Poll

Peer Reviewed Research suggests that Scent Dogs of all types have a maximunm combined accuracy of about 90%

I Understand and Accept this
3 (50%)
I believe Scent Dogs are more accurate than this
1 (16.7%)
I am not sure
1 (16.7%)
I don't believe Scent Dogs generally are that accurate
1 (16.7%)

Total Members Voted: 6

Voting closed: July 24, 2018, 11:14:43 AM

Author Topic: Poll - Scent Dogs Accuracy  (Read 237562 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline misty

Re: Poll - Scent Dogs Accuracy
« Reply #495 on: June 25, 2018, 10:48:00 PM »
April 2012

The Nose Knows

Can cadaver dogs really sniff out 30-year-old remains?

By Katy Waldman

Police on Thursday revived their search for Etan Patz, a 6-year-old who disappeared in 1979 en route to a New York City bus stop, after a cadaver-sniffing dog recently detected the odor of human remains in a basement near Patz’s SoHo home. Can dogs really smell 33-year-old remains?

Yes, if you have the right dog.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2012/04/etan_patz_search_renewed_can_cadaver_dogs_smell_30_year_old_corpses_.html?via=gdpr-consent

Feb. 14, 2017

Pedro Hernandez, a former bodega stock clerk who confessed to luring 6-year-old Etan Patz into a basement and attacking him, was found guilty on Tuesday of murder and kidnapping, a long-awaited step toward closure in a case that bedeviled investigators for decades and changed forever the way parents watched over their children.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/14/nyregion/etan-patz-pedro-hernandez-guilty.html

The cadaver dog's alerts were not consistent with the confession & despite pulling the basement apart, no body was found there.
https://www.propublica.org/article/missing-a-boy-and-the-evidence-against-his-accused-killer

Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Poll - Scent Dogs Accuracy
« Reply #496 on: June 25, 2018, 11:10:08 PM »
The cadaver dog's alerts were not consistent with the confession & despite pulling the basement apart, no body was found there.
https://www.propublica.org/article/missing-a-boy-and-the-evidence-against-his-accused-killer
This article also has some interesting things to say about the type of people who give false confessions and the circumstances in which they can be elicited #cipriano
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline misty

Re: Poll - Scent Dogs Accuracy
« Reply #497 on: June 25, 2018, 11:15:10 PM »
This article also has some interesting things to say about the type of people who give false confessions and the circumstances in which they can be elicited #cipriano

I agree. Usually in US this type of person has previous. It seems, on the face of it, to be an unsafe conviction.

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Poll - Scent Dogs Accuracy
« Reply #498 on: June 26, 2018, 12:24:24 AM »
How Swedish dogs helped cross-border Kim Wall investigation

Danish artist-inventor Peter Madsen was charged on Tuesday with murdering Kim Wall on board his submarine. The policeman running the Swedish side of the investigation explains the crucial role of his officers – and their dogs.

Peter Madsen's explanation of what happened onboard the submarine Nautilus is crumbling.

Just over a week ago, more remains are found that, according to Danish police, disprove Madsen's version of how the Swedish journalist Kim Wall died.

The proof could be secured after Swedish, specially trained criminal search dogs assisted the Danish police in the search.

Dog hander Johan Esbjörnsson describes the assignment as unusual in several ways.

"It was very special to work at sea. Even the case as such. It felt good to be able to contribute."



Ben is seven years old and the black-brown Springer Spaniel has been waiting in the car while Johan Esbjörnsson showed around the farm.

- He's amazing. He is always happy to work.

Johan Esbjörnsson has worked as a police officer for 40 years, 28 of them as a dog handler. Over the last five years, he and Ben have been a team. Just this windy day, the team is busy preparing for a planned search the following week. And with training Ben in tracking.

When a person dies, the process of decay begins almost immediately. Within 30 minutes, the body has begun to break down, a process that starts in the stomach. During the trash, the cadaver is formed, a smelly fluid that leaves the body.

It's the fluid the dogs are tracking.

The Swedish criminals seek dogs also have a special knowledge: they are trained to search in water.

Already the week after Kim Wall's disappearance, Danish police contact their colleagues in Sweden. The Copenhagen police have confirmed that it is assumed that Kim Wall is dead and looking for a body. Most likely, the body is in the water and now the Swedish police are advised to assist with their dogs, which, unlike the Danish criminals, are trained to search for dead people in water.

