Author Topic: So what exactly is Wolters sure about?  (Read 4016 times)

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Offline Davel

Re: So what exactly is Wolters sure about?
« Reply #165 on: June 20, 2021, 09:24:24 AM »
Our understanding of the article's meaning clearly differs.

So what do you understand.. Or not understand.. The complaint was about from the article..


 Cannan racked up the massive bill complaining about his jail conditions, seeking early release and accusing authorities of breaching his human rights

I cant see how this applies to the POI.. explain

Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: So what exactly is Wolters sure about?
« Reply #166 on: June 20, 2021, 09:29:10 AM »
He has brought at least one civil action against the authorities for breaching his human rights.
https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/suzy-lamplugh-murder-suspect-john-15495812
And how did he get on?

Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: So what exactly is Wolters sure about?
« Reply #167 on: June 20, 2021, 09:30:38 AM »
Of course I think he is innocent of involvement of Suzy's disappearance.

He hasn't been found guilty.
But you apply your presumption of innocence selectively so your opinion is utterly worthless IMO.

Offline G-Unit

Re: So what exactly is Wolters sure about?
« Reply #168 on: June 20, 2021, 10:12:47 AM »
And how did he get on?

I've no idea. I do, however, have some insight;

The police took the unusual step of naming Cannan as the only suspect, even though the Crown Prosecution Service does not have enough evidence to take the case to court...

Thoughts on the case: 'The media has tried and convicted my client with no presumption of innocence.

In my experience - and that of everyone present at the press conference - this is an unprecedented move by the police.

There is no way my client could ever get a fair trial after all this publicity, and we've lodged a formal complaint with the police.
https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/news/lawyer-in-the-news/38457.article

Clearly the matter would be raised again if Cann was ever arrested and charged.
England - good effort

Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: So what exactly is Wolters sure about?
« Reply #169 on: June 20, 2021, 10:16:56 AM »
I've no idea. I do, however, have some insight;

The police took the unusual step of naming Cannan as the only suspect, even though the Crown Prosecution Service does not have enough evidence to take the case to court...

Thoughts on the case: 'The media has tried and convicted my client with no presumption of innocence.

In my experience - and that of everyone present at the press conference - this is an unprecedented move by the police.

There is no way my client could ever get a fair trial after all this publicity, and we've lodged a formal complaint with the police.
https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/news/lawyer-in-the-news/38457.article

Clearly the matter would be raised again if Cann was ever arrested and charged.
Obviously his solicitor would say that wouldn't he?  That's what he's paid for.  I'd like to know how the formal complaint was addressed and what was the outcome.

Offline Davel

Re: So what exactly is Wolters sure about?
« Reply #170 on: June 20, 2021, 10:29:05 AM »
I've no idea. I do, however, have some insight;

The police took the unusual step of naming Cannan as the only suspect, even though the Crown Prosecution Service does not have enough evidence to take the case to court...

Thoughts on the case: 'The media has tried and convicted my client with no presumption of innocence.

In my experience - and that of everyone present at the press conference - this is an unprecedented move by the police.

There is no way my client could ever get a fair trial after all this publicity, and we've lodged a formal complaint with the police.
https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/news/lawyer-in-the-news/38457.article

Clearly the matter would be raised again if Cann was ever arrested and charged.

Might be raised but it doesnt mean it would be successful.
You are making an assumption

Offline G-Unit

Re: So what exactly is Wolters sure about?
« Reply #171 on: June 20, 2021, 10:49:15 AM »
Obviously his solicitor would say that wouldn't he?  That's what he's paid for.  I'd like to know how the formal complaint was addressed and what was the outcome.

There's a very interesting case ALLENET DE RIBEMONT v. FRANCE where the ECHR found the French authorities guilty of breaching the presumption of innocence during a press conference.

"Freedom of expression, guaranteed by Article 10 (art. 10) of the Convention, includes the freedom to receive and impart information. Article 6 para. 2 (art. 6-2) cannot therefore prevent the authorities from informing the public about criminal investigations in progress, but it requires that they do so with all the discretion and circumspection necessary if the presumption of innocence is to be respected.

2. Content of the statements complained of

39.  Like the applicant, the Commission considered that the remarks made by the Minister of the Interior and, in his presence and under his authority, by the police superintendent in charge of the inquiry and the Director of the Criminal Investigation Department, were incompatible with the presumption of innocence. It noted that in them Mr Allenet de Ribemont was held up as one of the instigators of Mr de Broglie’s murder."
https://hudoc.echr.coe.int/eng#{%22itemid%22:[%22001-57914%22]}
England - good effort

Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: So what exactly is Wolters sure about?
« Reply #172 on: June 20, 2021, 11:35:57 AM »
There's a very interesting case ALLENET DE RIBEMONT v. FRANCE where the ECHR found the French authorities guilty of breaching the presumption of innocence during a press conference.

"Freedom of expression, guaranteed by Article 10 (art. 10) of the Convention, includes the freedom to receive and impart information. Article 6 para. 2 (art. 6-2) cannot therefore prevent the authorities from informing the public about criminal investigations in progress, but it requires that they do so with all the discretion and circumspection necessary if the presumption of innocence is to be respected.

