UK Justice Forum

Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Brietta on June 25, 2021, 07:43:09 AM

Title: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on June 25, 2021, 07:43:09 AM
Urge caution to take cooperation in Madeleine case
MAY 19, 2021

The clarification of the case of British girl Madeleine McCann, who disappeared in 2007, could be thanks to Paraguayan cooperation, but investigators urge caution.

The arrest of Christian Manfred Kruse (58), the German citizen who was captured in Bethlehem, Concepcion, could be key to reaching those responsible for the girl's disappearance.

Commissioner Jorge Olmedo, of the Police Anti-Kidnapping Department, who participated in that operation, indicated that reports were heard that the German might be linked to the Madeleine case, but he anticipated that there are many data that have yet to be corroborated.

The version handled by the men in uniform is that Kruse was involved in the abduction of the girl.

The arrest of the German was the result of a work that had the help of German police and that in our country was led by the prosecutor Irma Llano.

The man was wanted in three countries internationally, as he handled at least four pages of child pornography, was in charge of advising paedophiles around the world and decided who was part of the network, as well as accepting or rejecting sexual content.

In the case of Bethlehem, a platform was discovered where there were 400,000 members, and sources consulted by ÚH say that all the material seized in the operation must be completed first.

THE CASE. Madeleine disappeared 14 years ago, while in a hotel in Portugal, spending the holidays with her family. It was May 3, 2007 and since then the follow-up of the case became a puzzle.

His parents, Gerry and Kate McCann are campaigning around the world to try to get to the truth in this case.

Prosecutor Hans Christian Wolters, who is leading the investigation in Germany, says police are convinced the girl died in Portugal.

The investigation indicates that the girl was killed after a kidnapping that occurred in the room where she slept in the rented place to spend her holidays.

During these years of investigation, the version that the girl was brought to Paraguay was also mentioned.

This was said by the private investigator of British origin Miraz Ullah Ali Isa, who was in our country, but this version was discarded by the Police.
https://www.ultimahora.com/instan-tomar-cautela-cooperacion-caso-madeleine-n2941542.html


German leading child pornography network agreed to be extradited
JUNE 24, 2021
The German citizen who was under international investigation for being the administrator of several child pornography sites agreed to be extradited to his country.

The German citizen Christian Manfred Kruse, 58, finally accepted on Thursday the abbreviated extradition to be sent to his country to submit to justice, considering that there he is wanted since 2017 for child pornography.

The man appeared in the morning hours before Judge Mirko Valinottifor the person identification hearing, reported Ultima Hora journalist Raul Ramirez.

Last April, the foreign national was arrested in a house in the town of Belén,in the Department of Concepción. Authorities discovered a platform with 400,000 members.

Prosecutor Irma Llano, of the Unit against Computer Crimes, had said that the man was wanted in Germany, the U.S., the United Kingdom and Australia, since he handled at least four pages of child pornography,was in charge of advising paedophiles around the world and decided who was part of the network. In addition, he was the one who accepted or rejected the sexual contents of the pages.

Related note: Urge caution in Madeleine case

Commissioner Jorge Olmedo, of the Police Anti-Kidnapping Department, who participated in that operation, had indicated that reports were heard that the German could be linked to the case of the British girl Madeleine McCann, who disappeared in 2007, but anticipated that there are many data that have yet to be corroborated.

Kruse entered the country in 2010 and remained irregularly, without Paraguayan documentation; that is, it was handled clandestinely.
https://www.ultimahora.com/aleman-que-lideraba-red-pornografia-infantil-acepto-ser-extraditado-n2947601.html
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Carana on June 25, 2021, 09:10:48 AM
At this stage, there seems to be no way of knowing whether there's a genuine potential connection to this or any other case, or whether it's just clickbait.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on June 25, 2021, 10:54:15 AM
At this stage, there seems to be no way of knowing whether there's a genuine potential connection to this or any other case, or whether it's just clickbait.

I think the "connection" might be the dark web and Brueckner.  There is evidence that Kruze is heavily involved internationally and I believe that the German police may have evidence of Brueckner's use of it.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Wonderfulspam on June 25, 2021, 11:00:59 AM
I think the "connection" might be the dark web and Brueckner.  There is evidence that Kruze is heavily involved internationally and I believe that the German police may have evidence of Brueckner's use of it.

Which proves nothing.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: jassi on June 25, 2021, 12:40:49 PM
Which proves nothing.

Too true. Its all if and maybe , with, as yet, no demonstrable connection between either Brueckner and Kruse, or Madeleine and either German
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on June 25, 2021, 02:22:35 PM
Too true. Its all if and maybe , with, as yet, no demonstrable connection between either Brueckner and Kruse, or Madeleine and either German

There is a tentative association made about Brueckner and a conversation he had on the dark web regarding Madeleine which was alleged by none other than Goncalo Amaral.

Snip
According to the former inspector, in an interview with the Spanish television network Cuatro, this new suspect, a convicted of paedophilia in Germany who killed three of his victims, is not the man who is in the crosshairs of the police

"Right now, there is talk of a German paedophile who is sentenced to life in prison. He killed children and was reported in the British press. Only what I do know is that it's not that man. It's another one," says Gonçalo Amaral.

This other indicated by the former inspector is also detained in Germany and also he is a paedophile. According to him, the man was flagged after talking about Maddie in a private chatroom of paedophilia.
https://theworldnews.net/pt-news/goncalo-amaral-diz-que-suspeito-do-desaparecimento-de-maddie-e-quase-igual-a-gerry-mccann
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: jassi on June 25, 2021, 03:32:32 PM
This is the same Amaral who is a proven liar and who's word cannot be believed ?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on June 25, 2021, 04:05:59 PM
This is the same Amaral who is a proven liar and who's word cannot be believed ?

Do you have an opinion on whether the perjurer is running true to form or do you have validating information from an independent source that Brueckner had used the dark web to discuss 'something little'.
Or do you have nothing to add to any sort of discussion on what is after all a discussion forum.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: jassi on June 25, 2021, 04:30:57 PM
When I see something I consider worthy of debate then I  am more than happy to contribute.

Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on June 25, 2021, 04:34:58 PM
Do you have an opinion on whether the perjurer is running true to form or do you have validating information from an independent source that Brueckner had used the dark web to discuss 'something little'.
Or do you have nothing to add to any sort of discussion on what is after all a discussion forum.
The latter, definitely IMO.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on June 25, 2021, 05:07:35 PM
When I see something I consider worthy of debate then I  am more than happy to contribute.

To be honest with you ~ I cannot say I have noticed anything but negativity emanating from you and certainly no desire to make contributions as your deflections and non sequiturs style of posting gets in the way.
Once again you have successfully deflected discussion into inanity.  It is not adult and I cannot help but imagine it may very well be by design.

There is quite a lot going on in Madeleine's case at the moment.  Much of which can only be surmised about for the simple reason hers is an active case and the police are playing their cards very close to their chests ~ perhaps or particularly, even their Aces.
Please take part in discussion when it suits you to but please don't continue to throw jemmys into the works either when it suits you - it is becoming inordinately tiresome and in my opinion unfair to other posters.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Anthro on June 25, 2021, 05:14:32 PM
It would be interesting to know where Kruse was in 2007. He’s been in Paraguay since 2010. The hairline in the attached pictures has caught my eye.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Holly Goodhead on June 25, 2021, 06:00:42 PM
This is the same Amaral who is a proven liar and who's word cannot be believed ?

Sounds like a case of confirmation bias. 

For those who bearte Amaral/PJ I would respectfully point out the shortcomings of the UK's MET:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9690017/Met-Police-branded-institutionally-corrupt-Daniel-Morgan-murder.html



Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Holly Goodhead on June 25, 2021, 06:14:06 PM
It would be interesting to know where Kruse was in 2007. He’s been in Paraguay since 2010. The hairline in the attached pictures has caught my eye.

You always seem to seize on paedophiles and yet there's no firm evidence the disappearance was sexually motivated.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on June 25, 2021, 06:35:16 PM
Sounds like a case of confirmation bias. 

For those who bearte Amaral/PJ I would respectfully point out the shortcomings of the UK's MET:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9690017/Met-Police-branded-institutionally-corrupt-Daniel-Morgan-murder.html

Classic Whataboutery.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on June 25, 2021, 06:36:39 PM
You always seem to seize on paedophiles and yet there's no firm evidence the disappearance was sexually motivated.

Did you overlook what is going on in the world at the moment and the turn taken by the German investigation into Madeleine McCann's case?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on June 25, 2021, 06:36:54 PM
You always seem to seize on paedophiles and yet there's no firm evidence the disappearance was sexually motivated.
You may not be aware but the paedophile angle is one very much seized upon by both current police investigations, so it’s not just Anthro.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Holly Goodhead on June 25, 2021, 06:58:01 PM
Did you overlook what is going on in the world at the moment and the turn taken by the German investigation into Madeleine McCann's case?

Please provide a link as you usually do.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on June 25, 2021, 07:06:00 PM
Please provide a link as you usually do.
Are you serious?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Wonderfulspam on June 25, 2021, 07:10:36 PM
You always seem to seize on paedophiles and yet there's no firm evidence the disappearance was sexually motivated.

It's what's known as The Presumption of Paedophiles.

It's roots can be traced to the evening of May 3rd 2007, where on, without any evidence of paedophiles, Gerry was ranting down the phone about gangs of them.
He has never explained how he gleaned the information & to date, not a shred of evidence of these paedophile abductor gangs has been presented.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on June 25, 2021, 07:28:19 PM
It's what's known as The Presumption of Paedophiles.

It's roots can be traced to the evening of May 3rd 2007, where on, without any evidence of paedophiles, Gerry was ranting down the phone about gangs of them.
He has never explained how he gleaned the information & to date, not a shred of evidence of these paedophile abductor gangs has been presented.
On the contrary, it would seem PdL was stiff with paedos, even Amaral concedes that.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Wonderfulspam on June 25, 2021, 07:34:04 PM
On the contrary, it would seem PdL was stiff with paedos, even Amaral concedes that.

Paedophiles gangs abducting kids?

How many such abductions have there been?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Holly Goodhead on June 25, 2021, 07:35:33 PM
Did you overlook what is going on in the world at the moment and the turn taken by the German investigation into Madeleine McCann's case?

If its all being handled by the Germans why do think the MET put in a request, since granted, for additional funding from HO?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on June 25, 2021, 08:27:45 PM
Paedophiles gangs abducting kids?

How many such abductions have there been?
As many as there have been examples of Gerry McCann ranting about paedo gangs abducting kids.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: John on June 25, 2021, 09:58:21 PM
Please stay on topic. I have removed several posts including one of my own. TY
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on June 25, 2021, 10:33:20 PM
Paedophiles gangs abducting kids?

How many such abductions have there been?

(https://www.the-sun.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/6/2021/05/NINTCHDBPICT000654133698-6.jpg?w=1860)
This is four year old Cash Gernon
(https://www.the-sun.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/6/2021/05/NINTCHDBPICT000654259224-5.jpg?w=1860)
This is Cash being abducted from his bed where he was sleeping beside his twin brother

Cash was brutally murdered. The intruder returned to take his twin brother but fortunately was disturbed and ran off.

https://todayuknews.com/travel/texas-woman-who-cared-for-cash-gernon-4-gives-tearful-account-of-kidnap/
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Carana on June 25, 2021, 10:36:05 PM
There is a tentative association made about Brueckner and a conversation he had on the dark web regarding Madeleine which was alleged by none other than Goncalo Amaral.

Snip
According to the former inspector, in an interview with the Spanish television network Cuatro, this new suspect, a convicted of paedophilia in Germany who killed three of his victims, is not the man who is in the crosshairs of the police

"Right now, there is talk of a German paedophile who is sentenced to life in prison. He killed children and was reported in the British press. Only what I do know is that it's not that man. It's another one," says Gonçalo Amaral.

This other indicated by the former inspector is also detained in Germany and also he is a paedophile. According to him, the man was flagged after talking about Maddie in a private chatroom of paedophilia.
https://theworldnews.net/pt-news/goncalo-amaral-diz-que-suspeito-do-desaparecimento-de-maddie-e-quase-igual-a-gerry-mccann

The first guy sounds like Martin Ney.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Ney

Re the second (presumably Bruckner), is this private chatroom anything more than an alleged chat with a pal in a pub?

FIEND'S 'BRAG' German paedo suspect ‘boasted to a friend in a pub about snatching Madeleine McCann’
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/11786866/german-paedo-boast-snatch-maddie/
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on June 25, 2021, 10:45:00 PM
The first guy sounds like Martin Ney.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Ney

Re the second (presumably Bruckner), is this private chatroom anything more than an alleged chat with a pal in a pub?

FIEND'S 'BRAG' German paedo suspect ‘boasted to a friend in a pub about snatching Madeleine McCann’
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/11786866/german-paedo-boast-snatch-maddie/
“PAEDOPHILE CHATROOM
Police also believe they have Brueckner talking in a paedophile chatroom in 2013 about how "bad" he wanted to abuse a little girl.

In the disturbing audio, which aired on 60 Minutes, Brueckner claims to have said if the "evidence is destroyed", he will "document exactly how they will be tortured".

"He's very, very clear about his fantasy, about abducting children and torturing them and using them for a couple of days. So these are very clear words," Hoffman said.”

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/inside-the-depraved-world-of-christian-brueckner-suspect-in-maddie-mccann-case/USAZBN3JXF4TB5M27LT4V45O2A/

Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on June 25, 2021, 10:47:49 PM
The horrific case posted by Brietta demonstrates that children can be abducted from their beds without waking and scremaing the place down.  It also demonstrates that they can be abducted even with their carers present in the house. 
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on June 25, 2021, 11:02:25 PM
The horrific case posted by Brietta demonstrates that children can be abducted from their beds without waking and screaming the place down.  It also demonstrates that they can be abducted even with their carers present in the house.

There are indeed some horrendously evil people around and being naïve about their existence allows them free rein.

Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on June 26, 2021, 11:29:51 AM
German police have 'solved 90 per cent' of the Madeleine McCann case and are 'very convinced' Christian Brueckner is responsible
21 July 2020
Dieter Fehlinger, father of Brueckner's alleged 'ex-lover', said he spoke to police
Brueckner is prime suspect in the kidnap and murder of Madeleine McCann, 3
Mr Fehlinger said police 'seemed ­to be convinced that Christian B was their man'
Daughter Nicole has always maintained she hardly knew the serial sex offender

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8543033/German-police-solved-90-cent-Madeleine-McCann-case.html


Madeleine McCann suspect and ex had secret Portugal compound guarded by fierce dogs
25 JUN 2021
Nicole Fehlinger’s father Dieter went back to speak to the German equivalent of the FBI for a second time.
Prosecutors have confirmed he gave a lengthy interview and that they are seriously examining this new lead.

Nicole lived in Portugal at the time with Brueckner, ...

Mr Fehlinger has told investigators that Nicole and Brueckner had a secret compound on the Algarve which no-one else had been aware of.

Mr Fehlinger said: “No one knows that my daughter not only had the private residence in Portugal at her disposal, but also a separate compound.

“No-one has ever searched there or the property has never turned up in connection with Maddie, Brueckner or Nicole.

“The area is completely overgrown, not visible. No one could get in or out, only my daughter and perhaps Brueckner with her.”

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/madeleine-mcann-police-told-suspect-24400965


Did Mr Fehlinger know about the property in 2020 when he gave his first statement to the police.  Or has he only found out about it more recently one wonders.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Myster on June 26, 2021, 12:03:59 PM
It's the 100m long by 50m wide rectangular area with patchy vegetation directly south of the White House (89) in Foral...

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Foral,+Algoz,+Portugal/@37.1927982,-8.2569568,149m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0xd1ac59bc719ce87:0x1c13350cfb8da65a!8m2!3d37.1949777!4d-8.2577792 (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Foral,+Algoz,+Portugal/@37.1927982,-8.2569568,149m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0xd1ac59bc719ce87:0x1c13350cfb8da65a!8m2!3d37.1949777!4d-8.2577792)
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: jassi on June 26, 2021, 12:17:05 PM
It's the 100m long by 50m wide rectangular area with patchy vegetation directly south of the White House (89) in Foral...

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Foral,+Algoz,+Portugal/@37.1927982,-8.2569568,149m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0xd1ac59bc719ce87:0x1c13350cfb8da65a!8m2!3d37.1949777!4d-8.2577792 (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Foral,+Algoz,+Portugal/@37.1927982,-8.2569568,149m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0xd1ac59bc719ce87:0x1c13350cfb8da65a!8m2!3d37.1949777!4d-8.2577792)

Doesn't look to be totally enclosed, if I'm looking at the correct area, only boundary walls to north & south.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: barrier on June 26, 2021, 12:19:09 PM
Doesn't look to be totally enclosed, if I'm looking at the correct area, only boundary walls to north & south.

Was it secure enough to keep them beasties in ?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Wonderfulspam on June 26, 2021, 12:19:27 PM
I think Brueckner might have been to a pub, ate at a restaurant & used a public toilet at least once in his life.

Have these places been searched yet?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Wonderfulspam on June 26, 2021, 12:25:26 PM
Was it secure enough to keep them beasties in ?

Wait a minute.

Maybe Brueckners girlfriends dogs were the same vicious animals that tried mauling Kate to death?

He set them on her!
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: jassi on June 26, 2021, 12:27:21 PM
I think Brueckner might have been to a pub, ate at a restaurant & used a public toilet at least once in his life.

Have these places been searched yet?

Fret not, it's on the 'to do' list when all else has failed.  8(0(*
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: jassi on June 26, 2021, 12:41:45 PM
Was it secure enough to keep them beasties in ?

Doesn't look like it. It seems to be part of a larger unenclosed area, some of it cultivated.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on June 26, 2021, 04:19:04 PM
Doesn't look like it. It seems to be part of a larger unenclosed area, some of it cultivated.

No-one's mentioned dogs there when Nicole F was in residence. The owner of the property had a lot of dogs as I recall...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scPh64slUbs
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: jassi on June 26, 2021, 04:49:48 PM
Good story for the tabloids though. After all, who's going to refute it even if untrue?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on June 26, 2021, 05:12:24 PM
No-one's mentioned dogs there when Nicole F was in residence. The owner of the property had a lot of dogs as I recall...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scPh64slUbs
Well either
1) her dad is lying
2) her dad has Alzheimers
3) the Mirror completely made it up
4) It’s true.

For some reason it’s been necessary to ridicule the idea that there were 4 fierce dogs guarding the property- I suppose in the absence of anything else to heap scorn on today it will do to keep little minds amused.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Wonderfulspam on June 26, 2021, 05:34:11 PM
Well either
1) her dad is lying
2) her dad has Alzheimers
3) the Mirror completely made it up
4) It’s true.

For some reason it’s been necessary to ridicule the idea that there were 4 fierce dogs guarding the property- I suppose in the absence of anything else to heap scorn on today it will do to keep little minds amused.

That's because it is a ridiculous non-story.

Tabloid guff.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on June 26, 2021, 05:37:05 PM
That's because it is a ridiculous non-story.

Tabloid guff.
It’s certainly woken up the trolls.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on June 26, 2021, 06:11:23 PM
If the Germans told us a year ago that Madeleine's case was 90% solved I think it means that all that is missing is proof positive of Brueckner's or AN other's or Brueckner + AN other's involvement.

But I think they will get there if they're not there already.

It looks very much as though Dieter Fehlinger has managed to recall information he didn't pass on a year ago.  If he can do that who is to say there won't be others.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on June 26, 2021, 06:33:51 PM
Well either
1) her dad is lying
2) her dad has Alzheimers
3) the Mirror completely made it up
4) It’s true.

For some reason it’s been necessary to ridicule the idea that there were 4 fierce dogs guarding the property- I suppose in the absence of anything else to heap scorn on today it will do to keep little minds amused.

It isn't unusual either in Portugal or in any remote and secluded area worldwide to have big business type dogs roaming free on your property.

Mrs Murat is an example.

It is so predictable that everyone and everything outwith the sceptic lexicon is subject to sceptic scorn ~ so utterly predictable the only surprise would be their failure to do so.

If there were three or four large dogs prowling around on land we are told Brueckner had access to it means that when he was away 'on business' or in jail someone had to be there on occasion to look after them and check on whatever their presence denotes was being guarded.
They weren't guarding the scrub on the wasteland that is for sure.

I think this new information is interesting from many points of view ~ which is why there is such an obvious and concerted effort to deflect attention.
Doesn't matter a bit though what shenanigans internet detectives get themselves up to ~ the big boys better known as the real detectives will have it well marked and are probably working on that and other information even as the sceptics continue their self delusion the spectacle of which I am finding far more amusing than anything else. 
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Wonderfulspam on June 26, 2021, 06:42:37 PM
It isn't unusual either in Portugal or in any remote and secluded area worldwide to have big business type dogs roaming free on your property.

Mrs Murat is an example.

It is so predictable that everyone and everything outwith the sceptic lexicon is subject to sceptic scorn ~ so utterly predictable the only surprise would be their failure to do so.

If there were three or four large dogs prowling around on land we are told Brueckner had access to it means that when he was away 'on business' or in jail someone had to be there on occasion to look after them and check on whatever their presence denotes was being guarded.
They weren't guarding the scrub on the wasteland that is for sure.

I think this new information is interesting from many points of view ~ which is why there is such an obvious and concerted effort to deflect attention.
Doesn't matter a bit though what shenanigans internet detectives get themselves up to ~ the big boys better known as the real detectives will have it well marked and are probably working on that and other information even as the sceptics continue their self delusion the spectacle of which I am finding far more amusing than anything else.

When were we told Brueckner had access to this land?

I didn't read that anywhere in the article.


Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: jassi on June 26, 2021, 06:47:05 PM
It isn't unusual either in Portugal or in any remote and secluded area worldwide to have big business type dogs roaming free on your property.

Mrs Murat is an example.

It is so predictable that everyone and everything outwith the sceptic lexicon is subject to sceptic scorn ~ so utterly predictable the only surprise would be their failure to do so.

If there were three or four large dogs prowling around on land we are told Brueckner had access to it means that when he was away 'on business' or in jail someone had to be there on occasion to look after them and check on whatever their presence denotes was being guarded.
They weren't guarding the scrub on the wasteland that is for sure.

I think this new information is interesting from many points of view ~ which is why there is such an obvious and concerted effort to deflect attention.
Doesn't matter a bit though what shenanigans internet detectives get themselves up to ~ the big boys better known as the real detectives will have it well marked and are probably working on that and other information even as the sceptics continue their self delusion the spectacle of which I am finding far more amusing than anything else.

I thought they were generally known as Fat Cats   8)--))
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on June 26, 2021, 06:54:50 PM
When were we told Brueckner had access to this land?

I didn't read that anywhere in the article.
Then your comprehension skills are pathetic "Mr Fehlinger has told investigators that Nicole and Brueckner had a secret compound on the Algarve which no-one else had been aware of."
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: jassi on June 26, 2021, 07:06:53 PM
Unless Myster is wrong, it's been shown to be a piece of open scrub land.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Wonderfulspam on June 26, 2021, 07:09:24 PM
Then your comprehension skills are pathetic "Mr Fehlinger has told investigators that Nicole and Brueckner had a secret compound on the Algarve which no-one else had been aware of."

According to the Mail.....

"compound owned by the ex-girlfriend"

Not Brueckner.

"The area was so overgrown, Mr Fehlinger reportedly said, that no one would be able to get in or out, other than his daughter and perhaps her then-boyfriend." 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9727235/Madeline-McCann-Detectives-searching-girl-investigate-new-tip-secret-compound.html

Anyway, about your comprehension skills................
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on June 26, 2021, 08:30:10 PM
According to the Mail.....

"compound owned by the ex-girlfriend"

Not Brueckner.

"The area was so overgrown, Mr Fehlinger reportedly said, that no one would be able to get in or out, other than his daughter and perhaps her then-boyfriend." 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9727235/Madeline-McCann-Detectives-searching-girl-investigate-new-tip-secret-compound.html

Anyway, about your comprehension skills................
Nothing at all wrong with my comprehension.
As I said ~ Brueckner had access ~ much as he had access to many other areas in Portugal and Europe where he was free to come and go and do pretty much as he liked throughout his criminal career.

We know that one was used to store the proceeds of some of his crimes.  We know that in another he had stored evidence of his paedophilia.

I imagine investigators will have more than a passing interest in any area identified as having a connection to Breuckner prior to 2007 and onwards.
Obviously Mr Fehlinger thinks so too or he wouldn't have bothered the German police with his recent recollection of his daughter's property, which seems to have also slipped her mind when Brueckner was declared as prime suspect in Madeleine's disappearance 😁
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Wonderfulspam on June 26, 2021, 08:55:34 PM
Nothing at all wrong with my comprehension.
As I said ~ Brueckner had access ~ much as he had access to many other areas in Portugal and Europe where he was free to come and go and do pretty much as he liked throughout his criminal career.

We know that one was used to store the proceeds of some of his crimes.  We know that in another he had stored evidence of his paedophilia.

I imagine investigators will have more than a passing interest in any area identified as having a connection to Breuckner prior to 2007 and onwards.
Obviously Mr Fehlinger thinks so too or he wouldn't have bothered the German police with his recent recollection of his daughter's property, which seems to have also slipped her mind when Brueckner was declared as prime suspect in Madeleine's disappearance 😁

"Brueckner had access"

Where in the interview does Mr Fehlinger say that?





Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on June 26, 2021, 09:06:09 PM
"Brueckner had access"

Where in the interview does Mr Fehlinger say that?

I'm bored with you now.  Please forgive me if I don't respond to any more of your nonsense for the time being 😁
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Wonderfulspam on June 26, 2021, 09:20:04 PM
I'm bored with you now.  Please forgive me if I don't respond to any more of your nonsense for the time being 😁

Well I'm sorry you are bored with the detail, but nowhere in either the mirror or the mail article is there any claim Brueckner had access to this property owned, not by him, but by his girlfriend.

Mr Felingher himself said 'perhaps' Brueckner could get in there .

He doesn't even know himself, but you do apparently.

Like I said earlier today, perhaps Brueckner went to pizza hut once.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on June 26, 2021, 10:00:17 PM
Well I'm sorry you are bored with the detail, but nowhere in either the mirror or the mail article is there any claim Brueckner had access to this property owned, not by him, but by his girlfriend.

Mr Felingher himself said 'perhaps' Brueckner could get in there .

He doesn't even know himself, but you do apparently.

Like I said earlier today, perhaps Brueckner went to pizza hut once.
You’re right.  He probably had no access to his girlfriend’s property.  That’s probably why she had the dogs - to make sure her horrible rapist paedo boyfriend stayed away. 
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Anthro on June 26, 2021, 10:03:46 PM
Well I'm sorry you are bored with the detail, but nowhere in either the mirror or the mail article is there any claim Brueckner had access to this property owned, not by him, but by his girlfriend.

Mr Felingher himself said 'perhaps' Brueckner could get in there .

He doesn't even know himself, but you do apparently.

Like I said earlier today, perhaps Brueckner went to pizza hut once.
By implication, Brückner had access to the named compound?
‘Mr Fehlinger has told investigators that Nicole and Brueckner had a secret compound on the Algarve which no-one else had been aware of’.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on June 26, 2021, 11:06:48 PM
You’re right.  He probably had no access to his girlfriend’s property.  That’s probably why she had the dogs - to make sure her horrible rapist paedo boyfriend stayed away.

I thought she had a live-in boyfriend and it wasn't Brueckner?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on June 26, 2021, 11:10:28 PM
I thought she had a live-in boyfriend and it wasn't Brueckner?
was she two-timing him then?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on June 26, 2021, 11:15:03 PM
It would seem the Portuguese media are in on the plot to link these two together and blacken their names by association

Court documents in Portugal have revealed that she had regular phone conversations with Brueckner and enjoyed a romantic weekend break in Lisbon together – just months after Madeleine disappeared in May 2007.

Nicole Fehlinger was accused of tipping off the German drifter so he could steal a family’s life-savings from a house along the coast from Praia da Luz in November 2007.

Portuguese TV investigation show Friday at Nine reported: ‘As in the Maddie case, the phone call took place just before the crime, signalling that the house was free.

‘A man who neighbours have described as being Christian Brueckner made a phone call and left with a ruck sack from which hung a heavy tool.”
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8536519/Pictured-Girlfriend-accomplice-McCann-suspect-seen-time-unmasked.html
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on June 26, 2021, 11:17:21 PM
So which house is she referring to here then?

‘One day I came home and he was in my neighbour’s garden and they were talking about cars.

‘My neighbour told me he was German and he introduced me. Because we are both German we started talking.

‘Sometime later he asked if he could park his campervan outside my house. He asked if he could take water and some electricity. I said why not.’

Fehlinger, who was looking after troubled children as part of a German fostering programme, added: ‘He came into the house sometimes – for something to eat and to watch over the children.

‘I was not interested in him. I had my own boyfriend at the time. But I cannot say that he was not interested in me.’
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Wonderfulspam on June 27, 2021, 09:58:56 AM


Ms Fehlinger should be arrested.

She had access to Brueckners kid porn.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on June 27, 2021, 10:05:16 AM

Ms Fehlinger should be arrested.

She had access to Brueckners kid porn.
Did she?  How do you work that one out?  I thought it was buried under a dead dog in Germany.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Wonderfulspam on June 27, 2021, 10:08:04 AM
Did she?  How do you work that one out?  I thought it was buried under a dead dog in Germany.

Well it's been claimed Brueckner had access to Felhingers property by way of dating her.




Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on June 27, 2021, 10:22:10 AM
Well it's been claimed Brueckner had access to Felhingers property by way of dating her.


Fehlinger has stated as fact that Brückner had access to her property, (and more worryingly  her kids).  You may wish to ridicule that fact but fact it is nonetheless.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Wonderfulspam on June 27, 2021, 10:29:17 AM
Fehlinger has stated as fact that Brückner had access to her property, (and more worryingly  her kids).  You may wish to ridicule that fact but fact it is nonetheless.

Did she mention her secret property?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Anthro on June 27, 2021, 11:22:58 AM
So which house is she referring to here then?

‘One day I came home and he was in my neighbour’s garden and they were talking about cars.

‘My neighbour told me he was German and he introduced me. Because we are both German we started talking.

‘Sometime later he asked if he could park his campervan outside my house. He asked if he could take water and some electricity. I said why not.’

Fehlinger, who was looking after troubled children as part of a German fostering programme, added: ‘He came into the house sometimes – for something to eat and to watch over the children.

‘I was not interested in him. I had my own boyfriend at the time. But I cannot say that he was not interested in me.’
Yes, the boyfriend’s name is Roman.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on June 27, 2021, 11:46:03 AM
So which house is she referring to here then?

‘One day I came home and he was in my neighbour’s garden and they were talking about cars.

‘My neighbour told me he was German and he introduced me. Because we are both German we started talking.

‘Sometime later he asked if he could park his campervan outside my house. He asked if he could take water and some electricity. I said why not.’

Fehlinger, who was looking after troubled children as part of a German fostering programme, added: ‘He came into the house sometimes – for something to eat and to watch over the children.

‘I was not interested in him. I had my own boyfriend at the time. But I cannot say that he was not interested in me.’

Did you notice that these words weren't actually spoken by Fehlinger?

"The 'ex-lover' of Madeleine McCann suspect Christian Brueckner today refused to answer questions about her, when challenged to tell the truth by MailOnline...Nicole Fehlinger allegedly told a friend"

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8536519/Pictured-Girlfriend-accomplice-McCann-suspect-seen-time-unmasked.html

So it was an anonymous friend who alleged that she said those things.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: jassi on June 27, 2021, 11:59:44 AM
Did you notice that these words weren't actually spoken by Fehlinger?

"The 'ex-lover' of Madeleine McCann suspect Christian Brueckner today refused to answer questions about her, when challenged to tell the truth by MailOnline...Nicole Fehlinger allegedly told a friend"

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8536519/Pictured-Girlfriend-accomplice-McCann-suspect-seen-time-unmasked.html

So it was an anonymous friend who alleged that she said those things.

So often the way with this case.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Anthro on June 27, 2021, 12:01:24 PM
Perhaps these are the German Shepherd dogs the article is referring to (?)
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8396679/amp/Owner-villa-Madeleine-McCann-murder-suspect-lived-urges-police-search-grounds.html
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on June 27, 2021, 12:10:25 PM

Is this not The Compound that Sadie referred to some time ago and appeared to know quite a lot about?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: barrier on June 27, 2021, 12:16:03 PM
Perhaps these are the German Shepherd dogs the article is referring to (?)
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8396679/amp/Owner-villa-Madeleine-McCann-murder-suspect-lived-urges-police-search-grounds.html

Vicious Kangal dogs they are not, it'll be Cerberus or even Fluffy next.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: jassi on June 27, 2021, 12:21:32 PM
https://www.google.com/search?q=kangal+dogs&safe=off&client=firefox-b-d&sxsrf=ALeKk0240VXQSLTP5oW6qHTaqLhVvDzvSA:1624792688351&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj58Ja42LfxAhXZVRUIHbEbAUsQ_AUoAXoECAEQBA&biw=1279&bih=751


Big brutes, aren't they ?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on June 27, 2021, 12:26:30 PM
Perhaps these are the German Shepherd dogs the article is referring to (?)
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8396679/amp/Owner-villa-Madeleine-McCann-murder-suspect-lived-urges-police-search-grounds.html

Dogs which are associated with the owner, who makes no mention of inheriting them from her tenant;

Silva now shares the property called Villa Bianca with eight rescue dogs who repeatedly run and jump up at wrought iron gates when people walk past.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8396679/amp/Owner-villa-Madeleine-McCann-murder-suspect-lived-urges-police-search-grounds.html
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Lace on June 27, 2021, 12:36:04 PM
Perhaps these are the German Shepherd dogs the article is referring to (?)
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8396679/amp/Owner-villa-Madeleine-McCann-murder-suspect-lived-urges-police-search-grounds.html

Is that a recent photo?   If so it wouldn't be the dogs they mentioned the dogs would have been there 14 years ago and so would be dead by now.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Myster on June 27, 2021, 12:49:34 PM
Perhaps these are the German Shepherd dogs the article is referring to (?)
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8396679/amp/Owner-villa-Madeleine-McCann-murder-suspect-lived-urges-police-search-grounds.html (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8396679/amp/Owner-villa-Madeleine-McCann-murder-suspect-lived-urges-police-search-grounds.html)
There's a worn out, broken-down sceptic tank in one of the photos... much like the one that still exists on here.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on June 27, 2021, 12:54:45 PM
Is that a recent photo?   If so it wouldn't be the dogs they mentioned the dogs would have been there 14 years ago and so would be dead by now.

Well, not necessarily dead by now, but certainly on their last legs.  Someone else appears to own that compound now.

The point being that this was ignored at the time.  Or are there two compounds?  Both of which need looking at.

Brueckner seems to have parked his camper van somewhere.  Well, he would have had to, wouldn't he.

I find the analysis of Davel entirely pertinent, although not necessarily correct.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on June 27, 2021, 12:58:47 PM
There's a worn out, broken-down sceptic tank in one of the photos... much like the one that still exists on here.

It never ceases to amaze me of how many bodies get found in Sceptic Tanks.  Pun intended, as no doubt was yours.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on June 27, 2021, 01:22:50 PM
Did she mention her secret property?
Maybe.  I take it you would much rather this area was not searched.  Maybe the McCanns knew about it, eh?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on June 27, 2021, 01:24:31 PM
Perhaps these are the German Shepherd dogs the article is referring to (?)
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8396679/amp/Owner-villa-Madeleine-McCann-murder-suspect-lived-urges-police-search-grounds.html

Don't think I would stick my big toe over the boundary of their compound unless I had an invitation.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on June 27, 2021, 01:28:51 PM
Did you notice that these words weren't actually spoken by Fehlinger?

"The 'ex-lover' of Madeleine McCann suspect Christian Brueckner today refused to answer questions about her, when challenged to tell the truth by MailOnline...Nicole Fehlinger allegedly told a friend"

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8536519/Pictured-Girlfriend-accomplice-McCann-suspect-seen-time-unmasked.html

So it was an anonymous friend who alleged that she said those things.
So where did you get the idea she had another boyfriend at the time?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on June 27, 2021, 01:29:13 PM
Is this not The Compound that Sadie referred to some time ago and appeared to know quite a lot about?

I know that Sadie and her husband thought it best to make an exit tout suite.  She did refer to the presence of children and she thought they might have been in some kind of care as in orphanage or something.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on June 27, 2021, 01:29:41 PM
Don't think I would stick my big toe over the boundary of their compound unless I had an invitation.

And nor would Amaral, apparently.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on June 27, 2021, 01:35:09 PM
I wonder why Fehlinger hasn’t sued the media about all these allegedly false stories about her in the media.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on June 27, 2021, 01:39:11 PM
And nor would Amaral, apparently.

As far as he was concerned he had his woman stitched up.  Interestingly enough the ubiquitous former coordinator has been rather conspicuous of late by his absence from current events.

I think between Brueckner, Herr Felhinger and others breaking their silence and Amaral keeping schtum I'm getting the impression that the German investigation is doing some hard hitting.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on June 27, 2021, 01:42:40 PM
I wonder why Fehlinger hasn’t sued the media about all these allegedly false stories about her in the media.

I think the media are treading warily here ~ the caveat printed speaks volumes and is a privilege the McCanns never enjoyed.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on June 27, 2021, 01:47:41 PM
I think the media are treading warily here ~ the caveat printed speaks volumes and is a privilege the McCanns never enjoyed.
Well I reckon she bears a physical resemblance to the Posh Spice photofit, so sue me.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on June 27, 2021, 02:01:39 PM
Well I reckon she bears a physical resemblance to the Posh Spice photofit, so sue me.

It is heart breaking to think of the investigative opportunities which were bypassed because the PJ just didn't have a clue about how to deal with a missing child case.

Getting bogged down in mistakes built around Calpol - 'the scent of death' and trying to build a case on prejudice and not evidence gave no hope of resolution.
Even yet so many years after Amaral still pushes his ludicrous opinions in television interviews as far as I could see with no challenge, when the rest of the world awaits for the results of the German investigation.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Anthro on June 27, 2021, 02:22:00 PM
Dogs which are associated with the owner, who makes no mention of inheriting them from her tenant;

Silva now shares the property called Villa Bianca with eight rescue dogs who repeatedly run and jump up at wrought iron gates when people walk past.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8396679/amp/Owner-villa-Madeleine-McCann-murder-suspect-lived-urges-police-search-grounds.html
They may be offspring, though (?)
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on June 27, 2021, 04:01:22 PM
It is heart breaking to think of the investigative opportunities which were bypassed because the PJ just didn't have a clue about how to deal with a missing child case.

Getting bogged down in mistakes built around Calpol - 'the scent of death' and trying to build a case on prejudice and not evidence gave no hope of resolution.
Even yet so many years after Amaral still pushes his ludicrous opinions in television interviews as far as I could see with no challenge, when the rest of the world awaits for the results of the German investigation.

If only the world would just wait for the results of the German investigation. Instead there's speculation, gossip, and innuendo. We know the Germans don't have the evidence they need to charge their suspect because they've said so.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: jassi on June 27, 2021, 04:04:19 PM
If only the world would just wait for the results of the German investigation. Instead there's speculation, gossip, and innuendo. We know the Germans don't have the evidence they need to charge their suspect because they've said so.

Indeed yes, all of this may be nothing more than red herrings, as have all the other 'leads'
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on June 27, 2021, 04:12:08 PM
If only the world would just wait for the results of the German investigation. Instead there's speculation, gossip, and innuendo. We know the Germans don't have the evidence they need to charge their suspect because they've said so.
Yeah, like McCann sceptics aka "serious researchers" never indulged in that in the last 14 years.  The lack of self awareness is breathtaking!
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on June 27, 2021, 04:17:56 PM
If only the world would just wait for the results of the German investigation. Instead there's speculation, gossip, and innuendo. We know the Germans don't have the evidence they need to charge their suspect because they've said so.

Like what The PJ did do you mean?  Now there's a laugh.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on June 27, 2021, 04:28:47 PM
Yeah, like McCann sceptics aka "serious researchers" never indulged in that in the last 14 years.  The lack of self awareness is breathtaking!

This really isn't worth the time of day.

But since The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann is now being forced into this discussion I do think that we have to consider what they have to say.

In fact I would start a Thread myself if I thought it might help.

Is anyone else up for this?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: jassi on June 27, 2021, 07:04:47 PM
Oh Dear.  You could be right about that.  I never diid know why I was dropped from that Site.  But I haven't looked at that one for years either.  Does anyone?

No idea. I find this place more than enough.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on June 27, 2021, 07:16:38 PM
No idea. I find this place more than enough.

Me too also. Gulp.

But this is what The UK Justice Forum tries to do.  I just get a bit shirty now and again when confronted by too much bottox.

You all will have to forgive me for that.

And I certainly wouldn't want to see the loss of you.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on June 27, 2021, 07:57:12 PM
Yeah, like McCann sceptics aka "serious researchers" never indulged in that in the last 14 years.  The lack of self awareness is breathtaking!

So it's OK because 'they' do it too?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on June 27, 2021, 08:06:31 PM
So it's OK because 'they' do it too?
Did I say that?  Tell you what - practice what you preach and don’t write another word on the case until the German investigation has been concluded, can you?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on June 27, 2021, 08:59:43 PM
Did I say that?  Tell you what - practice what you preach and don’t write another word on the case until the German investigation has been concluded, can you?

I'll be posting the known facts as I usually do. Which are that Wolters, at this moment, doesn't have the evidence he needs to charge his suspect.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Anthro on June 27, 2021, 09:23:51 PM
I'll be posting the known facts as I usually do. Which are that Wolters, at this moment, doesn't have the evidence he needs to charge his suspect.
My understanding is that Mr Wolters has enough evidence but since Brückner is already imprisoned, he is using the opportunity to gather more information. It was said that his team will be bringing a witness back to Portugal to assist in their investigation. This person may well be Dieter, Nicole’s father. Questioning a suspect is the last step in German law. Ps. Nicole’s daughter is no longer on facebook. Dieter has also changed his privacy settings.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on June 27, 2021, 09:39:10 PM
I'll be posting the known facts as I usually do. Which are that Wolters, at this moment, doesn't have the evidence he needs to charge his suspect.
Instead of speculating about whether or not the investigation has made headway (a discussion which you engaged in and encouraged recently) you could just wait and see couldn’t you?  Also, your posting of “known facts” is very selective imo.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Davel on June 27, 2021, 09:45:24 PM
I'll be posting the known facts as I usually do. Which are that Wolters, at this moment, doesn't have the evidence he needs to charge his suspect.

Its not an established fact that Wolters does not have enough evidence to charge CB
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on June 27, 2021, 10:01:09 PM
My understanding is that Mr Wolters has enough evidence but since Brückner is already imprisoned, he is using the opportunity to gather more information. It was said that his team will be bringing a witness back to Portugal to assist in their investigation. This person may well be Dieter, Nicole’s father. Questioning a suspect is the last step in German law. Ps. Nicole’s daughter is no longer on facebook. Dieter has also changed his privacy settings.

Has Wolters said he has enough evidence? I must have missed that. Such a wide spectrum of opinion about all this. I'm with Mick Neville;

“There’s nothing, there’s no tangible evidence whatsoever connecting him to the crime.

“He’s a reasonable suspect, given he’s looking at child pornography and the fact we know we know he was in the area with a vehicle but that’s about it really.”
https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/madeleine-mccann-detectives-only-hope-24090479
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: John on June 27, 2021, 10:06:19 PM
Please stay on topic guys. Cheers !
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on June 27, 2021, 10:09:33 PM
Has Wolters said he has enough evidence? I must have missed that. Such a wide spectrum of opinion about all this. I'm with Mick Neville;

“There’s nothing, there’s no tangible evidence whatsoever connecting him to the crime.

“He’s a reasonable suspect, given he’s looking at child pornography and the fact we know we know he was in the area with a vehicle but that’s about it really.”
https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/madeleine-mccann-detectives-only-hope-24090479
Is Mick Neville being briefed on progress by the Germans then?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on June 27, 2021, 10:27:23 PM
I'll be posting the known facts as I usually do. Which are that Wolters, at this moment, doesn't have the evidence he needs to charge his suspect.

I think it highly probable that you are confusing your opinion with fact.  Mr Wolters has been playing his cards very close to his chest of late and at this moment you really do not know what evidence he may have.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Davel on June 27, 2021, 10:32:33 PM
Has Wolters said he has enough evidence? I must have missed that. Such a wide spectrum of opinion about all this. I'm with Mick Neville;

“There’s nothing, there’s no tangible evidence whatsoever connecting him to the crime.

“He’s a reasonable suspect, given he’s looking at child pornography and the fact we know we know he was in the area with a vehicle but that’s about it really.”
https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/madeleine-mccann-detectives-only-hope-24090479

You said you were posting known facts and then quote someone's opinion as reported in the Star.. How does this idiot thinks he knows what Wolters has
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on June 27, 2021, 10:34:40 PM
You said you were posting known facts and then quote someone's opinion as reported in the Star.. How does this idiot thinks he knows what Wolters has
To quote someone else on this forum, he’s just another hustler making a buck.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on June 27, 2021, 11:05:52 PM
You said you were posting known facts and then quote someone's opinion as reported in the Star.. How does this idiot thinks he knows what Wolters has

What he said is what we know Wolters has. All else is speculation.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Davel on June 27, 2021, 11:20:22 PM
What he said is what we know Wolters has. All else is speculation.

It depends how you interptet what he says... And understand the context. Wolters may well have enough to charge..but wants more. Therefore it is not an established fact
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Wonderfulspam on June 28, 2021, 08:58:20 AM
It depends how you interptet what he says... And understand the context. Wolters may well have enough to charge..but wants more. Therefore it is not an established fact

It isn't a fact Wolters has evidence.

It's a fact that he claims to have evidence.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: jassi on June 28, 2021, 09:02:36 AM
To be honest with you ~ I cannot say I have noticed anything but negativity emanating from you and certainly no desire to make contributions as your deflections and non sequiturs style of posting gets in the way.
Once again you have successfully deflected discussion into inanity.  It is not adult and I cannot help but imagine it may very well be by design.

There is quite a lot going on in Madeleine's case at the moment.  Much of which can only be surmised about for the simple reason hers is an active case and the police are playing their cards very close to their chests ~ perhaps or particularly, even their Aces.
Please take part in discussion when it suits you to but please don't continue to throw jemmys into the works either when it suits you - it is becoming inordinately tiresome and in my opinion unfair to other posters.

Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn what you think.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on June 28, 2021, 09:18:15 AM
It depends how you interptet what he says... And understand the context. Wolters may well have enough to charge..but wants more. Therefore it is not an established fact

Interpretation is just another word for opinion imo.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on June 28, 2021, 09:22:27 AM
Here endeth today's lesson in semantics (one hopes). 
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on June 28, 2021, 09:25:16 AM
Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn what you think.
Hmm...you cared enough to reply though.  How about you send Brietta to Coventry too like you have done to me, that way you needn't trouble yourself to think up new ways to be insulting?  Hope this helps.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Wonderfulspam on June 28, 2021, 09:45:08 AM
Maybe.  I take it you would much rather this area was not searched.  Maybe the McCanns knew about it, eh?

Sorry, I've only just seen your reply.

Yes, I think they really should finger tip search Ms Felinghers secret property that Brueckner may or may not have visited & may or may not have even known existed.

It will give me something else to sneer at when they inevitably find absolutely nothing in connection with Maddie.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on June 28, 2021, 10:04:51 AM
Please note ~ I will be deleting all off topic posts or any which don't meet with forum etiquette.  Thank you.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Davel on June 28, 2021, 10:08:44 AM
Interpretation is just another word for opinion imo.

Neither are facts
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on June 28, 2021, 10:23:44 AM
Sorry, I've only just seen your reply.

Yes, I think they really should finger tip search Ms Felinghers secret property that Brueckner may or may not have visited & may or may not have even known existed.

It will give me something else to sneer at when they inevitably find absolutely nothing in connection with Maddie.
Child.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on June 28, 2021, 10:29:11 AM
Here endeth today's lesson in semantics (one hopes).

Define semantics.

This is fact;

"We are making progress and have the same number of investigators working on the case, but we don't yet have enough to charge the suspect."
https://news.sky.com/story/madeleine-mccann-police-have-been-investigating-prime-suspect-in-case-for-four-years-12324624

Which has been interpreted as;

snip/

"Wolters may well have enough to charge..but wants more."

That is wishful thinking imo.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on June 28, 2021, 10:51:42 AM
"Define semantics"  @)(++(*
I find it interesting that you are now ascribing the word "fact" to describe everything that HCW says.  So, when he says (words to the effect of) "if you knew what the evidence was you would accept that CB was responsible for taking Madeleine" you accept that is a fact do you?   Somehow I doubt it. 
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Davel on June 28, 2021, 11:13:13 AM
Define semantics.

This is fact;

"We are making progress and have the same number of investigators working on the case, but we don't yet have enough to charge the suspect."
https://news.sky.com/story/madeleine-mccann-police-have-been-investigating-prime-suspect-in-case-for-four-years-12324624

Which has been interpreted as;

snip/

"Wolters may well have enough to charge..but wants more."

That is wishful thinking imo.

My opinions are based on evidence.
I realise things may be different in Germany but..

Michael Stone was convicted with it seems the only evidence being his confession to another inmate.

Colin Stagg was arrested and tried based on basically no evidence.
Wolters imo.. From his statements.. Has more than there was against either of those but not enough to guarantee s conviction
Thats my opinion and you cannot prove it wrong... Therefore saying he doesnt have enough evidence to charge is not a fact



Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on June 28, 2021, 11:34:53 AM
"Define semantics"  @)(++(*
I find it interesting that you are now ascribing the word "fact" to describe everything that HCW says.  So, when he says (words to the effect of) "if you knew what the evidence was you would accept that CB was responsible for taking Madeleine" you accept that is a fact do you?   Somehow I doubt it.

Difficult to define isn't it?

It's a fact that Wolters has said certain things. It's not a fact that eveything he says is factual. As Brueckner has not been charged it's reasonable to believe that the prosecutor is telling the truth when he says he doesn't have enough evidence to lay charges.

When Wolters says;

 "If you knew the evidence we had you would come to the same conclusion as I do..."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55224904

He's speculating, because he can't possibly predict what others will think.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on June 28, 2021, 11:40:04 AM
Difficult to define isn't it?

It's a fact that Wolters has said certain things. It's not a fact that eveything he says is factual. As Brueckner has not been charged it's reasonable to believe that the prosecutor is telling the truth when he says he doesn't have enough evidence to lay charges.

When Wolters says;

 "If you knew the evidence we had you would come to the same conclusion as I do..."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55224904

He's speculating, because he can't possibly predict what others will think.
Do you accept that he has information that is not in the public domain that (jn his opinion and presumably that of his department) strengthens his case against Bruckner or not?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Davel on June 28, 2021, 12:00:46 PM
Difficult to define isn't it?

It's a fact that Wolters has said certain things. It's not a fact that eveything he says is factual. As Brueckner has not been charged it's reasonable to believe that the prosecutor is telling the truth when he says he doesn't have enough evidence to lay charges.

When Wolters says;

 "If you knew the evidence we had you would come to the same conclusion as I do..."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55224904

He's speculating, because he can't possibly predict what others will think.

It would depend on what evidence he has.... He can predict what others will think depending on the evidencee he has.. So you are speculating.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on June 28, 2021, 12:10:23 PM
It would depend on what evidence he has.... He can predict what others will think depending on the evidencee he has.. So you are speculating.
I can predict that if and when this evidence is revealed (no matter how compelling) that certain individuals will not accept it as evidence that Bruckner committed the crime. 

I wonder if the evidence is a cadaver dog alert to his property - now that would be interesting.  It would be a bit like witnessing the flipping of the magnetic poles.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Davel on June 28, 2021, 12:11:44 PM
Difficult to define isn't it?

It's a fact that Wolters has said certain things. It's not a fact that eveything he says is factual. As Brueckner has not been charged it's reasonable to believe that the prosecutor is telling the truth when he says he doesn't have enough evidence to lay charges.

When Wolters says;

 "If you knew the evidence we had you would come to the same conclusion as I do..."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55224904

He's speculating, because he can't possibly predict what others will think.
The CPS told me in my case.. Not enough evidence to charge but I know as a fact the suspect is guilty and if you knew the evidence I had you would agree
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on June 28, 2021, 12:17:39 PM
Do you accept that he has information that is not in the public domain that (jn his opinion and presumably that of his department) strengthens his case against Bruckner or not?

Wolters certainly seems convinced, by the evidence he claims to have, of his suspect's guilt. That's not enough, however. His job is to prove to a court of law that he's correct. Only time will tell if he can do that.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on June 28, 2021, 12:22:30 PM
Wolters certainly seems convinced, by the evidence he claims to have, of his suspect's guilt. That's not enough, however. His job is to prove to a court of law that he's correct. Only time will tell if he can do that.
You didn't answer my question directly (as per usual).
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Davel on June 28, 2021, 12:24:00 PM
Wolters certainly seems convinced, by the evidence he claims to have, of his suspect's guilt. That's not enough, however. His job is to prove to a court of law that he's correct. Only time will tell if he can do that.

