UK Justice Forum

UK and North American politics. => A look at British politics in the light of the decision to leave the EU. => Topic started by: G-Unit on December 11, 2020, 09:38:55 AM

Title: Brexit
Post by: G-Unit on December 11, 2020, 09:38:55 AM
I was wondering what people think of Brexit now, as the split from the EU is imminent. The EU seem determined to retain some control over the UK as the price of a trade deal. Is that because they fear competition from the UK? There is also the matter of fishing, which is causing problems. Is this being driven by France, given the militancy of French fishermen? Who is being unrealistic? The British, who want to regain full control of their own affairs, or the EU who want a closer relationship than the one on offer?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: barrier on December 11, 2020, 11:07:00 AM
Boris was elected on the premise of delivering brexit, maybe just maybe we have a prime minister who'll deliver on a promise deal or no deal, the EU want it on their terms.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on December 11, 2020, 08:31:35 PM
I still think Brexit is going to be a disaster for this country but I think both sides in the negotiations need their heads knocking together to get a deal pronto.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on December 11, 2020, 08:33:53 PM
Boris was elected on the premise of delivering brexit, maybe just maybe we have a prime minister who'll deliver on a promise deal or no deal, the EU want it on their terms.
Boris’s tippety top ‘Australia deal’ looks to be the front runner atm.   What a complete joke.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Carana on December 11, 2020, 09:32:27 PM
I still haven't found any upside. The EU is by no means devoid of defects, but it's a force to be reckoned with. And, until Brexit, the UK was one of the major voices at the table in shaping it.

My feeling is that some  (Russia, the far right nationalists, ERG lot, Bannon/ Farage inter alia) wanted to break up Europe, and the crack in the oyster was via the UK.

The UK was fed up of years of austerity and was spoonfed the notion that any domestic problems were somehow all caused by "Brussels".

Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Carana on December 11, 2020, 09:39:29 PM
Even on the economic front, some of the proponents seem to have some alternative-reality views.

John Redwood, who seems to be more that a bit mixed up on how tariffs work. (hint: it's the opposite - the exporting country charges, the importing country pays.)
https://twitter.com/uk_domain_names/status/1336015003804184576/photo/1
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: G-Unit on December 11, 2020, 10:18:52 PM
I still haven't found any upside. The EU is by no means devoid of defects, but it's a force to be reckoned with. And, until Brexit, the UK was one of the major voices at the table in shaping it.

My feeling is that some  (Russia, the far right nationalists, ERG lot, Bannon/ Farage inter alia) wanted to break up Europe, and the crack in the oyster was via the UK.

The UK was fed up of years of austerity and was spoonfed the notion that any domestic problems were somehow all caused by "Brussels".

I think the whys and wherefores are immaterial now. All the warnings and predictions of doom have died out. The EU and the UK remainers have fought hard to keep the UK on board but have failed. Now it seems the EU fear competition from a near neighbour, and face losing the easy access to UK waters they have enjoyed. Right or wrong this government are determined to do what they promised to do. Perhaps the British people were wrong, but they had a democratic vote and finally seem to be getting what they voted for.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on December 11, 2020, 10:29:26 PM
I think the whys and wherefores are immaterial now. All the warnings and predictions of doom have died out. The EU and the UK remainers have fought hard to keep the UK on board but have failed. Now it seems the EU fear competition from a near neighbour, and face losing the easy access to UK waters they have enjoyed. Right or wrong this government are determined to do what they promised to do. Perhaps the British people were wrong, but they had a democratic vote and finally seem to be getting what they voted for.
”All the warnings and predictions of doom have died out”?  I don’t think so!
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Carana on December 11, 2020, 10:55:08 PM
I think the whys and wherefores are immaterial now. All the warnings and predictions of doom have died out. The EU and the UK remainers have fought hard to keep the UK on board but have failed. Now it seems the EU fear competition from a near neighbour, and face losing the easy access to UK waters they have enjoyed. Right or wrong this government are determined to do what they promised to do. Perhaps the British people were wrong, but they had a democratic vote and finally seem to be getting what they voted for.

I'd agree if the vote had been the result of full information being provided that people could weigh up. AFAIK, it wasn't.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Carana on December 12, 2020, 04:08:38 AM


Brexit: Armed Navy boats on standby to protect UK waters in case of no deal



Armed Royal Navy boats are being prepared to patrol the UK's fishing waters in an apparent final warning shot to Brussels as negotiations enter the final 48 hours.

Four of the 80-metre vessels are on standby to guard British waters from EU fishermen in case no deal is agreed on fishing rights after the Brexit transition period ends on 31 December.

https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-armed-navy-boats-on-standby-to-protect-uk-waters-in-case-of-no-deal-12158624


Erm, how is that supposed fishers to export 80-90% of their catch to their largest market?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on December 12, 2020, 07:05:17 AM
That’s just what this country needs: a jolly good war with Europe.   Let’s show ‘em who’s boss!
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Wonderfulspam on December 12, 2020, 08:21:08 AM


If the navy open fire on so much as one french fishing vessel, then Brexit will have been completely worth it.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: G-Unit on December 12, 2020, 08:28:16 AM
I'd agree if the vote had been the result of full information being provided that people could weigh up. AFAIK, it wasn't.

There was a lot of information being provided, but most of it was from people who desired a particular outcome.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Carana on December 12, 2020, 11:08:05 AM
There was a lot of information being provided, but most of it was from people who desired a particular outcome.

My take is that there was indeed information available (if people had the time / inclination to look for it), but there was also a lot of mis / disinformation peddled on a daily basis.

On occasion, I found some of the criticism of the EU to be justified, but the vast majority of it fell between "half-true" and "pants on fire".

A few people I know who voted for Brexit were slowly changing their minds and would probably have then voted against had there been a second referendum. However, when push came to shove, the thought of Corbyn in power seemed even worse.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda

Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Carana on December 12, 2020, 11:13:24 AM
Sadly, the page of EU myths is no longer active. Some of it can be found via Way Back.

https://wayback.archive-it.org/11980/20200131183933/https://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/

The original list was huge, albeit not comprehensive. And was here:
https://wayback.archive-it.org/11980/20200131192225/https://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/euromyths-a-z-index/

Ah. I haven't checked it all, but this seems to be a working version.
http://the-eu-and-me.org.uk/eu-myths.html

Nope, it has a few, but not all.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: G-Unit on December 12, 2020, 12:11:15 PM
It seems likely that the proof of the pudding will be in the eating now. My concerns were always about the blatant attempts to ignore/overturn the result of a democratic vote and although I'm no Tory I applaud them for doing what the people voted for.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Carana on December 12, 2020, 01:02:29 PM
It seems likely that the proof of the pudding will be in the eating now. My concerns were always about the blatant attempts to ignore/overturn the result of a democratic vote and although I'm no Tory I applaud them for doing what the people voted for.

Lol Back to the same argument: I'd agree if people had been fully aware of what exactly the implications were.

Way back, people were assured that the UK would definitely still have full access to the Single Market and customs union and that the whole thing could be settled over a cup of tea. The impression was that the UK would save lots of money and things wouldn't seem much different.


Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on December 12, 2020, 01:40:40 PM
The turkeys voted for Christmas and now we're all going to get a damned good stuffing.  Merry Christmas!
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: G-Unit on December 12, 2020, 01:43:05 PM
A lot of people neither understood nor cared about the single market and the customs union imo. They understood freedom of movement because they saw the problems schools were facing with children who didn't speak English, they experienced situations where doctor's surgeries and hospital waiting rooms contained a high proportion of people who weren't speaking English. They knew that EU families were being paid tax credits even though only the man of the family was in the UK. They saw EU families being allocated social housing.

Those facts, in my opinion, influenced the vote because they affected people's lives in a way they could see, hear and feel. The other arguments may have been important, but how they related to everyday life wasn't clearly demonstrated. I think people voted on what they felt would improve their lives if the UK left the EU.

It doesn't really matter now, anyway, as the die is cast. If people suffer as a result of Brexit the blame lies with a man who promised a referendum for political reasons and misjudged the situation so badly he ended his own political career when the results of the vote came in. Other politicians then ended their political careers by appearing to ditch democracy completely.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: G-Unit on December 12, 2020, 01:50:49 PM
The turkeys voted for Christmas and now we're all going to get a damned good stuffing.  Merry Christmas!

We can spend Christmas celebrating the fact that democracy has survived in the UK. Merry Christmas!

Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: G-Unit on December 12, 2020, 02:17:24 PM
There is, of course an alternative view. Is the EU really such a great institution? Perhaps not;

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-9045299/MARK-ALMOND-EU-sick-man-Europe.html?ns_mchannel=rss&ico=taboola_feed_desktop_news
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on December 12, 2020, 03:36:24 PM
We can spend Christmas celebrating the fact that democracy has survived in the UK. Merry Christmas!
A democratic vote to self-harm is nothing to get too merry about imo.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on December 12, 2020, 05:36:53 PM
The thing I don’t understand is why the UK government is even trying to negotiate a deal as Boris and his pals seem to think “No Deal” will be wonderful for Britain

“Unfortunately there are two key things where we just can’t seem to make progress,” he said. “I’ve got to tell you that from where I stand now it is looking very, very likely that we will have to go for a solution that I think would be wonderful for the UK, and we’d be able to do exactly what we want from January.”

Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Wonderfulspam on December 12, 2020, 06:19:11 PM


No one is going to be complaining about Brexit once the NHS starts getting an extra 250 million a week.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on December 12, 2020, 06:21:42 PM

No one is going to be complaining about Brexit once the NHS starts getting an extra 250 million a week.
An extra 250 million what?  Asylum seekers needing free healthcare?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Carana on December 12, 2020, 06:44:15 PM
The thing I don’t understand is why the UK government is even trying to negotiate a deal as Boris and his pals seem to think “No Deal” will be wonderful for Britain

“Unfortunately there are two key things where we just can’t seem to make progress,” he said. “I’ve got to tell you that from where I stand now it is looking very, very likely that we will have to go for a solution that I think would be wonderful for the UK, and we’d be able to do exactly what we want from January.”

No one wants to blink first. And BoJo is a ra-ra* politician.

*The first time I heard that term came from a South African and I had to ask what it meant. It means a politician who can get the crowds to roar in favour, whatever the situation. A bit like Trump. Or a few others in history.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on December 12, 2020, 06:57:55 PM
No one wants to blink first. And BoJo is a ra-ra* politician.

*The first time I heard that term came from a South African and I had to ask what it meant. It means a politician who can get the crowds to roar in favour, whatever the situation. A bit like Trump. Or a few others in history.
That’s one way of putting it.  I can think of more earthy descriptions to describe his modu operandi.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Carana on December 12, 2020, 07:05:18 PM
A lot of people neither understood nor cared about the single market and the customs union imo. They understood freedom of movement because they saw the problems schools were facing with children who didn't speak English, they experienced situations where doctor's surgeries and hospital waiting rooms contained a high proportion of people who weren't speaking English. They knew that EU families were being paid tax credits even though only the man of the family was in the UK. They saw EU families being allocated social housing.

Those facts, in my opinion, influenced the vote because they affected people's lives in a way they could see, hear and feel. The other arguments may have been important, but how they related to everyday life wasn't clearly demonstrated. I think people voted on what they felt would improve their lives if the UK left the EU.

It doesn't really matter now, anyway, as the die is cast. If people suffer as a result of Brexit the blame lies with a man who promised a referendum for political reasons and misjudged the situation so badly he ended his own political career when the results of the vote came in. Other politicians then ended their political careers by appearing to ditch democracy completely.

I tend to agree with you on that. Sadly, I doubt that anyone really pointed out to them that the bread-winner could well be out of a job or small business.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Carana on December 12, 2020, 07:30:42 PM
That’s one way of putting it.  I can think of more earthy descriptions to describe his modu operandi.

I've never been convinced he's been the one in charge, more of a front-man, IMO.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on December 12, 2020, 07:33:12 PM
I've never been convinced he's been the one in charge, more of a front-man, IMO.
A front man for who?  I think he’s just an opportunist who would sell his granny for the top job.  Now he’s PM I hope he’s really enjoying it, I’m sure thr last year have been a right blast.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Carana on December 12, 2020, 08:34:15 PM
A front man for who?  I think he’s just an opportunist who would sell his granny for the top job.  Now he’s PM I hope he’s really enjoying it, I’m sure thr last year have been a right blast.

The ERG crowd?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: G-Unit on December 12, 2020, 08:35:13 PM
I tend to agree with you on that. Sadly, I doubt that anyone really pointed out to them that the bread-winner could well be out of a job or small business.

Remaining in the EU isn't going to guarantee that Europe's fishermen keep their jobs by the look of things.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on December 12, 2020, 11:01:18 PM
Remaining in the EU isn't going to guarantee that Europe's fishermen keep their jobs by the look of things.
Would leaving the EU help European fishermen more do you think?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: G-Unit on December 13, 2020, 02:09:43 AM
Would leaving the EU help European fishermen more do you think?

No. Before 1970 their access to the richest fishing waters in the world was limited, being controlled by the UK, Ireland, Norway and Denmark (including Greenland). As these countries were seeking membership of the Common Market at the time, the six existing members drew up Council Regulation 2141/70 giving all Members equal access to all fishing waters. Britain, Ireland and Denmark accepted the condition and joined. Leaving the EU wouldn't help the European fishermen as they would then be unable to access EU member's waters as well as UK waters.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Fisheries_Policy
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on December 13, 2020, 08:06:34 AM
Looks like we’ll need to be encouraging the younger generation to relocate to the seaside and train as fisherpeople to catch all this fish that is going to restore the UK to its former glory. At least we won’t go hungry (if you can stomach a diet of fish, fish and more fish, for breakfast, lunch and dinner) as I see in today’s Times that stockpiling and food shortages of fruit and veg are going to kick in shortly.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: G-Unit on December 13, 2020, 11:37:18 AM
Looks like we’ll need to be encouraging the younger generation to relocate to the seaside and train as fisherpeople to catch all this fish that is going to restore the UK to its former glory. At least we won’t go hungry (if you can stomach a diet of fish, fish and more fish, for breakfast, lunch and dinner) as I see in today’s Times that stockpiling and food shortages of fruit and veg are going to kick in shortly.

I remember when foods were eaten in season, so a lack of lettuce at Christmas won't bother me. I can also manage without spinach, olives and European cheeses.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on December 13, 2020, 01:18:08 PM
I remember when foods were eaten in season, so a lack of lettuce at Christmas won't bother me. I can also manage without spinach, olives and European cheeses.
Bully for you.  Fish and chips it is then.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: G-Unit on December 13, 2020, 01:45:59 PM
Bully for you.  Fish and chips it is then.

I'm sure you realise there's a wealth of food produced in Britain to choose from.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on December 13, 2020, 02:48:37 PM
I'm sure you realise there's a wealth of food produced in Britain to choose from.
Of course I realise it, I just don’t think it’s desirable to limit and restrict choice or availability  because it will mean less to go round, push up prices, and increase food poverty.  But if that’s what Brexit means then so be it.  We will be begging to rejoin the EU before long in such an eventuality.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: G-Unit on December 13, 2020, 04:14:13 PM
Of course I realise it, I just don’t think it’s desirable to limit and restrict choice or availability  because it will mean less to go round, push up prices, and increase food poverty.  But if that’s what Brexit means then so be it.  We will be begging to rejoin the EU before long in such an eventuality.

We shall see. After all, EU members will be keen to get their products to the UK so perhaps they'll lower their prices to reduce the effects of tariff charges on prices. Or perhaps Spain's  “Dystopian Sea" might get sorted out.
https://www.ecowatch.com/europes-dirty-little-secret-moroccan-slaves-and-a-sea-of-plastic-1882131257.html#toggle-gdpr
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on December 13, 2020, 04:39:51 PM
We shall see. After all, EU members will be keen to get their products to the UK so perhaps they'll lower their prices to reduce the effects of tariff charges on prices. Or perhaps Spain's  “Dystopian Sea" might get sorted out.
https://www.ecowatch.com/europes-dirty-little-secret-moroccan-slaves-and-a-sea-of-plastic-1882131257.html#toggle-gdpr
They can lower their prices all they like, if their goods are stuck in Calais and other EU ports because of French fishermen blockades or massive tailbacks of lorries then it won’t make them very readily available.   And if Spain has to lay off all their Moroccan  “slaves” no doubt they will be exported to us in the back of the lorries too, together with the last of the lettuces and tomatoes.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on December 13, 2020, 05:22:09 PM
Why on earth have they extended the deadline again when No Deal is going to be so extremely beneficial to our country?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: G-Unit on December 13, 2020, 07:32:25 PM
Why on earth have they extended the deadline again when No Deal is going to be so extremely beneficial to our country?

