discovered how easy it was for two and two to be put together to make five."
When given access to the files careful reading revealed that the police never had any real evidence against him, no wonder she was able to empathise with him.

In my opinion anyone who has a relative who vanishes whatever the circumstances is a victim of that disappearance.  Having read and listened to the experts who are the relatives of the missing I have a clear understanding that lives are changed by it forever and some lives and relationships are destroyed by it; but everyone is a victim to one degree or another.

Kate McCann is no different from any one of these bereaved  people ... or would you deny her the right to that unwelcome and unwanted status as well.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: G-Unit on November 03, 2019, 08:04:00 AM
You are entirely wrong there.  Never once did Kate claim to be a victim in her book although I remember her constant referral to and empathy with all those who are the victims of crime.

Goncalo Amaral may have claimed he was the victim but Kate made it plain that the victim is Madeleine, not him.

The closest she comes to describing herself is in relation to the system with reference to Robert Murat's experiences at the hands of the police when she writes ... "Once we fell victim ourselves to the vagaries of the Portuguese police system, we soon discovered how easy it was for two and two to be put together to make five."
When given access to the files careful reading revealed that the police never had any real evidence against him, no wonder she was able to empathise with him.

In my opinion anyone who has a relative who vanishes whatever the circumstances is a victim of that disappearance.  Having read and listened to the experts who are the relatives of the missing I have a clear understanding that lives are changed by it forever and some lives and relationships are destroyed by it; but everyone is a victim to one degree or another.

Kate McCann is no different from any one of these bereaved  people ... or would you deny her the right to that unwelcome and unwanted status as well.

It would depend on why and how Madeleine disappeared.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on November 03, 2019, 09:18:40 AM
It would depend on why and how Madeleine disappeared.
But speaking as someone who doesn’t believe the McCanns were directly involved in Madeleine’s disappearance...?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Angelo222 on November 03, 2019, 09:22:56 AM
You are entirely wrong there.  Never once did Kate claim to be a victim in her book although I remember her constant referral to and empathy with all those who are the victims of crime.

Goncalo Amaral may have claimed he was the victim but Kate made it plain that the victim is Madeleine, not him.

The closest she comes to describing herself is in relation to the system with reference to Robert Murat's experiences at the hands of the police when she writes ... "Once we fell victim ourselves to the vagaries of the Portuguese police system, we soon discovered how easy it was for two and two to be put together to make five."
When given access to the files careful reading revealed that the police never had any real evidence against him, no wonder she was able to empathise with him.

In my opinion anyone who has a relative who vanishes whatever the circumstances is a victim of that disappearance.  Having read and listened to the experts who are the relatives of the missing I have a clear understanding that lives are changed by it forever and some lives and relationships are destroyed by it; but everyone is a victim to one degree or another.

Kate McCann is no different from any one of these bereaved  people ... or would you deny her the right to that unwelcome and unwanted status as well.

By their own actions they remain suspects in the eyes of Portugal's highest court.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on November 03, 2019, 09:40:16 AM
By their own actions they remain suspects in the eyes of Portugal's highest court.

I think that's complete an utter tripe
I think the SC judgement is not fit for purpose and will shown to be by the ECHR
I think you are taking the thread off topic

by the logic of teh SC....Barry George is still a suspect in the Dando case as he has not been declared innocent
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Wonderfulspam on November 03, 2019, 10:02:11 AM
What would you accept as proof?

What have you got?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on November 03, 2019, 10:10:17 AM
What have you got?
I asked first.  What would you accept as proof?  Or is there literally nothing that would convince you that they didn’t dispose of their child’s body?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on November 03, 2019, 10:10:58 AM
By their own actions they remain suspects in the eyes of Portugal's highest court.
You will of course be able to provide a cite for this serious allegation.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Wonderfulspam on November 03, 2019, 10:12:59 AM
I asked first.  What would you accept as proof?  Or is there literally nothing that would convince you that they didn’t dispose of their child’s body?

I'm sorry. I thought you were offering.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Wonderfulspam on November 03, 2019, 10:14:50 AM
I think that's complete an utter tripe
I think the SC judgement is not fit for purpose and will shown to be by the ECHR
I think you are taking the thread off topic

by the logic of teh SC....Barry George is still a suspect in the Dando case as he has not been declared innocent

We should find out in 2050.

By then SY will have found the abductor anyway.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on November 03, 2019, 10:25:30 AM
I'm sorry. I thought you were offering.
Can you answer or not?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Wonderfulspam on November 03, 2019, 10:32:06 AM
Can you answer or not?