Amaral claimed he could prove MM died in the apartment.. He told us the evidence he had... Which proved nothing.
I have seen nothing to suggest Wolters is so incompetent
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Wonderfulspam on June 28, 2021, 12:49:47 PM
Amaral claimed he could prove MM died in the apartment.. Je told us the evidence he had... Which proved nothing.
I have seen nothing to suggest Wolters is so incompetent

Why?

What evidence does Wolters have?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on June 28, 2021, 02:14:26 PM
You didn't answer my question directly (as per usual).

Afaik I'm under no obligation to answer your many questions.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on June 28, 2021, 03:02:55 PM
Afaik I'm under no obligation to answer your many questions.
You did answer it - only you didn't give a straight answer as per usual, which to me tells me all I need to know, thanks. 
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Davel on June 28, 2021, 03:23:50 PM
Perhaps just wait until Wolters reveals his evidence rather than this constant speculation
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on June 28, 2021, 03:30:12 PM
Perhaps just wait until Wolters reveals his evidence rather than this constant speculation
well exactly.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on July 03, 2021, 11:33:33 AM
‘I’m persecuted’ – Suspect in Madeleine McCann case writes statement from prison cell
June 15 2021 02:30
The German suspect in the disappearance of English toddler Madeleine McCann has released a statement from prison protesting his innocence.

In his first public comment on the case, Christian Bruckner said German prosecutors had failed to bring charges and accused them of persecuting him.

“Charging someone with a crime is one thing. It is something completely different, namely an unbelievable scandal, when a public prosecutor starts a public prejudicial campaign before proceedings are even opened,” the 44-year-old convicted paedophile and rapist said in a handwritten statement issued from his prison cell.

“You have proved worldwide, through arbitrary convictions in the past and through scandalous prejudicial campaigns in the present, that you are unsuitable for the office of an ‘advocate for the honest and German people who trust in justice’, and that you bring shame to the German legal system.”

Bruckner was named as a suspect in the toddler’s disappearance a year ago.

German prosecutors claim they have evidence he killed the child but have yet to bring any charges against him in connection with the case.

Scotland Yard has said it is yet to see any evidence Madeleine is dead or was murdered, and it is still treating her case as a missing person inquiry.

Bruckner is serving a seven-year sentence for the 2005 rape of a 72-year-old woman in the same area of Portugal where Madeleine went missing. A year after Bruckner was named as a suspect, despite extensive searches and public appeals for information, no charges have been brought.

Bruckner called on the two German prosecutors in charge of the case, Hans Christian Wolters and Ute Lindemann, to resign. His statement was accompanied by a crude childish drawing, apparently by Bruckner, of the two prosecutors in a restaurant ordering a “fillet of forensic” – a reference to comments by the prosecutors that they do not have “forensic evidence” linking him to the disappearance.

The statement, dated May 8, has only now been released to the media.

It is signed with Bruckner’s full name, apparently waiving his right to anonymity under German privacy laws.

Madeleine was three when she went missing from a Praia da Luz holiday villa in 2007.

https://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/britain/im-persecuted-suspect-in-madeleine-mccann-case-writes-statement-from-prison-cell-40540010.html


I don't think Brueckner's legal team would have had any role to play in Brueckner's rather rattled communication with the press.
I don't think they would have allowed him to make that elementary error if they had anything to do with it.

Seems the pressure is getting to him anyway, whatever the advice from his lawyers might have been.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 03, 2021, 10:55:33 PM
It would depend on what evidence he has.... He can predict what others will think depending on the evidencee he has.. So you are speculating.

But unless CB is charged it's safe to assume that there is not enough evidence to convict him.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Davel on July 03, 2021, 11:02:11 PM
But unless CB is charged it's safe to assume that there is not enough evidence to convict him.

I dont know if hes guilty... But Wolters may. It is possible to know someone is guilty but not have the evidence  to charge or convict. We need to wait for Wolt to play his hand
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on July 12, 2021, 05:48:14 PM
I dont know if hes guilty... But Wolters may. It is possible to know someone is guilty but not have the evidence  to charge or convict. We need to wait for Wolt to play his hand

Sometimes the forum is well ahead of the game in the discussion of Madeleine's case.  Much as we were when the Topic: Search for Madeleine McCann moves to Greece.
  http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8461.msg422586#msg422586 was opened back in September 2017

It lasted for two pages.  There seems to be a lack of interest in expanding any discussion which is not aimed at traducing the McCanns and dumbing down the forum as a result.

Scotland Yard is looking for Madeleine’s secret in Athens
August 28, 2017
Scotland Yard is looking for the secret of British toddler Madeleine McCann in Athens after a witness contacted the team Grange. A Greek newspaper revealed that a German citizen living in Athens contacted  “Team Grange” claiming he had information about the case as he was in nearby area when 3-year-old Madeleine disappeared from a hotel in Algarve Portugal  in 2007.

According to Sunday newspaper To Vima, the 46-year-old German citizen has already spoken with detectives of Scotland Yard’s “Grange”, a team established in 2011 and assigned with the Madeleine’s case.

The meeting between the British detectives and the German took place in Athens a couple of days  ago, the man reportedly gave critical information about the girl’s fate. He has been described as “important and trustworthy witness.”
https://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/2017/08/28/madeleine-mccann-greece/
 


Thanks to Valeria we had the news first.

Did we bother to treat it with any sort of analytical intelligence or did we just continue with ensuring the main task of assiduously dumbing down the content of the McCann board and threads with the usual vigour.


Madeleine McCann: Police have been investigating prime suspect in case for four years
4 June 2021
Police have been investigating the prime suspect in the Madeleine McCann case for four years, Sky News has learned.

German prosecutor Hans Christian Wolters says police have been looking for information on the main suspect, known as Christian B, for a long time and "had already built up a fact file on him before we asked the public to help us".

A year ago the prosecutor and Scotland Yard announced they had a new suspect and made appeals to anyone who knew him, his movements and lifestyle.

They didn't name the suspect, but it quickly emerged he was a 43-year-old German drifter known, under German privacy laws, as Christian B.

Mr Wolters said: "By that time Christian B had been under investigation already for three years. We did not take the decision to go public lightly.

"Since then we have found a lot more pieces of the puzzle, but I cannot reveal what they are. We are making progress and have the same number of investigators working on the case, but we don't yet have enough to charge the suspect."

He added: "There is no time limit to our investigation, but we won't keep it going forever."

The prosecutor has said in the past he was conducting a murder investigation and that he has evidence that Madeleine died in Portugal, though he hasn't explained to her parents Kate and Gerry McCann why he is so sure.

Christian B was living in Portugal in 2007 when three-year-old Madeleine vanished from her bed in her family's holiday apartment in Praia da Luz on the Algarve coast.

The case against him is circumstantial - he is a convicted paedophile, he lived in the area, on the night she disappeared his mobile phone was in use nearby and the next day he changed the registration of one of his vehicles.

He's also alleged to have confessed that he abducted Madeleine to a criminal associate during a bar conversation.

The associate, who was later arrested in Greece, contacted Scotland Yard and told them of Christian B's alleged confession to him.

Scotland Yard detectives flew to Greece to interview the associate and they later changed the focus of the Madeline investigation.

Christian B is currently serving a seven-year jail sentence in Germany for the rape of an elderly American widow in Portugal in 2005. He denies any involvement in Madeleine's disappearance.

His lawyer Friedrich Fulscher said: "My client is innocent in the Madeleine case. The prosecutor keeps saying he is guilty but he hasn't interviewed him and hasn't shown us any of the evidence he says he has."

Mr Wolters is also investigating Christian B over three other allegations in Portugal: two sex assaults and the rape of an Irish holiday resort worker.

Mr Wolters said: "We are speaking with witnesses and interviewing a lot of people. We are making progress."

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/madeleine-mccann-police-investigating-prime-103500696.html
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on July 16, 2021, 04:10:28 PM
TVI NEWS: POLICE IDENTIFY GERMAN AS FORMAL SUSPECT IN MADDIE'S ABDUCTION AND DEATH
TVI knows that this is a sexual predator who is currently trapped in his country. He's serving time for another case, rape a woman, but he was on Luz Beach when Maddie disappeared.

2020-06-03 19:16   Henry Machado

The Judicial Police (PJ), London Metropolitan Police and German Police (BKA), who have been secretly articulated in recent years, have reached a formal suspect in the abduction and death of Madeleine McCann, an English child who disappeared in May 2007 on Luz beach, Lagos, when she was just three years old.

Over the past 13 years, this is the first time police have taken formal suspicions about a suspect.

This is a 43-year-old German, tvi knows, a sexual predator who is currently trapped in his country. He's serving time for another case, rape a woman, but he was on Luz Beach when Maddie disappeared. This man will have lived in the Algarve between 1996 and 2007, in an apartment about four kilometres from the beach.

The suspect in question, 43 years old, with a criminal record, resided in Portugal between 1996 and 2007 and is currently serving prison time in Germany, "the judicial police statement reads.

There is evidence gathered in recent months that puts him as the alleged perpetrator of the crimes of abduction and murder of Maddie, a child who was vacationing in the Algarve with his parents and friends. As for the mobile of crime, everything points to motives of a sexual nature.

In close coordination with the German (BKA) and English (Metropolitan Police) authorities, in the sharing of information, in carrying out formal acts of investigation and expertise, in Portugal and abroad, elements were collected indictment of the possible intervention, in the disappearance of the child, of a German citizen",adds the document.

The Metropolitan Police, which is investigating the disappearance in an investigation called Operation Grange, has identified a white Volkswagen-branded caravan van that the suspect, who has not been identified, used for a living and also a Jaguar car to which he would have access.

Police also identified two mobile phone numbers, one used by the suspect and who received a call between 7:32 p.m. and 8:02 p.m. on May 3 in the Praia da Luz area, and another that initiated the call and may be a "highly significant witness".

As far as TVI has learned, the McCann couple have already been informed by the British police of the formal suspicions that fall on this German citizen.

https://tvi24.iol.pt/sociedade/maddie-mccann/noticia-tvi

_____________________________________________________________

The Judicial Police (PJ) reopened the investigation in 2013, after the case was filed by the Attorney General's Office in 2008, exonerating the three defendants, Madeleine's parents, Kate and Gerry McCann, and another Briton, Robert Murat.
https://www.tsf.pt/portugal/sociedade/policia-britanica-identificou-suspeito-alemao-no-desaparecimento-de-madeleine-mccann-12273379.html


Just a point regarding the current investigation and the legal status of arguidos when a case is archived.

I have noted on numerous occasions that when the subject arises or is mentioned in passing, that the Portuguese media have absolutely no difficulty with the fact that Kate and Gerry McCann and Robert Murat are innocent of any crime concerning Madeleine. 
As mentioned above, that is how it is seen in Portugal.  Sceptics appear to have jumped on the wrong bandwagon yet again in their denial of the facts in preference for making up their own.

The original "ilibando" in Portuguese which translates into English as "exonerating" (present participle)
(especially of an official body) absolve (someone) from blame for a fault or wrongdoing, especially after due consideration of the case.
synonyms:
absolve · clear · acquit · declare innocent · find innocent · pronounce not guilty · discharge · vindicate · exculpate
Seems clear enough.
___________________________________________________________________________
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 16, 2021, 05:46:48 PM
Obviously TSF didn’t get the sceptic memo stating that the McCanns have not been cleared, tsk tsk.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 18, 2021, 06:35:35 PM
I dont know if hes guilty... But Wolters may. It is possible to know someone is guilty but not have the evidence  to charge or convict. We need to wait for Wolt to play his hand

I'm not an expert in German law but in this country he would be presumed innocent until proven otherwise beyond all reasonable doubt. The proof must be evidential. If Wolters "knows" that CB is guilty he must be basing that knowledge on evidence. So let him put that before a court. What else could he have? A hypothesis? A hunch? How long are you going to wait for?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Davel on July 18, 2021, 06:44:54 PM
I'm not an expert in German law but in this country he would be presumed innocent until proven otherwise beyond all reasonable doubt. The proof must be evidential. If Wolters "knows" that CB is guilty he must be basing that knowledge on evidence. So let him put that before a court. What else could he have? A hypothesis? A hunch? How long are you going to wait for?

Ss I have explained its possible to know as a fact someone is guilty but not be able to prove it in court... Do you accept that
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 18, 2021, 07:08:02 PM
I'm not an expert in German law but in this country he would be presumed innocent until proven otherwise beyond all reasonable doubt. The proof must be evidential. If Wolters "knows" that CB is guilty he must be basing that knowledge on evidence. So let him put that before a court. What else could he have? A hypothesis? A hunch? How long are you going to wait for?
Hopefully he’ll reveal all in his best selling book just as soon as he’s sacked off the case.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on July 18, 2021, 07:59:16 PM
Ss I have explained its possible to know as a fact someone is guilty but not be able to prove it in court... Do you accept that

In which case a prosecutor can't say publicly that his suspect is guilty. Something to do with the presumption of innocence I believe.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Davel on July 18, 2021, 08:11:06 PM
In which case a prosecutor can't say publicly that his suspect is guilty. Something to do with the presumption of innocence I believe.

Prosecutors do say that... It would depend on the evidence
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on July 18, 2021, 08:43:35 PM
Prosecutors do say that... It would depend on the evidence

No it doesn't. Assessing evidence and deciding on guilt is up to a jury or to judges, not prosecutors.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 18, 2021, 08:44:56 PM
Ss I have explained its possible to know as a fact someone is guilty but not be able to prove it in court... Do you accept that

How can Wolters "know" something without material evidence?

I think you are conceding there is reasonable doubt? Otherwise if Wolters has the evidence to "know" CB is guilty then that evidence can be presented to court. What I accept is the absolute need for due legal process.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Davel on July 18, 2021, 08:48:18 PM
No it doesn't. Assessing evidence and deciding on guilt is up to a jury or to judges, not prosecutors.

Nor retired police officers... What about the Greek police who have declared the husband guilty
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Davel on July 18, 2021, 08:50:22 PM
How can Wolters "know" something without material evidence?

I think you are conceding there is reasonable doubt? Otherwise if Wolters has the evidence to "know" CB is guilty then that evidence can be presented to court. What I accept is the absolute need for due legal process.

I know as a fact someone stole from me... 100 per cent fact... The CPS says not enough evidence... Try thinking more laterally
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 18, 2021, 08:57:56 PM
I know as a fact someone stole from me... 100 per cent fact... The CPS says not enough evidence... Try thinking more laterally

Do you mean a specific someone?

How do you know with 100% certainty they stole from you?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Davel on July 18, 2021, 09:01:56 PM
Do you mean a specific someone?

How do you know with 100% certainty they stole from you?

Yes I know the exact person on and am 100 % sure...as Wolters has said... If I told you what  it was you would believe me too
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 18, 2021, 09:07:07 PM
Yes I know the exact oetson and am 100 % sure...as Wolters has said... If I told you what  it was you would believe me too

So how do you know they stole from you? I presume you have some evidence and it’s not just a hunch? Please tell.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Davel on July 18, 2021, 09:25:04 PM
So how do you know they stole from you? I presume you have some evidence and it’s not just a hunch? Please tell.

I will tell..... Do you think what im saying is possible
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 18, 2021, 09:34:36 PM
I will tell..... Do you think what im saying is possible

OK - please do.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Davel on July 18, 2021, 09:35:48 PM
OK - please do.

So you accept its possible to know someones guilty but not be able to prove it.... Im looking for a yes or no
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 18, 2021, 09:58:46 PM
So you accept its possible to know someones guilty but not be able to prove it.... Im looking for a yes or no

That’s an irrelevant question. This is a miscarriage of justice forum. What is important is due legal process and evidence. In law there is a presumption of innocence until proven otherwise. The burden of proof in a criminal case is beyond reasonable doubt. What I think subjectively on an issue isn’t relevant. What is relevant is evidence…. Does it prove beyond reasonable doubt that CB, for example, killed Madeleine McCann?

I suspect we’re not going to hear about your theft case because I’m presuming what it would actually show is that there is an important legal distinction between believing something with great conviction and being able to prove it beyond reasonable doubt.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 18, 2021, 10:06:02 PM
That’s an irrelevant question. This is a miscarriage of justice forum. What is important is due legal process and evidence. In law there is a presumption of innocence until proven otherwise. The burden of proof in a criminal case is beyond reasonable doubt. What I think subjectively on an issue isn’t relevant. What is relevant is evidence…. Does it prove beyond reasonable doubt that CB, for example, killed Madeleine McCann?

I suspect we’re not going to hear about your theft case because I’m presuming what it would actually show is that there is an important legal distinction between believing something with great conviction and being able to prove it beyond reasonable doubt.
It is also possible to know something as fact but be unable to prove it.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 18, 2021, 10:10:15 PM
It is also possible to know something as fact but be unable to prove it.

How do you know something without evidence?

In my opinion, legally speaking. you are both confusing believing something and knowing something.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 18, 2021, 10:25:59 PM
How do you know something without evidence?

In my opinion, legally speaking. you are both confusing believing something and knowing something.
I wasn’t talking legally, I was simply stating a fact. 
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 18, 2021, 10:30:33 PM
I wasn’t talking legally, I was simply stating a fact.

Can you give me an example of a "fact" that you can't prove beyond reasonable doubt?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Davel on July 18, 2021, 10:36:53 PM
Can you give me an example of a "fact" that you can't prove beyond reasonable doubt?

I can.. I just like to hear you say its impossible.... It isnt.
Im not confusing believing with knowing. I know as a fact someone stole from me... But can
t prove it in court. So if its possible for me... Its possible for Wolters
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 18, 2021, 10:37:08 PM
There can be an objective event that has happened. But you can't know for sure it has happened without compelling evidence. Without the evidence you can only believe it has happened.

Legally speaking is important in this case otherwise you get all sorts of speculation dressed up as "fact" - as the McCann's know themselves!!
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 18, 2021, 10:39:06 PM
Can you give me an example of a "fact" that you can't prove beyond reasonable doubt?
A flatmate lends me his expensive camera.  He then accuses me of stealing it and goes to the police.  How do I prove beyond reasonable doubt that I didn’t steal it?  I know I didn’t steal it but can’t prove my flatmate is lying.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Davel on July 18, 2021, 10:39:35 PM
How do you know something without evidence?

In my opinion, legally speaking. you are both confusing believing something and knowing something.

There is evidence in my case... Conclusive evidence
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 18, 2021, 10:39:59 PM
I can.. I just like to hear you say its impossible.... It isnt.
Im not confusing believing with knowing. I know as a fact someone stole from me... But can
t prove it in court. So if its possible for me... Its possible for Wolters

What makes you know this particular person stole from you? You stated that you would tell us.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 18, 2021, 10:43:57 PM
A flatmate lends me his expensive camera.  He then accuses me of stealing it and goes to the police.  How do I prove beyond reasonable doubt that I didn’t steal it?  I know I didn’t steal it but can’t prove my flatmate is lying.

That's turning things on their head!!!! It's not for you to prove you didn't steal the camera (that's impossible - unless you have a recording of their conversation). Your flatmate has to prove you did steal it... In the same way Wolters has to prove CB killed MM. CB doesn't have to prove he didn't.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Davel on July 18, 2021, 10:47:48 PM
What makes you know this particular person stole from you? You stated that you would tell us.

I will tell now. I wanted to make the point that you felt it was impossible...

I know because she admitted it to me and agreed to pay it back. The police were involved and insisted it was dealt with by a community resolution... I think thats the term.

When the police interviwed her she denied everything...
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 18, 2021, 10:54:41 PM
That's turning things on their head!!!! It's not for you to prove you didn't steal the camera (that's impossible - unless you have a recording of their conversation). Your flatmate has to prove you did steal it... In the same way Wolters has to prove CB killed MM. CB doesn't have to prove he didn't.
I provided you with a valid example of knowing something to be true but being unable to prove it.   OK, try this one instead:
My flatmate stole my expensive camera.  When I reported him to the police he claimed I lent it to him.  I know he’s a liar and a thief but I can’t prove it beyond reasonable doubt.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 18, 2021, 11:35:09 PM
I will tell now. I wanted to make the point that you felt it was impossible...

I know because she admitted it to me and agreed to pay it back. The police were involved and insisted it was dealt with by a community resolution... I think thats the term.

When the police interviwed her she denied everything...

When the Police were first involved had she paid the money back and did she tell them that or you? Was it money that was stolen? Is it possible she lied to you in the first instance? And you don't actually know she stole from you. You just  believe her when she said she told you she had.ecent events related to

Also this has no bearing on CB and MM. She has not been returned (or found) after a confession. Wolters obviously believes CB is guilty - but it seems that, as fas as we know, Wolters doesn't have enough evidence to substantiate his belief beyond all reasonable doubt.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 18, 2021, 11:43:51 PM
I provided you with a valid example of knowing something to be true but being unable to prove it.   OK, try this one instead:
My flatmate stole my expensive camera.  When I reported him to the police he claimed I lent it to him.  I know he’s a liar and a thief but I can’t prove it beyond reasonable doubt.

I would suggest that maybe you could. Otherwise there would not be many convictions for theft if claiming something was borrowed was such a rock solid defence!!
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 18, 2021, 11:47:02 PM
I would suggest that maybe you could. Otherwise there would not be many convictions for theft if claiming something was borrowed was such a rock solid defence!!

You might find this interesting:
https://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter/2013/08/when-does-borrowing-become-stealing.html
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 19, 2021, 07:10:31 AM
I would suggest that maybe you could. Otherwise there would not be many convictions for theft if claiming something was borrowed was such a rock solid defence!!
I doubt there are many such convictions but perhaps you could give me an example of incontrovertible evidence that my flatmate stole my camera, instead of being lent it by myself as he claims.  See also the rape victim making  a claim against an agressor.  They may know as fact that they did not consent but may also not have incontrovertible evidence to prove it.   How does Clement Freud’s alleged victim prove now beyond all reasonable doubt that he molested her as a child?  She may know he is guilty but may not be able to prove it.  In short it is very possible to know someone is guilty but be unable to provide rock solid evidence, as I said.  See also Davel’s example.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on July 19, 2021, 07:22:42 AM
I doubt there are many such convictions but perhaps you could give me an example of incontrovertible evidence that my flatmate stole my camera, instead of being lent it by myself as he claims.  See also the rape victim making  a claim against an agressor.  They may know as fact that they did not consent but may also not have incontrovertible evidence to prove it.   How does Clement Freud’s alleged victim prove now beyond all reasonable doubt that he molested her as a child?  She may know he is guilty but may not be able to prove it.  In short it is very possible to know someone is guilty but be unable to provide rock solid evidence, as I said.  See also Davel’s example.

I don't know why this point keeps cropping up. It doesn't matter what someone knows, it's what can be proved in a court of law that matters.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 19, 2021, 07:24:33 AM

I would suggest you research the case of the submarine murder in Sweden in which there was a mountain of circumstantial evidence against the suspect.  The police knew he was the killer but could not find the incontrovertible evidence proving intent to kill for many many months of investigating. . 
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 19, 2021, 07:25:58 AM
I don't know why this point keeps cropping up. It doesn't matter what someone knows, it's what can be proved in a court of law that matters.
It cropped up because Billy Whizz asked me to substantiate my claim that it is possible to know something as fact  without having proof to back it up.  I suggest you read back before criticising me.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 19, 2021, 07:52:18 AM
When the Police were first involved had she paid the money back and did she tell them that or you? Was it money that was stolen? Is it possible she lied to you in the first instance? And you don't actually know she stole from you. You just  believe her when she said she told you she had.ecent events related to

Also this has no bearing on CB and MM. She has not been returned (or found) after a confession. Wolters obviously believes CB is guilty - but it seems that, as fas as we know, Wolters doesn't have enough evidence to substantiate his belief beyond all reasonable doubt.
Interesting questions.  Based on this I assume you don’t accept the verdict of guilty against the Ciprianos, that their guilt was not incontrovertibly proven?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on July 19, 2021, 07:57:01 AM
It cropped up because Billy Whizz asked me to substantiate my claim that it is possible to know something as fact  without having proof to back it up.  I suggest you read back before criticising me.

OK. So people can't always prove what they know to be true. So what? Why is that interesting or relevant?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 19, 2021, 08:04:04 AM
OK. So people can't always prove what they know to be true. So what? Why is that interesting or relevant?
Read back.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on July 19, 2021, 08:11:42 AM
Read back.

It seems to be connected to Wolters, but what he knows doesn't matter a jot if he can't prove it.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 19, 2021, 08:17:11 AM
It seems to be connected to Wolters, but what he knows doesn't matter a jot if he can't prove it.
Twll us something we don’t know.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on July 19, 2021, 08:41:20 AM
Twll us something we don’t know.

So if there's no point discussing what someone knows but can't prove why does it keep being discussed?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on July 19, 2021, 08:57:58 AM
So if there's no point discussing what someone knows but can't prove why does it keep being discussed?

We might as well all pack up and go home then.  But Amaral keeps on trying, so what is the problem?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Davel on July 19, 2021, 09:30:22 AM
When the Police were first involved had she paid the money back and did she tell them that or you? Was it money that was stolen? Is it possible she lied to you in the first instance? And you don't actually know she stole from you. You just  believe her when she said she told you she had.ecent events related to

Also this has no bearing on CB and MM. She has not been returned (or found) after a confession. Wolters obviously believes CB is guilty - but it seems that, as fas as we know, Wolters doesn't have enough evidence to substantiate his belief beyond all reasonable doubt.

100 % she stole the money and offered to pay it back
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on July 19, 2021, 09:40:14 AM
100 % she stole the money and offered to pay it back

You know the truth and 'she' knows the truth. Unfortunately there's no evidence with which to convince others, so what you know is useless in a legal sense.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Davel on July 19, 2021, 09:49:30 AM
You know the truth and 'she' knows the truth. Unfortunately there's no evidence with which to convince others, so what you know is useless in a legal sense.

I never said it wasn't... But we have established its possible to know someone is guilty without being able to prove it.
If Wolters is in the same position with CB then it is significant. We need to wsit until we know what his evidence is.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 19, 2021, 10:09:11 AM
You know the truth and 'she' knows the truth. Unfortunately there's no evidence with which to convince others, so what you know is useless in a legal sense.

Exactly that. Though in Dave’s case his 100% certainty is only based on what someone has confessed to doing. He still can’t know with 100% certainty unless he has some other evidence e.g. proof no-one else had access to the money.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 19, 2021, 10:18:13 AM
So if there's no point discussing what someone knows but can't prove why does it keep being discussed?
You tell me, you seem to know everything.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on July 19, 2021, 10:34:51 AM
You tell me, you seem to know everything.

Why did Amaral keep on discussing it when he couldn't prove anything?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Davel on July 19, 2021, 10:45:39 AM
Exactly that. Though in Dave’s case his 100% certainty is only based on what someone has confessed to doing. He still can’t know with 100% certainty unless he has some other evidence e.g. proof no-one else had access to the money.

I have other evidence but the cps said not enough

I know 100%
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on July 19, 2021, 10:47:26 AM
I never said it wasn't... But we have established its possible to know someone is guilty without being able to prove it.
If Wolters is in the same position with CB then it is significant. We need to wsit until we know what his evidence is.

Nothing is significant without proof. Wolters may have breached his suspect's rights under Article 6 of the ECHR too;

"429. The Court has emphasised the increased vigilance to be shown by public officials in exercising
their right to freedom of expression in the context of on-going investigations, especially where those
officials are themselves responsible for conducting investigations involving information covered by
an official secrecy clause designed to ensure the proper administration of justice (Poyraz v. Turkey,
§§ 76-78).
430. With regard to statements by the authorities concerning criminal investigations in progress,
the Court has reiterated that Article 6 § 2 cannot prevent the authorities from informing the public
about such investigations; however, it requires that they do so with all the discretion and
circumspection necessary if the presumption of innocence is to be respected (Fatullayev
v. Azerbaijan, §§ 159-162; Garycki v. Poland, § 69; Lavents v. Latvia, §§ 126-127; Slavov and Others
v. Bulgaria, §§ 128-130).
431. The Court has stressed the importance of the choice of words by public officials in their
statements before a person has been tried and found guilty of a particular criminal offence
(Daktaras v. Lithuania, § 41; see also, in the context of interviews to the national press, Butkevičius
v. Lithuania, § 50; Gutsanovi v. Bulgaria, §§ 197 and 202-203).

https://www.echr.coe.int/documents/guide_art_10_eng.pdf
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on July 19, 2021, 10:50:19 AM

The double standards being employed are quite breath taking.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Davel on July 19, 2021, 10:52:09 AM
Nothing is significant without proof. Wolters may have breached his suspect's rights under Article 6 of the ECHR too;

"429. The Court has emphasised the increased vigilance to be shown by public officials in exercising
their right to freedom of expression in the context of on-going investigations, especially where those
officials are themselves responsible for conducting investigations involving information covered by
an official secrecy clause designed to ensure the proper administration of justice (Poyraz v. Turkey,
§§ 76-78).
430. With regard to statements by the authorities concerning criminal investigations in progress,
the Court has reiterated that Article 6 § 2 cannot prevent the authorities from informing the public
about such investigations; however, it requires that they do so with all the discretion and
circumspection necessary if the presumption of innocence is to be respected (Fatullayev
v. Azerbaijan, §§ 159-162; Garycki v. Poland, § 69; Lavents v. Latvia, §§ 126-127; Slavov and Others
v. Bulgaria, §§ 128-130).
431. The Court has stressed the importance of the choice of words by public officials in their
statements before a person has been tried and found guilty of a particular criminal offence
(Daktaras v. Lithuania, § 41; see also, in the context of interviews to the national press, Butkevičius
v. Lithuania, § 50; Gutsanovi v. Bulgaria, §§ 197 and 202-203).

https://www.echr.coe.int/documents/guide_art_10_eng.pdf


I disagree... It depends on  what evidence Wolters has.

So its ok for amsral to say he can prove the McCanns are guilty..
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 19, 2021, 10:56:12 AM
Exactly that. Though in Dave’s case his 100% certainty is only based on what someone has confessed to doing. He still can’t know with 100% certainty unless he has some other evidence e.g. proof no-one else had access to the money.
The Portuguese Judges appeared quite certain that the Ciprianos murdered Joana - how is that possible in your view?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on July 19, 2021, 11:20:06 AM

I disagree... It depends on  what evidence Wolters has.

So its ok for amsral to say he can prove the McCanns are guilty..

I don't know, but as he wasn't a public official he wasn't constrained by the above as Wolters is. The first judge argued that Amaral was constrained, but the higher courts disagreed.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on July 19, 2021, 11:37:45 AM
Nothing is significant without proof. Wolters may have breached his suspect's rights under Article 6 of the ECHR too;

"429. The Court has emphasised the increased vigilance to be shown by public officials in exercising
their right to freedom of expression in the context of on-going investigations, especially where those
officials are themselves responsible for conducting investigations involving information covered by
an official secrecy clause designed to ensure the proper administration of justice (Poyraz v. Turkey,
§§ 76-78).
430. With regard to statements by the authorities concerning criminal investigations in progress,
the Court has reiterated that Article 6 § 2 cannot prevent the authorities from informing the public
about such investigations; however, it requires that they do so with all the discretion and
circumspection necessary if the presumption of innocence is to be respected (Fatullayev
v. Azerbaijan, §§ 159-162; Garycki v. Poland, § 69; Lavents v. Latvia, §§ 126-127; Slavov and Others
v. Bulgaria, §§ 128-130).
431. The Court has stressed the importance of the choice of words by public officials in their
statements before a person has been tried and found guilty of a particular criminal offence
(Daktaras v. Lithuania, § 41; see also, in the context of interviews to the national press, Butkevičius
v. Lithuania, § 50; Gutsanovi v. Bulgaria, §§ 197 and 202-203).

https://www.echr.coe.int/documents/guide_art_10_eng.pdf

What protocols are you accusing Wolters of breaking? 

It was Amaral who pointed the press pack in Brueckner's direction.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on July 19, 2021, 11:41:32 AM
The double standards being employed are quite breath taking.

At one time I would have thought them incredible.  Now - absolutely nothing surprises me as I watch it all with something approaching a morbid curiosity.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on July 19, 2021, 11:59:14 AM
At one time I would have thought them incredible.  Now - absolutely nothing surprises me as I watch it all with something approaching a morbid curiosity.

But it is all so way off beam with absolutely no evidence against The McCanns, so how can people be this stupid?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 19, 2021, 12:17:22 PM
I don't know, but as he wasn't a public official he wasn't constrained by the above as Wolters is. The first judge argued that Amaral was constrained, but the higher courts disagreed.
So when Wolters resigns you believe he will be free to write that it's a fact that CB murdered Madeleine in a best-selling book, even if CB is not charged at the time of publication?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on July 19, 2021, 12:21:49 PM
So when Wolters resigns you believe he will be free to write that it's a fact that CB murdered Madeleine in a best-selling book, even if CB is not charged at the time of publication?

Obligatory I would say.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on July 19, 2021, 12:23:23 PM
But it is all so way off beam with absolutely no evidence against The McCanns, so how can people be this stupid?

The only incontrovertible fact in this case is that Madeleine McCann disappeared.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Davel on July 19, 2021, 12:58:30 PM
The only incontrovertible fact in this case is that Madeleine McCann disappeared.

There are a lot more incontrovertible facts than that


Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 19, 2021, 01:23:42 PM
Obligatory I would say.
And I'm sure when Bruckner sues him, all the McCann sceptics will be defending Wolters' right to free speech over Bruckner's right to presumption of innocence....oh wait. 
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on July 19, 2021, 01:29:06 PM
There are a lot more incontrovertible facts than that

I'm quoting the judge of the first instance. Are you quoting anyone or just offering your own opinion?

"Art 27 and 28. The decision concerning this issue faces, firstly, the problem of the dichotomy between "facts ascertained during the investigating process" and "facts that also are part of the investigating process". If “acts ascertained in the investigation" refers to those which, with rigour and according to the procedural-penal dogma, are the result of the investigation that was achieved, then only one deserves this qualification – the disappearance of Madeleine McCann."
page 10 https://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/v02.htm

Notice the different type of facts she highlights, and her emphasis that only the disappearance has been ascertained (confirmed as true).
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on July 19, 2021, 01:49:06 PM
But it is all so way off beam with absolutely no evidence against The McCanns, so how can people be this stupid?

It is just another conspiracy theory amongst so many other conspiracy theories.  Didn't you know the world is flat?

Ignorance - malevolence - and the inexplicable urge to 'organise' seems to power this one.  It is their 'arguments' that are stupid.  What it is that drives them to do what they do is beyond my comprehension.

None more so than when the rights of the parents of a missing child are weighed against the rights of a prolific criminal - burglar - rapist - paedophile, the rights of the latter reign supreme.

Just check out the number of 'hate' sites set up to direct and promulgate 'the message' and wonder.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on July 19, 2021, 02:11:30 PM
I'm quoting the judge of the first instance. Are you quoting anyone or just offering your own opinion?

"Art 27 and 28. The decision concerning this issue faces, firstly, the problem of the dichotomy between "facts ascertained during the investigating process" and "facts that also are part of the investigating process". If “acts ascertained in the investigation" refers to those which, with rigour and according to the procedural-penal dogma, are the result of the investigation that was achieved, then only one deserves this qualification – the disappearance of Madeleine McCann."
page 10 https://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/v02.htm

Notice the different type of facts she highlights, and her emphasis that only the disappearance has been ascertained (confirmed as true).

I think you might be posting on the wrong thread.  I was rather hoping that a thread dealing with current issues might be of more interest than revisiting the wrongs which initiated the necessity of judges of whatever number of instances particularly the last lot in the direction of the ECHR.

I fully appreciate why you may wish to deflect from what must be one of the biggest issues affecting Madeleine's case but I think it is time we moved on from just being another hate site reflecting mean spirited attitudes and deal with the actualities.

A burglar and a paedophile was according to Amaral brought to the attention of the Judicial Police in 2007.

I am rather more interested in why there wasn't more interest in following that line of investigation than the one Amaral chose to follow.

Amaral's 'case' petered out in September 2007.  The case against the Luz paedophile is in vigorous process against the worldwide background of what appears to be a war against paedophiles and traffickers.

I think it is maybe time for you to move on and note what is happening in the here and now.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Davel on July 19, 2021, 02:26:02 PM
I'm quoting the judge of the first instance. Are you quoting anyone or just offering your own opinion?

"Art 27 and 28. The decision concerning this issue faces, firstly, the problem of the dichotomy between "facts ascertained during the investigating process" and "facts that also are part of the investigating process". If “acts ascertained in the investigation" refers to those which, with rigour and according to the procedural-penal dogma, are the result of the investigation that was achieved, then only one deserves this qualification – the disappearance of Madeleine McCann."
page 10 https://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/v02.htm

Notice the different type of facts she highlights, and her emphasis that only the disappearance has been ascertained (confirmed as true).

The McCanns have never been arrested
SY have said they are not suspects
The Germans havve said they are not suspects
Pedro da Carmo said not duspects
Wolters has said he has concrete evidence CB murdered MM

All those are facts
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 19, 2021, 02:27:09 PM
I'm quoting the judge of the first instance. Are you quoting anyone or just offering your own opinion?

"Art 27 and 28. The decision concerning this issue faces, firstly, the problem of the dichotomy between "facts ascertained during the investigating process" and "facts that also are part of the investigating process". If “acts ascertained in the investigation" refers to those which, with rigour and according to the procedural-penal dogma, are the result of the investigation that was achieved, then only one deserves this qualification – the disappearance of Madeleine McCann."
page 10 https://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/v02.htm

Notice the different type of facts she highlights, and her emphasis that only the disappearance has been ascertained (confirmed as true).
Seems to me you're cherry picking which bits of what she said you agree with to suit your argument.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Davel on July 19, 2021, 02:28:43 PM
Seems to me you're cherry picking which bits of what she said you agree with to suit your argument.

Just as Amaral cherry picked the files to produce an unbalanved view... That could well be mentioned by the ECHR
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on July 19, 2021, 04:22:41 PM
The McCanns have never been arrested
SY have said they are not suspects
The Germans havve said they are not suspects
Pedro da Carmo said not duspects
Wolters has said he has concrete evidence CB murdered MM

All those are facts

According to the ECHR, however, the McCanns were charged with a criminal offence;

"The Court held that a person arrested on suspicion of having committed a criminal offence
(Heaney and McGuinness v. Ireland, § 42; Brusco v. France, §§ 47-50), a suspect questioned about his
involvement in acts constituting a criminal offence (Aleksandr Zaichenko v. Russia, §§ 41-43; Yankov
and Others v. Bulgaria, § 23; Schmid-Laffer v. Switzerland, §§ 30-31) and a person who has been
questioned in respect of his or her suspected involvement in an offence
(Stirmanov v. Russia, § 39),
irrespective of the fact that he or she was formally treated as a witness (Kalēja v. Latvia, §§ 36-41) as
well as a person who has been formally charged with a criminal offence under procedure set out in
domestic law (Pélissier and Sassi v. France [GC], § 66; Pedersen and Baadsgaard v. Denmark [GC],
§ 44) could all be regarded as being “charged with a criminal offence” and claim the protection of
Article 6 of the Convention.

https://www.echr.coe.int/documents/guide_art_6_criminal_eng.pdf

Charged but not tried.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Davel on July 19, 2021, 04:29:12 PM
According to the ECHR, however, the McCanns were charged with a criminal offence;

"The Court held that a person arrested on suspicion of having committed a criminal offence
(Heaney and McGuinness v. Ireland, § 42; Brusco v. France, §§ 47-50), a suspect questioned about his
involvement in acts constituting a criminal offence (Aleksandr Zaichenko v. Russia, §§ 41-43; Yankov
and Others v. Bulgaria, § 23; Schmid-Laffer v. Switzerland, §§ 30-31) and a person who has been
questioned in respect of his or her suspected involvement in an offence
(Stirmanov v. Russia, § 39),
irrespective of the fact that he or she was formally treated as a witness (Kalēja v. Latvia, §§ 36-41) as
well as a person who has been formally charged with a criminal offence under procedure set out in
domestic law (Pélissier and Sassi v. France [GC], § 66; Pedersen and Baadsgaard v. Denmark [GC],
§ 44) could all be regarded as being “charged with a criminal offence” and claim the protection of
Article 6 of the Convention.

https://www.echr.coe.int/documents/guide_art_6_criminal_eng.pdf

Charged but not tried.

Your posts are getting more and more ridiculous
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on July 19, 2021, 04:34:42 PM
Your posts are getting more and more ridiculous

I'm gobsmacked.  I don't know what to say.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 19, 2021, 04:51:10 PM
I'm gobsmacked.  I don't know what to say.
I do but I’m probably not allowed to say it.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 19, 2021, 04:54:44 PM
According to the ECHR, however, the McCanns were charged with a criminal offence;

"The Court held that a person arrested on suspicion of having committed a criminal offence
(Heaney and McGuinness v. Ireland, § 42; Brusco v. France, §§ 47-50), a suspect questioned about his
involvement in acts constituting a criminal offence (Aleksandr Zaichenko v. Russia, §§ 41-43; Yankov
and Others v. Bulgaria, § 23; Schmid-Laffer v. Switzerland, §§ 30-31) and a person who has been
questioned in respect of his or her suspected involvement in an offence
(Stirmanov v. Russia, § 39),
irrespective of the fact that he or she was formally treated as a witness (Kalēja v. Latvia, §§ 36-41) as
well as a person who has been formally charged with a criminal offence under procedure set out in
domestic law (Pélissier and Sassi v. France [GC], § 66; Pedersen and Baadsgaard v. Denmark [GC],
§ 44) could all be regarded as being “charged with a criminal offence” and claim the protection of
Article 6 of the Convention.

https://www.echr.coe.int/documents/guide_art_6_criminal_eng.pdf

Charged but not tried.
What were the McCanns charged with and please provide the appropriate cites, ta.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on July 19, 2021, 05:18:14 PM
What were the McCanns charged with and please provide the appropriate cites, ta.

Very restrained.  Thank you.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 19, 2021, 05:25:21 PM
Very restrained.  Thank you.
I haven’t had a warning for weeks, I’m obviously not trying hard enough.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on July 19, 2021, 05:34:56 PM
What were the McCanns charged with and please provide the appropriate cites, ta.

They weren't charged according to Portuguese law, but the ECHR has different criteria, as my quote demonstrated. It's definition of 'charged with a criminal offence' includes those who are questioned on suspicion.

Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Davel on July 19, 2021, 05:44:32 PM
They weren't charged according to Portuguese law, but the ECHR has different criteria, as my quote demonstrated. It's definition of 'charged with a criminal offence' includes those who are questioned on suspicion.

I thiink you need to read it again... It says regarded as charged... Not charged.

The POI means someone is regarded as innocent.. Not that they are innocent.

Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 19, 2021, 06:46:27 PM
They weren't charged according to Portuguese law, but the ECHR has different criteria, as my quote demonstrated. It's definition of 'charged with a criminal offence' includes those who are questioned on suspicion.
So the ECHR regards those who have been charged no differently to those who have been questioned, from a POI perspective- so what?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 19, 2021, 11:26:25 PM
I never said it wasn't... But we have established its possible to know someone is guilty without being able to prove it.
If Wolters is in the same position with CB then it is significant. We need to wsit until we know what his evidence is.

All we established is that you were prepared to accept a confession as confirmation of a crime. Thankfully the concept of justice in the UK, Germany, and Portugal have much more robust standards for making a judgement on an aggrieved party attempting to establish "fact".

You don't "know with 100% certainty" that the person stole from you. You believe they did - with very reasonable grounds, imo.

If Wolters has evidence that absolutely proves MM is dead and evidence that proves the death was caused by CB then it is imperative that this evidence is heard in a criminal court. If he does not have sufficient evidence then he can not "know" for sure that CB is guilty of murdering Madeleine McCann.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 19, 2021, 11:34:54 PM
It is just another conspiracy theory amongst so many other conspiracy theories.  Didn't you know the world is flat?

Ignorance - malevolence - and the inexplicable urge to 'organise' seems to power this one.  It is their 'arguments' that are stupid.  What it is that drives them to do what they do is beyond my comprehension.

None more so than when the rights of the parents of a missing child are weighed against the rights of a prolific criminal - burglar - rapist - paedophile, the rights of the latter reign supreme.

Just check out the number of 'hate' sites set up to direct and promulgate 'the message' and wonder.

That CB is involved is also currently just another [conspiracy] theory.

In terms of legal rights both the doctor with no criminal record and the rapist / paedophile / burglar have an equal right to due legal process. I'd like to believe that most people on a miscarriage of justice forum are aware of this basic tenet of criminal law.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on July 20, 2021, 01:55:29 AM
That CB is involved is also currently just another [conspiracy] theory.

In terms of legal rights both the doctor with no criminal record and the rapist / paedophile / burglar have an equal right to due legal process. I'd like to believe that most people on a miscarriage of justice forum are aware of this basic tenet of criminal law.

Nonsense! Currently Brueckner is the police prime suspect in the case of a missing child.

Currently the rapist / paedophile / burglar is serving out his conviction in a German prison having undergone due process of the law and been found guilty of torture and rape and criminal offences against children.

He has neither been questioned, charged or tried for the offence for which he is the prime suspect and as a result is entitled to the presumption of innocence in that case irrespective of his proven guilt of rape/ torture and paedophilia in those cases for which he has been tried and found guilty.

The problem arises when members of a Justice Forum deny the presumption of innocence to individuals who having undergone exhaustive investigation have never been charged or tried for any offence.

Therein lies the injustice perpetrated by those on an 'injustice forum' who might or might not understand 'this basic tenet of criminal law' but who most certainly have no understanding of the respect due to victims of criminals such as Brueckner.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on July 20, 2021, 07:25:10 AM
Nonsense! Currently Brueckner is the police prime suspect in the case of a missing child.

Currently the rapist / paedophile / burglar is serving out his conviction in a German prison having undergone due process of the law and been found guilty of torture and rape and criminal offences against children.

He has neither been questioned, charged or tried for the offence for which he is the prime suspect and as a result is entitled to the presumption of innocence in that case irrespective of his proven guilt of rape/ torture and paedophilia in those cases for which he has been tried and found guilty.

The problem arises when members of a Justice Forum deny the presumption of innocence to individuals who having undergone exhaustive investigation have never been charged or tried for any offence.

Therein lies the injustice perpetrated by those on an 'injustice forum' who might or might not understand 'this basic tenet of criminal law' but who most certainly have no understanding of the respect due to victims of criminals such as Brueckner.

As far as I know at this moment no-one has denied anyone the presumption of innocence. The situation is that the McCanns have accused Portugal of doing so, but no decision has been declared by the ECHR.

In CB's case the prosecutor may have interferred with his right under Article 6 of his right to a fair trial. If the prosecutor ever finds enough evidence to charge him, of course.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 20, 2021, 07:31:49 AM
All we established is that you were prepared to accept a confession as confirmation of a crime. Thankfully the concept of justice in the UK, Germany, and Portugal have much more robust standards for making a judgement on an aggrieved party attempting to establish "fact".

You don't "know with 100% certainty" that the person stole from you. You believe they did - with very reasonable grounds, imo.

If Wolters has evidence that absolutely proves MM is dead and evidence that proves the death was caused by CB then it is imperative that this evidence is heard in a criminal court. If he does not have sufficient evidence then he can not "know" for sure that CB is guilty of murdering Madeleine McCann.
Not in Portugal.  There two people (one of whom was definitely tortured) were imprisoned for murder on the strength of nothing more than a confession.   Do you have a problem with the Cipriano verdict?  I keep asking and you keep ignoring, I wonder why….
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 20, 2021, 07:34:00 AM
As far as I know at this moment no-one has denied anyone the presumption of innocence. The situation is that the McCanns have accused Portugal of doing so, but no decision has been declared by the ECHR.

In CB's case the prosecutor may have interferred with his right under Article 6 of his right to a fair trial. If the prosecutor ever finds enough evidence to charge him, of course.
Do you think the McCanns would have received a fair trial?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Davel on July 20, 2021, 08:03:14 AM
All we established is that you were prepared to accept a confession as confirmation of a crime. Thankfully the concept of justice in the UK, Germany, and Portugal have much more robust standards for making a judgement on an aggrieved party attempting to establish "fact".

You don't "know with 100% certainty" that the person stole from you. You believe they did - with very reasonable grounds, imo.

If Wolters has evidence that absolutely proves MM is dead and evidence that proves the death was caused by CB then it is imperative that this evidence is heard in a criminal court. If he does not have sufficient evidence then he can not "know" for sure that CB is guilty of murdering Madeleine McCann.

I dont accept a confession as proof of guilt. Portugal doeas as seen the Cipriano case. I have a lot more evidence and Im certain of her guilt.

You are drawing conclusions without knowing all the facts. Like Wolters... Im sure if I told you what evidence I have you would agree with me.

I dont know if CB is guilty but I dont think Wolters would make the claims he has if he doesnt have the evidence. Sceptics seem to want to write Wolters off without hearing his evidence... Id rather wait and see
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on July 20, 2021, 09:11:13 AM
Do you think the McCanns would have received a fair trial?

I don't know. Do you think they wouldn't have?





Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 20, 2021, 09:28:44 AM
I don't know. Do you think they wouldn't have?
If the premise is that someone in a position of authority (and though Amaral may have resigned when he published his book and did his video he was nevertheless world famous as the cop on the McCann case and therefore an authoritative figure) endangers a fair trial by publicly accusing another of a heinous crime, then very evidently the McCanns would not have received one.  I wish for once you would answer honestly, is it too much to ask?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on July 20, 2021, 09:40:00 AM

Where have all the Sceptics gone?  Long time passing.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on July 20, 2021, 09:41:28 AM
I dont accept a confession as proof of guilt. Portugal doeas as seen the Cipriano case. I have a lot more evidence and Im certain of her guilt.

You are drawing conclusions without knowing all the facts. Like Wolters... Im sure if I told you what evidence I have you would agree with me.

I dont know if CB is guilty but I dont think Wolters would make the claims he has if he doesnt have the evidence. Sceptics seem to want to write Wolters off without hearing his evidence... Id rather wait and see

Your faith in Wolters is quite touching, but do try to remember that whatever evidence he has it isn't, on his own admission, good enough to lay charges let alone secure a guilty verdict in a court of law. Therefore it isn't acceptable as the basis of a public statement suggesting a suspect is guilty.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Davel on July 20, 2021, 09:59:36 AM
Your faith in Wolters is quite touching, but do try to remember that whatever evidence he has it isn't, on his own admission, good enough to lay charges let alone secure a guilty verdict in a court of law. Therefore it isn't acceptable as the basis of a public statement suggesting a suspect is guilty.

I dont think Wolters would say what he has without strong evidence. Ive demonstrated its possible to know someone is guilty without being able to prove it. Im more confident he has proof Maddie is dead at the hands of an abductor.

As regards faith... Ive see nothing to suggest Wolters is a liar or fantasist... Unlike those with blind faith in Amaral
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 20, 2021, 10:13:54 AM
Where have all the Sceptics gone?  Long time passing.
All died of boredom I expect (or of a broken-heart because the McCanns aren't doing porridge in a s..mmy Portuguese jail).
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on July 20, 2021, 10:43:33 AM
All died of boredom I expect (or of a broken-heart because the McCanns aren't doing porridge in a s..mmy Portuguese jail).

When will they ever learn? When will they ever learn?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Davel on July 20, 2021, 10:56:04 AM
When will they ever learn? When will they ever learn?

Youve got me singing
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on July 20, 2021, 11:04:42 AM
If the premise is that someone in a position of authority (and though Amaral may have resigned when he published his book and did his video he was nevertheless world famous as the cop on the McCann case and therefore an authoritative figure) endangers a fair trial by publicly accusing another of a heinous crime, then very evidently the McCanns would not have received one.  I wish for once you would answer honestly, is it too much to ask?

Unfortunately you tend to set the terms when you ask a question. For example;

Where was it announced that Amaral was in a position of authority, world famous and an authoritative figure? They sound to me like your personal opinions rather than facts.

Secondly, did he publicly accuse the McCanns of committing a heinous (your opinion) crime?

There is another way of looking at things;

The defendant Goncalo Amaral...states, synthetically, that the book was written mainly to defend his personal and professional honour, that the claimants were the ones who breached the reserve of their private life and the rights to image and good name, and that the book and the documentary describe the facts contained in the investigation.
page 7 http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6307.0

He told the Appeal Court;

The book, documentary and interview involved in the autos have as main motivation the defence of Gonçalo Amaral's personal and professional honour.

The respective contents (book, DVD, interview) do not offend any of the claimants' fundamental rights,

          . neither their privacy, such as articles 80 (3) and 81 (4) of the CC (Civil Code) define it and describe its effects, insofar as they themselves voluntarily limited / alienated such right by multiplying interviews and interventions in the media organs.

               . nor, in the same way, their image and reputation, as they themselves placed the matter in the public area and gave it a worldwide celebrity, opening the doors to all opinions, even opposing views.

              . nor, furthermore, all the guarantees of a criminal procedure, namely a fair investigation and the right to liberty and safety (5), as the respective contents of the book, documentary and interview describe the facts included in the investigation.
page 1 https://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Decision_19_04_2016.htm
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on July 20, 2021, 11:07:08 AM
Youve got me singing

Sorry about that.  We'll have it stuck in our heads for the rest of the day.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 20, 2021, 11:12:55 AM
Unfortunately you tend to set the terms when you ask a question. For example;

Where was it announced that Amaral was in a position of authority, world famous and an authoritative figure? They sound to me like your personal opinions rather than facts.