Clearly one side has blinked. I would be surprised to hear that the UK have compromised on sovereignty.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Carana on December 13, 2020, 07:35:19 PM
(http://)


https://www.chappatte.com/en/gctheme/united-kingdom/page/2/

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Carana on December 13, 2020, 07:45:52 PM
Clearly one side has blinked. I would be surprised to hear that the UK have compromised on sovereignty.

"Sovereignty"? In what sense?

When you sign up to any club, there are rights and obligations. The Uk was one of the major players in shaping EU "law", which then applied to all members.

Going back to WTO rules will still mean abiding by rules.

Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on December 13, 2020, 09:26:53 PM
A lot of people neither understood nor cared about the single market and the customs union imo. They understood freedom of movement because they saw the problems schools were facing with children who didn't speak English, they experienced situations where doctor's surgeries and hospital waiting rooms contained a high proportion of people who weren't speaking English. They knew that EU families were being paid tax credits even though only the man of the family was in the UK. They saw EU families being allocated social housing.

Those facts, in my opinion, influenced the vote because they affected people's lives in a way they could see, hear and feel. The other arguments may have been important, but how they related to everyday life wasn't clearly demonstrated. I think people voted on what they felt would improve their lives if the UK left the EU.

It doesn't really matter now, anyway, as the die is cast. If people suffer as a result of Brexit the blame lies with a man who promised a referendum for political reasons and misjudged the situation so badly he ended his own political career when the results of the vote came in. Other politicians then ended their political careers by appearing to ditch democracy completely.



Indeed people the majority being white and christian leaning regarding religion  should have a say in how they want their tax money to be spent and who should be allowed into the country and on what grounds.


Merkle opened the gates without consulting anyone- played down the treachery what was bestowed upon a nation, where women are still  being raped tormented murdered within and out with certain 'communities' which would NOT normally be associated with Germans. The EU continues to pay a heavy price and don't think for a moment that Poland, Hungry Italy are not all looking to see what happens with the Brexit... waiting.. watching...
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9048105/Priti-Patel-urged-help-powerless-council-shut-Park-Lane-homeless-encampment.html.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on December 13, 2020, 09:29:23 PM

Brexit: Armed Navy boats on standby to protect UK waters in case of no deal



Armed Royal Navy boats are being prepared to patrol the UK's fishing waters in an apparent final warning shot to Brussels as negotiations enter the final 48 hours.

Four of the 80-metre vessels are on standby to guard British waters from EU fishermen in case no deal is agreed on fishing rights after the Brexit transition period ends on 31 December.

https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-armed-navy-boats-on-standby-to-protect-uk-waters-in-case-of-no-deal-12158624


Erm, how is that supposed fishers to export 80-90% of their catch to their largest market?


They should come  to OUR landing markets and buy like everyone else does on trade? yes /no?

 
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9048047/Foreign-owned-trawler-controls-QUARTER-Englands-fishing-quota-biggest-Brexit-share.html
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on December 13, 2020, 09:37:33 PM
"Sovereignty"? In what sense?

When you sign up to any club, there are rights and obligations. The Uk was one of the major players in shaping EU "law", which then applied to all members.

Going back to WTO rules will still mean abiding by rules.

Well, that isn't entirely true now  is it?


"Sovereignty"? In what sense?


In the sense that you can come into myhome and share my food as I can come into your and share your food,BUT you cannot come into my house and tell me what sexuality I must have, what food I should eat, tell me how to bring up my children with YOUR version of what would be acceptable to YOUR agenda.

They do business with the rest of the world including China... they dictate their terms on those countries?

And would they care much if Hungary or Poland jumped ship?


Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Carana on December 13, 2020, 10:32:44 PM
Duncan Smith says that "no deal" is a misnomer as falling back on WTO terms would still represent a deal.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_F83BpNw7VU

Erm...
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Carana on December 13, 2020, 10:45:44 PM

They should come  to OUR landing markets and buy like everyone else does on trade? yes /no?

 
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9048047/Foreign-owned-trawler-controls-QUARTER-Englands-fishing-quota-biggest-Brexit-share.html

Together, the EU countries establish quotas. Then, the countries concerned apportion their quota domestically.

A problem appears to be that the Uk governement allowed fishing rights /quotas to be sold off to foreign companies.

https://www.bbc.com/news/52420116

Is that an EU issue, or a UK one?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Carana on December 13, 2020, 11:11:33 PM
Well, that isn't entirely true now  is it?


"Sovereignty"? In what sense?


In the sense that you can come into myhome and share my food as I can come into your and share your food,BUT you cannot come into my house and tell me what sexuality I must have, what food I should eat, tell me how to bring up my children with YOUR version of what would be acceptable to YOUR agenda.

They do business with the rest of the world including China... they dictate their terms on those countries?

And would they care much if Hungary or Poland jumped ship?

If I join a club, I sign up to the rules. Once I'm in, I and the other members agree on other rules, or disband existing ones, as necessary.

If I decide to leave the club, but would like to continue to benefit from some services, it is then up to the existing members to determine the conditions, subject to negotiation with me as an external party.

Even if I have something useful to offer in return, I don't hold all the cards.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: G-Unit on December 14, 2020, 08:30:38 AM
"Sovereignty"? In what sense?

When you sign up to any club, there are rights and obligations. The Uk was one of the major players in shaping EU "law", which then applied to all members.

Going back to WTO rules will still mean abiding by rules.

When you leave a club those rights and obligations cease. If the UK was a major player our governments from Thatcher onwards deceived us by posing as victims of the EU. They were always setting off to 'do battle' with the EU, we were told.

Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on December 14, 2020, 09:16:09 AM
When you leave a club those rights and obligations cease. If the UK was a major player our governments from Thatcher onwards deceived us by posing as victims of the EU. They were always setting off to 'do battle' with the EU, we were told.
Some would say that this country hasn't done so badly in the last 40 years as part of the EU.  Of course it depends what your measures are.  Personally I preferred Britain in 1997, 2007 and 2017 to Britain in 1977 (although admittedly the Top 40 was better then).
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: G-Unit on December 14, 2020, 10:54:19 AM
Some would say that this country hasn't done so badly in the last 40 years as part of the EU.  Of course it depends what your measures are.  Personally I preferred Britain in 1997, 2007 and 2017 to Britain in 1977 (although admittedly the Top 40 was better then).

I was impressed by the minimum wage and minimum holidays set by the EU. That's about it.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Carana on December 14, 2020, 01:31:56 PM
Hmmm?

Is the govt concerned about the impact of no deal Brexit on food prices and shortages of some products?

Chair of Tesco warns prices could rise by 5%, with 2 months of shortages. @Foodanddrinkfed
 says no deal would be “catastrophic.”

Dominic Raab told me “we’re going to be fine”

https://twitter.com/DanielHewittITV/status/1338462532407857152

Raab says, in the event of a no deal, a price increase due to tariffs would only amount to less than 2%. Erm, not that simple (tariffs vary hugely depending on what foodstuffs /beverages).

However, he is correct to say that FX, etc, will also have an impact. He doesn't mention the cost of the enormous amount red tape... that doesn't come for free.

I don't think he's correct to say that 50% of food "comes from the UK", 20% from the rest of the world and 30% from the EU. Methinks a bit of fudging there.

Two weeks left until Brexit officially kicks in, and still no one knows what the hell they're supposed to actually prepare for, let alone how.

I feel most sorry for the little mom and pop businesses.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: G-Unit on December 14, 2020, 02:19:00 PM
If I join a club, I sign up to the rules. Once I'm in, I and the other members agree on other rules, or disband existing ones, as necessary.

If I decide to leave the club, but would like to continue to benefit from some services, it is then up to the existing members to determine the conditions, subject to negotiation with me as an external party.

Even if I have something useful to offer in return, I don't hold all the cards.

You may not hold all the cards, but you must have some or the club wouldn't be interested. Both sides are entitled to say "‘Thus far shall you come, and no farther, and here shall your proud waves be stayed" (Job 38:11)

Is the club entitled to impose conditions which ensure you don't upset it's members by competing with them or to demand that it's members are still allowed to use premises belonging to you, which was something you allowed only because you were a member of the club?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on December 16, 2020, 08:17:03 AM
You may not hold all the cards, but you must have some or the club wouldn't be interested. Both sides are entitled to say "‘Thus far shall you come, and no farther, and here shall your proud waves be stayed" (Job 38:11)

Is the club entitled to impose conditions which ensure you don't upset it's members by competing with them or to demand that it's members are still allowed to use premises belonging to you, which was something you allowed only because you were a member of the club?
Conditions that you yourself helped to write and would have been only too keen to enforce if (say) Germany had decided to leave the club instead of you?  The club wants access to use your premises in return for something rather valuable, so you have a choice: don’t grant access and don’t have the access to the single market in return. 
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: G-Unit on December 16, 2020, 12:51:31 PM
Conditions that you yourself helped to write and would have been only too keen to enforce if (say) Germany had decided to leave the club instead of you?  The club wants access to use your premises in return for something rather valuable, so you have a choice: don’t grant access and don’t have the access to the single market in return.