You already know that I'm certain they diddit.

So yes, nothing, obviously.

Do you think it likely I'll ever be proven wrong?

I don't.  Umpteen years, 12 million spent, nothing to show for it except eliminating the McCanns preferred abductor.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on November 03, 2019, 10:54:48 AM
You already know that I'm certain they diddit.

So yes, nothing, obviously.

Do you think it likely I'll ever be proven wrong?

I don't.  Umpteen years, 12 million spent, nothing to show for it except eliminating the McCanns preferred abductor.

It depends what you mean by proved...its a oft use but perhaps little understood word

1.proved beyond all doubt
2.proved beyond reasonable doubt
3. proved on the balance of probablities


I would say by two of the those definitions innocence has been proven.......beyond all doubt is virtually impossible and is never required by the legal system....apart from the SC in Portugal
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on November 03, 2019, 11:05:46 AM
You already know that I'm certain they diddit.

So yes, nothing, obviously.

Do you think it likely I'll ever be proven wrong?

I don't.  Umpteen years, 12 million spent, nothing to show for it except eliminating the McCanns preferred abductor.
Exactly.  For individuals like yourself, they will always be guilty of disposing of their child’s body no matter what proof subsequently comes to light.  You are completely and utterly close minded.  IMO.  You will never be proven wrong just as a holocaust denier can never be proven wrong or a 9/11 truther, it’s because logic and rational debate is impossible. 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: The General on November 03, 2019, 11:33:03 AM
I think that's complete an utter tripe
I think the SC judgement is not fit for purpose and will shown to be by the ECHR
I think you are taking the thread off topic

by the logic of teh SC....Barry George is still a suspect in the Dando case as he has not been declared innocent
Does that mean you're a suspect in the Dando case, by default?
Kate's book talks about suspects.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Lace on November 03, 2019, 11:39:18 AM
Kate did at least realise that they helped to create the media mayhem and that it might not help.

4th May 2007
We were quite surprised that people were giving interviews but it was understandable. After all, we’d been on the phone half the night to our friends and relatives, sobbing that nothing was being done and begging for their help. And we appreciated the swift response. We were just worried that any criticism of the police might not do us or, more to the point, Madeleine, any favours. [madeleine]

The thing is, things were being done, even if the McCanns weren't aware of it. I expect they felt like we've all felt when visiting A & E and the doctor's and nurses seem to be ignoring us. It doesn't mean they're doing nothing, it just feels like it. Then there's the idea that people in another country can help. How could speaking to the media in that country make a difference? It was more likely to upset the people that the McCanns were criticising, which indeed didn't help matters at all.


Yes we all know what it feels like in A&E or seeing someone we love in hospital,  thinking not enough is being done.   None of us know what it feels like to lose a child and wait for news,   an update as to what was going on.  I don't think the McCann's were getting updated,  otherwise Kate wouldn't have written a letter asking to be updated.   Imagine it, your child missing and you have no clue as to what is happening.

The McCann's hoped by speaking to the media in other countries would get the word out that Madeleine was missing.   How else could they do that?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: The General on November 03, 2019, 11:39:57 AM
It depends what you mean by proved...its a oft use but perhaps little understood word

1.proved beyond all doubt
2.proved beyond reasonable doubt
3. proved on the balance of probablities


I would say by two of the those definitions innocence has been proven.......beyond all doubt is virtually impossible and is never required by the legal system....apart from the SC in Portugal
How?
But keep it in the frame of the thread.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: G-Unit on November 03, 2019, 11:45:29 AM
Nobody knows what happened to Madeleine McCann. According to her parents she was abducted, but they can't prove it and neither can anyone else. Kate's book added no new facts imo.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Erngath on November 03, 2019, 11:58:39 AM
Nobody knows what happened to Madeleine McCann. According to her parents she was abducted, but they can't prove it and neither can anyone else. Kate's book added no new facts imo.


If Kate knows that Madeleine wasn't abducted, do you believe it possible that she would still have written her book?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on November 03, 2019, 12:07:14 PM
Nobody knows what happened to Madeleine McCann. According to her parents she was abducted, but they can't prove it and neither can anyone else. Kate's book added no new facts imo.

According  to SY she was abducted and I would say it's proved in the balance of probabilities
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: G-Unit on November 03, 2019, 12:40:35 PM

Yes we all know what it feels like in A&E or seeing someone we love in hospital,  thinking not enough is being done.   None of us know what it feels like to lose a child and wait for news,   an update as to what was going on.  I don't think the McCann's were getting updated,  otherwise Kate wouldn't have written a letter asking to be updated.   Imagine it, your child missing and you have no clue as to what is happening.

