UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Holly Goodhead on September 16, 2019, 11:13:12 AM
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I can't find an existing thread for the above so here's a new one.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FINGERPRINTS.htm
The only mention of fingerprints in KM's book is on page 102 where she states people had been in and out of the room (where the twins were still sleeping) for the last 3 hours when a young officer entered with a brush and pair of latex gloves. So on this basis I guess it was around 1 am - 2 am 4th May.
She goes on to say the young officer also took fingerprint samples from herself and GM but it seems they were unsuccessful as they had to repeat the same exercise the following day at the police station.
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I think Kate was making assumptions; it may have been that the fingerprints taken the night before hadn't yet reached the investigators.
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I think Kate was making assumptions; it may have been that the fingerprints taken the night before hadn't yet reached the investigators.
You mean an assumption re the first round being unsuccessful on the basis they were repeated the following day at the police station?
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I'm not able to move posts so I've linked recent posts re fingerprints here:
https://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3197.msg555973#msg555973
https://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3197.msg555983#msg555983
https://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3197.msg555984#msg555984
https://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3197.msg555986#msg555986
https://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3197.msg555988#msg555988
https://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3197.msg555991#msg555991
https://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3197.msg555994#msg555994
https://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3197.msg555998#msg555998
https://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3197.msg555999#msg555999
https://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3197.msg556004#msg556004
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Re the following post:
https://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3197.msg556004#msg556004
I need to read carefully the fingerprint report but a quick skim and I'm seeing 1 unidentified fingerprint on the side of the patio door which according to Interpol Wiesbaden does not match any within the database. Does this database cover all of Germany or other countries too? According to IP Wiesbaden the fingerprint could originate from a woman or youth but not a child. So I guess they're ruling out a man based on size.
If I'm reading the doc correctly it appears GA called time on this aspect of the investigation by attributing the fingerprint to one of his officers: Nelson Filipe Pacheco da Costa of the Lagos GNR. I thought IP Wiesbaden said the fingerprint originated from a woman or youth not a child so how can it have originated from male GNR officer: Nelson Filipe Pacheco da Costa?
Its usual for all those working in the criminal justice system ie police officers, forensic scientists etc to submit fingerprints, dna etc so they can be eliminated from innocent contamination. Why would PJ send letters to various other countries seeking the fingerprint on databases before eliminating innocent contamination from officers present at soc?
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I can't find an existing thread for the above so here's a new one.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FINGERPRINTS.htm
The only mention of fingerprints in KM's book is on page 102 where she states people had been in and out of the room (where the twins were still sleeping) for the last 3 hours when a young officer entered with a brush and pair of latex gloves. So on this basis I guess it was around 1 am - 2 am 4th May.
She goes on to say the young officer also took fingerprint samples from herself and GM but it seems they were unsuccessful as they had to repeat the same exercise the following day at the police station.
I think there's more than a hint of sarcasm in the 2nd sentence; an embellishment of the Keystone cops routine.
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You mean an assumption re the first round being unsuccessful on the basis they were repeated the following day at the police station?
Yes.
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Re the following post:
https://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3197.msg556004#msg556004
I need to read carefully the fingerprint report but a quick skim and I'm seeing 1 unidentified fingerprint on the side of the patio door which according to Interpol Wiesbaden does not match any within the database. Does this database cover all of Germany or other countries too? According to IP Wiesbaden the fingerprint could originate from a woman or youth but not a child. So I guess they're ruling out a man based on size.
If I'm reading the doc correctly it appears GA called time on this aspect of the investigation by attributing the fingerprint to one of his officers: Nelson Filipe Pacheco da Costa of the Lagos GNR. I thought IP Wiesbaden said the fingerprint originated from a woman or youth not a child so how can it have originated from male GNR officer: Nelson Filipe Pacheco da Costa?
Its usual for all those working in the criminal justice system ie police officers, forensic scientists etc to submit fingerprints, dna etc so they can be eliminated from innocent contamination. Why would PJ send letters to various other countries seeking the fingerprint on databases before eliminating innocent contamination from officers present at soc?
There was a lot going on the day after the disappearance. The scene of crime technicians arrived from Lisbon and it was them who sent their findings to 'all' Interpol offices, not the PJ. Whether that was normal practice or it was done because a child was missing I don't know. In the interest of speed it's to be commended; the print(s) may have belonged to a known criminal.
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According to Amaral's book Kate's 5 fingerprints from the middle and index fingers of her left hand were found on the glass, the handle and the right hand frame of the children's bedroom window. (page 80)
I can think of no reason why Kate would have touched the handle because it would have been behind the left hand curtains if the window was fully opened. It also raises the question of how Gerry shut the window without smudging her print on the handle.
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“Tests detected DNA corresponding to 6 people in the bedroom. 5 Were linked to the McCann family, the other one was not Murat’s or anybody else’s in the database of hotel staff, police etc. The PJ came to the conclusion that there was a stranger in Madeleine’s room”. (Source: deleted Express article, 2 June 2007).
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“Tests detected DNA corresponding to 6 people in the bedroom. 5 Were linked to the McCann family, the other one was not Murat’s or anybody else’s in the database of hotel staff, police etc. The PJ came to the conclusion that there was a stranger in Madeleine’s room”. (Source: deleted Express article, 2 June 2007).
