UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
News and current affairs => A look at the news stories currently making the headlines. => Topic started by: G-Unit on December 04, 2018, 09:13:56 AM
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Once again the subject of children not being properly prepared for school is in the news. The reasons seem to vary and include lazy unemployed parents who can't be bothered, middle-class working parents who have no time and others who are waiting for the child to be 'ready'.
It's not the easiest of jobs and it takes time, consistency and patience. On the other hand, it's a recent problem, and who is suffering? Schools are finding it difficult because, frankly. it's not what they're there for.. I don't suppose the children are too happy either. Standing out from the crowd isn't good.
In a robust intervention attacking the increasing burdens placed on teachers, Ofsted chief Amanda Spielman will say schools “cannot be a panacea” for all social ills and will criticise some parents for neglecting some of the “most basic of parenting tasks”, such as toilet training.
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2018/dec/02/schools-parents-ofsted-knife-crime-obesity
Primary school children 'sent to school wearing nappies'
some parents on low incomes were not taking care of their child
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-gloucestershire-44068217
According to the latest report from the Lecturers and Teachers Association, the average age at which children are toilet trained has increased to three-and-a-half years old.
Fifty years ago the average was just 15 months.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/living/3908329/potty-training-crisis-sweeps-uk-as-70-of-schools-say-kids-are-starting-in-nappies-with-some-as-old-as-nine-still-in-them/
Some parents have made it a low priority because they are too busy, while others have a more relaxed attitude and are happy to "wait until the child is ready", according to teachers.
Margaret Morrissey, of the family lobby group Parents Outloud, said: "The fact is that we are changing our society and the nature of child rearing is changing because of it. If we insist that mothers go out to work when their children are still young - out of the house by 7.30am, dropping off a baby at nursery, then the two kids at school, working a full day and getting back at 6pm - things are going to give.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/primaryeducation/5956231/Pupils-start-school-still-in-nappies.html
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I disagree with Margaret Morrisey. And who is "insisting" mothers go out to work?
Time is a commodity like any other and adults need to decide how they spend it. I don't think it has anything to do with class or economic status. 24 hours in a day. Most need a least 6 - 8 hours sleep lets say 7. Those working full-time can write off 8 hours including a commute. Leaving say 9 hours a day in which to carry out necessary chores, family time, social and leisure.
Most homes have many labour saving devices unavailable to older generations:
- At least one car to run errards/shopping etc
- Washing machine and tumble dryer
- Dishwasher
- Fridge/freezer
- Convenience food
- Microwave
- Steam iron
- Powerful vacuum cleaner
- Central heating ie no coal/hearths to clean
- A variety of other labour saving gadgets
Although today many mothers choose to work full or part-time most have access to the above which previous generations didn't. Also today most men are very hands on with their children and help out around the house which wasn't always the case for previous generations.
Imo a lot of people have the wrong attitude. They expect everything to come easy and feel entitled to spend copious amounts of time watching the teli and/or on social media/online and/or chillin on the sofa piggin out on junk food to the detriment of their children and health. You makes your choices....
Same as obesity crisis. It's simple input (calories/food) and output (kilo joules/physical activity). Eat junk and don't take any exercise expect to pile it on whilst at the same time putting a huge strain on the NHS from all the obesity related conditions.
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Same as obesity crisis. It's simple input (calories/food) and output (kilo joules/physical activity). Eat junk and don't take any exercise expect to pile it on whilst at the same time putting a huge strain on the NHS from all the obesity related conditions.
This has put me in the mood for some juicy rump steak. Wonder if they can cook?... Drool !!! (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-6466505/Hitchin-Ladies-Rugby-Club-pose-naked-pitch-time.html)
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Once again the subject of children not being properly prepared for school is in the news. The reasons seem to vary and include lazy unemployed parents who can't be bothered, middle-class working parents who have no time and others who are waiting for the child to be 'ready'.
It's not the easiest of jobs and it takes time, consistency and patience. On the other hand, it's a recent problem, and who is suffering? Schools are finding it difficult because, frankly. it's not what they're there for.. I don't suppose the children are too happy either. Standing out from the crowd isn't good.
