Author Topic: Kyle Rittenhouse. Murder or Self Defence?  (Read 1525 times)

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Offline Wonderfulspam

Re: Kyle Rittenhouse. Murder or Self Defence?
« Reply #105 on: November 20, 2021, 11:10:32 AM »

Can they ?

Actually, I just read, No.

But the 'victims' (violent mob) will be launching a civil case.
Free Martin Brueckner

Offline Wonderfulspam

Re: Kyle Rittenhouse. Murder or Self Defence?
« Reply #106 on: November 24, 2021, 07:31:12 PM »

The guys who killed the black jogger have been found guilty on all charges.
Free Martin Brueckner

Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: Kyle Rittenhouse. Murder or Self Defence?
« Reply #107 on: November 24, 2021, 08:51:46 PM »
The guys who killed the black jogger have been found guilty on all charges.
Good.
ANGER MAKES US AWARE OF INJUSTICE
We often experience anger when we are denied rights or when faced with insults, disrespect, injustice, or exploitation. Anger serves as an internal guidance system that indicates something is not quite right, that someone has treated us unjustly or unfairly. Anger helps communicate to others: “You’d better treat me fairly; otherwise, you’ll pay a high cost.” On a global level, standing up for a lack of fairness can prevent people from taking advantage of others. This type of anger can bring about positive change in society and increase the social cost of misbehaving.
The value of anger https://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/value-of-anger-16-reasons-its-good-to-get-angry-0313175

Offline barrier

Re: Kyle Rittenhouse. Murder or Self Defence?
« Reply #108 on: November 25, 2021, 08:09:19 PM »
The guys who killed the black jogger have been found guilty on all charges.


Which I was surprised about, maybe the justice system does work in the US


And so I'm happy tonight. I'm not worried about anything. I'm not fearing any man!


Offline Wonderfulspam

Re: Kyle Rittenhouse. Murder or Self Defence?
« Reply #109 on: November 25, 2021, 08:42:41 PM »

Which I was surprised about, maybe the justice system does work in the US

It could have gone the other way, but for a few things.

Arbery had wrestled for Travis McMichael's gun, & if someone attempts to take your firearm you can use lethal force, because it can be assumed they could use the gun on you or others.

But, because they had no reasonable or lawful grounds to pursue or detain him (they never witnessed him commit a crime in that instance, although he was suspected of burglaries in the area previously), & because they never called the police they were pretty screwed in terms of defence.

If it hadn't been caught on video they might have had a better chance with arguing self defence.
Free Martin Brueckner

Offline Wonderfulspam

Re: Kyle Rittenhouse. Murder or Self Defence?
« Reply #110 on: November 25, 2021, 08:48:03 PM »

The guy who filmed the shooting released the footage voluntarily.

If he'd had the sense to have smashed the phone to bits & burnt it he probably wouldn't be starting a very long prison sentence right now.

Free Martin Brueckner

Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: Kyle Rittenhouse. Murder or Self Defence?
« Reply #111 on: November 25, 2021, 09:01:54 PM »
So let me get this straight:  In America, you can be chased throught the streets by a man with a gun and when you attempt to disarm him to prevent yourself from being shot and killed YOU are in the wrong and deserve to be shot?  Wow.  Great country.
ANGER MAKES US AWARE OF INJUSTICE
We often experience anger when we are denied rights or when faced with insults, disrespect, injustice, or exploitation. Anger serves as an internal guidance system that indicates something is not quite right, that someone has treated us unjustly or unfairly. Anger helps communicate to others: “You’d better treat me fairly; otherwise, you’ll pay a high cost.” On a global level, standing up for a lack of fairness can prevent people from taking advantage of others. This type of anger can bring about positive change in society and increase the social cost of misbehaving.
The value of anger https://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/value-of-anger-16-reasons-its-good-to-get-angry-0313175

Offline Wonderfulspam

Re: Kyle Rittenhouse. Murder or Self Defence?
« Reply #112 on: November 25, 2021, 09:14:46 PM »
So let me get this straight:  In America, you can be chased throught the streets by a man with a gun and when you attempt to disarm him to prevent yourself from being shot and killed YOU are in the wrong and deserve to be shot?  Wow.  Great country.

If you just witnessed someone committing a serious crime, legally in some states you could pursue the subject & attempt a citizens arrest, detain them until police arrive. Provided you, call the police, inform the subject of your intentions.

If, for example, Arbery had just stabbed a guy, dropped the knife & ran, or raped a woman, someone witnessed this happen then chased & tried to detain him, then he attempts to wrestle for the gun, the shooting could well have been justifiable.

But all Arbery was seen doing at that moment was running.

In the Rittenhouse case, had he been an active shooter, spraying bullets & mowing down innocent protesters with
glee, then any member of the public could have taken him out with a bullet to the head & faced no charges, but he wasn't, all the people he shot were attacking him & or attempting to disarm him, having not witnessed him commit a crime.
Free Martin Brueckner

Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: Kyle Rittenhouse. Murder or Self Defence?
« Reply #113 on: November 25, 2021, 09:38:34 PM »
If you just witnessed someone committing a serious crime, legally in some states you could pursue the subject & attempt a citizens arrest, detain them until police arrive. Provided you, call the police, inform the subject of your intentions.

If, for example, Arbery had just stabbed a guy, dropped the knife & ran, or raped a woman, someone witnessed this happen then chased & tried to detain him, then he attempts to wrestle for the gun, the shooting could well have been justifiable.

But all Arbery was seen doing at that moment was running.