That was a load of rubbish, wasn't it? No DNA was collected in 5A afaik. The full article has been saved here;
https://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/2jun7/Express-02-06-07.htm
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That was a load of rubbish, wasn't it? No DNA was collected in 5A afaik. The full article has been saved here;
https://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/2jun7/Express-02-06-07.htm
The article YOU quoted says..
But a source at the Instituto Nacional de Medicina Legal laboratory in Coimbra said: “It is an important step in the investigation but the truth is that the DNA cannot be matched with any records. The evidence is very vague.
So they confirm dna was found
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The article YOU quoted says..
But a source at the Instituto Nacional de Medicina Legal laboratory in Coimbra said: “It is an important step in the investigation but the truth is that the DNA cannot be matched with any records. The evidence is very vague.
So they confirm dna was found
I provided a link to the article which another member said had been deleted. In my opinion the article is merely rumour. As far as I know the only Instituto Nacional de Medicina Legal laboratory used was the one in Lisbon.
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According to Amaral's book Kate's 5 fingerprints from the middle and index fingers of her left hand were found on the glass, the handle and the right hand frame of the children's bedroom window. (page 80)
I can think of no reason why Kate would have touched the handle because it would have been behind the left hand curtains if the window was fully opened. It also raises the question of how Gerry shut the window without smudging her print on the handle.
You are quoting an inaccuracy from Amaral's book which is misleading.
Kate left no fingerprints on the handle or on the frame of the window. The only fingerprints left were on the window glass and were commensurate with her leaning out ... not opening ... the window.
Snip
VESTIGES COLLECTED
5….. Fingerprints….Inside interior window of the children’s bedroom…..DBT…..Suf
1. Methodology and means of operation:
2. Established number of supposed authors:
3. Abandoned objects:
4. Objects or values that were the target of the crime:
5. Importance of the damage incurred:
Observations: The fingerprint traces collected are identified as being the middle finger of the left hand (3x) and forefinger of the left hand (2x), of the missing girl’s mother,
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FINGERPRINTS.htm
Snip
The 5 KM prints were all located on the
"Lado interior do vidro da janela"
"Interior surface of the glass of the window"
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P4/04_VOLUME_IVa_Page_884a.jpg
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1868.msg259170#msg259170
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I provided a link to the article which another member said had been deleted. In my opinion the article is merely rumour. As far as I know the only Instituto Nacional de Medicina Legal laboratory used was the one in Lisbon.
It has, a direct quote referring to a dna sample... To say no dna sample exists is therefore opinion.. Not fact
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I can't find an existing thread for the above so here's a new one.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FINGERPRINTS.htm
The only mention of fingerprints in KM's book is on page 102 where she states people had been in and out of the room (where the twins were still sleeping) for the last 3 hours when a young officer entered with a brush and pair of latex gloves. So on this basis I guess it was around 1 am - 2 am 4th May.
She goes on to say the young officer also took fingerprint samples from herself and GM but it seems they were unsuccessful as they had to repeat the same exercise the following day at the police station.
Were all the other reference fingerprint samples of the people "in and out of the room" taken at a later time?
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I can't find an existing thread for the above so here's a new one.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FINGERPRINTS.htm
The only mention of fingerprints in KM's book is on page 102 where she states people had been in and out of the room (where the twins were still sleeping) for the last 3 hours when a young officer entered with a brush and pair of latex gloves. So on this basis I guess it was around 1 am - 2 am 4th May.
She goes on to say the young officer also took fingerprint samples from herself and GM but it seems they were unsuccessful as they had to repeat the same exercise the following day at the police station.
Yet Joao Barreiras was able to state in his report that the prints on the window belonged the Kate, so he must have suceeded to some extent;
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FINGERPRINTS.htm
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The fingerprint I'm interested in is the one from the side of the patio door marked up "unidentified". This was farmed out to various countries across the world for Interpol to check databases. No matches found but Weinbaden (you can't beat German attn to detail!) commented that the fingerprint could have originated from a woman or youth but not a child. I assume from this a man was ruled out based on size (size does matter!). Then we have GA who attributed the fingerprint to a male officer!?
A well known phenomenon exists whereby a police officer(s) arrive at a theory/suspect(s) and then dismiss anything that points away from the theory/suspect. Worse still 'noble cause corruption' comes into play where evidence that points away from the theory/suspect(s) is deliberately withheld or even fabricated. I'm not suggesting this has happened here as I don't have all the detail but at first glance it looks a bit dodgy!?
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The fingerprint I'm interested in is the one from the side of the patio door marked up "unidentified". This was farmed out to various countries across the world for Interpol to check databases. No matches found but Weinbaden (you can't beat German attn to detail!) commented that the fingerprint could have originated from a woman or youth but not a child. I assume from this a man was ruled out based on size (size does matter!). Then we have GA who attributed the fingerprint to a male officer!?
A well known phenomenon exists whereby a police officer(s) arrive at a theory/suspect(s) and then dismiss anything that points away from the theory/suspect. Worse still 'noble cause corruption' comes into play where evidence that points away from the theory/suspect(s) is deliberately withheld or even fabricated. I'm not suggesting this has happened here as I don't have all the detail but at first glance it looks a bit dodgy!?
