Author Topic: Consider this scenario - Would a guilty person keep their case alive for many years?  (Read 59100 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Brietta

Whether at home or abroad in the unthinkable circumstance of the death of one of my children the first thing I would do (after screaming the place down) would be to inform those around me and to get official assistance.
In my case since I am not an MD that would be medical and police.

Whether at home or abroad in the unthinkable circumstance of one of my children vanishing from her bed during the night with the window to her bedroom opened wide by someone unknown ~ once I had made a search of the immediate area ~ I would inform the police and while waiting for their arrival keep searching with the help of friends and neighbours.

In the circumstances I would be screaming "abduction" ... why would the scene suggest anything else?
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Alfie

  • Guest
This thread has been trimmed.  Posters are reminded that this thread started by Alfie is purely a scenario and does not relate to any specific individual or individuals.  Posts which associate this scenario with any real life case will be edited or removed.
For Shining-In-Luz's benefit.
I'm sure deleting this thread would be very convenient and a great relief for some, so let's see what gets decided at Mod Towers shall we?

Alfie

  • Guest
This thread is to examine motive - motive for asking for a fully independent, transparent and thorough review of all the information held by police forces about a crime *you* have already been investigated for, a case which has long since been shelved.  It is not to discuss how the review actually turned out, that's a separate thread.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2016, 03:36:41 PM by John »

Offline Miss Taken Identity

Whether at home or abroad in the unthinkable circumstance of the death of one of my children the first thing I would do (after screaming the place down) would be to inform those around me and to get official assistance.
In my case since I am not an MD that would be medical and police.

Whether at home or abroad in the unthinkable circumstance of one of my children vanishing from her bed during the night with the window to her bedroom opened wide by someone unknown ~ once I had made a search of the immediate area ~ I would inform the police and while waiting for their arrival keep searching with the help of friends and neighbours.

In the circumstances I would be screaming "abduction" ... why would the scene suggest anything else?

If that was the scene and you didn't stage it  as is response to 'the scenario' thingy. Staying on topic and discussing ALFIE's scenario... Alfie,Are you still not happy with my answers are they wrong or unbelievable? what?
'Never underestimate the power of stupid people'... George Carlin

Offline ShiningInLuz

Scenario:

Your child dies whilst you're on holiday and (for reasons best known to yourself) you claim he or she must have been abducted.

As a result, the case attracts the attention of the world's media but more importantly the police forces of both the country in which you were holidaying and from your own country. 

The police are suspicious, the media which was supportive in the early days has turned on you, printing all sorts of uncomfortable headlines heavily hinting that you have done something untoward with your child. 

Eventually you are made chief suspect in your child's disappearance and every aspect of your holiday, your relationship with your child and family and friends, your comings and goings etc is put under the microscope.  The police bust their guts trying to find some evidence that you hid your child's body.

Meanwhile most people in your home country and in the country in which you holidayed are convinced you're guilty of something.

Eventually, after months of investigation and trying to build a case against you, the police concede they lack any evidence against you, and you are no longer suspects.  The case is shelved indefinitely.  You sue the media for libel and settle out of court - a nice big juicy payment for your bank account.

Now, at this point you'd be forgiven for going to ground, issuing one final statement to the media along the lines of "we have come to terms with the fact that our daughter is gone, and just want to be left alone to grieve", then slink away into obscurity to spend all that lovely lolly you screwed out of the public and the papers. 

But no.  This is not what you do.

Instead you spend a small fortune on various private investigators, you write a book which gets serialised in the country's biggest circulation newspaper, you appear on TV chat shows, all allegedly to keep your child's profile high in the public consciousness even though you know what happened.

Then to cap it all, three whole years after the case was shelved you go to the highest man in your land,  the prime minister, by sending him a letter demanding:

"a joint INDEPENDENT, TRANSPARENT and COMPREHENSIVE review of ALL information held in relation to our child's disappearance".

You are granted your wish and the country's most esteemed police force is drafted in to sift through all the evidence all over again, at great cost to the public purse. 

You make yourself available for more TV appearances, BBC Crimewatch even, appealing for people to come forward who may have actually seen something.

The question I have to ask you is:

ARE YOU F@@KING MAD????

If not, what is your motivation for doing all of this?

69
Since this is a purely hypothetical scenario, here it is, sentence by sentence.

Your child dies whilst you're on holiday and (for reasons best known to yourself) you claim he or she must have been abducted.

This would be because you are guilty of something, or feel the need to cover something up.  That something could range from the simple e.g. neglect, to the horrendous e.g. you actually killed your own child.  And a multitude of things between.

I can't remember the case in Scotland in detail, but the gist was the parent(s) claimed the child had wandered off in an attempt to conceal the fact that the child had been killed.

As a hypothetical scenario, this has fallen even before the first fence.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2016, 03:39:19 PM by John »
What's up, old man?

Offline Brietta

Since this is a purely hypothetical scenario, here it is, sentence by sentence.

