The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!

[Mr Gray]

So here's what i don't understand about the alleged torture by the PJ of  Cipriano.

Who would (and especially coppers) inflict such obvious bruisings and markings on someone?

PJ officers would know that for them to inflict such a beating and to leave such visible injuries would leave them wide open to prosecution personally and potentially render their case against Cipriano unsafe.

If you want to torture a confession out of someone you do it without leaving marks and bruisings which can come back and haunt you.

What you don't do is do it in such a way that all the world can see your handywork. That makes no sense whatsoever.

they knew they could get away with it and they did. if you look at other cases they take years to come to court

[Wonderfulspam]

IMO You would if you had no idea the world was going to see your handywork and it had worked in the past.
Policemen stick together (the world over) and generally don't grass on oneanother.       But when they tortured LC  - they had no idea that the Director of the Prison was going to put a spanner in their works by refusing to be part of the proposed cover up to 'share' the blame for LCs horrific injuries -  by agreeing to say LC had made a suicide attempt at the police station and had also been beaten up by inmates in the prison.   

IMO that brave Prison Director did Portugal a huge favour that day.

Policemen stick together (the world over) and generally don't grass on oneanother.   

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Ian_Tomlinson

http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/1999/10/pol-o29.html&sa=U&ei=JtiEUu_9OZGyhAeq2oCgBw&ved=0CCoQFjAFOB4&sig2=Gt-NZ7tLko_SYrTU4kx38A&usg=AFQjCNHvGIde2BtF1HZPVPRv0FBmGCgRRA

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1198227/How-British-police-colluded-torture-terror-suspects.html

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2010/oct/11/northern-ireland-terrorists-miscarriages-justice

http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/100-payout-to-police-torture-victim-7737480.html&sa=U&ei=uNCEUtb8OZKrhAeE5oDIDA&ved=0CCUQFjAC&sig2=-yG0fg8OZPxwAg2q1Zq9CQ&usg=AFQjCNHO6XpL22t0J_9xsm170RBk-9PvaA

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillsborough_disaster

[Albertini]

they knew they could get away with it and they did. if you look at other cases they take years to come to court

But they didn't get away with it, did they?

Which negates your argument and point.

[Benice]

Again it doesn't make sense. If you are going to beat someone black and blue you make sure you have everyone needed to cover it up on board before you do it.

You don't do it and then try and corrupt everyone after the event.

To suggest a defendant in a murder trial wouldn't expose the beating to the world is nonsensical as well. It would provide a defence to the allegations.

So there is no sense in the PJ doing it they way that has been alleged. There is however perfect logic as to why a defendant in a murder trail would allege it though, isn't there?

I can only speculate that in the past - everyone was on board - and they all covered one another's backs - against the claims of one person  - and their word as trusted policemen was almost automatically taken as the true version of events - over that of any potential criminal imo.

I do not see the logic of a Prison Director deliberately lying and taking a course of action knowing that it would jeopardise the careers and lives of several police officers, especially in the certain knowledge that they were innocent.    That makes no sense to me.

It was not a case of one person's word against another.    The Director obviously had sufficient irrefutable evidence to prove that LC's injuries were not caused by the inmates of her prison - and which the PJ could not disprove. 

As far as I know neither Amaral nor any other police officer has protested or accused her of perjuring herself or claimed that she was responsible for their 'wrongful' conviction.         

[Albertini]

Hmmm. Would it? As far as I'm aware there wasn't any video recording of people taken in for questioning (from beginning to end), so how could anything be proven one way or the other?

Yes it would, there are other forms of torture which don't leave marks and which don't open the protagonists up to prosecution.

Cipriano had a lawyer representing her who would and did take photos.

To brazenly and so visibly expose themselves for potential prosecution makes no sense.

You cannot hide those bruises can you?

I do not accept that coppers in Portugal would be so stupid as to leave such obvious signs of torture for all the world to see.

[Albertini]

I can only speculate that in the past - everyone was on board - and they all covered one another's backs - against the claims of one person  - and their word as trusted policemen was almost automatically taken as the true version of events - over that of any potential criminal imo.

I do not see the logic of a Prison Director deliberately lying and taking a course of action knowing that it would jeopardise the careers and lives of several police officers, especially in the certain knowledge that they were innocent.    That makes no sense to me.

It was not a case of one person's word against another.    The Director obviously had sufficient irrefutable evidence to prove that LC's injuries were not caused by the inmates of her prison - and which the PJ could not disprove. 

As far as I know neither Amaral nor any other police officer has protested or accused her of perjuring herself or claimed that she was responsible for their 'wrongful' conviction.       

But the prison director had a vested interest didn't he? He was trying to protect the reputation of his prison and deflect any guilt away from his own position as the director of that prison.

He had as much reason to lie as Cipriano as it could have been his neck on the line if it was proven it happened under his watch.

ETA What proof could he have that the beating didn't happen in his prison? He would be taking his own officers on their word (unless he somehow-impossibly and implausibly- had managed to get a confession out of the PJ officers).

Funny, isn't that what Amaral was convicted for? Taking the words of others at face value.

[AnneGuedes]

Yes it would, there are other forms of torture which don't leave marks and which don't open the protagonists up to prosecution.

Cipriano had a lawyer representing her who would and did take photos.

To brazenly and so visibly expose themselves for potential prosecution makes no sense.

You cannot hide those bruises can you?

I do not accept that coppers in Portugal would be so stupid as to leave such obvious signs of torture for all the world to see.

Of course, but some posters here have a curious idea of what Portugal is, which is acceptable. The unacceptable is the insistance in sticking to that curious idea.

