UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: John on November 09, 2018, 02:23:18 PM
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Question for this weekend.
Should the McCanns be expending their time and energy searching for Madeleine instead of wasting money on futile law suits?
Your views please.
63
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In my opinion one is as futile as the other.
If a well-funded professional investigation such as Operation Grange cannot come up with the goods, what chance has an amateur enterprise got ?
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Question for this weekend.
Should the McCanns be expending their time and energy searching for Madeleine instead of wasting money on futile law suits?
Your views please.
I dint think they had any choice other than to counter amarals allegations
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Clearly they should, but how? Their method has been to ask others to search rather than to search themselves. Private detectives, the worldwide public and Operation Grange have all tried to no avail. What more could they do?
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In my opinion one is as futile as the other.
If a well-funded professional investigation such as Operation Grange cannot come up with the goods, what chance has an amateur enterprise got ?
I disagree jassi. We all know that many people in Portugal view their police force with some trepidation given the past so in my view a civilian exercise might just get that little bit further. I certainly feel that every avenue should be explored in the search for Madeleine, something which has sadly been lacking in the last few years.
There is every possibility that someone somewhere knows more than they are letting on so appealing to their better nature might just achieve some success. The other thing about a civilian initiative is that guarantees of anonymity can be given to informers for their protection against press intrusion.
IMO the police will never solve this case by knocking on doors and hauling people in for interviews. This case will only be solved if someone freely comes forward with credible information.
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I disagree jassi. We all know that many people in Portugal view their police force with some trepidation given the past so in my view a civilian exercise might just get that little bit further. I certainly feel that every avenue should be explored in the search for Madeleine, something which has sadly been lacking in the last few years.
There is every possibility that someone somewhere knows more than they are letting on so appealing to their better nature might just achieve some success. The other thing about a civilian initiative is that guarantees of anonymity can be given to informers for their protection against press intrusion.
IMO the police will never solve this case by knocking on doors and hauling people in for interviews. This case will only be solved if someone freely comes forward with credible information.
In my opinion anyone with credible information who knew that it was credible would have come forward by now.
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I disagree jassi. We all know that many people in Portugal view their police force with some trepidation given the past so in my view a civilian exercise might just get that little bit further. I certainly feel that every avenue should be explored in the search for Madeleine, something which has sadly been lacking in the last few years.
There is every possibility that someone somewhere knows more than they are letting on so appealing to their better nature might just achieve some success. The other thing about a civilian initiative is that guarantees of anonymity can be given to informers for their protection against press intrusion.
IMO the police will never solve this case by knocking on doors and hauling people in for interviews. This case will only be solved if someone freely comes forward with credible information.
What do you suggest the McCanns actually do then, in practical terms?
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Question for this weekend.
Should the McCanns be expending their time and energy searching for Madeleine instead of wasting money on futile law suits?
Your views please.
Sadly they have to clear the propaganda out that is engulfing them. They need to keep their IMO good (excellent) names in order to stand a chance in what is in my opinion, this evil propaganda war set against them.
If litigation is the only way, so be it. Nobody lightly takes to the Law becos there is an old saying the "The Law is an ASS", and nobody can be absolutely certain what the end result will be.
IMO
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What do you suggest the McCanns actually do then, in practical terms?
It doesn't really matter what they do, someone will find fault with it.
Searching On The Ground was never a serious option.
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Searching underground might be 8(0(*
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Searching underground might be 8(0(*
How were The McCanns supposed to do that?
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Searching underground might be 8(0(*
Nice.
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Searching underground might be 8(0(*
You might be nearer than you think there jassi
Perhaps living over ground in a high wall enclosed place with ancient underground links to other places, might be nearer the truth.
Lots of countries have a network of linking places underground.
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This is probably off topic, but is it true the police didn't go door to door after Madeleine disappeared?
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Sadly they have to clear the propaganda out that is engulfing them. They need to keep their IMO good (excellent) names in order to stand a chance in this IMO evil propaganda war set against them.
If litigation is the only way, so be it. Nobody lightly takes to the Law becos there is an old saying the "The Law is an ASS", and nobody can be absolutely certain what the end result will be.
IMO
Complaining about Portugal to the ECHR might not be the best way to go if they plan to appeal for help from the Portuguese people.
Allowing their employees to talk about the 'lawless villages' in the Algarve...ditto
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What do you suggest the McCanns actually do then, in practical terms?