The dog handler Lars-Göran Eriksson and the labrador Ace from Stockholm are one of the two teams who first go to Denmark, the first time they are going to search for a dead person at sea.

Searching at sea is basically no different to searching on land: what the dog is looking for is a cadaver, a smelly fluid that leaves the body - and the interaction between dog and driver is crucial.

The searches for Kim Wall were focused on Kögebukten

The Swedish dogs are certainly trained to seek water, but they are used to searching for smaller lakes.

The gases that leave a dead body should be transported through water. And in the water there are several layers, some of which do not let go through the gas. And then the gas moves with the currents, until it for some reason moves on to the surface. It can be a good bit, it is due to ebb and river and cold and other factors.

"If we are looking for a lake in the Stockholm area, it's a lake of maybe 400 times 1,000 meters, so we can not miss that much, the gas goes straight and the find is often straight down," says Lars-Göran Eriksson.

The search for Kim Wall is based on the supposed route the submarine traveled during the night when the Swedish journalist disappeared. The focus is on Kögebukten, where Madsen's submarine also dropped.

The work is carried out under difficult conditions.

- We had no reference points except the digital chart. In some days it was also very high lake. We had no previous experience of it, "says Lars-Göran Eriksson.

When searching at sea and on land, dogs are looking for the same odour. What is different between the two search environments is working conditions, conditions that place extremely high demands on the dog's character.

"It's also possible if the dog can go on a boat, we have had dogs who can not handle it. It must also be a dog that is calm and stable."

Complicated communication

Another aspect of the work that is complicated by sea is the communication between the dog and the handler. In most cases, out in terrain or in an apartment, the dog marks a bargain by basically laying the nose in the spot where it marks a bargain. For natural reasons, it's not possible when you're out at sea.

"Most dogs are barking. My dog hurts more and almost wants to jump in. Then you know he found something, says Lars-Göran Eriksson.

As a last and definitive piece, divers have the Danish Armed Forces gone down and searched where the dogs are marked.

On Saturday, October 7, the Danish police confirm that new discoveries were linked to Kim Wall. Her head and legs have been found together with clothes and a knife.

The findings have been made after the Swedish special search dogs have selected at certain locations in Kögebukten.

- It's Kim Wall's head that's found. The head was in a bag, and the bag also contained metal pieces, Jens Möller, chief of the murder unit at the Copenhagen Police, told a press meeting in connection with the finding.

The specific findings made in Kögebukten, with the help of the Swedish dogs Ben and Ace, are seen as particularly important, especially when it comes to determining the cause of death.

Until the last finds of Kim Wall's remains, Peter Madsen has responded to the police's questions during interrogation. The only defense attorney, Betina Hald Engmark, Madsen has been determined to collaborate and during arrest talks he has published the text about himself, his projects and his version of the trip that ended with Kim Wall's death.

But after the latest finds in Kögebukten, Peter Madsen is silent. Suddenly he no longer wants to talk to the police or answer questions.

Madsen is now undergoing a legal psychiatric investigation, which is expected to be ready towards New Year. Everything indicates that in the near future he will be prosecuted for killing and killing Kim Wall.

When the rain begins to fall over the gym outside Lund on the windy day in October, it has been a few weeks since Johan Esbjörnsson and Ben came back from the searches in Kögebukten. In the garage, the team's boats, those used in Denmark, are on trailers.

Now it's back everyday, and that means training.



After just a few minutes, Ben has found what he seeks: with one's mind he is lying on the ground, quite still, with the nose pointing at one point.

Johan Esbjörnsson marks the finding with a bright colored marker and had it been sharp - at a place where a suspected sexual offense was committed, it had now been time for the police's technicians to accept and secure the evidence.

As a dog handler in Polisregion South, Johan Esbjörnsson usually works in civilian clothes, it becomes easier and many people appreciate low profile, he says.

When the other colleagues from the dog training center outside Lund are looking for drugs, weapons or banknotes, Johan and Ben are looking for dead people. People who may have been subjected to a serious violent crime. It places high demands on how they occur.

https://www.expressen.se/kvallsposten/sa-loste-polishundar-bevisen-mot-madsen/
« Last Edit: June 26, 2018, 11:08:43 AM by pathfinder73 »
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Poll - Scent Dogs Accuracy
« Reply #499 on: June 26, 2018, 12:27:18 AM »
The cadaver dog's alerts were not consistent with the confession & despite pulling the basement apart, no body was found there.
https://www.propublica.org/article/missing-a-boy-and-the-evidence-against-his-accused-killer

Why do you think a body would still be there? Only a complete idiot perp would leave a body in a basement to be found.

