Poll - Scent Dogs Accuracy

[G-Unit]

Thank you Gunit

Eddie was basically a Forensic search Dog ....   BUT !!


Forensic Search Dog (The primary focus of this paper)
A canine that has been specifically trained to indicate a scent source as being from decomposed human tissue. Such animals are also trained to exclude (deconditioned to) the scent of human urine, feces, and semen and will not alert on residual scent from a live human; [color = maroon]and have never been trained to locate any scent other than that of decomposed human tissue.[/color]

The first sentence in black is what Eddie was intended to be

... BUT, looking at the part in blue

Eddie had already been trained to alert on residual scent from a live human, which includes the scent of human urine, feces, and semen    Once trained, the training cannot be detrained.   So he is always likely to alert to the scents of a living human human   

So seems that makes him ineffective, because when he alerts there is no way of knowing whether it is to odour from Madeleines dead body OR residual odour from her living body ... or even blood from a living persion .... or the scent from a dead pig / pork [He was trained using dead pig rather than dead human parts]


The final part in red:

States that he MUST NEVER have been trained to locate any scent other than that of decomposed human tissue. .... but he has !



Therefore poor Eddie whilst having a brilliant nose was unable to "definitely say" whether he was alerting to the scents from a dead body, a living Madeleine, dried blood, or pork.


Forensic Evidence was necessary .... and there was none


The long and short of it is that we just dont know what he alerted to.
You cant hang, draw and quarter the Mccanns on such unsubstantiated alerts, can you?   
And there is nothing else of any substance at all against them


Gunit, I am not very good at explaining things.  Hope you understand


And a big thank you to Anna for her input.

So, is there a reference which tells me this? If so, I'll go and look for it;

Eddie had already been trained to alert on residual scent from a live human,

[slartibartfast]

It seems counterintuitive to say that a dog cannot be retrained. If it can be trained in the first place then I see no reason that it's alert parameters can't be changed given similar training methods. Just another myth stated as a fact.

[sadie]

So, is there a reference which tells me this? If so, I'll go and look for it;

Eddie had already been trained to alert on residual scent from a live human,

It originally came from a document that Lace posted a link to, which appears to have been deleted

BUT this post by Lace has a portion of that document in it

This is the part of the article I posted a link to that tells it all as far as I am concerned -


2) Dogs specifically trained to detect scent of decomposed human tissue can be invaluable in resolving issues related to evidence gathering and determination of investigative direction. It is crucial, however, that dogs be used in situations appropriate to their training level, and that dog handlers are able to support their testimony about dog behavior with accurate training logs. Any canine used for forensic purposes in the location of the scent of decomposed human tissue should never be cross-trained for any other type of scent work if the results of the animal's activities and handler's opinions are to be used for the development of probable cause.


Eddie was trained as a rescue dog first of all,   in which case he would have been trained to detect live human bodies.

When Eddie alerted in the living room behind the sofa,  he alerted exactly where Keela had,  the exact spot, so was obviously in my opinion alerting to may be blood.

If Madeleine had lain behind that sofa long enough for the scent of a cadaver to be apparent,  then Eddie would have been alerting to whole of the area behind the sofa.

Eddie was panting so he was obviously tired and hot,   Keela wasn't panting.

When did Grime retire Eddie?

When Lace comes in again, perhaps you would like to ask her the origin of the document that she was referring to?


To repeat:

Eddie was trained as a rescue dog first of all,   in which case he would have been trained to detect live human bodies.

And once a dog has been trained to respond to certain stimulii he cannot be detrained.


So, as well as odours from dead bodies

Eddie will always be likely to alert to living odours



It has been gone thru five times now Gunit.   

I do hope that you can understand it this time and are prepared to take the facts on board

[sadie]

It seems counterintuitive to say that a dog cannot be retrained. If it can be trained in the first place then I see no reason that it's alert parameters can't be changed given similar training methods. Just another myth stated as a fact.

It is made plain that once a dog is taught a skill and learns it, it cannot be detrained despite any retraining..

Something once learned stays with the dog.

Also:

Forensic Search Dog (The primary focus of this paper)
A canine that has been specifically trained to indicate a scent source as being from decomposed human tissue. Such animals are also trained to exclude (deconditioned to) the scent of human urine, feces, and semen and will not alert on residual scent from a live human; and have never been trained to locate any scent other than that of decomposed human tissue.