Your child dies whilst you're on holiday and (for reasons best known to yourself) you claim he or she must have been abducted.

This would be because you are guilty of something, or feel the need to cover something up.  That something could range from the simple e.g. neglect, to the horrendous e.g. you actually killed your own child.  And a multitude of things between.

I can't remember the case in Scotland in detail, but the gist was the parent(s) claimed the child had wandered off in an attempt to conceal the fact that the child had been killed.

As a hypothetical scenario, this has fallen even before the first fence.

The recent case in Scotland would not fit into my hypothetical scenario.  The child in Scotland was already known to be at risk and social services were working with the family.  The same local authority were also monitoring the latest child to be murdered by a parent;  something very wrong going on here.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-36397785

Back to my scenario now.  I'm going with finding my child missing from bed and her bedroom window open.

I'm from a Northern Climate.
We do not have shutters on our windows to block out the sun.  My experience of shutters is that they are solely for security purposes, when down, they are locked ... imagine my horror and terror when I discover that what I thought were security shutters were not ... and had been raised.


« Last Edit: June 21, 2016, 03:39:49 PM by John »
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline ShiningInLuz

The recent case in Scotland would not fit into my hypothetical scenario.  The child in Scotland was already known to be at risk and social services were working with the family.  The same local authority were also monitoring the latest child to be murdered by a parent;  something very wrong going on here.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-36397785

Back to my scenario now.  I'm going with finding my child missing from bed and her bedroom window open.

I'm from a Northern Climate.
We do not have shutters on our windows to block out the sun.  My experience of shutters is that they are solely for security purposes, when down, they are locked ... imagine my horror and terror when I discover that what I thought were security shutters were not ... and had been raised.
Hang on, have you suddenly become Alfie?
What's up, old man?

Offline ShiningInLuz

Scenario:

Your child dies whilst you're on holiday and (for reasons best known to yourself) you claim he or she must have been abducted.

As a result, the case attracts the attention of the world's media but more importantly the police forces of both the country in which you were holidaying and from your own country. 

The police are suspicious, the media which was supportive in the early days has turned on you, printing all sorts of uncomfortable headlines heavily hinting that you have done something untoward with your child. 

Eventually you are made chief suspect in your child's disappearance and every aspect of your holiday, your relationship with your child and family and friends, your comings and goings etc is put under the microscope.  The police bust their guts trying to find some evidence that you hid your child's body.

Meanwhile most people in your home country and in the country in which you holidayed are convinced you're guilty of something.

Eventually, after months of investigation and trying to build a case against you, the police concede they lack any evidence against you, and you are no longer suspects.  The case is shelved indefinitely.  You sue the media for libel and settle out of court - a nice big juicy payment for your bank account.

Now, at this point you'd be forgiven for going to ground, issuing one final statement to the media along the lines of "we have come to terms with the fact that our daughter is gone, and just want to be left alone to grieve", then slink away into obscurity to spend all that lovely lolly you screwed out of the public and the papers. 

But no.  This is not what you do.

Instead you spend a small fortune on various private investigators, you write a book which gets serialised in the country's biggest circulation newspaper, you appear on TV chat shows, all allegedly to keep your child's profile high in the public consciousness even though you know what happened.

Then to cap it all, three whole years after the case was shelved you go to the highest man in your land,  the prime minister, by sending him a letter demanding:

"a joint INDEPENDENT, TRANSPARENT and COMPREHENSIVE review of ALL information held in relation to our child's disappearance".

You are granted your wish and the country's most esteemed police force is drafted in to sift through all the evidence all over again, at great cost to the public purse. 

You make yourself available for more TV appearances, BBC Crimewatch even, appealing for people to come forward who may have actually seen something.

The question I have to ask you is:

ARE YOU F@@KING MAD????

If not, what is your motivation for doing all of this?

69
As a result, the case attracts the attention of the world's media but more importantly the police forces of both the country in which you were holidaying and from your own country.

Moving on to sentence 2, I hit another issue in this hypothetical scenario.

It is not normal for 2 police forces to investigate what happened when you were holidaying.  The norm is that wherever you were holidaying, that country's police force investigates.  I can think of only 2 cases where both countries investigated.  One is Ben Needham, where the UK has seen fit to investigate a crime on foreign soil.  The other is Madeleine McCann, where the UK has seen fit to investigate a crime on foreign soil.

Are there others?  If so, I would love to be enlightened.

If not, this hypothetical theorem has failed again.
What's up, old man?

Alfie

  • Guest
Since this is a purely hypothetical scenario, here it is, sentence by sentence.

Your child dies whilst you're on holiday and (for reasons best known to yourself) you claim he or she must have been abducted.

This would be because you are guilty of something, or feel the need to cover something up.  That something could range from the simple e.g. neglect, to the horrendous e.g. you actually killed your own child.  And a multitude of things between.

I can't remember the case in Scotland in detail, but the gist was the parent(s) claimed the child had wandered off in an attempt to conceal the fact that the child had been killed.

As a hypothetical scenario, this has fallen even before the first fence.