The McCann's hoped by speaking to the media in other countries would get the word out that Madeleine was missing.   How else could they do that?

The McCanns certainly weren't being updated by the PJ after returning to the UK. Why would they be?

Why was it neccessary to alert the world about a child who disappeared in Portugal?

Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on November 03, 2019, 12:44:08 PM
Nobody knows what happened to Madeleine McCann. According to her parents she was abducted, but they can't prove it and neither can anyone else. Kate's book added no new facts imo.
Rubbish, Kate’s book has been a huge source of facts, just because you choose to disbelieve most of them does not alter this fact!
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on November 03, 2019, 12:46:43 PM
The McCanns certainly weren't being updated by the PJ after returning to the UK. Why would they be?

Why was it neccessary to alert the world about a child who disappeared in Portugal?
Are you familiar with the case of Rui Mendonca?  If not I suggest you research it, you will the answer to your questiion then.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: G-Unit on November 03, 2019, 12:59:18 PM

If Kate knows that Madeleine wasn't abducted, do you believe it possible that she would still have written her book?

Why not? She was simply doing what she did from day one. Undermining the PJ, putting her version of events out there and looking for sympathy and donations.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Wonderfulspam on November 03, 2019, 01:19:29 PM
Rubbish, Kate’s book has been a huge source of facts, just because you choose to disbelieve most of them does not alter this fact!

If it isn't true then it isn't a fact. That's a fact.
The fact is, most of Kate's claims could be untrue. And that's a fact.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Erngath on November 03, 2019, 01:22:18 PM
Why not? She was simply doing what she did from day one. Undermining the PJ, putting her version of events out there and looking for sympathy and donations.

You believe she is capable of writing an entire book about Madeleine being abducted, while all the time she knew that Madeleine's body had been disposed of by one parent or both parents?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Angelo222 on November 03, 2019, 01:55:16 PM
Rubbish, Kate’s book has been a huge source of facts, just because you choose to disbelieve most of them does not alter this fact!

Very few of which have ever been substantiated or in the words of the Portuguese Supreme Court, they have never been able to prove that they were not involved in the child's mysterious disappearance.  Their conduct was suspicious as was the refusal by their friends to cooperate fully with the investigation. I must say. such a thing is virtually unheard of as the parents and close associates of any missing infant are normally extremely keen to assist the police unless they have something to hide of course.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on November 03, 2019, 02:07:07 PM
Very few of which have ever been substantiated or in the words of the Portuguese Supreme Court, they have never been able to prove that they were not involved in the child's mysterious disappearance.  Their conduct was suspicious as was the refusal by their friends to cooperate fully with the investigation. I must say. such a thing is virtually unheard of as the parents and close associates of any missing infant are normally extremely keen to assist the police unless they have something to hide of course.

they have never  had the opportunuty to prove their non involvemnent...dont say the recon or answering 48 stupid queswtions would have proved anytyhing...it patently wouldnt.

The Mccanns did fully assist the police  and it was only when it became clear to them that the PJ hadnt got  a clue it became neccessary to do something to stop the silly games the pj were playing. Its called put up or shut up...and thats what kate did....kate exposed the fact that the PJ had no real evidence against her and were just on a fishing trip to try and find some. Well done Kate...she did exactly the right thing
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Brietta on November 03, 2019, 02:08:16 PM
It would depend on why and how Madeleine disappeared.

Bearing in mind that the judicial police ruled out Murat; they also ruled out Kate and Gerry, why do you think they are not victims?
Murat certainly thought he was and Kate recognised what he had been subjected to ... no blame game as far as she was concerned was there? 