I would love to see an answer to this.
I remember asking the same question to sceptics on the old Sky forum and not one answer appeared.
So the McCanns fly to Portugal and go where to look for their daughter?
Search the streets of PDL, search empty properties which apparently one cannot do without the owners consent.
Or perhaps go elsewhere in Portugal?
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Complaining about Portugal to the ECHR might not be the best way to go if they plan to appeal for help from the Portuguese people.
Allowing their employees to talk about the 'lawless villages' in the Algarve...ditto
They are not complaining against Portugal... It's the Portuguese justice system
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This is probably off topic, but is it true the police didn't go door to door after Madeleine disappeared?
I do hope not.
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They are not complaining against Portugal... It's the Portuguese justice system
No, they have supposedly brought an action against Portugal.
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They are not complaining against Portugal... It's the Portuguese justice system
Quite a lot of The Portuguese People aren't very keen on The Portuguese Justice System it would seem.
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Quite a lot of The Portuguese People aren't very keen on The Portuguese Justice System it would seem.
I didn't know that. Could you possibly point me to the source of the information please?
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No, they have supposedly brought an action against Portugal.
Semantics... Not against the Portuguese people but their justice system
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I didn't know that. Could you possibly point me to the source of the information please?
You would have to read some of the comments from old newspaper articles in Portugal.
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Does anyone have a suggestion of how Madeleine's parents could realistically search for Madeleine in Portugal?
Did anyone believe that by employing private detectives to look for her, they really were just pretending to look for her, with full knowledge that they had hidden her body?
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I didn't know that. Could you possibly point me to the source of the information please?
Here’s 9000 of them not too keen on Portuguese justice... http://portugalresident.com/over-9000-call-for-an-end-to-“crimes-against-honour”
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Here’s 9000 of them not too keen on Portuguese justice... http://portugalresident.com/over-9000-call-for-an-end-to-“crimes-against-honour”
Protesting about people being sent to prison for defamation, apparently. So 9,000 Portuguese citizens want more freedom of expression. Good for them.
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In my opinion anyone with credible information who knew that it was credible would have come forward by now.
I used to think that, but I can see why some people wouldn't.
Anyone in an "awkward" situation (having an affair, for example), to various degrees of illegality (someone without valid papers); someone who'd commited a crime of some description); someone who'd personally done nothing wrong but just had a suspicion about a friend, family member, employer; someone who was simply terrified of being stitched up by simply reporting a suspicion or evidence, or even didn't want their name leaked for other personal or professional reasons with reporters doorsteppinng them and their names splashed on every tabloid.
Media leaks certainly can't have helped. Nor is the uncertainty of whether one could be prosecuted for an unrelated dismeanor that could have come out in the wash.
What would happen to someone who was, e.g., an unwittinng accomplice? How could they know whether they'd face prosecution or not?
A few years ago, a teenager died during a party at someone's house as a result of drugs. The other kids clammed up. The police publicly assured them that they wouldn't be prosecuted for having also taken illegal drugs, but simply wanted them to come forward with any information. I can't remember much more about the case, but I think that some of the teens did actually come forward in the end.
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I used to think that, but I can see why some people wouldn't.
Anyone in an "awkward" situation (having an affair, for example), to various degrees of illegality (someone without valid papers); someone who'd commited a crime of some description); someone who'd personally done nothing wrong but just had a suspicion about a friend, family member, employer; someone who was simply terrified of being stitched up by simply reporting a suspicion or evidence, or even didn't want their name leaked for other personal or professional reasons with reporters doorsteppinng them and their names splashed on every tabloid.
Media leaks certainly can't have helped. Nor is the uncertainty of whether one could be prosecuted for an unrelated dismeanor that could have come out in the wash.
What would happen to someone who was, e.g., an unwittinng accomplice? How could they know whether they'd face prosecution or not?
A few years ago, a teenager died during a party at someone's house as a result of drugs. The other kids clammed up. The police publicly assured them that they wouldn't be prosecuted for having also taken illegal drugs, but simply wanted them to come forward with any information. I can't remember much more about the case, but I think that some of the teens did actually come forward in the end.
I don't believe the McCanns would be able to give any such person the confidence to come forward. Everything they or their Private Investigators learned seemed to end up being reported in the media.