So altho it appears that Eddie has a brilliant nose, unfortunately he was a flawed for the sort of work needed in this case .

With Forensic Evidence then he might have been OK ,

BUT as you know there was no Forensic Evidence against The Mccanns ... therefore he found nothing of significance.


Now will you please excuse me.

[sadie]

It is made plain that once a dog is taught a skill and learns it, it cannot be detrained despite any retraining..

Something once learned stays with the dog.

Also:

Forensic Search Dog (The primary focus of this paper)
A canine that has been specifically trained to indicate a scent source as being from decomposed human tissue. Such animals are also trained to exclude (deconditioned to) the scent of human urine, feces, and semen and will not alert on residual scent from a live human; and have never been trained to locate any scent other than that of decomposed human tissue.

So altho it appears that Eddie has a brilliant nose, unfortunately he was a flawed for the sort of work needed in this case .

With Forensic Evidence then he might have been OK ,

BUT as you know there was no Forensic Evidence against The Mccanns ... therefore he found nothing of significance.


Now will you please excuse me.

Furthermore, in The Conclusions, it states

Any canine used for forensic purposes in the location of the scent of decomposed human tissue should never be cross-trained for any other type of scent work if the results of the animal's activities and handler's opinions are to be used for the development of probable cause.

[G-Unit]

It originally came from a document that Lace posted a link to, which appears to have been deleted

BUT this post by Lace has a portion of that document in it


When Lace comes in again, perhaps you would like to ask her the origin of the document that she was referring to?


To repeat:

Eddie was trained as a rescue dog first of all,   in which case he would have been trained to detect live human bodies.

And once a dog has been trained to respond to certain stimulii he cannot be detrained.


So, as well as odours from dead bodies

Eddie will always be likely to alert to living odours



It has been gone thru five times now Gunit.   

I do hope that you can understand it this time and are prepared to take the facts on board

Thank you for trying to find it Sadie. You didn't, though, did you? We have a quote from Lace saying that Eddie was retrained, but with no cite to support the assertion. That's what I'm looking for. I do hope you can understand that a poster asserting something doesn't make the assertion a fact.

[sadie]

Thank you for trying to find it Sadie. You didn't, though, did you? We have a quote from Lace saying that Eddie was retrained, but with no cite to support the assertion. That's what I'm looking for. I do hope you can understand that a poster asserting something doesn't make the assertion a fact.

As Lace says, she was quoting a snip out of a document that she had already posted.

Lace is totally honourable and if she said that ... then undoubtedly she had posted it .... but I cant find it.

Has it been whooshed?


We must try and remember to ask Lace when she comes in next.


Cheers Gunit !

[mercury]

I would also like a credible official link to anything that says eddie was trained as a sar live victim recovery dog, it doesn't seem to exist


hmmmmm

[G-Unit]

After a lot of asking it seems that Lace made an assertion unsupported by evidence that Eddie was trained as a rescue dog. Sadie then repeated this assertion as a fact. I await Lace's evidence with interest, as I can find nothing saying Eddie was ever retrained.

[sadie]

After a lot of asking it seems that Lace made an assertion unsupported by evidence that Eddie was trained as a rescue dog. Sadie then repeated this assertion as a fact. I await Lace's evidence with interest, as I can find nothing saying Eddie was ever retrained.

Before you start getting haughty, may I remind you that I said let's ask Lace when she comes in.  Have you conveniently forgotten that?


Unfortunately she came in today whilst I was away, but despite that, I do have evidence for you that Eddie was trained as a search dog and alerts to parts of living humans.   

Lace may well be able to add to these.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7263355.stm

-snip -

The dogs have been used by police forces across the world and were called in to help with the Madeleine McCann investigation.
Both are springer spaniels, but the breed is no better suited to the job than any other. A dog just needs to show a keen sense of smell and it's the training that makes them good enhanced victim recovery dogs, says Mr Grime.
Eddie was bred by a specialist search-dog breeder and Keela came from the West Midlands Police breeding programme.
Both live with Mr Grime and have a normal life outside of work. He is currently training two new dogs, Morse and Lewis.
In the Jersey case, parts of a child's body were found on Saturday. The remains are thought to date from the early 1980s. Police have yet to say whether they are male or female.
[Thanks to Ferryman and Carana]


[And also today:  thanks to Brietta]

Eddie also alerted to semen, blood, milk teeth and coconut in Haute de la Garenne.
In fact, in the video I watched there were few places Eddie didn't alert.