Well Amaral wasn't making anything up according to the files, he was just acting on information received from the technicians;
Date: 2007/05/18
Service Information
To: The Coordinator of the Investigation, G. Amaral
From: Assistant Specialist Irene Trovao
Subject: Identification of finger print
I inform you that according to report nº 140/07 there is a single finger print with sufficient value for identification.
It was revealed with Dragon Blood and gathered from the side of the living room window/door of Ocean Club apartment 5 A on 4th May 2007 after the disappearance of the child.
This morning Officer Silva delivered various fingerprints belonging to his officers who were on duty at the apartment on the night of 3 – 4 May 2007.
These were compared to the finger print which was identified as being that of Nelson Filipe Pacheco da Costa of the Lagos GNR.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FINGERPRINTS.htm
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Well Amaral wasn't making anything up according to the files, he was just acting on information received from the technicians;
Date: 2007/05/18
Service Information
To: The Coordinator of the Investigation, G. Amaral
From: Assistant Specialist Irene Trovao
Subject: Identification of finger print
I inform you that according to report nº 140/07 there is a single finger print with sufficient value for identification.
It was revealed with Dragon Blood and gathered from the side of the living room window/door of Ocean Club apartment 5 A on 4th May 2007 after the disappearance of the child.
This morning Officer Silva delivered various fingerprints belonging to his officers who were on duty at the apartment on the night of 3 – 4 May 2007.
These were compared to the finger print which was identified as being that of Nelson Filipe Pacheco da Costa of the Lagos GNR.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FINGERPRINTS.htm
Nice to have that cleared up ?{)(**
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Well Amaral wasn't making anything up according to the files, he was just acting on information received from the technicians;
Date: 2007/05/18
Service Information
To: The Coordinator of the Investigation, G. Amaral
From: Assistant Specialist Irene Trovao
Subject: Identification of finger print
I inform you that according to report nº 140/07 there is a single finger print with sufficient value for identification.
It was revealed with Dragon Blood and gathered from the side of the living room window/door of Ocean Club apartment 5 A on 4th May 2007 after the disappearance of the child.
This morning Officer Silva delivered various fingerprints belonging to his officers who were on duty at the apartment on the night of 3 – 4 May 2007.
These were compared to the finger print which was identified as being that of Nelson Filipe Pacheco da Costa of the Lagos GNR.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FINGERPRINTS.htm
Amaral has wrongly publicised information which you have chosen to repeat to the forum http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11027.msg556013#msg556013 he also perpetuated error regarding fingerprints using his documentary as his publicity vehicle which has already been revealed on this forum.
Therefore according to the files he is responsible for publicising misinformation regarding fingerprints; whether or not that was due to malfeasance or just an example of sheer incompetence is for him to know and you to speculate about; but he has never used the information available in the files to rectify his error.
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Well Amaral wasn't making anything up according to the files, he was just acting on information received from the technicians;
Date: 2007/05/18
Service Information
To: The Coordinator of the Investigation, G. Amaral
From: Assistant Specialist Irene Trovao
Subject: Identification of finger print
I inform you that according to report nº 140/07 there is a single finger print with sufficient value for identification.
It was revealed with Dragon Blood and gathered from the side of the living room window/door of Ocean Club apartment 5 A on 4th May 2007 after the disappearance of the child.
This morning Officer Silva delivered various fingerprints belonging to his officers who were on duty at the apartment on the night of 3 – 4 May 2007.
These were compared to the finger print which was identified as being that of Nelson Filipe Pacheco da Costa of the Lagos GNR.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FINGERPRINTS.htm
But GA was coordinator for the investigation. The fingerprint analysts at Weinbaden stated the unidentified fingerprint could have originated from a youth or woman but not a child. Although not expressly stated it would seem the analysts ruled out a man. Yet GA has overlooked this and happy to attribute the fingerprint to a male officer. I know from looking at other cases 'chain of custody' re evidence collection becomes crucial. What processes can be relied upon to show that no foul play is involved?
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It has, a direct quote referring to a dna sample... To say no dna sample exists is therefore opinion.. Not fact
I understand Euclides Monteiro was ruled out based on DNA? If this is correct then I guess investigators must have collected some unidentified DNA from 5A.
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But GA was coordinator for the investigation. The fingerprint analysts at Weinbaden stated the unidentified fingerprint could have originated from a youth or woman but not a child. Although not expressly stated it would seem the analysts ruled out a man. Yet GA has overlooked this and happy to attribute the fingerprint to a male officer. I know from looking at other cases 'chain of custody' re evidence collection becomes crucial. What processes can be relied upon to show that no foul play is involved?
Why should they be considered correct and the Portugusese wrong regarding these prints?
The Portuguese produced a positive ID, the Germans didn't.
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But GA was coordinator for the investigation. The fingerprint analysts at Weinbaden stated the unidentified fingerprint could have originated from a youth or woman but not a child. Although not expressly stated it would seem the analysts ruled out a man. Yet GA has overlooked this and happy to attribute the fingerprint to a male officer. I know from looking at other cases 'chain of custody' re evidence collection becomes crucial. What processes can be relied upon to show that no foul play is involved?