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I don't believe the McCanns would be able to give any such person the confidence to come forward. Everything they or their Private Investigators learned seemed to end up being reported in the media.
In my opinion the knowledge that statements given to the Portuguese police might one day end up publicised in the very public domain of the internet might act as a deterrent and prevent some coming forward with information.
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Protesting about people being sent to prison for defamation, apparently. So 9,000 Portuguese citizens want more freedom of expression. Good for them.
Ironic isn’t it, what a bunch of hypocritical twerps within the Portuguese judiciary.
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I don't believe the McCanns would be able to give any such person the confidence to come forward. Everything they or their Private Investigators learned seemed to end up being reported in the media.
You think they were responsible for leaks pinpointing individuals to the media? Not as far as I'm aware.
ETA: Neither were they responsible for the files ending up unredacted on the Internet, AFAIK, unless you know differently.
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You think they were responsible for leaks pinpointing individuals to the media? Not as far as I'm aware.
ETA: Neither were they responsible for the files ending up unredacted on the Internet, AFAIK, unless you know differently.
According to Peter Hill the McCann 'side' leaked continuously. I certainly wouldn't trust them to keep things confidential.
The fact of the matter is that there was a news story every day and both sides in this particular case were briefing and leaking all the time, every day; every single day people were being briefed by one side and the other side.
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200910/cmselect/cmcumeds/362/9042803.htm
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In my opinion anyone with credible information who knew that it was credible would have come forward by now.
People with information often come forward many years after an event and after those involved have moved away, ceased to be a threat or have even died. It seems that the passage of time can be advantageous in certain circumstances.
We keep seeing historical cases in England where new digs are being carried out. The information for these digs can only be coming from informers.
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According to Peter Hill the McCann 'side' leaked continuously. I certainly wouldn't trust them to keep things confidential.
The fact of the matter is that there was a news story every day and both sides in this particular case were briefing and leaking all the time, every day; every single day people were being briefed by one side and the other side.
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200910/cmselect/cmcumeds/362/9042803.htm
Bolton also said on the 10th anniversary Panorama that someone from the McCann team asked him to dig up anything derogatory on Murat for extra access to them. Dirty business in anyone’s book.
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Does anyone have a suggestion of how Madeleine's parents could realistically search for Madeleine in Portugal?
Did anyone believe that by employing private detectives to look for her, they really were just pretending to look for her, with full knowledge that they had hidden her body?
They need to set up a search centre but this search would be for information. Somebody knows what happened to Madeleine McCann and where she now is. If the right approach is used there is every reason to believe someone will provide that information anonymously.
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People with information often come forward many years after an event and after those involved have moved away, ceased to be a threat or have even died. It seems that the passage of time can be advantageous in certain circumstances.
We keep seeing historical cases in England where new digs are being carried out. The information for these digs can only be coming from informers.
They’ve been looking for Suzy Lamplugh’s remains for over a week now, on a tip off from a convicted criminal...
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According to Peter Hill the McCann 'side' leaked continuously. I certainly wouldn't trust them to keep things confidential.
The fact of the matter is that there was a news story every day and both sides in this particular case were briefing and leaking all the time, every day; every single day people were being briefed by one side and the other side.
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200910/cmselect/cmcumeds/362/9042803.htm
According to Peter Hill once Kate and Gerry were made arguidos they were bound by the secrecy laws from defending themselves against the leaks from the Portuguese police ...
Snip
Mr Hill: That is a very, very good question.
In this particular case, as I explained to you, the Portuguese police were unable, because of the legal restrictions in Portugal, to make any official comment on the case.
What happened was that they resorted to leaking things to the Portuguese press.
We did our best to check up on these things but of course it was not very easy to do so.
We always put the stories to Mr and Mrs McCann's PR team but most of the time the people they had then, after the McCann's had been named as suspects, did not return our calls.
So this was a more difficult situation than any of us had ever encountered. Yes, there was a clamour for information and we did our best to provide it. Of course we do check as thoroughly as we can. Newspapers operate at very high speed and it is quite true that sometimes it is not possible to check things as thoroughly as you would like.
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Q619 Chairman: You said in your apology: "We trust that the suspicion that has clouded their lives for many months will soon be lifted". You will acknowledge that the reason for that suspicion was in large part the activities of your newspaper and other newspapers?
Mr Hill: No. We were part of that process but the principal reason for that suspicion has to be laid at the door of the Portuguese police.
