Amaral and the dogs

[Carana]

@Shining

Sorry to trouble you, but your opinion would be helpful... My understsnding of Portuguese is somewhat basic.


In this roundabout way, Mark Harrison points out that

Desta forma, muito pouco subtil, demonstrava que a solução para o caso poderia muito bem estar escondida no restrito círculo de indivíduos que mais próximos estavam de Madeleine, ou seja, estávamos agora a ponderar inves- tigar mais seriamente os pais e amigos.

p.160 of book, p. 154 pdf

"Desta forma, muito pouco subtil" doesn't mean "in a roundabout way", does it?

[ferryman]

@Shining

Sorry to trouble you, but your opinion would be helpful... My understsnding of Portuguese is somewhat basic.


In this roundabout way, Mark Harrison points out that

Desta forma, muito pouco subtil, demonstrava que a solução para o caso poderia muito bem estar escondida no restrito círculo de indivíduos que mais próximos estavam de Madeleine, ou seja, estávamos agora a ponderar inves- tigar mais seriamente os pais e amigos.

p.160 of book, p. 154 pdf

"Desta forma, muito pouco subtil" doesn't mean "in a roundabout way", does it?

A google translation is: thus very little subtle ....

[Carew]

These are all hypothetical questions.

What if this, what if that...............................

Unfortunately Martin Grime has chosen not to answer questions on these matters. However, bearing in mind the personal attacks he has received from certain 'parties' I could mention, it is hardly surprising.

perhaps if this case i ever solved, he night answer them, if it is solved of course.

His work seems to have been "within the bounds of reasonable handling" since no official censure has been forthcoming.

As is oft repeated with regard to Madeleine`s parents, why should he accommodate the "only asking questions" section of forumites ?

[Brietta]

Most of the cases which are quoted as 'false alerts' are not proved to be false. They are unknown. The Sharon Matthews case is quoted but it wasn't a false alert the dogs detected the scent of death, just the wrong death. Amaral and his team already suspected the McCanns of something, the dog alerts seemed to confirm their suspicions. They had found nothing to support the abduction theory promoted by the McCanns. They had found nothing to support woke and wandered despite intensive searching.

The report added the dogs, which are trained to detect the smell of dead bodies, have "the potential to cause complications in an inquiry".

"There is an urgent need to have national policy on their training, accreditation and deployment," it concluded.
http://news.sky.com/story/844071/sniffer-dogs-can-hinder-police-work


What an interesting thing for you to say, " ... ... ... it wasn't a false alert the dogs detected the scent of death, just the wrong death."
Thankfully, Shannon was and is alive ... but precious time was taken up by the dogs' positive alert to human remains which might have altered that situation.


What an indictment you make of Mr Amaral and the quality of the investigation led by him and his team.  You seem to find the incompetence of the biggest mistake in the book laudable.

"Amaral and his team already suspected the McCanns of something, the dog alerts seemed to confirm their suspicions."

Are you really having a laugh here?

No competent investigation twists the evidence to suit the theory ... particularly when there is no evidence to begin with ... "seemed" just doesn't cut the mustard.

As far as Mr Amaral's investigation finding nothing is concerned, that is hardly surprising if you are not looking.
For example Heri makes very good points regarding the phone data  http://espacioexterior.blogspot.co.uk/  which he is not presently allowed to access most of which was ignored by the Amaral investigation and which competent investigators from the PJ and SY had to check out years down the line. 
Investigators who are of the opinion that in the absence of evidence to the contrary Madeleine may well be alive and was the victim of a stranger abduction.

That the Amaral investigation relied on unsubstantiated dog alerts and an alleged dream to make Madeleine's parents suspect in her disappearance is risible if it wasn't so serious, but it certainly highlights the amateur manner in which he conducted his investigation. 

[Brietta]

Have you?

I have read enough to know that dogs can alert to the smell of something that had once been there such as a bloody rag or similar,  Eddie alerted to blood,  he would detect the scent even if there wasn't any blood there, cadaver dogs have also been known to alert to decaying vegetation,  Eddie alerted to the garden,  could be the scent of the garden was brought in on someone's shoes.

If Madeleine had lain in that bedroom long enough for the scent of cadaver to be present then Eddie would have alerted straight away to it.

Eddie also alerted to semen, blood, milk teeth and coconut in Haute de la Garenne.
In fact, in the video I watched there were few places Eddie didn't alert.