Do you have any basis for your statement about the UK's reaction if another country had decided to leave, or is it just speculation on your part?

The impression our Prime Minister has given is that the UK will not compromise if it's sovereignty is threatened.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on December 16, 2020, 01:19:25 PM
Do you have any basis for your statement about the UK's reaction if another country had decided to leave, or is it just speculation on your part?

The impression our Prime Minister has given is that the UK will not compromise if it's sovereignty is threatened.
Yes, the basis for my statement is that Britain was party to the rule-making in the first instance and did not (as far as I'm aware) object at any point whilst a member of the EU to these particular stipulations, unless you have information to the contrary?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: G-Unit on December 17, 2020, 01:29:47 PM
It seems the EU isn't as wonderful as the propagandists portrayed it. The cracks are beginning to show as the UK determinedly pursue their democratically chosen course.

Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on December 17, 2020, 06:18:29 PM
It seems the EU isn't as wonderful as the propagandists portrayed it. The cracks are beginning to show as the UK determinedly pursue their democratically chosen course.
Which propagandists are you referring to?  And what cracks?  Why I wonder is staunch right-wing nationalist Marine LePen now pro-EU, any idea?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: G-Unit on December 17, 2020, 07:25:59 PM
Which propagandists are you referring to?  And what cracks?  Why I wonder is staunch right-wing nationalist Marine LePen now pro-EU, any idea?

Have you forgotten the claims already?

Alarmist claims that London’s famous Square Mile — which generates a quarter of UK wealth — would shut down and move to Paris or Frankfurt proved false.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/13468063/no-deal-brexit-leave-eu-in-shreds-not-britain/
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on December 17, 2020, 07:54:47 PM
Have you forgotten the claims already?

Alarmist claims that London’s famous Square Mile — which generates a quarter of UK wealth — would shut down and move to Paris or Frankfurt proved false.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/13468063/no-deal-brexit-leave-eu-in-shreds-not-britain/
That quote doesn’t support your previous statement about propagandists claiming the EU is wonderful, nor that the cracks are beginning to show.  So I ask again, which propagandists are you referring to and what cracks?

PS talking of propaganda, I would class your cite as propaganda personally.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on December 20, 2020, 07:34:48 PM
Hmmm?

Is the govt concerned about the impact of no deal Brexit on food prices and shortages of some products?

Chair of Tesco warns prices could rise by 5%, with 2 months of shortages. @Foodanddrinkfed
 says no deal would be “catastrophic.”

Dominic Raab told me “we’re going to be fine”

https://twitter.com/DanielHewittITV/status/1338462532407857152

Raab says, in the event of a no deal, a price increase due to tariffs would only amount to less than 2%. Erm, not that simple (tariffs vary hugely depending on what foodstuffs /beverages).

However, he is correct to say that FX, etc, will also have an impact. He doesn't mention the cost of the enormous amount red tape... that doesn't come for free.

I don't think he's correct to say that 50% of food "comes from the UK", 20% from the rest of the world and 30% from the EU. Methinks a bit of fudging there.

Two weeks left until Brexit officially kicks in, and still no one knows what the hell they're supposed to actually prepare for, let alone how.

I feel most sorry for the little mom and pop businesses.


I feel sorry for the French farmers and fisher persons  oh wait.... Nah fx that. They got a great deal , they don't own the UK some would have you believe they didn't hold up a WHITE flag in the second world war  and it wasn't the allies including the UK which saved them...


Re: the club membership scenario, when you do leave and want to stay friends it is not for the club owners to demand you keep paying your Membership Fee or have access to your bank  account!
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on December 20, 2020, 07:38:31 PM
Hmmm?

Is the govt concerned about the impact of no deal Brexit on food prices and shortages of some products?

Chair of Tesco warns prices could rise by 5%, with 2 months of shortages. @Foodanddrinkfed
 says no deal would be “catastrophic.”

Dominic Raab told me “we’re going to be fine”

https://twitter.com/DanielHewittITV/status/1338462532407857152

Raab says, in the event of a no deal, a price increase due to tariffs would only amount to less than 2%. Erm, not that simple (tariffs vary hugely depending on what foodstuffs /beverages).

However, he is correct to say that FX, etc, will also have an impact. He doesn't mention the cost of the enormous amount red tape... that doesn't come for free.

I don't think he's correct to say that 50% of food "comes from the UK", 20% from the rest of the world and 30% from the EU. Methinks a bit of fudging there.

Two weeks left until Brexit officially kicks in, and still no one knows what the hell they're supposed to actually prepare for, let alone how.

I feel most sorry for the little mom and pop businesses.


You may have missed or not bothered to read the UK GOV assistance web page on how to prepare for  No deal or any deal for businesses and consumers.  That's OK because it would spoil your doom 'we're all gonna die 'agenda.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: G-Unit on December 21, 2020, 08:51:46 AM

I feel sorry for the French farmers and fisher persons  oh wait.... Nah fx that. They got a great deal , they don't own the UK some would have you believe they didn't hold up a WHITE flag in the second world war  and it wasn't the allies including the UK which saved them...


Re: the club membership scenario, when you do leave and want to stay friends it is not for the club owners to demand you keep paying your Membership Fee or have access to your bank  account!

In my opinion it's only now that the true situation is emerging. It seems that the EU fear that UK businesses will undercut European businesses unless they are hampered by still being subject to EU laws. The EU fishing industry will contract without free access to UK waters but so did the UK fishing industry when Heath handed over our waters without any protection for our fishermen. What goes around comes around. 
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on December 21, 2020, 11:28:20 PM
In my opinion it's only now that the true situation is emerging. It seems that the EU fear that UK businesses will undercut European businesses unless they are hampered by still being subject to EU laws. The EU fishing industry will contract without free access to UK waters but so did the UK fishing industry when Heath handed over our waters without any protection for our fishermen. What goes around comes around.
I understood that many English fishermen  sold their quotas to European fishermen in the 1990s and that currently 50+% of quotas are foreign-owned so are we just going to steal back what was legally sold or what?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: G-Unit on December 21, 2020, 11:51:43 PM
I understood that many English fishermen  sold their quotas to European fishermen in the 1990s and that currently 50+% of quotas are foreign-owned so are we just going to steal back what was legally sold or what?

Only if the quotas still exist. The EU may not have the power to impose quotas after January 1st 2021 if they continue to make unrealistic demands. The most likely outcome in my opinion is that there will be an agreed gradual change rather than an abrupt one.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on December 21, 2020, 11:56:45 PM
Only if the quotas still exist. The EU may not have the power to impose quotas after January 1st 2021 if they continue to make unrealistic demands. The most likely outcome in my opinion is that there will be an agreed gradual change rather than an abrupt one.
obviously.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: G-Unit on December 22, 2020, 01:14:58 PM
obviously.

Hampered, it seems, mainly by Denmark and France.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/dec/22/brexit-deadlock-eu-members-asked-to-think-over-no-10-fishing-offer
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: G-Unit on December 23, 2020, 02:15:12 PM
Macron's unilateral actions against the UK seem to be at an end now thankfully.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on December 23, 2020, 03:00:15 PM
Macron's unilateral actions against the UK seem to be at an end now thankfully.
It's given us a good taste of what to expect in a couple of weeks time (and for longer than a couple of days) if we don't get a deal. 
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: G-Unit on December 23, 2020, 10:20:45 PM
It's given us a good taste of what to expect in a couple of weeks time (and for longer than a couple of days) if we don't get a deal.

I don't think Macron will get away with closing France's borders again. His EU partners weren't impressed, nor were the French and Polish lorry drivers stuck in that queue.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on December 24, 2020, 07:50:19 AM
I don't think Macron will get away with closing France's borders again. His EU partners weren't impressed, nor were the French and Polish lorry drivers stuck in that queue.
We’ve got a deal, now all that remains to be seen is how much each side has conceded....
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: G-Unit on December 24, 2020, 08:26:44 AM
We’ve got a deal, now all that remains to be seen is how much each side has conceded....