They were the people who named Mr and Mrs McCann as the suspects and repeatedly questioned them for many, many hours and they were the people who leaked all the information about them.
Yes, we were reporting what happened. The alternative would have been for the British press not to report anything. Do you think that would have been a possibility, when the rest of the world was reporting on this case, for the British press to say nothing? It is not practical.
We are all talking here in hindsight and hindsight is a marvellous thing but the fact of the matter is that at the time these reports and these leaks were happening on a daily basis and that is the truth.
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200910/cmselect/cmcumeds/362/9042803.htm
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According to Peter Hill once Kate and Gerry were made arguidos they were bound by the secrecy laws from defending themselves against the leaks from the Portuguese police ...
Snip
Mr Hill: That is a very, very good question.
In this particular case, as I explained to you, the Portuguese police were unable, because of the legal restrictions in Portugal, to make any official comment on the case.
What happened was that they resorted to leaking things to the Portuguese press.
We did our best to check up on these things but of course it was not very easy to do so.
We always put the stories to Mr and Mrs McCann's PR team but most of the time the people they had then, after the McCann's had been named as suspects, did not return our calls.
So this was a more difficult situation than any of us had ever encountered. Yes, there was a clamour for information and we did our best to provide it. Of course we do check as thoroughly as we can. Newspapers operate at very high speed and it is quite true that sometimes it is not possible to check things as thoroughly as you would like.
_______________________________________________________________________
Q619 Chairman: You said in your apology: "We trust that the suspicion that has clouded their lives for many months will soon be lifted". You will acknowledge that the reason for that suspicion was in large part the activities of your newspaper and other newspapers?
Mr Hill: No. We were part of that process but the principal reason for that suspicion has to be laid at the door of the Portuguese police.
They were the people who named Mr and Mrs McCann as the suspects and repeatedly questioned them for many, many hours and they were the people who leaked all the information about them.
Yes, we were reporting what happened. The alternative would have been for the British press not to report anything. Do you think that would have been a possibility, when the rest of the world was reporting on this case, for the British press to say nothing? It is not practical.
We are all talking here in hindsight and hindsight is a marvellous thing but the fact of the matter is that at the time these reports and these leaks were happening on a daily basis and that is the truth.
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200910/cmselect/cmcumeds/362/9042803.htm
I can't find where Peter Hill mentions the McCanns being hampered by the secrecy law after being made arguidos. They were bound by the duty of secrecy from the beginning of the investigation, as were the PJ and all the witnesses.
What Hill does say is that the McCanns PR Team stopped responding when the Express told them what they intended to print. He mentions that this happened after they were made arguidos. By
implication, therefore their PR Team had responded previously.
Up until they fled Portugal Justine McGuiness was their media liaison person. On their return to the UK Clarence Mitchell took over. According to him he did respond, but they printed the stories anyway.
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People with information often come forward many years after an event and after those involved have moved away, ceased to be a threat or have even died. It seems that the passage of time can be advantageous in certain circumstances.
We keep seeing historical cases in England where new digs are being carried out. The information for these digs can only be coming from informers.
But the information is very often flawed it seems.
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But the information is very often flawed it seems.
But at other times it is just what is needed.
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But at other times it is just what is needed.
I can't think this is to be the case of any thing recent case in the uk.
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They’ve been looking for Suzy Lamplugh’s remains for over a week now, on a tip off from a convicted criminal...
A case of he said, they said then.
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I can't think this is to be the case of any thing recent case in the uk.
How would a member of the public know what is happening behind the scenes?
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How would a member of the public know what is happening behind the scenes?
Why should we, but where in recent cases has it been revealed remains have been found? getting off topic here.
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Why should we, but where in recent cases has it been revealed remains have been found? getting off topic here.
I was mostly agreeing with John's comment "People with information often come forward many years after an event and after those involved have moved away, ceased to be a threat or have even died. It seems that the passage of time can be advantageous in certain circumstances."
Not so much about the digging bit. - Which could also be true.
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Question for this weekend.
Should the McCanns be expending their time and energy searching for Madeleine instead of wasting money on futile law suits?
Your views please.
Interesting question,a poster on here says they have evidence that Madeleine was alive as recently as 2012, I believe,given this to be the case I'm sure that info was passed to the McCanns,surely heaven and earth would have been moved to confirm this and bring her home rather than bother the lawyers,just a thought you understand.