Secondly, did he publicly accuse the McCanns of committing a heinous (your opinion) crime?

There is another way of looking at things;

The defendant Goncalo Amaral...states, synthetically, that the book was written mainly to defend his personal and professional honour, that the claimants were the ones who breached the reserve of their private life and the rights to image and good name, and that the book and the documentary describe the facts contained in the investigation.
page 7 http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6307.0

He told the Appeal Court;

The book, documentary and interview involved in the autos have as main motivation the defence of Gonçalo Amaral's personal and professional honour.

The respective contents (book, DVD, interview) do not offend any of the claimants' fundamental rights,

          . neither their privacy, such as articles 80 (3) and 81 (4) of the CC (Civil Code) define it and describe its effects, insofar as they themselves voluntarily limited / alienated such right by multiplying interviews and interventions in the media organs.

               . nor, in the same way, their image and reputation, as they themselves placed the matter in the public area and gave it a worldwide celebrity, opening the doors to all opinions, even opposing views.

              . nor, furthermore, all the guarantees of a criminal procedure, namely a fair investigation and the right to liberty and safety (5), as the respective contents of the book, documentary and interview describe the facts included in the investigation.
page 1 https://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Decision_19_04_2016.htm
YOu're right - there was no public proclamation that Amaral was an authority on the case - but it's self evident is it not?  He certainly sets himself up as one in his book, and in his media interviews.  He became the most (in)famous Portuguese policeman in the world off the back of the case (name another one as well known by the general public), so I don't think it is far fetched (or even simply my opinion) to say that Amaral who had been in a position of authority as far as the case was concerned, only got a publishing deal on the strength of that authority - I mean, if you'd written a book about the investigation I doubt any publisher would have been interested.  I think you are deflecting by claiming it is only my opinion that Amaral was a well-known authority on the case, I mean COME ON!!!!
And look at it any which way you like - Amaral has made a career out of claiming that Madeleine was not abducted, that she died in an accident in the apartment and that her death was covered up.  DOubtless you don't see that as accusing the parents, but that's because it suits you to twist things to fit your argument.  You're a wriggler and no mistake!

Here's a couple of questions for you - what factors influence whether or not someone receives a fair trial?  What factors specifically might influence a trial unfairly in the case of CB if he is ever put before a judge?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on July 20, 2021, 11:41:53 AM
As far as I know at this moment no-one has denied anyone the presumption of innocence. The situation is that the McCanns have accused Portugal of doing so, but no decision has been declared by the ECHR.

In CB's case the prosecutor may have interferred with his right under Article 6 of his right to a fair trial. If the prosecutor ever finds enough evidence to charge him, of course.

Did the McCann's come up with the super wheeze of wheeching the Portuguese State into the European Court of Human Rights on a whim just for the fun of it, which seems to be your inference.

In Brueckner's case we have a suspect who has been under investigation for a number of years ... please do tell in which way a legitimate evidence based investigation of a criminal is an infringement of his human rights?

He has already tried the procedural route to complain about his arrest (note, not his innocence) and got short shrift with that.
What makes you think he will have any better luck if he tries the same with Wolters who has stuck to the letter of the law.

It was Amaral who breached the confidentiality of police forces to set the media loose on Brueckner's trail in the first instance; Amaral who then backtracked and publicised a false description of Brueckner for reasons best known to himself.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on July 20, 2021, 12:28:00 PM
Where have all the Sceptics gone?  Long time passing.

I think they may be having a long and thoughtful look at the present situation and the path which has led to where we are and managed to work out what two + two equals.

Maybe they are looking with a less jaundiced eye at fourteen years of vitriol spewed without let up on individuals whose phone records before and after Madeleine's disappearance are scrutinised to the nth degree while no-one bothered with that of known criminals.

I wonder if the light is beginning to dawn.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on July 20, 2021, 12:34:49 PM
I think they may be having a long and thoughtful look at the present situation and the path which has led to where we are and managed to work out what two + two equals.

Maybe they are looking with a less jaundiced eye at fourteen years of vitriol spewed without let up on individuals whose phone records before and after Madeleine's disappearance are scrutinised to the nth degree while no-one bothered with that of known criminals.

I wonder if the light is beginning to dawn.

If only you are right.  But sadly I don't think so.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on July 20, 2021, 12:39:44 PM
Did the McCann's come up with the super wheeze of wheeching the Portuguese State into the European Court of Human Rights on a whim just for the fun of it, which seems to be your inference.

In Brueckner's case we have a suspect who has been under investigation for a number of years ... please do tell in which way a legitimate evidence based investigation of a criminal is an infringement of his human rights?

He has already tried the procedural route to complain about his arrest (note, not his innocence) and got short shrift with that.
What makes you think he will have any better luck if he tries the same with Wolters who has stuck to the letter of the law.

It was Amaral who breached the confidentiality of police forces to set the media loose on Brueckner's trail in the first instance; Amaral who then backtracked and publicised a false description of Brueckner for reasons best known to himself.

Your opinion of my 'inferences' are just that, your opinion. I simply stated the facts.

I haven't claimed that investigating Brueckner was an 'infringement of his human rights', so unless you have a cite showing I said that it's not something I feel the need to answer.

What I have said is that Wolters may have infringed Bruckner's rights under Article 6 of the ECHR by declaring him guilty of murder before he has been tried in a court of law.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on July 20, 2021, 12:53:15 PM
YOu're right - there was no public proclamation that Amaral was an authority on the case - but it's self evident is it not?  He certainly sets himself up as one in his book, and in his media interviews.  He became the most (in)famous Portuguese policeman in the world off the back of the case (name another one as well known by the general public), so I don't think it is far fetched (or even simply my opinion) to say that Amaral who had been in a position of authority as far as the case was concerned, only got a publishing deal on the strength of that authority - I mean, if you'd written a book about the investigation I doubt any publisher would have been interested.  I think you are deflecting by claiming it is only my opinion that Amaral was a well-known authority on the case, I mean COME ON!!!!
And look at it any which way you like - Amaral has made a career out of claiming that Madeleine was not abducted, that she died in an accident in the apartment and that her death was covered up.  DOubtless you don't see that as accusing the parents, but that's because it suits you to twist things to fit your argument.  You're a wriggler and no mistake!

Here's a couple of questions for you - what factors influence whether or not someone receives a fair trial?  What factors specifically might influence a trial unfairly in the case of CB if he is ever put before a judge?

You can argue all you like, your opinion of Amaral's status remains your opinion, as does your reference to his 'career'.

I don't know if Amaral's book amounted to an accusation but if it did then so did the actions of the investigation up to 10th September 2007 which he describes.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 20, 2021, 01:39:38 PM
You can argue all you like, your opinion of Amaral's status remains your opinion, as does your reference to his 'career'.

I don't know if Amaral's book amounted to an accusation but if it did then so did the actions of the investigation up to 10th September 2007 which he describes.
Are you saying you disagree with the notion that Amaral was an authority on the investigation?  Are you disagreeing when I suggest that he was widely known internationally  as the man leading the initial investigation into Madeleine’s disappearance?  Are you disagreeing with the notion that he has publicly put the blame on the McCanns for hiding their child’s body?  Do you disagree that his career since his resignation has been largely if not wholly focused on the McCann case and on exploiting it for maximum financial gain?  Or are you just refusing to admit what is staggeringly obvious to any sentient being with an interest in the case because it doesn’t suit your argument on this occasion?
How about you have a go at answering the questions at the end of my last post if it’s not too much trouble? 
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on July 20, 2021, 01:57:46 PM
Are you saying you disagree with the notion that Amaral was an authority on the investigation?  Are you disagreeing when I suggest that he was widely known internationally  as the man leading the initial investigation into Madeleine’s disappearance?  Are you disagreeing with the notion that he has publicly put the blame on the McCanns for hiding their child’s body?  Do you disagree that his career since his resignation has been largely if not wholly focused on the McCann case and on exploiting it for maximum financial gain?  Or are you just refusing to admit what is staggeringly obvious to any sentient being with an interest in the case because it doesn’t suit your argument on this occasion?
How about you have a go at answering the questions at the end of my last post if it’s not too much trouble?

I have no need to "refuse to admit what is staggeringly obvious to any sentient being with an interest in the case" when the "sentient being" to whom everything is "staggeringly obvious" is you. You can hold whatever opinions you like, but if you want them to be treated as facts a little more evidence is required imo.

You want me to answer these questions?

"Here's a couple of questions for you - what factors influence whether or not someone receives a fair trial?  What factors specifically might influence a trial unfairly in the case of CB if he is ever put before a judge?"

There are many factors which can interfere with a person's right to a fair trial. In Brueckner's case an announcement of 'guilty' by the prosecutor in charge of the case could be seen as such an interference.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on July 20, 2021, 02:20:51 PM
With thanks to a poster on WebSleuths who has been giving further thought to Brueckner’s artistic rant which either meant something to Brueckner or he might just have been amusing himself secure in the knowledge we would puzzle ourselves into knots about his deeper meaning.

Interestingly Brueckner has depicted a female prosecutor who is the head of the unit at the prosecutors office in Braunschweig, for investigating sexual offences, including child porn.

Brueckner knows about her involvement and what her department’s remit is.  I just took from his artwork that he is a worried man … and from that information, I can see why he might well be.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 20, 2021, 02:34:55 PM
I have no need to "refuse to admit what is staggeringly obvious to any sentient being with an interest in the case" when the "sentient being" to whom everything is "staggeringly obvious" is you. You can hold whatever opinions you like, but if you want them to be treated as facts a little more evidence is required imo.

You want me to answer these questions?

"Here's a couple of questions for you - what factors influence whether or not someone receives a fair trial?  What factors specifically might influence a trial unfairly in the case of CB if he is ever put before a judge?"

There are many factors which can interfere with a person's right to a fair trial. In Brueckner's case an announcement of 'guilty' by the prosecutor in charge of the case could be seen as such an interference.
OK.  What evidence would satisfy you that Amaral was an authority on the case up until the point he retired?
What evidence would satisfy you that Amaral considered himself an authority on the case and that many also considered him an authority?
What evidence would satisfy you that Amaral was the most (in)famous Portuguese policeman internationally that there has ever been?
What evidence would satisfy you that Amaral publicly promoted the view that there was no abduction, that Madeleine died in an accident and that her death was covered up?
What evidence would you require to satisfy you that the majority of Amaral's income since retirement has been generated by his book and the promotion of the contents of his book ever since?

If the answer is that no evidence would satisfy you of any of the above, do you instead lean more towards the view that Amaral was not an authority on the case, did not consider himself an authority on the case, nor was considered by anyone else as an authority on the case, was not the most (in)famous policeman to have ever come out of Portugal and wielded little or no influence on anyone with his book or media appearances, that the majority of his income since retirement has not been as a result of his link to the case, and that he has never once suggested that the McCanns covered up the death of their daughter?

As to your answer to my previous question:  Can you explain exactly how a public announcement of guilt by a person in charge of a case  might affect someone's right to a fair trial?  And how would stepping down from such a role change the effect that such a public announcement would have on the safety of a potential trial?


Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on July 20, 2021, 03:24:49 PM
OK.  What evidence would satisfy you that Amaral was an authority on the case up until the point he retired?
What evidence would satisfy you that Amaral considered himself an authority on the case and that many also considered him an authority?
What evidence would satisfy you that Amaral was the most (in)famous Portuguese policeman internationally that there has ever been?
What evidence would satisfy you that Amaral publicly promoted the view that there was no abduction, that Madeleine died in an accident and that her death was covered up?
What evidence would you require to satisfy you that the majority of Amaral's income since retirement has been generated by his book and the promotion of the contents of his book ever since?

If the answer is that no evidence would satisfy you of any of the above, do you instead lean more towards the view that Amaral was not an authority on the case, did not consider himself an authority on the case, nor was considered by anyone else as an authority on the case, was not the most (in)famous policeman to have ever come out of Portugal and wielded little or no influence on anyone with his book or media appearances, that the majority of his income since retirement has not been as a result of his link to the case, and that he has never once suggested that the McCanns covered up the death of their daughter?

As to your answer to my previous question:  Can you explain exactly how a public announcement of guilt by a person in charge of a case  might affect someone's right to a fair trial?  And how would stepping down from such a role change the effect that such a public announcement would have on the safety of a potential trial?

It's not up to me to decide what evidence you need to support your opinions, it's up to you.

All I know is that Article 10 prevents the authorities from making statements suggesting that someone is guilty of a criminal offence.

430. With regard to statements by the authorities concerning criminal investigations in progress,
the Court has reiterated that Article 6 § 2 cannot prevent the authorities from informing the public
about such investigations; however, it requires that they do so with all the discretion and
circumspection necessary if the presumption of innocence is to be respected (Fatullayev
v. Azerbaijan, §§ 159-162; Garycki v. Poland, § 69; Lavents v. Latvia, §§ 126-127; Slavov and Others
v. Bulgaria, §§ 128-130).
431. The Court has stressed the importance of the choice of words by public officials in their
statements before a person has been tried and found guilty of a particular criminal offence
(Daktaras v. Lithuania, § 41; see also, in the context of interviews to the national press, Butkevičius
v. Lithuania, § 50; Gutsanovi v. Bulgaria, §§ 197 and 202-203).
https://www.echr.coe.int/documents/guide_art_10_eng.pdf
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 20, 2021, 04:09:30 PM
It's not up to me to decide what evidence you need to support your opinions, it's up to you.

All I know is that Article 10 prevents the authorities from making statements suggesting that someone is guilty of a criminal offence.

430. With regard to statements by the authorities concerning criminal investigations in progress,
the Court has reiterated that Article 6 § 2 cannot prevent the authorities from informing the public
about such investigations; however, it requires that they do so with all the discretion and
circumspection necessary if the presumption of innocence is to be respected (Fatullayev
v. Azerbaijan, §§ 159-162; Garycki v. Poland, § 69; Lavents v. Latvia, §§ 126-127; Slavov and Others
v. Bulgaria, §§ 128-130).
431. The Court has stressed the importance of the choice of words by public officials in their
statements before a person has been tried and found guilty of a particular criminal offence
(Daktaras v. Lithuania, § 41; see also, in the context of interviews to the national press, Butkevičius
v. Lithuania, § 50; Gutsanovi v. Bulgaria, §§ 197 and 202-203).
https://www.echr.coe.int/documents/guide_art_10_eng.pdf
I don't have to do anything, and it is extremely disingenuous of you to ask for evidence of something which is already self-evident in order to avoid addressing the point.  So where are we at? 
It appears you don't accept Amaral was an authority on the case. 
It appears you don't accept that he considers himself an authority on the case and that many also considered him an authority on the case.
It appears you don't accept that Amaral was the most (in)famous Portuguese policeman there has ever been.
It appears you don't accept that Amaral publicly promoted the view that there was no abduction, that Madeleine died in the apartment and that her death was covered up.
It appears  you don't accept that Amaral made a career out of the case since he retired.
It appears you believe that all the above is only my opinion. 
Hilarious!!  You'll be asking me to provide evidence that the sky is blue next.   
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on July 20, 2021, 05:35:27 PM
I don't have to do anything, and it is extremely disingenuous of you to ask for evidence of something which is already self-evident in order to avoid addressing the point.  So where are we at? 
It appears you don't accept Amaral was an authority on the case. 
It appears you don't accept that he considers himself an authority on the case and that many also considered him an authority on the case.
It appears you don't accept that Amaral was the most (in)famous Portuguese policeman there has ever been.
It appears you don't accept that Amaral publicly promoted the view that there was no abduction, that Madeleine died in the apartment and that her death was covered up.
It appears  you don't accept that Amaral made a career out of the case since he retired.
It appears you believe that all the above is only my opinion. 
Hilarious!!  You'll be asking me to provide evidence that the sky is blue next.   

I don't think sceptics do have a very great opinion of Amaral else why do they keep insisting that the big boys dunnit and he was only the filing clerk (which he was rubbish at too if Rebelo is to be believed about the mess he inherited from him).

I knew he was bad, he has proudly documented many of the errors of the botched case as proof of that.  For example  -
Why was not the reconstitution done soon? In chapter 5, the former PJ tries to justify why the re-enactment of the night of the girl's disappearance was not performed.

Faced with "the contradictions" in the statements of the McCann group of friends, the investigators, still in May, considered carrying out this diligence.

It did not happen because of 'the high number of tourists who were in the village'.
The space 'would have to be closed for several hours, affecting everyone's holiday' that was there.

The presence of journalists on the scene was also taken into account.

"It was also feared that parents and friends were suspected" and it was not desirable to 'have a trial in the public square'. 
https://www.lux.iol.pt/sociedade/ultimas-noticias/maddie-os-erros-da-pj-segundo-goncalo-amaral


I think that was one but ranking ​on being the worst (difficult to choose because there are so many) would be Amaral's revelation that the PJ had the opportunity to rule Brueckner in or out of the investigation in the early days.  Much as it was left to DCI Redwood to trace and eliminate burglars whose phones, like Brueckner's activated phone masts in Luz on the night Madeleine was taken.

The choice was made to target the mother of a missing child in particular and to ignore criminals who were burglars and one who had been extradited from Portugal on paedophile charges.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Anthro on July 20, 2021, 05:36:25 PM
With thanks to a poster on WebSleuths who has been giving further thought to Brueckner’s artistic rant which either meant something to Brueckner or he might just have been amusing himself secure in the knowledge we would puzzle ourselves into knots about his deeper meaning.

Interestingly Brueckner has depicted a female prosecutor who is the head of the unit at the prosecutors office in Braunschweig, for investigating sexual offences, including child porn.

Brueckner knows about her involvement and what her department’s remit is.  I just took from his artwork that he is a worried man … and from that information, I can see why he might well be.
The ‘waiter’ in the drawing was also said to resemble Amaral.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Anthro on July 20, 2021, 06:36:41 PM
Extended funding seems to be aimed at the prime suspect, Brückner and collaboration between British and German law enforcement.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/15641559/madeleine-mccann-cops-cash-boost-suspect/
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 21, 2021, 01:03:09 AM
I don't think sceptics do have a very great opinion of Amaral else why do they keep insisting that the big boys dunnit and he was only the filing clerk (which he was rubbish at too if Rebelo is to be believed about the mess he inherited from him).

I knew he was bad, he has proudly documented many of the errors of the botched case as proof of that.  For example  -
Why was not the reconstitution done soon? In chapter 5, the former PJ tries to justify why the re-enactment of the night of the girl's disappearance was not performed.

Faced with "the contradictions" in the statements of the McCann group of friends, the investigators, still in May, considered carrying out this diligence.

It did not happen because of 'the high number of tourists who were in the village'.
The space 'would have to be closed for several hours, affecting everyone's holiday' that was there.

The presence of journalists on the scene was also taken into account.

"It was also feared that parents and friends were suspected" and it was not desirable to 'have a trial in the public square'. 
https://www.lux.iol.pt/sociedade/ultimas-noticias/maddie-os-erros-da-pj-segundo-goncalo-amaral


I think that was one but ranking ​on being the worst (difficult to choose because there are so many) would be Amaral's revelation that the PJ had the opportunity to rule Brueckner in or out of the investigation in the early days.  Much as it was left to DCI Redwood to trace and eliminate burglars whose phones, like Brueckner's activated phone masts in Luz on the night Madeleine was taken.

The choice was made to target the mother of a missing child in particular and to ignore criminals who were burglars and one who had been extradited from Portugal on paedophile charges.

With regards to the reconstruction you appear to be re-writing history, in my opinion.... At the time it appeared to me that the Tapas group were resistant to a reconstruction. It was reported that they set certain conditions before they would return to test their timeline through a reconstruction. Some argued that those conditions were unreasonable.

And with regards to suspected paedophiles residing in the area what, pray tell, do you make of the "mother" and her self proclaimed fondness for socialising with Clement Freud?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on July 21, 2021, 03:11:13 AM
With regards to the reconstruction you appear to be re-writing history, in my opinion.... At the time it appeared to me that the Tapas group were resistant to a reconstruction. It was reported that they set certain conditions before they would return to test their timeline through a reconstruction. Some argued that those conditions were unreasonable.

And with regards to suspected paedophiles residing in the area what, pray tell, do you make of the "mother" and her self proclaimed fondness for socialising with Clement Freud?
What an ill informed and nasty post.

The reconstitution to which Amaral refers was in the days following Madeleine's abduction when many holidaymakers such as the Totman family https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6225547/madeleine-mccann-gp-sighting-waste/ were still continuing their holiday.

The Smiths were still there.
A reconstitution might have jogged their memories a fortnight before they remembered their encounter.

Who knows ~ perhaps Dr Totman would have been able to clarify why he was walking in the wrong direction or if he had seen anyone flip flopping up the road in towards him had the Portuguese police asked.

The Irish journalist John McGee and others like him might have been able to fill a few gaps had a reconstruction happened when quite few holidaymakers were still around to tell their story.
Snip
At no stage of the initial investigation, however, did local police attempt to interview us or anyone in our apartment complex, despite its proximity to the Ocean Club resort.
In our case, certain things we had witnessed over the previous week and indeed on the night of Madeleine's disappearance might have been of use to them.

The suspicious looking characters hanging around Hugo Beatty's bar two nights earlier - one of whom resembled the identikit photo issued by the Metropolitan Police years later; the pick-up-style truck that sped past us as we walked back to the apartment from the restaurant that fateful night; the elderly bearded man videoing children at a nearby theme park three days before.

At the time, their possible significance meant nothing to us, but they might have been of some help.
It was only when we arrived back in Dublin five days later that we felt compelled to volunteer statements to the gardai, who then passed them on to Interpol, by then already on the case.
Presumably, Interpol then passed them on to the Portuguese police.

In addition, the many photos we had taken during our holiday that might have provided clues or identified 'people of interest' in and around Praia da Luz and Lagos were uploaded to a website that was set up by the investigation.

We never heard anything back from the Portuguese police, who in July 2008 officially closed the case.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/uk/crucial-madeleine-mccann-case-questions-that-remain-unanswered-after-a-decade-35670997.html
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11656.msg614750#msg614750

Jeremy Wilkins might have been able to make himself available in the early days rather than ~
Q. relative to the return to Portugal to realize a reconstitution;
I spoke with the police for a long time regarding this topic. I had some reservation about the press' intrusion onto my personal life and the hurt that resulted. I actually think that I would prefer not to take part. I have helped the investigation and am particularly interested in the investigative team gave me a solid base with would justify the reconstitution.  J Wilkins   Rogatory

              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The reason Bridget O'Donnell, wrote this article in December 2007.

Throughout all this, I have always believed that Gerry and Kate McCann are innocent.

When they were made suspects, when they were booed at, when one woman told me she was "glad" they had "done it" because it meant that her child was safe, I began to write this article - because I was there, and I believe that woman is wrong.

There were no drug-fuelled "swingers" on our holiday; instead, there was a bunch of ordinary parents wearing Berghaus and worrying about sleep patterns.

Secure in our banality, none of us imagined we were being watched. One group made a disastrous decision; Madeleine was vulnerable and was chosen. But in the face of such desperate audacity, it could have been any one of us.

The British police came round shortly after our return. Jes was pleased to give them a statement. The Portuguese police had never asked.

Bridget O'Donnell is a writer and director.

The fee from this article will be donated to the Find Madeleine fund

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/dec/14/ukcrime.madeleinemccann
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2091.msg68843#msg68843


I make nothing "of the "mother" and her self proclaimed fondness for socialising with Clement Freud?"
Except to say at risk of dignifying such profound misogyny with a response, that your post tells me so much more about you than I want to know.


Snip
“This is the latest in a terrifying line of cases where high profile figures have systematically used their status, celebrity and power, to abuse and to rape.

“Clement Freud was a senior figure in the Liberals, our party’s predecessor, and we are deeply shocked and horrified by this news. Our party was never aware of what happened, and our hearts go out to the women who were affected.”
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/sir-clement-freud-accused-abusing-two-girls-1940s-1970s_uk_5760f9a5e4b0681487dc2b0b


Clement Freud died in 2009.
The allegations were made much later; the article I have linked to is dated 2016.

As a member of a miscarriage of justice forum I have an inherent dislike of such claims made when the individual concerned cannot either face lawful process or make any kind of defence let alone a proper one.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on July 21, 2021, 05:57:58 AM
With regards to the reconstruction you appear to be re-writing history, in my opinion.... At the time it appeared to me that the Tapas group were resistant to a reconstruction. It was reported that they set certain conditions before they would return to test their timeline through a reconstruction. Some argued that those conditions were unreasonable.

And with regards to suspected paedophiles residing in the area what, pray tell, do you make of the "mother" and her self proclaimed fondness for socialising with Clement Freud?

Oh Dear.  You don't know very much, do you.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on July 21, 2021, 06:37:17 AM
What an ill informed and nasty post.

The reconstitution to which Amaral refers was in the days following Madeleine's abduction when many holidaymakers such as the Totman family https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6225547/madeleine-mccann-gp-sighting-waste/ were still continuing their holiday.

The Smiths were still there.
A reconstitution might have jogged their memories a fortnight before they remembered their encounter.

Who knows ~ perhaps Dr Totman would have been able to clarify why he was walking in the wrong direction or if he had seen anyone flip flopping up the road in towards him had the Portuguese police asked.

The Irish journalist John McGee and others like him might have been able to fill a few gaps had a reconstruction happened when quite few holidaymakers were still around to tell their story.
Snip
At no stage of the initial investigation, however, did local police attempt to interview us or anyone in our apartment complex, despite its proximity to the Ocean Club resort.
In our case, certain things we had witnessed over the previous week and indeed on the night of Madeleine's disappearance might have been of use to them.

The suspicious looking characters hanging around Hugo Beatty's bar two nights earlier - one of whom resembled the identikit photo issued by the Metropolitan Police years later; the pick-up-style truck that sped past us as we walked back to the apartment from the restaurant that fateful night; the elderly bearded man videoing children at a nearby theme park three days before.

At the time, their possible significance meant nothing to us, but they might have been of some help.
It was only when we arrived back in Dublin five days later that we felt compelled to volunteer statements to the gardai, who then passed them on to Interpol, by then already on the case.
Presumably, Interpol then passed them on to the Portuguese police.

In addition, the many photos we had taken during our holiday that might have provided clues or identified 'people of interest' in and around Praia da Luz and Lagos were uploaded to a website that was set up by the investigation.

We never heard anything back from the Portuguese police, who in July 2008 officially closed the case.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/uk/crucial-madeleine-mccann-case-questions-that-remain-unanswered-after-a-decade-35670997.html
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11656.msg614750#msg614750

Jeremy Wilkins might have been able to make himself available in the early days rather than ~
Q. relative to the return to Portugal to realize a reconstitution;
I spoke with the police for a long time regarding this topic. I had some reservation about the press' intrusion onto my personal life and the hurt that resulted. I actually think that I would prefer not to take part. I have helped the investigation and am particularly interested in the investigative team gave me a solid base with would justify the reconstitution.  J Wilkins   Rogatory

              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The reason Bridget O'Donnell, wrote this article in December 2007.

Throughout all this, I have always believed that Gerry and Kate McCann are innocent.

When they were made suspects, when they were booed at, when one woman told me she was "glad" they had "done it" because it meant that her child was safe, I began to write this article - because I was there, and I believe that woman is wrong.

There were no drug-fuelled "swingers" on our holiday; instead, there was a bunch of ordinary parents wearing Berghaus and worrying about sleep patterns.

Secure in our banality, none of us imagined we were being watched. One group made a disastrous decision; Madeleine was vulnerable and was chosen. But in the face of such desperate audacity, it could have been any one of us.

The British police came round shortly after our return. Jes was pleased to give them a statement. The Portuguese police had never asked.

Bridget O'Donnell is a writer and director.

The fee from this article will be donated to the Find Madeleine fund

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/dec/14/ukcrime.madeleinemccann
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2091.msg68843#msg68843


I make nothing "of the "mother" and her self proclaimed fondness for socialising with Clement Freud?"
Except to say at risk of dignifying such profound misogyny with a response, that your post tells me so much more about you than I want to know.


Snip
“This is the latest in a terrifying line of cases where high profile figures have systematically used their status, celebrity and power, to abuse and to rape.

“Clement Freud was a senior figure in the Liberals, our party’s predecessor, and we are deeply shocked and horrified by this news. Our party was never aware of what happened, and our hearts go out to the women who were affected.”
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/sir-clement-freud-accused-abusing-two-girls-1940s-1970s_uk_5760f9a5e4b0681487dc2b0b


Clement Freud died in 2009.
The allegations were made much later; the article I have linked to is dated 2016.

As a member of a miscarriage of justice forum I have an inherent dislike of such claims made when the individual concerned cannot either face lawful process or make any kind of defence let alone a proper one.

People tend to hypothesise on things, don't they? John McGee may have given statements, but they never reached the Portuguese police. Bridget O'Donnell is critial of the PJ, but she obviously didn't know that Amaral asked the British police to interview her husband. (and provided the questions to be asked)
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY-WILKINS.htm
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 21, 2021, 07:08:53 AM
With regards to the reconstruction you appear to be re-writing history, in my opinion.... At the time it appeared to me that the Tapas group were resistant to a reconstruction. It was reported that they set certain conditions before they would return to test their timeline through a reconstruction. Some argued that those conditions were unreasonable.

And with regards to suspected paedophiles residing in the area what, pray tell, do you make of the "mother" and her self proclaimed fondness for socialising with Clement Freud?
Talk about re-writing history!!  You make it sound as if Kate enjoying Clement Freud’s company knowing he was a paedophile.  I know what I make of your post but I’d better keep it to myself.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 21, 2021, 07:17:48 AM
People tend to hypothesise on things, don't they? John McGee may have given statements, but they never reached the Portuguese police. Bridget O'Donnell is critial of the PJ, but she obviously didn't know that Amaral asked the British police to interview her husband. (and provided the questions to be asked)
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY-WILKINS.htm
Was that before or after this happened?

“It was only when we arrived back in Dublin five days later that we felt compelled to volunteer statements to the gardai, who then passed them on to Interpol, by then already on the case.
Presumably, Interpol then passed them on to the Portuguese police”.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on July 21, 2021, 07:51:21 AM
Was that before or after this happened?

“It was only when we arrived back in Dublin five days later that we felt compelled to volunteer statements to the gardai, who then passed them on to Interpol, by then already on the case.
Presumably, Interpol then passed them on to the Portuguese police”.

Was what before or after Mr McGee contacted the Gardai?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 21, 2021, 08:01:07 AM
Was what before or after Mr McGee contacted the Gardai?
Sorry, mixing up two different statements.  Note to self: wake up properly before starting to post.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on July 21, 2021, 08:31:36 AM
 *^&* *^&*
Sorry, mixing up two different statements.  Note to self: wake up properly before starting to post.

 *^&*
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 21, 2021, 08:39:04 AM
Well I appear to have made G-Unit’s morning, always nice to know I’ve spread a little happiness before breakfast.  @)(++(*
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Lace on July 21, 2021, 08:55:23 AM
With regards to the reconstruction you appear to be re-writing history, in my opinion.... At the time it appeared to me that the Tapas group were resistant to a reconstruction. It was reported that they set certain conditions before they would return to test their timeline through a reconstruction. Some argued that those conditions were unreasonable.

And with regards to suspected paedophiles residing in the area what, pray tell, do you make of the "mother" and her self proclaimed fondness for socialising with Clement Freud?

Jeremy Wilkins refused to return for a reconstruction too didn't he?    The McCann's agreed to return. 

As for Clement Freud,  tell me did he have 'Paedophile' written on his forehead?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on July 21, 2021, 09:10:31 AM
Jeremy Wilkins refused to return for a reconstruction too didn't he?    The McCann's agreed to return. 

As for Clement Freud,  tell me did he have 'Paedophile' written on his forehead?

Clement Freud only invited The McCanns for Lunch.

Yes, Jeremy Wilkins refused to return for a reconstruction.  A key figure as it happens.

The McCanns had no choice.

The rest of The Tapas 7 refused because they were afraid of being arrested.  "Don't bring your children" they were told.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 21, 2021, 09:23:35 AM
Jeremy Wilkins refused to return for a reconstruction too didn't he?    The McCann's agreed to return. 

As for Clement Freud,  tell me did he have 'Paedophile' written on his forehead?
Knowing Billy’s logic I’m surprised he hasn’t questioned the family’s support of Everton, seeing as how one of their team members is under investigation for Child sex abuse crimes.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on July 21, 2021, 09:51:01 AM
People tend to hypothesise on things, don't they? John McGee may have given statements, but they never reached the Portuguese police. Bridget O'Donnell is critial of the PJ, but she obviously didn't know that Amaral asked the British police to interview her husband. (and provided the questions to be asked)
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY-WILKINS.htm

A recurring theme of the investigation into a missing child are the invisible 'anonymous' witnesses who leave no trace behind them but in Amaral's feverish imagination in the pages of his book or the chat show studios.

A second recurring theme which features in the investigation is the litany of actual witnesses who might have had information which could have been collated with the experience of others.
It is called 'collecting evidence.
One example of whom is Brueckner.  For some reason he came to the attention of the Judicial Police and was visited, but he wasn't in according to Amaral who also claimed he was eliminated from the inquiry at that stage.

Amaral asked the British police to interview her husband. (and provided the questions to be asked)
Do you remember what 'rogatory' means.
Quite obviously the British police carried out their duty and interviewed a key witness whom the Portuguese didn't bother to follow through on at the time.
They had no problem bringing the Smiths over who seem to have been asked about Robert Murat.

Jeremy contacted the police because of his suspicions regarding the 'rasta man' he had encountered.  The police weren't interested in that - not one question - but they were interested in the start of the investigation into the McCanns following Gerry's interview to the extent of requesting ~
2. In the spirit of Police to Police Cooperation we request the presence of a British Criminal Analyst who may be able to assist the enquiry.
Also the collaboration of the UK's "Child Exploitation Online Protection" may be useful if they wish to send one of their officers to provide assistance to the investigation,

But they did not follow through with Jeremy on his original statement and according to him - never spoke to him again until Rebelo took over the investigation.


Interesting that fourteen years later, Amaral chose to publicise an image of Brueckner (who had a collection of wigs) with rasta locks photoshopped in.  Did it hit a chord with him for some reason
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on July 21, 2021, 09:53:24 AM
Well I appear to have made G-Unit’s morning, always nice to know I’ve spread a little happiness before breakfast.  @)(++(*

You have your uses VS.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 21, 2021, 10:03:38 AM
You have your uses VS.
Damned with faint praise...  8(8-))
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on July 21, 2021, 10:09:16 AM
Damned with faint praise...  8(8-))

Warnings Notwithstanding.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on July 21, 2021, 10:45:46 AM

snip/

Amaral asked the British police to interview her husband. (and provided the questions to be asked)
Do you remember what 'rogatory' means.
Quite obviously the British police carried out their duty and interviewed a key witness whom the Portuguese didn't bother to follow through on at the time.
They had no problem bringing the Smiths over who seem to have been asked about Robert Murat.

Jeremy contacted the police because of his suspicions regarding the 'rasta man' he had encountered.  The police weren't interested in that - not one question - but they were interested in the start of the investigation into the McCanns following Gerry's interview to the extent of requesting ~
2. In the spirit of Police to Police Cooperation we request the presence of a British Criminal Analyst who may be able to assist the enquiry.
Also the collaboration of the UK's "Child Exploitation Online Protection" may be useful if they wish to send one of their officers to provide assistance to the investigation,

But they did not follow through with Jeremy on his original statement and according to him - never spoke to him again until Rebelo took over the investigation.


Jes Wilkins spoke to the police on Friday 4th and told them about his 'rasta man' entering the Tapas restaurant when Jes was in there between 8.30 and 9pm. (or in the bar, or in the toilets, His accounts changed over time)

The police looked into this and identified the man.

After the McCanns and their friends were interviewed it became clear that Jes was present when Jane Tanner saw her man. This prompted the request by Amaral on 7th for him to be interviewed to find out if he saw anything. According to "madeleine" Gerry also asked the PJ to speak to Jes in case he saw Jane's man. (although Gerry had already sent Matt Oldfield to Jes's apartment at 1am on 4th to ask him that question)

In all, Jes was interviewed at the request of the PJ on 7th May. He and Bridget were interviewed on 2nd October but it's not clear who decided to do that. He was then included in the Rogatory requests, with some of the questions being supplied by the McCanns.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Davel on July 21, 2021, 11:01:51 AM
Jes Wilkins spoke to the police on Friday 4th and told them about his 'rasta man' entering the Tapas restaurant when Jes was in there between 8.30 and 9pm. (or in the bar, or in the toilets, His accounts changed over time)

The police looked into this and identified the man.

After the McCanns and their friends were interviewed it became clear that Jes was present when Jane Tanner saw her man. This prompted the request by Amaral on 7th for him to be interviewed to find out if he saw anything. According to "madeleine" Gerry also asked the PJ to speak to Jes in case he saw Jane's man. (although Gerry had already sent Matt Oldfield to Jes's apartment at 1am on 4th to ask him that question)

In all, Jes was interviewed at the request of the PJ on 7th May. He and Bridget were interviewed on 2nd October but it's not clear who decided to do that. He was then included in the Rogatory requests, with some of the questions being supplied by the McCanns.

Meanwhile the known paedophile who is now the prime suspect was ignored
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 21, 2021, 11:35:17 AM
Jes Wilkins spoke to the police on Friday 4th and told them about his 'rasta man' entering the Tapas restaurant when Jes was in there between 8.30 and 9pm. (or in the bar, or in the toilets, His accounts changed over time)

The police looked into this and identified the man.

After the McCanns and their friends were interviewed it became clear that Jes was present when Jane Tanner saw her man. This prompted the request by Amaral on 7th for him to be interviewed to find out if he saw anything. According to "madeleine" Gerry also asked the PJ to speak to Jes in case he saw Jane's man. (although Gerry had already sent Matt Oldfield to Jes's apartment at 1am on 4th to ask him that question)

In all, Jes was interviewed at the request of the PJ on 7th May. He and Bridget were interviewed on 2nd October but it's not clear who decided to do that. He was then included in the Rogatory requests, with some of the questions being supplied by the McCanns.
Considering Bruckner was considered worth taking the time to be paid a visit by the PJ  and considering Amaral claimed he had dreadlocks at the time you'd wonder why the PJ didn't try a little harder to track him down wouldn't you?  Well I would anyway...
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on July 21, 2021, 12:06:31 PM
Jes Wilkins spoke to the police on Friday 4th and told them about his 'rasta man' entering the Tapas restaurant when Jes was in there between 8.30 and 9pm. (or in the bar, or in the toilets, His accounts changed over time)

The police looked into this and identified the man.

After the McCanns and their friends were interviewed it became clear that Jes was present when Jane Tanner saw her man. This prompted the request by Amaral on 7th for him to be interviewed to find out if he saw anything. According to "madeleine" Gerry also asked the PJ to speak to Jes in case he saw Jane's man. (although Gerry had already sent Matt Oldfield to Jes's apartment at 1am on 4th to ask him that question)

In all, Jes was interviewed at the request of the PJ on 7th May. He and Bridget were interviewed on 2nd October but it's not clear who decided to do that. He was then included in the Rogatory requests, with some of the questions being supplied by the McCanns.

Amaral’s mind was already made up regarding the direction in which he would lead the investigation. 

How can you have forgotten ‘the badly told story’ headlines in the Portuguese press on the fifth of May 2007...

JOSE MANUEL OLIVEIRA
Crime reporter, 'Diario de Noticias'
Information started circulating from sources connected to the Portuguese police that the story was full of holes from the side of the McCanns and their friends. Indeed within two days of Madeleine disappearing, this crime correspondent was filing this piece in the Portuguese Daily: Diario of the Noticias: "Headline: a badly told story." We started to receive information according to which the police suspected the theory they had apprehensions, didn't believe the theory that she had been kidnapped. To conclude, the police started to suspect the parents from the word go.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/panorama/7106086.stm

Job done!
Suspects in place!
Concentrate on the preferred evidence and make sure the press play their part in destroying reputations  😁

All from the Amaral handbook on how not to conduct a missing child investigation.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on July 21, 2021, 12:09:10 PM
Meanwhile the known paedophile who is now the prime suspect was ignored

With only one sentence you have succinctly summed up the situation.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on July 21, 2021, 12:53:23 PM
Meanwhile the known paedophile who is now the prime suspect was ignored

Was he a known paedophile? I know he was a known deisel thief.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 21, 2021, 12:55:24 PM
Was he a known paedophile? I know he was a known deisel thief.
Why did the PJ go and visit a known diesel thief in connection with the disappearance of a little girl?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on July 21, 2021, 01:02:23 PM
Considering Bruckner was considered worth taking the time to be paid a visit by the PJ  and considering Amaral claimed he had dreadlocks at the time you'd wonder why the PJ didn't try a little harder to track him down wouldn't you?  Well I would anyway...

I wonder why you sometimes choose to not only believe Amaral but quote him to support your arguments? When I quote him he's dismissed as a liar, but when you quote him he's telling the truth, it seems.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 21, 2021, 01:14:32 PM
I wonder why you sometimes choose to not only believe Amaral but quote him to support your arguments? When I quote him he's dismissed as a liar, but when you quote him he's telling the truth, it seems.
You need to learn to read my posts more carefully.  I said Amaral “claimed” Bruckner had dreadlocks something he is on record as claiming, I didn’t say I believed him. Nor did I quote him.  Dear me, your comprehension skills are rapidly deteriorating IMO.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on July 21, 2021, 02:55:18 PM
Why did the PJ go and visit a known diesel thief in connection with the disappearance of a little girl?

Did they?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Anthro on July 21, 2021, 03:07:31 PM
Was he a known paedophile? I know he was a known deisel thief.
Christian Brueckner TOLD Portuguese authorities he was a sexual predator a YEAR before Madeleine McCann disappeared but detectives searching for three-year-old 'never considered him a potential kidnapper'
Madeleine McCann: Murder suspect admitted he was a predator | Daily Mail Online
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 21, 2021, 03:11:20 PM
Did they?
According to Amaral they did, but then he is a terrible liar (as I'm sure you agree, well on this occasion anyway) so who really knows, eh?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 21, 2021, 03:18:13 PM
Christian Brueckner TOLD Portuguese authorities he was a sexual predator a YEAR before Madeleine McCann disappeared but detectives searching for three-year-old 'never considered him a potential kidnapper'
Madeleine McCann: Murder suspect admitted he was a predator | Daily Mail Online
If you believe Amaral, they did.  The problem is Amaral is a proven liar so one has to ask oneself why he would tell such a lie.  On the other hand, he could have been breaking the habit of a lifetime and on this occasion be telling the truth which begs the question - how did the PJ eliminate Bruckner on the basis of one unanswered knock on a door?  Whichever way you look at it, it does not reflect well on the PJ or the Great Doctor himself.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on July 21, 2021, 04:19:33 PM
If you believe Amaral, they did.  The problem is Amaral is a proven liar so one has to ask oneself why he would tell such a lie.  On the other hand, he could have been breaking the habit of a lifetime and on this occasion be telling the truth which begs the question - how did the PJ eliminate Bruckner on the basis of one unanswered knock on a door?  Whichever way you look at it, it does not reflect well on the PJ or the Great Doctor himself.

Amaral wanted Kate McCann to be guilty.  It was the Mothers Kill Daughters Era.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on July 21, 2021, 05:35:52 PM
Christian Brueckner TOLD Portuguese authorities he was a sexual predator a YEAR before Madeleine McCann disappeared but detectives searching for three-year-old 'never considered him a potential kidnapper'
Madeleine McCann: Murder suspect admitted he was a predator | Daily Mail Online

Are you assuming that if one 'authority' knows something it tells all the other 'suthorities'?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Anthro on July 21, 2021, 05:56:12 PM
Are you assuming that if one 'authority' knows something it tells all the other 'suthorities'?
I’m not assuming anything. In 1994, Brückner was convicted in Germany of sexual abuse of a child, attempted sexual abuse of a child, and carrying out sexual acts in front of a child. Can you please explain what ‘suthorities’ means? English is my third language.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Davel on July 21, 2021, 06:56:18 PM
Was he a known paedophile? I know he was a known deisel thief.

Yes.. Are you not aware
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 21, 2021, 06:58:06 PM
Are you assuming that if one 'authority' knows something it tells all the other 'suthorities'?
Either they knew he was a paedo which is why they went a knocking on his door, or they didn’t know, didn’t knock and Amaral is a liar.  Take your pick.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on July 21, 2021, 07:49:55 PM
I’m not assuming anything. In 1994, Brückner was convicted in Germany of sexual abuse of a child, attempted sexual abuse of a child, and carrying out sexual acts in front of a child. Can you please explain what ‘suthorities’ means? English is my third language.

Are you assuming that the PJ knew this?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 21, 2021, 07:58:27 PM
Are you assuming that the PJ knew this?
Are you assuming they didn’t?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on July 21, 2021, 08:07:27 PM
Are you assuming they didn’t?

I don't think that The PJ were frightfully interested in Paedophiles in those days.  Probably still aren't.  They don't appear to have cared very much about some bloke breaking into children's bedrooms at the time.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Anthro on July 21, 2021, 08:35:49 PM
Are you assuming that the PJ knew this?
The PJ knew this one year before Madeleine disappeared. Can you please expand on why you are questioning this?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on July 21, 2021, 08:56:27 PM
The PJ knew this one year before Madeleine disappeared. Can you please expand on why you are questioning this?

"Even though Brueckner confessed his sexual criminal past to the judge that interrogated this information was never passed on to the PJ."
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8440941/Christian-Brueckner-TOLD-authorities-predator-YEAR-Madeleine-McCann-disappeared.html
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Anthro on July 21, 2021, 09:19:22 PM
"Even though Brueckner confessed his sexual criminal past to the judge that interrogated this information was never passed on to the PJ."
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8440941/Christian-Brueckner-TOLD-authorities-predator-YEAR-Madeleine-McCann-disappeared.html
“Details of his confession that he was a sexual predator have emerged in documents of his interview by criminal investigating Judge Antonieta Nascimento in the Portimao court house on 8th April 2006. His name should have been added to a list held by the Portugal’s investigative Policia Judiciaria [PJ] who were tasked with finding Madeleine McCann just a year later”.

🤭Another failure re. Portugal’s judicial system?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on July 21, 2021, 09:26:34 PM
“Details of his confession that he was a sexual predator have emerged in documents of his interview by criminal investigating Judge Antonieta Nascimento in the Portimao court house on 8th April 2006. His name should have been added to a list held by the Portugal’s investigative Policia Judiciaria [PJ] who were tasked with finding Madeleine McCann just a year later”.

🤭Another failure re. Portugal’s judicial system?

Not very impressive is it.  Absolutely useless in fact, right the way up to the top.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on July 21, 2021, 10:17:23 PM

In fact, is it any wonder as to why The Supreme Court came down on the side of Amaral?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 21, 2021, 11:35:13 PM
I dont accept a confession as proof of guilt. Portugal doeas as seen the Cipriano case. I have a lot more evidence and Im certain of her guilt.

You are drawing conclusions without knowing all the facts. Like Wolters... Im sure if I told you what evidence I have you would agree with me.



Come on then.... let's here your evidence, Dave.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 21, 2021, 11:38:00 PM
Come on then.... let's here your evidence, Dave.
Let’s hear your take on the Cipriano evidence.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Davel on July 21, 2021, 11:50:42 PM
Come on then.... let's here your evidence, Dave.

I have her on tape agreeing to pay me back.... When the police played it to her... She said it was for a washing machine

In i think i can prove she was lying
Not sure if you would accept my proof
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 21, 2021, 11:53:49 PM



Clement Freud died in 2009.
The allegations were made much later; the article I have linked to is dated 2016.

As a member of a miscarriage of justice forum I have an inherent dislike of such claims made when the individual concerned cannot either face lawful process or make any kind of defence let alone a proper one.


It took my female relative 12 years to discuss the sexual abuse she suffered.... and many more months before she could make a statement to the Police. What happened has left deep psychological trauma. There is no way I would criticise any victim of sexual abuse for speaking out - even if it's clear the alleged perpetrator is not going to face due legal process.

Perhaps you feel some kind of partisan loyalty to Clement Freud? In my opinion it's likely that he is every bit as repulsive and predatory as CB. Freud's wife accepted what he had done - but your "dislike"clearly appears to be aimed at the actions of his victims.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 21, 2021, 11:56:19 PM
Let’s hear your take on the Cipriano evidence.

I haven't studied it. From what I recall (and I can't remember the source) it was reported that Amaral beat a confession out of someone, but there's probably another thread for that case.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 21, 2021, 11:57:26 PM
I have her on tape agreeing to pay me back.... When the police played it to her... She said it was for a washing machine

In i think i can prove she was lying
Not sure if you would accept my proof

Audio tape? So as I stated you accept her confession?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Davel on July 21, 2021, 11:59:20 PM
Audio tape? So as I stated you accept her confession?

Read the post again... Then comment... Its nothing to do with her confess... Its her agreeing to pay the money back
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Davel on July 22, 2021, 12:21:44 AM
Audio tape? So as I stated you accept her confession?

She confessed to er family too... Still think I'm wrong
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 22, 2021, 12:24:19 AM
Read the post again... Then comment... Its nothing to do with her confess... Its her agreeing to pay the money back
I’ve read it several times. You don’t paint a picture of an honest character. Offering to pay it back on audio tape implies she has your money or was she talking about paying you for a washing machine? It’s hard to guess given we both accept she appears less than honest as a character.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 22, 2021, 12:30:14 AM
She confessed to er family too... Still think I'm wrong

I never said you were wrong . I questioned whether your “evidence” was robust enough for you to “know” rather than “believe” she stole your money.

Good effort though - even if it did take you over 48 hours and amounts to you taping a dishonest woman who was either talking about money she stole or money she owed for a washing machine!! I’m not a solicitor but I’d say on the balance of probabilities I’m with you. The trouble is theft is a criminal offence though.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 22, 2021, 02:38:13 AM
I don't think that The PJ were frightfully interested in Paedophiles in those days.  Probably still aren't.  They don't appear to have cared very much about some bloke breaking into children's bedrooms at the time.

And have OG had any success in investigating CB, or any of the other alleged or suspected paedophiles possibly linked to this case? It seemed to take them years to realise Smithman was possibly highly significant in my opinion.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on July 22, 2021, 02:55:32 AM

It took my female relative 12 years to discuss the sexual abuse she suffered.... and many more months before she could make a statement to the Police. What happened has left deep psychological trauma. There is no way I would criticise any victim of sexual abuse for speaking out - even if it's clear the alleged perpetrator is not going to face due legal process.

Perhaps you feel some kind of partisan loyalty to Clement Freud? In my opinion it's likely that he is every bit as repulsive and predatory as CB. Freud's wife accepted what he had done - but your "dislike"clearly appears to be aimed at the actions of his victims.

I know nothing about Clement Freud's accusers but think on ... if you or your son or daughter were to be accused of historic sex abuse ... would that be it for you.
Would you, your son and your daughter accept the accusation - or accusations - without question and settle down to do your time with good grace.

We have a well established legal system based on the presumption of innocence which would allow you to argue a case to defend yourself.

Clement Freud was dead when his accuser made an appearance on a documentary 'Abused And Betrayed - A Life Sentence' and therefore could mount no defence.

The day following the release of the documentary Cliff Richard was cleared of accusations made against him.   It took two horrible years as the police investigated - and no doubt expensive lawyers.

Cliff Richard was alive and able to fight his case. 

Lord McAlpine was able to fight his.  If they had been dead they would have shared the same addition to their name as that given to Clement Freud.

Accusers can tell it very wrong. Follow these two links to get a flavour of what Lord McAlpine was up against  ~

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20269114#:~:text=Lord%20McAlpine%2C%20whose%20grandfather%20founded%20the%20McAlpine%20construction,post%20until%201990.%20He%20now%20lives%20in%20Italy.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2231212/Steven-Messham-Astonishing-story-BBC-DIDNT-tell-troubled-star-witness.html
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on July 22, 2021, 03:52:49 AM
And have OG had any success in investigating CB, or any of the other alleged or suspected paedophiles possibly linked to this case? It seemed to take them years to realise Smithman was possibly highly significant in my opinion.
I think that like everyone else you are just going to have to wait to be told what the police are doing in Madeleine's case.

Scotland Yard used the tools of the trade to cast a wide net and didn't confine themselves to concentrating in one direction which is the mistake Amaral made.

In the beginning, if the Portuguese had worked the cell dump as it should have been who knows where that might have led the investigation.  It certainly was a missed opportunity which could well have spared many years of grief.



Snip
After carrying out a cell-dump of all mobile phone activity in the Praia da Luz area in the lead-up to Madeleine's disappearance and the days after, the Metropolitan Police were also able to identify all the telephone numbers we dialled, as well as the numbers that had dialled us during that period. As is the norm in such cases, details of all calls made and received were submitted as part of our statements.