I thought the French were still wingeing about fish?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on December 24, 2020, 08:28:09 AM
I thought the French were still wingeing about fish?
I think you need to check your preferredd newsfeed.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on December 24, 2020, 09:39:11 AM
Comment in the Times
“We don't yet know what is in this trade deal, but some conclusions can be drawn alrady:


1. Better late than never
2. Any deal, even a bad deal is better than no deal
3. Whatever will be in this deal, it won't be as good as the deal we had
4. Whatever is agreed, we will still have to follow a great many EU rules and regulations but wont have any influence
5. Whatever is agreed, many Brexit voters will feel betrayed
6. Whatever is agreed, most remain voters will see their fears confirmed because the promise that we will be better off cannot be kept
7. Despite the deal, the international damage done is immense,  just think of threatening to break international law
8. The UK's standing in the world outside the EU will be curtailed
9. We have lost the freedom to travel, live and work in the EU
10. We have lost the freedom to simply load a lorry with goods and just go and deliver things in the EU
11. Brexit was supposed to free us from read tape, instead we have created a large amount of new red tape, much of it internal
12. Because of new customs procedures - there were none before - goods will be more expensive to cover the cost of the new red tape
13. Because people don't like to pay more and be more restricted, xenophobic sentiments will get worse
14. The ERG will likely damage the Conservatives even more
15. The UK union is at risk

There is of course more to be concerned about but still, this deal will be better than no deal”. 

But at least democracy prevailed and the turkeys got the Christmas they wanted!
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: G-Unit on December 24, 2020, 10:38:44 AM
Comment in the Times
“We don't yet know what is in this trade deal, but some conclusions can be drawn alrady:


1. Better late than never
2. Any deal, even a bad deal is better than no deal
3. Whatever will be in this deal, it won't be as good as the deal we had
4. Whatever is agreed, we will still have to follow a great many EU rules and regulations but wont have any influence
5. Whatever is agreed, many Brexit voters will feel betrayed
6. Whatever is agreed, most remain voters will see their fears confirmed because the promise that we will be better off cannot be kept
7. Despite the deal, the international damage done is immense,  just think of threatening to break international law
8. The UK's standing in the world outside the EU will be curtailed
9. We have lost the freedom to travel, live and work in the EU
10. We have lost the freedom to simply load a lorry with goods and just go and deliver things in the EU
11. Brexit was supposed to free us from read tape, instead we have created a large amount of new red tape, much of it internal
12. Because of new customs procedures - there were none before - goods will be more expensive to cover the cost of the new red tape
13. Because people don't like to pay more and be more restricted, xenophobic sentiments will get worse
14. The ERG will likely damage the Conservatives even more
15. The UK union is at risk

There is of course more to be concerned about but still, this deal will be better than no deal”. 

But at least democracy prevailed and the turkeys got the Christmas they wanted!

There seems to be a fair bit of speculation there; I imagine the writer is a remainer. Whatever the deal is, both the EU countries and the UK will face difficulties arising from the Covid outbreak. I fully expect remainers to blame Brexit rather than Covid, obviously.

The test of the deal for me is whether the UK has managed to regain the right to make it's own decisions rather than having laws imposed on it from the EU. If it has then the government has carried out the wishes of a majority of the people, which is what they were asked to do. Those MP's who clearly wanted to ignore a democratic vote are gone; Dominic Grieve, Anna Soubry, Chuka Umunna and David Gauke in particular were prominant but not any more.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on December 24, 2020, 12:50:08 PM
There seems to be a fair bit of speculation there; I imagine the writer is a remainer. Whatever the deal is, both the EU countries and the UK will face difficulties arising from the Covid outbreak. I fully expect remainers to blame Brexit rather than Covid, obviously.

The test of the deal for me is whether the UK has managed to regain the right to make it's own decisions rather than having laws imposed on it from the EU. If it has then the government has carried out the wishes of a majority of the people, which is what they were asked to do. Those MP's who clearly wanted to ignore a democratic vote are gone; Dominic Grieve, Anna Soubry, Chuka Umunna and David Gauke in particular were prominant but not any more.
And I fully expect Brexiteers to blame Covid for everything bad that happens to this country for the next 10 years, in fact you could say that Covid has provided them with the perfect cover. 
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: mrswah on December 26, 2020, 11:06:43 PM
And I fully expect Brexiteers to blame Covid for everything bad that happens to this country for the next 10 years, in fact you could say that Covid has provided them with the perfect cover.


And I fully expect that, within two  generations, Covid will be forgotten, apart from the annual jab that the over 65s and certain others will get every year,  along with their flu jabs,  and the UK (or whatever is left of it), will be wanting to rejoin the EU.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on December 26, 2020, 11:20:33 PM

And I fully expect that, within two  generations, Covid will be forgotten, apart from the annual jab that the over 65s and certain others will get every year,  along with their flu jabs,  and the UK (or whatever is left of it), will be wanting to rejoin the EU.
I’m sure we will eventually apply to rejoin the EU too.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 24, 2021, 09:23:01 AM
Oh the joys of Brexit - one of my Dutch customers just had to pay 18 euros VAT and handling fee on an item that cost around 23 euros.  What a fabulous free trade deal Boris negotiated for us. 
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Wonderfulspam on February 24, 2021, 09:43:46 AM
Oh the joys of Brexit - one of my Dutch customers just had to pay 18 euros VAT and handling fee on an item that cost around 23 euros.  What a fabulous free trade deal Boris negotiated for us.

One wonders what you're trading in that's so incredibly unique that it can't be purchased in Dutch Land?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 24, 2021, 09:57:14 AM
One wonders what you're trading in that's so incredibly unique that it can't be purchased in Dutch Land?
Wonder away Spammy.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: G-Unit on February 24, 2021, 10:27:46 AM
Oh the joys of Brexit - one of my Dutch customers just had to pay 18 euros VAT and handling fee on an item that cost around 23 euros.  What a fabulous free trade deal Boris negotiated for us.

I assume it cost you 23 euros, not them? With a 21% vat rate the vat on 23 euros would have been less than 5 euros. I also assume you know purchases within the EU were never vat free?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 24, 2021, 10:34:01 AM
I assume it cost you 23 euros, not them? With a 21% vat rate the vat on 23 euros would have been less than 5 euros. I also assume you know purchases within the EU were never vat free?
I assume you know that prior to Brexit we could sell goods to the EU and the recipient would not have to pay VAT or a handling fee when the goods arrived?  I assume you know that we were promised a free trade deal with our European "friends and partners"?  FYI - the VAT paid by the customer was 4 euros 80cents plus a 17 euro handling fee.  If you think Brexit is good for small businesses like mine, think again.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: G-Unit on February 24, 2021, 12:08:30 PM
I assume you know that prior to Brexit we could sell goods to the EU and the recipient would not have to pay VAT or a handling fee when the goods arrived?  I assume you know that we were promised a free trade deal with our European "friends and partners"?  FYI - the VAT paid by the customer was 4 euros 80cents plus a 17 euro handling fee.  If you think Brexit is good for small businesses like mine, think again.

I don't know the nature of your business or whether you're vat registered. If you are, then you need to charge vat on your sales to EU countries. Handling fees are associated with both customs duties and vat. This covers goods bought in the UK from suppliers in the EU, but I expect it's relevant;

If customs charges are payable upon importation, Royal Mail will charge a handling fee to cover the costs for carrying out customs procedures, which includes paying any Customs Duty or VAT due and collecting it from you. If customs examination is required, or if information is missing from the declaration, Royal Mail will open, repack and reseal the package. All international courier and postal operators charge fees for their services. HMRC and Border Force do not have any authority over the level of charges applied for these services.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/notice-143-a-guide-for-international-post-users/notice-143-a-guide-for-international-post-users
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 24, 2021, 12:17:51 PM
I don't know the nature of your business or whether you're vat registered. If you are, then you need to charge vat on your sales to EU countries. Handling fees are associated with both customs duties and vat. This covers goods bought in the UK from suppliers in the EU, but I expect it's relevant;

If customs charges are payable upon importation, Royal Mail will charge a handling fee to cover the costs for carrying out customs procedures, which includes paying any Customs Duty or VAT due and collecting it from you. If customs examination is required, or if information is missing from the declaration, Royal Mail will open, repack and reseal the package. All international courier and postal operators charge fees for their services. HMRC and Border Force do not have any authority over the level of charges applied for these services.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/notice-143-a-guide-for-international-post-users/notice-143-a-guide-for-international-post-users
Thanks I know all that, my point is anyone in the EU buying anything from UK small businesses priced at over 21 euros is liable to face VAT and a large handling charge.  Obviously my customer in Holland is unlikely to ever purchase from me again if they know that their goods are likely to cost another 20 odd euros on top of the price they've already paid and will source their goods from within the EU in future.  How is this Brexit deal advantageous to small businesses like mine?  Once you've figured it out, do be sure to let me know, ta. 
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: G-Unit on February 24, 2021, 02:31:26 PM
Thanks I know all that, my point is anyone in the EU buying anything from UK small businesses priced at over 21 euros is liable to face VAT and a large handling charge.  Obviously my customer in Holland is unlikely to ever purchase from me again if they know that their goods are likely to cost another 20 odd euros on top of the price they've already paid and will source their goods from within the EU in future.  How is this Brexit deal advantageous to small businesses like mine?  Once you've figured it out, do be sure to let me know, ta.