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I was mostly agreeing with John's comment "People with information often come forward many years after an event and after those involved have moved away, ceased to be a threat or have even died. It seems that the passage of time can be advantageous in certain circumstances."
Not so much about the digging bit. - Which could also be true.
After that particular horse as bolted then,a confession maybe or advances in DNA profiling is what gets most cold case cases reviewed imo.VS mentioned the Lamplugh case concerning other convicts ,if nothing is found was it flawed info with some one with an axe to grind against Cannan,we'll know in the fullness of time I suppose.
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According to Peter Hill once Kate and Gerry were made arguidos they were bound by the secrecy laws from defending themselves against the leaks from the Portuguese police ...
Snip
Mr Hill: That is a very, very good question.
In this particular case, as I explained to you, the Portuguese police were unable, because of the legal restrictions in Portugal, to make any official comment on the case.
What happened was that they resorted to leaking things to the Portuguese press.
We did our best to check up on these things but of course it was not very easy to do so.
We always put the stories to Mr and Mrs McCann's PR team but most of the time the people they had then, after the McCann's had been named as suspects, did not return our calls.
So this was a more difficult situation than any of us had ever encountered. Yes, there was a clamour for information and we did our best to provide it. Of course we do check as thoroughly as we can. Newspapers operate at very high speed and it is quite true that sometimes it is not possible to check things as thoroughly as you would like.
_______________________________________________________________________
Q619 Chairman: You said in your apology: "We trust that the suspicion that has clouded their lives for many months will soon be lifted". You will acknowledge that the reason for that suspicion was in large part the activities of your newspaper and other newspapers?
Mr Hill: No. We were part of that process but the principal reason for that suspicion has to be laid at the door of the Portuguese police.
They were the people who named Mr and Mrs McCann as the suspects and repeatedly questioned them for many, many hours and they were the people who leaked all the information about them.
Yes, we were reporting what happened. The alternative would have been for the British press not to report anything. Do you think that would have been a possibility, when the rest of the world was reporting on this case, for the British press to say nothing? It is not practical.
We are all talking here in hindsight and hindsight is a marvellous thing but the fact of the matter is that at the time these reports and these leaks were happening on a daily basis and that is the truth.
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200910/cmselect/cmcumeds/362/9042803.htm
Kate said in her book that at this time she phoned around family and friends basically giving them the red light to talk to the press. Even though she would have known that this was against the law.
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Kate said in her book that at this time she phoned around family and friends basically giving them the red light to talk to the press. Even though she would have known that this was against the law.
“For a good couple of hours we were on the phone, calling family and friends to make them aware of the situation and to give them the green light to voice their outrage and despair if they wanted to. Nobody needed a second invitation. They’d all been struggling to contain their concerns for a long time.
Justine arrived to help. While Gerry talked again to Bob Small, she was ringing selected newspaper editors in the UK. We knew only too well how we would be portrayed in Portugal that morning, and Justine wanted to give the British media a broad outline of what was really going on so that they wouldn’t resort to simply repeating whatever wild nonsense the Portuguese press decided to publish.“
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But the information is very often flawed it seems.
That is the nature of the beast, there will always be time wasters and fraudsters who wish to take advantage of the situation and that extends to the very people employed to undertake the challenge as was seen with Halligen and Método 3. In such a situation you have to take the bad with the good and weed out the chaff. One has to have hope that among all this there is one single piece of information which could join up all the dots.
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Instead of squandering all those donated funds on crooked private investigators they should have set up an information nerve centre in Luz, something akin to what Jennie Murat did but on a larger and more permanent scale, in order to elicit information and coordinate any further civilian searches. In doing so they would have demonstrated to the locals their genuine wish to find Madeleine and confront the police investigation head on. In such a situation as this, it is imperative that you carry the locals with you instead of antagonising them.
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That is the nature of the beast, there will always be time wasters and fraudsters who wish to take advantage of the situation and that extends to the very people employed to undertake the challenge as was seen with Halligen and Método 3. In such a situation you have to take the bad with the good and weed out the chaff. One has to have hope that among all this there is one single piece of information which could join up all the dots.
We know from statements by SY that they examined all the previous investigations and info gleemed from that they then undertook the digs in 2014 linking it to a burglary gone wrong,apart from that there doesn't appear to be anything else.