The use of cell-dumps has helped police gain convictions in several high-profile murder cases in the past, and nowadays cell-dumps are almost as useful to the police as fingerprints or DNA. It was later reported by several UK newspapers that the cell-dump turned up a large number of telephone calls and texts in and around the Ocean Club between a group of men around the time of Madeleine's disappearance. Nothing ever came of it.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/uk/crucial-madeleine-mccann-case-questions-that-remain-unanswered-after-a-decade-35670997.html
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 22, 2021, 07:12:32 AM
I haven't studied it. From what I recall (and I can't remember the source) it was reported that Amaral beat a confession out of someone, but there's probably another thread for that case.
You don’t need to “study” it.  The fact of the matter is that there was no “cast iron evidence” the suspects committed the crime, in fact there was no forensic evidence at all.  The trial lasted a day or two IIRC and they were both banged up largely if not solely due to the suspects’ confessions, one of which was withdrawn prior to trial, the one made by the suspect who was tortured by the police. I haven’t studied it but I believe those are the salient facts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Joana_Cipriano#Allegations_of_police_misconduct

So perhaps you’d like to give us your thoughts on that?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 22, 2021, 07:16:49 AM

It took my female relative 12 years to discuss the sexual abuse she suffered.... and many more months before she could make a statement to the Police. What happened has left deep psychological trauma. There is no way I would criticise any victim of sexual abuse for speaking out - even if it's clear the alleged perpetrator is not going to face due legal process.

Perhaps you feel some kind of partisan loyalty to Clement Freud? In my opinion it's likely that he is every bit as repulsive and predatory as CB. Freud's wife accepted what he had done - but your "dislike"clearly appears to be aimed at the actions of his victims.
You previously questioned Kate McCann’s apparent fondness for this alleged  paedophile.  What point were you trying to make about her?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on July 22, 2021, 08:20:18 AM
Well Brueckner's warning shot appears to have worked on Wolters. There have been no more interviews with the prosecutor recently. Quite right too, in my opinion. If there's one thing the UK police are good at it's saying just what they need to say to the media and no more.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 22, 2021, 08:26:24 AM
Well Brueckner's warning shot appears to have worked on Wolters. There have been no more interviews with the prosecutor recently. Quite right too, in my opinion. If there's one thing the UK police are good at it's saying just what they need to say to the media and no more.
Interesting that you see it as Brückner being able  to control Wolters behaviour from his prison cell.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on July 22, 2021, 09:06:15 AM
Interesting that you see it as Brückner being able  to control Wolters behaviour from his prison cell.

Wolters doesn't have to say anymore at the moment.

Wolters didn't expose Breuckner.  Amaral did that.  But what was Amaral thinking of?  He has made himself look like a right pillock.  Again.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Davel on July 22, 2021, 09:15:41 AM
Well Brueckner's warning shot appears to have worked on Wolters. There have been no more interviews with the prosecutor recently. Quite right too, in my opinion. If there's one thing the UK police are good at it's saying just what they need to say to the media and no more.

I remember lots of complaints that SY should share their evidence... Wolters is keeping us informed.. Thats good
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on July 22, 2021, 09:47:09 AM
Interesting that you see it as Brückner being able  to control Wolters behaviour from his prison cell.

Well something's shut him up after a year of talking to anyone who asked him to. Coincidence? Maybe.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on July 22, 2021, 09:50:02 AM
I remember lots of complaints that SY should share their evidence... Wolters is keeping us informed.. Thats good

True.  People demanding to know what their Tax Payers Money was being spent on.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: jassi on July 22, 2021, 09:55:15 AM
Well something's shut him up after a year of talking to anyone who asked him to. Coincidence? Maybe.

Could be he's finally realised he has nothing useful to say that he hasn't already said.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on July 22, 2021, 10:08:54 AM
Well Brueckner's warning shot appears to have worked on Wolters. There have been no more interviews with the prosecutor recently. Quite right too, in my opinion. If there's one thing the UK police are good at it's saying just what they need to say to the media and no more.

Which warning shot is that? 

From 2017 until Amaral 2019 spoke on Saunokonoko's podcast and into 2020 when Amaral clarified exactly to which German national locked up for his crimes in a German jail, he was referring.

Snip
"Speaking on the Maddie podcast, in a 2019 interview that has accurately foreshadowed today's developments, Mr Amaral confirmed the German had been on the Algarve.

"He was investigated by the [Policia Judiciaria, Portugal's police] at the time [and] when the case ended they discarded him," he said.

"The trailer that he lived in was taken to Germany for testing but nothing was found there."

Mr Amaral said the German suspect was a convicted sex offender and was serving sentences in Germany unrelated the disappearance of Madeleine, arguably the world's most famous missing person case.

The former cop hit out at Operation Grange, the long-running $20 million London Metropolitan Police investigation for Maddie.

He alleged Operation Grange only had "one investigation line", and claimed it was blinkered to other possibilities about what may have happened in the resort where Madeleine was staying.
     _____________________________________________________

Mr and Mrs McCann have strenuously denied any involvement in their daughter's disappearance. Nine.com.au does not suggest they were involved in any way.
The German pedophile fits with the theory Mr and Mrs McCann have always believed could explain what happened to Madeleine: that someone broke into the holiday apartment and stole the three-year-old girl while she was sleeping.
Clouding that possible theory was circumstantial evidence developed by Mr Amaral and his team of detectives in the summer of 2007.
https://www.9news.com.au/national/madeleine-mccann-german-suspect-a-scapegoat-portugal-detective-goncalo-amaral-claims-maddie-podcast/0ea5ef10-8717-4cfb-adea-a1c8baf2d357


Until then you had never heard of Brueckner.  Only those investigating him (and Amaral) had.

I don't think Wolters would probably have given interviews at that time if Amaral hadn't already blown Brueckner's cover making it opportune to seek public assistance.

Perhaps you have failed to notice that nobody is giving interviews at the moment suggesting to me that Wolters is running the show here, not Brueckner as you seem to imagine.

I think far from firing off warning shots Brueckner and his cartoon sent out signals to the contrary. 

Anyway - you can think and say what you like I'm not too sure anyone is too bothered 😁
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on July 22, 2021, 10:27:23 AM
True.  People demanding to know what their Tax Payers Money was being spent on.

Now we know, thanks to Amaral.

I have only listened to minimal Saunokonoko podcast material and only went there today to provide a link.  A quick glance suggests to me that 9News is not nearly as supportive of Amaral's theories as sceptics think.

He is still on about Gaspar and freezers 😁

When everyone else has moved onto present day circumstances with real cops following evidence of perhaps more offences than the one which Amaral treated like a penny dreadful - and might have noted and wondered about Amaral's interference in the German investigation which he has consistently rubbished and promoted misleading information about. 
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on July 22, 2021, 10:44:31 AM
I remember lots of complaints that SY should share their evidence... Wolters is keeping us informed.. Thats good

People are well aware that the Portuguese investigation closed without the crime being identified and without the suspicions about the parents being dissipated. Despite that, Operation Grange was given one crime only to investigate; stranger abduction. It wasn't unreasonable to wonder what evidence that decision was based on.

I expect Wolters is struggling to gather the evidence he needs because there's no definitive evidence that Madeleine McCann was abducted. Everyone (Wolters, the BKA and the dodgy informants) has assumed it happened but in a court of law it needs to be shown that it happened and that the accused was involved.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on July 22, 2021, 12:09:57 PM
People are well aware that the Portuguese investigation closed without the crime being identified and without the suspicions about the parents being dissipated. Despite that, Operation Grange was given one crime only to investigate; stranger abduction. It wasn't unreasonable to wonder what evidence that decision was based on.

I expect Wolters is struggling to gather the evidence he needs because there's no definitive evidence that Madeleine McCann was abducted. Everyone (Wolters, the BKA and the dodgy informants) has assumed it happened but in a court of law it needs to be shown that it happened and that the accused was involved.

Seldom have I seen such circa 2007 rubbish repeated on what is supposed to be a fact based forum.

It is about time you got it through your head that Madeleine's parents were cleared of anything approaching the slurs Amaral continues to treasure and you to nourish.
I really think you cannot see what an embarrassment Amaral's botched investigation is to Portugal.

That you keep on reiterating that Scotland Yard was only "being allowed" to investigate abduction is absolutely beyond belief and an insult to officers who did their job efficiently and following procedure which could only have happened if the case was viewed as a whole.

You have absolutely no idea of the issues that motivated Scotland Yard to ask for Madeleine's case to be opened.

Don't pretend you do.

Meantime the rest of the world took note of the amount of loose ends arising from lack of Amaral's diligence which Scotland Yard had to work their way through ... and that path leads us to the present prime suspect.

Who do you think directed the Judicial Police to work round to the 'abduction theory' - declaring right from the start that the McCanns were not suspects but a burglar and a former employee of the Ocean Club was.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Davel on July 22, 2021, 12:19:34 PM
People are well aware that the Portuguese investigation closed without the crime being identified and without the suspicions about the parents being dissipated. Despite that, Operation Grange was given one crime only to investigate; stranger abduction. It wasn't unreasonable to wonder what evidence that decision was based on.

I expect Wolters is struggling to gather the evidence he needs because there's no definitive evidence that Madeleine McCann was abducted. Everyone (Wolters, the BKA and the dodgy informants) has assumed it happened but in a court of law it needs to be shown that it happened and that the accused was involved.

I think looking at the evidence the PJ collected it was clear the mccanns were not involved. Every personwho suspects the mccanns misunderstands the alerts imo.. That goes for all sveptics ive come across and the PJ.
The case wss archived becayse thete wss no real evidence against the McCanns

Ive listened to everything from .. Wolters... He hasnt contrafdicted himself once.. From whst he has said it seems he has proof of abduction and murder... But not enough evidence to be sure of convicting CB
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on July 22, 2021, 12:48:12 PM
People are well aware that the Portuguese investigation closed without the crime being identified and without the suspicions about the parents being dissipated. Despite that, Operation Grange was given one crime only to investigate; stranger abduction. It wasn't unreasonable to wonder what evidence that decision was based on.

I expect Wolters is struggling to gather the evidence he needs because there's no definitive evidence that Madeleine McCann was abducted. Everyone (Wolters, the BKA and the dodgy informants) has assumed it happened but in a court of law it needs to be shown that it happened and that the accused was involved.

Why is it so important to you that, like Amaral you really do not wish Madeleine’s case to be investigated properly if your posting history is anything to go by.

Three national police forces are investigating abduction and have been investigating a prime suspect for as many years as Amaral spent in months on botching Madeleine's case before being sacked from the job for his awfulness.

Who do you think would know more about Brueckner to share information with the authorities than his neighbours, friends, acquaintances, those who worked with him in legitimate jobs and in more nefarious enterprises such as drugs and burglary.

Not all informants will be “dodgy” as you term it.  His phone number activated a mast in Luz on the night Madeleine disappeared – the PJ apparently ’ruled him out’ in 2007, and I think that is an interesting one indeed.

Quite obviously he is still very much ‘ruled in’ to the investigation and has been since 2017 when he apparently mouthed off in a pub, until now in 2021 when the police have evidence to name him as the Prime Suspect in Madeleine’s abduction.

It is my belief that investigators are checking out many more offences with which he may be associated and not just Madeleine's so the bad news for you is anguish for her parents, if it gives you solace to know that.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Davel on July 22, 2021, 12:55:49 PM
People are well aware that the Portuguese investigation closed without the crime being identified and without the suspicions about the parents being dissipated. Despite that, Operation Grange was given one crime only to investigate; stranger abduction. It wasn't unreasonable to wonder what evidence that decision was based on.

I expect Wolters is struggling to gather the evidence he needs because there's no definitive evidence that Madeleine McCann was abducted. Everyone (Wolters, the BKA and the dodgy informants) has assumed it happened but in a court of law it needs to be shown that it happened and that the accused was involved.

The archiving report said no evidence of any crime.. P D Carmo said no evidence no suspects... So who is that suspects the mccanns. I think its obvious why SY consider the crime to be abduction 
From what HCW has said he has proof of abduction and muder but not enough evidence to guarantee a conviction for CB. Hes in no rush so hes looking to make a water tight case
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on July 22, 2021, 01:08:06 PM

Answers in red.
 
Seldom have I seen such circa 2007 rubbish repeated on what is supposed to be a fact based forum.

If only it was a fact based forum. I find it's anything but. It's a forum which repeats uninformed journalistic and other blog/forum based rumours and speculations far too frequently in my opinion. In fact much of this post is based on beliefs rather than facts imo.


It is about time you got it through your head that Madeleine's parents were cleared of anything approaching the slurs Amaral continues to treasure and you to nourish.

The McCanns were not cleared, the investigation was shelved due to a lack of evidence.


I really think you cannot see what an embarrassment Amaral's botched investigation is to Portugal.

Do you have a cite to support this "fact"?

That you keep on reiterating that Scotland Yard was only "being allowed" to investigate abduction is absolutely beyond belief and an insult to officers who did their job efficiently and following procedure which could only have happened if the case was viewed as a whole.

There is evidence which suggests that Op Grange were set up to investigate an abduction.

You have absolutely no idea of the issues that motivated Scotland Yard to ask for Madeleine's case to be opened.

Don't pretend you do.

Do you mean the Portuguese investigation?

Meantime the rest of the world took note of the amount of loose ends arising from lack of Amaral's diligence which Scotland Yard had to work their way through ... and that path leads us to the present prime suspect.

I thought it was informant information which led to the present prime suspect?

Who do you think directed the Judicial Police to work round to the 'abduction theory' - declaring right from the start that the McCanns were not suspects but a burglar and a former employee of the Ocean Club was.

No idea, do tell.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 22, 2021, 01:44:25 PM
Well something's shut him up after a year of talking to anyone who asked him to. Coincidence? Maybe.
To test if that's true or not you'd need to look at all of HCW's public pronouncements and see how regular they were and what the longest interval was between pronouncements.  It's only been a month since he last spoke, is that the longest period of silence from him?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 22, 2021, 01:49:45 PM

Answers in red.
 
Seldom have I seen such circa 2007 rubbish repeated on what is supposed to be a fact based forum.

If only it was a fact based forum. I find it's anything but. It's a forum which repeats uninformed journalistic and other blog/forum based rumours and speculations far too frequently in my opinion. In fact much of this post is based on beliefs rather than facts imo.


It is about time you got it through your head that Madeleine's parents were cleared of anything approaching the slurs Amaral continues to treasure and you to nourish.

The McCanns were not cleared, the investigation was shelved due to a lack of evidence.


I really think you cannot see what an embarrassment Amaral's botched investigation is to Portugal.

Do you have a cite to support this "fact"?

That you keep on reiterating that Scotland Yard was only "being allowed" to investigate abduction is absolutely beyond belief and an insult to officers who did their job efficiently and following procedure which could only have happened if the case was viewed as a whole.

There is evidence which suggests that Op Grange were set up to investigate an abduction.

You have absolutely no idea of the issues that motivated Scotland Yard to ask for Madeleine's case to be opened.

Don't pretend you do.

Do you mean the Portuguese investigation?

Meantime the rest of the world took note of the amount of loose ends arising from lack of Amaral's diligence which Scotland Yard had to work their way through ... and that path leads us to the present prime suspect.

I thought it was informant information which led to the present prime suspect?

Who do you think directed the Judicial Police to work round to the 'abduction theory' - declaring right from the start that the McCanns were not suspects but a burglar and a former employee of the Ocean Club was.

No idea, do tell.
Have you ever asked yourself why the McCanns weren't reconstituted arguidos by the Portuguese when they re-opened their investigation into this case?  If so, what conclusions did you draw, if any?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Lace on July 22, 2021, 02:19:06 PM
Now we know, thanks to Amaral.

I have only listened to minimal Saunokonoko podcast material and only went there today to provide a link.  A quick glance suggests to me that 9News is not nearly as supportive of Amaral's theories as sceptics think.

He is still on about Gaspar and freezers 😁

When everyone else has moved onto present day circumstances with real cops following evidence of perhaps more offences than the one which Amaral treated like a penny dreadful - and might have noted and wondered about Amaral's interference in the German investigation which he has consistently rubbished and promoted misleading information about.


Amaral said a Police Officer knocked on CB's door but didn't get an answer.    Amaral is saying they didn't find anything to link CB to Madeleine's disappearance.   So did he interview CB or not?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Lace on July 22, 2021, 02:20:44 PM
To test if that's true or not you'd need to look at all of HCW's public pronouncements and see how regular they were and what the longest interval was between pronouncements.  It's only been a month since he last spoke, is that the longest period of silence from him?

Wolters has said CB will be interviewed when their investigation is completed.  Until then he can stew {Wolters didn't say that I did]
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Lace on July 22, 2021, 02:26:16 PM
People are well aware that the Portuguese investigation closed without the crime being identified and without the suspicions about the parents being dissipated. Despite that, Operation Grange was given one crime only to investigate; stranger abduction. It wasn't unreasonable to wonder what evidence that decision was based on.

I expect Wolters is struggling to gather the evidence he needs because there's no definitive evidence that Madeleine McCann was abducted. Everyone (Wolters, the BKA and the dodgy informants) has assumed it happened but in a court of law it needs to be shown that it happened and that the accused was involved.

I don't believe OG were given the only crime of stranger abduction to investigate at all.   As they said they read through everything,  thousands of pages of investigation.  Just because they said they didn't interview the McCann's as that was dealt with by the Portuguese Police [they had all the statements etc,]. doesn't mean they automatically just assumed the McCann's innocent.   That is  something the anti's use as an argument against the Police Forces saying the McCann's are innocent and there was no evidence the McCann's were involved in Madeleine's disappearance.   Two Police Forces are investigating abduction,   have the German Police been told not to investigate  the McCann's too?   
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 22, 2021, 03:14:57 PM
I don't believe OG were given the only crime of stranger abduction to investigate at all.   As they said they read through everything,  thousands of pages of investigation.  Just because they said they didn't interview the McCann's as that was dealt with by the Portuguese Police [they had all the statements etc,]. doesn't mean they automatically just assumed the McCann's innocent.   That is  something the anti's use as an argument against the Police Forces saying the McCann's are innocent and there was no evidence the McCann's were involved in Madeleine's disappearance.   Two Police Forces are investigating abduction,   have the German Police been told not to investigate  the McCann's too?
The other ludicrous assumption is that having read up on "all the incriminating evidence" against the McCanns in the files, the Met had no choice but to obey the orders from the High Ups and disregard it in order to chase a wild goose, which presumably is what sceptics like G-Unit believe - that the Met is so corrupt, and the McCanns so important that that is what has happened. Amazing no anonymouse whistleblower has yet come forward to the media to spill the beans on this amazing cover-up, just think of the fortune they could make by selling their story!
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on July 22, 2021, 03:44:55 PM
The other ludicrous assumption is that having read up on "all the incriminating evidence" against the McCanns in the files, the Met had no choice but to obey the orders from the High Ups and disregard it in order to chase a wild goose, which presumably is what sceptics like G-Unit believe - that the Met is so corrupt, and the McCanns so important that that is what has happened. Amazing no anonymouse whistleblower has yet come forward to the media to spill the beans on this amazing cover-up, just think of the fortune they could make by selling their story!

I have never bothered to argue this point because it is obvious to me.

I don't know if Operation Grange interviewed The McCanns but they had all of the information from The Portuguese Investigation who did their utmost to find The McCanns guilty.

Or are Sceptics saying that The Portuguese were incompetent and totally unable to find a pig in a poke?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 22, 2021, 05:06:50 PM
I know nothing about Clement Freud's accusers but think on ... if you or your son or daughter were to be accused of historic sex abuse ... would that be it for you.
Would you, your son and your daughter accept the accusation - or accusations - without question and settle down to do your time with good grace.

We have a well established legal system based on the presumption of innocence which would allow you to argue a case to defend yourself.

Clement Freud was dead when his accuser made an appearance on a documentary 'Abused And Betrayed - A Life Sentence' and therefore could mount no defence.

The day following the release of the documentary Cliff Richard was cleared of accusations made against him.   It took two horrible years as the police investigated - and no doubt expensive lawyers.

Cliff Richard was alive and able to fight his case. 

Lord McAlpine was able to fight his.  If they had been dead they would have shared the same addition to their name as that given to Clement Freud.

Accusers can tell it very wrong. Follow these two links to get a flavour of what Lord McAlpine was up against  ~

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20269114#:~:text=Lord%20McAlpine%2C%20whose%20grandfather%20founded%20the%20McAlpine%20construction,post%20until%201990.%20He%20now%20lives%20in%20Italy.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2231212/Steven-Messham-Astonishing-story-BBC-DIDNT-tell-troubled-star-witness.html

If you believe our well established legal system is protecting the victims of paedophiles then all I can do is stress that I believe, from tragic personal involvement, that you are very sadly mistaken.

Also I shouldn't respond to your ad hominem rhetoric but the sentence stating "the mother's self proclaimed enjoyment of socialising with Clement Freud" contains no misogyny whatsoever. It's a factual statement based on Kate McCann's book. For the record, in my opinion, Gerry McCann appears controlling in terms of the couple's public persona and how that is managed. However it was Kate who wrote about enjoying the company of the alleged paedophile Clement Freud.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on July 22, 2021, 05:11:21 PM
If you believe our well established legal system is protecting the victims of paedophiles then all I can do is stress that I believe, from tragic personal involvement, that you are very sadly mistaken.

Also I shouldn't respond to your ad hominem rhetoric but the sentence stating "the mother's self proclaimed enjoyment of socialising with Clement Freud" contains no misogyny whatsoever. It's a factual statement based on Kate McCann's book. For the record, in my opinion, Gerry McCann appears controlling in terms of the couple's public persona and how that is managed. However it was Kate who wrote about enjoying the company of the alleged paedophile Clement Freud.

Was Clement Freud an alleged paedophile at the time.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 22, 2021, 05:23:14 PM
Was Clement Freud an alleged paedophile at the time.

It is alleged he was a paedophile from the late 1940s onwards. His wife has even accepted the allegations and has expressed her sympathy to the victims. This was not known in 2007 - but it is known now. In my opinion it's reasonable to believe that the McCann's might issue a public statement given what Kate wrote about him in her book, and the fact that from Day One it was them that linked this case to paedophilia.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on July 22, 2021, 05:32:05 PM
It is alleged he was a paedophile from the late 1940s onwards. His wife has even accepted the allegations and has expressed her sympathy to the victims. This was not known in 2007 - but it is known now. In my opinion it's reasonable to believe that the McCann's might issue a public statement given what Kate wrote about him in her book, and the fact that from Day One it was them that linked this case to paedophilia.

So Kate didn't know about this at the time.  Thank you.  So why should Kate issue a statement and saying what exactly?

Was he ever found guilty?  Or did his wife stand trial for him?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 22, 2021, 05:32:16 PM
It is alleged he was a paedophile from the late 1940s onwards. His wife has even accepted the allegations and has expressed her sympathy to the victims. This was not known in 2007 - but it is known now. In my opinion it's reasonable to believe that the McCann's might issue a public statement given what Kate wrote about him in her book, and the fact that from Day One it was them that linked this case to paedophilia.
What a laughable suggestion IMO.  Why does Kate McCann need to make a public statement about Clement Freud?  Saying what exactly?  If your best mate turned out to be a paedophile what sort of a public statement would you make about it?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Lace on July 22, 2021, 05:40:31 PM
If you believe our well established legal system is protecting the victims of paedophiles then all I can do is stress that I believe, from tragic personal involvement, that you are very sadly mistaken.

Also I shouldn't respond to your ad hominem rhetoric but the sentence stating "the mother's self proclaimed enjoyment of socialising with Clement Freud" contains no misogyny whatsoever. It's a factual statement based on Kate McCann's book. For the record, in my opinion, Gerry McCann appears controlling in terms of the couple's public persona and how that is managed. However it was Kate who wrote about enjoying the company of the alleged paedophile Clement Freud.


In my opinion Gerry took on the media as he was the stronger of the two,  Kate said that Gerry was used to giving lectures  he would do in his profession.  To say he was 'controlling' is rather over the top when Kate preferred Gerry to speak out for them.  Kate did get better at speaking as time went by.

So what if Kate did write about enjoying the company of Clement Freud?    I believe they took other family members with them on the first visit.   I think she felt a bit flattered as he was a well known person.  Why shouldn't they have had a short break from the horrors of their daughters disappearance?   A time to relax and just enjoy a meal,  they would soon slam back to reality as soon as it was over.    The McCann's wouldn't have known about his secrets,  they just knew him as a well known person.   Paedophile's are in all walks of life,   who knows you may have even encountered one yourself without knowing it.

If I found my child missing from her bed with the window open when it had never been opened all the time they had been in the apartment,  then she was not found in the apartment or anywhere around it,  then I would think 'abduction' and yes my first thought would be Paedophile as they are the people who usually abduct a child.  So what's all this Kate mentions Paedophile's of course she did,  it would be every mothers worse scenario.



Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 22, 2021, 05:41:49 PM
What a laughable suggestion IMO.  Why does Kate McCann need to make a public statement about Clement Freud?  Saying what exactly?  If your best mate turned out to be a paedophile what sort of a public statement would you make about it?

I'm not a public figure but if I was and (a) had publicly declared that I thought a paedophile had abducted my daughter and then (b) discovered I had been socialising with a paedophile and publicly stating what great company he was then yes without doubt I would go on public record and condemn the alleged actions of this man and state my abhorrence of his actions and my regret that I had ever had the misfortune of setting foot in his house.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on July 22, 2021, 05:46:33 PM
I'm not a public figure but if I was and (a) had publicly declared that I thought a paedophile had abducted my daughter and then (b) discovered I had been socialising with a paedophile and publicly stating what great company he was then yes without doubt I would go on public record and condemn the alleged actions of this man and state my abhorrence of his actions and my regret that I had ever had the misfortune of setting foot in his house.

Was Clement Freud ever found guilty?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 22, 2021, 05:50:54 PM

In my opinion Gerry took on the media as he was the stronger of the two,  Kate said that Gerry was used to giving lectures  he would do in his profession.  To say he was 'controlling' is rather over the top when Kate preferred Gerry to speak out for them.  Kate did get better at speaking as time went by.

So what if Kate did write about enjoying the company of Clement Freud?    I believe they took other family members with them on the first visit.   I think she felt a bit flattered as he was a well known person.  Why shouldn't they have had a short break from the horrors of their daughters disappearance?   A time to relax and just enjoy a meal,  they would soon slam back to reality as soon as it was over.    The McCann's wouldn't have known about his secrets,  they just knew him as a well known person.   Paedophile's are in all walks of life,   who knows you may have even encountered one yourself without knowing it.

If I found my child missing from her bed with the window open when it had never been opened all the time they had been in the apartment,  then she was not found in the apartment or anywhere around it,  then I would think 'abduction' and yes my first thought would be Paedophile as they are the people who usually abduct a child.  So what's all this Kate mentions Paedophile's of course she did,  it would be every mothers worse scenario.

Without doubt we jump to dark scenarios as parents but stranger abduction isn't the most common cause of missing children it is incredibly rare. You might have dark thoughts but to declare this is what has happened in public is a different reaction in my opinion. I draw no inference from this reaction. It was just the first in a string of alleged links with this case and paedophiles. It's led all the way to CB (now that RH is dead).
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 22, 2021, 05:54:12 PM
Was Clement Freud ever found guilty?

You know he wasn't. And as Dave is keen to point out that doesn't mean he wasn't guilty.

Do you believe his wife was wrong to accept the allegations and offer her sympathy to the victims?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on July 22, 2021, 05:59:22 PM
You know he wasn't. And as Dave is keen to point out that doesn't mean he wasn't guilty.

Do you believe his wife was wrong to accept the allegations and offer her sympathy to the victims?

Neither does it mean that he was guilty.  So not even an alleged paedophile.

I don't suppose you have a cite to his wife's statement, do you?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 22, 2021, 06:08:38 PM
I'm not a public figure but if I was and (a) had publicly declared that I thought a paedophile had abducted my daughter and then (b) discovered I had been socialising with a paedophile and publicly stating what great company he was then yes without doubt I would go on public record and condemn the alleged actions of this man and state my abhorrence of his actions and my regret that I had ever had the misfortune of setting foot in his house.
And if she had she would undoubtedly be accused by some of protesting too much.  Whatever abominations this man committed against children it goes without saying anyone in their right mind would be against it, but nothing can alter the fact that this man showed kindness towards Kate and her family at the time.  IMO The only people expecting Kate McCann to issue a public proclamation on the matter are the same people who criticise her whatever she does or doesn’t do.  Has this woman EVER done the right thing about anything in your view?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 22, 2021, 06:10:36 PM
You know he wasn't. And as Dave is keen to point out that doesn't mean he wasn't guilty.

Do you believe his wife was wrong to accept the allegations and offer her sympathy to the victims?
Yes, very interesting that you consider Freud to be a paedophile on the strength of witness testimony alone.   
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 22, 2021, 06:22:24 PM
Close personal friends of Clement Freud (far closer friends than Kate McCann) - how many of them have publicly condemned Freud for his alleged paedophilia since his death?
Bono
Alan Yentob
George Osborne
Mel Smith
Stephen Fry
Richard Curtis
Nicholas Parsons
Gyles Brandreth
Paul Merton
Graham Norton
Gordon Brown
 David Steel
What can we infer from their silence?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on July 22, 2021, 06:44:10 PM
Close personal friends of Clement Freud (far closer friends than Kate McCann) - how many of them have publicly condemned Freud for his alleged paedophilia since his death?
Bono
Alan Yentob
George Osborne
Mel Smith
Stephen Fry
Richard Curtis
Nicholas Parsons
Gyles Brandreth
Paul Merton
Graham Norton
Gordon Brown
 David Steel
What can we infer from their silence?

This is just another attempt to blacken Kate McCann.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Davel on July 22, 2021, 06:52:33 PM
Without doubt we jump to dark scenarios as parents but stranger abduction isn't the most common cause of missing children it is incredibly rare. You might have dark thoughts but to declare this is what has happened in public is a different reaction in my opinion. I draw no inference from this reaction. It was just the first in a string of alleged links with this case and paedophiles. It's led all the way to CB (now that RH is dead).

Stranger abduction is the most likely scenario in this instance imo annd SY and.the Germans seem to agree with me
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 22, 2021, 06:57:28 PM
This is just another attempt to blacken Kate McCann.
Obviously.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 22, 2021, 07:01:52 PM
Without doubt we jump to dark scenarios as parents but stranger abduction isn't the most common cause of missing children it is incredibly rare. You might have dark thoughts but to declare this is what has happened in public is a different reaction in my opinion. I draw no inference from this reaction. It was just the first in a string of alleged links with this case and paedophiles. It's led all the way to CB (now that RH is dead).
Try very, very, VERY hard to imagine that Kate McCann is an honest person and that you are in her shoes.  Did you manage it?  Right.  Now imagine you have entered your child’s bedroom and find the child gone and the window wide open, not how you left it.  Now what is your very first thought?  The your child opened the window and shutter by herself and climbed out the window? Or that someone has broken into the room and taken her?  Or that you child is playing a sick joke on you?  Which is the most plausible scenario in your opinion?  Now you might think the worst but you can’t quite believe it so you conduct a frantic search of the apartment and can’t find her.  You are panic stricken.  What are you thinking? 
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Anthro on July 22, 2021, 07:53:04 PM
Stranger abduction is the most likely scenario in this instance imo annd SY and.the Germans seem to agree with me
I fully agree, Davel. Just because stranger abduction is unlikely, doesn’t mean it will not happen and I believe this is/was Madeleine’s fate.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on July 22, 2021, 08:17:46 PM
Try very, very, VERY hard to imagine that Kate McCann is an honest person and that you are in her shoes.  Did you manage it?  Right.  Now imagine you have entered your child’s bedroom and find the child gone and the window wide open, not how you left it.  Now what is your very first thought?  The your child opened the window and shutter by herself and climbed out the window? Or that someone has broken into the room and taken her?  Or that you child is playing a sick joke on you?  Which is the most plausible scenario in your opinion?  Now you might think the worst but you can’t quite believe it so you conduct a frantic search of the apartment and can’t find her.  You are panic stricken.  What are you thinking?

It would help if there was cohesion in other accounts. Matthew Oldfield, for example, changed his account significantly over time. It moves from the whole group entering 5A to him not entering the bedroom to him not entering the apartment.

Matthew Oldfield
4th May
Then, the whole group went to Madeleine's bedroom and checked that the twins were sleeping OK. That there was no sign of a burglary in the apartment. Only one window in the childrens' bedroom was open. The window was open and the respective shutter
10th May
In view of such news all group members rushed to GM's apartment which was accessed through the rear entrance, namely by the sliding glass door facing the pool.
.
Asked, he relates that when he entered the apartment, from memory, he did not approach MBM's bedroom therefore cannot provide any details about its condition.
Rogatory interview
 If you ask whether we went, you know, into the apartment and I'm almost a hundred percent sure we didn't go to the apartment...
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: jassi on July 22, 2021, 08:22:07 PM
Aye, if they'd all been closely questioned the following day, the PJ might have got something approaching the truth. IMO
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 22, 2021, 08:34:10 PM
It would help if there was cohesion in other accounts. Matthew Oldfield, for example, changed his account significantly over time. It moves from the whole group entering 5A to him not entering the bedroom to him not entering the apartment.

Matthew Oldfield
4th May
Then, the whole group went to Madeleine's bedroom and checked that the twins were sleeping OK. That there was no sign of a burglary in the apartment. Only one window in the childrens' bedroom was open. The window was open and the respective shutter
10th May
In view of such news all group members rushed to GM's apartment which was accessed through the rear entrance, namely by the sliding glass door facing the pool.
.
Asked, he relates that when he entered the apartment, from memory, he did not approach MBM's bedroom therefore cannot provide any details about its condition.
Rogatory interview
 If you ask whether we went, you know, into the apartment and I'm almost a hundred percent sure we didn't go to the apartment...
That has absolutely nothing to do with my post or my point.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Anthro on July 22, 2021, 08:46:28 PM
Aye, if they'd all been closely questioned the following day, the PJ might have got something approaching the truth. IMO
Questioning everyone ‘the following day’ didn’t seem to be on the PJ’s agenda. In my opinion, they were never concerned/committed to Madeleine’s fate.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on July 22, 2021, 08:52:23 PM
That has absolutely nothing to do with my post or my point.

I can't help but wonder why one of their friends was happy to imply that he saw the open window in his first statement, but decided over time that not only did he not see it, but he was nowhere near it.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Anthro on July 22, 2021, 08:57:30 PM
It would help if there was cohesion in other accounts. Matthew Oldfield, for example, changed his account significantly over time. It moves from the whole group entering 5A to him not entering the bedroom to him not entering the apartment.

Matthew Oldfield
4th May
Then, the whole group went to Madeleine's bedroom and checked that the twins were sleeping OK. That there was no sign of a burglary in the apartment. Only one window in the childrens' bedroom was open. The window was open and the respective shutter
10th May
In view of such news all group members rushed to GM's apartment which was accessed through the rear entrance, namely by the sliding glass door facing the pool.
.
Asked, he relates that when he entered the apartment, from memory, he did not approach MBM's bedroom therefore cannot provide any details about its condition.
Rogatory interview
 If you ask whether we went, you know, into the apartment and I'm almost a hundred percent sure we didn't go to the apartment...
Don’t you think that Oldfield, in good faith, was under enormous pressure because he opted to do Kate’s check at 21h30, not sure if he saw Madeleine in her bed and him being suspected of been involved in Madeleine’s disappearance?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 22, 2021, 09:54:00 PM
I can't help but wonder why one of their friends was happy to imply that he saw the open window in his first statement, but decided over time that not only did he not see it, but he was nowhere near it.
Totally irrelevant to the point I was discussing with Billy.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on July 22, 2021, 10:56:28 PM
Don’t you think that Oldfield, in good faith, was under enormous pressure because he opted to do Kate’s check at 21h30, not sure if he saw Madeleine in her bed and him being suspected of been involved in Madeleine’s disappearance?

Why would that lead to his reluctance to admit to entering the children's bedroom at 10pm?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 22, 2021, 11:12:19 PM
Why would that lead to his reluctance to admit to entering the children's bedroom at 10pm?
Stop making things up please.  He was not reluctant to admit entering the children’s bedroom and this has got eff all to do with anything we were discussing, even less to do with the thread title. 
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on July 23, 2021, 12:03:37 AM
If you believe our well established legal system is protecting the victims of paedophiles then all I can do is stress that I believe, from tragic personal involvement, that you are very sadly mistaken.

Also I shouldn't respond to your ad hominem rhetoric but the sentence stating "the mother's self proclaimed enjoyment of socialising with Clement Freud" contains no misogyny whatsoever. It's a factual statement based on Kate McCann's book. For the record, in my opinion, Gerry McCann appears controlling in terms of the couple's public persona and how that is managed. However it was Kate who wrote about enjoying the company of the alleged paedophile Clement Freud.

Congratulations in managing to get an 'alleged' in there.

Now if you don't mind this is not a thread for traducing the McCanns - it is to discuss what is going on as far as we know in the here and now of Madeleine's case.
Please bear that in mind for future posts.  Thankyou
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 23, 2021, 12:30:35 AM
That has absolutely nothing to do with my post or my point.
I disagree. You were asking us to imagine our reaction to a scenario. There are conflicting accounts of the scenario as G-Unit is correctly pointing out. Asking how we might react to something that isn't an established fact is problematic.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 23, 2021, 12:34:34 AM
This is just another attempt to blacken Kate McCann.

I clearly stated I made no inference. Do you, however, think it "blackens her name" that she enjoyed the company of Clement Freud - just one of many alleged paedophile connections to this case, in my opinion.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 23, 2021, 12:35:48 AM
I can't help but wonder why one of their friends was happy to imply that he saw the open window in his first statement, but decided over time that not only did he not see it, but he was nowhere near it.

Very good point in my opinion.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 23, 2021, 01:00:31 AM
Congratulations in managing to get an 'alleged' in there.

Now if you don't mind this is not a thread for traducing the McCanns - it is to discuss what is going on as far as we know in the here and now of Madeleine's case.
Please bear that in mind for future posts.  Thankyou

If the here and now is centred on a paedophile surely it makes sense to examine the links from Day One to many other paedophiles. Maybe there are links to anyone of the thirty plus known paedophiles living in the area and CB.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 23, 2021, 07:06:35 AM
If the here and now is centred on a paedophile surely it makes sense to examine the links from Day One to many other paedophiles. Maybe there are links to anyone of the thirty plus known paedophiles living in the area and CB.
Why not leave it to the professionals, eh?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on July 23, 2021, 08:33:12 AM
If the here and now is centred on a paedophile surely it makes sense to examine the links from Day One to many other paedophiles. Maybe there are links to anyone of the thirty plus known paedophiles living in the area and CB.

Paedophiles don't all abuse children and not all child abusers are paedophiles. Brueckner's record suggests he was abusive to females of all ages, not just to children.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on July 23, 2021, 08:41:42 AM
Paedophiles don't all abuse children and not all child abusers are paedophiles. Brueckner's record suggests he was abusive to females of all ages, not just to children.

Not an ageist then.  There's something in his favour.  Thank God for small mercies.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 23, 2021, 09:24:44 AM
Paedophiles don't all abuse children and not all child abusers are paedophiles. Brueckner's record suggests he was abusive to females of all ages, not just to children.
paedophiles on the police radar are more than likely to have abused children or been complicit in their abuse.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on July 23, 2021, 10:01:00 AM
paedophiles on the police radar are more than likely to have abused children or been complicit in their abuse.

Well obviously. Until the police become involved they are unknown. Some, like Miles Bradbury, have power which they make use of to carry out their abuses;

Bradbury manipulated the system to perform "criminal, intimate examinations", the report found.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-34591633
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 23, 2021, 11:55:11 AM
Well obviously. Until the police become involved they are unknown. Some, like Miles Bradbury, have power which they make use of to carry out their abuses;

Bradbury manipulated the system to perform "criminal, intimate examinations", the report found.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-34591633
What was the point you were making with this observation then?
"Paedophiles don't all abuse children".
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on July 23, 2021, 12:04:46 PM
What was the point you were making with this observation then?
"Paedophiles don't all abuse children".

Then in that case they aren't paedophiles.

G Unit has obviously lost the plot.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 23, 2021, 12:10:27 PM
Then in that case they aren't paedophiles.

G Unit has obviously lost the plot.
I understand that you can have inclinations towards children and not act on them, so she is right in that respect but as we are discussing the idea of investigating all paedophiles in the PdL area wrt to the disappearance of a child I really don't see the relevance of this observation.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on July 23, 2021, 12:24:21 PM
I understand that you can have inclinations towards children and not act on them, so she is right in that respect but as we are discussing the idea of investigating all paedophiles in the PdL area wrt to the disappearance of a child I really don't see the relevance of this observation.

In that case how can anyone tell that someone might be a paedophile.  We might as well say that everyone has the potential to be a paedophile.

Is half of The World going around fancying small children?

What utter sick rubbish.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on July 23, 2021, 12:39:23 PM
Then in that case they aren't paedophiles.

G Unit has obviously lost the plot.

Miles Bradbury, I assume, had a sexual interest in children which led him to commit illegal actions. There are others who also have that interest but don't act upon it. Are they only paedophiles when they're caught? I don't think so. That's when they become known paedophiles.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on July 23, 2021, 01:06:13 PM
Miles Bradbury, I assume, had a sexual interest in children which led him to commit illegal actions. There are others who also have that interest but don't act upon it. Are they only paedophiles when they're caught? I don't think so. That's when they become known paedophiles.

How do you get to tell?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 23, 2021, 01:50:43 PM
I disagree. You were asking us to imagine our reaction to a scenario. There are conflicting accounts of the scenario as G-Unit is correctly pointing out. Asking how we might react to something that isn't an established fact is problematic.
Read my post back.  I asked you to TRY REALLY HARD TO IMAGINE KATE IS TELLING THE TRUTH.  Obviously you have no imagination.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 23, 2021, 02:02:47 PM
I clearly stated I made no inference. Do you, however, think it "blackens her name" that she enjoyed the company of Clement Freud - just one of many alleged paedophile connections to this case, in my opinion.
Just re-read what you wrote and tell us straight-faced that this was not a clear attempt to link Kate McCann to a paedophile, implying that she enjoyed spending time in the company of said paedophile (failing to point out that at the time she did not know he was a paedophile):

"And with regards to suspected paedophiles residing in the area what, pray tell, do you make of the "mother" and her self proclaimed fondness for socialising with Clement Freud?"

Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on July 23, 2021, 02:31:21 PM
Just re-read what you wrote and tell us straight-faced that this was not a clear attempt to link Kate McCann to a paedophile, implying that she enjoyed spending time in the company of said paedophile (failing to point out that at the time she did not know he was a paedophile):

"And with regards to suspected paedophiles residing in the area what, pray tell, do you make of the "mother" and her self proclaimed fondness for socialising with Clement Freud?"

BillyWhizz is just being silly.  No real need to get upset about this rubbish.

Clement Freud wasn't a paedophile and his wife knew nothing about any such thing.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 23, 2021, 02:57:16 PM
BillyWhizz is just being silly.  No real need to get upset about this rubbish.

Clement Freud wasn't a paedophile and his wife knew nothing about any such thing.
I think it's likely Freud was but I doubt even Billy Whizz Kid had any inkling that he was prior to the allegations being made.  To criticise someone or cast their integrity in doubt because they were friendly with someone who later turns out to have been depraved in their private life is a bit of a low blow but oh so typical of the average McCann basher IMO.  Any opportunity to get out the big pointy stick of blame and shame.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Lace on July 23, 2021, 04:09:24 PM
It would help if there was cohesion in other accounts. Matthew Oldfield, for example, changed his account significantly over time. It moves from the whole group entering 5A to him not entering the bedroom to him not entering the apartment.

Matthew Oldfield
4th May
Then, the whole group went to Madeleine's bedroom and checked that the twins were sleeping OK. That there was no sign of a burglary in the apartment. Only one window in the childrens' bedroom was open. The window was open and the respective shutter
10th May
In view of such news all group members rushed to GM's apartment which was accessed through the rear entrance, namely by the sliding glass door facing the pool.
.
Asked, he relates that when he entered the apartment, from memory, he did not approach MBM's bedroom therefore cannot provide any details about its condition.
Rogatory interview
 If you ask whether we went, you know, into the apartment and I'm almost a hundred percent sure we didn't go to the apartment...

The first paragraph on May 4th,  maybe should read they went to Madeleine's bedroom window [outside] ?

The second paragraph in my opinion,  relates to when he went to check on the McCann children he didn't enter the bedroom.

The last paragraph in my opinion should read that they didn't go into the apartment.

If you want to read things into those sentences you can,  but it is in my opinion quite easy to see it was not translated properly.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Lace on July 23, 2021, 04:14:18 PM
If the here and now is centred on a paedophile surely it makes sense to examine the links from Day One to many other paedophiles. Maybe there are links to anyone of the thirty plus known paedophiles living in the area and CB.

Well maybe Amaral did,  though he said an officer knocked on CB's door and didn't get an answer so maybe they didn't get an answer from the others either.

CB happens to be a Paedophile and also a burglar.   His phone pinged in the area of the Ocean Club,  he confessed to taking Madeleine to a friend,  why do that?   He told his girlfriend the day before Madeleine disappeared that he had a terrible job to do the next day,  but it will be the making of him [or similar words]  he then went to live in another part of Portugal after the 3rd of May then went back to Germany.   Dodgy or what?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Lace on July 23, 2021, 04:16:50 PM
Paedophiles don't all abuse children and not all child abusers are paedophiles. Brueckner's record suggests he was abusive to females of all ages, not just to children.

I think his wanting to take something small and abuse it for days,  tells you CB is a Paedophile.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on July 23, 2021, 05:54:43 PM
Madeleine McCann Search Granted Massive Financial Boost In Bid To Solve Investigation
BY : EMILY BROWN ON : 20 JUL 2021
The Home Office has granted the Metropolitan police a huge financial boost in an effort to solve the mystery of what happened when Madeleine McCann disappeared from her family’s apartment in May 2007.

In a statement cited by The Sun Online, a spokesperson for the Home Office said:

The Government has provided up to £350,000 for Operation Grange in 2021-22.

In line with our Special Grant processes, funding for Operation Grange is approved on an annual basis. Ministers have approved a request for £349,328 of funding for this financial year.
https://www.unilad.co.uk/news/madeleine-mccann-search-granted-massive-financial-boost-in-bid-to-solve-investigation/
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: jassi on July 23, 2021, 05:55:08 PM
I think his wanting to take something small and abuse it for days,  tells you CB is a Paedophile.

If you believe the Tabloids.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Wonderfulspam on July 23, 2021, 06:12:18 PM
Well maybe Amaral did,  though he said an officer knocked on CB's door and didn't get an answer so maybe they didn't get an answer from the others either.

CB happens to be a Paedophile and also a burglar.   His phone pinged in the area of the Ocean Club,  he confessed to taking Madeleine to a friend,  why do that?   He told his girlfriend the day before Madeleine disappeared that he had a terrible job to do the next day,  but it will be the making of him [or similar words]  he then went to live in another part of Portugal after the 3rd of May then went back to Germany.   Dodgy or what?

People fantasise about all sorts of weird things.

Every day I see people here imagining Maddie was abducted, for example.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 23, 2021, 07:08:21 PM
People fantasise about all sorts of weird things.

Every day I see people here imagining Maddie was abducted, for example.
What do you fantasise about Spam?  On second thoughts I’d rather not know, it’s bound to be extremely disturbing.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 23, 2021, 08:58:18 PM


Clement Freud wasn't a paedophile and his wife knew nothing about any such thing.


From alleged victim accounts Clement Freud's allegedly first abused children from the late 1940s.You don't have spells of your life when you are a paedophile and times when you're not! The accusations were not widely known in 2007 and they only became public about 8 or 9 years later. I have no idea what the McCann's knew about his alleged illegal and harmful sexual preferences and nor do you. However, like I said I make no inference from what Kate wrote in her book about socialising with this man.

I realise you are partisan when it comes to associates of the McCann's, but do you seriously believe what you wrote there? Your staunch insistence of his innocence strikes me as quite bizarre given the evidence against him. In my opinion it would be akin to declaring Jimmy Saville innocent of any sexual abuse crimes. Despite your assertion it has been widely reported that Freud's wife "apologised profusely to two alleged sexual abuse victims of her husband" (Dowell, 2016 et al) . It has also been reported that Police investigated links between Clement Freud and the Madeleine McCann case.

https://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/widow-profoundly-sorry-over-clement-freud-child-sex-abuse-allegations-as-links-to-madeleine-mccann-disappearance-investigated-34802990.html

https://www.radiotimes.com/tv/entertainment/sir-clement-freuds-widow-issues-heartfelt-apology-after-her-late-husband-is-named-as-sexual-abuser-of-an-underage-girl/

https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/crime/clement-freuds-widow-apologies-victims-catalogue-abuse-exposed-1796890

https://www.digitalspy.com/showbiz/a797824/clement-freuds-widow-issues-public-apology-over-sex-abuse-allegations/ 

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1284246/paedophile-sir-clement-freud-had-a-villa-close-to-where-madeleine-mccann-went-missing-as-police-are-urged-to-probe-link/


I do not know what the McCann's knew about him and nor do you
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 23, 2021, 09:02:00 PM
I think it's likely Freud was but I doubt even Billy Whizz Kid had any inkling that he was prior to the allegations being made.  To criticise someone or cast their integrity in doubt because they were friendly with someone who later turns out to have been depraved in their private life is a bit of a low blow but oh so typical of the average McCann basher IMO.  Any opportunity to get out the big pointy stick of blame and shame.

I said I made no inference from the friendship between the McCann's and Freud. As I said it's another example in a long list of where paedophiles have been linked to this case from Day One and culminating in the current investigation of CB.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 23, 2021, 09:03:59 PM
Well maybe Amaral did,  though he said an officer knocked on CB's door and didn't get an answer so maybe they didn't get an answer from the others either.

CB happens to be a Paedophile and also a burglar.   His phone pinged in the area of the Ocean Club,  he confessed to taking Madeleine to a friend,  why do that?   He told his girlfriend the day before Madeleine disappeared that he had a terrible job to do the next day,  but it will be the making of him [or similar words]  he then went to live in another part of Portugal after the 3rd of May then went back to Germany.   Dodgy or what?

Was it more or less dodgy than the actions RH in your opinion?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on July 23, 2021, 11:38:20 PM
I said I made no inference from the friendship between the McCann's and Freud. As I said it's another example in a long list of where paedophiles have been linked to this case from Day One and culminating in the current investigation of CB.

It is transparently obvious why you linked the issue of the unproved allegations made against Clement Freud and Kate McCann.

The determination to turn this forum into a cesspit is a never ending task for some 😁
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on July 23, 2021, 11:39:45 PM
Was it more or less dodgy than the actions RH in your opinion?

Who is RH?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 23, 2021, 11:41:50 PM
I said I made no inference from the friendship between the McCann's and Freud. As I said it's another example in a long list of where paedophiles have been linked to this case from Day One and culminating in the current investigation of CB.
what, pray tell, do you make of the "mother" and her self proclaimed fondness for socialising with Clement Freud?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 24, 2021, 01:04:01 AM
what, pray tell, do you make of the "mother" and her self proclaimed fondness for socialising with Clement Freud?

That is a question asking someone else what they make of Kate McCann's account of her and Gerry socialising with Clement Freud. I make no inference from her self proclaimed fond visit(s) with Freud who was later accused of child sexual abuse.

https://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/widow-profoundly-sorry-over-clement-freud-child-sex-abuse-allegations-as-links-to-madeleine-mccann-disappearance-investigated-34802990.html

An alleged paedophile in PDL may have links with CB, in my opinion. It would certainly be worth investigated along with the other 30+ known paedophiles that OG reportedly were also investigating.

I did express a personal opinion that I was surprised that after the allegations were made against Freud that the McCann's did not issue a public statement which states where they stand on said allegations. That's just my own personal surprise given what Kate wrote in her book. The book is still on sale. It is likely to be read by people who now know Freud is an alleged child abuser. No inference can be drawn from the lack of a public statement nor from the fond socialising, and neither is that intended.

Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 24, 2021, 02:31:43 AM
Who is RH?

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/madeleine-mccann-news-son-of-dead-paedophile-suspect-raymond-hewlett-thought-he-was-being-watched_uk_584e8adfe4b0b7ff851d56ca
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 24, 2021, 07:15:51 AM
That is a question asking someone else what they make of Kate McCann's account of her and Gerry socialising with Clement Freud. I make no inference from her self proclaimed fond visit(s) with Freud who was later accused of child sexual abuse.

https://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/widow-profoundly-sorry-over-clement-freud-child-sex-abuse-allegations-as-links-to-madeleine-mccann-disappearance-investigated-34802990.html

An alleged paedophile in PDL may have links with CB, in my opinion. It would certainly be worth investigated along with the other 30+ known paedophiles that OG reportedly were also investigating.

I did express a personal opinion that I was surprised that after the allegations were made against Freud that the McCann's did not issue a public statement which states where they stand on said allegations. That's just my own personal surprise given what Kate wrote in her book. The book is still on sale. It is likely to be read by people who now know Freud is an alleged child abuser. No inference can be drawn from the lack of a public statement nor from the fond socialising, and neither is that intended.
The question you originally asked is not the question you say you were asking.  If it had been you would have asked “what do you make of Kate’s lack of condemnation of a man whose company she enjoyed  subsequently accused of paedophilisa.”.  No, your question clearly asks what should we make of her enjoyment of being in the company of a paedophile.  Your post-rationalisation does not change thst.