In a robust intervention attacking the increasing burdens placed on teachers, Ofsted chief Amanda Spielman will say schools “cannot be a panacea” for all social ills and will criticise some parents for neglecting some of the “most basic of parenting tasks”, such as toilet training.
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2018/dec/02/schools-parents-ofsted-knife-crime-obesity
Primary school children 'sent to school wearing nappies'
some parents on low incomes were not taking care of their child
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-gloucestershire-44068217
According to the latest report from the Lecturers and Teachers Association, the average age at which children are toilet trained has increased to three-and-a-half years old.
Fifty years ago the average was just 15 months.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/living/3908329/potty-training-crisis-sweeps-uk-as-70-of-schools-say-kids-are-starting-in-nappies-with-some-as-old-as-nine-still-in-them/
Some parents have made it a low priority because they are too busy, while others have a more relaxed attitude and are happy to "wait until the child is ready", according to teachers.
Margaret Morrissey, of the family lobby group Parents Outloud, said: "The fact is that we are changing our society and the nature of child rearing is changing because of it. If we insist that mothers go out to work when their children are still young - out of the house by 7.30am, dropping off a baby at nursery, then the two kids at school, working a full day and getting back at 6pm - things are going to give.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/primaryeducation/5956231/Pupils-start-school-still-in-nappies.html
The family unit has been deteoriating for decades. We dump our old folks in nursing homes for the state to look after and we allow our offspring to wander the streets. It's all me me me these days, something for nothing, a quick buck and to hell with the hereinafter.
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And on the other other hand we have this
https://www.parents.com/parenting/better-parenting/what-is-helicopter-parenting/
For some, parents can’t do right for doing wrong.
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And on the other other hand we have this
https://www.parents.com/parenting/better-parenting/what-is-helicopter-parenting/
For some, parents can’t do right for doing wrong.
Any sensible person would agree that helicopter parenting is wrong as it stifles the development of a child. Leaving children alone night after night is also wrong. You probably are aware that there is a middle ground, most parents muddle through perfectly well without going to either of these extremes.
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Any sensible person would agree that helicopter parenting is wrong as it stifles the development of a child. Leaving children alone night after night is also wrong. You probably are aware that there is a middle ground, most parents muddle through perfectly well without going to either of these extremes.
I agree which is why I posted it, but the media does like to highlight the negative, make out that parents these days don’t know how to parent, as the various articles in this thread show. I’m not really very sure what point the OP was trying to make with this thread?
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I agree which is why I posted it, but the media does like to highlight the negative, make out that parents these days don’t know how to parent, as the various articles in this thread show. I’m not really very sure what point the OP was trying to make with this thread?
I think you would have to ask them that. Of course I am aware that the OP has been given the tag "perfect parent" on here so that may be something to do with it.
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I think you would have to ask them that. Of course I am aware that the OP has been given the tag "perfect parent" on here so that may be something to do with it.
I just couldn't believe that anyone thought it was OK for teachers to be dealing with children wearing nappies.
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I just couldn't believe that anyone thought it was OK for teachers to be dealing with children wearing nappies.
I did think the same. Why on earth wouldn't a parent potty train their child by 4 years old? Madness.
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Some mothers still breastfeed their 5 year olds. I believe alot of it is about a misguided belief that the kid should be allowed to do whatever it wants, never saying no to it in case it is somehow damaged by the parent’s authority. In other words parents striving to do the best for their kids with u intentional negative consequences. But I don’t think it’s a widespread problem, exactly. In the old days kids (and I mean post nursery age) were often pooing and weeing themselves in class, that doesn’t seem to happen so much now. Anecdotal evidence only, no statistics before you ask... @)(++(*
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Some mothers still breastfeed their 5 year olds. I believe alot of it is about a misguided belief that the kid should be allowed to do whatever it wants, never saying no to it in case it is somehow damaged by the parent’s authority. In other words parents striving to do the best for their kids with u intentional negative consequences. But I don’t think it’s a widespread problem, exactly. In the old days kids (and I mean post nursery age) were often pooing and weeing themselves in class, that doesn’t seem to happen so much now. Anecdotal evidence only, no statistics before you ask... @)(++(*
I remember a boy in my reception class having an "accident" in class once so not "often" in my experience. I also believe that this would still happen occasionally now. Children haven't changed even if some parents are not capable of adequate parenting it would seem.