So having been investigated to the nth degree and been ruled out of any involvement in Madeleine's disappearance and in the knowledge that British and Portuguese police have spent years (and continue to do so however 'rubbish' it is portrayed by some) investigating the whereabouts of an abductor ... why such a strange response to my post?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on November 03, 2019, 03:00:42 PM
If it isn't true then it isn't a fact. That's a fact.
The fact is, most of Kate's claims could be untrue. And that's a fact.
If it is true then it is a fact, the fact is all of Kate’s claims could be true and that’s a fact.  The fact is you wouldn’t know a fact if it hit you in the facting face.  FACT. 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on November 03, 2019, 03:02:13 PM
Very few of which have ever been substantiated or in the words of the Portuguese Supreme Court, they have never been able to prove that they were not involved in the child's mysterious disappearance.  Their conduct was suspicious as was the refusal by their friends to cooperate fully with the investigation. I must say. such a thing is virtually unheard of as the parents and close associates of any missing infant are normally extremely keen to assist the police unless they have something to hide of course.
When are you going to substantiate your claim that the Supreme Court still considers the McCanns are suspects in their child’s disappearance?  Ever? 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on November 03, 2019, 03:04:11 PM
Why not? She was simply doing what she did from day one. Undermining the PJ, putting her version of events out there and looking for sympathy and donations.
If you believe that then clearly the woman is evil personified - is that what you think she is then?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on November 03, 2019, 03:12:08 PM
Very few of which have ever been substantiated or in the words of the Portuguese Supreme Court, they have never been able to prove that they were not involved in the child's mysterious disappearance.  Their conduct was suspicious as was the refusal by their friends to cooperate fully with the investigation. I must say. such a thing is virtually unheard of as the parents and close associates of any missing infant are normally extremely keen to assist the police unless they have something to hide of course.

more off topic..and opinion presented as fact...do you have no respect for the rules of the forum
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Wonderfulspam on November 03, 2019, 04:17:25 PM
If you believe that then clearly the woman is evil personified - is that what you think she is then?

Is there any proof that she's not?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on November 03, 2019, 04:20:24 PM
Is there any proof that she's not?

No.. There isn't.... Just as there's no proof that the Queen is not a 12 ft lizard as some believe.. Probably the same people who doubt the mccanns
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Brietta on November 03, 2019, 04:28:51 PM
Why not? She was simply doing what she did from day one. Undermining the PJ, putting her version of events out there and looking for sympathy and donations.

In my opinion the contents of that post are beneath contempt.  Kate's book tells us exactly the state she was in as a direct result of Madeleine's disappearance for which she blamed herself.
Far from undermining anyone let alone the judicial police she could barely function.

Her 'version of events' was that of a witness and again she writes eloquently and very movingly of what happened when she discovered Madeleine gone.

Kate required no donations.  She wrote her book to make money to bolster Madeleine's fund ... and her best seller did that in spades.

Like many another relative of a missing person Kate isn't touting sympathy but she does express gratitude to those who have morally supported those whose actions are on Madeleine behalf and for the hope and inspiration conveyed to her, Gerry and the family by well wishers.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Brietta on November 03, 2019, 04:43:53 PM
Very few of which have ever been substantiated or in the words of the Portuguese Supreme Court, they have never been able to prove that they were not involved in the child's mysterious disappearance.  Their conduct was suspicious as was the refusal by their friends to cooperate fully with the investigation. I must say. such a thing is virtually unheard of as the parents and close associates of any missing infant are normally extremely keen to assist the police unless they have something to hide of course.

I think it would be very odd indeed for the parent of a missing child to cooperate with the police in an investigation designed to send them to jail.

In Kate's book the 'tosser' episode describes Kate's realisation that the PJ were out to get her meaning that no-one was actually investigating her child's disappearance and she had become 'the investigation'.
This gave her added strength because of the realisation that without her and Gerry Madeleine was not being looked for ... and as events have proved in retrospect that is exactly what happened ... until the police reviews of 2011 they and therefore Madeleine were on their own. 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: jassi on November 03, 2019, 05:08:06 PM
Given your low opinion of Portuguese justice, if they had wanted to send to McCanns to jail, they would have done so, irrespective of evidence.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on November 03, 2019, 05:17:55 PM
Given your low opinion of Portuguese justice, if they had wanted to send to McCanns to jail, they would have done so, irrespective of evidence.

had they been portuguese and poor....I think what happened in the cipriano case would have happened again
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Brietta on November 03, 2019, 05:52:51 PM
Given your low opinion of Portuguese justice, if they had wanted to send to McCanns to jail, they would have done so, irrespective of evidence.

Actually it wasn't for the want of trying; Kate wondered why anyone would give Amaral and his theories the time of day given his criminal conviction for falsifying documents resulting from the torture of the mother of another missing child'

At the time Kate wrote her book Joana Cipriano was still missing and her mother was still in jail having been convicted of her murder ... oh ... and no-one was looking for Joana because she was officially dead.