As not one of Freud’s close celebrity friends issued a public statement condemning his actions as far as I’m aware I don’t see why the McCanns should be singled out for their failure to do so.  Do you think there is any possible likelihood that they don’t condemn his actions?  It may be important for you to gain this clarity but I would imagine that for 99% of those who have read the book it is of no consequence whatsoever. 
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on July 24, 2021, 07:36:09 AM
That is a question asking someone else what they make of Kate McCann's account of her and Gerry socialising with Clement Freud. I make no inference from her self proclaimed fond visit(s) with Freud who was later accused of child sexual abuse.

https://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/widow-profoundly-sorry-over-clement-freud-child-sex-abuse-allegations-as-links-to-madeleine-mccann-disappearance-investigated-34802990.html

An alleged paedophile in PDL may have links with CB, in my opinion. It would certainly be worth investigated along with the other 30+ known paedophiles that OG reportedly were also investigating.

I did express a personal opinion that I was surprised that after the allegations were made against Freud that the McCann's did not issue a public statement which states where they stand on said allegations. That's just my own personal surprise given what Kate wrote in her book. The book is still on sale. It is likely to be read by people who now know Freud is an alleged child abuser. No inference can be drawn from the lack of a public statement nor from the fond socialising, and neither is that intended.

What do you think would come of The McCanns making a public statement about someone who was never convicted of anything?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on July 24, 2021, 09:40:22 AM
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/madeleine-mccann-news-son-of-dead-paedophile-suspect-raymond-hewlett-thought-he-was-being-watched_uk_584e8adfe4b0b7ff851d56ca

On the night Madeleine was abducted Raymond Hewlett was within spitting distance of Praia da Luz ~ with transport ~ with a record ~ with the perfect hiding place of a van full of blonde children ~ " ... living with six children in a converted Dodge truck, when they met English couple ..."

Clement Freud was not in Portugal let alone in his villa a stone's throw from Luz.

Interesting that you should mention Hewlett though.

Did anyone other than McCann detectives attempt to check him out ~ or is he yet another paedophile like Brueckner who was studiously ignored by Portuguese police who really were studying every move and phone call made by their prime suspects.

Snip
However, it is hardly surprising that Kate and Gerry McCann's investigators are now forensically examining any possible link between Hewlett and their daughter's disappearance in 2007.


Hewlett "has been repeatedly jailed for a series of violent sexual offences against young girls.

Once featured on a Crimestoppers list of most wanted paedophiles, he is currently wanted for questioning by British police forces for the indecent assault of a young girl more than 30 years ago.

Several years ago Irish officers investigating a series of attempted abductions were seeking Hewlett, who had been posing as an undercover police officer to search for young girls or befriend their families to gain access to children.

'To say we need to trace this man is an understatement,' said one detective. But, as in the past, Hewlett was one step ahead of the law and had fled."
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1186788/Madeleine-McCanns-possible-abductor-Raymond-Hewlett-cunning-predator-30-years-depravity-him.html

You prove that the Algarve appears to have been awash with violent sexual predators when Madeleine was abducted particularly one with a record like Hewlett.  Doesn't it make you wonder why Amaral set his sights on the parents of missing children.

By the way, what you are doing by repeatedly dragging Freud into Madeleine's case based on "allegation" is against decency and Portuguese Law.
Freud isn't fifty years dead.

Criminal Defamation of the Deceased
Seriously offending the dead is punishable under Art. 185 of the Portuguese Criminal Code with a prison term of maximum six months or a fine of maximum 240 days, subject to the defences of truth and legitimate interest and the aggravating circumstances of slander. The statute of limitations is 50 years. http://legaldb.freemedia.at/legal-database/portugal/


Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 24, 2021, 01:11:43 PM
The question you originally asked is not the question you say you were asking.  If it had been you would have asked “what do you make of Kate’s lack of condemnation of a man whose company she enjoyed  subsequently accused of paedophilisa.”.  No, your question clearly asks what should we make of her enjoyment of being in the company of a paedophile.  Your post-rationalisation does not change thst.

As not one of Freud’s close celebrity friends issued a public statement condemning his actions as far as I’m aware I don’t see why the McCanns should be singled out for their failure to do so.  Do you think there is any possible likelihood that they don’t condemn his actions?  It may be important for you to gain this clarity but I would imagine that for 99% of those who have read the book it is of no consequence whatsoever.

Freud’s wife and the Liberal Democrats both made public statements that were unequivocal.

I make no inference from the fact that the McCanns chose not to as far as I am aware.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on July 24, 2021, 02:05:07 PM
Freud’s wife and the Liberal Democrats both made public statements that were unequivocal.

I make no inference from the fact that the McCanns chose not to as far as I am aware.

Indeed you do make an inference which you don't even recognise as such.

How can one speak unequivocally about the actions of an "alleged" paedophile ...

I have not continued that sentence because I believe to do so would be libellous.


Now that you have got all that guff out of your system ~ I expect you to return to the thread title as per forum rules, bearing in mind that what is said has to be sensitive regarding Brueckner's proven record which we have only recently discovered, thanks to Amaral.  I am sure there is more to come.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 24, 2021, 03:56:40 PM
Freud’s wife and the Liberal Democrats both made public statements that were unequivocal.

I make no inference from the fact that the McCanns chose not to as far as I am aware.
It's really not surprising Freud's wife to whom he was married for many years and the party he represented for many years made a public statement but that still doesn't explain why you think Kate McCann (not even a long term close personl friend) should have done so.  Oh well, there's nowt so queer as folk.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on July 24, 2021, 04:04:40 PM
It's really not surprising Freud's wife to whom he was married for many years and the party he represented for many years made a public statement but that still doesn't explain why you think Kate McCann (not even a long term close personl friend) should have done so.  Oh well, there's nowt so queer as folk.

Anything like that would have been gross impertinence in my opinion.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 24, 2021, 06:12:50 PM
Indeed you do make an inference which you don't even recognise as such.

How can one speak unequivocally about the actions of an "alleged" paedophile ...

I have not continued that sentence because I believe to do so would be libellous.


Now that you have got all that guff out of your system ~ I expect you to return to the thread title as per forum rules, bearing in mind that what is said has to be sensitive regarding Brueckner's proven record which we have only recently discovered, thanks to Amaral.  I am sure there is more to come.

I will post the statements after work but I stand by “unequivocal”
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on July 24, 2021, 06:29:11 PM
I will post the statements after work but I stand by “unequivocal”

Please do not post Mrs Freud's statement nor that from the LibDems.  We have all read them and both are "Off Topic" on this thread.
Clement Freud died in April 2009 the first allegations about him were made in June 2016.

These are not recent events and not associated with Madeleine's disappearance.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Anthro on July 24, 2021, 11:12:04 PM
“ A Portuguese source said: “The new information is pointing towards the fact two Russians could be behind it.”
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/15683398/madeleine-mccann-christian-b-documentary/
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 24, 2021, 11:20:23 PM
“ A Portuguese source said: “The new information is pointing towards the fact two Russians could be behind it.”
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/15683398/madeleine-mccann-christian-b-documentary/

There's going to be a few posters on this thread that will take issue with the "nothing concrete" claims. A few pages back it was claimed that CB's involvement was a "known" fact.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Anthro on July 24, 2021, 11:33:03 PM
There's going to be a few posters on this thread that will take issue with the "nothing concrete" claims. A few pages back it was claimed that CB's involvement was a "known" fact.
In my opinion, Mr Wolters has always maintained that Brückner killed Madeleine, not that he removed her from 5A.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on July 25, 2021, 12:06:29 AM
“ A Portuguese source said: “The new information is pointing towards the fact two Russians could be behind it.”
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/15683398/madeleine-mccann-christian-b-documentary/

The TV team, led by an ex-detective, are understood to have new witnesses.

A Portuguese source said: “The new information is pointing towards the fact two Russians could be behind it.”

The three-part Channel 5 documentary is set to air later this year.

   ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I may be proved wrong ~ but for me this has Amaral written all over it.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on July 25, 2021, 12:22:44 AM
In my opinion, Mr Wolters has always maintained that Brückner killed Madeleine, not that he removed her from 5A.

The TV team, led by an ex-detective, are understood to have new witnesses.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/15683398/madeleine-mccann-christian-b-documentary/


If they have "new witnesses" and there is an active investigation in progress shouldn't these witnesses be speaking to the police rather than appearing on a tv programme.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: misty on July 25, 2021, 02:12:26 AM
The TV team, led by an ex-detective, are understood to have new witnesses.

A Portuguese source said: “The new information is pointing towards the fact two Russians could be behind it.”

The three-part Channel 5 documentary is set to air later this year.

   ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I may be proved wrong ~ but for me this has Amaral written all over it.

Mark Williams-Thomas has been filming in Luz and is now heading to Germany.
https://mobile.twitter.com/mwilliamsthomas/with_replies
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on July 25, 2021, 06:52:16 AM
In my opinion, Mr Wolters has always maintained that Brückner killed Madeleine, not that he removed her from 5A.

He tried to place him nearby though, which suggests to me that he thought he was involved in the abduction. He also said they weren't looking for anyone else, I think.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 25, 2021, 08:11:37 AM
Mark Williams-Thomas has been filming in Luz and is now heading to Germany.
https://mobile.twitter.com/mwilliamsthomas/with_replies
Oh God, not him again.  His programmes are tutt.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: barrier on July 25, 2021, 09:03:28 AM
In my opinion, Mr Wolters has always maintained that Brückner killed Madeleine, not that he removed her from 5A.

Agreed, Wolters has never claimed his suspect took the girl out of 5a, bit difficult really, creeping in the dark past the cots to go and open the window and shutters then half inch her out that way without  leaving a trace without disturbing the twins or Madeleine into a screaming crying episode.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 25, 2021, 09:12:37 AM
Agreed, Wolters has never claimed his suspect took the girl out of 5a, bit difficult really, creeping in the dark past the cots to go and open the window and shutters then half inch her out that way without  leaving a trace without disturbing the twins or Madeleine into a screaming crying episode.
Jesus wept, we’ve been through this so many times.  Children have been taken by abductors from their beds asleep from rooms in which other siblings slept without waking, there was even a video posted recently proving it.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Davel on July 25, 2021, 09:14:34 AM
Agreed, Wolters has never claimed his suspect took the girl out of 5a, bit difficult really, creeping in the dark past the cots to go and open the window and shutters then half inch her out that way without  leaving a trace without disturbing the twins or Madeleine into a screaming crying episode.

I seem to remember Wolters mentioning abduction in relation too CB. He was  cerrtainly asked if he had evidence of CB being in 5a and he said he couldnt answer the question at that time
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: barrier on July 25, 2021, 09:36:25 AM
Jesus wept, we’ve been through this so many times.  Children have been taken by abductors from their beds asleep from rooms in which other siblings slept without waking, there was even a video posted recently proving it.

I seem to remember Wolters mentioning abduction in relation too CB. He was  cerrtainly asked if he had evidence of CB being in 5a and he said he couldnt answer the question at that time

Wolters says there's no forensics. CB was never in 5a, you'll get there in the end.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 25, 2021, 09:43:03 AM
Wolters says there's no forensics. CB was never in 5a, you'll get there in the end.
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, you’ll understand that one day (hopefully).
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Davel on July 25, 2021, 09:44:10 AM
Wolters says there's no forensics. CB was never in 5a, you'll get there in the end.

Im way ahead of you. Wolters has not said CB was never in 5a
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: barrier on July 25, 2021, 09:54:56 AM
Im way ahead of you. Wolters has not said CB was never in 5a

He doesn't need to, the world and his wife knows he wasn't.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 25, 2021, 10:01:42 AM
He doesn't need to, the world and his wife knows he wasn't.
@)(++(* please would the world and his wife present their definitive proof of this statement, ta alot.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: barrier on July 25, 2021, 11:33:43 AM
@)(++(* please would the world and his wife present their definitive proof of this statement, ta alot.

That burden lies with Wolters, if his suspect is the one, (however unlikely it is).
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on July 25, 2021, 11:40:23 AM
That burden lies with Wolters, if his suspect is the one, (however unlikely it is).

Brueckner is locked up for at least the next five years.  No one cares all that much at the moment.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: barrier on July 25, 2021, 12:06:09 PM
Brueckner is locked up for at least the next five years.  No one cares all that much at the moment.

Latest reports say's it possible MWT does.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 25, 2021, 12:07:08 PM
That burden lies with Wolters, if his suspect is the one, (however unlikely it is).
But you said the whole world knows t isn’t Brückner, so on what concrete proof did the whole world come to this conclusion?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on July 25, 2021, 12:13:13 PM
Latest reports say's it possible MWT does.

It certainly sounds like someone (probably MWT) is preparing a possible alternative to Wolters' thesis.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on July 25, 2021, 12:20:08 PM
It certainly sounds like someone (probably MWT) is preparing a possible alternative to Wolters' thesis.

Self aggrandisement again.  What has Mark Williams Thomas ever come up with before?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: barrier on July 25, 2021, 12:23:49 PM
Self aggrandisement again.  What has Mark Williams Thomas ever come up with before?


Think he suggests the woke and wandered scenario, with no sign of an intruder in 5a, more on the money than a stranger abduction from within.

4 yrs ago.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4246558/Journalist-Did-Madeleine-McCann-just-wander-off.html


But TV detective Mr Williams-Thomas, believes the unsettled youngster walked out of the unlocked apartment searching for her parents in the poolside restaurant.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on July 25, 2021, 12:33:32 PM
Self aggrandisement again.  What has Mark Williams Thomas ever come up with before?

I'm not particularly impressed by MWT, but he's as entitled to air his opinion as other programme makers/commentators are imo.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on July 25, 2021, 12:40:47 PM

Think he suggests the woke and wandered scenario, with no sign of an intruder in 5a, more on the money than a stranger abduction from within.

4 yrs ago.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4246558/Journalist-Did-Madeleine-McCann-just-wander-off.html


But TV detective Mr Williams-Thomas, believes the unsettled youngster walked out of the unlocked apartment searching for her parents in the poolside restaurant.

A failed Police Constable.  A bit like Martin Grime.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: jassi on July 25, 2021, 12:54:02 PM
A failed Police Constable.  A bit like Martin Grime.

Rubbishing MWT won't make him go away  8(0(*
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: jassi on July 25, 2021, 12:56:49 PM
I'm not particularly impressed by MWT, but he's as entitled to air his opinion as other programme makers/commentators are imo.

Oh indeed and who knows, he may come up with something new for us to dissect.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 25, 2021, 12:58:51 PM
Rubbishing MWT won't make him go away  8(0(*
Same can be said for HCW.  8)--))
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on July 25, 2021, 01:15:40 PM
Rubbishing MWT won't make him go away  8(0(*

Why would I want to?  He is doing a fine job on himself.  Just like all of the other wonkers.  Anything for a free ride.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on July 25, 2021, 01:16:54 PM
Oh indeed and who knows, he may come up with something new for us to dissect.

Ad Infinitum.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on July 25, 2021, 01:18:01 PM
Same can be said for HCW.  8)--))

Good One.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Davel on July 25, 2021, 01:46:45 PM
It certainly sounds like someone (probably MWT) is preparing a possible alternative to Wolters' thesis.

Not sure he can come up with  anything without access to all the evidence so it would be speculation based on speculation..
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: jassi on July 25, 2021, 01:59:48 PM
Sounds just the thing for this forum then.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on July 25, 2021, 02:52:55 PM
Mark Williams-Thomas has been filming in Luz and is now heading to Germany.
https://mobile.twitter.com/mwilliamsthomas/with_replies

                Thanks Misty.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on July 25, 2021, 03:28:15 PM
Agreed, Wolters has never claimed his suspect took the girl out of 5a, bit difficult really, creeping in the dark past the cots to go and open the window and shutters then half inch her out that way without  leaving a trace without disturbing the twins or Madeleine into a screaming crying episode.

Brueckner was on the rampage for many years behaving in the manner you describe.  Burglary sometimes involves creeping about in the dark past a variety of obstacles - we are told he entered a room full of sleeping teenagers one of whom raised the alarm causing him to run naked into the street to make his escape.

Burglars who leave traces behind them end up being addressed as 'prisoner in the dock'.

He spent a considerable amount of time raping and torturing a woman in her own home leaving only a pubic hair behind him.

My opinion is that for anyone with the record Brueckner has, entering and leaving apartment 5A would have been a dawdle.

So think again.  Brueckner wouldn't have seen either PeterMac or Heri in his way when it came to raising from outside the shutters sceptics have spent years tryng to convince the world it couldn't be done when it is patently obvious that is nonsense.

An officer attempts to enter the apartment through Maddie's bedroom window
(https://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/zzrebelo3d.jpg.w300h156.jpg)
Not only did he "attempt" to enter - he did enter via the window - and was apparently seen to hand a bundle through to his colleagues while the new coordinator watched what was obviously the reconstitution of a crime.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: sadie on July 25, 2021, 10:16:21 PM
“ A Portuguese source said: “The new information is pointing towards the fact two Russians could be behind it.”
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/15683398/madeleine-mccann-christian-b-documentary/

How exciting, but I wonder if they would only be middle level.  Involved but not the leaders?  Cos, I think that I have a pretty good idea who the leaders are.   I wonder what/who put them onto these Russians ?   *%6^


NOTE:   It must be 3 months that I have been excluded from forum, but today for some reason I am allowed back.   Not good enough John.  It needs sorting.  please
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Erngath on July 25, 2021, 10:45:30 PM
How exciting, but I wonder if they would only be middle level.  Involved but not the leaders?  Cos, I think that I have a pretty good idea who the leaders are.   I wonder what/who put them onto these Russians ?   *%6^


NOTE:   It must be 3 months that I have been excluded from forum, but today for some reason I am allowed back.   Not good enough John.  It needs sorting.  please

Good to see you posting.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: sadie on July 25, 2021, 11:54:33 PM
Good to see you posting.

Thankyou Erngath.

Hope i am here tomorrow !   Last time I got past the exclusion I was only in for a matter of hours before I was excluded again.

I don't think I have been norty or anything.  It's a mystery why it keeps hitting me.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 26, 2021, 04:11:55 AM
Brueckner was on the rampage for many years behaving in the manner you describe.  Burglary sometimes involves creeping about in the dark past a variety of obstacles - we are told he entered a room full of sleeping teenagers one of whom raised the alarm causing him to run naked into the street to make his escape.

Burglars who leave traces behind them end up being addressed as 'prisoner in the dock'.

He spent a considerable amount of time raping and torturing a woman in her own home leaving only a pubic hair behind him.

My opinion is that for anyone with the record Brueckner has, entering and leaving apartment 5A would have been a dawdle.

So think again.  Brueckner wouldn't have seen either PeterMac or Heri in his way when it came to raising from outside the shutters sceptics have spent years tryng to convince the world it couldn't be done when it is patently obvious that is nonsense.

An officer attempts to enter the apartment through Maddie's bedroom window
(https://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/zzrebelo3d.jpg.w300h156.jpg)
Not only did he "attempt" to enter - he did enter via the window - and was apparently seen to hand a bundle through to his colleagues while the new coordinator watched what was obviously the reconstitution of a crime.

Your comment on the teenagers makes Barriers point!!!!

What’s happened with the shutters on that still photo from the forensic journal aka Gerry’s blog? The reality is that no one on this forum has ever put forward evidence that the shutters were opened and Maddie taken out of the window by an abductor. The Tapas group who were first on the scene couldn’t agree on the window and shutters when first asked. Also an abductor would have to be watching goings on to operate so successfully in such a small window of opportunity. They would have known that checks involving going inside didn’t normally happen and also that the doors facing the pool were not locked!! Why not just go in through the door? The bottom line is there was no evidence to suggest a break in and abduction.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 26, 2021, 07:18:32 AM
Your comment on the teenagers makes Barriers point!!!!

What’s happened with the shutters on that still photo from the forensic journal aka Gerry’s blog? The reality is that no one on this forum has ever put forward evidence that the shutters were opened and Maddie taken out of the window by an abductor. The Tapas group who were first on the scene couldn’t agree on the window and shutters when first asked. Also an abductor would have to be watching goings on to operate so successfully in such a small window of opportunity. They would have known that checks involving going inside didn’t normally happen and also that the doors facing the pool were not locked!! Why not just go in through the door? The bottom line is there was no evidence to suggest a break in and abduction.
Yes there is - if you keep an open mind and don’t automatically assume everyone is lying about everything. 
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on July 26, 2021, 08:28:18 AM
Yes there is - if you keep an open mind and don’t automatically assume everyone is lying about everything.

Billy Whizz isn't here to keep an open mind, but only to disrupt and present half baked theories that suit the Sceptic Agenda.

There are several ways in which the abductor could have got in and out of the appartment and more than one reason for why the window was open.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on July 26, 2021, 08:30:56 AM
Your comment on the teenagers makes Barriers point!!!!

What’s happened with the shutters on that still photo from the forensic journal aka Gerry’s blog? The reality is that no one on this forum has ever put forward evidence that the shutters were opened and Maddie taken out of the window by an abductor. The Tapas group who were first on the scene couldn’t agree on the window and shutters when first asked. Also an abductor would have to be watching goings on to operate so successfully in such a small window of opportunity. They would have known that checks involving going inside didn’t normally happen and also that the doors facing the pool were not locked!! Why not just go in through the door? The bottom line is there was no evidence to suggest a break in and abduction.

You know for a fact that the abductor didn't go in through the unlocked patio door, do you?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Lace on July 26, 2021, 08:48:39 AM
Your comment on the teenagers makes Barriers point!!!!

What’s happened with the shutters on that still photo from the forensic journal aka Gerry’s blog? The reality is that no one on this forum has ever put forward evidence that the shutters were opened and Maddie taken out of the window by an abductor. The Tapas group who were first on the scene couldn’t agree on the window and shutters when first asked. Also an abductor would have to be watching goings on to operate so successfully in such a small window of opportunity. They would have known that checks involving going inside didn’t normally happen and also that the doors facing the pool were not locked!! Why not just go in through the door? The bottom line is there was no evidence to suggest a break in and abduction.


In my opinion the abductor did go in through the front door.    Did Amaral wonder how the man who entered apartments to abuse children got in?   Apparently the doors were locked.   Didn't CB have a woman accomplice who let him know which apartments to burgle?  In my opinion the window was opened in order for a quick escape,   Gerry had already turned up unexpectedly.   If Gerry had returned again he would have been cornered,  so the window was opened for escape.  If the abductor was CB he was a professional burglar,  children would not faze him.   I also wondered if Amaral took fingerprints in the apartments where the person who entered apartments at night to steal and abuse children. IMO
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Lace on July 26, 2021, 08:51:58 AM
How exciting, but I wonder if they would only be middle level.  Involved but not the leaders?  Cos, I think that I have a pretty good idea who the leaders are.   I wonder what/who put them onto these Russians ?   *%6^


NOTE:   It must be 3 months that I have been excluded from forum, but today for some reason I am allowed back.   Not good enough John.  It needs sorting.  please


Same here with the exclusion Sadie,   I've been excluded and now I am able to post again,  don't know how long it will last,  it has happened quite a few times now.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on July 26, 2021, 09:13:17 AM
Same here with the exclusion Sadie,   I've been excluded and now I am able to post again,  don't know how long it will last,  it has happened quite a few times now.

If you are having problems Logging In, try shutting everything down including Clearing History and then walk away for half an hour.
This usually works for me, although not always.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on July 26, 2021, 09:14:30 AM
Yes there is - if you keep an open mind and don’t automatically assume everyone is lying about everything.

I don't think anyone is assuming that everyone is lying about everything, although some people do seem to assume that everyone is telling the truth about everything imo. Uncorroberated statements in particular should not be relied on.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 26, 2021, 09:32:10 AM
I don't think anyone is assuming that everyone is lying about everything, although some people do seem to assume that everyone is telling the truth about everything imo. Uncorroberated statements in particular should not be relied on.
If you say there is no evidence of a break in then obviously you are assuming that Kate McCann is lying.  Now tell me I'm wrong.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Wonderfulspam on July 26, 2021, 09:46:29 AM
If you say there is no evidence of a break in then obviously you are assuming that Kate McCann is lying.  Now tell me I'm wrong.

Kate may have been mistaken.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 26, 2021, 10:01:29 AM
Kate may have been mistaken.
How?  The window was open according to her and this was confirmed by her husband - so was he also mistaken?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Wonderfulspam on July 26, 2021, 10:14:10 AM
How?  The window was open according to her and this was confirmed by her husband - so was he also mistaken?

Yes, eye witness testimony is notoriously unreliable.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on July 26, 2021, 10:27:46 AM
If you say there is no evidence of a break in then obviously you are assuming that Kate McCann is lying.  Now tell me I'm wrong.

Do you recall how Kate McCann described the bedroom curtains in the children's room? They were open, along with a window and the shutters. In her interviews in documentaries however, the curtains are described as closed and she demonstrates how they flew up in the breeze allowing her to notice the open window and shutters.

So which description is correct? Is Kate lying or misremembering?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: sadie on July 26, 2021, 11:05:17 AM
Do you recall how Kate McCann described the bedroom curtains in the children's room? They were open, along with a window and the shutters. In her interviews in documentaries however, the curtains are described as closed and she demonstrates how they flew up in the breeze allowing her to notice the open window and shutters.

So which description is correct? Is Kate lying or misremembering?

The first appearance upon looking in was that the curtains were normal, but then a gust of wind came and they were open. 

Simples, Gunit
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 26, 2021, 11:06:42 AM
Do you recall how Kate McCann described the bedroom curtains in the children's room? They were open, along with a window and the shutters. In her interviews in documentaries however, the curtains are described as closed and she demonstrates how they flew up in the breeze allowing her to notice the open window and shutters.

So which description is correct? Is Kate lying or misremembering?
Can you at least have the good grace to answer my question first before firing back at me with your own?  thanks awfully.  The issue is - evidence of abduction.  Kate's witness statement is evidence of such - unless you assume she is making the whole thing up, which is what I said in the first place, and which you decided to contradict.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 26, 2021, 11:10:07 AM
Yes, eye witness testimony is notoriously unreliable.
Indeed it is - it is still evidence however, no matter what you say.   In the same way that Smith's statement is evidence that Gerry McCann paraded a corpse through PdL that night.  You have decided he is 100% accurate and that Kate is 100% lying - that is a choice you have made but your opinion doesn't necessarily bear any relation to the actual truth of the matter.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: jassi on July 26, 2021, 11:11:44 AM
Kate may have been mistaken.

Of course she might. She was, after all, traumatised and may not have been thinking straight.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on July 26, 2021, 11:12:48 AM
The first appearance upon looking in was that the curtains were normal, but then a gust of wind came and they were open. 

Simples, Gunit

I think they are your words, not the words of the witness. Therefore they are describing your assumptions.

Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: jassi on July 26, 2021, 11:13:34 AM
I see that with the appearance of two Russian 'suspects', Brueckner may well be on the way to becoming a sub-prime suspect.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Wonderfulspam on July 26, 2021, 11:27:24 AM
Indeed it is - it is still evidence however, no matter what you say.   In the same way that Smith's statement is evidence that Gerry McCann paraded a corpse through PdL that night.  You have decided he is 100% accurate and that Kate is 100% lying - that is a choice you have made but your opinion doesn't necessarily bear any relation to the actual truth of the matter.

Who said anything about parading a corpse?

As I recall Smithman was alone with child walking down a quiet back street & appeared not to want to communicate with the Smith family.

A parade is a procession of people, there weren't twenty odd baton twirling Smithmen & a marching band.

It's almost as if your statement doesn't bear any relation to the truth.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Wonderfulspam on July 26, 2021, 11:31:32 AM
I see that with the appearance of two Russian 'suspects', Brueckner may well be on the way to becoming a sub-prime suspect.

I think it's only some ex dectective TV sleuth who believes Putin dunnit.

Obviously, he hasn't seen Wolters concrete evidence, the photos of Maddie & the evidence Brueckner was in 5a.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: jassi on July 26, 2021, 11:35:49 AM
I think it's only some ex dectective TV sleuth who believes Putin dunnit.

Obviously, he hasn't seen Wolters concrete evidence, the photos of Maddie & the evidence Brueckner was in 5a.

Has anyone ?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 26, 2021, 11:36:59 AM
Who said anything about parading a corpse?

As I recall Smithman was alone with child walking down a quiet back street & appeared not to want to communicate with the Smith family.

A parade is a procession of people, there weren't twenty odd baton twirling Smithmen & a marching band.

It's almost as if your statement doesn't bear any relation to the truth.
If it was an attempt to dispose of a corpse it was pretty damned brazen - uncovered, through the streets of a holiday town before closing time, then the same guy goes on international telly appealing for witnesses and info on said corpse's removal.  Anyway, nicely deflecting from my point I see - good effort.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Wonderfulspam on July 26, 2021, 11:39:14 AM
If it was an attempt to dispose of a corpse it was pretty damned brazen - uncovered, through the streets of a holiday town before closing time.  Anyway, nicely deflecting from my point I see - good effort.

Not really.

It was early season, late, dark, there was a hurricane blowing so people would be indoors & he was only seen by one family.

 
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: sadie on July 26, 2021, 12:04:34 PM
I think they are your words, not the words of the witness. Therefore they are describing your assumptions.

Come on Gunit.  Admit it.

I am not rereading all the statements but various videos have shown what happened and you WILL have seen them.



Common sense also tells you what happened.  Such cheap flimsy curtains would blow in a gust and it was a gusty evening. 

It does pose the question though.  What other windows/patio doors were open on the poolside, or mayb the eastern side of the apartment?  I think there must have been a gap somewhere for a draft lifting the curtains such as Kate described
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 26, 2021, 12:17:01 PM
Not really.

It was early season, late, dark, there was a hurricane blowing so people would be indoors & he was only seen by one family.
I missed the bit about the hurricane - what was its name?  Strange the Tapas Group decidded to eat outdoors during a hurricane.  Lucky they weren't blown away.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on July 26, 2021, 12:39:49 PM
Come on Gunit.  Admit it.

I am not rereading all the statements but various videos have shown what happened and you WILL have seen them.



Common sense also tells you what happened.  Such cheap flimsy curtains would blow in a gust and it was a gusty evening. 

It does pose the question though.  What other windows/patio doors were open on the poolside, or mayb the eastern side of the apartment?  I think there must have been a gap somewhere for a draft lifting the curtains such as Kate described

I've read the statements and watched the videos, I've even read the statements which, it was alleged, were leaked to a Spanish journalist. I can't judge which version is correct and I'm not as prepared to make assumptions as you are.

 
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 26, 2021, 12:44:09 PM
Hurricane Kate, the symptoms are gusty curtains & fake abductions.
I think the wind is all emanating from your direction today.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Lace on July 26, 2021, 12:45:34 PM
Hurricane Kate, the symptoms are gusty curtains & fake abductions.




Chapter Two Truth of the Lie

At the end of April 2007, it's spring in the Algarve, even if the weather is particularly gloomy. It rains often. While the sun shines, the temperature becomes pleasant, but the nights are cold and windy.


Note - the nights were cold and WINDY
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 26, 2021, 12:51:40 PM
I've read the statements and watched the videos, I've even read the statements which, it was alleged, were leaked to a Spanish journalist. I can't judge which version is correct and I'm not as prepared to make assumptions as you are.
One of the tactics of the typical conspiracy theorist is to focus on minor discrepancies between witness statements or in accounts given months or years after the event and blow their relevance or importance out of all proportion.   Do you recognise this sort of behaviour?  I have seen it time and again in this case, and in most other conspiracy theorists' arguments whether it be 9/11, Sandy Hook, moon landings whatever.  It's a bit sad really, don't you think, that such people have to rely on such tactics in order to try and convince the rest of the world that they are right and cleverer and more perceptive than the majority?  I definitely recognise this in this case and think it's quite pathetic behaviour.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on July 26, 2021, 12:52:14 PM
Your comment on the teenagers makes Barriers point!!!!

What’s happened with the shutters on that still photo from the forensic journal aka Gerry’s blog? The reality is that no one on this forum has ever put forward evidence that the shutters were opened and Maddie taken out of the window by an abductor. The Tapas group who were first on the scene couldn’t agree on the window and shutters when first asked. Also an abductor would have to be watching goings on to operate so successfully in such a small window of opportunity. They would have known that checks involving going inside didn’t normally happen and also that the doors facing the pool were not locked!! Why not just go in through the door? The bottom line is there was no evidence to suggest a break in and abduction.

"Your comment on the teenagers makes Barriers point!!!!"

Rather it makes my point that an intruder – in this example, Brueckner – is capable of entering an occupied property completely unobserved.

As for the rest of your post, bearing in mind the amount of bandwith it has consumed over the years, it is simply tiresome.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on July 26, 2021, 01:02:36 PM
I don't think anyone is assuming that everyone is lying about everything, although some people do seem to assume that everyone is telling the truth about everything imo. Uncorroberated statements in particular should not be relied on.

A material witness is being called a liar.  Very rich when the accusation originates from the delusion of a serial liar who actually had a suspended prison sentence and conviction for lying (perjury by forging official documents).

More recently he has lied in a deliberate attempt to derail the German investigation into Madeleine's fate.  Is it possible to sink any lower yet still have a following believing and promulgating every word.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on July 26, 2021, 01:07:44 PM
Of course she might. She was, after all, traumatised and may not have been thinking straight.

Do you know, I think that is the most offensive passively aggressive posts I have ever read.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 26, 2021, 01:32:56 PM
Yes, like I said, early season so cold & windy.

Wouldn't be as many people around as there would be on warmer summer nights, with the obvious exception being that endless number of men seen lurking suspiciously close to the McCanns apartment.
As the Smiths were out and about that evening your point is moot.  Do you think Smithman thought to himself "oh it's a windy night, I should be fine to carry an uncovered corpse through town because everyone is bound to be indoors"?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on July 26, 2021, 01:57:47 PM

Enough of Insulting Comments.

Warning Points come next.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on July 26, 2021, 02:20:43 PM
A material witness is being called a liar.  Very rich when the accusation originates from the delusion of a serial liar who actually had a suspended prison sentence and conviction for lying (perjury by forging official documents).

More recently he has lied in a deliberate attempt to derail the German investigation into Madeleine's fate.  Is it possible to sink any lower yet still have a following believing and promulgating every word.

Once again I'm being accused of something I haven't done. Where exactly did you see a material witness being called a liar by me?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 26, 2021, 02:23:34 PM
Once again I'm being accused of something I haven't done. Where exactly did you see a material witness being called a liar by me?
Quite, you're far too canny for that, yet only a complete idiot would fail to spot the continual veiled accusations emanating from your posts.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on July 26, 2021, 02:27:13 PM
Quite, you're far too canny for that, yet only a complete idiot would fail to spot the continual veiled accusations emanating from your posts.

Veiled?  I must have missed that.  Nothing veiled about them.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on July 26, 2021, 02:40:59 PM
Quite, you're far too canny for that, yet only a complete idiot would fail to spot the continual veiled accusations emanating from your posts.

So I make veiled accusations, do I? On the other hand these veiled accusations may exist only in the minds of the readers.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 26, 2021, 03:10:22 PM
So I make veiled accusations, do I? On the other hand these veiled accusations may exist only in the minds of the readers.
You obviously take some of us for complete fools.  It's blatantly obvious to me (and I would suggest also to any neutral or supporter) from your posting history that you think (at the very, VERY least) that the McCanns and their friends lied in their statements.  You are a sceptic are you not?  Which means that at the very least you are sceptical about the McCanns and their friends' version of events.  Now, you may CLAIM that you think it's possible that this is due to mistakes on all their parts but do you really expect us to believe you seriously entertain that possibility?  You've made it absolutely plain you won't accept translation errors for any of the discrepancies so its not a stretch for me to come to the conclusion that you don't accept plain old human fallibility either - in fact you said as much yesterday IIRC.  You have also made the claim that IYO abduction was virtually impossible so please stop trying to play the *innocent face* card - it's very very boring now. 
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 26, 2021, 03:12:02 PM
Veiled?  I must have missed that.  Nothing veiled about them.
Quite - she rather gave the game away when she liked Spam's post in which he claimed Amaral solved the case in May 2007.  There is absolutely nothing objective or even-handed about this poster. IMO.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on July 26, 2021, 03:22:02 PM
Quite - she rather gave the game away when she liked Spam's post in which he claimed Amaral solved the case in May 2007.  There is absolutely nothing objective or even-handed about this poster. IMO.

Some people give themselves away without even meaning to.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on July 26, 2021, 03:33:16 PM
So I make veiled accusations, do I? On the other hand these veiled accusations may exist only in the minds of the readers.

What the reader takes from a post is very important.  Ask 😁 Sally Bercow
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on July 26, 2021, 05:05:07 PM

We all know what is going on here at the moment.  But hardly worth talking about.  And I don't care anyway.

It isn't going to happen.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on July 26, 2021, 07:32:58 PM
You obviously take some of us for complete fools.  It's blatantly obvious to me (and I would suggest also to any neutral or supporter) from your posting history that you think (at the very, VERY least) that the McCanns and their friends lied in their statements.  You are a sceptic are you not?  Which means that at the very least you are sceptical about the McCanns and their friends' version of events.  Now, you may CLAIM that you think it's possible that this is due to mistakes on all their parts but do you really expect us to believe you seriously entertain that possibility?  You've made it absolutely plain you won't accept translation errors for any of the discrepancies so its not a stretch for me to come to the conclusion that you don't accept plain old human fallibility either - in fact you said as much yesterday IIRC.  You have also made the claim that IYO abduction was virtually impossible so please stop trying to play the *innocent face* card - it's very very boring now.

If the McCanns and their friends were so traumatised that their memories were  adversely affected how can anyone know what is correct?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: barrier on July 26, 2021, 07:44:42 PM
If you say there is no evidence of a break in then obviously you are assuming that Kate McCann is lying.  Now tell me I'm wrong.

Quote
Clarence Mitchell:"There was no evidence of a break-in,"
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on July 26, 2021, 07:52:48 PM
If the McCanns and their friends were so traumatised that their memories were  adversely affected how can anyone know what is correct?

Let's start with the fact Madeleine vanished then take it from there not with 'theories' but with EVIDENCE.  Which is precisely what Wolters is doing at the moment.  He has access to most of it enabling an informed opinion and you know nothing so like the rest you will have to wait.

You ask "how can anyone know what is correct?"don't you think trained police investigators are far more qualified than you to form opinions.
At the moment no-one except perhaps you is interested in rehashing Amaral's disastrous mistakes of 2007 - they are all far too busy waiting to see what Wolter's witnesses are saying in the here and now of 2021.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on July 26, 2021, 08:55:06 PM
Let's start with the fact Madeleine vanished then take it from there not with 'theories' but with EVIDENCE.  Which is precisely what Wolters is doing at the moment.  He has access to most of it enabling an informed opinion and you know nothing so like the rest you will have to wait.

You ask "how can anyone know what is correct?"don't you think trained police investigators are far more qualified than you to form opinions.
At the moment no-one except perhaps you is interested in rehashing Amaral's disastrous mistakes of 2007 - they are all far too busy waiting to see what Wolter's witnesses are saying in the here and now of 2021.

Yes, she vanished and no-one knows why. Abduction is a theory, whether you accept that or not. The trained Portuguese police investigators didn't find enough evidence to identify the crime. The Portuguese authorities made that plain when they archived the case in 2008.

Operation Grange seem to have decided Madeleine was abducted, but their reasons have never been made clear. We do have A C Rowley's comment, that she was too young to have gone off to start a new life, but no-one ever thought she had anyway. It seems like a very weak reason to assume abduction, but no doubt someone shared it with Wolters and he agreed.

I wonder if Wolters has found any witnesses who haven't shared their knowledge with the media?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 26, 2021, 10:19:25 PM
If the McCanns and their friends were so traumatised that their memories were  adversely affected how can anyone know what is correct?
But you’ve already said you find it  hard to believe 9 people could all have remembered differently so I think we can make a very reasonable assumption regarding your views about it. Don’t bother responding unless it’s to reply honestly and without fudge and deflection.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 26, 2021, 10:38:39 PM
Yes, she vanished and no-one knows why. Abduction is a theory, whether you accept that or not. The trained Portuguese police investigators didn't find enough evidence to identify the crime. The Portuguese authorities made that plain when they archived the case in 2008.

Operation Grange seem to have decided Madeleine was abducted, but their reasons have never been made clear. We do have A C Rowley's comment, that she was too young to have gone off to start a new life, but no-one ever thought she had anyway. It seems like a very weak reason to assume abduction, but no doubt someone shared it with Wolters and he agreed.

I wonder if Wolters has found any witnesses who haven't shared their knowledge with the media?
You think Wolters is investigating CB because of Rowley’s comment about Madeleine being too young to go off on her own?  Please don’t be silly.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 26, 2021, 10:39:41 PM
One of the tactics of the typical conspiracy theorist is to focus on minor discrepancies between witness statements or in accounts given months or years after the event and blow their relevance or importance out of all proportion.   Do you recognise this sort of behaviour?  I have seen it time and again in this case, and in most other conspiracy theorists' arguments whether it be 9/11, Sandy Hook, moon landings whatever.  It's a bit sad really, don't you think, that such people have to rely on such tactics in order to try and convince the rest of the world that they are right and cleverer and more perceptive than the majority?  I definitely recognise this in this case and think it's quite pathetic behaviour.

How about you just look at the very first statements (rehearsed on a book cover) given in the first few days... and before you say "lost in translation" don't forget they willingly signed them. The fact is (as even Clarence admitted at one point) there was no evidence found to suggest a break in and abduction. There did, however, seem to be a very public campaign to promote this version of events. Forget "conspiracy theories". That's just lazy sloganeering. Concentrate on the evidence.... and remind us again what evidence is there to suggest a break in and stranger abduction?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 26, 2021, 10:41:40 PM
The first appearance upon looking in was that the curtains were normal, but then a gust of wind came and they were open. 

Simples, Gunit

Normal as in open or normal as in closed?!!
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 26, 2021, 10:43:18 PM
Indeed it is - it is still evidence however, no matter what you say.   In the same way that Smith's statement is evidence that Gerry McCann paraded a corpse through PdL that night.  You have decided he is 100% accurate and that Kate is 100% lying - that is a choice you have made but your opinion doesn't necessarily bear any relation to the actual truth of the matter.

I agree - but have the sense to understand that works two ways|!!
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 26, 2021, 10:46:59 PM
Yes there is - if you keep an open mind and don’t automatically assume everyone is lying about everything.

I don't assume they are lying. I just don't know which of their accounts is anywhere near accurate.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 26, 2021, 10:50:17 PM
Billy Whizz isn't here to keep an open mind, but only to disrupt and present half baked theories that suit the Sceptic Agenda.

There are several ways in which the abductor could have got in and out of the appartment and more than one reason for why the window was open.

Why does expressing my opinion automatically go down as disruption in your eyes? Would you prefer an echo chamber where everyone just agrees CB, or the latest paedophile suspect, is the guilty party?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 26, 2021, 10:51:42 PM
I agree - but have the sense to understand that works two ways|!!
If you read my post again you will see that I “have the sense” to see it both ways by referencing the Smiths testimony as evidence so please don’t be so rude.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 26, 2021, 10:53:09 PM
You know for a fact that the abductor didn't go in through the unlocked patio door, do you?

That's a loaded question!!! We don't even know for a fact there was an abductor!! We need to be open minded remember!! We need to look at evidence... and something more concrete than hearsay.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 26, 2021, 10:54:05 PM
I don't assume they are lying. I just don't know which of their accounts is anywhere near accurate.
I’m sorry but if you don’t accept Kate’s account of the open window is evidence of an abduction then that can only be brcause you think she is lying, please don’t deny it and pretend you think she might have been mistaken - that’s codswallop.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 26, 2021, 10:56:11 PM
That's a loaded question!!! We don't even know for a fact there was an abductor!! We need to be open minded remember!! We need to look at evidence... and something more concrete than hearsay.
Do you accept Kate may be telling the truth?  Do you accept the window may have been open?  If so do you accept that this would be evidence of an abduction?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Wonderfulspam on July 26, 2021, 10:58:16 PM
Do you accept Kate may be telling the truth?  Do you accept the window may have been open?  If so do you accept that this would be evidence of an abduction?

No.

A burglar could have opened the window, seen the children & then decided not to rob the place.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 26, 2021, 10:59:17 PM
No.

A burglar could have opened the window, seen the children & then decided not to rob the place.
So an open window definitely can be ruled out as evidence of abduction because….?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Wonderfulspam on July 26, 2021, 11:00:21 PM
So an open window definitely can be ruled out as evidence of abduction because….?

because it isn't evidence of abduction.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 26, 2021, 11:04:55 PM
because it isn't evidence of abduction.
Explain why an open window (that was left closed)  in a missing child’s bedroom is not evidence of abduction.  What rules it out as evidence?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Wonderfulspam on July 26, 2021, 11:07:29 PM
Explain why an open window (that was left closed)  in a missing child’s bedroom is not evidence of abduction.  What rules it out as evidence?

I don't have to explain anything.

Statements as fact without supporting evidence are permissible under new forum rules, apparently.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 26, 2021, 11:08:58 PM
I don't have to explain anything.

Statements as fact without supporting evidence are permissible under new forum rules, apparently.
In this case an open window was evidence if abduction.  Why in this case but not in the McCann case?

https://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/04/isabel-celis-6-year-old-girl-vanishes-from-tucson-arizona-home
I don’t think you know how to answer this question.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Wonderfulspam on July 26, 2021, 11:10:07 PM
In this case an open window was evidence if abduction.  Why in this case but not in the McCann case?

https://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/04/isabel-celis-6-year-old-girl-vanishes-from-tucson-arizona-home
I don’t think you know how to answer this question.

Because Maddie wasn't abducted.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 26, 2021, 11:31:23 PM
If you read my post again you will see that I “have the sense” to see it both ways by referencing the Smiths testimony as evidence so please don’t be so rude.

Well obviously you can't ignore the Smith sighting as it's important evidence, but you didn't really present it in an open minded way did you. Talk of it being evidence of GM "parading" a corpse around the streets of PDL was an exaggeration of the events in an attempt to keep the reader's mind focussed away from certain conclusions. The use of that intransitive implies deliberately being exhibitive, flaunting something even, deliberately doing something to make people look at what you're doing. I didn't get that impression of Smithman from the family statements. Let's be open minded and lets examine the concrete evidence (not hearsay) which suggests there was a break in (or walk in) and an abduction. I'm still waiting to see this evidence but when I do I'll be quite happy to examine it with an open mind because like everyone else here I do not know what happened to Madeleine McCann.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 26, 2021, 11:34:27 PM
Because Maddie wasn't abducted.
I knew you wouldn’t be able to explain and I was right.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 26, 2021, 11:37:18 PM
Well obviously you can't ignore the Smith sighting as it's important evidence, but you didn't really present it in an open minded way did you. Talk of it being evidence of GM "parading" a corpse around the streets of PDL was an exaggeration of the events in an attempt to keep the reader's mind focussed away from certain conclusions. The use of that intransitive implies deliberately being exhibitive, flaunting something even, deliberately doing something to make people look at what you're doing. I didn't get that impression of Smithman from the family statements. Let's be open minded and lets examine the concrete evidence (not hearsay) which suggests there was a break in (or walk in) and an abduction. I'm still waiting to see this evidence but when I do I'll be quite happy to examine it with an open mind because like everyone else here I do not know what happened to Madeleine McCann.
So you don’t accept Kate’s statement is evidence but you do accept Smith’s satement is evidence, that’s what I discern from the above.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: sadie on July 27, 2021, 12:21:06 AM
Normal as in open or normal as in closed?!!

Oh, Billy, please don't act like a simpleton.  We know that you are not.



For any simpletons around:

We all know that with very cheap flimsy curtains such as these, when a sturdy gust of wind blows them, they fly inwards and open.

Hadn't you noticed that Billy?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: sadie on July 27, 2021, 01:45:15 AM
I've read the statements and watched the videos, I've even read the statements which, it was alleged, were leaked to a Spanish journalist. I can't judge which version is correct and I'm not as prepared to make assumptions as you are.

Gunit, please acknowledge that a decent gust would blow such cheap flimsy curtains and open closed ones in doing so.   They may have reclosed after the gust or they may have stayed open depending upon if the runners were free running. 

From memory, the bigger gusts were recorded at over 20mph at about the time Kate checked.   



Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on July 27, 2021, 01:49:00 AM
Oh, Billy, please don't act like a simpleton.  We know that you are not.



For any simpletons around:

We all know that with very cheap flimsy curtains such as these, when a sturdy gust of wind blows them, they fly inwards and open.

Hadn't you noticed that Billy?

We've seen Rebelo at the widow of No5 making an inspection.
Obviously he must have been satisfied by what he saw.
(http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/zzrebelo2d.jpg.w300h156.jpg)
Paulo Rebelo opens the window to Maddie's bedroom
Two things to note
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: barrier on July 27, 2021, 06:02:08 AM
Why does expressing my opinion automatically go down as disruption in your eyes? Would you prefer an echo chamber where everyone just agrees CB, or the latest paedophile suspect, is the guilty party?
Of course it would , but maybe not from that particular poster.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 27, 2021, 07:53:42 AM
It’s clear to me that G-Unit, Billy, Spam et al have double standards when it comes to accepting what is evidence.  Hearsay evidence if it’s against the McCanns is “important “, “concrete”, etc, but hearsay evidence from the McCanns themselves is not considered evidence at all.  I think that just about sums up the problem we have here.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Wonderfulspam on July 27, 2021, 08:23:01 AM
The McCanns couldn't be trusted to look after their own kids. So it isn't unreasonable to doubt them on any other given subject.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 27, 2021, 08:32:11 AM
The McCanns couldn't be trusted to look after their own kids. So it isn't unreasonable to doubt them on any other given subject.
I’m not talking about trustworthiness (how well do you know Mr Smith for example?) I’m talking about the concept of evidence - you accept Smith’s statement as evidence, you don’t accept Kates’s statement as evidence. Whether both or neither is true or false is beside the point as far as the concept of what constitutes evidence is concerned.  I know there is no point trying to appeal to your sense of fairness or reasonabless, hopefully though others will understand what I am saying.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on July 27, 2021, 08:40:20 AM
It’s clear to me that G-Unit, Billy, Spam et al have double standards when it comes to accepting what is evidence.  Hearsay evidence if it’s against the McCanns is “important “, “concrete”, etc, but hearsay evidence from the McCanns themselves is not considered evidence at all.  I think that just about sums up the problem we have here.

Firstly, I'm not sure you understand what hearsay evidence is, but if you give some examples I will probably understand what you mean.

Secondly, the evidence relating to the open window and shutters was uncorroberated (like the dog alerts). They weren't seen by any of the witnesses present and there was no forensic evidence confirming they had been opened.
The PJ doubted that it was possible that a draught would have the effect described by one of the witnesses;

The situation that concerns the window of the bedroom where MADELEINE slept, together with the twins, which was open, according to KATE. It would be necessary to clarify whether there was a draft, due to the fact that movement of the curtains and pressure under the bedroom door are mentioned, which would eventually be clarified through the reconstitution.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/P_J_FINAL_REPORT.htm

 




Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on July 27, 2021, 08:47:46 AM
Gunit, please acknowledge that a decent gust would blow such cheap flimsy curtains and open closed ones in doing so.   They may have reclosed after the gust or they may have stayed open depending upon if the runners were free running. 

From memory, the bigger gusts were recorded at over 20mph at about the time Kate checked.

I am not able to judge the cost and weight of a set of curtains from a photograph, but they don't appear particularly cheap and flimsy to me. Therefore I'm not prepared to speculate about how they might behave. I'm also aware that there is disagreement about the weather that evening.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 27, 2021, 09:07:01 AM
Firstly, I'm not sure you understand what hearsay evidence is, but if you give some examples I will probably understand what you mean.

Secondly, the evidence relating to the open window and shutters was uncorroberated (like the dog alerts). They weren't seen by any of the witnesses present and there was no forensic evidence confirming they had been opened.
The PJ doubted that it was possible that a draught would have the effect described by one of the witnesses;

The situation that concerns the window of the bedroom where MADELEINE slept, together with the twins, which was open, according to KATE. It would be necessary to clarify whether there was a draft, due to the fact that movement of the curtains and pressure under the bedroom door are mentioned, which would eventually be clarified through the reconstitution.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/P_J_FINAL_REPORT.htm
It was Billy Whizz who  used the word “hearsay” to describe Kate’s statement about the open window.  He rejects her statement as evidence of abduction- do you?  If so why?  Sometimes evidence is given in court with no corroboration, it’s still evidence is it not?  Finally, you also appear to reject completely the fact that the open window WAS corroborated by an independent witness, why is her account not evidence of an abduction  in your view?  You may have decided she was wrong or lying but it doesn’t stop her statement being evidence. 
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 27, 2021, 09:08:20 AM
I am not able to judge the cost and weight of a set of curtains from a photograph, but they don't appear particularly cheap and flimsy to me. Therefore I'm not prepared to speculate about how they might behave. I'm also aware that there is disagreement about the weather that evening.
So basically you reject any other explanation other than that Kate McCann misremembered or lied, right?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on July 27, 2021, 09:09:55 AM
I’m not talking about trustworthiness (how well do you know Mr Smith for example?) I’m talking about the concept of evidence - you accept Smith’s statement as evidence, you don’t accept Kates’s statement as evidence. Whether both or neither is true or false is beside the point as far as the concept of what constitutes evidence is concerned.  I know there is no point trying to appeal to your sense of fairness or reasonabless, hopefully though others will understand what I am saying.