It will also apply to people in the EU buying from large UK businesses, and to people in the UK buying goods from EU countries. In fact many large UK companies are not offering sales to EU countries at the moment.

As goods manufactured in the UK and ordered from the UK don't attract customs duty, selling British goods seems like a good idea.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 24, 2021, 03:01:45 PM
It will also apply to people in the EU buying from large UK businesses, and to people in the UK buying goods from EU countries. In fact many large UK companies are not offering sales to EU countries at the moment.

As goods manufactured in the UK and ordered from the UK don't attract customs duty, selling British goods seems like a good idea.
Very helpful I'm sure. 
It's clear to me that those who voted for Brexit didn't have a clue what it would mean in practical terms for trade between the EU and the UK and that they reallydon't care if it has a negative impact anyway.  As long as the "will of the people" was carried out, as long as "we got our sovereignty back", as long as we can now "control our borders", as long as we can "take back control" the rest can go to shit. 
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on February 24, 2021, 07:14:40 PM
Very helpful I'm sure. 
It's clear to me that those who voted for Brexit didn't have a clue what it would mean in practical terms for trade between the EU and the UK and that they reallydon't care if it has a negative impact anyway.  As long as the "will of the people" was carried out, as long as "we got our sovereignty back", as long as we can now "control our borders", as long as we can "take back control" the rest can go to shit.


The facts is there are winners and losers.  I don't buy Dutch goods at all- so saving money on my clogs and tulips!

After the initial shock the EU will come round and realise they have bit off their noses to spite their face- The jab and financial markets being just two wee embarrassing situations for them... The Germans envy us! The French want us to bail their euro tunnel business which will collaps... Not looking all the great on the other side of the  channel. Still wanna re join when other countries want to leave- EU -It will implode!
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Carana on April 16, 2021, 03:31:32 PM
Thanks I know all that, my point is anyone in the EU buying anything from UK small businesses priced at over 21 euros is liable to face VAT and a large handling charge.  Obviously my customer in Holland is unlikely to ever purchase from me again if they know that their goods are likely to cost another 20 odd euros on top of the price they've already paid and will source their goods from within the EU in future.  How is this Brexit deal advantageous to small businesses like mine?  Once you've figured it out, do be sure to let me know, ta.

Lucky you don't export cheese...
https://twitter.com/SimonJSpurrell

Or oysters... or...
https://www.npr.org/2021/04/02/983925042/the-impact-of-brexit-is-being-felt-across-britain-down-to-oysters-wine-and-chees

Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: G-Unit on May 08, 2021, 10:29:37 AM
Judging by the latest voting, it seems that Boris is still reaping his reward for being strong enough to deliver Brexit. The Labour Party is still reaping it's deserts for being unable to make the same decision.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on May 08, 2021, 05:07:36 PM
Judging by the latest voting, it seems that Boris is still reaping his reward for being strong enough to deliver Brexit. The Labour Party is still reaping it's deserts for being unable to make the same decision.
I think you mean desserts, though in this case deserts is probably more appropriate.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Erngath on May 08, 2021, 05:19:35 PM
Judging by the latest voting, it seems that Boris is still reaping his reward for being strong enough to deliver Brexit. The Labour Party is still reaping it's deserts for being unable to make the same decision.


Neither Boris or the Labour party are reaping any rewards here.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on May 08, 2021, 05:26:14 PM
Labour is no longer the party of the working class, it’s the party of students and middle class socialists who spend all day long virtue signalling about identity politics on social media.   And that is why they no longer win seats in places like Hartlepool because most people there are not students, are not middle class and don’t give a stuff about transgender rights. 
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: G-Unit on May 08, 2021, 05:56:33 PM

Neither Boris or the Labour party are reaping any rewards here.

Are you thinking of the UK or of the bit of it where you live?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: G-Unit on May 08, 2021, 06:03:28 PM
Labour is no longer the party of the working class, it’s the party of students and middle class socialists who spend all day long virtue signalling about identity politics on social media.   And that is why they no longer win seats in places like Hartlepool because most people there are not students, are not middle class and don’t give a stuff about transgender rights.

I agree. It was the Brexit issue which highlighted it as the Party publicly tore itself apart.

Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on May 08, 2021, 06:10:16 PM
I agree. It was the Brexit issue which highlighted it as the Party publicly tore itself apart.
The irony is Corbyn was a secret Brexit supporter.  He had the perfect opportunity to be true to himself and to voters and win the last election on a pledge to deliver Brexit but instead he had to fudge it to placate all the students and middle class socialist remainers who were the ones following him around the country massaging his ego and singing “Ooh, Jeremy Corbyn” at him as if he was the new messiah. 
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Carana on May 08, 2021, 06:46:58 PM
Aside from so-called "teething problems", 5 years on, I'm still bewildered as to what Brexit was intended to achieve.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on May 08, 2021, 07:02:45 PM
Aside from so-called "teething problems", 5 years on, I'm still bewildered as to what Brexit was intended to achieve.
I voted Remain, and have been in numerous Remainer versus Leaver discussions / arguments.  It is quite clear to me that in essence the only thing Brexit was intended to achieve was to stick two fingers up to Europe, borne out of a distrust and dislike of the EU, and of our neighbours’ conduct during WWII and for that mythical holy grail of “taking back control “.  It has certainly succeeded in the first objective, the second objective is less easy to pin down IMo but I suspect the majority of Brexiteers feel that this objective has also been successfully delivered.  And that’s it basically.  No Brexiteer cares if we are worse off as a result, or if trade declines, or if the Union is dissolved, they really REALLY don’t care.  It’s 100% ideological.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on May 08, 2021, 07:30:02 PM
Absolutely bang on the money from Janice Turner (a Labour voter herself)

For Labour, purity matters more than votes
Janice Turner
to the electorate,” says poor, honourable Sir Keir Starmer, an uneasy campaign show-pony, whose eyes filled last week saying he’d fight for every vote. But Labour won’t listen. Or it will take notes and nod along, then do what it always does: think it knows better. Why else pick a Remain zealot as your candidate in a seat like Hartlepool that voted 70-30 for Brexit? “Oh, they’re too thick to notice.”
The trouble for Labour is that the Conservative Party does listen. Not greatly attached to any version of itself, it shape-shifts to keep power. Is Thatcherism leaving a nasty-party taste? Try some liberal-consensus Cameron balm. Its most audacious trick is to present itself as the solution to the very problems it caused. For austerity-ravaged Tees Valley it offered Ben Houchen. A decade ago, George Osborne sought to privatise national forests and the blood bank but Houchen got the local airport back into public hands.

Yet he also champions a free port. Because Tories are pragmatic: state and private, pick and mix. Defending Corbyn’s legacy, John McDonnell noted that Boris Johnson had pinched his green energy deal and was quietly renationalising the railways. Of course! If it polls well, if it might actually work, Tories will steal it. The left, in its rigid ideological thinking, cannot grasp this magpie mindset. Instead, it believes “public sector good, private bad” while the vaccine programme’s success came from an alchemy between venture capital and the NHS.

Those saying red wall Tories are turkeys voting for Christmas should remember the same voters put up with decades of smooth, seat-seeking Labour special advisers who loved the fat Labour majorities of the north but couldn’t stand the locals. They were loyal dogs, to be thrown the odd investment bone. Brexit exposed Labour’s distaste for its own people and, long after Britain’s EU departure, it hangs like a smell.

No one votes for a party that hates you. Who does Labour love-bomb? The unemployed, the young, gig workers, the struggling, the poor. But in Hartlepool, houses are cheap: a couple with two average salaries can own a home and car. They want holidays, a new kitchen, a bottle of wine with dinner. They are “working class, middle class”: their lives aren’t comfortable but nor are they hell and, while they hope their kids go to university, they retain unfashionable values of patriotism, self-reliance, material aspiration.