Even with no proof of Madeleine's death such as the 'proof' which convicted Leonor Cipriano of murder ... only Kate and Gerry McCann's persistence kept the search for Madeleine going.
No-one looked for Joana.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Wonderfulspam on November 03, 2019, 06:03:03 PM
Actually it wasn't for the want of trying; Kate wondered why anyone would give Amaral and his theories the time of day given his criminal conviction for falsifying documents resulting from the torture of the mother of another missing child'

At the time Kate wrote her book Joana Cipriano was still missing and her mother was still in jail having been convicted of her murder ... oh ... and no-one was looking for Joana because she was officially dead.

Even with no proof of Madeleine's death such as the 'proof' which convicted Leonor Cipriano of murder ... only Kate and Gerry McCann's persistence kept the search for Madeleine going.
No-one looked for Joana.

Joana's mother never bothered to call the police & tell them her daughter was missing.
That should tell you something.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 03, 2019, 06:05:33 PM
During one of the interrogations, João, who has mood shifts, ends up confessing voluntarily to having beaten Joana, who hit a wall with her head and collapsed dead on the floor. He says he was having s.e.x with Leonor while the girl had been out on her errand, but Joana returned and saw them. She said she would tell Leandro about what she saw. The child tried to run out of the house, but was dragged back in by João and Leonor. Leonor slapped her, and then João also slapped the girl. The child flew against a wall, bumped her head and dropped dead on the floor. He then cut up her body and stored it in plastic bags in the family's freezer. Cristóvão, the detective who is interrogating him, asks some specific questions about the process of cutting. João's answers chillingly detail the process, including correct information about the difficulty in separating certain joints. He also tells Cristóvão that all 4 adults - João, Leonor, Leandro and Carlos - ended up knowing that Joana was dead, as he and Leonor showed the bags in the freezer to Leandro and Carlos when they arrived home, later that evening. João later repeats his confession in the presence of his lawyer, and duly signs it.

The detectives return to Figueira, now with a forensics team, to check whether the information that João has given them yields some traces of evidence. Their discoveries turn out to be much more than they bargained for. They discover the orange flip-flops that Joana was supposedly wearing the evening she vanished. Then they turn the uv light to the wall where João told them the child had hit her head before collapsing dead on the floor.

Her face is clearly 'drawn' on the wall, also two small hands that left a trace that goes down the wall, showing Joana's last movement. They also discover the prints of her hands on the frame of the house's outer door, that were left there at the moment when she tried to escape. João had told Cristóvão how Joana had tried to cling to the door frame, and they had to pull her back in by her legs. Everything is photographed.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on November 03, 2019, 06:13:45 PM
During one of the interrogations, João, who has mood shifts, ends up confessing voluntarily to having beaten Joana, who hit a wall with her head and collapsed dead on the floor. He says he was having s.e.x with Leonor while the girl had been out on her errand, but Joana returned and saw them. She said she would tell Leandro about what she saw. The child tried to run out of the house, but was dragged back in by João and Leonor. Leonor slapped her, and then João also slapped the girl. The child flew against a wall, bumped her head and dropped dead on the floor. He then cut up her body and stored it in plastic bags in the family's freezer. Cristóvão, the detective who is interrogating him, asks some specific questions about the process of cutting. João's answers chillingly detail the process, including correct information about the difficulty in separating certain joints. He also tells Cristóvão that all 4 adults - João, Leonor, Leandro and Carlos - ended up knowing that Joana was dead, as he and Leonor showed the bags in the freezer to Leandro and Carlos when they arrived home, later that evening. João later repeats his confession in the presence of his lawyer, and duly signs it.

The detectives return to Figueira, now with a forensics team, to check whether the information that João has given them yields some traces of evidence. Their discoveries turn out to be much more than they bargained for. They discover the orange flip-flops that Joana was supposedly wearing the evening she vanished. Then they turn the uv light to the wall where João told them the child had hit her head before collapsing dead on the floor.

Her face is clearly 'drawn' on the wall, also two small hands that left a trace that goes down the wall, showing Joana's last movement. They also discover the prints of her hands on the frame of the house's outer door, that were left there at the moment when she tried to escape. João had told Cristóvão how Joana had tried to cling to the door frame, and they had to pull her back in by her legs. Everything is photographed.

all absolute rubbish imo...where did this come from...what evidence is there that is true...we know that amaral was convicted for lying....the other detectives tried also lied when they claimed cipriano fell down the stairs..

if you want to believe the PJ thats up to you...I dont believe a word they say
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Brietta on November 03, 2019, 06:23:46 PM
all absolute rubbish imo...where did this come from...what evidence is there that is true...we know that amaral was convicted for lying....the other detectives tried also lied when they claimed cipriano fell down the stairs..

if you want to believe the PJ thats up to you...I dont believe a word they say

I think it may come from here ... An excerpt from Astro's summary of Cristovão's book:
  http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3050.msg114889#msg114889 with Carana doing an excellent forensic analysis to debunk the lot.