Smith's evidence was corroberated by other family members. They all saw the man carrying the child and were all agreed about his description. If you are referring to Smith's later claim that the man was Gerry McCann, that was his uncorroborated opinion to which he's entitled. As it's uncorroborated, it may be nothing (like the dog alerts) or it may be intelligence (like the dog alerts).

Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Davel on July 27, 2021, 09:11:45 AM
It was Billy Whizz who  used the word “hearsay” to describe Kate’s statement about the open window.  He rejects her statement as evidence of abduction- do you?  If so why?  Sometimes evidence is given in court with no corroboration, it’s still evidence is it not?  Finally, you also appear to reject completely the fact that the open window WAS corroborated by an independent witness, why is her account not evidence of an abduction  in your view?  You may have decided she was wrong or lying but it doesn’t stop her statement being evidence.
Just a point of law.. Kates statement is not hearsay. Hearsay evidence is when a statement is produced where the person who made the statement is not oresent in court
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 27, 2021, 09:20:12 AM
Just a point of law.. Kates statement is not hearsay. Hearsay evidence is when a statement is produced where the person who made the statement is not oresent in court
Point taken.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 27, 2021, 09:23:53 AM
Smith's evidence was corroberated by other family members. They all saw the man carrying the child and were all agreed about his description. If you are referring to Smith's later claim that the man was Gerry McCann, that was his uncorroborated opinion to which he's entitled. As it's uncorroborated, it may be nothing (like the dog alerts) or it may be intelligence (like the dog alerts).
You accept corroborated evidence from friends and family except when its friends and family evidence corroborating the McCanns’ account then? 
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 27, 2021, 09:37:14 AM
As I recall The Ciprianos were convicted on the strength of one uncorroborated confession, and one unoccoborated witness sighting of Joana apparently on her way home.   So - how come that's good enough for McCann sceptics?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 27, 2021, 10:05:02 AM
So an open window definitely can be ruled out as evidence of abduction because….?

It's circumstantial evidence, and there are more than one possible reason for an open window.

There's the burglar example above. It could also be evidence of staging too.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 27, 2021, 10:08:26 AM
I knew you wouldn’t be able to explain and I was right.

I disagree. It is circumstantial evidence. On its own testimony that there was an open window does not prove an abduction. That is only one possibility.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 27, 2021, 10:13:49 AM
 @)(++(* - were you there in the police station when she gave her first account then?  You do realise when you saw her giving her account she'd had to repeat her account probably dozens of times already don't you?  Do you accept that her statement re: the open window is evidence of abduction or not?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 27, 2021, 10:14:45 AM
It’s clear to me that G-Unit, Billy, Spam et al have double standards when it comes to accepting what is evidence.  Hearsay evidence if it’s against the McCanns is “important “, “concrete”, etc, but hearsay evidence from the McCanns themselves is not considered evidence at all.  I think that just about sums up the problem we have here.

That isn't true. I'm prepared to examine any evidence that is debated here. I'm happy to look at hearsay, forensic evidence, witness testimony, circumstantial evidence etc etc (and none of these are mutually exclusive either).

I asked for evidence of an abduction. So far we have Kate McCann saying there was an open window. I'm sorry but on its own I'm not going to conclude from that that there was definitely an abduction.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 27, 2021, 10:15:14 AM
It's circumstantial evidence, and there are more than one possible reason for an open window.

There's the burglar example above. It could also be evidence of staging too.
Hallelujah!  It's evidence of an abduction.  Thank YOU!!!  Yes it could be evidence of something else, but when someone says that there is NO EVIDENCE OF ABDUCTION that is patently false agreed?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 27, 2021, 10:16:07 AM
I disagree. It is circumstantial evidence. On its own testimony that there was an open window does not prove an abduction. That is only one possibility.
Why do you disagree?  I said it was evidence, you agree it is evidence.  I didn't specify what sort of evidence nor did I describe it as proof. 
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 27, 2021, 10:17:23 AM
That isn't true. I'm prepared to examine any evidence that is debated here. I'm happy to look at hearsay, forensic evidence, witness testimony, circumstantial evidence etc etc (and none of these are mutually exclusive either).

I asked for evidence of an abduction. So far we have Kate McCann saying there was an open window. I'm sorry but on its own I'm not going to conclude from that that there was definitely an abduction.
Again, you are making a false assumption that I said Kate's evidence proved it was definitely an abduction - stop misrepresenting what I said please.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Davel on July 27, 2021, 10:19:21 AM
I disagree. It is circumstantial evidence. On its own testimony that there was an open window does not prove an abduction. That is only one possibility.

Its evidence but not proof
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 27, 2021, 10:21:09 AM
@)(++(* - were you there in the police station when she gave her first account then?  You do realise when you saw her giving her account she'd had to repeat her account probably dozens of times already don't you?  Do you accept that her statement re: the open window is evidence of abduction or not?

Testimony from a witness that there was a window open in the children's bedroom that had been left closed does not prove there was an abduction. There are a number of inferences that could be drawn from the testimony.

Respectfully, can you please leave out comments such as the one about me not being in the Police station. Let's just look at the evidence and debate it. Thank you.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 27, 2021, 10:23:39 AM
Its evidence but not proof

Correct sir I agree.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 27, 2021, 10:26:20 AM
Why do you disagree?  I said it was evidence, you agree it is evidence.  I didn't specify what sort of evidence nor did I describe it as proof.

I accepted it as evidence. I described it as such. My problem is claiming abduction is the only conclusion that can be drawn. Dave is spot on. It is evidence but not proof. I think we all agree on that.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Lace on July 27, 2021, 10:43:14 AM
Testimony from a witness that there was a window open in the children's bedroom that had been left closed does not prove there was an abduction. There are a number of inferences that could be drawn from the testimony.

Respectfully, can you please leave out comments such as the one about me not being in the Police station. Let's just look at the evidence and debate it. Thank you.

What other are the other inferences that could be drawn from the window being open?    It was left closed,  it was open when Kate checked on the children.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 27, 2021, 10:45:25 AM
Testimony from a witness that there was a window open in the children's bedroom that had been left closed does not prove there was an abduction. There are a number of inferences that could be drawn from the testimony.

Respectfully, can you please leave out comments such as the one about me not being in the Police station. Let's just look at the evidence and debate it. Thank you.
Respectfully, can you stop misrepresenting what I said - I never said Kate's statement proved abduction so why do you keep saying that?  Also, if you're going to cast doubts on Kate's integrity I think I am entitled to point out the logic failure in how you arrived at your beliefs.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Lace on July 27, 2021, 10:46:38 AM
I'm not a trained criminal psychologist but to me the very well rehearsed whoooosh and door slam comes across as storytelling in my own personal opinion. It seems to be embellishment in my opinion. That was my own personal impression. However, that doesn't necessarily mean she is lying she might have practised the storytelling and embellishment to try to make her own honest belief sound more plausible.


Yet Amaral said in his book the nights were windy.    Why make that up?  Why not just say the abductor came in through the Patio doors?   They told the Police the Patio doors were left open.   Why not leave marks on the window outside dirt on the bed covers,  come on if you are going to make out an abduction happened leave more clues.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 27, 2021, 10:46:54 AM
I accepted it as evidence. I described it as such. My problem is claiming abduction is the only conclusion that can be drawn. Dave is spot on. It is evidence but not proof. I think we all agree on that.
Can you please point to any post I ever made in which I claimed it was proof?  What you're doing is classic strawman argumentation, please stop it.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Lace on July 27, 2021, 10:57:31 AM
If I was staging an abduction I certainly wouldn't have left my finger prints on the window.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: jassi on July 27, 2021, 11:05:11 AM
Why not ? She had lived there for a weeks so finding her fingerprints in the apartment would be quite normal.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 27, 2021, 11:07:29 AM
If I was staging an abduction I certainly wouldn't have left my finger prints on the window.
I certainly wouldn't have closed the window that I staged by opening before the police even got there!
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Wonderfulspam on July 27, 2021, 11:20:50 AM
What other are the other inferences that could be drawn from the window being open?    It was left closed,  it was open when Kate checked on the children.

She might have forgotten close it, I mean, they did forgot to lock it, allegedly.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on July 27, 2021, 11:21:32 AM
I certainly wouldn't have closed the window that I staged by opening before the police even got there!

I wouldn't have interfered with the only 'evidence of abduction' either. I would have shown it to my friends and to the police so they could see why I assumed my daughter had been abducted.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on July 27, 2021, 11:35:33 AM
Smith's evidence was corroberated by other family members. They all saw the man carrying the child and were all agreed about his description. If you are referring to Smith's later claim that the man was Gerry McCann, that was his uncorroborated opinion to which he's entitled. As it's uncorroborated, it may be nothing (like the dog alerts) or it may be intelligence (like the dog alerts).
The Smith family visit to Kelly's is not corroborated either by staff or by receipt.  There is no record of anyone witnessing the party making their way home and entering their apartment block and no record of the time at which they did get home.
The police didn't manage to get to one of the very few scenes of action covered by camera which might have been captured on CCTV until after the footage was deleted.

However I'm not sure what relevance this is to more recent events particularly when WE ALREADY KNOW that the three investigating police forces will not be at all interested in what went on in R. da Escola in 2007 as far as slurring the McCanns is concerned, unless it coincides with what their prime suspect and/or his mates were doing.

Isn't it about time you accepted that particular horse has bolted.

Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: sadie on July 27, 2021, 11:54:14 AM
I am not able to judge the cost and weight of a set of curtains from a photograph, but they don't appear particularly cheap and flimsy to me. Therefore I'm not prepared to speculate about how they might behave. I'm also aware that there is disagreement about the weather that evening.

Look again at the curtain photos Gunit.  See how cheaply they fall and how the light penetrates.  Remember Matts statement where he could see light coming through them and the light was a mixture of sodium lighting colour yellow and the blue of the curtains IIRC.   Cheap fabric; they didn't need sturdy fabric, cos they had shutters for excluding light and prying eyes.  In actual fact they were merely a window dressing.  Very thin fabric.
Additionally we all know that nets are very flimsy


Do not try and change the weather Gunit.   That would be absolutely and totally dishonest.

The official weather reports have been posted on this forum several times.  I observed years ago that some have been deleted and I wondered why?

I wonder if there are any actual bona fide weather reports, (without alteration) still standing on here, but I ain't wasting the time searching anymore
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: sadie on July 27, 2021, 12:05:09 PM
She might have forgotten close it, I mean, they did forgot to lock it, allegedly.

Who is *they*?

I ain't looking it up for you, but I distinctly remember it being stated that neither Kate nor Gerry ever attempted to open the window.  They just left it closed all the time, day and night.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on July 27, 2021, 12:05:24 PM
The Smith family visit to Kelly's is not corroborated either by staff or by receipt.  There is no record of anyone witnessing the party making their way home and entering their apartment block and no record of the time at which they did get home.
The police didn't manage to get to one of the very few scenes of action covered by camera which might have been captured on CCTV until after the footage was deleted.

However I'm not sure what relevance this is to more recent events particularly when WE ALREADY KNOW that the three investigating police forces will not be at all interested in what went on in R. da Escola in 2007 as far as slurring the McCanns is concerned, unless it coincides with what their prime suspect and/or his mates were doing.

Isn't it about time you accepted that particular horse has bolted.

As far as I'm concerned there has been one justifiable investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann. Any investigators following after will need to be aware of, and take into account the evidence gathered by that investigation.

I have seen two examples of what happens when investigators don't familiarise themselves with the available evidence. DCI Redwood failed to explain why his replacement for Tannerman seemed to be heading the wrong way, and Prosecutor Wolters seemed to think there was a mobile phone signal tower belonging to the Ocean Club.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on July 27, 2021, 12:08:44 PM
Why not ? She had lived there for a weeks so finding her fingerprints in the apartment would be quite normal.

Then why is it that sceptics make such a song and dance about Kate's fingerprints being on the glass - that is a rhetorical question.

I am far more interested in what is going on in the German investigation into Brueckner who for example left no fingerprints only a single pubic hair at the rape scene only a short distance from the McCann apartment.

Also it would be ON TOPIC.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on July 27, 2021, 12:09:55 PM
Look again at the curtain photos Gunit.  See how cheaply they fall and how the light penetrates.  Remember Matts statement where he could see light coming through them and the light was a mixture of sodium lighting colour yellow and the blue of the curtains IIRC.   Cheap fabric; they didn't need sturdy fabric, cos they had shutters for excluding light and prying eyes.  In actual fact they were merely a window dressing.  Very thin fabric.
Additionally we all know that nets are very flimsy


Do not try and change the weather Gunit.   That would be absolutely and totally dishonest.

The official weather reports have been posted on this forum several times.  I observed years ago that some have been deleted and I wondered why?

I wonder if there are any actual bona fide weather reports, (without alteration) still standing on here, but I ain't wasting the time searching anymore

I have rejected your speculative explanation and repeating it butters no parsnips imo.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Davel on July 27, 2021, 12:14:58 PM
As far as I'm concerned there has been one justifiable investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann. Any investigators following after will need to be aware of, and take into account the evidence gathered by that investigation.

I have seen two examples of what happens when investigators don't familiarise themselves with the available evidence. DCI Redwood failed to explain why his replacement for Tannerman seemed to be heading the wrong way, and Prosecutor Wolters seemed to think there was a mobile phone signal tower belonging to the Ocean Club.

As you are aware the first investigation thought the main evidence against the mccanns was the dog alerts so I doubt the present investigators will take much notice of that.
There was no real evidence against the parents... Confirmed by the srchiving despatch... PD Carmo... SY.. and the Germans.

Your problem imo is thst you THINK there is sufficient evidence to make the parents suspects.. The Portuguese, UK and German police dont agree with you.

Your fixation with your supposed evidence ptevents you looking at Wolters eith an open mind
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on July 27, 2021, 12:19:10 PM
As far as I'm concerned there has been one justifiable investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann. Any investigators following after will need to be aware of, and take into account the evidence gathered by that investigation.

I have seen two examples of what happens when investigators don't familiarise themselves with the available evidence. DCI Redwood failed to explain why his replacement for Tannerman seemed to be heading the wrong way, and Prosecutor Wolters seemed to think there was a mobile phone signal tower belonging to the Ocean Club.

Why do sceptics expect the police to 'explain' evidence and keep the criminal fraternity up to speed with wat is going on in an investigation.
I am quite sure Scotland Yard know a great deal more about Dr Totman and his direction of travel than is in the public domain.

Are you disputing the evidence in the files from 2007 that Brueckner's phone activated a mast in Praia da Luz shortly before Madeleine disappeared.
Technicians and engineers know what they are doing and will keep everyone right and I'm not even going to go there regarding English not being Wolter's first language, although he is extremely fluent.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 27, 2021, 12:20:38 PM
I wouldn't have interfered with the only 'evidence of abduction' either. I would have shown it to my friends and to the police so they could see why I assumed my daughter had been abducted.
Which rather supports the theory that the abduction wasn't staged IMO.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Lace on July 27, 2021, 12:40:35 PM
Why not ? She had lived there for a weeks so finding her fingerprints in the apartment would be quite normal.

Tell Amaral that then as he used the fact that the window had Kates fingerprints on it to spread his staged abduction theory.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Lace on July 27, 2021, 12:41:31 PM
She might have forgotten close it, I mean, they did forgot to lock it, allegedly.

They said they didn't open the window at all.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Wonderfulspam on July 27, 2021, 01:00:50 PM
They said they didn't open the window at all.

And never bothered to check if it was locked?

Well, I suppose, they couldn't be arsed to lock the door either, so it's not surprising.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on July 27, 2021, 01:30:56 PM
Topic please or expect deletions.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: sadie on July 27, 2021, 01:41:14 PM
And never bothered to check if it was locked?

Well, I suppose, they couldn't be arsed to lock the door either, so it's not surprising.

I am pretty sure tht the Mccanns also reported that the shutters were down all the time they were there, day and night.

With their understanding of the safety of shutters why should they bother if the window was locked or not?

The shutters were down.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 27, 2021, 02:23:03 PM
I wouldn't have interfered with the only 'evidence of abduction' either. I would have shown it to my friends and to the police so they could see why I assumed my daughter had been abducted.

That's a very important point and I've never got my head around it. If you believe someone has broken in (or walked in, then climbed out of a window) with your child you wouldn't interfere with what is likely to give up vital forensic information, in my opinion.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 27, 2021, 02:26:33 PM
Can you please point to any post I ever made in which I claimed it was proof?  What you're doing is classic strawman argumentation, please stop it.

You seem to accept it as proof. What other evidence has led you to a theory of abduction?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 27, 2021, 02:32:38 PM
Which rather supports the theory that the abduction wasn't staged IMO.

How so?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on July 27, 2021, 02:33:20 PM
You seem to accept it as proof. What other evidence has led you to a theory of abduction?

It's the only obvious one.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 27, 2021, 02:35:43 PM
It's the only obvious one.

One of the rarest scenarios is the obvious one? No, that isn't enough for me, sorry.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 27, 2021, 02:53:58 PM
You seem to accept it as proof. What other evidence has led you to a theory of abduction?
Do I ?  What leads you to that conclusion.  Show us the evidence!
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on July 27, 2021, 02:54:54 PM
One of the rarest scenarios is the obvious one? No, that isn't enough for me, sorry.

Under the given circumstance, Yes.  But let's not allow the facts to get in the way.

This is a Discussion Forum so any old rubbish will largely do.

Unless it is Libellous, of course.  You might like to keep an eye on that one.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 27, 2021, 02:55:45 PM
One of the rarest scenarios is the obvious one? No, that isn't enough for me, sorry.
You simply don't understand that stranger abduction can be both rare AND the only logical and plausible explanation.  Look at the Susie Lamplugh case for example'  Would you dismiss the possibility that she was abducted because it doesn't happen very often?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 27, 2021, 02:56:22 PM
How so?
I'm sure you can work it out for yourself if you think really hard.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on July 27, 2021, 03:31:05 PM
You simply don't understand that stranger abduction can be both rare AND the only logical and plausible explanation.  Look at the Susie Lamplugh case for example'  Would you dismiss the possibility that she was abducted because it doesn't happen very often?

It only needs to happen once.  But I don't think this was the first case of a child vanishing while in the Algarve nor do I think it was the first time an attempt was made to cover up.

The denials about an intruder entering properties with intent to sexually assault children was denied for years despite the police knowing about it happening.

Which makes it all the more extraordinary that Amaral chose to implicate the McCanns based on not a shred of any concrete evidence at all to support the misconception.

It is difficult to stay on topic on this thread because so much of the investigation is under secrecy of justice.  Only this time round we are not being entertained by leaks. 
The only information is coming from official spokespersons who obviously are not telling us what their strategy or evidence is which is exactly as it should be.

I'm a bit dismayed that in 2021 despite the evidence of our eyes to the contrary there are those who cannot shake off believing the slurs suffered by the McCanns back in 2007.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on July 27, 2021, 03:39:42 PM
You simply don't understand that stranger abduction can be both rare AND the only logical and plausible explanation.  Look at the Susie Lamplugh case for example'  Would you dismiss the possibility that she was abducted because it doesn't happen very often?

The abduction theory is not logical or plausible in my opinion and this case has nothing in common with the Lamplugh case.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on July 27, 2021, 03:45:31 PM
The abduction theory is not logical or plausible in my opinion and this case has nothing in common with the Lamplugh case.

You might like to pay attention to possible Libel as well.

Sometimes "In My Opinion" isn't good enough.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 27, 2021, 03:45:39 PM
Do I ?  What leads you to that conclusion.  Show us the evidence!

I'm basing it on your posts which, to me at least, read as if you do not accept there are any other possibilities.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 27, 2021, 03:47:45 PM
The abduction theory is not logical or plausible in my opinion and this case has nothing in common with the Lamplugh case.
If the abduction theory is neither logical nor plausible then you must believe the two highly respected police forces investigating are complete idiots!  Abduction IS the only logical and plausible explanation, not only in my opinion but in that of David Canter, Operation Grange, the German police and numerous other professional and respected individuals and commentators.  It must be an incredible puzzle to you that this is the case, I wonder how you rationalise it without going down some curly-wurly [ censored word ]y wormhole?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 27, 2021, 03:48:49 PM
I'm basing it on your posts which, to me at least, read as if you do not accept there are any other possibilities.
Just one post in which I have claimed the open window proves abduction, just one, go on, I know you’re frightfully busy but if you make claims like this you need to provide evidence,
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 27, 2021, 03:49:30 PM
You simply don't understand that stranger abduction can be both rare AND the only logical and plausible explanation.  Look at the Susie Lamplugh case for example'  Would you dismiss the possibility that she was abducted because it doesn't happen very often?

Abduction, however rare, is plausible and possible.

It isn't the "obvious" conclusion in the McCann case, in my opinion. Was Mark Harrison really just missing something so "obvious"?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 27, 2021, 03:55:47 PM
Just one post in which I have claimed the open window proves abduction, just one, go on, I know you’re frightfully busy but if you make claims like this you need to provide evidence,

You haven't proved abduction in any of your posts. You have described the open window as evidence of abduction. It's also evidence of a burglar, or it being a hot day and someone opening a window etc etc etc. We agree that there is no proof of an abduction.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on July 27, 2021, 04:02:32 PM
You haven't proved abduction in any of your posts. You have described the open window as evidence of abduction. It's also evidence of a burglar, or it being a hot day and someone opening a window etc etc etc. We agree that there is no proof of an abduction.

And no proof that The McCanns killed their daughter and disposed of her body.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 27, 2021, 04:15:43 PM
And no proof that The McCanns killed their daughter and disposed of her body.

Absolutely correct.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 27, 2021, 04:35:05 PM
You haven't proved abduction in any of your posts. You have described the open window as evidence of abduction. It's also evidence of a burglar, or it being a hot day and someone opening a window etc etc etc. We agree that there is no proof of an abduction.
Right so let’s never hear the “no evidence of an abduction “ mantra again.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Davel on July 27, 2021, 05:20:03 PM
The abduction theory is not logical or plausible in my opinion and this case has nothing in common with the Lamplugh case.
Why not...

What I think is that you are so convinced by what you believe is evidence that you cant accept you could be wrong
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Wonderfulspam on July 27, 2021, 06:08:13 PM
Right so let’s never hear the “no evidence of an abduction “ mantra again.

What abduction?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 27, 2021, 06:11:23 PM
What abduction?
the one that there is evidence of having taken place in Apartment 5a on 3rd May 2007 in PdL.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Wonderfulspam on July 27, 2021, 06:12:21 PM
the one that there is evidence of having taken place in Apartment 5a on 3rd May 2007 in PdL.

Nope, never seen any evidence of that I'm afraid.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 27, 2021, 06:13:06 PM
Nope, never seen any evidence of that I'm afraid.
Take your blinkers off then.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Wonderfulspam on July 27, 2021, 06:15:27 PM


I've just had to close the front room window just in case someone walks past & reports an abduction.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 27, 2021, 06:30:44 PM

I've just had to close the front room window just in case someone walks past & reports an abduction.
Why would they do that?  Has one of your (non-existent) children disappeared?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: barrier on July 27, 2021, 06:41:48 PM
And no proof that The McCanns killed their daughter and disposed of her body.

Nor anyone else , come to that.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Anthro on July 27, 2021, 07:05:02 PM
I am pretty sure tht the Mccanns also reported that the shutters were down all the time they were there, day and night.

With their understanding of the safety of shutters why should they bother if the window was locked or not?

The shutters were down.
I agree, Sadie. Also, Maintenance was called to fix the shutters at the back of the apartment, Tapas side. Hypothetically, nothing prevented them to check/unlock the children’s bedroom shutter. The cleaner could have also opened up the shutters and windows in the apartment, without locking it afterwards.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARIO_MOREIRA.htm
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/5A_CLEANER.htm
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: sadie on July 27, 2021, 07:31:20 PM
I have rejected your speculative explanation and repeating it butters no parsnips imo.

Why won't you accept the obvious from various photos, videos and reports.  Those curtains are very cheap and flimsy.  The nets are flimsy too.

Why are you unable to accept official weather records that state it was a gusty evening.  Several different weather stations in the region have given their readings for that evening and YOU will have read them without doubt.  They have ben posted often enough

Gusts of around 20mph were recorded that evening.

Dunno whether the reports are still there
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 27, 2021, 07:58:44 PM
Right so let’s never hear the “no evidence of an abduction “ mantra again.

Reportedly there was an open window.... and upon that that one piece of hearsay you do not accept any other conclusion other than rare stranger abduction? Mark Harrison saw things somewhat differently as I recall. It appeared to me that he tried to focus the various scenarios that the PJ were hypothesising on.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 27, 2021, 08:13:20 PM
Under the given circumstance, Yes.  But let's not allow the facts to get in the way.

This is a Discussion Forum so any old rubbish will largely do.

Unless it is Libellous, of course.  You might like to keep an eye on that one.

I can't even fathom out where someone could possibly think I was being libellous. This being a discussion forum I believe different opinions are what's needed.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Anthro on July 27, 2021, 08:24:22 PM
Why won't you accept the obvious from various photos, videos and reports.  Those curtains are very cheap and flimsy.  The nets are flimsy too.

Why are you unable to accept official weather records that state it was a gusty evening.  Several different weather stations in the region have given their readings for that evening and YOU will have read them without doubt.  They have ben posted often enough

Gusts of around 20mph were recorded that evening.

Dunno whether the reports are still there
In my opinion, thin curtains is the norm in that sort of climate and resort. Shutters add to cooling down a space. No need for heavy curtains in addition to shutters.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 27, 2021, 09:18:36 PM
Reportedly there was an open window.... and upon that that one piece of hearsay you do not accept any other conclusion other than rare stranger abduction? Mark Harrison saw things somewhat differently as I recall. It appeared to me that he tried to focus the various scenarios that the PJ were hypothesising on.
it is not the sole reason I think Madeleine was abducted but I do think it is evidence (not hearsay evidence, see Davel’s earlier post on the subject).  Did Mark Harrison rule out abduction then?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 27, 2021, 09:19:13 PM
the one that there is evidence of having taken place in Apartment 5a on 3rd May 2007 in PdL.

The one not proven because of a lack of evidence to support the hypothesis. All it seems there was to support the abduction theory is a witness statement that there was an open window. Furthermore those on this forum who appear to most believe the abduction hypothesis are also the posters who tell us the testimony is unreliable because inconsistencies are apparently the result of translation issues.

I don’t know what happened to Madeleine McCann. There is no proof that her parents were involved. For me personally though I am not satisfied that there is anywhere near enough evidence to support rare stranger abduction.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 27, 2021, 09:21:26 PM
it is not the sole reason I think Madeleine was abducted but I do think it is evidence (not hearsay evidence, see Davel’s earlier post on the subject).  Did Mark Harrison rule out abduction then?

I very much doubt he ruled anything out but he appeared keen to apply some focus.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 27, 2021, 09:26:36 PM
it is not the sole reason I think Madeleine was abducted but I do think it is evidence (not hearsay evidence, see Davel’s earlier post on the subject).  Did Mark Harrison rule out abduction then?

Yes sorry that particular piece of evidence wasn’t hearsay. That was a mistake on my part. The story about the open window came from witnesses testimony.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 27, 2021, 09:55:46 PM
The one not proven because of a lack of evidence to support the hypothesis. All it seems there was to support the abduction theory is a witness statement that there was an open window. Furthermore those on this forum who appear to most believe the abduction hypothesis are also the posters who tell us the testimony is unreliable because inconsistencies are apparently the result of translation issues.

I don’t know what happened to Madeleine McCann. There is no proof that her parents were involved. For me personally though I am not satisfied that there is anywhere near enough evidence to support rare stranger abduction.
How many times do you need to tell us the open window is not proof of abduction?  Do you see anyone here saying otherwise?  And as Kate McCann has repeatedly told us that the window was open why do you think translation errors are relevant regarding this evidence?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 27, 2021, 09:56:26 PM
I very much doubt he ruled anything out but he appeared keen to apply some focus.
on what specifically?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 27, 2021, 10:10:35 PM
on what specifically?

The investigation.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Davel on July 27, 2021, 10:10:52 PM
Reportedly there was an open window.... and upon that that one piece of hearsay you do not accept any other conclusion other than rare stranger abduction? Mark Harrison saw things somewhat differently as I recall. It appeared to me that he tried to focus the various scenarios that the PJ were hypothesising on.

It is on record that according to the PJ the main evidence against the McCanns was the dog alerts... So I dont see Harrison supporting such ignorance
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 27, 2021, 10:13:34 PM
It is on record that according to the PJ the main evidence against the McCanns was the dog alerts... So I dont see Harrison supporting such ignorance

I’m talking about the time before the dog alerts led to the collection of forensic evidence.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 27, 2021, 10:21:53 PM
The investigation.
Obviously, but on which theory?  You keep mentioning him as if he was sceptical of the abduction theory - was he? 
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 27, 2021, 10:42:29 PM
Obviously, but on which theory?  You keep mentioning him as if he was sceptical of the abduction theory - was he?

I’ve no idea what his personal thoughts were. I’m talking about his professional input into the investigation.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on July 27, 2021, 11:25:29 PM
Back to the current investigation with this link taken from a thought provoking discussion on Websleuths.

What events I wonder left Brueckner destitute and on the streets in Italy with his only possessions being a bible and a card with his lawyer's address.


'When we arrested him we could see the surprise on his face': Italian police set a trap for Madeleine McCann suspect Christian Brueckner 'by making a fake appointment for a new passport'
 Madeleine McCann suspect Christian Brueckner was arrested with a trap in Italy
The Italian police made a fake appointment with him for  a new passport in 2018
Police said he looked homeless and was holding a bible on the day of the arrest

By JORDAN KING FOR MAILONLINE

PUBLISHED: 02:29, 7 June 2020

Italian police set up a trap for Madeleine McCann suspect Christian Brueckner by making a fake appointment for a new passport at the German consulate in Milan, it has emerged today.

The police did not know he was a suspect in the McCann case but knew he was a fugitive when he came up for a drug conviction. 

The German had just arrived from Switzerland and said he needed new ID documents because they had been stolen from him on the train.

When the police found the drug conviction they arranged an international arrest warrant and set up the fake appointment.

Col Michele Miulli, commander of the Carabinieri investigative unit that planned his arrest, told the Mirror they had 'no idea' about Brueckner's link to the McCann case.

Lieutenant Andrea Papa, part of the city's elite murder squad, said that Brueckner 'looked homeless' on the day he was arrested.

'He was in jeans, trainers and a military jacket. He had no phone or money, just a Bible and a business card with his lawyer's number,' said  Lieutenant Andrea Papa.

The Lieutenant said they even felt sorry for the man and offered him some water. 

Brueckner was extradited to Germany where he was also found guilty last year for raping a 72-year-old American woman in Portugal in 2005 and given seven years.
_______________________________________________________________

Now that Brueckner is being investigated in the McCann case his activities in Italy before his arrest are being looked at.

However, it is difficult to do this because there is no record of when he entered Italy or what he did there.  
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8395677/Italian-police-set-trap-Madeleine-McCann-suspect-Christian-Brueckner.html
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: John on July 28, 2021, 04:38:16 PM
Why won't you accept the obvious from various photos, videos and reports.  Those curtains are very cheap and flimsy.  The nets are flimsy too.

Why are you unable to accept official weather records that state it was a gusty evening.  Several different weather stations in the region have given their readings for that evening and YOU will have read them without doubt.  They have ben posted often enough

Gusts of around 20mph were recorded that evening.

Dunno whether the reports are still there

Yes...they're all there.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Lace on July 28, 2021, 07:29:39 PM
The abduction theory is not logical or plausible in my opinion and this case has nothing in common with the Lamplugh case.


 Two Police forces are investigating abduction,  but  you know better.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: barrier on July 28, 2021, 07:38:20 PM

 Two Police forces are investigating abduction,  but  you know better.


Therein possibly lies why its still not been solved.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Lace on July 28, 2021, 07:40:12 PM
 (&^&

Therein possibly lies why its still not been solved.


 (&^&
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on July 28, 2021, 09:53:26 PM

 Two Police forces are investigating abduction,  but  you know better.

I don't know why Operation Grange choose to investigate only one possible crime and neither do you. Could they be wrong? In my opinion they could because there is no definitive evidence that an abduction took place imo. Hopefully they didn't base their thesis on the fact that Madeleine wasn't old enough to run away and start a new life. That would be a very flimsy reason on which to base an assumption that she was abducted.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Admin on July 28, 2021, 10:00:37 PM
I don't know why Operation Grange choose to investigate only one possible crime and neither do you. Could they be wrong? In my opinion they could because there is no definitive evidence that an abduction took place imo. Hopefully they didn't base their thesis on the fact that Madeleine wasn't old enough to run away and start a new life. That would be a very flimsy reason on which to base an assumption that she was abducted.

Bottom line is that the Met failed to progress any criminal proceedings in the Madeleine McCann case despite all their hoohah and bravo.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 28, 2021, 10:04:27 PM
I don't know why Operation Grange choose to investigate only one possible crime and neither do you. Could they be wrong? In my opinion they could because there is no definitive evidence that an abduction took place imo. Hopefully they didn't base their thesis on the fact that Madeleine wasn't old enough to run away and start a new life. That would be a very flimsy reason on which to base an assumption that she was abducted.
Please don’t be silly, thank you.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on July 29, 2021, 09:15:48 AM
Bottom line is that the Met failed to progress any criminal proceedings in the Madeleine McCann case despite all their hoohah and bravo.

Given the lack of evidence, the time which had elapsed since the crime was committed and the difficulties of investigating in another country it's hardly surprising, is it? What is surprising is that people still have faith in such a doomed (imo) project.

Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Davel on July 29, 2021, 10:51:47 AM
Given the lack of evidence, the time which had elapsed since the crime was committed and the difficulties of investigating in another country it's hardly surprising, is it? What is surprising is that people still have faith in such a doomed (imo) project.

You are mistaken... I dont expect SY to be abble to solve the case due to the poor first investigation . Plus a stranger abduction is a notoriously difficult case to solve
I think it was clear that the best chance the case had got of being solved was if someone knew something and talked and gave the investigation some information.

I think there is a high probability that the Germans will sove the case based on what Wolters has said.

Whats odd to me is how some have faith in amaral who clearly didnt understand the evidence but no faith in Wolters
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on July 29, 2021, 10:57:22 AM
You are mistaken... I dont expect SY to be abble to solve the case due to the poor first investigation . Plus a stranger abduction is a notoriously difficult case to solve
I think it was clear that the best chance the case had got of being solved was if someone knew something and talked and gave the investigation some information.

I think there is a high probability that the Germans will sove the case based on what Wolters has said.

Whats odd to me is how some have faith in amaral who clearly didnt understand the evidence but no faith in Wolters

Par for the course.  Some persons desperately want The McCanns to be culpable.  No other explanation will do for them.
Don't ask me why.  I have no idea, other than a sickness of mind.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on July 29, 2021, 11:51:45 AM
You are mistaken... I dont expect SY to be abble to solve the case due to the poor first investigation . Plus a stranger abduction is a notoriously difficult case to solve
I think it was clear that the best chance the case had got of being solved was if someone knew something and talked and gave the investigation some information.

I think there is a high probability that the Germans will sove the case based on what Wolters has said.

Whats odd to me is how some have faith in amaral who clearly didnt understand the evidence but no faith in Wolters

SY made no promises, to be fair, but the only evidence they had was that collected by the first investigation plus a lot of nonsense from private investigators with no track record of success in such cases.

The crux of the matter is SY's conviction that a stranger abduction was the crime to investigate, given the dearth of evidence available.

Anyone who had something to offer could have contacted the police at any time after 3rd May 2007. It's odd that this only happened ten years later and there seemed to be no reason why it was withheld for so long.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on July 29, 2021, 12:14:45 PM
SY made no promises, to be fair, but the only evidence they had was that collected by the first investigation plus a lot of nonsense from private investigators with no track record of success in such cases.

The crux of the matter is SY's conviction that a stranger abduction was the crime to investigate, given the dearth of evidence available.

Anyone who had something to offer could have contacted the police at any time after 3rd May 2007. It's odd that this only happened ten years later and there seemed to be no reason why it was withheld for so long.

People with no information and no suspicion could hardly have been expected to have anything to offer.

I believe it was Brueckner's extraordinary reaction to the tenth anniversary tv crime programme featuring Kate and Gerry making an appeal for news of Madeleine which alerted his companions.

His behaviour was such that they became concerned to the extent that they brought their suspicions to the police who investigated and who took it further.

I suggest to the trained professional eye of the German police the proximity between the rape committed in Praia da Luz in 2005 ~ for which Brueckner was convicted in Germany 2019 ~ and the McCann apartment must have set alarm bells ringing.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Davel on July 29, 2021, 12:16:22 PM
SY made no promises, to be fair, but the only evidence they had was that collected by the first investigation plus a lot of nonsense from private investigators with no track record of success in such cases.

The crux of the matter is SY's conviction that a stranger abduction was the crime to investigate, given the dearth of evidence available.

Anyone who had something to offer could have contacted the police at any time after 3rd May 2007. It's odd that this only happened ten years later and there seemed to be no reason why it was withheld for so long.

It happened due to a television appeal. Im sure Wolters has more than. Just that.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on July 29, 2021, 12:35:10 PM
People with no information and no suspicion could hardly have been expected to have anything to offer.

I believe it was Brueckner's extraordinary reaction to the tenth anniversary tv crime programme featuring Kate and Gerry making an appeal for news of Madeleine which alerted his companions.

His behaviour was such that they became concerned to the extent that they brought their suspicions to the police who investigated and who took it further.

I suggest to the trained professional eye of the German police the proximity between the rape committed in Praia da Luz in 2005 ~ for which Brueckner was convicted in Germany 2019 ~ and the McCann apartment must have set alarm bells ringing.

Unless, of course, someone knew in 2008;

Helge Busching says he is the man who gave Brueckner's name to British police in 2017, around the 10th anniversary of Madeleine's disappearance.

Busching, 48, claims that Brueckner told him at a Spanish kite festival in 2008 that he was involved in Madeleine's abduction from Praia da Luz a year earlier.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8720485/Witness-helped-launch-Madeleine-McCann-investigation-says-Christian-Brueckner-guilty.html
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on July 29, 2021, 03:03:14 PM
Unless, of course, someone knew in 2008;

Helge Busching says he is the man who gave Brueckner's name to British police in 2017, around the 10th anniversary of Madeleine's disappearance.

Busching, 48, claims that Brueckner told him at a Spanish kite festival in 2008 that he was involved in Madeleine's abduction from Praia da Luz a year earlier.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8720485/Witness-helped-launch-Madeleine-McCann-investigation-says-Christian-Brueckner-guilty.html

The criminal fraternity are not really well known for volunteering information to the police are they?

When Busching finally 'came clean' in 2017 the information he gave to Scotland Yard would have been used to justify the continued Home Office funding for Madeleine's case.

You knew didn't you that there are a lot of individuals who really resent their tax pennies going to keep Madeleine's investigation continuing.  Who if they had had their way - there never would have been such an investigation in the first instance.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Wonderfulspam on July 29, 2021, 03:17:26 PM
The criminal fraternity are not really well known for volunteering information to the police are they?

When Busching finally 'came clean' in 2017 the information he gave to Scotland Yard would have been used to justify the continued Home Office funding for Madeleine's case.

You knew didn't you that there are a lot of individuals who really resent their tax pennies going to keep Madeleine's investigation continuing.  Who if they had had their way - there never would have been such an investigation in the first instance.

Yes, please explain why I should have to pay for the McCanns child when they've never paid a penny for mine?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 29, 2021, 04:37:22 PM
Yes, please explain why I should have to pay for the McCanns child when they've never paid a penny for mine?
Prove you've got a kid and I'll reimburse you the 20p it's cost you.  Can't say fairer than that!
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Wonderfulspam on July 29, 2021, 04:41:22 PM
Prove you've got a kid and I'll reimburse you the 20p it's cost you.  Can't say fairer than that!

No, I want my 17.5 pence reimbursed directly from the McCanns bank account.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 29, 2021, 05:19:54 PM
No, I want my 17.5 pence reimbursed directly from the McCanns bank account.
PM me your details including name on the account and I’ll make sure this is actioned for you.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Wonderfulspam on July 29, 2021, 05:30:54 PM
PM me your details including name on the account and I’ll make sure this is actioned for you.

How?

Do you know the McCanns personally?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on July 29, 2021, 05:31:17 PM
PM me your details including name on the account and I’ll make sure this is actioned for you.

Can I help?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 29, 2021, 05:49:17 PM
How?

Do you know the McCanns personally?
I’m well connected, so don’t worry about that bit.  Make sure to include your full name, not just initials, ta.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on July 29, 2021, 05:54:51 PM
I’m well connected, so don’t worry about that bit.  Make sure to include your full name, not just initials, ta.

Don't forget date of birth.  Spammy could be a minor something or other.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: barrier on July 29, 2021, 06:14:34 PM
It happened due to a television appeal. Im sure Wolters has more than. Just that.

He has no body, you know as well as I do, no body conviction's are as rare as hen's teeth , in Germany.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: jassi on July 29, 2021, 06:22:27 PM
How?

Do you know the McCanns personally?

I'm sure she'll know someone who does. 8(0(*
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Davel on July 29, 2021, 06:24:50 PM
He has no body, you know as well as I do, no body conviction's are as rare as hen's teeth , in Germany.

Ive got a feeling hes hoping to find one
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Wonderfulspam on July 29, 2021, 06:27:31 PM
Ive got a feeling hes hoping to find one

He hopes Maddie is dead?

That's disgusting.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: barrier on July 29, 2021, 06:33:58 PM
Ive got a feeling hes hoping to find one


He'll get no where without one imo.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: jassi on July 29, 2021, 06:35:28 PM
He has no body, you know as well as I do, no body conviction's are as rare as hen's teeth , in Germany.

I wonder how the McCanns would view a murder conviction without a body ?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on July 29, 2021, 06:40:09 PM

Does anyone care all that much, so long as he stays locked up for a very long time?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: barrier on July 29, 2021, 06:40:58 PM
I wonder how the McCanns would view a murder conviction without a body ?


There won't be one, unless some one confesses .
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: jassi on July 29, 2021, 06:43:33 PM
Unless he's convicted of something new, he'll be released in a few years.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: jassi on July 29, 2021, 06:45:36 PM

There won't be one, unless some one confesses .

I can't see that happening.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Wonderfulspam on July 29, 2021, 06:52:57 PM
Does anyone care all that much, so long as he stays locked up for a very long time?

I don't understand this sentiment.

Brueckner hasn't raped me so I see no good reason to want him locked up.

Live & let live I say.

Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 29, 2021, 06:53:45 PM
He hopes Maddie is dead?

That's disgusting.
Why?  You hope she is too, does that mean you’re disgusting?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: barrier on July 29, 2021, 06:56:39 PM
I can't see that happening.


Well its alleged he did and Wolters is sure its him .
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Wonderfulspam on July 29, 2021, 07:02:58 PM
Why?  You hope she is too, does that mean you’re disgusting?

Only because that's what Eleanor wanted to hear.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 29, 2021, 07:04:14 PM
I don't understand this sentiment.

Brueckner hasn't raped me so I see no good reason to want him locked up.

Live & let live I say.
So when he’s released you’d be quite happy for him to live next door to your mother or your sister or your little nieces, or any other female thst you care about I expect.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 29, 2021, 07:05:18 PM
Only because that's what Eleanor wanted to hear.
no, I think you meant it.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Wonderfulspam on July 29, 2021, 07:05:57 PM
So when he’s released you’d be quite happy for him to live next door to your mother or your sister or your little nieces, or any other female thst you care about I expect.

There'd be nothing I could do to prevent it so it's not worth worrying about.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 29, 2021, 07:08:07 PM
There'd be nothing I could do to prevent it so it's not worth worrying about.
Of course there could.  You could invite him to come and live with you instead.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Anthro on August 10, 2021, 11:18:04 AM
According to a private group on Facebook, ‘Casa Liliana’ has been demolished. (credit: GS)
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Wonderfulspam on August 10, 2021, 11:22:29 AM

Now would be a good time for Stephen Birch to return.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: jassi on August 10, 2021, 11:27:59 AM
According to a private group on Facebook, ‘Casa Liliana’ has been demolished. (credit: GS)

Could  you explain the significance of this please >
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: misty on August 10, 2021, 11:32:14 AM
According to a private group on Facebook, ‘Casa Liliana’ has been demolished. (credit: GS)

How strange, especially the timing. Is there any further information as to who arranged this demolition?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Anthro on August 10, 2021, 12:18:41 PM
Could  you explain the significance of this please >
🤦🏻‍♀️
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: jassi on August 10, 2021, 12:22:03 PM
🤦🏻‍♀️

I'll take that as a no, shall I ?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Wonderfulspam on August 10, 2021, 12:25:00 PM
Could  you explain the significance of this please >

The house belonged to Robert Murat & he probably worked with Brueckner, since they both lived in PDL, they were keeping abducted children in the basement IMO, time to destroy the evidence before Wolters gets there.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: jassi on August 10, 2021, 12:27:38 PM
The house belonged to Robert Murat & he probably worked with Brueckner, since they both lived in PDL, they were keeping abducted children in the basement IMO, time to destroy the evidence before Wolters gets there.


Right. Gotcha.

So owner decides to re-develop property in tourist hot spot.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on August 10, 2021, 01:34:18 PM
The house belonged to Robert Murat & he probably worked with Brueckner, since they both lived in PDL, they were keeping abducted children in the basement IMO, time to destroy the evidence before Wolters gets there.
Well he was never cleared was he?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on August 10, 2021, 02:07:57 PM
Well he was never cleared was he?

Who? Murat or CB?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Anthro on August 10, 2021, 08:14:57 PM
I'll take that as a no, shall I ?
Wrong. Best you familiarise yourself with emoticons.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on August 10, 2021, 08:22:13 PM
Who? Murat or CB?
I was referring to Murat, but both obviously.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: jassi on August 10, 2021, 09:02:47 PM
Wrong. Best you familiarise yourself with emoticons.

Your reply appeared  on my screen as 3 little squares. No idea what that is supposed to signify.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on August 11, 2021, 02:50:35 AM
Who? Murat or CB?

I've never understood the role of Murat, but wasn't he officially "cleared" in the same way Kate and Gerry were? Didn't he also win a court battle with the T7 which concluded there was no evidence to link him to Madeleine's demise?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on August 11, 2021, 07:14:36 AM
I've never understood the role of Murat, but wasn't he officially "cleared" in the same way Kate and Gerry were? Didn't he also win a court battle with the T7 which concluded there was no evidence to link him to Madeleine's demise?
Oh dear Billy, you’ve broken a cardinal sceptic rule.  You are never allowed to say that the McCanns were cleared, so if they weren’t cleared then obviously neither was Murat.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on August 11, 2021, 07:35:34 AM
Oh dear Billy, you’ve broken a cardinal sceptic rule.  You are never allowed to say that the McCanns were cleared, so if they weren’t cleared then obviously neither was Murat.

The double standards and hypocrisy leave me bemused.  Nor am I very impressed with the abuse of what facts there are.  Most of the Sceptic Comments don't even make sense anyway. 
The use of The English Language is also an abuse of semantics.  But my goodness me, I haven't half learned a lot.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on August 11, 2021, 08:12:36 AM
The double standards and hypocrisy leave me bemused.  Nor am I very impressed with the abuse of what facts there are.  Most of the Sceptic Comments don't even make sense anyway. 
The use of The English Language is also an abuse of semantics.  But my goodness me, I haven't half learned a lot.

I particularly admired ~ "Didn't he also win a court battle with the T7 ..." A prime example of a lie and the truth just depending on the syntax.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on August 11, 2021, 08:32:23 AM
I particularly admired ~ "Didn't he also win a court battle with the T7 ..." A prime example of a lie and the truth just depending on the syntax.
Yes I had to read that a few times to try and make sense of it, still not sure what Whizzy was getting at.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on August 11, 2021, 08:33:47 AM
I particularly admired ~ "Didn't he also win a court battle with the T7 ..." A prime example of a lie and the truth just depending on the syntax.

And not even very clever.  But you put it better than I did
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on August 11, 2021, 08:54:17 AM
Oh dear Billy, you’ve broken a cardinal sceptic rule.  You are never allowed to say that the McCanns were cleared, so if they weren’t cleared then obviously neither was Murat.

Cleared and "cleared" have different meanings.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: jassi on August 11, 2021, 08:58:08 AM
I've never understood the role of Murat, but wasn't he officially "cleared" in the same way Kate and Gerry were? Didn't he also win a court battle with the T7 which concluded there was no evidence to link him to Madeleine's demise?

He certainly won damages from someone but I can't remember who it was.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on August 11, 2021, 09:02:21 AM
Cleared and "cleared" have different meanings.
Whichever definition you choose it applies both to Murat and to the McCanns.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on August 11, 2021, 09:05:18 AM
He certainly won damages from someone but I can't remember who it was.
Here’s a clue - it wasn’t the Tapas 7.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on August 11, 2021, 09:11:49 AM
Cleared and "cleared" have different meanings.

Really?  Good heavens.  I never knew that.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on August 11, 2021, 09:13:15 AM
Really?  Good heavens.  I never knew that.
Allow me to explain:  scepics believe that Murat was cleared and the McCanns were “cleared” (ie not cleared), your usual sceptic double standards.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on August 11, 2021, 09:18:34 AM
I've never understood the role of Murat, but wasn't he officially "cleared" in the same way Kate and Gerry were? Didn't he also win a court battle with the T7 which concluded there was no evidence to link him to Madeleine's demise?

There was no court battle with the T7, but three of them returned to Portugal to confront him at the police station on 11th July;



RECORD OF CONFRONTATION

---- On 11 July, at 10:00, in the premises of the Department of Criminal Investigation of the Portimao Judicial Police, before me, Paulo Ferreira, Inspector, and Dr. Guilhermino Encarnacao, Deputy National Director of Judicial Police, appeared the defendant ROBERT JAMES QUERIOL EVELEIGH MURAT, already identified in the file, in order to proceed with his interrogation. Following on [prior] interrogatory work and contradictions having been seen between that which the defendant said and that of the witnesses, RACHEL MARIAMMA JEAN MAMPILLY, RUSSEL JAMES O'BRIEN, and FIONA ELAINE PAYNE, all also duly identified in the file, given that in the depositions of these people there exist clear contradictions with the answers of the defendant, this present work proceeded.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ROBERT-MURAT.htm

He later sued UK newspapers for libelling him and won significant damages.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Davel on August 11, 2021, 10:00:56 AM
There was no court battle with the T7, but three of them returned to Portugal to confront him at the police station on 11th July;



RECORD OF CONFRONTATION

---- On 11 July, at 10:00, in the premises of the Department of Criminal Investigation of the Portimao Judicial Police, before me, Paulo Ferreira, Inspector, and Dr. Guilhermino Encarnacao, Deputy National Director of Judicial Police, appeared the defendant ROBERT JAMES QUERIOL EVELEIGH MURAT, already identified in the file, in order to proceed with his interrogation. Following on [prior] interrogatory work and contradictions having been seen between that which the defendant said and that of the witnesses, RACHEL MARIAMMA JEAN MAMPILLY, RUSSEL JAMES O'BRIEN, and FIONA ELAINE PAYNE, all also duly identified in the file, given that in the depositions of these people there exist clear contradictions with the answers of the defendant, this present work proceeded.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ROBERT-MURAT.htm

He later sued UK newspapers for libelling him and won significant damages.

the reason there is a problem with agreeing if someone has been cleared is because there is no precise definition of cleared......what do possters think it means.

Was OJ cleared in his criminal trial..not guilty
Was Barry George cleared

does cleared mean innocent to some.....that is the problem

Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on August 11, 2021, 10:10:43 AM
Allow me to explain:  scepics believe that Murat was cleared and the McCanns were “cleared” (ie not cleared), your usual sceptic double standards.

Oh, I see.  Could you possibly give me a Cite for your peculiar thinking?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on August 11, 2021, 10:21:19 AM
the reason there is a problem with agreeing if someone has been cleared is because there is no precise definition of cleared......what do possters think it means.

Was OJ cleared in his criminal trial..not guilty
Was Barry George cleared

does cleared mean innocent to some.....that is the problem

I don't have a problem with this.  If no one has been charged or convicted then there isn't a problem.

Any updates on this philosophy?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on August 11, 2021, 11:01:36 AM
There is a concerted effort by a few diehard sceptics to dumb down the forum.  Just check back to Anthro's post.

The Murat villa and its occupants played a prominent role in Madeleine's case so one would have expected that the information that it had been razed to the ground would have been of some interest.

But it appears that like everything which isn't focused on slurring the McCanns it is has been found more interesting to deflect from the information.

Times have moved on from short term memory regarding the Venturi effect which explains ~

Slamming of doors by a draft
The slamming of doors due to a draft, is also due to the Venturi effect.
The door gap is a constricted cross-section through which the air flows very quickly.
The air pressure in the gap between the door and the frame drops.
Around the door leaf, the air usually flows at a much lower speed.
The higher pressure on the door leaf compared to the air pressure in the gap, therefore slams the door with great force, even if the air stream flows with the opening direction of the door!

https://www.tec-science.com/mechanics/gases-and-liquids/examples-of-applications-of-the-bernoulli-effect/#Slamming_of_doors_by_a_draft

  ~ and we are now well and truly in the era of Prime suspect, Brueckner who I'm sure had mastered the art of raising shutters either from the outside using the control mechanism or from the inside using the control mechanism, he might have been able to use a key or might even have developed motor skills to enable him to slide an unlocked door.  Who knows.