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Kate said in her book that at this time she phoned around family and friends basically giving them the red light to talk to the press. Even though she would have known that this was against the law.
A Cite is requested.
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I was mostly agreeing with John's comment "People with information often come forward many years after an event and after those involved have moved away, ceased to be a threat or have even died. It seems that the passage of time can be advantageous in certain circumstances."
Not so much about the digging bit. - Which could also be true.
Several police historic enquiries in the UK have come to the fore recently involving digging in moors, back gardens and forests.
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Interesting question,a poster on here says they have evidence that Madeleine was alive as recently as 2012, I believe,given this to be the case I'm sure that info was passed to the McCanns,surely heaven and earth would have been moved to confirm this and bring her home rather than bother the lawyers,just a thought you understand.
I doubt it very much.
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I disagree jassi. We all know that many people in Portugal view their police force with some trepidation given the past so in my view a civilian exercise might just get that little bit further. I certainly feel that every avenue should be explored in the search for Madeleine, something which has sadly been lacking in the last few years.
There is every possibility that someone somewhere knows more than they are letting on so appealing to their better nature might just achieve some success. The other thing about a civilian initiative is that guarantees of anonymity can be given to informers for their protection against press intrusion.
IMO the police will never solve this case by knocking on doors and hauling people in for interviews. This case will only be solved if someone freely comes forward with credible information.
Surely if someone knew something they would have come forward when the reward was offered ?
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A Cite is requested.
Slartibartfast has provided it.
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Slartibartfast has provided it.
Yes. Thank You.
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https://www.theguardian.com/media/2007/sep/17/mondaymediasection13
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Instead of squandering all those donated funds on crooked private investigators they should have set up an information nerve centre in Luz, something akin to what Jennie Murat did but on a larger and more permanent scale, in order to elicit information and coordinate any further civilian searches. In doing so they would have demonstrated to the locals their genuine wish to find Madeleine and confront the police investigation head on. In such a situation as this, it is imperative that you carry the locals with you instead of antagonising them.
There's plenty of money in the fund... I would offer £100,000
For information that leads to the arrest of those responsible for the abduction of Maddie.... And adverisebit throughout Portugal... If it was legal to do so
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There's plenty of money in the fund... I would offer £100,000
For information that leads to the arrest of those responsible for the abduction of Maddie.... And advertised throughout Portugal... If it was legal to do so
Isn't the priority to get the child back or is a prosecution more desirable?
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Isn't the priority to get the child back or is a prosecution more desirable?
At this stage, isn't the priority simply to find out more about what happened to Madeleine? If this led to neither the child's return nor a prosecution, would it be worth the Find Madeleine fund coughing up?
One obvious example is the Smith sighting. Would it be worth 20k simply to find out Smithman is not pivotal to the case?
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At this stage, isn't the priority simply to find out more about what happened to Madeleine? If this led to neither the child's return nor a prosecution, would it be worth the Find Madeleine fund coughing up?
One obvious example is the Smith sighting. Would it be worth 20k simply to find out Smithman is not pivotal to the case?
That sighting is probably the only lead we know about. Were the Smiths really the only people who saw that man?
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Isn't the priority to get the child back or is a prosecution more desirable?
Bump
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Bump
The priority is to get the child back IMO. Then prosecute.
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The priority is to get the child back IMO. Then prosecute.
Assuming the first is obtainable.
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Bump
I'm sure Joe Public believed the funds were to 'find' Madeleine, not to prop up litigation.
I know the line was spun that by stopping Amaral's book more people would continue to search, ergo, expensive litigation was required, yet the search has continued unabated irrespective.
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I'm sure Joe Public believed the funds were to 'find' Madeleine, not to prop up litigation.
I know the line was spun that by stopping Amaral's book more people would continue to search, ergo, expensive litigation was required, yet the search has continued unabated irrespective.
Indeed there doesn't seem to be any constraints on Grange.
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I'm sure Joe Public believed the funds were to 'find' Madeleine, not to prop up litigation.
I know the line was spun that by stopping Amaral's book more people would continue to search, ergo, expensive litigation was required, yet the search has continued unabated irrespective.