2. Content of the statements complained of

39.  Like the applicant, the Commission considered that the remarks made by the Minister of the Interior and, in his presence and under his authority, by the police superintendent in charge of the inquiry and the Director of the Criminal Investigation Department, were incompatible with the presumption of innocence. It noted that in them Mr Allenet de Ribemont was held up as one of the instigators of Mr de Broglie’s murder."
https://hudoc.echr.coe.int/eng#{%22itemid%22:[%22001-57914%22]}
And this has what to do with the convicted criminal Canaan's complaint to the police?  Do you have any information on how that one played out?

Offline Davel

Re: So what exactly is Wolters sure about?
« Reply #173 on: June 20, 2021, 12:10:53 PM »
There's a very interesting case ALLENET DE RIBEMONT v. FRANCE where the ECHR found the French authorities guilty of breaching the presumption of innocence during a press conference.

"Freedom of expression, guaranteed by Article 10 (art. 10) of the Convention, includes the freedom to receive and impart information. Article 6 para. 2 (art. 6-2) cannot therefore prevent the authorities from informing the public about criminal investigations in progress, but it requires that they do so with all the discretion and circumspection necessary if the presumption of innocence is to be respected.

2. Content of the statements complained of

39.  Like the applicant, the Commission considered that the remarks made by the Minister of the Interior and, in his presence and under his authority, by the police superintendent in charge of the inquiry and the Director of the Criminal Investigation Department, were incompatible with the presumption of innocence. It noted that in them Mr Allenet de Ribemont was held up as one of the instigators of Mr de Broglie’s murder."
https://hudoc.echr.coe.int/eng#{%22itemid%22:[%22001-57914%22]}

There is no didpute that article 6 can be enforced in some cases but you made a blanket statement that police officerd are not allowed to express an opinion of guilt begore s convviction.. You are clearly wrong as has been shown

Offline G-Unit

Re: So what exactly is Wolters sure about?
« Reply #174 on: June 20, 2021, 12:38:03 PM »
There is no didpute that article 6 can be enforced in some cases but you made a blanket statement that police officerd are not allowed to express an opinion of guilt begore s convviction.. You are clearly wrong as has been shown

Nothing has been shown except that police officers and prosecutors need to be careful about what they say because they can be accused of breaching a suspect's human rights by endangering his/her right to a fair trial.

It cost France 100,000 FRF plus vat when their police officers were found to have breached the human rights of ALLENET DE RIBEMONT by the ECHR.
https://hudoc.echr.coe.int/eng#{%22itemid%22:[%22001-57914%22]}
England - good effort

Offline Davel

Re: So what exactly is Wolters sure about?
« Reply #175 on: June 20, 2021, 12:43:47 PM »
Nothing has been shown except that police officers and prosecutors need to be careful about what they say because they can be accused of breaching a suspect's human rights by endangering his/her right to a fair trial.

It cost France 100,000 FRF plus vat when their police officers were found to have breached the human rights of ALLENET DE RIBEMONT by the ECHR.
https://hudoc.echr.coe.int/eng#{%22itemid%22:[%22001-57914%22]}

You seem to be moving your goal posts all the time.
First it was not allowed
Now its... Have to be careful

I would agree with.... Have to be careful... And Im sure Wolters realises that. In the case you quoted the suspect  was not even tried for the offence.... And I wonder how much evidence they had against him.
Its interesting thst dome here have taken the SCs words as suggesting ng the McCanns might be guilty... That would be an abuse of article 6 would it not

« Last Edit: June 20, 2021, 01:19:40 PM by Davel »

Offline G-Unit

Re: So what exactly is Wolters sure about?
« Reply #176 on: June 20, 2021, 02:29:12 PM »
You seem to be moving your goal posts all the time.
First it was not allowed
Now its... Have to be careful

I would agree with.... Have to be careful... And Im sure Wolters realises that. In the case you quoted the suspect  was not even tried for the offence.... And I wonder how much evidence they had against him.
Its interesting thst dome here have taken the SCs words as suggesting ng the McCanns might be guilty... That would be an abuse of article 6 would it not

Whether Wolters was careful enough remains to be seen. He has been accused by the suspect and his lawyer, but unless the case is submitted to the ECHR eventually we won't know.

What matters in the McCann case is how the ECHR interpret the Portuguese SC judges words, not how 'dome here' have interpreted them. I wonder which words are being questioned?

England - good effort

Offline Davel

Re: So what exactly is Wolters sure about?
« Reply #177 on: June 20, 2021, 02:40:42 PM »
Whether Wolters was careful enough remains to be seen. He has been accused by the suspect and his lawyer, but unless the case is submitted to the ECHR eventually we won't know.

What matters in the McCann case is how the ECHR interpret the Portuguese SC judges words, not how 'dome here' have interpreted them. I wonder which words are being questioned?

So now you have backtracked and conceded that there is no clear breach  when you initially posted..

What Wolters has done is made statements "which encourage the public to believe the suspect guilty and prejudge an assessment of the facts by the competent judicial authority". Plain, simple breach of Article 6:2.

Offline G-Unit

Re: So what exactly is Wolters sure about?
« Reply #178 on: June 20, 2021, 03:42:06 PM »
So now you have backtracked and conceded that there is no clear breach  when you initially posted..

What Wolters has done is made statements "which encourage the public to believe the suspect guilty and prejudge an assessment of the facts by the competent judicial authority". Plain, simple breach of Article 6:2.

That was and is my opinion, yes.
England - good effort

Offline Davel

Re: So what exactly is Wolters sure about?
« Reply #179 on: June 20, 2021, 03:51:43 PM »
That was and is my opinion, yes.

You need to add imo to yout post