Anyway - I think that even if the demolition of Casa Liliana is an irrelevance - it is an interesting irrelevance none the less.  Thanks for the information, Anthro; it has the benefit of being current.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on August 11, 2021, 12:58:14 PM
There is a concerted effort by a few diehard sceptics to dumb down the forum.  Just check back to Anthro's post.

The Murat villa and its occupants played a prominent role in Madeleine's case so one would have expected that the information that it had been razed to the ground would have been of some interest.

But it appears that like everything which isn't focused on slurring the McCanns it is has been found more interesting to deflect from the information.

Times have moved on from short term memory regarding the Venturi effect which explains ~

Slamming of doors by a draft
The slamming of doors due to a draft, is also due to the Venturi effect.
The door gap is a constricted cross-section through which the air flows very quickly.
The air pressure in the gap between the door and the frame drops.
Around the door leaf, the air usually flows at a much lower speed.
The higher pressure on the door leaf compared to the air pressure in the gap, therefore slams the door with great force, even if the air stream flows with the opening direction of the door!

https://www.tec-science.com/mechanics/gases-and-liquids/examples-of-applications-of-the-bernoulli-effect/#Slamming_of_doors_by_a_draft

  ~ and we are now well and truly in the era of Prime suspect, Brueckner who I'm sure had mastered the art of raising shutters either from the outside using the control mechanism or from the inside using the control mechanism, he might have been able to use a key or might even have developed motor skills to enable him to slide an unlocked door.  Who knows.

Anyway - I think that even if the demolition of Casa Liliana is an irrelevance - it is an interesting irrelevance none the less.  Thanks for the information, Anthro; it has the benefit of being current.

I have no idea why this villa has been demolished, who owns it, and what will be put in it's place. The last I heard of it was in 2015;

Jenny Murat...has put Casa Liliana up for sale. “It is very sad but the place has become a tourist attraction for all the wrong reasons,” she said. “I get people banging on my gate and someone broke in once. I don’t feel safe"...She will live with her daughter, Sammy, in Devon
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/574547/Maddie-libel-detective-ruined-Retirement-retreat-seized-cover-McCann-payout
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: jassi on August 11, 2021, 01:02:10 PM
I have no idea why this villa has been demolished, who owns it, and what will be put in it's place. The last I heard of it was in 2015;

Jenny Murat...has put Casa Liliana up for sale. “It is very sad but the place has become a tourist attraction for all the wrong reasons,” she said. “I get people banging on my gate and someone broke in once. I don’t feel safe"...She will live with her daughter, Sammy, in Devon
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/574547/Maddie-libel-detective-ruined-Retirement-retreat-seized-cover-McCann-payout

Ah, well you have it - mountain out of a molehill.

I'm sure there'll be a new 'tasteful'  development in time   8(0(*
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on August 11, 2021, 01:07:55 PM
I have no idea why this villa has been demolished, who owns it, and what will be put in it's place. The last I heard of it was in 2015;

Jenny Murat...has put Casa Liliana up for sale. “It is very sad but the place has become a tourist attraction for all the wrong reasons,” she said. “I get people banging on my gate and someone broke in once. I don’t feel safe"...She will live with her daughter, Sammy, in Devon
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/574547/Maddie-libel-detective-ruined-Retirement-retreat-seized-cover-McCann-payout
Ah, that's one less landmark on the Ghouls Tour, what a shame.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on August 11, 2021, 01:22:21 PM
I have no idea why this villa has been demolished, who owns it, and what will be put in it's place. The last I heard of it was in 2015;

Jenny Murat...has put Casa Liliana up for sale. “It is very sad but the place has become a tourist attraction for all the wrong reasons,” she said. “I get people banging on my gate and someone broke in once. I don’t feel safe"...She will live with her daughter, Sammy, in Devon
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/574547/Maddie-libel-detective-ruined-Retirement-retreat-seized-cover-McCann-payout

Yes ... I remember the "break in" and I remember Mrs Murat's decision to sell.  But it doesn't stop me from being intrigued by news of the demolition.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on August 11, 2021, 01:30:40 PM
Ah, well you have it - mountain out of a molehill.

I'm sure there'll be a new 'tasteful'  development in time   8(0(*

 Probably a block of flats.  And why not?  Robert Murat will never live there again.  Or even his mother.

I personally would never have gone to Praia da Luz because it is frightfully down market.

And Yes, I do know what I am talking about.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: jassi on August 11, 2021, 01:37:36 PM
Probably a block of flats.  And why not?  Robert Murat will never live there again.  Or even his mother.

I personally would never have gone to Praia da Luz because it is frightfully down market.

And Yes, I do know what I am talking about.

That was my impression as well, which why I was surprised by the sort of people it attracted  - ie the younger professional types
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on August 11, 2021, 02:00:37 PM
That was my impression as well, which why I was surprised by the sort of people it attracted  - ie the younger professional types

Probably short of any serious money.  Praia da Luz was pretty dreadful.  Those appartments  were awful.

But you probably wouldn't want to know of what I saw of Portugal.  Or maybe you might.  I was actually there during both Revolutions.  But no one is really interested in that.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: jassi on August 11, 2021, 02:12:48 PM
I know little of Portugal beyond it being England's oldest ally and being the jumping-off point for Wellington's campaigns against the French
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on August 11, 2021, 02:29:19 PM
I know little of Portugal beyond it being England's oldest ally and being the jumping-off point for Wellington's campaigns against the French

I might have to look into that.  But I am personally more aware of Salazar and what he did to future generations.

Unfortunately Salazar left a mess of potage.  But then most Dictators do.  It takes a while to get over this.  And Portugal hasn't quite managed it yet.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on August 11, 2021, 06:44:18 PM
Probably a block of flats.  And why not?  Robert Murat will never live there again.  Or even his mother.

I personally would never have gone to Praia da Luz because it is frightfully down market.

And Yes, I do know what I am talking about.

A down market location is one which attracts lower income consumers. I think Praia da Luz was a bit better than that; it seems to have attracted quite a few middle income people; doctors, lawyers, journalists and so on.

Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on August 11, 2021, 06:55:25 PM
A down market location is one which attracts lower income consumers. I think Praia da Luz was a bit better than that; it seems to have attracted quite a few middle income people; doctors, lawyers, journalists and so on.
not to mention all the paedos, drug dealers and thieves.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on August 11, 2021, 07:00:27 PM
A down market location is one which attracts lower income consumers. I think Praia da Luz was a bit better than that; it seems to have attracted quite a few middle income people; doctors, lawyers, journalists and so on.

Try Val de Lobo.  It's only down the road a bit.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on August 11, 2021, 07:04:53 PM
not to mention all the paedos, drug dealers and thieves.

Whoops.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Wonderfulspam on August 11, 2021, 07:09:03 PM

Really looking forward to my next visit.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on August 11, 2021, 07:31:26 PM
not to mention all the paedos, drug dealers and thieves.

Find me a place where there are none of the above.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on August 11, 2021, 07:45:37 PM
Try Val de Lobo.  It's only down the road a bit.

Is that a village?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on August 11, 2021, 08:30:48 PM
Find me a place where there are none of the above.
I’m sure everywhere has a least one of each, PdL seemed to have more than its fair share of  them for such a small town.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on August 11, 2021, 09:00:37 PM
I’m sure everywhere has a least one of each, PdL seemed to have more than its fair share of  them for such a small town.

According to rumour, yes.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on August 11, 2021, 09:14:07 PM
I’m sure everywhere has a least one of each, PdL seemed to have more than its fair share of  them for such a small town.

It certainly is weird to think that in the "woke and wandered" theory nobody finds it odd that Madeleine should walk straight into a paedophile who grabbed her.
Were they really as prevalent as that?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on August 11, 2021, 09:23:09 PM
It certainly is weird to think that in the "woke and wandered" theory nobody finds it odd that Madeleine should walk straight into a paedophile who grabbed her.
Were they really as prevalent as that?

Is it more odd than a targetted abduction? Perhaps it was Sadie's getaway driver? He must have been well pleased - no more need for the planned abduction.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: misty on August 12, 2021, 02:29:00 AM
According to a private group on Facebook, ‘Casa Liliana’ has been demolished. (credit: GS)

Picture 3 shows a 2018 V/W Caravelle with a UK licence plate parked outside the property.

ETA Are you able to find out if the 3 photographs were all taken within a few days of each other?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Myster on August 12, 2021, 06:59:16 AM
^^^
I would have thought so. The message on the gate reads roughly - "We apologize for anything caused during our work" ... and the logo is of construction company, JA Duarte & Filho - http://en.jaduartefilho.com/ (http://en.jaduartefilho.com/)
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Davel on August 12, 2021, 07:46:31 AM
Is it more odd than a targetted abduction? Perhaps it was Sadie's getaway driver? He must have been well pleased - no more need for the planned abduction.
Whether an abduction was targetted depends on othe supporting facts.
A paedophile in the area who has expressed a desire to capture something small

Contacts at the OC who have inside knowledge of a child being left alone

The report that CB is claimed to have said he had a terrible job to do tomorrow

I dont know if it was targeted... But I see it as a credible possibility
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on August 12, 2021, 08:04:55 AM
Whether an abduction was targetted depends on othe supporting facts.
A paedophile in the area who has expressed a desire to capture something small

Contacts at the OC who have inside knowledge of a child being left alone

The report that CB is claimed to have said he had a terrible job to do tomorrow

I dont know if it was targeted... But I see it as a credible possibility

Was that desire expressed before or after 3rd May 2007?

Who witin the OC was in contact with CB and how do you know they had knowledge of a child being left alone?

A terrible job could be anything.

Those are not supporting facts, they are speculations imo.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Davel on August 12, 2021, 08:07:04 AM
Was that desire expressed before or after 3rd May 2007?

Who witin the OC was in contact with CB and how do you know they had knowledge of a child being left alone?

A terrible job could be anything.

Those are not supporting facts, they are speculations imo.

I see them as supporting facts.. I think your bias is preventing your mind being open
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Wonderfulspam on August 12, 2021, 09:58:44 AM

Why would abducting a child to rape be a 'terrible job' for Brueckner?

I thought he liked paedophilia?

Catching something small was something he was looking forward to, according to him.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on August 12, 2021, 10:07:47 AM
I see them as supporting facts.. I think your bias is preventing your mind being open

Your opinion about what amounts to a fact differs from mine. Perhaps due to your bias?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Wonderfulspam on August 12, 2021, 10:21:46 AM


'Evidence' of this kind comes down to one persons word against another.

As someone once said.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Davel on August 12, 2021, 10:30:01 AM
Your opinion about what amounts to a fact differs from mine. Perhaps due to your bias?
The professional investigators seem to agree with me re abduction
The whole of the initial inveztigation was based on fallacies and therefore dont even qualify as speculation... Yet you support that.

It all deoends whether Wolters has actual facts to support his claims... He days he does
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on August 12, 2021, 11:08:15 AM
The professional investigators seem to agree with me re abduction
The whole of the initial inveztigation was based on fallacies and therefore dont even qualify as speculation... Yet you support that.

It all deoends whether Wolters has actual facts to support his claims... He days he does

Who knows where the fallacies lie in this case? You dismiss the evidence gathered by the PJ, but it exists and can be examined. You can place your faith in investigators whose evidence is unknown if you so desire, but as you have pointed out; professionals can be incompetent.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on August 12, 2021, 11:53:52 AM
Who knows where the fallacies lie in this case? You dismiss the evidence gathered by the PJ, but it exists and can be examined. You can place your faith in investigators whose evidence is unknown if you so desire, but as you have pointed out; professionals can be incompetent.

The evidence used by the Amaral PJ team was neither of use in finding Madeleine or to achieve his prime objective of 'nailing' her parents in line with his oft quoted theory of events.

None at all.

That is not to say that there was no evidence which could have been used to direct investigators to other areas for investigation.

Scotland Yard uncovered phone evidence which seemed to have been ignored and carried out rogatory interviews on burglars as a result.

Similarly their colleagues from the Porto PJ showed an interest in a dead former disgruntled employee of Mark Warner also as a result of checking the phone traffic of the night Madeleine vanished.

The present investigation also has evidence retrieved from a phone dump covering that period that their prime suspect's phone was in use in proximity to the McCann apartment.

So the evidence was there to be investigated at the time.  No-one bothered to look for it.  They were too tied into checking the McCann phone traffic instead.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: misty on August 12, 2021, 12:28:11 PM
^^^
I would have thought so. The message on the gate reads roughly - "We apologize for anything caused during our work" ... and the logo is of construction company, JA Duarte & Filho - http://en.jaduartefilho.com/ (http://en.jaduartefilho.com/)

Thank you. I wonder why the local press haven't picked up on this development, given the villa's history in Madeleine's case?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Anthro on August 12, 2021, 12:29:37 PM
Picture 3 shows a 2018 V/W Caravelle with a UK licence plate parked outside the property.

ETA Are you able to find out if the 3 photographs were all taken within a few days of each other?
The poster says he took the photos last Friday, Misty.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: misty on August 12, 2021, 12:34:16 PM
The poster says he took the photos last Friday, Misty.

Thanks, Anthro; so very recent. Does the poster know if the villa changed hands as I'm intigued by the presence of that expensive V/W Caravelle?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Anthro on August 12, 2021, 01:18:01 PM
Thanks, Anthro; so very recent. Does the poster know if the villa changed hands as I'm intigued by the presence of that expensive V/W Caravelle?
He doesn’t seem to know if the property was sold or not, just that it was up for sale. Ps. Some of the comments question why everything except the driveway has been demolished (?)
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: jassi on August 12, 2021, 01:49:39 PM
Vehicular access perhaps?  Why dig up a perfectly good hard standing when it can be removed later.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: misty on August 12, 2021, 04:24:15 PM
He doesn’t seem to know if the property was sold or not, just that it was up for sale. Ps. Some of the comments question why everything except the driveway has been demolished (?)

Thanks again. The property had been up for sale for years but I do appreciate the land may be of more value to a developer than the property itself.
It was the construction of the rear driveway which concerned Stephen Birch back in 2012 and, looking at the first photos, that seems to have been removed.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Myster on August 12, 2021, 05:15:50 PM
Thank you. I wonder why the local press haven't picked up on this development, given the villa's history in Madeleine's case?
They might have... not everything is online.  Then again, local news editors probably think the residents are heartily sick of hearing about the McCanns.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: John on August 13, 2021, 12:42:15 PM
It certainly is weird to think that in the "woke and wandered" theory nobody finds it odd that Madeleine should walk straight into a paedophile who grabbed her.
Were they really as prevalent as that?

Why should it be odd? These things do happen but mercifully on very few occasions. We know that Praia da Luz was a favourite hangout for paedophiles so the chances of that occurring were unfortunately elevated.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on August 13, 2021, 01:01:02 PM
Why should it be odd? These things do happen but mercifully on very few occasions. We know that Praia da Luz was a favourite hangout for paedophiles so the chances of that occurring were unfortunately elevated.

The majority of the woke and wandered cases I've read about ~ of which there are amazingly quite a few ~ the wanderer is returned unharmed.

Amazingly they all seem to lead a charmed life as far as traffic is concerned because I don't think I've read of any.

I have seen quite a few videos of a stranger abduction in progress.  Sometimes thwarted by family intervention and sometimes tragically not.

But I don't recall a report of a woke and wandered child being lifted by a paedophile right on the doorstep.


The oddness is that there was for a time a huge denial of burglaries and paedophile activity taking place in the Algarve.

Therefore the fact that it is accepted as a normal occurrence by these same deniers, that the minute Madeleine stepped over the threshold a predatory paedophile lay in wait is I find a decidedly odd conclusion for them to reach.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: John on August 13, 2021, 01:19:23 PM
The majority of the woke and wandered cases I've read about ~ of which there are amazingly quite a few ~ the wanderer is returned unharmed.

Amazingly they all seem to lead a charmed life as far as traffic is concerned because I don't think I've read of any.

I have seen quite a few videos of a stranger abduction in progress.  Sometimes thwarted by family intervention and sometimes tragically not.

But I don't recall a report of a woke and wandered child being lifted by a paedophile right on the doorstep.


The oddness is that there was for a time a huge denial of burglaries and paedophile activity taking place in the Algarve.

Therefore the fact that it is accepted as a normal occurrence by these same deniers, that the minute Madeleine stepped over the threshold a predatory paedophile lay in wait is I find a decidedly odd conclusion for them to reach.

I accept your points certainly but there is a first time for everything as the saying goes and if that did indeed happen to Madeleine then she was truly a very unfortunate child.

My own view is that she was the unfortunate victim of a terrible car accident and that the driver involved initially sought medical assistance (Smith sighting) but failed. Initial remorse and wishing to do the right thing is often followed by guilt and the need to cover up. If this did happen then the man involved was the man the Smiths saw, what occurred next is anyone's guess.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: jassi on August 13, 2021, 01:25:42 PM
I accept your points certainly but there is a first time for everything as the saying goes and if that did indeed happen to Madeleine then she was truly a very unfortunate child.

My own view is that she was the unfortunate victim of a terrible car accident and that the driver involved initially sought medical assistance (Smith sighting) but failed. Initial remorse and wishing to do the right thing is often followed by guilt and the need to cover up. If this did happen then the man involved was the man the Smiths saw, what occurred next is anyone's guess.

If this were the case, why carry her through the streets on foot, rather than in the car and what happened to this car if it was left near the scene of the accident while he ran through the streets ?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on August 13, 2021, 01:29:34 PM
I accept your points certainly but there is a first time for everything as the saying goes and if that did indeed happen to Madeleine then she was truly a very unfortunate child.

My own view is that she was the unfortunate victim of a terrible car accident and that the driver involved initially sought medical assistance (Smith sighting) but failed. Initial remorse and wishing to do the right thing is often followed by guilt and the need to cover up. If this did happen then the man involved was the man the Smiths saw, what occurred next is anyone's guess.

There is evidence that at least one truck was being driven at speed in the area https://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/britain/we-saw-speeding-truck-and-suspicious-characters-but-police-never-asked-irish-journalist-recalls-night-madeleine-mccann-disappeared-39258350.html
But there was no evidence that there had been a RTA ~ and that was something that the Portuguese police did check out.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: John on August 13, 2021, 03:31:57 PM
If this were the case, why carry her through the streets on foot, rather than in the car and what happened to this car if it was left near the scene of the accident while he ran through the streets ?

He was only seen on foot by the Smiths and coincidentally down by the medical centre which just happened to be closed that night. Amaral sought the CCTV footage further up the road but left it too late and it was overwritten. Thus there is no evidence he walked to the town centre or drove there.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: John on August 13, 2021, 03:33:48 PM
There is evidence that at least one truck was being driven at speed in the area https://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/britain/we-saw-speeding-truck-and-suspicious-characters-but-police-never-asked-irish-journalist-recalls-night-madeleine-mccann-disappeared-39258350.html
But there was no evidence that there had been a RTA ~ and that was something that the Portuguese police did check out.

There wouldn't necessarily be any evidence that a truck hit a child. Can happen in seconds and the offending vehicle disappear just as quick.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: jassi on August 13, 2021, 03:36:54 PM
He was only seen on foot by the Smiths and coincidentally down by the medical centre which just happened to be closed that night. Amaral sought the CCTV footage further up the road but left it too late and it was overwritten. Thus there is no evidence he walked to the town centre or drove there.

But why would he park the car & then walk?
If you were in that situation, would you not drive the car right up to the door, or at least the very nearest you could get to it ?

I really think this idea of going to the medical centre  with an injured child.is a non-starter.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on August 17, 2021, 09:46:41 PM
EXCLUSIVE: Maddie McCann suspect moved to high-security 'German Alcatraz' prison to be watched 24/7
Christian Brueckner's lawyer did not comment on why he has been moved to a super-max German prison dubbed the Alcatraz of The North where he can be watched 24/7 - but it is believed it comes after a scuffle with guards

Christian B was identified as the prime suspect in the disappearance of Madeleine McCann

ByAdam Aspinall, in OldenburgRob Hyde
20:00, 17 Aug 2021UPDATED20:11, 17 Aug 2021

The prime suspect in the Madeleine McCann case has been moved to a new high-security prison dubbed the Alcatraz of The North.

Christian Brueckner, who German investigators believe murdered Madeleine in 2007, is now in solitary confinement at Oldenburg prison near Bremen, north west Germany.

Although the modern prison is a step up in comfort from his previous jails it is covered with CCTV cameras.

All the doors and windows within the walls are made from special reinforced safety glass so guards can keep an eye on prisoners at all times.

Escape is thought to be almost impossible at the high-tech facility which is surrounded by a 22ft wall - although one prisoner managed to flee after befriending a guard.

When contacted by The Mirror, Brueckner’s lawyer, Friedrich Fuelscher, declined to comment on why Brueckner had been transferred.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/maddie-mccann-suspect-moved-high-24780962

Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on August 18, 2021, 01:56:44 AM
EXCLUSIVE: Maddie McCann suspect moved to high-security 'German Alcatraz' prison to be watched 24/7
Christian Brueckner's lawyer did not comment on why he has been moved to a super-max German prison dubbed the Alcatraz of The North where he can be watched 24/7 - but it is believed it comes after a scuffle with guards

Christian B was identified as the prime suspect in the disappearance of Madeleine McCann

ByAdam Aspinall, in OldenburgRob Hyde
20:00, 17 Aug 2021UPDATED20:11, 17 Aug 2021

The prime suspect in the Madeleine McCann case has been moved to a new high-security prison dubbed the Alcatraz of The North.

Christian Brueckner, who German investigators believe murdered Madeleine in 2007, is now in solitary confinement at Oldenburg prison near Bremen, north west Germany.

Although the modern prison is a step up in comfort from his previous jails it is covered with CCTV cameras.

All the doors and windows within the walls are made from special reinforced safety glass so guards can keep an eye on prisoners at all times.

Escape is thought to be almost impossible at the high-tech facility which is surrounded by a 22ft wall - although one prisoner managed to flee after befriending a guard.

When contacted by The Mirror, Brueckner’s lawyer, Friedrich Fuelscher, declined to comment on why Brueckner had been transferred.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/maddie-mccann-suspect-moved-high-24780962

Do you think if you say "prime suspect" often enough people start to believe he did it? I'm pretty sure that's how it works.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on August 18, 2021, 07:23:13 AM
Do you think if you say "prime suspect" often enough people start to believe he did it? I'm pretty sure that's how it works.
He is the prime suspect, unless you can think of another term to describe him?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: barrier on August 18, 2021, 09:04:41 AM
Nothing new here, move along please.Dated Nov 20.

Maddie McCann suspect 'to be moved to former Gestapo jail before interrogation'
German paedophile Christian Brueckner, who is suspected of abducting and killing Madeleine McCann, will be moved to the Wolfenbuttel or Celle maximum security prison in January, it is reported


https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/maddie-mccann-suspect-to-moved-23091982
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on August 18, 2021, 09:29:29 AM
Nothing new here, move along please.Dated Nov 20.

Maddie McCann suspect 'to be moved to former Gestapo jail before interrogation'
German paedophile Christian Brueckner, who is suspected of abducting and killing Madeleine McCann, will be moved to the Wolfenbuttel or Celle maximum security prison in January, it is reported


https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/maddie-mccann-suspect-to-moved-23091982
That’s a different prison is it not?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: barrier on August 18, 2021, 09:36:25 AM
That’s a different prison is it not?

Nonsense story, unless you think there's an ascending maximal.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on August 18, 2021, 09:40:49 AM
Nonsense story, unless you think there's an ascending maximal.
What’s one of them then?  Are you suggesting he’s not been moved to a different prison?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Myster on August 18, 2021, 09:59:34 AM
It's just the opposite of a descending minimal.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on August 18, 2021, 10:00:19 AM
It's just the opposite of a descending minimal.
Is that something to do with music? 
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on August 18, 2021, 10:03:09 AM
Apparently there is such a thing as super-maximum prisons, perhaps this is what Barrier is objecting to?  I suggest he should petition world governments to do away with this Ascending Maximal,on the grounds that it's a clear affront to his grammatical sensibilitie's (sic).
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on August 18, 2021, 10:31:01 AM
Nonsense story, unless you think there's an ascending maximal.

I think he may have moved address yet again.  From Kiel to Braunschweig to Oldenburg .
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on August 18, 2021, 10:53:44 AM

I think they are trying to protect him Breuckner.  They hardly want him dead.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on August 18, 2021, 11:04:53 AM
I think they are trying to protect him Breuckner.  They hardly want him dead.

I think it possible that someone somewhere would be prepared to pay quite a bit of money for that occurrence. He must have amassed quite a bit of information over the years which some might find to be more than an embarrassment.  So he will be under close observation.

The chances even of 'suicide' or are reduced by the observation arrangements of toughened glass and no doubt CCTV.  I think the intervention of a friendly guard will be next to impossible too since somebody has already done that and I doubt it will be allowed to happen again.

If they have the evidence the authorities will want him alive to face trial.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on August 18, 2021, 11:10:23 AM
He sure seems to be being treated as something more than just a common or garden rapist. 
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on August 18, 2021, 11:21:27 AM
He sure seems to be being treated as something more than just a common or garden rapist.

Heinous as any suggested crime against Madeleine may be I think investigations stretch far beyond her case. 
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on August 18, 2021, 11:28:04 AM
I think he may have moved address yet again.  From Kiel to Braunschweig to Oldenburg .

It was announced that he would be leaving Kiel, in Schleswig-Holstein for a prison in Lower Saxony when his sentence for drug offences was served. The reason was that he was then going to serve another sentence for rape and it was the Prosecutors in Braunschweig who prosecuted him for that crime. There was speculation about which prison he would be moved to but I don't remember a definite destination being reported, just speculation.

Unless there are definite reports of previous moves, it looks like Oldenburg was the prison to which he was moved from Kiel, imo.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on August 18, 2021, 11:49:11 AM
It was announced that he would be leaving Kiel, in Schleswig-Holstein for a prison in Lower Saxony when his sentence for drug offences was served. The reason was that he was then going to serve another sentence for rape and it was the Prosecutors in Braunschweig who prosecuted him for that crime. There was speculation about which prison he would be moved to but I don't remember a definite destination being reported, just speculation.

Unless there are definite reports of previous moves, it looks like Oldenburg was the prison to which he was moved from Kiel, imo.
It would appear he has been moved 3 times

 "he fell and broke his ribs in a scuffle with guards at the grim Wolfenbüttel prison near Braunschweig.

Previously he was held in Kiel but was reportedly unhappy because he was bullied by other inmates for his alleged link to the McCann case".

ETA: I think the scuffle incident was at a temproary holding cell so not somewhere he was incarcerated for any length of time.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on August 18, 2021, 12:02:49 PM
It would appear he has been moved 3 times

 "he fell and broke his ribs in a scuffle with guards at the grim Wolfenbüttel prison near Braunschweig.

Previously he was held in Kiel but was reportedly unhappy because he was bullied by other inmates for his alleged link to the McCann case".

Protect him at whatever the cost, please.  I want him to serve every minute of the sentences of which he has been convicted.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: barrier on August 18, 2021, 01:11:32 PM
The "latest" news has CB transferred to Oldenburg, he's already there, none story, still it gives succour to some to believe its new..


Dated June.

Quote
Brueckner is serving a seven-year prison sentence in Oldenburg,

https://www.news.com.au/world/europe/madeleine-mccann-suspect-christian-brueckner-breaks-silence-in-prison-letter/news-story/81b719811193aa3f9f55ab5cdef4591a
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on August 18, 2021, 01:27:43 PM
It would appear he has been moved 3 times

 "he fell and broke his ribs in a scuffle with guards at the grim Wolfenbüttel prison near Braunschweig.

Previously he was held in Kiel but was reportedly unhappy because he was bullied by other inmates for his alleged link to the McCann case".

ETA: I think the scuffle incident was at a temproary holding cell so not somewhere he was incarcerated for any length of time.

I have seen reports of broken ribs when he was brought to court in Braunschweig (?) for a parole hearing. Did he have other broken ribs in a prison? I've seen no reports of that.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on August 18, 2021, 01:33:27 PM
I have seen reports of broken ribs when he was brought to court in Braunschweig (?) for a parole hearing. Did he have other broken ribs in a prison? I've seen no reports of that.
I didn’t say he had other broken ribs. 
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on August 18, 2021, 01:34:39 PM
The "latest" news has CB transferred to Oldenburg, he's already there, none story, still it gives succour to some to believe its new..


Dated June.

https://www.news.com.au/world/europe/madeleine-mccann-suspect-christian-brueckner-breaks-silence-in-prison-letter/news-story/81b719811193aa3f9f55ab5cdef4591a
Yeah, I’m totally succored by this news, it’s really the most important news I’ve read all month.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on August 19, 2021, 11:04:23 AM
I didn’t say he had other broken ribs.

The article did.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on August 19, 2021, 11:28:06 AM
A good article quoting a Journalist turned Professor Jon Silverman. In particular;

“We can speculate for as long as we like – and goodness knows over 13 years there have been so many sightings and tip-offs and false leads – but just because this man is a convicted sex offender and committed burglaries in the Algarve area around the time that she was taken, and the fact that he reportedly said something in a bar in Germany in 2017 which suggested he had some intimate knowledge of Madeleine's disappearance, all these things still remain circumstantial until proven otherwise.

“This is the first time in these 13 long years that the focus has been on one specific individual and this man’s criminal profile certainly matches the sort of person who is thought to have taken Madeleine McCann, so all these circumstantial facts give added strength to the case.

“But I should say that we need to be cautious because there is clearly no conclusive forensic scientific or DNA evidence that places Madeleine in either of his two vehicles that we've heard about, otherwise this man – Christian B – would have already been charged.

“This is the first time in these 13 long years that the focus has been on one specific individual and this man’s criminal profile certainly matches the sort of person who is thought to have taken Madeleine McCann, so all these circumstantial facts give added strength to the case.

“But I should say that we need to be cautious because there is clearly no conclusive forensic scientific or DNA evidence that places Madeleine in either of his two vehicles that we've heard about, otherwise this man – Christian B – would have already been charged.

“The difference between the approach taken by Scotland Yard and the German prosecutor is striking. For the German authorities to say that they have evidence that Madeleine is dead whilst also admitting that they do not have a body and may not be able to charge the suspect, is both very curious and unusual, and so has re-awakened media interest in a case which may never be solved.”
https://www.beds.ac.uk/news/2020/june/be-cautious-of-new-mccann-evidence-until-charges-are-made-professor-warns/
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: jassi on August 19, 2021, 11:43:00 AM
Seems to me that the Germans, with the eager cooperation of the media have set the stage for the Last Act which will conclude that "Brueckner is guilty even though we can't prove it before a Court".
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on August 19, 2021, 12:27:11 PM
Seems to me that the Germans, with the eager cooperation of the media have set the stage for the Last Act which will conclude that "Brueckner is guilty even though we can't prove it before a Court".

Let's wait and see if the Germans can prove it in court before passing judgement.  They tried and convicted Brueckner in Germany for the heinous torture and rape perpetrated in Praia da Luz.

So their record in solving cold Portuguese criminal cases and achieving justice for the victim of crime  appears to be a good one.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Anthro on August 19, 2021, 12:36:38 PM
The findmadeleine.com site has added the two Smith e-fits. Does anyone know when this was done?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on August 19, 2021, 12:41:07 PM
The findmadeleine.com site has added the two Smith e-fits. Does anyone know when this was done?

Sorry I can't help Anthro.  Someone will know because I've seen loads of complaints that allegedly they are not given the same prominence as Jane Tanner's sighting.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: jassi on August 19, 2021, 12:41:34 PM
Let's wait and see if the Germans can prove it in court before passing judgement.  They tried and convicted Brueckner in Germany for the heinous torture and rape perpetrated in Praia da Luz.

So their record in solving cold Portuguese criminal cases and achieving justice for the victim of crime  appears to be a good one.


I'm waiting  ?{)(**
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on August 19, 2021, 12:57:09 PM

I'm waiting  ?{)(**

I hope you don't have long to wait and I hope the result is more to my liking than it could ever be for sceptic tastes.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on August 19, 2021, 01:03:48 PM
Seems to me that the Germans, with the eager cooperation of the media have set the stage for the Last Act which will conclude that "Brueckner is guilty even though we can't prove it before a Court".

I wonder how Operation Grange would react to that?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: jassi on August 19, 2021, 01:09:35 PM
I wonder how Operation Grange would react to that?

I reckon they'd breathe a great sigh of relief that they were off the hook.

Home Office likewise.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Davel on August 19, 2021, 01:21:55 PM
Seems to me that the Germans, with the eager cooperation of the media have set the stage for the Last Act which will conclude that "Brueckner is guilty even though we can't prove it before a Court".

Wolters has every right to say that as long as he shows the evidence its based on so that the public can evaluate it. If he does perhaps  grange can then end their investigation.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on August 19, 2021, 01:41:32 PM
I reckon they'd breathe a great sigh of relief that they were off the hook.

Home Office likewise.

Were they ever on the hook.  Can't say I ever thought so.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: jassi on August 19, 2021, 01:59:25 PM
You mean you never had any expectation of them solving the case, or at least coming up with a believable explanation for their 12 million ?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on August 19, 2021, 02:15:08 PM
Wolters has every right to say that as long as he shows the evidence its based on so that the public can evaluate it. If he does perhaps  grange can then end their investigation.

Will The Public be allowed to see this?  Or just The Judges at any Trial?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on August 19, 2021, 02:17:05 PM
Wolters has every right to say that as long as he shows the evidence its based on so that the public can evaluate it. If he does perhaps  grange can then end their investigation.

I think you have as much chance of seeing Wolters' evidence as you have of seeing Operation Grange's.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on August 19, 2021, 02:21:41 PM
I think you have as much chance of seeing Wolters' evidence as you have of seeing Operation Grange's.

But not for the reasons that you mean.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on August 19, 2021, 02:28:07 PM
But not for the reasons that you mean.

How mysterious.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: barrier on August 19, 2021, 03:24:40 PM
The findmadeleine.com site has added the two Smith e-fits. Does anyone know when this was done?

Which means he's never been identified, he's the key and always as been imo.

Also there's a grange number on the home page has that always been there ?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on August 19, 2021, 04:20:12 PM
Which means he's never been identified, he's the key and always as been imo.

Also there's a grange number on the home page has that always been there ?

I think you could be right.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: jassi on August 19, 2021, 04:22:55 PM
Could the Wayback machine answer those questions ?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on August 19, 2021, 05:44:13 PM
How mysterious.

Not in the slightest.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on August 19, 2021, 05:46:27 PM
Could the Wayback machine answer those questions ?

Good question.  It probably could.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on August 19, 2021, 06:25:41 PM
The findmadeleine.com site has added the two Smith e-fits. Does anyone know when this was done?
A long time ago.  They were certainly on there at least a year ago.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on August 19, 2021, 10:43:24 PM


EXCLUSIVE: First look inside Madeleine McCann suspect's sinister cellar 'dungeon' dug under home
The Mirror is the first newspaper to gain access to the creepy site and inspect the grim, dank cellar in convicted paedophile Christian Bruckner's former home in Germanytps://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/first-look-inside-madeleine-mccann-24798244
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on August 20, 2021, 03:27:36 AM

EXCLUSIVE: First look inside Madeleine McCann suspect's sinister cellar 'dungeon' dug under home
The Mirror is the first newspaper to gain access to the creepy site and inspect the grim, dank cellar in convicted paedophile Christian Bruckner's former home in Germanytps://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/first-look-inside-madeleine-mccann-24798244

That's convinced me. A grim dark cellar. Combine that with the phone mast ping in the PDL area, the car registration change, and the sick fantasies he wrote to other paedophiles and you've got a rock solid case now!! He'll be charged on Monday!!!
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on August 20, 2021, 05:37:08 AM
That's convinced me. A grim dark cellar. Combine that with the phone mast ping in the PDL area, the car registration change, and the sick fantasies he wrote to other paedophiles and you've got a rock solid case now!! He'll be charged on Monday!!!

I think you might just have convinced me as well.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on August 20, 2021, 07:13:44 AM
That's convinced me. A grim dark cellar. Combine that with the phone mast ping in the PDL area, the car registration change, and the sick fantasies he wrote to other paedophiles and you've got a rock solid case now!! He'll be charged on Monday!!!
Don’t be silly.  No one has claimed this was the missing piece of evidence needed for s conviction.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Davel on August 20, 2021, 08:47:56 AM
A good article quoting a Journalist turned Professor Jon Silverman. In particular;

“We can speculate for as long as we like – and goodness knows over 13 years there have been so many sightings and tip-offs and false leads – but just because this man is a convicted sex offender and committed burglaries in the Algarve area around the time that she was taken, and the fact that he reportedly said something in a bar in Germany in 2017 which suggested he had some intimate knowledge of Madeleine's disappearance, all these things still remain circumstantial until proven otherwise.

“This is the first time in these 13 long years that the focus has been on one specific individual and this man’s criminal profile certainly matches the sort of person who is thought to have taken Madeleine McCann, so all these circumstantial facts give added strength to the case.

“But I should say that we need to be cautious because there is clearly no conclusive forensic scientific or DNA evidence that places Madeleine in either of his two vehicles that we've heard about, otherwise this man – Christian B – would have already been charged.

“This is the first time in these 13 long years that the focus has been on one specific individual and this man’s criminal profile certainly matches the sort of person who is thought to have taken Madeleine McCann, so all these circumstantial facts give added strength to the case.

“But I should say that we need to be cautious because there is clearly no conclusive forensic scientific or DNA evidence that places Madeleine in either of his two vehicles that we've heard about, otherwise this man – Christian B – would have already been charged.

“The difference between the approach taken by Scotland Yard and the German prosecutor is striking. For the German authorities to say that they have evidence that Madeleine is dead whilst also admitting that they do not have a body and may not be able to charge the suspect, is both very curious and unusual, and so has re-awakened media interest in a case which may never be solved.”
https://www.beds.ac.uk/news/2020/june/be-cautious-of-new-mccann-evidence-until-charges-are-made-professor-warns/

I think its unlikely this man has watched the several videos featuring Wolters tthat some here have. If he hhad he might understand what the evidence might well bei


Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on August 20, 2021, 09:27:45 AM
That's convinced me. A grim dark cellar. Combine that with the phone mast ping in the PDL area, the car registration change, and the sick fantasies he wrote to other paedophiles and you've got a rock solid case now!! He'll be charged on Monday!!!

We have known for quite some time that it was alleged that Brueckner had a fascination with Fritzl and most of us know who Doutroux is.

The fact that Brueckner was in the process of digging out a ten foot deep cellar underneath his residence is neither here nor there as far as Madeleine's case is concerned.

But in my opinion it shows his capabilities and perhaps his thought processes.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on August 20, 2021, 09:33:01 AM
We have known for quite some time that it was alleged that Brueckner had a fascination with Fritzl and most of us know who Doutroux is.

The fact that Brueckner was in the process of digging out a ten foot deep cellar underneath his residence is neither here nor there as far as Madeleine's case is concerned.

But in my opinion it shows his capabilities and perhaps his thought processes.

No-one is disputing his sick intentions. That/s what makes him a good patsy imo
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on August 20, 2021, 09:43:37 AM
No-one is disputing his sick intentions. That/s what makes him a good patsy imo
Why would the Germans want to make him a patsy for a crime they had hitherto no interest or stake in?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on August 20, 2021, 10:10:26 AM
Why would the Germans want to make him a patsy for a crime they had hitherto no interest or stake in?

they wanted more time to hold him imo.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on August 20, 2021, 10:19:07 AM
they wanted more time to hold him imo.

But they have that anyway.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on August 20, 2021, 10:21:09 AM
they wanted more time to hold him imo.
He's in prison for the next 6 years FGS! 
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: barrier on August 20, 2021, 10:33:28 AM
He's in prison for the next 6 years FGS!

Indeed, now wasn't the original place of incarceration near Braunschweig which was close to the Investigators in Germany, now having been moved away from there, doesn't it seem kind of logical the BKA in or around Braunschweig don't have any intention of talking to CB any time soon about Madeleine, not withstanding concrete evidence.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on August 20, 2021, 10:47:22 AM
Indeed, now wasn't the original place of incarceration near Braunschweig which was close to the Investigators in Germany, now having been moved away from there, doesn't it seem kind of logical the BKA in or around Braunschweig don't have any intention of talking to CB any time soon about Madeleine, not withstanding concrete evidence.
I hear the autobahns in Germany are quite efficient, so shouldn't be too logistically difficult to interview him when the time comes.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: barrier on August 20, 2021, 10:53:56 AM
I hear the autobahns in Germany are quite efficient, so shouldn't be too logistically difficult to interview him when the time comes.

If more like, won't be long now, or maybe another Christmas will come and go, my monies on the latter.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on August 20, 2021, 10:54:49 AM
No-one is disputing his sick intentions. That/s what makes him a good patsy imo

I rather think you and other sceptics have taken the lead from Amaral in downplaying the propensities of this "good patsy".

In fact so concerned was Amaral about him he lied about his appearance - even producing photoshopped images as his 'proof'.

At the moment this creature is anything but a patsy.  He is the prime suspect in Madeleine McCann's disappearance and it has been officially reported that he is being investigated for other crimes.

Your use of "patsy" puts a label of your own making on you I think.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Lace on August 20, 2021, 11:59:12 AM
That's convinced me. A grim dark cellar. Combine that with the phone mast ping in the PDL area, the car registration change, and the sick fantasies he wrote to other paedophiles and you've got a rock solid case now!! He'll be charged on Monday!!!

Why would he want a soundproof cellar. did he own drums?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: barrier on August 20, 2021, 12:07:20 PM
Why would he want a soundproof cellar. did he own drums?

Why indeed, he's supposed to have snatched madeleine with out  a sound, there again it could all be bollox.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on August 20, 2021, 12:22:58 PM
Why indeed, he's supposed to have snatched madeleine with out  a sound, there again it could all be bollox.

He managed to rape and torture a woman very discretely and without trace bar one.  You don't have breaking and entering as a successful part of your portfolio unless you can do it "without a sound".
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on August 20, 2021, 12:34:49 PM
The findmadeleine.com site has added the two Smith e-fits. Does anyone know when this was done?

According to Wayback it was between 3rd July and 1st August 2015.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on August 20, 2021, 05:55:15 PM
He managed to rape and torture a woman very discretely and without trace bar one.  You don't have breaking and entering as a successful part of your portfolio unless you can do it "without a sound".

It’s an established fact that you can’t open the shutters in 5A without a sound.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on August 20, 2021, 06:00:04 PM
It’s an established fact that you can’t open the shutters in 5A without a sound.

No it isn't.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on August 20, 2021, 06:07:50 PM
No it isn't.

It is. They were described as noisy. You can hear them on one You Tube video. It largely irrelevant anyway as the shutters as an entry point story didn’t last much longer than 48 hours imo and even the T7 don’t provide a great deal of corroboration about them being open before the alarm was raised.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on August 20, 2021, 06:27:11 PM
It is. They were described as noisy. You can hear them on one You Tube video. It largely irrelevant anyway as the shutters as an entry point story didn’t last much longer than 48 hours imo and even the T7 don’t provide a great deal of corroboration about them being open before the alarm was raised.

It depends on how they were opened.

You do state some rubbish sometimes.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on August 20, 2021, 07:37:06 PM
It depends on how they were opened.

You do state some rubbish sometimes.

Well enlighten me - how is it possible to open shutters without creating any sound waves?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on August 20, 2021, 07:48:22 PM
Well enlighten me - how is it possible to open shutters without creating any sound waves?

I've told you once already.  I'm not doing it again.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on August 20, 2021, 08:55:08 PM
It is. They were described as noisy. You can hear them on one You Tube video. It largely irrelevant anyway as the shutters as an entry point story didn’t last much longer than 48 hours imo and even the T7 don’t provide a great deal of corroboration about them being open before the alarm was raised.

Noisy shutters;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3R4p2hRXvY

Corroborated by a witness;

We used to open the blinds during the day, returning to close them at night. When the blinds were [being] closed they would make much noise.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAUL_GORDON.htm
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on August 20, 2021, 10:03:35 PM
Noisy shutters;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3R4p2hRXvY

Corroborated by a witness;

We used to open the blinds during the day, returning to close them at night. When the blinds were [being] closed they would make much noise.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAUL_GORDON.htm

In a village where all the windows were covered by shutters it would be a non-event to hear shutters either being raised or lowered.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on August 20, 2021, 10:17:48 PM
In a village where all the windows were covered by shutters it would be a non-event to hear shutters either being raised or lowered.

Not to those peacefully sleeping in the room imo.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on August 20, 2021, 10:28:31 PM
Not to those peacefully sleeping in the room imo.
A pointless observation imo.  The twins both slept through alot of noise and light.  My own children used to sleep through firework displays virtually outside their bedroom window, what you think you would do or how you would react in a set of circumstances doesn’t hold true for every other person.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on August 20, 2021, 10:28:50 PM
Not to those peacefully sleeping in the room imo.

Really?  and you know this how?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on August 20, 2021, 10:46:38 PM
Really?  and you know this how?

It's my opinion.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on August 20, 2021, 10:52:20 PM
It's my opinion.
not a particularly valid one IMO.  How noisy are the shutters when opened slowly and carefully?  Do you know?  How much noise do they make inside a room if the windows are closed when the shutters are raised?  Do you know that? 
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Lace on August 21, 2021, 09:09:08 AM
Noisy shutters;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3R4p2hRXvY

Corroborated by a witness;

We used to open the blinds during the day, returning to close them at night. When the blinds were [being] closed they would make much noise.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAUL_GORDON.htm


PM was manually pulling them up,  would they make that much noise if the shutters were risen from inside 5a?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on August 21, 2021, 12:24:37 PM

PM was manually pulling them up,  would they make that much noise if the shutters were risen from inside 5a?

I'm not an expert on these shutters, I only have experience of German wooden shutters which didn't have that metallic rattle, and, being heavier, offered more security imo.


(https://www.wooden-blinds.eu/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/SKIRPUS-outdoor-exterior-wooden-blinds-for-historical-buildings-Kempen-1.jpg)
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on August 21, 2021, 12:51:47 PM

We have the same Portuguese Shutters here.  And I never hear anyone pulling them up or down.

Nor did anyone hear anyone breaking into the Bar down the road back along.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on August 21, 2021, 01:01:48 PM
We're reduced to arguing about opinions, which are obviously going to differ.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on August 21, 2021, 01:06:48 PM
We're reduced to arguing about opinions, which are obviously going to differ.

My comment isn't Opinion.  It's Fact.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on August 21, 2021, 03:20:07 PM
My comment isn't Opinion.  It's Fact.

I'm sure it is - for you. I expect the same is true for Portuguese residents. Not neccessarily for those unused to the sound though.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on August 21, 2021, 03:26:16 PM
I'm sure it is - for you. I expect the same is true for Portuguese residents. Not neccessarily for those unused to the sound though.

Three sleeping children do you mean?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on August 21, 2021, 04:36:05 PM
I'm not an expert on these shutters, I only have experience of German wooden shutters which didn't have that metallic rattle, and, being heavier, offered more security imo.


(https://www.wooden-blinds.eu/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/SKIRPUS-outdoor-exterior-wooden-blinds-for-historical-buildings-Kempen-1.jpg)

Those look exactly like the wooden venetian blinds I used to have ~ great on a particular type of window as here but I would never have thought of them as shutters.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on August 21, 2021, 07:54:07 PM
Those look exactly like the wooden venetian blinds I used to have ~ great on a particular type of window as here but I would never have thought of them as shutters.

The ones pictured look a bit flimsy. Ours were very heavy; you wouldn't have been able to lift them from outside.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on August 21, 2021, 08:32:50 PM
The ones pictured look a bit flimsy. Ours were very heavy; you wouldn't have been able to lift them from outside.

Mine were of course interior and being wood were certainly heavier than aluminium ones.  Those illustrated are exterior mounted I think although I'm not sure what the weather would do to the 'strings'.

I would imagine that there will be few of the Portuguese type in existence now.  As well as giving shade I think they would have to go for security as well.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on August 21, 2021, 09:44:07 PM
Mine were of course interior and being wood were certainly heavier than aluminium ones.  Those illustrated are exterior mounted I think although I'm not sure what the weather would do to the 'strings'.

I would imagine that there will be few of the Portuguese type in existence now.  As well as giving shade I think they would have to go for security as well.

I think the 'strings' are made of steel, and the wood is seasoned. German efficiency of course.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on August 22, 2021, 03:57:52 AM
No single abductor left 5A with Madeleine through the shuttered window. IMO, and that of others who have measured them, it's a nigh impossible task.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on August 22, 2021, 07:13:05 AM
No single abductor left 5A with Madeleine through the shuttered window. IMO, and that of others who have measured them, it's a nigh impossible task.
Which laws of physics does it defy?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 22, 2021, 12:04:05 PM
Which laws of physics does it defy?
It is hard to even make a joke of that.    You can't fit a round pig through a square hole.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on August 22, 2021, 12:27:04 PM
It is hard to even make a joke of that.    You can't fit a round pig through a square hole.

4078    “I assumed it was quite a large window that someone would be easy, it would be easy for somebody to get in and out but that, that’s not the case.”

 Reply    “Well I don’t think so, I mean err a fat person wouldn’t get through put it that way.”
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANE-WEBSTER-2.htm
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Eleanor on August 22, 2021, 12:34:01 PM
It is hard to even make a joke of that.    You can't fit a round pig through a square hole.

Oh Gosh.  I am so glad to see you back.  I don't care of what you think of it all.  I bloody well missed you.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on August 22, 2021, 02:42:03 PM
It is hard to even make a joke of that.    You can't fit a round pig through a square hole.
You can if the round pig's circumference is small enough.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on August 22, 2021, 05:14:00 PM
Which laws of physics does it defy?
[/quot
On the MS podcast series there’s an experienced, now retired, former UK detective who explains it based on the height of the window and it’s width plus factor in carrying a sleeping (or waking) 3 year old! IMO it didn’t happen!
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on August 22, 2021, 05:35:58 PM
Which laws of physics does it defy?
[/quot
On the MS podcast series there’s an experienced, now retired, former UK detective who explains it based on the height of the window and it’s width plus factor in carrying a sleeping (or waking) 3 year old! IMO it didn’t happen!
Is that Peter Mac by any chance?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on August 22, 2021, 07:16:43 PM
4078    “I assumed it was quite a large window that someone would be easy, it would be easy for somebody to get in and out but that, that’s not the case.”

 Reply    “Well I don’t think so, I mean err a fat person wouldn’t get through put it that way.”
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANE-WEBSTER-2.htm
(http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/zzrebelo2d.jpg.w300h156.jpg)
Paulo Rebelo opens the window to Maddie's bedroom
(http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/zzrebelo3d.jpg.w300h156.jpg)
An officer attempts to enter the apartment through Maddie's bedroom window

Correio da Manha - 30 October 2007
Paulo Rebelo was yesterday for the first time at the apartment where Madeleine disappeared from, in Praia da Luz. The new coordinator of the Criminal Investigation Department (CID) of Portimao led a team of six investigators who, throughout the afternoon, tested several scenarios and even made a possible reconstruction of what happened on the evening of May 3, in the apartment no. 5A of the Ocean Club.

In the company of the team members that he brought in from Lisbon - composed of two homicide inspectors, one from sexual abuse, another that is experienced in robberies and two specialists in technical analysis - Paulo Rebelo tried to find details and loose ends that may open new leads or confirm the existing ones.
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/id21.htm


If you are using Diane's statement to suggest the window was too small for entry or exit you obviously haven't had sight of these pictures which sort of contradict the impression you seem to be reinforcing.

There is not a burglar living or dead who would not be able to get through an aperture of that size whatever country in the world s/he was operating in.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Lace on August 22, 2021, 08:30:45 PM
4078    “I assumed it was quite a large window that someone would be easy, it would be easy for somebody to get in and out but that, that’s not the case.”

 Reply    “Well I don’t think so, I mean err a fat person wouldn’t get through put it that way.”
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANE-WEBSTER-2.htm

Did  Mrs Fenn have different sized windows in her apartment?   She said she caught a burglar and he exited through the window.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on August 22, 2021, 08:49:00 PM
Did  Mrs Fenn have different sized windows in her apartment?   She said she caught a burglar and he exited through the window.

The burglar wasn't carrying a child that was nearly four years old.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Anthro on August 22, 2021, 08:49:25 PM
Did  Mrs Fenn have different sized windows in her apartment?   She said she caught a burglar and he exited through the window.
Yes, and Brückner’s friends call him ‘the climber’.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on August 22, 2021, 08:55:02 PM
(http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/zzrebelo2d.jpg.w300h156.jpg)
Paulo Rebelo opens the window to Maddie's bedroom
(http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/zzrebelo3d.jpg.w300h156.jpg)
An officer attempts to enter the apartment through Maddie's bedroom window

Correio da Manha - 30 October 2007
Paulo Rebelo was yesterday for the first time at the apartment where Madeleine disappeared from, in Praia da Luz. The new coordinator of the Criminal Investigation Department (CID) of Portimao led a team of six investigators who, throughout the afternoon, tested several scenarios and even made a possible reconstruction of what happened on the evening of May 3, in the apartment no. 5A of the Ocean Club.