In the Rittenhouse case, had he been an active shooter, spraying bullets & mowing down innocent protesters with
glee, then any member of the public could have taken him out with a bullet to the head & faced no charges, but he wasn't, all the people he shot were attacking him & or attempting to disarm him, having not witnessed him commit a crime.
So a an unarmed person who has allegedly committed a crime is not entitled to self-defence if they think their pursuer is about to kill them?
ANGER MAKES US AWARE OF INJUSTICE
We often experience anger when we are denied rights or when faced with insults, disrespect, injustice, or exploitation. Anger serves as an internal guidance system that indicates something is not quite right, that someone has treated us unjustly or unfairly. Anger helps communicate to others: “You’d better treat me fairly; otherwise, you’ll pay a high cost.” On a global level, standing up for a lack of fairness can prevent people from taking advantage of others. This type of anger can bring about positive change in society and increase the social cost of misbehaving.
The value of anger https://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/value-of-anger-16-reasons-its-good-to-get-angry-0313175

Offline Wonderfulspam

Re: Kyle Rittenhouse. Murder or Self Defence?
« Reply #114 on: November 25, 2021, 09:43:41 PM »
So a an unarmed person who has allegedly committed a crime is not entitled to self-defence if they think their pursuer is about to kill them?

You just strangled a woman in an alley, I see this happen & see you running away, I shout stop, tell you I'm making a citizens arrest (possibly whilst also making a fumbled 911 call), I draw my gun & keep it low ready, (it's out but not pointed at you) you run, I catch up, I don't actually threaten you with the gun but you try to grab it..... I probably wouldn't face charges for shooting you.
Free Martin Brueckner

Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: Kyle Rittenhouse. Murder or Self Defence?
« Reply #115 on: November 25, 2021, 09:59:12 PM »
You just strangled a woman in an alley, I see this happen & see you running away, I shout stop, tell you I'm making a citizens arrest (possibly whilst also making a fumbled 911 call), I draw my gun & keep it low ready, (it's out but not pointed at you) you run, I catch up, I don't actually threaten you with the gun but you try to grab it..... I probably wouldn't face charges for shooting you.
You just mugged a little old lady in an alley,, I see this happen and see you running away after throwing your knife over a garden wall, I shout stop, tell you I’m making a citizens arrest and draw my gun waving it in your face, you try to grab it because you fear you abre about to be shot and I do indeed shoot you dead, I am feted as a hero and get a handshake off Trump?
ANGER MAKES US AWARE OF INJUSTICE
We often experience anger when we are denied rights or when faced with insults, disrespect, injustice, or exploitation. Anger serves as an internal guidance system that indicates something is not quite right, that someone has treated us unjustly or unfairly. Anger helps communicate to others: “You’d better treat me fairly; otherwise, you’ll pay a high cost.” On a global level, standing up for a lack of fairness can prevent people from taking advantage of others. This type of anger can bring about positive change in society and increase the social cost of misbehaving.
The value of anger https://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/value-of-anger-16-reasons-its-good-to-get-angry-0313175

Offline Wonderfulspam

Re: Kyle Rittenhouse. Murder or Self Defence?
« Reply #116 on: November 25, 2021, 10:01:07 PM »
You just mugged a little old lady in an alley,, I see this happen and see you running away after throwing your knife over a garden wall, I shout stop, tell you I’m making a citizens arrest and draw my gun waving it in your face, you try to grab it because you fear you abre about to be shot and I do indeed shoot you dead, I am feted as a hero and get a handshake off Trump?

Spot the difference.
Free Martin Brueckner

Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: Kyle Rittenhouse. Murder or Self Defence?
« Reply #117 on: November 25, 2021, 10:09:44 PM »
ANGER MAKES US AWARE OF INJUSTICE
We often experience anger when we are denied rights or when faced with insults, disrespect, injustice, or exploitation. Anger serves as an internal guidance system that indicates something is not quite right, that someone has treated us unjustly or unfairly. Anger helps communicate to others: “You’d better treat me fairly; otherwise, you’ll pay a high cost.” On a global level, standing up for a lack of fairness can prevent people from taking advantage of others. This type of anger can bring about positive change in society and increase the social cost of misbehaving.
The value of anger https://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/value-of-anger-16-reasons-its-good-to-get-angry-0313175

Offline Wonderfulspam

Re: Kyle Rittenhouse. Murder or Self Defence?
« Reply #118 on: November 25, 2021, 10:24:20 PM »
no.

March through the streets of Wisconsin openly carrying a gun.

Not a crime.

Point said gun at you or threaten to use it without any threat to myself present.

Crime.
Free Martin Brueckner

Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: Kyle Rittenhouse. Murder or Self Defence?
« Reply #119 on: November 25, 2021, 10:26:17 PM »
March through the streets of Wisconsin openly carrying a gun.

Not a crime.

Point said gun at you or threaten to use it without any threat to myself present.

Crime.
Yeah, you changed the scenario to the one you initially described.
“If, for example, Arbery had just stabbed a guy, dropped the knife & ran, or raped a woman, someone witnessed this happen then chased & tried to detain him, then he attempts to wrestle for the gun, the shooting could well have been justifiable”. Hence my comment that alleged criminals are not allowed to defend themselves from possile death at the hands of another.
ANGER MAKES US AWARE OF INJUSTICE
We often experience anger when we are denied rights or when faced with insults, disrespect, injustice, or exploitation. Anger serves as an internal guidance system that indicates something is not quite right, that someone has treated us unjustly or unfairly. Anger helps communicate to others: “You’d better treat me fairly; otherwise, you’ll pay a high cost.” On a global level, standing up for a lack of fairness can prevent people from taking advantage of others. This type of anger can bring about positive change in society and increase the social cost of misbehaving.
The value of anger https://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/value-of-anger-16-reasons-its-good-to-get-angry-0313175