The above needs explaining if we have one set of fingerprint analysts strongly inferring the identified fingerprint could not have originated from a male and another set of analysts saying it originated from a male?!
Who do you trust? Germany which produces quality cars, white goods and football teams whose economy is one of the strongest, if the not strongest in the EU or Portugal which produces not a lot and whose economy was aligned with the PIIGS!? 8)--))
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/piigs.asp
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The above needs explaining if we have one set of fingerprint analysts strongly inferring the identified fingerprint could not have originated from a male and another set of analysts saying it originated from a male?!
Who do you trust? Germany which produces quality cars, white goods and football teams whose economy is one of the strongest, if the not strongest in the EU or Portugal which produces not a lot and whose economy was aligned with the PIIGS!? 8)--))
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/piigs.asp
Not really relevant, is it ?
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Why should they be considered correct and the Portugusese wrong regarding these prints?
The Portuguese produced a positive ID, the Germans didn't.
I would suggest before wasting time and money farming out requests all over the world seeking assistance from other countries/Interpol it would make sense to eliminate innocent contamination by way of officers at soc first.
It needs explaining/further investigation. I have just sent another email to OG to follow up. 8(>(( ?>)()<
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I understand Euclides Monteiro was ruled out based on DNA? If this is correct then I guess investigators must have collected some unidentified DNA from 5A.
I believe there is unidentified DNA from 5A. Carana is our expert on that. But I think Euclides DNA was associated with the stranger attacks on children. Misty would be the best bet for information on that.
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The above needs explaining if we have one set of fingerprint analysts strongly inferring the identified fingerprint could not have originated from a male and another set of analysts saying it originated from a male?!
Who do you trust? Germany which produces quality cars, white goods and football teams whose economy is one of the strongest, if the not strongest in the EU or Portugal which produces not a lot and whose economy was aligned with the PIIGS!? 8)--))
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/piigs.asp
Xenophobe!! Racist!! Lusophobe!!
(just saving others the trouble).
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Not really relevant, is it ?
Not really but can you imagine Germany wasting time and money farming out requests all over the world for assistance from other countries/Interpol only to then turn around and say 'Ooops sorry it was from one of our own officers at soc'?
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I would suggest before wasting time and money farming out requests all over the world seeking assistance from other countries/Interpol it would make sense to eliminate innocent contamination by way of officers at soc first.
It needs explaining/further investigation. I have just sent another email to OG to follow up. 8(>(( ?>)()<
Their Holly Goodhead folder must be bulging by now.
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But GA was coordinator for the investigation. The fingerprint analysts at Weinbaden stated the unidentified fingerprint could have originated from a youth or woman but not a child. Although not expressly stated it would seem the analysts ruled out a man. Yet GA has overlooked this and happy to attribute the fingerprint to a male officer. I know from looking at other cases 'chain of custody' re evidence collection becomes crucial. What processes can be relied upon to show that no foul play is involved?
Is he not coordinating? He has received information from Irene Trovao and has acted upon it.
I believe that it's possible to label a fingerprint 'adult' or 'child' but not 'man', 'woman' or 'youth'. So imo Wiesbaden were giving an unfounded opinion.
https://www.quora.com/Is-there-a-gender-based-difference-between-the-fingerprints-of-men-and-women
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Xenophobe!! Racist!! Lusophobe!!
(just saving others the trouble).
Not really I just admire their discipline, order and efficiency as evidenced by the bar coding on Lidl products.
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Is he not coordinating? He has received information from Irene Trovao and has acted upon it.
I believe that it's possible to label a fingerprint 'adult' or 'child' but not 'man', 'woman' or 'youth'. So imo Wiesbaden were giving an unfounded opinion.
https://www.quora.com/Is-there-a-gender-based-difference-between-the-fingerprints-of-men-and-women
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/282874430_Forensic_Identification_of_Gender_from_Fingerprints
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Their Holly Goodhead folder must be bulging by now.
Well they need something to justify further funding from HO!?
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https://www.researchgate.net/publication/282874430_Forensic_Identification_of_Gender_from_Fingerprints
Wonderful though the Germans may be, they didn't have access to the amino acids found in the fingerprint sample imo. Therefore they were giving an opinion.
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Wonderful though the Germans may be, they didn't have access to the amino acids found in the fingerprint sample imo. Therefore they were giving an opinion.
We don't know what they were given and what the state of their fingerprint analysis was back in 2007.
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Wonderful though the Germans may be, they didn't have access to the amino acids found in the fingerprint sample imo. Therefore they were giving an opinion.
Isn't everybody.
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Afaik in the UK all serving police officers supply fingerprints and dna which are entered onto an elimination database.
7. MANAGEMENT OF PERSONNEL WHO POSE RISK OF CONTAMINATION
7.1 Police personnel
7.1.1 The risk of DNA contamination from police personnel has long been recognised
and a Police Elimination Database (PED) has been in existence since 2000.
From April 1, 2003 there has been a requirement for all new recruits to provide
a DNA sample for inclusion on the PED and since October 2012, for new recruit
profiles to be compared against the National DNA Database® (NDNAD) on a
one-off basis as part of the vetting procedure.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/355995/DNAcontaminationDetection.pdf
If PJ did not check for innocent contamination before farming out requests all over the world this doesn't really fill one with much confidence!