In the company of the team members that he brought in from Lisbon - composed of two homicide inspectors, one from sexual abuse, another that is experienced in robberies and two specialists in technical analysis - Paulo Rebelo tried to find details and loose ends that may open new leads or confirm the existing ones.
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/id21.htm


If you are using Diane's statement to suggest the window was too small for entry or exit you obviously haven't had sight of these pictures which sort of contradict the impression you seem to be reinforcing.

There is not a burglar living or dead who would not be able to get through an aperture of that size whatever country in the world s/he was operating in.

I was talking about the window as an exit point.... but thanks for the excellent link. It also states:

Jon Corner was quoted in the Daily Telegraph of 07 May 2007:
 
'Jon Corner, a close friend of Mrs McCann and godparent of the twins, said she telephoned him in the middle of the night distraught.
 
He said: "She just blurted out that Madeleine had been abducted. She told me, 'They have broken the shutter on the window and taken my little girl.'
 
"They had left the apartment locked while they were having their meal, but when they went back the last time they saw the damage."
 
*
 
The shutters of all the apartments are old and heat-affected and would mark very easily if forced, yet, as can be clearly seen, there is no damage at all to the shutter in question.
 
This can be seen even more clearly by following this link
 
It's also worth observing, from the link above, that the bedroom window appears to operate in a similar way to the patio doors at the rear of the apartment. There is one fixed pane and the other pane slides behind it. This would surely make the removal of a child by this route even more difficult and time consuming for an 'abductor' who we would assume wanted to get out as quick as possible. Using the front door to escape, or the 'open' patio doors, shrouded in darkness, would surely have been a much more sensible, and less conspicuous, option.
 
Link to complete Daily Telegraph article quoted above
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on August 22, 2021, 09:58:02 PM
I was talking about the window as an exit point.... but thanks for the excellent link. It also states:

Jon Corner was quoted in the Daily Telegraph of 07 May 2007:
 
'Jon Corner, a close friend of Mrs McCann and godparent of the twins, said she telephoned him in the middle of the night distraught.
 
He said: "She just blurted out that Madeleine had been abducted. She told me, 'They have broken the shutter on the window and taken my little girl.'
 
"They had left the apartment locked while they were having their meal, but when they went back the last time they saw the damage."
 
*
 
The shutters of all the apartments are old and heat-affected and would mark very easily if forced, yet, as can be clearly seen, there is no damage at all to the shutter in question.
 
This can be seen even more clearly by following this link
 
It's also worth observing, from the link above, that the bedroom window appears to operate in a similar way to the patio doors at the rear of the apartment. There is one fixed pane and the other pane slides behind it. This would surely make the removal of a child by this route even more difficult and time consuming for an 'abductor' who we would assume wanted to get out as quick as possible. Using the front door to escape, or the 'open' patio doors, shrouded in darkness, would surely have been a much more sensible, and less conspicuous, option.
 
Link to complete Daily Telegraph article quoted above


Philomena, Gerry's sister, still thought on 9th May that the apartment had been locked;

They were going back to check into a locked apartment, where they had left their kids sleeping, you know.
https://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/id250.htm

Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on August 22, 2021, 10:14:57 PM
I was talking about the window as an exit point.... but thanks for the excellent link. It also states:

Jon Corner was quoted in the Daily Telegraph of 07 May 2007:
 
'Jon Corner, a close friend of Mrs McCann and godparent of the twins, said she telephoned him in the middle of the night distraught.
 
He said: "She just blurted out that Madeleine had been abducted. She told me, 'They have broken the shutter on the window and taken my little girl.'
 
"They had left the apartment locked while they were having their meal, but when they went back the last time they saw the damage."
 
*
 
The shutters of all the apartments are old and heat-affected and would mark very easily if forced, yet, as can be clearly seen, there is no damage at all to the shutter in question.
 
This can be seen even more clearly by following this link
 
It's also worth observing, from the link above, that the bedroom window appears to operate in a similar way to the patio doors at the rear of the apartment. There is one fixed pane and the other pane slides behind it. This would surely make the removal of a child by this route even more difficult and time consuming for an 'abductor' who we would assume wanted to get out as quick as possible. Using the front door to escape, or the 'open' patio doors, shrouded in darkness, would surely have been a much more sensible, and less conspicuous, option.
 
Link to complete Daily Telegraph article quoted above

This bit was not written by a Telegraph journo but by some anonymous sceptic blogger.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on August 22, 2021, 10:41:24 PM
This bit was not written by a Telegraph journo but by some anonymous sceptic blogger.

Torygraph journo or blogger it's still a fair point.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on August 22, 2021, 10:44:55 PM
Torygraph journo or blogger it's still a fair point.
I think it demonstrates a lack of imagination personally.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on August 22, 2021, 10:47:39 PM
I think it demonstrates a lack of imagination personally.

Well yes. It's a factual comment rather than an imaginary scenario.... like jemmied shutters, for example.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on August 22, 2021, 11:01:38 PM
Well yes. It's a factual comment rather than an imaginary scenario.... like jemmied shutters, for example.
No, it’s an opinion piece written by someone who has never tried removing a child via a that apartment window.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: misty on August 22, 2021, 11:12:07 PM
Writing letters to the German press seems to be a growing trend amongst German convicts...

https://www.bild.de/regional/bremen/bremen-aktuell/frankreich-hat-maskenmann-martin-ney-einen-weiteren-jungen-getoetet-77442942.bild.html

"Masked man" writes a lamentable letter about his fellow inmate

08/20/2021 - 7:26 pm
Bremen / Nantes - Is "mask man" Martin Ney (50) also responsible for the death of a boy in France? Now Ney rejects the suspicion of murder in the Jonathan case in a letter to the news magazine "Spiegel". It is the first time that the serial offender expresses himself publicly.

In the letter to the “Spiegel”, the 50-year-old describes his former inmate Mario T., on whose testimony the suspicion of murder against Ney is based, as a traumatized person and asks whether his “entire testimony is completely pathological”. He had "a certain understanding that one should include him as a" suspect in the investigation "due to the undoubtedly existing similarities in the commission of the crime. However, he is innocent.
The child murderer, who killed three boys between 1992 and 2001 and was extradited to France, is strongly suspected of having killed eleven-year-old Jonathan Coulom around 17 years ago. The Nantes public prosecutor is investigating this suspicion of murder against Ney, who was serving his sentence in the Celle prison until his extradition in January.
Martin Ney is said to have kidnapped the student on the night of April 7, 2004 from a school camp in the coastal town of Saint-Brevin-les-Pins (Loire-Atlantique) in the Cher region.

A month later, the fifth grader was discovered in the north-western municipality of Guérande, 30 kilometers away: his naked body, weighted down with stones, was lying in a pond.
The Stade district court had the "mask man" who, after his arrest in 2011, confessed to the murder of Dennis Klein († 9), Dennis Rostel († 8) and Stefan Jahr († 13) and the sexual abuse of 40 other minors, for a lifetime Sentenced to imprisonment. With a dark outfit and a balaclava, Ney had appeared in country homes and tent camps, among others.

According to the European arrest warrant with which the French judiciary obtained Ney's extradition, the suspicion of murder is also based on incriminating statements by Ney's former inmate in Celle, Mario T., who had claimed in several testimony in 2017 that Ney had confessed to him in five other unsolved murders of minors, including an act in France.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm pretty convinced BKA are waiting for Ney to be returned to Germany, after his trial in France, before they question Brueckner.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on August 22, 2021, 11:18:08 PM
Yes, and Brückner’s friends call him ‘the climber’.

I'm sure he would have needed climbing skills for ingress and egress via the widow which was later covered by a metal grill.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on August 22, 2021, 11:22:01 PM
Which laws of physics does it defy?
On the MS podcast series there’s an experienced, now retired, former UK detective who explains it based on the height of the window and it’s width plus factor in carrying a sleeping (or waking) 3 year old! IMO it didn’t happen!
Put it this way:  if the rest of the apartment was on fire and you had to remove an unconscious or sleeping child from the bedroom but the only way in or out was via the window, would the child simply have to burn to death because of the height and width factor of the window?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on August 23, 2021, 01:36:47 AM
On the MS podcast series there’s an experienced, now retired, former UK detective who explains it based on the height of the window and it’s width plus factor in carrying a sleeping (or waking) 3 year old! IMO it didn’t happen!
Put it this way:  if the rest of the apartment was on fire and you had to remove an unconscious or sleeping child from the bedroom but the only way in or out was via the window, would the child simply have to burn to death because of the height and width factor of the window?

There are loads of reports of children being thrown out of windows of burning buildings.

Mother throws children to safety from burning building in Istanbul

Children unhurt after falling from third floor, and woman later discharged from hospital
(https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/f54bcffae7c02fa043560ef7fb66552874c56a0e/60_0_1800_1080/master/1800.jpg?width=700&quality=85&auto=format&fit=max&s=a5c9167c0b2a3cea1c00c148660b2da2)

It certainly can be done.
As an aside, the aperture from which these children were thrown looks only slightly wider than the 5A window when opened.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on August 23, 2021, 02:00:00 AM
Well of course Madeleine could have been thrown out of the window before the abductor climbed out without leaving a trace of such an act!! I wonder why they didn't just use the unlocked door though?!!! I'd also suspect a sleeping child being thrown from a metre height would (a) wake up (b) suffer traumatic injuries and (c) leave some forensic evidence.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on August 23, 2021, 03:12:09 AM
Well of course Madeleine could have been thrown out of the window before the abductor climbed out without leaving a trace of such an act!! I wonder why they didn't just use the unlocked door though?!!! I'd also suspect a sleeping child being thrown from a metre height would (a) wake up (b) suffer traumatic injuries and (c) leave some forensic evidence.

Please don't be so silly.

The debating point was made that in a desperate situation people can be forced into doing desperate things.

Absolutely no-one suggested that anyone threw Madeleine out of the window.  It has been suggested that she may have been passed through the window to an accomplice waiting outside, indeed it was one of the scenarios looked at when Rebelo took over the investigation.

The truth is no-one knows knows how Madeleine left the apartment and no-one knows why the window was open and the shutter raised.

I cannot quite take in the obduracy with which you post about matters long gone past which mean nothing in relation to the present investigation and where we are today.

The investigation never stalled in the time warp of 2007 it moved on.  It did so unaware of the information available to the Portuguese in 2007 which they never used.  It took on a head of steam when publicity stemming from Madeleine's parents caused Brueckner to drop his guard and raise suspicions which were reported to the German police. And this is where we are at today.

Nobody is listening to sceptics and their libellous conspiracy theories - they are far more interested in where Brueckner was in 2007 and in what he was doing.
In fourteen years scepticism has moved nothing forward, the answer is in the here and now.  I wish the present investigators well in their attempts to find out what happened to Madeleine.  Maybe you should be thinking about why sceptics hate the very thought of that with every fibre of their being because if ever there was a mystery, that is it.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on August 23, 2021, 07:26:16 AM
Well of course Madeleine could have been thrown out of the window before the abductor climbed out without leaving a trace of such an act!! I wonder why they didn't just use the unlocked door though?!!! I'd also suspect a sleeping child being thrown from a metre height would (a) wake up (b) suffer traumatic injuries and (c) leave some forensic evidence.
She wouldn’t have to have been thrown.  Placed gently would do it. Onto the ground outside or into the arms of an accomplice.   And yes she might have awakened but she might also have been sleepy, confused, questioing rather than screaming her head off immediately.  She might have stayed asleep. She may have been reassured or been gagged.  She may have whimpered or even yelled unheard as she was taken away.  All possibilities, none can be ruled out and imo no one can say definitively that the window was an impossible route into or out of the apartment for a potential abductor.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Lace on August 23, 2021, 08:50:47 AM
The burglar wasn't carrying a child that was nearly four years old.

I know that.  I was pointing out that a man could get through the window.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: misty on August 23, 2021, 12:36:41 PM
Someone is getting agitated...

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/15940617/ex-madeleine-mccann-cop-blames-parents/
Katie Davis
11:25, 23 Aug 2021Updated: 11:54, 23 Aug 2021
THE ex-cop who led the Madeleine McCann investigation before being fired has blamed her parents for her disappearance as he claimed suspect Christian B is innocent.

Shameless Goncalo Amaral has repeatedly made unfounded allegations that Gerry and Kate McCann killed their daughter - and has now insisted he believes the kidnapping was "only simulated".
The retired detective led the initial hunt when three-year-old Madeleine went missing from the Ocean Club holiday complex in Praia da Luz, Portugal, on May 3, 2007, and made her devastated parents official suspects.

He was removed as head of the investigation after criticising British detectives and claiming they were only following leads the McCanns asked them to pursue.

Amaral has remained outspoken on the case, and has now claimed prime suspect Christian B had "nothing to do with Maddie's disappearance" in an interview with BILD for the documentary, The Maddie McCann Case.

"It wouldn't be the first time a case has been solved by constructing a suspect," he told the outlet.


"The main culprits for the disappearance are those who had custody: the parents.

"The German public prosecutor shouldn't keep saying that he has something against (Christian B) in his hand.

"Then accuse him! Take him to court! And explain to me how someone broke into the apartment without leaving fingerprints or gloves!"

Amaral has also wildly claimed he believes the crime scene was faked.

"To this day I have no doubt that a kidnapping was only simulated," he told BILD.

"The signs of this: a window that no one could tell for sure whether it was open or closed. We were told that the alleged kidnapper climbed in and out of there.

"There were fingerprints of the mother showing that she opened the window. They were the only ones that were found."

But prosecutor Hans Christian Wolters has dismissed Amaral's claims, branding them "completely irrelevant".

"We are not interested in the opinion of a Portuguese ex-police officer," he said.

"We assume that he does not have our files.

"Therefore, his conclusions are completely irrelevant."

LEGAL BATTLE
Amaral previously released a book three days after the case was closed in 2008 called The Truth Of The Lie in which he cruelly alleged the McCanns faked Maddie's abduction to cover their tracks after she had been accidentally killed.

And he later took part in a documentary for Portuguese television in which he claimed that Madeleine was dead, there had been no abduction and the McCanns had hidden her body.

Gerry and Kate launched a legal battle against the ex-cop for his slurs in book after losing a case on appeal.

They lodged a fresh case at the European Court of Human Rights in 2017.

It comes after shocking photos revealed the “secret cellar lair” suspect Christian B dug underneath his German home.

Cops swooped on the rundown house in central Germany where the convicted paedophile had lived after the current tenant raised the alarm.

Christian B had lived at the home on the outskirts of Braunschweig when he ran a kiosk in the city between 2013 and 2016.

We are not interested in the opinion of a Portuguese ex-police officer. His conclusions are completely irrelevant.

Hans Christian Wolters
While living there he is said to have illegally dug a 10ft deep pit.

It was reported last year a pal of Christian B’s had claimed he wanted to build a dungeon, complete with soundproof walls, “like the guy in Austria,” in a disturbing reference to the evil Josef Fritzl.

There is no evidence though that he actually followed through with the idea.

German officials are continuing to compile evidence against Christian B, who became the prime suspect in Madeleine's disappearance in June 2020.

They believe the toddler was murdered.

Christian B branded the investigation against him as “scandalous” in a letter penned from his cell in May.

In the letter he claimed the public prosecutor had “brought shame to the legal system”.

He has constantly refused to speak to the cops or investigators about Maddie’s disappearance.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The original interview with Bild is behind a paywall.
https://www.bild.de/bild-plus/news/ausland/news-ausland/vorwuerfe-vom-ex-kripochef-maddies-entfuehrung-wurde-simuliert-77460112,view=conversionToLogin.bild.html#remId=1684228635530202683%3FjsRedirec
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on August 23, 2021, 12:41:17 PM
But prosecutor Hans Christian Wolters has dismissed Amaral's claims, branding them "completely irrelevant".

"We are not interested in the opinion of a Portuguese ex-police officer," he said.

"We assume that he does not have our files.

"Therefore, his conclusions are completely irrelevant.

 8((()*/
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: jassi on August 23, 2021, 01:13:41 PM
Someone is getting agitated...

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/15940617/ex-madeleine-mccann-cop-blames-parents/
Katie Davis
11:25, 23 Aug 2021Updated: 11:54, 23 Aug 2021
THE ex-cop who led the Madeleine McCann investigation before being fired has blamed her parents for her disappearance as he claimed suspect Christian B is innocent.

Shameless Goncalo Amaral has repeatedly made unfounded allegations that Gerry and Kate McCann killed their daughter - and has now insisted he believes the kidnapping was "only simulated".
The retired detective led the initial hunt when three-year-old Madeleine went missing from the Ocean Club holiday complex in Praia da Luz, Portugal, on May 3, 2007, and made her devastated parents official suspects.

He was removed as head of the investigation after criticising British detectives and claiming they were only following leads the McCanns asked them to pursue.

Amaral has remained outspoken on the case, and has now claimed prime suspect Christian B had "nothing to do with Maddie's disappearance" in an interview with BILD for the documentary, The Maddie McCann Case.

"It wouldn't be the first time a case has been solved by constructing a suspect," he told the outlet.


"The main culprits for the disappearance are those who had custody: the parents.

"The German public prosecutor shouldn't keep saying that he has something against (Christian B) in his hand.

"Then accuse him! Take him to court! And explain to me how someone broke into the apartment without leaving fingerprints or gloves!"

Amaral has also wildly claimed he believes the crime scene was faked.

"To this day I have no doubt that a kidnapping was only simulated," he told BILD.

"The signs of this: a window that no one could tell for sure whether it was open or closed. We were told that the alleged kidnapper climbed in and out of there.

"There were fingerprints of the mother showing that she opened the window. They were the only ones that were found."

But prosecutor Hans Christian Wolters has dismissed Amaral's claims, branding them "completely irrelevant".

"We are not interested in the opinion of a Portuguese ex-police officer," he said.

"We assume that he does not have our files.

"Therefore, his conclusions are completely irrelevant."

LEGAL BATTLE
Amaral previously released a book three days after the case was closed in 2008 called The Truth Of The Lie in which he cruelly alleged the McCanns faked Maddie's abduction to cover their tracks after she had been accidentally killed.

And he later took part in a documentary for Portuguese television in which he claimed that Madeleine was dead, there had been no abduction and the McCanns had hidden her body.

Gerry and Kate launched a legal battle against the ex-cop for his slurs in book after losing a case on appeal.

They lodged a fresh case at the European Court of Human Rights in 2017.

It comes after shocking photos revealed the “secret cellar lair” suspect Christian B dug underneath his German home.

Cops swooped on the rundown house in central Germany where the convicted paedophile had lived after the current tenant raised the alarm.

Christian B had lived at the home on the outskirts of Braunschweig when he ran a kiosk in the city between 2013 and 2016.

We are not interested in the opinion of a Portuguese ex-police officer. His conclusions are completely irrelevant.

Hans Christian Wolters
While living there he is said to have illegally dug a 10ft deep pit.

It was reported last year a pal of Christian B’s had claimed he wanted to build a dungeon, complete with soundproof walls, “like the guy in Austria,” in a disturbing reference to the evil Josef Fritzl.

There is no evidence though that he actually followed through with the idea.

German officials are continuing to compile evidence against Christian B, who became the prime suspect in Madeleine's disappearance in June 2020.

They believe the toddler was murdered.

Christian B branded the investigation against him as “scandalous” in a letter penned from his cell in May.

In the letter he claimed the public prosecutor had “brought shame to the legal system”.

He has constantly refused to speak to the cops or investigators about Maddie’s disappearance.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The original interview with Bild is behind a paywall.
https://www.bild.de/bild-plus/news/ausland/news-ausland/vorwuerfe-vom-ex-kripochef-maddies-entfuehrung-wurde-simuliert-77460112,view=conversionToLogin.bild.html#remId=1684228635530202683%3FjsRedirec

Media should really know better by now that the ECHR case is against Portugal.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on August 23, 2021, 01:16:52 PM
She wouldn’t have to have been thrown.  Placed gently would do it. Onto the ground outside or into the arms of an accomplice.   And yes she might have awakened but she might also have been sleepy, confused, questioing rather than screaming her head off immediately.  She might have stayed asleep. She may have been reassured or been gagged.  She may have whimpered or even yelled unheard as she was taken away.  All possibilities, none can be ruled out and imo no one can say definitively that the window was an impossible route into or out of the apartment for a potential abductor.

I would accept possible with an accomplice but not placing her down outside from the inside by one person. Well technically it’s possible but highly unlikely imo and furthermore there was no evidence to support this scenario.

Why incidentally do you believe talk of jemmied shutters were reported by friends and family of Madeleine?
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on August 23, 2021, 01:17:42 PM
Someone is getting agitated...

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/15940617/ex-madeleine-mccann-cop-blames-parents/
Katie Davis
11:25, 23 Aug 2021Updated: 11:54, 23 Aug 2021
THE ex-cop who led the Madeleine McCann investigation before being fired has blamed her parents for her disappearance as he claimed suspect Christian B is innocent.

Shameless Goncalo Amaral has repeatedly made unfounded allegations that Gerry and Kate McCann killed their daughter - and has now insisted he believes the kidnapping was "only simulated".

The retired detective led the initial hunt when three-year-old Madeleine went missing from the Ocean Club holiday complex in Praia da Luz, Portugal, on May 3, 2007, and made her devastated parents official suspects.

He was removed as head of the investigation after criticising British detectives and claiming they were only following leads the McCanns asked them to pursue.

Amaral has remained outspoken on the case, and has now claimed prime suspect Christian B had "nothing to do with Maddie's disappearance" in an interview with BILD for the documentary, The Maddie McCann Case.

"It wouldn't be the first time a case has been solved by constructing a suspect," he told the outlet.


"The main culprits for the disappearance are those who had custody: the parents.

"The German public prosecutor shouldn't keep saying that he has something against (Christian B) in his hand.

"Then accuse him! Take him to court! And explain to me how someone broke into the apartment without leaving fingerprints or gloves!"

Amaral has also wildly claimed he believes the crime scene was faked.

"To this day I have no doubt that a kidnapping was only simulated," he told BILD.

"The signs of this: a window that no one could tell for sure whether it was open or closed. We were told that the alleged kidnapper climbed in and out of there.

"There were fingerprints of the mother showing that she opened the window. They were the only ones that were found."

But prosecutor Hans Christian Wolters has dismissed Amaral's claims, branding them "completely irrelevant".

"We are not interested in the opinion of a Portuguese ex-police officer," he said.

"We assume that he does not have our files.

"Therefore, his conclusions are completely irrelevant."

LEGAL BATTLE
Amaral previously released a book three days after the case was closed in 2008 called The Truth Of The Lie in which he cruelly alleged the McCanns faked Maddie's abduction to cover their tracks after she had been accidentally killed.

And he later took part in a documentary for Portuguese television in which he claimed that Madeleine was dead, there had been no abduction and the McCanns had hidden her body.

Gerry and Kate launched a legal battle against the ex-cop for his slurs in book after losing a case on appeal.

They lodged a fresh case at the European Court of Human Rights in 2017.

It comes after shocking photos revealed the “secret cellar lair” suspect Christian B dug underneath his German home.

Cops swooped on the rundown house in central Germany where the convicted paedophile had lived after the current tenant raised the alarm.

Christian B had lived at the home on the outskirts of Braunschweig when he ran a kiosk in the city between 2013 and 2016.

We are not interested in the opinion of a Portuguese ex-police officer. His conclusions are completely irrelevant.

Hans Christian Wolters
While living there he is said to have illegally dug a 10ft deep pit.

It was reported last year a pal of Christian B’s had claimed he wanted to build a dungeon, complete with soundproof walls, “like the guy in Austria,” in a disturbing reference to the evil Josef Fritzl.

There is no evidence though that he actually followed through with the idea.

German officials are continuing to compile evidence against Christian B, who became the prime suspect in Madeleine's disappearance in June 2020.

They believe the toddler was murdered.

Christian B branded the investigation against him as “scandalous” in a letter penned from his cell in May.

In the letter he claimed the public prosecutor had “brought shame to the legal system”.

He has constantly refused to speak to the cops or investigators about Maddie’s disappearance.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The original interview with Bild is behind a paywall.
https://www.bild.de/bild-plus/news/ausland/news-ausland/vorwuerfe-vom-ex-kripochef-maddies-entfuehrung-wurde-simuliert-77460112,view=conversionToLogin.bild.html#remId=1684228635530202683%3FjsRedirec

Blah blah blah! More incorrect stories and blatent speculation from the Sun.

Amaral has never alleged that they killed their daughter, and a simulated kidnapping is not a new suggestion.

Clearly Amaral isn't (as some have suggested) keeping quiet, he's quite happy to speak out still. The ball is firmly in Wolter's court to uphold his accusations of murder against CB.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on August 23, 2021, 01:36:11 PM
I would accept possible with an accomplice but not placing her down outside from the inside by one person. Well technically it’s possible but highly unlikely imo and furthermore there was no evidence to support this scenario.

Why incidentally do you believe talk of jemmied shutters were reported by friends and family of Madeleine?
I don't know and I don't really care - it's entirely irrelevant IMO and almost certainly down to a misunderstanding on the part of the teller or the told when recounting events.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on August 23, 2021, 01:37:54 PM
Blah blah blah! More incorrect stories and blatent speculation from the Sun.

Amaral has never alleged that they killed their daughter, and a simulated kidnapping is not a new suggestion.

Clearly Amaral isn't (as some have suggested) keeping quiet, he's quite happy to speak out still. The ball is firmly in Wolter's court to uphold his accusations of murder against CB.
He's alleged they over-sedated her which led to her accidental death - that would be manslaughter would it not?
Meaning of manslaughter in English
the crime of killing a person when the killer did not intend to do it or cannot be responsible for his or her actions:
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 23, 2021, 01:38:24 PM
You can if the round pig's circumference is small enough.
Like a piglet.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: misty on August 23, 2021, 03:16:06 PM
Blah blah blah! More incorrect stories and blatent speculation from the Sun.

Amaral has never alleged that they killed their daughter, and a simulated kidnapping is not a new suggestion.

Clearly Amaral isn't (as some have suggested) keeping quiet, he's quite happy to speak out still. The ball is firmly in Wolter's court to uphold his accusations of murder against CB.

We will all be able to hear exactly what he said on the upcoming Bild documentary.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Davel on August 23, 2021, 03:20:29 PM
Blah blah blah! More incorrect stories and blatent speculation from the Sun.

Amaral has never alleged that they killed their daughter, and a simulated kidnapping is not a new suggestion.

Clearly Amaral isn't (as some have suggested) keeping quiet, he's quite happy to speak out still. The ball is firmly in Wolter's court to uphold his accusations of murder against CB.

What is he saying... CB is a patsy and the mccanns are responsible for maddies disappearance.... Cant you see thst none of thst is libel
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on August 23, 2021, 03:51:12 PM
We will all be able to hear exactly what he said on the upcoming Bild documentary.
I hope the McCanns sue him all over again.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Davel on August 23, 2021, 04:13:27 PM
I hope the McCanns sue him all over again.

He may well know that if the McCanns are successful at the ECHR they can ask for the original case to be opened again.... And yet some posters think the ECHR case is nothing to do with Amaral
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Davel on August 23, 2021, 04:41:12 PM
Blah blah blah! More incorrect stories and blatent speculation from the Sun.

Amaral has never alleged that they killed their daughter, and a simulated kidnapping is not a new suggestion.

Clearly Amaral isn't (as some have suggested) keeping quiet, he's quite happy to speak out still. The ball is firmly in Wolter's court to uphold his accusations of murder against CB.

Amaral has stopped accusing the parents but im not surprised you cant see it. All he says re the parents here is that the parents were responsible for her disappearance... That could be argued is true as they left the children alone
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on August 23, 2021, 04:50:02 PM
Amaral has stopped accusing the parents but im not surprised you cant see it. All he says re the parents here is that the parents were responsible for her disappearance... That could be argued is true as they left the children alone
He’s openly accused them of faking an abduction.  I think he’s not very bright, especially when you look at the evidence he puts forward for the supposed fake abduction. 
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on August 23, 2021, 05:25:24 PM
Madeleine McCann suspect evaded police by ‘not being at home’
June 07 2020, 12.00pm
The chief suspect in Madeleine McCann’s disappearance was not questioned by police at the time because he was not at home when detectives called, the former head of the investigation has indicated.

He had fled to the Algarve from Germany in 1995 to avoid prosecution for child abuse offences. German police began investigating Brückner over Madeleine’s disappearance in 2019 after his conviction for raping a 72-year-old American woman near Praia da Luz in 2005, roughly 20 months before Madeleine went missing.

The former detective admitted his own failings in initially treating Madeleine’s disappearance “as if something had been stolen”. “The investigation should have been more comprehensive, like a murder: securing biological traces, fibres, hair,” he said. “That was a mistake.”

Amaral, 61, told Bild that Brückner “has nothing to do with Maddie’s disappearance”. He has previously claimed that Madeleine’s parents, Kate and Gerry McCann, both 53, from Rothley, Leicestershire, were suspects.

Madeleine McCann went missing in June 2007, aged three
Madeleine McCann went missing in June 2007, aged three

ALAMY

“The German prosecutor should not keep claiming that he has something on Brückner,” he said. “Then charge him. Take him to court. And explain to me how someone broke into the flat without leaving fingerprints or traces of gloves. That way it only serves the construction, so people will say: what a monster this Brückner is.”

Yesterday Hans Christian Wolters, a German prosecutor involved in Bruckner’s case, criticised the “very time-consuming requests” for information from Portugal.

“We still do not wish to comment on Mr Amaral’s statements because we assume that [he] has no knowledge of the current state of the investigation and that his statements are therefore completely irrelevant to us,” he said.

“I do not believe there is the slightest hint of suspicion against the McCann parents. The investigations are still continuing. I do not want to give any details about exactly which investigations are currently taking place.

“Unfortunately, the investigations cannot be speeded up, in particular due to the mandatory but very time-consuming requests for legal assistance to Portugal.”

Friedrich Fülscher, Brückner’s lawyer, declined to comment, as did the McCanns.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on August 23, 2021, 05:29:03 PM
A comment under the article in the Times which sums up my feelings exactly

E
Eliza D
11 MINUTES AGO

Excuse my French but Mr Amaral sounds like an absolute tit.

He is just deflecting from his own damning failings. The truth is if competent police officers had been involved from the very start I am certain this case would have been solved by now, if not back in 2007.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on August 23, 2021, 05:31:21 PM
The former detective admitted his own failings in initially treating Madeleine’s disappearance “as if something had been stolen”. “The investigation should have been more comprehensive, like a murder: securing biological traces, fibres, hair,” he said. “That was a mistake.”
No mate, that wasn’t a mistake, it was professional incompetence of the highest order.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on August 23, 2021, 05:33:20 PM
So he admits they fked up the forensics and then says there’s no evidence of an abduction.   Dimmer than a 20 watt bulb that man IMO.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: barrier on August 23, 2021, 06:25:54 PM
What is he saying... CB is a patsy and the mccanns are responsible for maddies disappearance.... Cant you see thst none of thst is libel

The case isn't even considered a noteworthy pending on the echr site with others being communicated back in 2017 being as such, there's a long wait yet imo.
Seek and you will find.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Davel on August 23, 2021, 07:03:57 PM
The case isn't even considered a noteworthy pending on the echr site with others being communicated back in 2017 being as such, there's a long wait yet imo.
Seek and you will find.
Perhaps the Portuguese are dragging their heels.. Im in no hurry
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: barrier on August 23, 2021, 07:07:42 PM
Perhaps the Portuguese are dragging their heels.. Im in no hurry

Time and tide wait on no one.

Wasn't there time limits on responses, but none the less, there's a backlog.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Davel on August 23, 2021, 07:11:44 PM
The former detective admitted his own failings in initially treating Madeleine’s disappearance “as if something had been stolen”. “The investigation should have been more comprehensive, like a murder: securing biological traces, fibres, hair,” he said. “That was a mistake.”
No mate, that wasn’t a mistake, it was professional incompetence of the highest order.
Interesting.. In the Susan Pillay case it was claimed she was murdered in the basement... Yet not one fibre... Nothing found. Havent heard the sceptics claiming it didnt happen
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on August 23, 2021, 07:31:02 PM
The case isn't even considered a noteworthy pending on the echr site with others being communicated back in 2017 being as such, there's a long wait yet imo.
Seek and you will find.

The one thing that Amaral is pretty good at is keeping his nose to the ground in the interest of self preservation.

Just as he continued to mouth off to rubbish the German investigation when the realisation hit him that he should be feeling a bit hot under the collar as his incompetence is gone over one more time..

Remember the lies he told.

I think he's got wind of the ECHR beginning to move and he is irrelevantly getting his oar in first.  Wonder how much he was paid for his irrelevant role in the documentary as he sees his cash cow hightailing it out of his field.

Watch the ECHR space.
I don't think it can be long now before he will be relevant yet again - briefly - and probably for the last time.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Davel on August 23, 2021, 07:51:03 PM
Time and tide wait on no one.

Wasn't there time limits on responses, but none the less, there's a backlog.

There are time limits on responses and the Portuguese may be taking advantages of every one. The dispute is described as covered by existing case law... If thats the case and the Portuguese are in the clear then imo it would have been thrown out by now
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on August 23, 2021, 08:12:31 PM
I don't know if there is current relevance (there's that word again 🤐) to Madeleine's case.

But it did bring to mind some of the thoughts that dear Sadie brought to the debate.

I was googling for something else;  and as one does came across something entirely different which interested me for a variety of reasons not least of which was the time span of his Portuguese residency.German paedophile suspect arrested in Portugal
Lisbon police said on Sunday they have arrested a German man, wanted in Germany on suspicion of paedophilia.

29 June 2008
Acting on a European arrest warrant from German police, their Portuguese counterparts “detained a German citizen suspected of paedophile practices abroad,” according to a police statement.

Police did not identify the suspect, but Portuguese newspapers named the man on Sunday as Ulrich Schulz, a 59-year-old New Age musician known by his stage name, Oliver Shanti, whose music has been included in two of the popular Buddha Bar compilations.

Police said the man had been a regular visitor to Portugal for more than five years and would be taken before a court in Lisbon, before his likely handover to German authorities.

The Portuguese news agency Lusa said the man is suspected of more than 100 pedophile crimes committed on young members of a sect he formed in Bavaria in the 1980s.

He later set up home in the village of Vila Nova de Cerveira in northern Portugal which in 1994 honored him with a medal in recognition of his contribution to the local community.

“At the time, we could not imagine that this man could be suspected of paedophile acts,” said the Vila Nova mayor, Jose Manuel Carpinteira, pointing out that the musician had donated several vehicles to local emergency services.
https://www.thelocal.de/20080629/12779/
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: jassi on August 23, 2021, 08:13:33 PM
The one thing that Amaral is pretty good at is keeping his nose to the ground in the interest of self preservation.

Just as he continued to mouth off to rubbish the German investigation when the realisation hit him that he should be feeling a bit hot under the collar as his incompetence is gone over one more time..

Remember the lies he told.

I think he's got wind of the ECHR beginning to move and he is irrelevantly getting his oar in first.  Wonder how much he was paid for his irrelevant role in the documentary as he sees his cash cow hightailing it out of his field.

Watch the ECHR space.
I don't think it can be long now
before he will be relevant yet again - briefly - and probably for the last time.

Ooh I do hope so, but you know how it is - maybe this year, maybe next.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: faithlilly on August 24, 2021, 12:45:47 AM
Nothing new here, move along please.Dated Nov 20.

Maddie McCann suspect 'to be moved to former Gestapo jail before interrogation'
German paedophile Christian Brueckner, who is suspected of abducting and killing Madeleine McCann, will be moved to the Wolfenbuttel or Celle maximum security prison in January, it is reported


https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/maddie-mccann-suspect-to-moved-23091982

I suspect that they’ve taken the long route to the new jail.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: barrier on August 24, 2021, 06:02:06 AM
There are time limits on responses and the Portuguese may be taking advantages of every one. The dispute is described as covered by existing case law... If thats the case and the Portuguese are in the clear then imo it would have been thrown out by now
Well be nearing the Autumn of 2022 and you'll still be using the same argument,then the year after, then year after.....
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: barrier on August 24, 2021, 06:03:26 AM
I suspect that they’ve taken the long route to the new jail.
Supertramp, Take the long home.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on August 24, 2021, 07:57:31 AM
Supertramp, Take the long home.
you’ve lost your way.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on November 10, 2021, 09:20:23 AM
Cleo Smith trolls have slithered under a rock…for now
Jane Moore
21:47, 9 Nov 2021

THE abduction of Cleo Smith from a family camping holiday in Australia has been likened to the case of Madeleine McCann.

Except, of course, four-year-old Cleo was found safe and well after 18 days while, 14 years on, the agony still endures for Madeleine’s parents Kate and Gerry.

But one deeply unwelcome similarity between the two cases was the rush by online trolls to heap blame on the already distraught parents — either by implicating them in their own child’s disappearance or accusing them of not watching her closely enough.

Despite the early-on insistence of Aussie detectives that they were not treating Cleo’s mum Ellie and stepfather Jake Gliddon as suspects, online forums rapidly started filling up with conspiracy theories.

Some of these “internet sleuths” were genuinely wanting to help, some were stirring the pot of suspicion with claims that there were “discrepancies” in the couple’s account, and some were just plain nasty.

And just like the McCanns, laced through it all were the same old tropes about how they just didn’t seem distressed enough to be the parents of a missing child.


It’s called shock and paralysing terror, you dimbos.

“I just don’t get why some people, when they get a keyboard, say the most horrible and shocking things that they would never say otherwise,” says Mark McGowan, premier of Western Australia.

But one deeply unwelcome similarity between the two cases was the rush by online trolls to heap blame on the already distraught parents — either by implicating them in their own child’s disappearance or accusing them of not watching her closely enough.

Despite the early-on insistence of Aussie detectives that they were not treating Cleo’s mum Ellie and stepfather Jake Gliddon as suspects, online forums rapidly started filling up with conspiracy theories.

Some of these “internet sleuths” were genuinely wanting to help, some were stirring the pot of suspicion with claims that there were “discrepancies” in the couple’s account, and some were just plain nasty.

And just like the McCanns, laced through it all were the same old tropes about how they just didn’t seem distressed enough to be the parents of a missing child.


It’s called shock and paralysing terror, you dimbos.

“I just don’t get why some people, when they get a keyboard, say the most horrible and shocking things that they would never say otherwise,” says Mark McGowan, premier of Western Australia.

Because they can do so with impunity, that’s why.

And until everyone has to be identifiable when they post comments, innocent people like Cleo’s parents and the McCanns will continue to bear the brunt of other people’s inadequacies.

Thankfully, Cleo was eventually found alive and well at the home of her suspected abductor 45 miles away, and the tables turned on the ghastly trolls.

“Let’s hope the conspiracy theorists who have posted vile accusations against her parents now offer a public apology,” tweeted one local journalist who worked on the case.

Except they won’t, of course. They’ll just slither back under the largely anonymous rock from whence they crawled to await their next victim.

Deputy Commissioner Col Blanch said: “We cautioned early on about internet detectives.

"Police were doing their work and sifting through it. I think what’s happened here today is a strong reminder, don’t judge too quickly.”

Hear hear.

The superb Netflix documentary Don’t F*** With Cats shows that, done correctly, the modern phenomenon of internet sleuths can strike gold after meticulous research.

But this is the rare exception, rather than the rule, and the majority of conspiracy theorists go down a rabbit hole of self-importance, unsubstantiated rumour and partisan judgment.

It is unhelpful to the police and downright distressing to those whose loved ones are involved in the case.

Thankfully, Ellie and Jake have a happy ending to their terrifying ordeal. But for the McCanns, the agonising wait of knowing what happened to Maddie goes on and persistent trolls continue to spit bile in their direction.

Shame on them.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/16686903/cleo-smith-trolls-slithered-under-rock/
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on November 10, 2021, 09:31:46 AM
^^^ain’t it the truth^^^
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Lace on November 10, 2021, 10:01:46 AM
Cleo Smith trolls have slithered under a rock…for now
Jane Moore
21:47, 9 Nov 2021

THE abduction of Cleo Smith from a family camping holiday in Australia has been likened to the case of Madeleine McCann.

Except, of course, four-year-old Cleo was found safe and well after 18 days while, 14 years on, the agony still endures for Madeleine’s parents Kate and Gerry.

But one deeply unwelcome similarity between the two cases was the rush by online trolls to heap blame on the already distraught parents — either by implicating them in their own child’s disappearance or accusing them of not watching her closely enough.

Despite the early-on insistence of Aussie detectives that they were not treating Cleo’s mum Ellie and stepfather Jake Gliddon as suspects, online forums rapidly started filling up with conspiracy theories.

Some of these “internet sleuths” were genuinely wanting to help, some were stirring the pot of suspicion with claims that there were “discrepancies” in the couple’s account, and some were just plain nasty.

And just like the McCanns, laced through it all were the same old tropes about how they just didn’t seem distressed enough to be the parents of a missing child.


It’s called shock and paralysing terror, you dimbos.

“I just don’t get why some people, when they get a keyboard, say the most horrible and shocking things that they would never say otherwise,” says Mark McGowan, premier of Western Australia.

But one deeply unwelcome similarity between the two cases was the rush by online trolls to heap blame on the already distraught parents — either by implicating them in their own child’s disappearance or accusing them of not watching her closely enough.

Despite the early-on insistence of Aussie detectives that they were not treating Cleo’s mum Ellie and stepfather Jake Gliddon as suspects, online forums rapidly started filling up with conspiracy theories.

Some of these “internet sleuths” were genuinely wanting to help, some were stirring the pot of suspicion with claims that there were “discrepancies” in the couple’s account, and some were just plain nasty.

And just like the McCanns, laced through it all were the same old tropes about how they just didn’t seem distressed enough to be the parents of a missing child.


It’s called shock and paralysing terror, you dimbos.

“I just don’t get why some people, when they get a keyboard, say the most horrible and shocking things that they would never say otherwise,” says Mark McGowan, premier of Western Australia.

Because they can do so with impunity, that’s why.

And until everyone has to be identifiable when they post comments, innocent people like Cleo’s parents and the McCanns will continue to bear the brunt of other people’s inadequacies.

Thankfully, Cleo was eventually found alive and well at the home of her suspected abductor 45 miles away, and the tables turned on the ghastly trolls.

“Let’s hope the conspiracy theorists who have posted vile accusations against her parents now offer a public apology,” tweeted one local journalist who worked on the case.

Except they won’t, of course. They’ll just slither back under the largely anonymous rock from whence they crawled to await their next victim.

Deputy Commissioner Col Blanch said: “We cautioned early on about internet detectives.

"Police were doing their work and sifting through it. I think what’s happened here today is a strong reminder, don’t judge too quickly.”

Hear hear.

The superb Netflix documentary Don’t F*** With Cats shows that, done correctly, the modern phenomenon of internet sleuths can strike gold after meticulous research.

But this is the rare exception, rather than the rule, and the majority of conspiracy theorists go down a rabbit hole of self-importance, unsubstantiated rumour and partisan judgment.

It is unhelpful to the police and downright distressing to those whose loved ones are involved in the case.

Thankfully, Ellie and Jake have a happy ending to their terrifying ordeal. But for the McCanns, the agonising wait of knowing what happened to Maddie goes on and persistent trolls continue to spit bile in their direction.

Shame on them.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/16686903/cleo-smith-trolls-slithered-under-rock/

Very well said  8@??)(
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on November 10, 2021, 10:07:43 AM
^^^ain’t it the truth^^^

The thing is ~ it isn't done without malice aforethought.

It is done intentionally to cause harm and untold distress and there is something terribly sick about doing that.


The family friend had been at the campsite at the time Cleo went missing and helped scour the area in search of the four-year-old.

He said her distraught parents have also had to deal with online trolls who pointed the finger at them in the days following their daughter's disappearance.

Police have ruled out both Ms Smith and Mr Gliddon as suspects and Daily Mail Australia is not suggesting they had anything to do with her disappearance.

'I know it's affecting them. Fingers crossed they aren't looking at it too much,' the friend said.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10154095/Cleo-Smith-Grim-twist-police-sort-mountain-rubbish-clues.html

Cleo's parents had to suffer this for eighteen days, which is bad and bad enough.  They enjoyed the absolute support of the police who had ruled them out as one of the first diligences performed.

Madeleine's parents have suffered this type of filth for coming up on fifteen years now and much of it was orchestrated by Amaral and his team of corrupt officers and friends.

It is not only "SHAME ON THEM" such trolling behaviour is beneath contempt.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on November 10, 2021, 10:19:12 AM
Very well said  8@??)(

I agree Lace.

Many journalists have penned similar conclusions throughout but I don't think there is a true appreciation of how evil and rank this trolling is.

As well as the character assassination which has taken place of everyone who has the slightest connection to Madeleine's case, there are the deliberate and sustained attacks and campaigns with the object of disrupting and cancelling out any and all initiatives on behalf of Madeleine.

The latest being Amaral's transparent assault on the German led investigation.  Quite bizarre.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on November 10, 2021, 12:00:55 PM
Could Maddie McCann have been found like Cleo Smith?
7 Nov, 2021

The Telegraph's crime correspondent Martin Evans, who spent months reporting in Portugal on the Madeleine story, recalls how there was also seemingly "no strategy in place" at the inexperienced local force.

"The investigation was flawed from the very start as it was clear the police were totally out of their depth," Evans says. "They were unsure what they were even investigating for far too long – was it a missing person they were dealing with or an abduction? They had no idea."

During the Cleo investigation, a thorough and detailed land and sea search, involving helicopters and drones, was called off after a few days, leading local police, backed up by senior detectives flown in from Perth, to focus their resources solely on investigating the abduction theory.

In contrast, the Portuguese police led a chaotic, scatter-gun operation and spent weeks speculating Madeleine may have just wandered off, before slowly exploring other lines of inquiry.

Then came the extremely flawed "distractions" to the entire investigation, including the theory the McCanns had killed their own daughter and later placed her body in the boot of a hire car.

This harmful accusation, including declaring the parents "arguidos" (suspects), scuppered the chances of investigating local sex offenders and other vital lines of inquiry for some time.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/could-maddie-mccann-have-been-found-like-cleo-smith/Q3XQB5LCMZJTRI2BPDEPK22XVY/


After investigating and ruling everything else out, the Cleo police put all their resources together to concentrate on abduction.

They LOOKED for an abductor.

And guess what ~ they found one.

Not only that, they recovered Cleo safe and well while that outcome was still a possibility.

I think that is surely food for thought for every sceptic to take on board.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on November 10, 2021, 12:13:28 PM
It was NOTHING like the Madeleine McCann case.  Apart from a young girl went missing in the night whilst on holiday and asleep and disappeared apparently without trace, no forensics at all, only a zip left in a position the child could never have put it in (yeah, right!)  Oh, and the parents didn't emote enough.  And it's always the parents anyway so let's all point the finger at them straight away.  And then when she turned up alive, then obviously the parents hadn't done a McCann they'd done a Matthews instead.  Because one thing's for sure, judgey, sanctimonious, armchair sleuths always know best, until such a time as when their rubbish is proven to be false, then they rapidly change the subject.  See the thread about the case on  CMOMM for the proof of this.  I'm fairly certain one of two of them STILL think (and hope) that Cleo's parents were involved somehow.  Weirdos.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on November 10, 2021, 05:42:30 PM
From the Cesspit (as if to prove my point perfectly)

“I'm still struggling with the concept of Kelly (or accomplice) driving all that way, picking that campsite, selecting that tent and that compartment to whisk away a little girl and take her back to within miles of her own home.

Smacks of Sharon Matthews. A family member (or partner thereof) will be involved somewhere”.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on November 10, 2021, 06:49:33 PM
From the Cesspit (as if to prove my point perfectly)

“I'm still struggling with the concept of Kelly (or accomplice) driving all that way, picking that campsite, selecting that tent and that compartment to whisk away a little girl and take her back to within miles of her own home.

Smacks of Sharon Matthews. A family member (or partner thereof) will be involved somewhere”.

I think I read in a tabloid that after very gentle discussion with Cleo she seems to have indicated that there might have been a woman taking care of her while she was in the suspect's premises.

What on earth does the anonymous armchair detective mean by "driving all that way" in an Australian context?  I think anyone who is familiar with the vast expanse of the continent would find that risible.

Could the police have been any clearer in stressing the absolute non-involvement of Cleo's parents.  No wonder that the Amaral led police assault on Madeleine's parents has had such an effect.
Quite frankly until a few years ago I had no idea there was such stupidity being unashamedly advertised on the internet with recent events highlighting it even further.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Anthro on November 10, 2021, 08:40:20 PM
Hi Brietta, I think the woman referred to is the mother of the suspect. They lived together.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on November 10, 2021, 08:45:38 PM
Hi Brietta, I think the woman referred to is the mother of the suspect. They lived together.

Thanks, Anthro.

I thought his mum was dead.  Obviously not.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on November 11, 2021, 01:04:00 AM
Police reveal more charges may be laid in Cleo Smith case but dismiss claims a mystery woman is being investigated
https://www.news.com.au/national/western-australia/police-reveal-more-charges-could-be-laid-in-cleo-smith-case/news-story/0eb5e816fdd2322cfec63d5fc3d1d8cb

Link taken from 'Stop the Myths'
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on November 15, 2021, 10:44:15 AM
MADDIE MCCANN
FRIEND WHO WAS WATCHING THE MCCANN, AND HELPED THE GERMAN SUSPECT, CAN'T BE ARRESTED
Portuguese - who watched over the McCann and gave indications to the German suspect to have killed Maddie - did not commit any crime under Portuguese law.

Christian Brückner's friend who worked at the Ocean Club and who reportedly provided information about the McCann couple's routines cannot be punished.

According to the Correio da Manhã, in the light of Portuguese law, the man does not incur any sanction even if he knew that the German's goal was to rob the house where the English were.

Brückner's accomplice was Portuguese
The Portuguese and former tourist village employee revealed to authorities that he passed various information to his friend about the habits of English tourists, including Maddie's family. Brückner, who had previously been convicted of shoplifting and was referred to as sexual abuse, will have known through his friend that several tourists used to spend hours having dinner and left property in the apartments.

Leia mais em: https://www.vip.pt/maddie-mccann-amigo-que-vigiava-os-mccann-e-ajudou-o-suspeito-alemao-nao-pode-ser-preso

Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on November 15, 2021, 11:09:39 AM
MADDIE MCCANN
FRIEND WHO WAS WATCHING THE MCCANN, AND HELPED THE GERMAN SUSPECT, CAN'T BE ARRESTED
Portuguese - who watched over the McCann and gave indications to the German suspect to have killed Maddie - did not commit any crime under Portuguese law.

Christian Brückner's friend who worked at the Ocean Club and who reportedly provided information about the McCann couple's routines cannot be punished.

According to the Correio da Manhã, in the light of Portuguese law, the man does not incur any sanction even if he knew that the German's goal was to rob the house where the English were.

Brückner's accomplice was Portuguese
The Portuguese and former tourist village employee revealed to authorities that he passed various information to his friend about the habits of English tourists, including Maddie's family. Brückner, who had previously been convicted of shoplifting and was referred to as sexual abuse, will have known through his friend that several tourists used to spend hours having dinner and left property in the apartments.

Leia mais em: https://www.vip.pt/maddie-mccann-amigo-que-vigiava-os-mccann-e-ajudou-o-suspeito-alemao-nao-pode-ser-preso
This is shocking if true.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Brietta on November 15, 2021, 11:35:59 AM
This is shocking if true.

There are one or two Portuguese reports giving the same information which I've not had time to check out.  I think the primary source might well emanate from the recent (confidential) tripartite meeting but I'll have to look for it.

It would explain a lot about the slow pace of the investigation.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Carana on November 15, 2021, 11:39:23 AM
This is shocking if true.

Not a new theory, but the article seems a bit iffy and waffly. I think I'll wait for confirmation.
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Davel on November 15, 2021, 12:03:07 PM
MADDIE MCCANN
FRIEND WHO WAS WATCHING THE MCCANN, AND HELPED THE GERMAN SUSPECT, CAN'T BE ARRESTED
Portuguese - who watched over the McCann and gave indications to the German suspect to have killed Maddie - did not commit any crime under Portuguese law.

Christian Brückner's friend who worked at the Ocean Club and who reportedly provided information about the McCann couple's routines cannot be punished.

According to the Correio da Manhã, in the light of Portuguese law, the man does not incur any sanction even if he knew that the German's goal was to rob the house where the English were.

Brückner's accomplice was Portuguese
The Portuguese and former tourist village employee revealed to authorities that he passed various information to his friend about the habits of English tourists, including Maddie's family. Brückner, who had previously been convicted of shoplifting and was referred to as sexual abuse, will have known through his friend that several tourists used to spend hours having dinner and left property in the apartments.

Leia mais em: https://www.vip.pt/maddie-mccann-amigo-que-vigiava-os-mccann-e-ajudou-o-suspeito-alemao-nao-pode-ser-preso

This is just the sort of evidence... And more.. That Wolters could have. A statement from this friend could be useful
Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: G-Unit on November 15, 2021, 12:10:53 PM
Not a new theory, but the article seems a bit iffy and waffly. I think I'll wait for confirmation.

This rumour was being circulated by Correio de Manha (quoted in the linked article) as early as June 2020, so it could be just a repeat of that.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8399409/Police-identify-crooked-hotel-worker-tipped-Madeleine-prime-suspect-Christian-Brueckner.html

Title: Re: More recent events related to Madeleine McCann's case
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on November 15, 2021, 12:14:52 PM
This rumour was being circulated by Correio de Manha