The problem is the most important place is Portugal and according to sil most people believe the parents covered up her, death ......because of what amaral has claimed... Looking forward to the ECHR... shame it will be such a long wait
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The problem is the most important place is Portugal and according to sil most people believe the parents covered up her, death ......because of what amaral has claimed... Looking forward to the ECHR... shame it will be such a long wait
The McCanns brought suspicion to their own door by refusing absolute cooperation with the police in the investigation of their daughter's mysterious disappearance and thereafter attempted to destroy the very policemen charged with finding that daughter. No wonder the Portuguese people despise them now imo.
They are both a disgrace imo
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The McCanns brought suspicion to their own door by refusing absolute cooperation with the police in the investigation of their daughter's mysterious disappearance and thereafter attempted to destroy the very policemen charged with finding that daughter. No wonder the Portuguese people despise them now imo.
They are both a disgrace imo
If the entire population of Portugal " despise" the parents of a missing little girl then that adds to my reasons for never having had any desire to holiday there.
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The McCanns brought suspicion to their own door by refusing absolute cooperation with the police in the investigation of their daughter's mysterious disappearance and thereafter attempted to destroy the very policemen charged with finding that daughter. No wonder the Portuguese people despise them now imo.
They are both a disgrace imo
I disagree...
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If the entire population of Portugal " despise" the parents of a missing little girl then that adds to my reasons for never having had any desire to holiday there.
Imagine a Portuguese couple had lost a child when holidaying in the UK. Imagine them criticising the British police within hours of their child going missing. Imagine the Portuguese press arriving en masse and staying for months. Imagine the Portuguese press describing the British police as 'bungling' and 'fish and chip eating'. I don't think the population of the UK would be keen on the couple and they wouldn't care if other Portuguese people said they wouldn't visit the UK in the aftermath.
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Imagine a Portuguese couple had lost a child when holidaying in the UK. Imagine them criticising the British police within hours of their child going missing. Imagine the Portuguese press arriving en masse and staying for months. Imagine the Portuguese press describing the British police as 'bungling' and 'fish and chip eating'. I don't think the population of the UK would be keen on the couple and they wouldn't care if other Portuguese people said they wouldn't visit the UK in the aftermath.
I think if the police were bungling most of us would criticise them too
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I think if the police were bungling most of us would criticise them too
I would.
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Imagine a Portuguese couple had lost a child when holidaying in the UK. Imagine them criticising the British police within hours of their child going missing. Imagine the Portuguese press arriving en masse and staying for months. Imagine the Portuguese press describing the British police as 'bungling' and 'fish and chip eating'. I don't think the population of the UK would be keen on the couple and they wouldn't care if other Portuguese people said they wouldn't visit the UK in the aftermath.
I really do hope that the entire population of the UK would not "despise" this imaginary couple no matter their actions.Actually I don't think many would bother if our police were described by the Portuguese newspapers as bungling.
Many on here post that opinion quite often.
My reasons for not ever having had any notion to visit Portugal existed long before little Madeleine's disappearance.
The notion that the entire population of Portugal "despise" her parents, just adds to my reasons.
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Portugal is a really nice place. Personally, I doubt that most of the population despise The McCanns, although mayhap in Praia da Luz, but that is more likely to be self interest.
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I think if the police were bungling most of us would criticise them too
Do you mean the UK police? They have been described as 'bumbling' too, but is it justified? It's understandable for families to be critical, but in my opinion journalists should be more neutral.
Family attack 'bumbling' police over missing teacher
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/family-attack-bumbling-police-over-missing-teacher-431874.html
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Do you mean the UK police? They have been described as 'bumbling' too, but is it justified? It's understandable for families to be critical, but in my opinion journalists should be more neutral.
Family attack 'bumbling' police over missing teacher
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/family-attack-bumbling-police-over-missing-teacher-431874.html
Journalist should tell the truth... And if the police are bungling... So be it
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Journalist should tell the truth... And if the police are bungling... So be it
In my opinion the correct judge of a police force's competence is not a member of the public or a journalist. It isn't even a member or a retired member of a foreign force.
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In my opinion the correct judge of a police force's competence is not a member of the public or a journalist. It isn't even a member or a retired member of a foreign force.
Of courses it is.... Look at Hillsborough... The public and journalists, are fully entitled to criticise....
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Imagine a Portuguese couple had lost a child when holidaying in the UK. Imagine them criticising the British police within hours of their child going missing. Imagine the Portuguese press arriving en masse and staying for months. Imagine the Portuguese press describing the British police as 'bungling' and 'fish and chip eating'. I don't think the population of the UK would be keen on the couple and they wouldn't care if other Portuguese people said they wouldn't visit the UK in the aftermath.