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We don't know what they were given and what the state of their fingerprint analysis was back in 2007.
Had they used the method in the link you provided they wouldn't have said youth or woman, they would have known the gender.
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Had they used the method in the link you provided they wouldn't have said youth or woman, they would have known the gender.
I've no idea what methods they used, do you?
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Afaik in the UK all serving police officers supply fingerprints and dna which are entered onto an elimination database.
7. MANAGEMENT OF PERSONNEL WHO POSE RISK OF CONTAMINATION
7.1 Police personnel
7.1.1 The risk of DNA contamination from police personnel has long been recognised
and a Police Elimination Database (PED) has been in existence since 2000.
From April 1, 2003 there has been a requirement for all new recruits to provide
a DNA sample for inclusion on the PED and since October 2012, for new recruit
profiles to be compared against the National DNA Database® (NDNAD) on a
one-off basis as part of the vetting procedure.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/355995/DNAcontaminationDetection.pdf
If PJ did not check for innocent contamination before farming out requests all over the world this doesn't really fill one with much confidence!
I expect getting the information out there was the priority; it could always be withdrawn later.
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I expect getting the information out there was the priority; it could always be withdrawn later.
Far quicker to shove the fingerprint through a police elimination database than seek assistance from countries all over the world.
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Far quicker to shove the fingerprint through a police elimination database than seek assistance from countries all over the world.
Its just basic stuff and in this regard shows the PJ, at best, incompetent fools and at worst up to some wrongdoing.
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Far quicker to shove the fingerprint through a police elimination database than seek assistance from countries all over the world.
Indeed, but Portugal didn't have such a database in 2007.
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Afaik in the UK all serving police officers supply fingerprints and dna which are entered onto an elimination database.
7. MANAGEMENT OF PERSONNEL WHO POSE RISK OF CONTAMINATION
7.1 Police personnel
7.1.1 The risk of DNA contamination from police personnel has long been recognised
and a Police Elimination Database (PED) has been in existence since 2000.
From April 1, 2003 there has been a requirement for all new recruits to provide
a DNA sample for inclusion on the PED and since October 2012, for new recruit
profiles to be compared against the National DNA Database® (NDNAD) on a
one-off basis as part of the vetting procedure.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/355995/DNAcontaminationDetection.pdf
If PJ did not check for innocent contamination before farming out requests all over the world this doesn't really fill one with much confidence!
Portugal doesn't operate like the UK, so this is totally irrelevant.
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Indeed, but Portugal didn't have such a database in 2007.
Didn't they?
Did they fess up to the other countries contacted and apologise for wasting time and resources?
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Its just basic stuff and in this regard shows the PJ, at best, incompetent fools and at worst up to some wrongdoing.
Up to some wrong doing is my guess.
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Indeed, but Portugal didn't have such a database in 2007.
Why not? Third World Country?
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Far quicker to shove the fingerprint through a police elimination database than seek assistance from countries all over the world.
Police look for a finger print match against a known person.
You can only eliminate someone if you know their identity in the first place.
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Its just basic stuff and in this regard shows the PJ, at best, incompetent fools and at worst up to some wrongdoing.
Privacy is very important in Portugal;
In 2005 the incoming Portuguese government proposed to introduce a DNA database of the entire population of Portugal.[54] However, after informed debate including opinion from the Portuguese Ethics Council[55] the database introduced was of just the criminal population.[56]
Unlike the UK, which has been criticised by the ECHR for breaching people's rights;
In a judgement in December 2008, the European Court of Human Rights ruled that two British men should not have had their DNA and fingerprints retained by police saying that retention "could not be regarded as necessary in a democratic society".[89]
The DNA fingerprinting pioneer Professor Sir Alec Jeffreys condemned UK government plans to keep the genetic details of hundreds of thousands of innocent people in England and Wales for up to 12 years. Jeffreys said he was "disappointed" with the proposals, which came after a European court ruled that the current policy breaches people's right to privacy. Jefferys said "It seems to be as about as minimal a response to the European court of human rights judgment as one could conceive. There is a presumption not of innocence but of future guilt here … which I find very disturbing indeed".[90]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_database#Forensic
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Privacy is very important in Portugal;
In 2005 the incoming Portuguese government proposed to introduce a DNA database of the entire population of Portugal.[54] However, after informed debate including opinion from the Portuguese Ethics Council[55] the database introduced was of just the criminal population.[56]
Unlike the UK, which has been criticised by the ECHR for breaching people's rights;
In a judgement in December 2008, the European Court of Human Rights ruled that two British men should not have had their DNA and fingerprints retained by police saying that retention "could not be regarded as necessary in a democratic society".[89]
The DNA fingerprinting pioneer Professor Sir Alec Jeffreys condemned UK government plans to keep the genetic details of hundreds of thousands of innocent people in England and Wales for up to 12 years. Jeffreys said he was "disappointed" with the proposals, which came after a European court ruled that the current policy breaches people's right to privacy. Jefferys said "It seems to be as about as minimal a response to the European court of human rights judgment as one could conceive. There is a presumption not of innocence but of future guilt here … which I find very disturbing indeed".[90]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_database#Forensic
What about the rights of The McCanns to Privacy?