"Hernandez, a 51-year-old man with no formal criminal history, said he had lured Etan to the bodega’s basement with the promise of a soda, instantly choked him, placed him, still alive, in a plastic bag, and then inside a cardboard box, threw the boy’s book bag behind a freezer and carried the box in broad daylight several blocks before placing it on the sidewalk. He said he had not known the boy, and he offered no motive."
« Last Edit: June 26, 2018, 12:32:33 AM by pathfinder73 »
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline misty

Re: Poll - Scent Dogs Accuracy
« Reply #500 on: June 26, 2018, 12:49:39 AM »
Why do you think a body would still be there? Only a complete idiot perp would leave a body in a basement to be found.

"Hernandez, a 51-year-old man with no formal criminal history, said he had lured Etan to the bodega’s basement with the promise of a soda, instantly choked him, placed him, still alive, in a plastic bag, and then inside a cardboard box, threw the boy’s book bag behind a freezer and carried the box in broad daylight several blocks before placing it on the sidewalk. He said he had not known the boy, and he offered no motive."

So why did the cadaver dog alert if Etan was still alive when placed in plastic then inside a box?

Online Eleanor

Re: Poll - Scent Dogs Accuracy
« Reply #501 on: June 26, 2018, 01:00:17 AM »

Do we actually have a Body?

Offline misty

Re: Poll - Scent Dogs Accuracy
« Reply #502 on: June 26, 2018, 01:17:19 AM »
Do we actually have a Body?

No, his body has never been found.

Offline Robittybob1

Re: Poll - Scent Dogs Accuracy
« Reply #503 on: June 26, 2018, 03:26:48 AM »
So why did the cadaver dog alert if Etan was still alive when placed in plastic then inside a box?

Could therer be a delay between the killing and the carrying the box away?   [days later] inserted.
"Hernandez, a 51-year-old man with no formal criminal history, said he had lured Etan to the bodega’s basement with the promise of a soda, instantly choked him, placed him, still alive, in a plastic bag, and then inside a cardboard box, threw the boy’s book bag behind a freezer and [days later] carried the box in broad daylight several blocks before placing it on the sidewalk. He said he had not known the boy, and he offered no motive."
Moderation
John has instructed all moderators to take a very strong line with posters who constantly breach the rules of this forum.  This sniping, goading, name calling and other various forms of disruption will cease.

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Poll - Scent Dogs Accuracy
« Reply #504 on: June 26, 2018, 11:35:51 AM »
From above article:

When a person dies, the process of decay begins almost immediately. Within 30 minutes, the body has begun to break down, a process that starts in the stomach. During the process, cadaverine is formed, a smelly fluid that leaves the body.

It's the fluid the dogs are tracking.

"Further searches identified a location where the E.V.R.D. alerted in the front bedroom of the offenders empty next door dwelling house. When interviewed the suspect admitted that the body had lain in the room for 1 hour prior to disposal. Forensic teams were unable to extract any forensic evidence despite being shown the exact position."
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm
« Last Edit: June 26, 2018, 11:41:41 AM by pathfinder73 »
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline misty

Re: Poll - Scent Dogs Accuracy
« Reply #505 on: June 28, 2018, 01:42:06 AM »
Could therer be a delay between the killing and the carrying the box away?   [days later] inserted.
"Hernandez, a 51-year-old man with no formal criminal history, said he had lured Etan to the bodega’s basement with the promise of a soda, instantly choked him, placed him, still alive, in a plastic bag, and then inside a cardboard box, threw the boy’s book bag behind a freezer and [days later] carried the box in broad daylight several blocks before placing it on the sidewalk. He said he had not known the boy, and he offered no motive."

 Did nobody noticed the box on the sidewalk containing a decomposing child's body?

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Poll - Scent Dogs Accuracy
« Reply #506 on: June 28, 2018, 08:27:47 PM »
Pedro Hernandez Gets 25 Years to Life in Murder of Etan Patz

Mr. Patz turned toward Mr. Hernandez and said: “Pedro Hernandez, after all these years, we finally know what dark secret you had locked in your heart. You took our precious child and threw him in the garbage. I will never forgive you. The God you pray to will never forgive you.”