Worth a read.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Wonderfulspam on November 03, 2019, 06:28:56 PM
all absolute rubbish imo...where did this come from...what evidence is there that is true...we know that amaral was convicted for lying....the other detectives tried also lied when they claimed cipriano fell down the stairs..

if you want to believe the PJ thats up to you...I dont believe a word they say

You prefer to believe that a mother wouldn't report her 8 year old daughter as missing when she didn't come home one night.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on November 03, 2019, 06:34:09 PM
You prefer to believe that a mother wouldn't report her 8 year old daughter as missing when she didn't come home one night.

I dont beleive anything said on this case without supporting evidence......the PJ claimed there was blood...what they failed to do was take a sample of this blood and have it analysed. Was there any blood or did the pj lie...the blood found in the fridge wasnt even confirmed as human...could have been animal. Cipriano was convicted without any forensic evidence despite calims by the pj....conbvicted on a confession beaten out of her...justice portuguese style
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Wonderfulspam on November 03, 2019, 06:36:24 PM
I dont beleive anything said on this case without supporting evidence......the PJ claimed there was blood...what they failed to do was take a sample of this blood and have it analysed. Was there any blood or did the pj lie...the blood found in the fridge wasnt even confirmed as human...could have been animal. Cipriano was convicted without any forensic evidence despite calims by the pj....conbvicted on a confession beaten out of her...justice portuguese style

There's no point getting upset about it.
It isn't going to bring Joana back.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on November 03, 2019, 06:37:33 PM
There's no point getting upset about it.
It isn't going to bring Joana back.

im not in the slightest upset....im an observer....and thers no proof shes dead
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Wonderfulspam on November 03, 2019, 06:39:02 PM
im not in the slightest upset....im an observer....and thers no proof shes dead

But it's obvious she is.

Why else wouldn't her mother report her missing pronto?

Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: jassi on November 03, 2019, 06:39:58 PM
The Courts have declared that she was murdered, therefore she is dead.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on November 03, 2019, 06:40:42 PM
The Courts have declared that she was murdered, therefore she is dead.

thats absolute rubbish...as you should realise...but you obviously dont
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: jassi on November 03, 2019, 06:41:57 PM
In what way is it rubbish?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on November 03, 2019, 06:43:18 PM
In what way is it rubbish?

Its rubbish because the conviction is based on beyond reasonable doubt...not all doubt
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on November 03, 2019, 06:43:26 PM
But it's obvious she is.

Why else wouldn't her mother report her missing pronto?
Do you have a cite for this, ie: the verified sequence of events leading to the arrival of the first police on the scene?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Wonderfulspam on November 03, 2019, 06:43:42 PM
Seriously.

Who wouldn't report their 8 year old missing when they failed to return home from the shops?

Only McCann supporters it would appear.

One straight from the McCanns guide to good parenting handbook.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on November 03, 2019, 06:44:23 PM
In what way is it rubbish?
If a court decree that night is day does that then make it so?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 03, 2019, 06:44:29 PM
Witness CC3, PJ's criminal investigation coordinator, said they began investigating the case 9 days after the CC's disappearance, and the case was classified as a kidnapping / abduction crime. He became aware of the statements made at GNR and envisioned the television interviews, astonishingly the posture of his mother, who was dressed in black and seemed to be lying, and spoke of her daughter in the past. They began to take statements and decided to go over to the BB house. When they got there they saw that the interior of the room had been washed, and such a wash contrasted with the carelessness of cleanliness and tidiness of the rest of the house, but still they found bloody traces on the floor, the walls, in the bucket and mop and on the soles of some sneakers that were in the room - the witness confirmed the search and seizure of fls.
http://www.dgsi.pt/jstj.nsf/954f0ce6ad9dd8b980256b5f003fa814/bfaf1cea93ab75fb8025716200388d89?OpenDocument&Highlight=0,cipriano
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on November 03, 2019, 06:44:46 PM
Seriously.

Who wouldn't report their 8 year old missing when they failed to return home from the shops?

Only McCann supporters it would appear.

One straight from the McCanns guide to good parenting handbook.

could we have  a cite for this
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on November 03, 2019, 06:46:00 PM
Seriously.

Who wouldn't report their 8 year old missing when they failed to return home from the shops?

Only McCann supporters it would appear.