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Police look for a finger print match against a known person.
You can only eliminate someone if you know their identity in the first place.
I was talking about all serving officers being on an elimination database to mind against the sort of thing that some claim happened here.
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Privacy is very important in Portugal;
In 2005 the incoming Portuguese government proposed to introduce a DNA database of the entire population of Portugal.[54] However, after informed debate including opinion from the Portuguese Ethics Council[55] the database introduced was of just the criminal population.[56]
Unlike the UK, which has been criticised by the ECHR for breaching people's rights;
In a judgement in December 2008, the European Court of Human Rights ruled that two British men should not have had their DNA and fingerprints retained by police saying that retention "could not be regarded as necessary in a democratic society".[89]
The DNA fingerprinting pioneer Professor Sir Alec Jeffreys condemned UK government plans to keep the genetic details of hundreds of thousands of innocent people in England and Wales for up to 12 years. Jeffreys said he was "disappointed" with the proposals, which came after a European court ruled that the current policy breaches people's right to privacy. Jefferys said "It seems to be as about as minimal a response to the European court of human rights judgment as one could conceive. There is a presumption not of innocence but of future guilt here … which I find very disturbing indeed".[90]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_database#Forensic
But that's nothing to do with personnel submitting their fingerprints/dna to be placed on an elimination database. Afaik it happens in UK with people right across the chain from those who manufacture products used in forensic analysis to those who actually analyse collections and all those in between eg serving police officers.
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Portugal doesn't operate like the UK, so this is totally irrelevant.
How does it operate in this regard then?
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What about the rights of The McCanns to Privacy?
Everyone who gave DNA and fingerprints to the PJ signed a consent form.
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Everyone who gave DNA and fingerprints to the PJ signed a consent form.
I wasn't referring to that.
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How does it operate in this regard then?
Look at the PJ Files. They had to get explicit consent from everyone providing a DNA sample, including police officers.
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Look at the PJ Files. They had to get explicit consent from everyone providing a DNA sample, including police officers.
But what about fingerprints? The PJ found an unidentified fingerprint on the side of the patio door. It sent requests to various countries seeking assistance. No matches were found but Germany said it could have originated from a woman or youth but not a child. PJ concluded after all it originated from a male officer which seems at odds with Germany saying it originated from a woman or youth. In any event you would think PJ would operate an elimination database for serving police officers?
Collecting fingerprints from soc would be routine everyday stuff. How much time and money must PJ waste if they go all over the world looking for answers only to eventually conclude that its one of their own officers/innocent contamination!
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But what about fingerprints? The PJ found an unidentified fingerprint on the side of the patio door. It sent requests to various countries seeking assistance. No matches were found but Germany said it could have originated from a woman or youth but not a child. PJ concluded after all it originated from a male officer which seems at odds with Germany saying it originated from a woman or youth. In any event you would think PJ would operate an elimination database for serving police officers?
Collecting fingerprints from soc would be routine everyday stuff. How much time and money must PJ waste if they go all over the world looking for answers only to eventually conclude that its one of their own officers/innocent contamination!
Why worry? Its not as if they sent you the bill.
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But what about fingerprints? The PJ found an unidentified fingerprint on the side of the patio door. It sent requests to various countries seeking assistance. No matches were found but Germany said it could have originated from a woman or youth but not a child. PJ concluded after all it originated from a male officer which seems at odds with Germany saying it originated from a woman or youth. In any event you would think PJ would operate an elimination database for serving police officers?
Collecting fingerprints from soc would be routine everyday stuff. How much time and money must PJ waste if they go all over the world looking for answers only to eventually conclude that its one of their own officers/innocent contamination!
It seems to be a mantra of some British people that everyone should do as we do or they're deficient in some way.
Not all European countries hold DNA samples of their police officers;
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/10/officers-at-paris-police-headquarters-dna-tested-gang-rape-case
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It is possible for two individuals to share the same dna profile but this isn't so with fingerprints. Even identical twins do not share the same fingerprints.
Innocent DNA contamination can cause all sorts of problems.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantom_of_Heilbronn
As I understand it PJ at first treated the case as a missing child who had most probably wandered off. For this reason I guess they were not wearing gloves therefore I would have thought it would have been a good idea to rule out innocent contamination from police officers before requesting assistance from various other countries.
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Why worry? Its not as if they sent you the bill.
Not individually no but as a UK tax-payer I'm contributing to the funding of OG which might not have been necessary if PJ are at some stage found to have been less than diligent and competent over their handling of the case.
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Not individually no but as a UK tax-payer I'm contributing to the funding of OG which might not have been necessary if PJ are at some stage found to have been less than diligent and competent over their handling of the case.
I'm sure you won't miss the 35p.
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Not individually no but as a UK tax-payer I'm contributing to the funding of OG which might not have been necessary if PJ are at some stage found to have been less than diligent and competent over their handling of the case.
I think the lack of success by OG after 8 years of effort indicates just how difficult this case has been right from the start.
Complaining about what should or should not have been done back in 2007 achieves nothing - IMO.
