The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!

[Aiofe]

Doesn't work like that I'm afraid. Do you honestly think the defence would have accepted anything less than a complete DNA match?

The defence has no option other than to accept what the Judge finds. It is not an adversarial system

[John]

The defence has no option other than to accept what the Judge finds. It is not an adversarial system

What?  ...and not shout about it outside Court?

Even Leonor herself accepted that it was Joana's blood and tried to explain it away.

[sadie]

Doesn't work like that I'm afraid. Do you honestly think the defence would have accepted anything less than a complete DNA match?

There wasn't a DNA match tho was there?

From what I have read, PT didn't have the necessary nouse at the time.

In fact in some reports it has been said that the PJ didn't even know if it was animal blood or human.

The Silvas/Ciprianos kept pigs. 

1) Amaral says that Leonor and Joao fed Joanas parts to the pigs, having kept them in their fridge


2)  Well Amaral says that, or else some days, he says that Joao took the partas away in a bag to dispose of them


or
3)  THe body was left in a car and taken to Spain to be crushed in a car crusher


or
4)  The body was hidden in the hills



Eeny, meeny, miny, moe

[Eleanor]

One of The Judges refused to convict Leonor and had it on record that he thought she was innocent.

Ask Luz.  She posted up that information many moons ago.

[sadie]

What?  ...and not shout about it outside Court?

Even Leonor herself accepted that it was Joana's blood and tried to explain it away.

Leonor was tortured and in fear of it again.  She will  say what she is told to say.


Would you challenge a Court ruling in a Fascist system?  I wouldn't.  Better to go to jail than have half your life beaten out of you.

[Carana]

Blood found and DNA linked to Joana...

ac) traces of blood from the minor remained on the living room’s walls and floor, on various spots, and also near the entrance;

an) each one of those body parts was placed inside plastic bags – the head in one, the torso and part of the legs in another and the two legs below the knee in a third one – and after they knotted up the opening of the bag that contained the head, they tried, at least, to place said bags inside the deep freezer’s three compartments, leaving blood from the minor on several areas inside the deep freezer’s second drawer;

aad) on the 18th of September, arguida BB bought petrol and a steel scrub-cloth, with which she washed the house, thus seizing the opportunity to erase almost all vestiges of what had happened there, and only traces of human blood which had been contaminated by the products that were used, remained inside the house;

Have you found any DNA evidence related to the crime scene that is identified as being Joana's?


You may have also missed this section:

The matter that was considered to be proved in items aa), ab), ac), ad), ae), af), ag), ah) ai), aj) al), am), an), ap), aah), aai), aaj) and aam) was based on the deposition of witnesses AA3, CC3, CC4, DD, CC8, II, DD1 , MM and BB1, on the reconstitution files and on the search and apprehension files, as well as on the subsequent forensic exam, all interpreted under the light of the rules of experience.

[Carana]

@ John

From what I've read on here, you're a former policeman, and a victim of a miscarriage of justice yourself. Don't you see the gaping holes in the so-called evidence?

[Redblossom]

Ah, that must be it! Only this blonde child though. Must usually just look....blonde....

her hair was slightly fairer when younger, but when she went missing and or killed her hair was dark brown...obvious from all the latter photos....so not a blonde girl.....by any stretch

[John]

justice Portuguese style

Blood from the room was tested and no match found..its I the court reports

Still waiting on these Court Reports Dave.

[Mr Gray]

Still waiting on these Court Reports Dave.

im off to a bonfire with the kids...will post it tomorrow...  red provided the link a couple of days ago..ive already posted it once

[John]

im off to a bonfire with the kids...will post it tomorrow...  red provided the link a couple of days ago..ive already posted it once

Fair enough, maybe Redblossom will post it.  It will be interesting to see the difference between the two Courts.

[Carana]

The defence has no option other than to accept what the Judge finds. It is not an adversarial system

What were the defence arguments in this case? What counter evidence was provided? How many defence witnesses were there? Who was living in that house when this body was supposed to have been chopped and stuffed into the fridge? What would have been required for a pro-bono defence attorney to point out that unidentified traces of blood of human and animal origin on, e.g., the broom handle, or even in the back of a fridge drawer did not actually provide evidence of a massacre as opposed to a nicked finger whilst doing housework at some point?

[John]

@ John

From what I've read on here, you're a former policeman, and a victim of a miscarriage of justice yourself. Don't you see the gaping holes in the so-called evidence?

There isn't really any gaping holes, lots of circumstantial granted and room for doubt certainly.  Do remember that João Cipriano (Leonor's brother) admitted in the presence of his lawyer to killing Joana and he wasn't being 'tortured' on that occasion as Sadie would claim.

I believe his words were, "I didn't beat her, I just killed her!"

[Carana]

Still waiting on these Court Reports Dave.

On the other hand, the actions that are part of the reconstitution act are compatible with the blood traces that were collected in the living room (it should be noted that the reconstitution takes place in the living room), as a result of the search and apprehension act that was carried out on the 22th of September 2004 (cfr. pages 173 and 233 and following), which mentions that traces were collected on the floor, near the entrance door, inside and outside, near the interior electrical switch on the right hand side of the entrance door, near the entrance on the left hand side of the sofa, on a pair of trainers belonging to MM [Leandro] Silva that were located between the sofas, on a mop (handle) and its bucket.

These traces, according to forensics exams, are of human blood and of human and animal blood (cfr. page 235), and although insufficient to establish whom they belong to through the DNA (pages 1780 and following), they reveal that something terrible happened in that living room, something that originated the existence of human blood on the floor and on the walls, which was cleaned with a mop and a bucket; the blood that was on the mop was located on the handle, revealing that the person who used the mop had in turn his or her hands dirty with blood. Therefore, the traces that were collected in the living room reinforce the reliability of the reconstitution.


(...)

Therefore, we cannot conclude with certainty that the body, or all parts of the minor’s body were placed inside the deep freezer, but that at least they tried to place it in there, results not only from the reconstitution act, but also from the fact that on the 16th of October 2004, human blood samples were collected from the back interior of the freezer’s second drawer (cfr. Page 585), which was again confirmed by the report of the examination that was performed by the LPC [Scientific Police Lab] (pages 1780 and following, with special attention to pages 1786 (item B) and 1792). It is further recalled that witness CC3 explained that the blood traces that were collected from the inside of the drawer were located precisely on the back panel of the freezer’s second drawer. Now if one should consider the possibility that the human blood that was found could have resulted from the handling of the deep freezer by someone who had a cut to his or her hand, the fact that the human blood was found inside the back part of the drawer sets that possibility aside and points towards the conclusion that a human body part was placed there, or an attempt was made.


Where does it say that her blood was found? Even if it had been, what forensic examinations had been conducted that could conclude that she had come to grief as opposed to even helping her mum to mop a floor or put away groceries in the fridge?

[Redblossom]

the only links I have posted are these...4 for the supreme court ruling and the last one some statement from the mother in 2009 presumably linked with some kind of appeal


http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/07/supreme-court-of-justice-joana-case.html

http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/07/supreme-court-of-justice-joana-case_13.html

http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/07/supreme-court-of-justice-joana-case_5147.html

http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/07/supreme-court-of-justice-joana-case_15.html

http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/01/translation-of-leonor-ciprianos.html

The blog these came from has a whole section, click on menu near the top,  on the case where there are many  more links to both news reports and other court affairs.....