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I remember a boy in my reception class having an "accident" in class once so not "often" in my experience. I also believe that this would still happen occasionally now. Children haven't changed even if some parents are not capable of adequate parenting it would seem.
There have always been inadequate parents too, perhaps you should only be allowed kids if you score over 95% on the Perfect Parent test and are granted a licence.
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There have always been inadequate parents too, perhaps you should only be allowed kids if you score over 95% on the Perfect Parent test and are granted a licence.
Unfortunately that test doesn't exist. 8)--))
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Unfortunately that test doesn't exist. 8)--))
But should it?!
Listening to Radio 4 this morning it seems many baby banks are now springing up which work along the same lines as food banks.
In the following article Bianca, mum of 2, says she feels embarrassed by having to use such a facility and yet she is pregnant with her third child. I don't wish to sound horribly judgmental or a right wing zealot but why would you want to bring a third child into the world if you're relying on charity to support your existing two?
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/thousands-desperate-parents-relying-baby-13489511
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Unfortunately that test doesn't exist. 8)--))
I’m sure there are a few pretty perfect parents on here who could volunteer to create one.
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I’m sure there are a few pretty perfect parents on here who could volunteer to create one.
Are you volunteering VS? 8**8:/:
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Are you volunteering VS? 8**8:/:
What gives you the impression that I am a practically perfect parent? I am OK. I got told off by my son’s nursery for the fact he was still pooing his nappy when he was around 2 years old, so clearly I’m not. Also, I sometimes left him asleep in his cot to fetch his sister from school, a round trip of about a five minute walk . Frankly I should probably be locked up.
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But should it?!
Listening to Radio 4 this morning it seems many baby banks are now springing up which work along the same lines as food banks.
In the following article Bianca, mum of 2, says she feels embarrassed by having to use such a facility and yet she is pregnant with her third child. I don't wish to sound horribly judgmental or a right wing zealot but why would you want to bring a third child into the world if you're relying on charity to support your existing two?
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/thousands-desperate-parents-relying-baby-13489511
In an ideal world every child would be planned and it's parents would have sufficient money to provide for all it's needs. The real world is far from ideal, unfortunately. People have unplanned pregnancies, marriages break down, jobs get lost and so on. The jury's out on why people have babies, but the fact is that they do regardless of whether they can guarantee to meet the child's needs.
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I’m sure there are a few pretty perfect parents on here who could volunteer to create one.
Whoa!! Heaven protect us from perfect parents!!! The only necessity is that they're good enough.
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In an ideal world every child would be planned and it's parents would have sufficient money to provide for all it's needs. The real world is far from ideal, unfortunately. People have unplanned pregnancies, marriages break down, jobs get lost and so on. The jury's out on why people have babies, but the fact is that they do regardless of whether they can guarantee to meet the child's needs.
”The jury’s out on why people have babies...?”. Is it really?! I thought that was the sole purpose of any species, to reproduce. It’s a basic biological imperative innit?
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”The jury’s out on why people have babies...?”. Is it really?! I thought that was the sole purpose of any species, to reproduce. It’s a basic biological imperative innit?
I thought that, but 'the experts' don't agree it seems.
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/laura-carroll/childfree_b_1752906.html
I agree with the experts who say smell is used to pick biologically compatible partners though. Get that right and you'll have strong healthy babies imo.
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/sep/08/can-you-smell-perfect-partner
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Whoa!! Heaven protect us from perfect parents!!! The only necessity is that they're good enough.
Yep we have the UK’s Donald Winnicott to thank for the concept of the ‘good enough’ parent. US psychologist, Allan Schore, says the mother makes many mistakes but that it’s her abilty to repair that’s important.