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Not individually no but as a UK tax-payer I'm contributing to the funding of OG which might not have been necessary if PJ are at some stage found to have been less than diligent and competent over their handling of the case.
I think it's highly unlikely that anyone who counts will cast aspersions on the PJ investigation. Scotland Yard are well aware (now) that their methods are required to reach Portuguese, not British standards. T's must be crossed and i's must be dotted. British involvement was not necessary in this case in my opinion.
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I didn't start off criticising the PJ as I had no reason to hence I started a thread dedicated to this topic:
https://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10977.0
However the fingerprint is pretty damning whichever way you look at it: not wearing gloves and then not eliminating innocent contamination from ungloved officers before seeking assistance from numerous other countries. Hopefully this will be the end of the matter and we will not at some stage come to learn that Germany was correct in that the unidentified fingerprint did indeed originate from a woman or youth!
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I didn't start off criticising the PJ as I had no reason to hence I started a thread dedicated to this topic:
https://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10977.0
However the fingerprint is pretty damning whichever way you look at it: not wearing gloves and then not eliminating innocent contamination from ungloved officers before seeking assistance from numerous other countries. Hopefully this will be the end of the matter and we will not at some stage come to learn that Germany was correct in that the unidentified fingerprint did indeed originate from a woman or youth!
It was identified as belonging to a GNR officer.
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I didn't start off criticising the PJ as I had no reason to hence I started a thread dedicated to this topic:
https://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10977.0
However the fingerprint is pretty damning whichever way you look at it: not wearing gloves and then not eliminating innocent contamination from ungloved officers before seeking assistance from numerous other countries. Hopefully this will be the end of the matter and we will not at some stage come to learn that Germany was correct in that the unidentified fingerprint did indeed originate from a woman or youth!
And of course every crime / missing persons is investigated just like on the telly every time. How dare they not follow strict protocol in every instance. How dare they! Those 3rd world, backward, rednecked, buck toothed neanderthals. Get the banjo out Linus! Let's kick back and whittle some. Yeeeehaaaw. Dust for prints Linus. Ah kent, ah snorted all the chalk ser, yeh. You ain't need no pansy-assed gloves yo, jus git on with collectin and a sendin.
When you're critiquing the fingerprint gathering and subsequent chain of custody with very little contextual, evidential basis and arriving at the conclusion that it was probably pivotal and the perp would probably have been apprehended 12 years ago, yeh, you've probably watched too much CSI:Sc..thorpe at this point.
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And of course every crime / missing persons is investigated just like on the telly every time. How dare they not follow strict protocol in every instance. How dare they! Those 3rd world, backward, rednecked, buck toothed neanderthals. Get the banjo out Linus! Let's kick back and whittle some. Yeeeehaaaw. Dust for prints Linus. Ah kent, ah snorted all the chalk ser, yeh. You ain't need no pansy-assed gloves yo, jus git on with collectin and a sendin.
When you're critiquing the fingerprint gathering and subsequent chain of custody with very little contextual, evidential basis and arriving at the conclusion that it was probably pivotal and the perp would probably have been apprehended 12 years ago, yeh, you've probably watched too much CSI:Sc..thorpe at this point.
Well for a start I can't see any evidence from the wit stat of Nelson Filipe Pacheco da Costa that he handled the patio doors:
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/NELSON-DA-COSTA-1.htm
He refers to entering 5A by the main (wooden) door and searching the apartment. He does not refer to the patio doors and/or searching the back/balcony.
Then we have an anomaly in that according to Germany the unidentified fingerprint originated from a woman or youth and not a male (officer) as PJ claim. Added to which we know for a fact GA was found guilty of falsifying documents in another case.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/5370361/Madeleine-McCann-police-chief-found-guilty-of-falsifying-evidence.html
Finally my abductor/suspect is female ?>)()<
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Well for a start I can't see any evidence from the wit stat of Nelson Filipe Pacheco da Costa that he handled the patio doors:
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/NELSON-DA-COSTA-1.htm
He refers to entering 5A by the main (wooden) door and searching the apartment. He does not refer to the patio doors and/or searching the back/balcony.
Then we have an anomaly in that according to Germany the unidentified fingerprint originated from a woman or youth and not a male (officer) as PJ claim. Added to which we know for a fact GA was found guilty of falsifying documents in another case.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/5370361/Madeleine-McCann-police-chief-found-guilty-of-falsifying-evidence.html
Finally my abductor/suspect is female ?>)()<
Interesting.
In terms of GA being convicted, etc, I would suggest that most police officers past or present will do one or more of the following: mis-handling evidence, not following protocol, intimidating witnesses, overt leniency, nepotism, theft, assault, minor / major corruption, cover up for colleagues, lie for colleagues, failure to follow up for whatever reason, go easy on someone / let someone off, go the extra mile for a local resident, help an elderly person, give 10 quid to a junkie, piss in a suspects sink, lie under oath, embellish an account to get a conviction, procrastinate, make a gut call, not 'call it in', mislay evidence, create or plant evidence, racial profiling, sexual assault / harassment, victimisation or bullying, stab colleagues in the back, misuse of resources, mistakenly obliterate evidence, turn in shit faced, turn in on time for 30 years, etc, etc. They're human beings.
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Interesting.