One straight from the McCanns guide to good parenting handbook.
Once again please point to the evidence for this claim.  I’m not doubting it, I would just like to read it without the WUM propaganda attached. 
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: jassi on November 03, 2019, 06:46:38 PM
If a court decree that night is day does that then make it so?

Why would a court do such a thing ?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on November 03, 2019, 06:47:20 PM
Witness CC3, PJ's criminal investigation coordinator, said they began investigating the case 9 days after the CC's disappearance, and the case was classified as a kidnapping / abduction crime. He became aware of the statements made at GNR and envisioned the television interviews, astonishingly the posture of his mother, who was dressed in black and seemed to be lying, and spoke of her daughter in the past. They began to take statements and decided to go over to the BB house. When they got there they saw that the interior of the room had been washed, and such a wash contrasted with the carelessness of cleanliness and tidiness of the rest of the house, but still they found bloody traces on the floor, the walls, in the bucket and mop and on the soles of some sneakers that were in the room - the witness confirmed the search and seizure of fls.
http://www.dgsi.pt/jstj.nsf/954f0ce6ad9dd8b980256b5f003fa814/bfaf1cea93ab75fb8025716200388d89?OpenDocument&Highlight=0,cipriano

this is a claim by the same investigating polce force who lied when they said cipriano fell down the stairs...on that basis i dont acceot it as fact...whare is the supporting evidence...blood sample analysis
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on November 03, 2019, 06:50:02 PM
Why would a court do such a thing ?

just because  a court rules on a disputed verdict that joanna died does not make it a fact...that is a simple truth
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 03, 2019, 06:51:09 PM
Witness CC8, a doctor specializing in forensic medicine, confirmed that he had been present at the reconstitution of quartering by defendant AA, stating that the defendant chose the cutting instruments most similar to those he had used and that the instruments chosen were the same. best suited the quartering act that the defendant was rebuilding, with the saw cutting bones and muscles and the knife needed to cut nerves and tendons. She also confirmed that the defendant indicated the way he had quartered, aided by his sister, as well as the length of time it took, which seemed appropriate to the reconstructed act. He explained that the defendant hesitated to reconstitute the way he placed the body parts in the ark compartments, It was only when the witness told the defendant that it seemed difficult for him to have the trunk with the limbs fit into the 2nd compartment, that the defendant demonstrated the placement after removing the drawer. The witness, asked if the body of an 8-year-old skinny girl would fit in that chest, did not rule out such a hypothesis, saying that it would fit "on the edge." He said that the cut of a dead body two hours ago leaves little blood.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Wonderfulspam on November 03, 2019, 06:51:23 PM
Once again please point to the evidence for this claim.  I’m not doubting it, I would just like to read it without the WUM propaganda attached.

It's all here on the Cipriano thread.

The shop owner called the police the day after Joana disappeared.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2966.0
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on November 03, 2019, 06:54:11 PM
It's all here on the Cipriano thread.

The shop owner called the police the day after Joana disappeared.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2966.0

Its on this thread ...from you...that the mccanns did it...that doesnt make it true. It seems to me the pj told a lot of lies about the case....they lied in court re the torture trial...amaral was convicted of lying....I see no raeson to believe a word they say
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: jassi on November 03, 2019, 06:54:46 PM
just because  a court rules on a disputed verdict that joanna died does not make it a fact...that is a simple truth

Who is disputing the verdict ? - anyone of consequence ?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on November 03, 2019, 06:56:54 PM
Who is disputing the verdict ? - anyone of consequence ?

if you read the article where GA is interviewd by  a portuguese journalist ...it seems very few portuguese think cipraino is guilty
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Wonderfulspam on November 03, 2019, 06:58:17 PM
Its on this thread ...from you...that the mccanns did it...that doesnt make it true. It seems to me the pj told a lot of lies about the case....they lied in court re the torture trial...amaral was convicted of lying....I see no raeson to believe a word they say

You surprise me.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: jassi on November 03, 2019, 06:59:09 PM
if you read the article where GA is interviewd by  a portuguese journalist ...it seems very few portuguese think cipraino is guilty

It doesn't matter what people think - its action that counts
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on November 03, 2019, 06:59:17 PM
You surprise me.

you never surprise me
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on November 03, 2019, 07:00:12 PM
It doesn't matter what people think - its action that counts

im just giving my opinion based on the facts...nothing here counts...not sure why I bother
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Wonderfulspam on November 03, 2019, 07:00:55 PM
Who is disputing the verdict ? - anyone of consequence ?

