Poll - Scent Dogs Accuracy

[Mr Gray]

It means he was being very careful with his words, like everyone else involved in this case. For obvious reasons.

That's all we can say.

Because none of us are experts.

the only expert re eddie and keela is grime..    the evrd alerts were not corroborated and have no evidential value...according to grime

[Lyall]

the only expert re eddie and keela is grime..    the evrd alerts were not corroborated and have no evidential value...according to grime

Clearly that's the case in Portugal at the moment yes.

But you also know he since gave evidence in a courtroom in Detroit.

Did you guys try to get the transcripts from that trial yet? I keep saying you ought to.

[sadie]

Clearly that's the case in Portugal at the moment yes.

But you also know he since gave evidence in a courtroom in Detroit.

Did you guys try to get the transcripts from that trial yet? I keep saying you ought to.

If they are so important, why dont you get them Lyall?

[Lyall]

If they are so important, why dont you get them Lyall?

Because it's not me trying to destroy the man's reputation.

Not saying you are or have, but some people here have repeatedly.

[Benice]

Can you say with absolute certainty ferryman that what the dogs indicated was wrong ?

If so, provide proof.

The dogs indications were not necessarily wrong.  It is the interpretation of those indications by some people which is wrong and which ignores everything  Martin Grime tells us about his dogs.

According to Martin Grime - a dog alerting to a cadaverscent is not  proof that a body was ever in that spot.

As someone who demands 'absolute certainty' I'm surprised that you should decide to ignore the man who knew most about the abilities of his dogs.

[stephen25000]

The dogs indications were not necessarily wrong.  It is the interpretation of those indications by some people which is wrong and which ignores everything  Martin Grime tells us about his dogs.

According to Martin Grime - a dog alerting to a cadaverscent is not  proof that a body was ever in that spot.

As someone who demands 'absolute certainty' I'm surprised that you should decide to ignore the man who knew most about the abilities of his dogs.

However, and rather more obviously, the dogs indications were correct, and the reason dogs are used extensively is that they are extremely reliable.

Hence the attacks by the mccanns and some of their supporters on Martin Grimes. >@@(*&)

In the words of the smirking gerry mccann, ''ask the diogs sandra''

[Benice]

Because it's not me trying to destroy the man's reputation.

Not saying you are or have, but some people here have repeatedly.

How can quoting what Grime himself tells us about the abilities of his own dogs be construed as  'destroying the man's reputation?'

AS far as I know  -  Grime has never once used the word 'cadaver' i.e. dead body - only the word  'cadaverscent' - i.e. residual odour from decaying cellular material.  And that is because he is fully aware that in the absence of corroborating evidence -  any such material alerted to could have originated from a dead body OR a live one.  The dog cannot indicate which - and neither can Grime.

IMO Anyone who claims that because of alerts - 'Madeleine died in 5A'  can only do so by dismissing/ignoring the facts given to us by Grime himself and substituting them with their own opinions - which clearly contradict his.     How can that enhance his reputation?

[Redblossom]

How can quoting what Grime himself tells us about the abilities of his own dogs be construed as  'destroying the man's reputation?'

I suggest you research Ferrymans posts for examples of trying but miserably failing to


 >@@(*&)

[Silkywhiskers]

Scent dogs - there are good, better, and almost infallible.

Eddie and Keela were regarded as part of the last group.

A lot depends on the relationship between handler and dog, and PC Martin Grime is the best also.

The dogs were owned and trained by the UK police (South Yorkshire?) and were working members of the constabulary as was PC Grime.

Anyone wondering about their skills should check out the Long Island SK case.

The killing fields were only located because an off duty dog handler took his off duty scent dog for a stroll one day.

[carol]

How can quoting what Grime himself tells us about the abilities of his own dogs be construed as  'destroying the man's reputation?'

AS far as I know  -  Grime has never once used the word 'cadaver' i.e. dead body - only the word  'cadaverscent' - i.e. residual odour from decaying cellular material.  And that is because he is fully aware that in the absence of corroborating evidence -  any such material alerted to could have originated from a dead body OR a live one.  The dog cannot indicate which - and neither can Grime.

IMO Anyone who claims that because of alerts - 'Madeleine died in 5A'  can only do so by dismissing/ignoring the facts given to us by Grime himself and substituting them with their own opinions - which clearly contradict his.     How can that enhance his reputation?

Help me here:

Cadaver Dogs are trained to locate and follow the scent of decomposing human flesh, that much I know. Having alerted in  5A, are you actually saying that the scent the dog  alerted to was from an alive/dead person? Sort of like someone suffering from gangrene?

[sadie]

Help me here:

Cadaver Dogs are trained to locate and follow the scent of decomposing human flesh, that much I know. Having alerted in  5A, are you actually saying that the scent the dog  alerted to was from an alive/dead person? Sort of like someone suffering from gangrene?

Hi Carol

Welcome by the way.

Hope this helps you

http://csst.org/forensic_evidence_canines.html


We call Eddie a Cadavar dog but in actual fact he is a Forensic Search Dog.

However, originally he was trained as a search dog for living humans so he would have been trained as a Decomp Dog  A term used to describe a canine that will indicate when a scent source is living human tissue, blood, semen, urine, feces, and materials that have been handled and worn by humans.



A dog can never be detrained to forget what he has earlier been trained so he is likely to alert to living human tissue, blood, semen, urine , feces and materials that have been handled and worn by humans as well as scents sourced from decomposing human tissue.


What a brilliant nose he has, but it seems that he is flawed because he may alert to living as well as decomposing bodies etc.  It clearly states in the Forensic Search Dog. section that a FSD should never have been crosstrained.

Eddie was.



Forensic Search Dog (The primary focus of this paper)
A canine that has been specifically trained to indicate a scent source as being from decomposed human tissue. Such animals are also trained to exclude (deconditioned to) the scent of human urine, feces, and semen and will not alert on residual scent from a live human; and have never been trained to locate any scent other than that of decomposed human tissue.


Hope this helps.  Eddie the dog that we call a Cadavar Dog is actually Forensic Search Dog and a Decomp Dog.

Because of this he might alert to living matter, such as blood, urine, feces semen etc from a living person as well as Decomposed matter from a dead person



Sorry, but because of his cross training it seems that this brilliant dog, Eddie, wasn't up to the task in hand.



He was also trained on dead pigs, so it is likely that he would alert to Dead pig, I think.



It is a complicated subject and we are still learning.   Hope this helps you. 

[G-Unit]

I thought Eddie was trained by Grime. Who trained him first in another role?

[sadie]

I thought Eddie was trained by Grime. Who trained him first in another role?

No idea but it is my understanding that he was a search dog originally.  Searching for living humans in catastrophy areas, like earthquakes, I suppose.

Search dogs are trained to recognise living human scents.


You cant get a dog to unlearn skills that he has already been taught, so Eddie has two skills


.... but unfortunately this means that in the searching for scents of the dead, he is marred because he also will alert to living scents.

[mercury]

No idea but it is known that he was a search dog originally.  Searching for living humans in catastrophy areas, like earthquakes, I suppose.

Do you have a cite?

[sadie]

Do you have a cite?

No I dont do cites any more cos my eyes will not allow the in depth reading needed.


But there have been mentions of it on here.  I fancy that Martin Grime stated that eddie was a search dog before.

Perhaps some one can remember?