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In an ideal world every child would be planned and it's parents would have sufficient money to provide for all it's needs. The real world is far from ideal, unfortunately. People have unplanned pregnancies, marriages break down, jobs get lost and so on. The jury's out on why people have babies, but the fact is that they do regardless of whether they can guarantee to meet the child's needs.
But in UK 2018 we have extremely reliable methods of contraception if used as per manufactures guidelines. In the event of a mishap we have the option of the morning after pill and termination.
Circumstances can change beyond one's control and individuals/families should be supported but I don't think its right that anyone can bring children into the world when the odds are so stacked against the child even getting off the starting block eg:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/12/07/mother-ex-partner-jailed-brutal-murder-three-week-baby-judge/
Listen to Samuel Davies convicted of murdering the 3 week old baby (above) on this YouTube vid:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0miaNRgJXao
How were the perps brought up? And had little Stanley survived into adulthood how would he have fared? Sadly we will never know but the odds would be stacked against him raised by such individuals.
All of this puts a huge burden on public services: police, social workers, schools/teachers, NHS, judiciary.
Imo it would be far better if would be parents had to meet some sort of basic criteria.
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But in UK 2018 we have extremely reliable methods of contraception if used as per manufactures guidelines. In the event of a mishap we have the option of the morning after pill and termination.
Circumstances can change beyond one's control and individuals/families should be supported but I don't think its right that anyone can bring children into the world when the odds are so stacked against the child even getting off the starting block eg:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/12/07/mother-ex-partner-jailed-brutal-murder-three-week-baby-judge/
Listen to Samuel Davies convicted of murdering the 3 week old baby (above) on this YouTube vid:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0miaNRgJXao
How were the perps brought up? And had little Stanley survived into adulthood how would he have fared? Sadly we will never know but the odds would be stacked against him raised by such individuals.
All of this puts a huge burden on public services: police, social workers, schools/teachers, NHS, judiciary.
Imo it would be far better if would be parents had to meet some sort of basic criteria.
Mmm! Hopefully, criteria somewhat more stringent that those fulfilled by post war adopting parents, ie adequate income and a separate room for the child?
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Mmm! Hopefully, criteria somewhat more stringent that those fulfilled by post war adopting parents, ie adequate income and a separate room for the child?
A good point. The middle class families who can't or won't potty train their children probably planned when to have them and would have passed any tests.
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I'm talking about some sort of way of encouraging or preventing the likes of the above bringing children into the world who would be at serious risk of abuse and neglect before they are even conceived/born.
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A good point. The middle class families who can't or won't potty train their children probably planned when to have them and would have passed any tests.
But are most children of middle class parents likely to suffer poor outcomes in terms of educational attainment, job prospects, housing, socio-economic group, relationships, mental and physical health, a crime free life without addictions to various substances.
Of course there will be instances of children having every advantage going off the rails and those suffering every disadvantage overcoming these adversities but I'm not interested in extreme cases just typical outcomes.
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I'm talking about some sort of way of encouraging or preventing the likes of the above bringing children into the world who would be at serious risk of abuse and neglect before they are even conceived/born.
I believe compulsory sterilization has already been tried. and is still being implemented in some cultures.
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But are most children of middle class parents likely to suffer poor outcomes in terms of educational attainment, job prospects, housing, socio-economic group, relationships, mental and physical health, a crime free life without addictions to various substances.
Of course there will be instances of children having every advantage going off the rails and those suffering every disadvantage overcoming these adversities but I'm not interested in extreme cases just typical outcomes.
It's a fact that poor children have less chance of doing well in school than middle class children, but that isn't because they are less able, it's because the educational system favours the middle class child.
https://www.theguardian.com/teacher-network/2018/mar/02/working-class-children-born-to-fail-teachers-disadvantaged-pupils
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It's a fact that poor children have less chance of doing well in school than middle class children, but that isn't because they are less able, it's because the educational system favours the middle class child.
https://www.theguardian.com/teacher-network/2018/mar/02/working-class-children-born-to-fail-teachers-disadvantaged-pupils
I have always felt that the main problem is that parents from poorer backgrounds don't expect their children to do well so don't encourage and help their children in their studies. This is not a criticism of the parents only stating a fact as I have personal knowledge of this. Sadly as the parents have not achieved a highly skilled and highly paid job they don't expect their offspring to do so.