[stephen25000]

The report added the dogs, which are trained to detect the smell of dead bodies, have "the potential to cause complications in an inquiry".

"There is an urgent need to have national policy on their training, accreditation and deployment," it concluded.
http://news.sky.com/story/844071/sniffer-dogs-can-hinder-police-work


What an interesting thing for you to say, " ... ... ... it wasn't a false alert the dogs detected the scent of death, just the wrong death."
Thankfully, Shannon was and is alive ... but precious time was taken up by the dogs' positive alert to human remains which might have altered that situation.


What an indictment you make of Mr Amaral and the quality of the investigation led by him and his team.  You seem to find the incompetence of the biggest mistake in the book laudable.

"Amaral and his team already suspected the McCanns of something, the dog alerts seemed to confirm their suspicions."

Are you really having a laugh here?

No competent investigation twists the evidence to suit the theory ... particularly when there is no evidence to begin with ... "seemed" just doesn't cut the mustard.

As far as Mr Amaral's investigation finding nothing is concerned, that is hardly surprising if you are not looking.
For example Heri makes very good points regarding the phone data  http://espacioexterior.blogspot.co.uk/  which he is not presently allowed to access most of which was ignored by the Amaral investigation and which competent investigators from the PJ and SY had to check out years down the line. 
Investigators who are of the opinion that in the absence of evidence to the contrary Madeleine may well be alive and was the victim of a stranger abduction.

That the Amaral investigation relied on unsubstantiated dog alerts and an alleged dream to make Madeleine's parents suspect in her disappearance is risible if it wasn't so serious, but it certainly highlights the amateur manner in which he conducted his investigation.

The dogs made alerts. FACT.

The dogs are trained to detect certain compounds. FACT.

[Carew]

Eddie also alerted to semen, blood, milk teeth and coconut in Haute de la Garenne.
In fact, in the video I watched there were few places Eddie didn't alert.

.

.........but only a few places in PDL where he did  .

[Carana]

From his reports, this is the only reference (I am aware of) by Harrison to statistical data-base ....

I am currently of the opinion on the available information and statistical datasets that if death has occurred, that it is possible that Madeleine McCann’s body has been disposed into the sea at Praia da Luz. (See my second report entitled “NPIA OP TASK Search Doc Beach and Marine”).

Are there any others?

I don't know. From your cite, Harrison does indeed seem to be referring to a database of child homicide. His main point (IMO) was to support his proposal of a search area based on where bodies have typically been dumped.

We have a thread on UK statistics somewhere on here. From memory, until recently, the information documented by police varied from force to force and made comparison research very difficult.

Even in this homicide category, do the statistics refer to deaths in which a body has been found and family members or strangers have been convicted? What about cases in which a body has been discovered, but no perpetrator found (typical cold case)?

I would like to read what Harrison actually presented to Amaral for myself...

[Brietta]

I would really like to know why Martin Grime found it essential to be covered from head to toe in protective clothing at the carpark - but not anywhere else?  What was the relevance of that?  Any suggestions Stephen?

(I have to go out now - but will be back later)

Maybe branching out into the self employed business world?

[Brietta]

The dogs made alerts. FACT.

The dogs are trained to detect certain compounds. FACT.

The fact remains there was no evidence, apart from blood, to substantiate alerts.  Opinion doesn't count.

  ... and I do wish you would refrain from shouting.

[Brietta]

.

.........but only a few places in PDL where he did  .

                        So one set of errors balances out another, in your opinion?

[Carana]

The dogs made alerts. FACT.

The dogs are trained to detect certain compounds. FACT.

Milk teeth were found. If Eddie alerted to them, then that's a correct response.

However, if finding milk teeth indicates that the children who lost them are necessarily dead, then we'd be extinct as a species by now, wouldn't we?

[stephen25000]

The fact remains there was no evidence, apart from blood, to substantiate alerts.  Opinion doesn't count.

  ... and I do wish you would refrain from shouting.

Dear oh dear.

It wasn't shouting brietta.

The fact remains, there is nothing in this case, other than the dog alerts.

Opinions don't count as to the 'abduction'.  , you need evidence for that.

[Carew]

                        So one set of errors balances out another, in your opinion?

............ so all the alerts and all non- alerts by Eddie at both sites were erroneous in your view?

[ferryman]

Dear oh dear.

It wasn't shouting brietta.

The fact remains, there is nothing in this case, other than the dog alerts.

Opinions don't count as to the 'abduction'.  , you need evidence for that.

So there's nothing in the case ....