After a long day of interrogation in May 2012, he told detectives in a videotaped interview that he had met Etan outside the bodega and lured him into the basement with the promise of soda. There, he said, he choked the boy. He later repeated the story to a prosecutor during a longer interview, which was also recorded.

“I just couldn’t let go,” Mr. Hernandez said in one interview. “I felt like something just took over me.”

Mr. Hernandez said he put Etan inside a plastic bag and then inside a box and left him a block away in an alleyway with some trash. He said the child was still alive when he abandoned him. He also denied that he had sexually abused Etan.

Mr. Hernandez’s lawyers presented evidence that he had a low IQ as well as schizotypal personality disorder, which caused him to mingle fact and fiction. His daughter testified that he sometimes hallucinated about demons and an angelic woman dressed in white.

The prosecution team — Joan Illuzzi, Joel J. Seidemann and James Vinocur — introduced witnesses who said that Mr. Hernandez had made a similar confession to people at a prayer retreat shortly after Etan disappeared. In addition, his former wife and a childhood friend testified that Mr. Hernandez had told them in the early 1980s that he had killed a boy in New York City, although he gave different details.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/18/nyregion/pedro-hernandez-etan-patz-sentencing.html?rref=collection%2Ftimestopic%2Fhernandez%2C%20pedro%20&action=click&contentCollection=timestopics&region=stream&module=stream_unit&version=latest&contentPlacement=1&pgtype=collection
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline misty

Re: Poll - Scent Dogs Accuracy
« Reply #507 on: June 28, 2018, 11:33:44 PM »
Pedro Hernandez Gets 25 Years to Life in Murder of Etan Patz

Mr. Patz turned toward Mr. Hernandez and said: “Pedro Hernandez, after all these years, we finally know what dark secret you had locked in your heart. You took our precious child and threw him in the garbage. I will never forgive you. The God you pray to will never forgive you.”

After a long day of interrogation in May 2012, he told detectives in a videotaped interview that he had met Etan outside the bodega and lured him into the basement with the promise of soda. There, he said, he choked the boy. He later repeated the story to a prosecutor during a longer interview, which was also recorded.

“I just couldn’t let go,” Mr. Hernandez said in one interview. “I felt like something just took over me.”

Mr. Hernandez said he put Etan inside a plastic bag and then inside a box and left him a block away in an alleyway with some trash. He said the child was still alive when he abandoned him. He also denied that he had sexually abused Etan.

Mr. Hernandez’s lawyers presented evidence that he had a low IQ as well as schizotypal personality disorder, which caused him to mingle fact and fiction. His daughter testified that he sometimes hallucinated about demons and an angelic woman dressed in white.

The prosecution team — Joan Illuzzi, Joel J. Seidemann and James Vinocur — introduced witnesses who said that Mr. Hernandez had made a similar confession to people at a prayer retreat shortly after Etan disappeared. In addition, his former wife and a childhood friend testified that Mr. Hernandez had told them in the early 1980s that he had killed a boy in New York City, although he gave different details.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/18/nyregion/pedro-hernandez-etan-patz-sentencing.html?rref=collection%2Ftimestopic%2Fhernandez%2C%20pedro%20&action=click&contentCollection=timestopics&region=stream&module=stream_unit&version=latest&contentPlacement=1&pgtype=collection

The confession is just not consistent with cadaver alerts to remnant scent some 30 years later.  Didn't Hernandez originally say the boy he killed was black?

Offline Robittybob1

Re: Poll - Scent Dogs Accuracy
« Reply #508 on: June 29, 2018, 08:29:50 AM »
The confession is just not consistent with cadaver alerts to remnant scent some 30 years later. Didn't Hernandez originally say the boy he killed was black?
That bold sentence would be an opinion wouldn't it, or can you show it is a fact?
Moderation
John has instructed all moderators to take a very strong line with posters who constantly breach the rules of this forum.  This sniping, goading, name calling and other various forms of disruption will cease.

Offline misty

Re: Poll - Scent Dogs Accuracy
« Reply #509 on: June 29, 2018, 05:59:05 PM »
That bold sentence would be an opinion wouldn't it, or can you show it is a fact?

Based on the prosecution case & what we know about cadaver dogs, which part of the sentence do you feel is not factual?