There are exceptions and I know of one or two young people who have proved this too.
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I believe compulsory sterilization has already been tried. and is still being implemented in some cultures.
Blimey am I beginning to sound like Margaret Sanger? 8(8-))
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It's a fact that poor children have less chance of doing well in school than middle class children, but that isn't because they are less able, it's because the educational system favours the middle class child.
https://www.theguardian.com/teacher-network/2018/mar/02/working-class-children-born-to-fail-teachers-disadvantaged-pupils
It's also a fact that children brought up by parents with 'attitude' do less well too!
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I have always felt that the main problem is that parents from poorer backgrounds don't expect their children to do well so don't encourage and help their children in their studies. This is not a criticism of the parents only stating a fact as I have personal knowledge of this. Sadly as the parents have not achieved a highly skilled and highly paid job they don't expect their offspring to do so.
There are exceptions and I know of one or two young people who have proved this too.
I'm currently reading 'Becoming' by Michelle Obama nee Robinson. Her parents were working class people who lived in a rented apartment in a poor area of Chicago. However they encouraged their children, Michelle and her older brother Craig, to aim high. Both ended up at Princeton Uni with Craig going into investment banking and Michelle law.
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It's also a fact that children brought up by parents with 'attitude' do less well too!
Any teacher will favour a compliant child to a challenging one. I was a mature student and the middle class youngsters wouldn't speak in seminars. It became clear to me that they saw their role as accepting, learning and regurgitating what they were taught rather than thinking and forming opinions about it. That's fine for some subjects, but this was a Politics degree!
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Any teacher will favour a compliant child to a challenging one. I was a mature student and the middle class youngsters wouldn't speak in seminars. It became clear to me that they saw their role as accepting, learning and regurgitating what they were taught rather than thinking and forming opinions about it. That's fine for some subjects, but this was a Politics degree!
But there's challenging and there's challenging!
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But should it?!
Listening to Radio 4 this morning it seems many baby banks are now springing up which work along the same lines as food banks.
In the following article Bianca, mum of 2, says she feels embarrassed by having to use such a facility and yet she is pregnant with her third child. I don't wish to sound horribly judgmental or a right wing zealot but why would you want to bring a third child into the world if you're relying on charity to support your existing two?
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/thousands-desperate-parents-relying-baby-13489511
Wow Holly! She also states that she works FULL TIME. Don't you think it disgusting that someone who works full time is STILL affected by poverty?
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Wow Holly! She also states that she works FULL TIME. Don't you think it disgusting that someone who works full time is STILL affected by poverty?
Yes, I do!
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Wow Holly! She also states that she works FULL TIME. Don't you think it disgusting that someone who works full time is STILL affected by poverty?
Bringing up children isn't cheap. From memory the case we are referring to involves a woman with two children and a third on the way. We have reliable and free contraception in the UK if you can't afford children don't have them and/or don't complain if you have to turn to charity to support them.
The average earned income in UK is 27k/28k pa. By comparison Neymar Jnr earns some 775k per week and this is for playing football only ie doesn't include sponsorship's etc. He can pretty much afford to have whatever money can buy and no doubt has several homes/cars. Someone earning 27k/28k pa doesn't have the luxury of choosing whether or not to have several homes/cars. I really don't see the difference with children?
I believe in a living wage as opposed to a minimum wage and think it's unreasonable that anyone in UK should be expected to work for less than about ten pound an hour.
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Bringing up children isn't cheap. From memory the case we are referring to involves a woman with two children and a third on the way. We have reliable and free contraception in the UK if you can't afford children don't have them and/or don't complain if you have to turn to charity to support them.