You're attempt to rubbish my scenario has fallen even before the first fence.  What on earth are you on about? 
« Last Edit: June 21, 2016, 03:50:23 PM by John »

Alfie

  • Guest
As a result, the case attracts the attention of the world's media but more importantly the police forces of both the country in which you were holidaying and from your own country.

Moving on to sentence 2, I hit another issue in this hypothetical scenario.

It is not normal for 2 police forces to investigate what happened when you were holidaying.  The norm is that wherever you were holidaying, that country's police force investigates.  I can think of only 2 cases where both countries investigated.  One is Ben Needham, where the UK has seen fit to investigate a crime on foreign soil.  The other is Madeleine McCann, where the UK has seen fit to investigate a crime on foreign soil.

Are there others?  If so, I would love to be enlightened.

If not, this hypothetical theorem has failed again.
LOL.  Why has my scenario failed again?  By your own admission the part you have chosen to highlight has already happened twice so what is your issue?  In any case this is only a scenario, designed to understand why anyone would choose to keep the spotlight on their own crimes and insist on a police review of their crimes so why are you trying so hard to pull it to pieces?   

Offline Brietta

Hang on, have you suddenly become Alfie?

LOL ... Nope, but I do think this could be a valuable thread given that the actions of an individual in a foreign land can very easily be open to misinterpretation and misunderstanding and vice versa.

The bigger the incident ~ the bigger the potential for disaster ~ aided and abetted by language and custom differences.

For example in Northern Europe shutters = security: we are unused to the concept that further south shutters = shade.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2016, 11:11:59 PM by Brietta »
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline ShiningInLuz

LOL ... Nope, but I do think this could be a valuable thread given that the actions of an individual in a foreign land can very easily be open to misinterpretation and misunderstanding and vice versa.

The bigger the incident ~ the bigger the potential for disaster ~ aided and abetted by language and custom differences.

For example in Northern Europe shutters = security: we are unused to the concept that further south shutters = shade.
Thank goodness for that, Brietta  I was getting a bit anxious for a moment.

If it is just a hypothetical discussion, in which case the shackles come off.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2016, 03:53:52 PM by John »
What's up, old man?

Offline Alice Purjorick

LOL ... Nope, but I do think this could be a valuable thread given that the actions of an individual in a foreign land can very easily be open to misinterpretation and misunderstanding and vice versa.

The bigger the incident ~ the bigger the potential for disaster ~ aided and abetted by language and custom differences.

For example in Northern Europe shutters = security: we are unused to the concept that further south shutters = shade.

That's fine provided your original analysis is correct, which seems to be there are only two purposes for a shutter.
I would assume the purpose of a shutter was for, but not limited to, the following:
 To control ingress of sunlight, to provide privacy, provide security or to protect against weather.
The security reason is usually the easiest to spot; it is the one with staples hasps and padlocks.
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline G-Unit

This thread is to examine motive - motive for asking for a fully independent, transparent and thorough review of all the information held by police forces about a crime *you* have already been investigated for, a case which has long since been shelved.  It is not to discuss how the review actually turned out, that's a separate thread.  Get it now?

It could be for;

To find out what mistakes were made, what lessons have been learned and what information has not yet been collated.

If something like the above was the motivation then those calling for the review would clearly hold the opinion that mistakes were made, there were lessons to be learned and there was uncollated information.

So the desired outcome was for the review to find and highlight the 'mistakes' that were allegedly made, to demonstrate what lessons should be learned and to gather all information in one place.

Finding and highlighting 'mistakes' would officially discredit the original investigation and the direction it took. The people asking for the review may have had reason to believe that their own police force would indeed find the original investigation substandard. Discrediting the original investigation would also discredit it's findings.

Lessons to be learned might include a Europe-wide system such as the US Amber Alert one and perhaps more cross-jurisdiction investigations, which occur in relation to some crimes but not child disappearances. That would would change the fact that the country where the disappearance occurs have primacy.

Gathering all the information together could be very useful in the event that the case remained unsolved. The people concerned could be planning an unprecedented legal bid for the release of the information in such cases, rather than it just gathering dust in an archive. Interested parties could then examine it and use it themselves.


Read and abide by the forum rules.
Result = happy posting.
Ignore and break the rules
Result = edits, deletions and unhappiness
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?board=2.0

Offline sadie

That's fine provided your original analysis is correct, which seems to be there are only two purposes for a shutter.
I would assume the purpose of a shutter was for, but not limited to, the following:
 To control ingress of sunlight, to provide privacy, provide security or to protect against weather.
The security reason is usually the easiest to spot; it is the one with staples hasps and padlocks.

We are unusually security conscious, having been the first people in our town to have introduced 'Neighbourhood Watch'.  This was many decades ago.

I go along with Brietta on this one.  I would have expected the shutters to be security devices, yet they weren't.


Alice, I agree with your comments about additional uses for the shutters but first and foremost in my mind would have been that they were security devices.  It would never have occurred to me to check for padlocks etc