I am not about to trawl thru all the Haute de Garenne videos, but Briettas word is good enough for me .... As Laces word was too



Satisfied now, Gunit, that Eddie is also a search and rescue dog as well as a Forensic Search Dog ?



To remind you

Forensic Search Dog (The primary focus of this paper)
A canine that has been specifically trained to indicate a scent source as being from decomposed human tissue. Such animals are also trained to exclude (deconditioned to) the scent of human urine, feces, and semen and will not alert on residual scent from a live human; and have never been trained to locate any scent other than that of decomposed human tissue.


Eddie was double trained.   Brilliant nose tho he has, unhappily he is a flawed dog, because of this double training, for a Forensic Search Dog

It clearly states that as a Forensic Search Dog, he MUST NEVER have been trained to locate any scent other than that of decomposed human tissue. .... but he has !

[G-Unit]

Before you start getting haughty, may I remind you that I said let's ask Lace when she comes in.  Have you conveniently forgotten that?


Unfortunately she came in today whilst I was away, but despite that, I do have evidence for you that Eddie was trained as a search dog and alerts to parts of living humans.   

Lace may well be able to add to these.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7263355.stm

-snip -

The dogs have been used by police forces across the world and were called in to help with the Madeleine McCann investigation.
Both are springer spaniels, but the breed is no better suited to the job than any other. A dog just needs to show a keen sense of smell and it's the training that makes them good enhanced victim recovery dogs, says Mr Grime.
Eddie was bred by a specialist search-dog breeder and Keela came from the West Midlands Police breeding programme.
Both live with Mr Grime and have a normal life outside of work. He is currently training two new dogs, Morse and Lewis.
In the Jersey case, parts of a child's body were found on Saturday. The remains are thought to date from the early 1980s. Police have yet to say whether they are male or female.
[Thanks to Ferryman and Carana]


[And also today:  thanks to Brietta]
I am not about to trawl thru all the Haute de Garenne videos, but Briettas word is good enough for me .... As Laces word was too



Satisfied now, Gunit, that Eddie is also a search and rescue dog as well as a Forensic Search Dog ?



To remind you

Forensic Search Dog (The primary focus of this paper)
A canine that has been specifically trained to indicate a scent source as being from decomposed human tissue. Such animals are also trained to exclude (deconditioned to) the scent of human urine, feces, and semen and will not alert on residual scent from a live human; and have never been trained to locate any scent other than that of decomposed human tissue.


Eddie was double trained.   Brilliant nose tho he has, unhappily he is a flawed dog, because of this double training, for a Forensic Search Dog

It clearly states that as a Forensic Search Dog, he MUST NEVER have been trained to locate any scent other than that of decomposed human tissue. .... but he has !

He wasn't trained by anyone but Grime and he was trained to find dead bodies. Lace gave the same quote as you but it doesn't say he was trained as anything else. I haven't looked at the Jersey case but no-one's word is good enough for me, I'm afraid.

[Lace]

Eddie was trained as a victim recovery dog then he had 'enhanced'   training using dead human bodies,  so he was cross trained.

[G-Unit]

Eddie was trained as a victim recovery dog then he had 'enhanced'   training using dead human bodies,  so he was cross trained.

Enhanced training is intended to improve upon initial training, it's all training in the same area - recovery of dead human bodies. Enhanced doesn't mean different.

enhance;

ntensify, increase, or further improve the quality, value, or extent of.

[Lace]

Enhanced training is intended to improve upon initial training, it's all training in the same area - recovery of dead human bodies. Enhanced doesn't mean different.

enhance;

ntensify, increase, or further improve the quality, value, or extent of.

Problem is that Forensic search dogs are ONLY trained on dead bodies.

[G-Unit]

Problem is that Forensic search dogs are ONLY trained on dead bodies.
[/quote

There is no opportunity to do that in the UK, only in the US. In the UK piglets are used. Later Eddie had some training using the actual scent of dead humans. This helped him to be absolutely sure what he was looking for, it wasn't training in a different area. These dogs are called different things by different people, but they are clearly trained to find, and used to find, dead bodies.