The average earned income in UK is 27k/28k pa. By comparison Neymar Jnr earns some 775k per week and this is for playing football only ie doesn't include sponsorship's etc. He can pretty much afford to have whatever money can buy and no doubt has several homes/cars. Someone earning 27k/28k pa doesn't have the luxury of choosing whether or not to have several homes/cars. I really don't see the difference with children?
I believe in a living wage as opposed to a minimum wage and think it's unreasonable that anyone in UK should be expected to work for less than about ten pound an hour.
So only those who are lucky enough to earn a decent wage should have children? So what of those who earn a decent wage, have children and then have an life limiting accident or illness? What about those already existing children? Should they send them back, abandon them or what?
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So only those who are lucky enough to earn a decent wage should have children? So what of those who earn a decent wage, have children and then have an life limiting accident or illness? What about those already existing children? Should they send them back, abandon them or what?
Sell them. Kill two birds with one stone.
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Bringing up children isn't cheap. From memory the case we are referring to involves a woman with two children and a third on the way. We have reliable and free contraception in the UK if you can't afford children don't have them and/or don't complain if you have to turn to charity to support them.
The average earned income in UK is 27k/28k pa. By comparison Neymar Jnr earns some 775k per week and this is for playing football only ie doesn't include sponsorship's etc. He can pretty much afford to have whatever money can buy and no doubt has several homes/cars. Someone earning 27k/28k pa doesn't have the luxury of choosing whether or not to have several homes/cars. I really don't see the difference with children?
I believe in a living wage as opposed to a minimum wage and think it's unreasonable that anyone in UK should be expected to work for less than about ten pound an hour.
Some women are forced to get pregnant by husbands.
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Bringing up children isn't cheap. From memory the case we are referring to involves a woman with two children and a third on the way. We have reliable and free contraception in the UK if you can't afford children don't have them and/or don't complain if you have to turn to charity to support them.
The average earned income in UK is 27k/28k pa. By comparison Neymar Jnr earns some 775k per week and this is for playing football only ie doesn't include sponsorship's etc. He can pretty much afford to have whatever money can buy and no doubt has several homes/cars. Someone earning 27k/28k pa doesn't have the luxury of choosing whether or not to have several homes/cars. I really don't see the difference with children?
I believe in a living wage as opposed to a minimum wage and think it's unreasonable that anyone in UK should be expected to work for less than about ten pound an hour.
There are just SOOOOOOOO many thing wrong with that attitude!
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I always tried to spot disasters before they happened, and then avoid them. I never had a disaster with any of mine so I must have been doing something right.
However, my children were allowed out and about on their own, but with sensible warnings. And I have been known to leave them alone at night for limited periods.
They were all potty trained by 18 months, and I don't remember that being really hard work.
I have never once considered myself to be a perfect parent. Far from it. It's a minefield, so maybe I was blessed with good fortune.
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Some women are forced to get pregnant by husbands.
In which case surely the husband is responsible for paying maintenance?
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There are just SOOOOOOOO many thing wrong with that attitude!
I was referring to the specific case under question. The woman looked to be late 20's/early 30's at the very least and had 2 children? If she wants a third fine but why complain if you have to turn to charity to support a third child? Bringing up children isn't cheap and surely the woman in this case would be aware of this fact? Who do you believe should finance the bringing up of children if not the parents?
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Here's the case I was referring to 'Mum of 2 Bianca' who is actually 37 yoa:
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/thousands-desperate-parents-relying-baby-13489511
She's lucky she lives in a country where many people are charitable.
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https://www.lv.com/life-insurance/articles/cost-of-raising-a-child-2019
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I always tried to spot disasters before they happened, and then avoid them. I never had a disaster with any of mine so I must have been doing something right.
However, my children were allowed out and about on their own, but with sensible warnings. And I have been known to leave them alone at night for limited periods.
They were all potty trained by 18 months, and I don't remember that being really hard work.
I have never once considered myself to be a perfect parent. Far from it. It's a minefield, so maybe I was blessed with good fortune.
It might have to do with the fact that you never considered yourself to be perfect. You'd have been easier for your children to aspire to.