Well said Gunit
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I think if the police were bungling most of us would criticise them too
If you feel the need to attribute blame I think you should look to the parents whose bumbling incompetence brought about this unfathomable mess. I hope they look after the twins better than they did Maddie.
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If you feel the need to attribute blame I think you should look to the parents whose bumbling incompetence brought about this unfathomable mess. I hope they look after the twins better than they did Maddie.
I criticise those who I feel deserve it.... And the PJ deserve it... Imo
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Of courses it is.... Look at Hillsborough... The public and journalists, are fully entitled to criticise....
If the public and journalists had not criticised the police, I doubt justice would have ever been served.
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If the public and journalists had not criticised the police, I doubt justice would have ever been served.
It hasn't yet as it?
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If the public and journalists had not criticised the police, I doubt justice would have ever been served.
No thanks to the Sun's journalists, however. The Hillsborough Justice Campaign, Anne Williams, Jimmy McGovern and Andy Burnham contributed. I don't recall a journalistic campaign?
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The McCanns brought suspicion to their own door by refusing absolute cooperation with the police in the investigation of their daughter's mysterious disappearance and thereafter attempted to destroy the very policemen charged with finding that daughter. No wonder the Portuguese people despise them now imo.
They are both a disgrace imo
Is this where the issue starts? It is ultimately an opinion regarding a fact.
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No thanks to the Sun's journalists, however. The Hillsborough Justice Campaign, Anne Williams, Jimmy McGovern and Andy Burnham contributed. I don't recall a journalistic campaign?
Latterly there has been by some journalists.
Like policeman, social workers, lawyers,doctors, nurses , teachers etc
There are some conscientious and professional ones and some who are not.
Can't lump them all together!
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Latterly there has been by some journalists.
Like policeman, social workers, lawyers,doctors, nurses , teachers etc
There are some conscientious and professional ones and some who are not.
Can't lump them all together!
Latterly? When it became obvious to everyone that the police had lied and lied and lied for years about the circumstances?
You seemed to be lumping them all together when you credited them with helping to get justice for those who died at Hillsborough.
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Latterly? When it became obvious to everyone that the police had lied and lied and lied for years about the circumstances?
You seemed to be lumping them all together when you credited them with helping to get justice for those who died at Hillsborough.
You seem to lump them all together as being guilty of misrepresentation of the Liverpool fans.
Did all the newspapers at that time join in with the demonisation of those fans or only the Sun.
Please do remember I don't read the English newspapers.
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You seem to lump them all together as being guilty of misrepresentation of the Liverpool fans.
Did all the newspapers at that time join in with the demonisation of those fans or only the Sun.\
Please do remember I don't read the English newspapers.
Yet you felt qualified to comment on their coverage of Hillsborough.
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Yet you felt qualified to comment on their coverage of Hillsborough.
Naturally.
Their appalling coverage of Hillsborough became known to me through other media and newspapers.
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In my opinion the correct judge of a police force's competence is not a member of the public or a journalist. It isn't even a member or a retired member of a foreign force.
You really hate freedom of speech don’t you? Ironic, really.
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No thanks to the Sun's journalists, however. The Hillsborough Justice Campaign, Anne Williams, Jimmy McGovern and Andy Burnham contributed. I don't recall a journalistic campaign?
Do you recall the Times campaign to shine a light on child grooming gangs in Rotherham etc, or the Daily Mail’s campaign for just for the Lawrence family? I suppose both papers should have piped down and let the police get on with their job, I’m sure that would have worked out fine - for the police and the criminals.
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Naturally.
Their appalling coverage of Hillsborough became known to me through other media and newspapers.
I think you need to decide whether it was helpful, as you first suggested, or appalling as you now seem to think.
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Do you recall the Times campaign to shine a light on child grooming gangs in Rotherham etc, or the Daily Mail’s campaign for just for the Lawrence family? I suppose both papers should have piped down and let the police get on with their job, I’m sure that would have worked out fine - for the police and the criminals.
I was discussing Hillsborough.
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I think you need to decide whether it was helpful, as you first suggested, or appalling as you now seem to think.
I have made my position quite clear.
Please do not post to me in that authoritarian manner.
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I was discussing Hillsborough.
Of course you were, not whether journalists should be critical about the police.