Yet all they hear from Labour is chiding and judgment: they are not good enough, pure enough. Their cars cause the “environmental emergency”, their unfamiliarity with arcane language makes them bigots, their Brexit vote renders them deplorable ever more. So if a Tory candidate comes along, not only eager to be liked but able to secure Westminster cash for real stuff like factories or business parks, rather than just hashtags and rainbow flags, they’d be dumb not to listen. A red wall Tory must stay on his toes, might try harder to deliver, since he can’t take votes for granted — for now — or he’s out.

What was Labour for at these elections? It was against dodgy government procurement and Carrie’s wallpaper. Yet even in London, loyalists sighed as we set off to re-elect Mayor Khan. Normally sensible friends put Count Binface first, Labour second. A senior local government figure notes of the count’s vow to cap the price of croissants at a quid: “He has a better retail offer than Sadiq’s 100 pages of waffle.” Working with Khan “it was hard to know his passions, what he wanted to achieve”. Mutual hatred with Tory central government didn’t help, but “he never tried to reach out beyond party lines, which a mayor must do”. Such tribalism plays well in a Labour Party proud never to have kissed a Tory. Where are the woke points in co-operating with leaders of Conservative boroughs? Despite his lamentable record on knife crime and the Hammersmith Bridge chaos, Khan will win in young, diverse, graduate-heavy London.

To voters beyond, the ones Labour must convince, pragmatism is not only effective but hugely attractive. Yet it requires Labour Remainers to embrace Britain’s future rather than to harp on about the halcyon EU, like colonialists nostalgic for the Raj. Even more impossible it needs a warmer, less ideological message from its activist base. A common Twitter phrase is “get in the bin”. That’s where you belong if your views on immigration, gender or a myriad issues deviate from the line. Pretty soon, every voter will be in the bin.

The saddest thing is that out there somewhere is a young, brilliant, optimistic, inspiring, persuasive person, progressive but inclusive, warm but tough, who could lead Labour to victory. (A northerner would help.) But the very factors that make them electable to the country make them unselectable to the party. Sir Keir, who outwitted the hard left by keeping his moderate cards close, could yet be the best hope. To see another Labour victory, I might need, like my father, to live a long life.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: G-Unit on May 08, 2021, 08:50:36 PM
The irony is Corbyn was a secret Brexit supporter.  He had the perfect opportunity to be true to himself and to voters and win the last election on a pledge to deliver Brexit but instead he had to fudge it to placate all the students and middle class socialist remainers who were the ones following him around the country massaging his ego and singing “Ooh, Jeremy Corbyn” at him as if he was the new messiah.

When Blair became leader he unashamedly purged those who didn't agree with his 'New Labour' vision. Corbyn seemed to lack that killer instinct.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Erngath on May 08, 2021, 09:40:27 PM
Are you thinking of the UK or of the bit of it where you live?

Most definitely " the bit" where we  live.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on May 08, 2021, 10:00:28 PM
When Blair became leader he unashamedly purged those who didn't agree with his 'New Labour' vision. Corbyn seemed to lack that killer instinct.
It wasn’t the only thing he lacked IMO.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: barrier on May 09, 2021, 11:05:56 AM
I voted Remain, and have been in numerous Remainer versus Leaver discussions / arguments.  It is quite clear to me that in essence the only thing Brexit was intended to achieve was to stick two fingers up to Europe, borne out of a distrust and dislike of the EU, and of our neighbours’ conduct during WWII and for that mythical holy grail of “taking back control “.  It has certainly succeeded in the first objective, the second objective is less easy to pin down IMo but I suspect the majority of Brexiteers feel that this objective has also been successfully delivered.  And that’s it basically.  No Brexiteer cares if we are worse off as a result, or if trade declines, or if the Union is dissolved, they really REALLY don’t care.  It’s 100% ideological.

As is most policies from the governments of the day. Like or loath the tories and Johnson, he was elected to deliver brexit, he did, seems from the covid vaccination argument it was a wise decision. Going forward the economy looks to be on a steady course. Furlough will have to paid for, but the debt from ww2 took until 2006 to be paid, so long term isn't a problem.Seems like Brexit upsets the French the most.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: G-Unit on May 09, 2021, 09:49:48 PM
As is most policies from the governments of the day. Like or loath the tories and Johnson, he was elected to deliver brexit, he did, seems from the covid vaccination argument it was a wise decision. Going forward the economy looks to be on a steady course. Furlough will have to paid for, but the debt from ww2 took until 2006 to be paid, so long term isn't a problem.Seems like Brexit upsets the French the most.

We certainly benefitted from being out of the EU when it came to Covid. We were able to forge ahead and organise buying the vaccines without having to wait and are now way ahead of those who are still in the EU.
https://www.euronews.com/2021/05/07/covid-19-vaccinations-in-europe-which-countries-are-leading-the-way
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Carana on May 10, 2021, 08:42:43 AM
We certainly benefitted from being out of the EU when it came to Covid. We were able to forge ahead and organise buying the vaccines without having to wait and are now way ahead of those who are still in the EU.
https://www.euronews.com/2021/05/07/covid-19-vaccinations-in-europe-which-countries-are-leading-the-way

I don't find the situation clear-cut. Yes, the UK got a large number of doses before the EU, but it was still a member back in December, 2020. Any EU member was free to negotiate their own contract, but from what I can gather, most countries preferred to negotiate a collective deal to get the best price, whereas the UK decided to go it alone and pay a higher price.



EU law, not Brexit, sped up UK access to Covid vaccine
A closer look at a British minister’s claims that Brexit enabled the UK to be first to offer a vaccine shows that Britain has in fact relied on an EU law, France's public-service media explains
4 December 2020
By Liv Rowland

The UK’s health minister claimed in a radio interview that “thanks to Brexit” the UK will be first to start Covid vaccinations.

According to Matt Hancock, Brexit allowed the British regulator to take the authorisation decision so as not to “go at the pace of the Europeans, who are moving a little bit more slowly”.

However it is in fact due to European directive 2001/83/EC, transposed into UK law eight years ago as regulation 174 on medicines, that the fast authorisation was possible.

The approved vaccine is the same Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine that is expected to be shortly available in France. Being made in Germany and Belgium, it is going through a process of authorisation by the European Medicines Agency.

However the UK has bypassed this stage by relying on an EU law which allows a member state to temporarily authorise use of a non-approved medicine in a health emergency.

The use of an EU rule is confirmed on gov.uk, which stated last month: “Until the end of December, and as part of the transition period, vaccines must be authorised via the European Medicines Agency and that authorisation will automatically be valid in the UK.

"However, if a suitable COVID-19 vaccine candidate, with strong supporting evidence of safety, quality and effectiveness from clinical trials becomes available before the end of the transition period, EU legislation which we have implemented via Regulation 174 of the Human Medicines Regulations allows the MHRA [UK medicines regulator] to temporarily authorise the supply of a medicine or vaccine, based on public health need.”

The discrepancy was picked up by French state media FranceInfo, which said that “the British medicines agency could have taken its decision to authorise a vaccine against Covid-19, whether or not the country was a member of the EU".

Until December 31, due to the Brexit transition period, the UK must continue to follow all EU laws.

https://www.connexionfrance.com/French-news/Brexit/EU-law-not-Brexit-sped-up-UK-access-to-Covid-vaccine

More (other) details here:
Brexit Britain's victory over the EU on Covid vaccination is not what it seems
Jean Quatremer
Sun 14 Feb 2021 17.12 GMT
https://www.theguardian.com/world/commentisfree/2021/feb/14/brexit-britain-eu-covid-vaccination-fiasco
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Carana on May 10, 2021, 09:30:19 AM
As is most policies from the governments of the day. Like or loath the tories and Johnson, he was elected to deliver brexit, he did, seems from the covid vaccination argument it was a wise decision. Going forward the economy looks to be on a steady course. Furlough will have to paid for, but the debt from ww2 took until 2006 to be paid, so long term isn't a problem.Seems like Brexit upsets the French the most.

IMO, using the rollout of a Covid vaccine as an example of success to justify Brexit is more spin than fact.

Clearly the economy will pick up (or at least some parts of it), but compared to when? And will it be easy to distinguish between the negative effects of Covid and Brexit?

My crystal ball tells me that most things negative will be attributed to Covid and / or the nasty EU (as usual).

Some businesses will have a double whammy to deal with.