The Cipriano's mother wants nothing to do with the pair.

Mum knows best.

https://www.portugalresident.com/2019/03/12/tragic-joanas-uncle-out-of-jail-after-15-years/
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: jassi on November 03, 2019, 07:02:38 PM
im just giving my opinion based on the facts...nothing here counts...not sure why I bother

That's right - your opinion counts for tiddly squat, particularly where legal decisions are concerned.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on November 03, 2019, 07:05:34 PM
That's right - your opinion counts for tiddly squat, particularly where legal decisions are concerned.

as does everyone elses opinion...but facts are important....and the fact cipriano was found guilty ...does not mean
1.  she is guilty
2. joanna is dead


so you can say the court found leonora guilty ... thats a fact...but its not  afact she is guilty and its not  a fact joanna is dead
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on November 03, 2019, 07:06:41 PM
The Cipriano's mother wants nothing to do with the pair.

Mum knows best.

https://www.portugalresident.com/2019/03/12/tragic-joanas-uncle-out-of-jail-after-15-years/

that isnt leonoras mother
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: jassi on November 03, 2019, 07:07:32 PM
As far as the Portuguese court is concerned she is. Get over it.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on November 03, 2019, 07:10:45 PM
As far as the Portuguese court is concerned she is. Get over it.

that isnt true either...its tiresome having to explain basic facts to posters who claim to have a level of intelligence..
the court ruling is not an absolute statement of fact...its merely the courts opinion based on teh evidence presented..
its quite possible taht with a very good lawyer cipriano cold ahve been found not guilty...thats a fact too

Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 03, 2019, 07:11:47 PM
could we have  a cite for this

Witness AA7, military of GNR, said that on 13 September 2004, at the GNR Post of Portimão, between 10h30m / 11h, received the complaint of the disappearance of the CC. It was the mother who made the complaint, accompanied by defendant AA. Defendant BB looked sad but did not cry. The witness received the photographs her mother was taking and asked if there was any reason for CC to run away from home or if she had any suspicions, and the accused BB replied no.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Wonderfulspam on November 03, 2019, 07:11:56 PM
Joana would now be 22.

Where is she?

Still locked in the paedos dungeon with Maddie, Shergar & Lord Lucan?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: jassi on November 03, 2019, 07:12:54 PM
that isnt true either...its tiresome having to explain basic facts to posters who claim to have a level of intelligence..
the court ruling is not an absolute statement of fact...


We don't live in a world of abstracts. The courts decision is final - unless countered by a higher court.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on November 03, 2019, 07:15:11 PM

We don't live in a world of abstracts. The courts decision is final - unless countered by a higher court.

i never said it wasnt final....I just explained what it means to you  the courts decision is a statement of opinion...not fact
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on November 03, 2019, 07:17:09 PM
Witness AA7, military of GNR, said that on 13 September 2004, at the GNR Post of Portimão, between 10h30m / 11h, received the complaint of the disappearance of the CC. It was the mother who made the complaint, accompanied by defendant AA. Defendant BB looked sad but did not cry. The witness received the photographs her mother was taking and asked if there was any reason for CC to run away from home or if she had any suspicions, and the accused BB replied no.

the court also claimed the blood belonged to joanna ...which has never been confirmed
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: jassi on November 03, 2019, 07:18:55 PM
i never said it wasnt final....I just explained what it means to you

So it doesn't matter what you think.

To give a trivial example -
You get caught by a police speed van. You dispute you were speeding and take it to court. You lose.
You may believe you weren't speed, but you still have the three points.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on November 03, 2019, 07:19:02 PM
It's all here on the Cipriano thread.

The shop owner called the police the day after Joana disappeared.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2966.0
How did the shop owner know Joana hadn’t got home?
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Davel on November 03, 2019, 07:20:58 PM
So it doesn't matter what you think.

To give a trivial example -
You get caught by a police speed van. You dispute you were speeding and take it to court. You lose.
You may believe you weren't speed, but you still have the three points.

so what evidence was there that you were speeding....just  a policemans statement..has anyone been convicted of speeding on  apolicemans statement
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: jassi on November 03, 2019, 07:22:43 PM
so what evidence was there that you were speeding....just  a policemans statement..

And the camera recording - but it doesn't matter, the court decision means you still get the fine and the points.
Title: Re: KM's Paperback (PB)
Post by: Brietta on November 03, 2019, 07:26:57 PM
Way way way Off Topic folks ... please get back to  Kate's book.  I will leave what has been posted for