Obviously someone had interest in exhibiting Mrs Cipriano in that state and it's certainly not the PJ.

[colombosstogey]

Well seems you have buried you head so deeply in the sand that you cant see the likely relevance of three fair haired little girls vanishing from an area no more than about 18 miles across in a period of less than 3 years

Joana C, Carolina S and Madeleine M

Luckily SY had sharper brains than yours, Lyall, and came back to me about these abdiuctions and the sightings.

Well firstly Joana IF she did get snatched by a stranger was in 2004, 3 years BEFORE the McCann child.

May I please just interject here about Carolina Stantos....she never VANISHED.

From the Diario De Noticias of May 25, 2007.
 
A 30 years old man, from Morocco, threatened to kidnap the three year old daughter of a woman who rents a coffee-shop at Fonte de Luzeiros, between Silves and São Bartolomes de Messines." and that the "kidnap threat was made, last Tuesday".

There was no actual attempt at kidnapping Carolina Santos, only a threat, and that it all happened after Madeleine was snatched, not four months beforehand.

The Diário de Notícias goes on to say that the woman "filed a complaint with GNR from Silves the next day, and was contacted yesterday by investigators from Polícia Judiciária, to whom she told what happened."

The newspaper then said that after "Talking with local residents" they "found that the man in question is a street seller and a well known trouble maker and was drunk and got into an argument with a local cafe owner."


End of.

So as the saying goes move along there is nothing to see here lol...

[colombosstogey]

Of course, but some posters here have a curious idea of what Portugal is, which is acceptable. The unacceptable is the insistance in sticking to that curious idea.

Obviously someone had interest in exhibiting Mrs Cipriano in that state and it's certainly not the PJ.

People in prison in Britain and even the states if they go in as child killers etc usually go into solitary confinement for fear of them being harmed.

What what I have read about this so called beating first of there was no BRUISES the day LC confessed to her lawyer....etc....but there were when she was in prison.

It was mooted she was beaten by a prisoner. Good on her I say, she should have done a better job.

If i WAS in prison with this evil witch, I think I would have found it hard to contain myself.

To get a confession out of someone is easy using the right methods which would NOT SHOW UP...

Again this thread just keeps rolling along because of AMARAL the evil one lol....

[colombosstogey]

oh yes... i didnt know LC had said that, but she has said so many different thngs...as for the caylee anthony case, Im really struggling go understand how the grandmother said caylee died in her home  in the swimming pool....but her body was found decaying in the woods....why is she not being investigated if her daughter has been found innocent? Strange

I thought CA told her defence lawyer her father abused her from a child, and when CA found her daughter in the swimming pool he dealt with the body....eeeekkkkk. I dont believe it, YET although he denied all this in court he still allowed her to stay with them when she came out of prison.

I think the whole case was just stinky like the Cipriano case, so many lies and changes of statements...fair makes your head spin lol.

[Benice]

But the prison director had a vested interest didn't he? He was trying to protect the reputation of his prison and deflect any guilt away from his own position as the director of that prison.

He had as much reason to lie as Cipriano as it could have been his neck on the line if it was proven it happened under his watch.

ETA What proof could he have that the beating didn't happen in his prison? He would be taking his own officers on their word (unless he somehow-impossibly and implausibly- had managed to get a confession out of the PJ officers).

Funny, isn't that what Amaral was convicted for? Taking the words of others at face value.

The judges in this case were obviously very satisfied with the Director's evidence as they concluded from it  that  LC had been tortured by members of the PJ whilst in their custody and did not believe she was beaten up by inmates.   

I don't believe by any stretch of the imagination that the Court would have come to that decision lightly - as it does not reflect well on their own police force.       That leads me to believe that the evidence must have been very compelling and the PJ had no defence against it.

[colombosstogey]

You need help for this obsession guys. Go and make a website and campaign for her if you're so sure of your facts. That might be useful, but it doesn't help her posting the same things day after day here.

And it's got nothing to do with what happened on May 3 2007 to Madeleine.

 

Well done Lyall I said the same. Start a petition why not FREE CIPRIANO she is INNOCENT of all charges.

Please go ahead all of you who want her freed, here is a link:

I am sure you will be bombarded by signatures 

https://www.change.org/start-a-petition

[Lyall]

Well said, Colombo.

[stephen25000]

Well done Lyall I said the same. Start a petition why not FREE CIPRIANO she is INNOCENT of all charges.

Please go ahead all of you who want her freed, here is a link:

I am sure you will be bombarded by signatures 

https://www.change.org/start-a-petition

 

[sadie]

But the prison director had a vested interest didn't he? He was trying to protect the reputation of his prison and deflect any guilt away from his own position as the director of that prison.

He had as much reason to lie as Cipriano as it could have been his neck on the line if it was proven it happened under his watch.

ETA What proof could he have that the beating didn't happen in his prison? He would be taking his own officers on their word (unless he somehow-impossibly and implausibly- had managed to get a confession out of the PJ officers).

Funny, isn't that what Amaral was convicted for? Taking the words of others at face value.

A dollup of logic wouldn't come amiss here Albertini.

So the Prison Director allows? doesn't prevent a prisoner being torture?

And then calls in a Doctor and arranges for photographs to be taken which she releases to the world?



Come on, Albertini. get your thinking cap on.  Had that torture taken place on her watch, those photographs would never have been allowed.

Let alone released to the authorities and promoted.


And why did Leonor say that the PJ had done the torture if the prison Governor, officers or inmates had.  She would HATE all those people and want to see them punished.

How come that she says it was the PJ? 


You seem quite intelligent Albertini.   FGS get your brain in  gear.

Had the torture happened in prison, those photos would never have been taken, nor released.