Example: A restaurant I know had to (temporarily) close due to Covid. Hopefully, they've been entitled to some sort of relief during this time. However, the restaurant specialized in Italian cuisine (using authentic Italian ingredients: different types of Italian dried meats, cheeses, etc). The hassle and cost of importing the ingredients post-Brexit has made them give up. Permanently.



Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: G-Unit on May 10, 2021, 12:31:16 PM
I don't find the situation clear-cut. Yes, the UK got a large number of doses before the EU, but it was still a member back in December, 2020. Any EU member was free to negotiate their own contract, but from what I can gather, most countries preferred to negotiate a collective deal to get the best price, whereas the UK decided to go it alone and pay a higher price.



EU law, not Brexit, sped up UK access to Covid vaccine
A closer look at a British minister’s claims that Brexit enabled the UK to be first to offer a vaccine shows that Britain has in fact relied on an EU law, France's public-service media explains
4 December 2020
By Liv Rowland

The UK’s health minister claimed in a radio interview that “thanks to Brexit” the UK will be first to start Covid vaccinations.

According to Matt Hancock, Brexit allowed the British regulator to take the authorisation decision so as not to “go at the pace of the Europeans, who are moving a little bit more slowly”.

However it is in fact due to European directive 2001/83/EC, transposed into UK law eight years ago as regulation 174 on medicines, that the fast authorisation was possible.

The approved vaccine is the same Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine that is expected to be shortly available in France. Being made in Germany and Belgium, it is going through a process of authorisation by the European Medicines Agency.

However the UK has bypassed this stage by relying on an EU law which allows a member state to temporarily authorise use of a non-approved medicine in a health emergency.

The use of an EU rule is confirmed on gov.uk, which stated last month: “Until the end of December, and as part of the transition period, vaccines must be authorised via the European Medicines Agency and that authorisation will automatically be valid in the UK.

"However, if a suitable COVID-19 vaccine candidate, with strong supporting evidence of safety, quality and effectiveness from clinical trials becomes available before the end of the transition period, EU legislation which we have implemented via Regulation 174 of the Human Medicines Regulations allows the MHRA [UK medicines regulator] to temporarily authorise the supply of a medicine or vaccine, based on public health need.”

The discrepancy was picked up by French state media FranceInfo, which said that “the British medicines agency could have taken its decision to authorise a vaccine against Covid-19, whether or not the country was a member of the EU".

Until December 31, due to the Brexit transition period, the UK must continue to follow all EU laws.

https://www.connexionfrance.com/French-news/Brexit/EU-law-not-Brexit-sped-up-UK-access-to-Covid-vaccine

More (other) details here:
Brexit Britain's victory over the EU on Covid vaccination is not what it seems
Jean Quatremer
Sun 14 Feb 2021 17.12 GMT
https://www.theguardian.com/world/commentisfree/2021/feb/14/brexit-britain-eu-covid-vaccination-fiasco

However it happened, the fact remains that the UK was able to get a head start. Obviously the French would be reluctant to applaud the fact that our government's decisions left the EU eating our dust.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: barrier on May 14, 2021, 06:41:18 PM
IMO, using the rollout of a Covid vaccine as an example of success to justify Brexit is more spin than fact.

Clearly the economy will pick up (or at least some parts of it), but compared to when? And will it be easy to distinguish between the negative effects of Covid and Brexit?

My crystal ball tells me that most things negative will be attributed to Covid and / or the nasty EU (as usual).

Some businesses will have a double whammy to deal with.

Example: A restaurant I know had to (temporarily) close due to Covid. Hopefully, they've been entitled to some sort of relief during this time. However, the restaurant specialized in Italian cuisine (using authentic Italian ingredients: different types of Italian dried meats, cheeses, etc). The hassle and cost of importing the ingredients post-Brexit has made them give up. Permanently.


The success is the vaccine, imo its not spin.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Carana on May 16, 2021, 05:37:26 PM

The success is the vaccine, imo its not spin.

I agree that the vaccine is a success (as are most of the other vaccines) and the rollout was indeed faster in the UK than in the EU. However, I still don't see how that qualifies as a so-called successful outcome of Brexit. Mystified over that one.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: barrier on May 16, 2021, 08:19:51 PM
I agree that the vaccine is a success (as are most of the other vaccines) and the rollout was indeed faster in the UK than in the EU. However, I still don't see how that qualifies as a so-called successful outcome of Brexit. Mystified over that one.

Would we have the same roll out if still tied to the EU.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: G-Unit on May 17, 2021, 08:02:05 AM
Would we have the same roll out if still tied to the EU.

No, we would have faced the delays that EU members suffered.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Carana on May 17, 2021, 09:58:02 AM
Would we have the same roll out if still tied to the EU.

AFAIK yes, reread the article posted above.

Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Carana on May 17, 2021, 10:29:48 AM
No, we would have faced the delays that EU members suffered.

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-brexit-did-not-speed-up-uk-vaccine-authorisation
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Carana on May 22, 2021, 09:31:50 AM
Government seeking adviser with a track record of being economical with the truth. A wild imagination would be an asset.

I can think of someone who fits the bill, except he currently has a different job and wouldn't qualify as "outside input".

Government to hire adviser to identify post-Brexit benefits
Author Picture Icon

Jonathon Read
Published: 8:42 AM May 18, 2021

Boris Johnson's administration is recruiting an external adviser to identify new opportunities following Brexit to demonstrate the benefits of the UK's departure from the European Union.

Almost five years on from the Brexit referendum result, the Tory government continues to struggle to demonstrate the tangible benefits of leaving the EU.

It has set former Tory leader Iain Duncan Smith in charge of how Britain can reshape the economy, but his task force is yet to publicly report back with suggestions.

Now Brexit negotiator David Frost - now tasked with shaping the UK's post-Brexit with the EU, has revealed the government is looking to hire someone to demonstrate the opportunities.

Speaking to a committee of MPs, he said: “We have high hopes of outside input into this process. We’re all fully behind making things happen.”

MORE: How Brexit has turned sour for the dairy industry

MORE: Post-Brexit EU worker exodus hits restaurants and pubs

MORE: Boris Johnson consumed by infighting as Brexit job losses worsen

He said those opportunities could come from financial services regulation, reform to agricultural subsidies, and speeding up clinical trials of drugs. Frost also pointed to subsidy control, changing procurement rules, and freeports where there will be imminent change.

“It’s a huge advantage to a country to be able to design its own laws,” he said. “It is really important that we exercise that freedom in as useful and productive a way we can.”

Commenting on the new role to identify post-Brexit opportunities, former Tory cabinet minister David Gauke tweeted: "Nearly five years after the referendum and the search continues."

"Unbelievable - shouldn't the government have identified opportunities BEFORE they dragged us out of the EU?" asked former civil servant Siobhan Benita.
https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/brexit-news/westminster-news/boris-johnson-brexit-adviser-7980212
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: barrier on May 22, 2021, 10:04:12 AM
Government seeking adviser with a track record of being economical with the truth. A wild imagination would be an asset.

I can think of someone who fits the bill, except he currently has a different job and wouldn't qualify as "outside input".

Martin Bashir.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Carana on May 28, 2021, 09:25:18 AM
Martin Bashir.

Lol. Not the (former) journalist I had in mind...
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: faithlilly on October 12, 2021, 10:55:25 PM
https://www.newstatesman.com/comment/2021/10/from-germany-the-uk-appears-ever-more-dysfunctional-and-absurd
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Carana on October 13, 2021, 03:41:35 PM
https://www.newstatesman.com/comment/2021/10/from-germany-the-uk-appears-ever-more-dysfunctional-and-absurd

"Viewed from Berlin, Britain appears ever more dysfunctional and absurd." I'd suggest that that view isn't exclusive to Berlin.

Worramess.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Carana on October 13, 2021, 03:53:21 PM
https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-eu-to-set-out-practical-solutions-as-uk-demands-changes-to-northern-ireland-protocol-12432447

If it's not the ECJ, which other body should arbitrate?

I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me how the UK is better off outside the EU.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 13, 2021, 11:42:19 PM
https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-eu-to-set-out-practical-solutions-as-uk-demands-changes-to-northern-ireland-protocol-12432447

If it's not the ECJ, which other body should arbitrate.

I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me how the UK is better off outside the EU.
1) we got our sovereignty back
erm, that’s it.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Carana on October 14, 2021, 09:53:25 AM
1) we got our sovereignty back
erm, that’s it.

- In which ways was the UK not sovereign (bearing in mind that it was a major participant in common rule-making)? - In which ways has this newly-regained "sovereignty" improved lives?