In terms of GA being convicted, etc, I would suggest that most police officers past or present will do one or more of the following: mis-handling evidence, not following protocol, intimidating witnesses, overt leniency, nepotism, theft, assault, minor / major corruption, cover up for colleagues, lie for colleagues, failure to follow up for whatever reason, go easy on someone / let someone off, go the extra mile for a local resident, help an elderly person, give 10 quid to a junkie, piss in a suspects sink, lie under oath, embellish an account to get a conviction, procrastinate, make a gut call, not 'call it in', mislay evidence, create or plant evidence, racial profiling, sexual assault / harassment, victimisation or bullying, stab colleagues in the back, misuse of resources, mistakenly obliterate evidence, turn in shit faced, turn in on time for 30 years, etc, etc. They're human beings.
most police officers do not manage to get themselves on the Amnesty international website..re accusations of torture....Amaral managed it as did Almeida another one of amarals team
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most police officers do not manage to get themselves on the Amnesty international website..re accusations of torture....Amaral managed it as did Almeida another one of amarals team
Didn't say they did. But good going though, to be fair. Scale of possibility. My local newsagent is unlikely to be able to, even if he had the propensity.
What's your point?
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Didn't say they did. But good going though, to be fair. Scale of possibility. My local newsagent is unlikely to be able to, even if he had the propensity.
What's your point?
my point is obvious in the context of your post.
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Didn't say they did. But good going though, to be fair. Scale of possibility. My local newsagent is unlikely to be able to, even if he had the propensity.
What's your point?
People in positions of trust do abuse it but I don't believe they're in the majority.
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my point is obvious in the context of your post...whats your point in pretending you dont realise this
You're making assumptions.
The paragon of virtue that is Amnesty International, you mean: https://www.rte.ie/news/world/2019/0223/1032309-amnestys-toxic-culture-of-bullying-report/ (https://www.rte.ie/news/world/2019/0223/1032309-amnestys-toxic-culture-of-bullying-report/)
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It was identified as belonging to a GNR officer.
Yes it was attributed to a male officer after several countries had been contacted requesting assistance over any match on databases. All countries replied no match found but Germany went one step further and said it could have originated from a female or a youth but not a child.
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Yes it was attributed to a male officer after several countries had been contacted requesting assistance over any match on databases. All countries replied no match found but Germany went one step further and said it could have originated from a female or a youth but not a child.
The GNR officer was neither a female or a youth.
The print was identified.
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I've no idea what methods they used, do you?
Sounds like just the general size of the print. Men's hands are larger than women's or youth's IMO.
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I think the lack of success by OG after 8 years of effort indicates just how difficult this case has been right from the start.
Complaining about what should or should not have been done back in 2007 achieves nothing - IMO.
Unless it’s complaining about the parents “neglect” in which case it achieves everything, ob.
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Unless it’s complaining about the parents “neglect” in which case it achieves everything, ob.
I reckon that's pretty futile also.
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Yes it was attributed to a male officer after several countries had been contacted requesting assistance over any match on databases. All countries replied no match found but Germany went one step further and said it could have originated from a female or a youth but not a child.
Could? hardly a scientific definition. could - maybe-somewhat. what do you think charlie?
Amnesty- the terrorists friend.
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Yes it was attributed to a male officer after several countries had been contacted requesting assistance over any match on databases. All countries replied no match found but Germany went one step further and said it could have originated from a female or a youth but not a child.
Based on no evidence at all, but who cares about evidence when PJ bashing?
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The GNR officer was neither a female or a youth.
The print was identified.
So we are led to believe but wouldn't you think they might have eliminated innocent contamination from GNR officers before seeking assistance from various countries?
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So we are led to believe but wouldn't you think they might have eliminated innocent contamination from GNR officers before seeking assistance from various countries?
I can't understand your obsession with this point. What difference did it make to case progression ?
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Based on no evidence at all, but who cares about evidence when PJ bashing?
If they had no evidence how do you think they came to the conclusion that it could have originated from a woman or youth but not a small girl.
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If they had no evidence how do you think they came to the conclusion that it could have originated from a woman or youth but not a small child.
Where is this information to be found? Is it in the files ?
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I can't understand your obsession with this point. What difference did it make to case progression ?
Well if Germany is correct and the fingerprint originates from a woman/youth it begs the question how PJ attributed it to a GNR officer? I would have thought it was par for the course to eliminate innocent contamination from officers present at soc before seeking assistance from countries across the globe/Interpol. It makes me wonder how competent they were overall.
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Well if Germany is correct and the fingerprint originates from a woman/youth it begs the question how PJ attributed it to a GNR officer? I would have thought it was par for the course to eliminate innocent contamination from officers present at soc before seeking assistance from countries across the globe/Interpol. It makes me wonder how competent they were overall.
And if Germany was wrong, then what ?
Can you say where their opinion is to be found?
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I can't understand your obsession with this point. What difference did it make to case progression ?
Moi obsessed *^&*
Well its the first evidence I have that all might not be what it seems! I can't understand why PJ would farm out letters seeking assistance from other countries across the globe before eliminating the obvious ie officers present at soc.
The patio door was left unsecured which just so happens to contain an unidentified fingerprint.
Potentially crucial evidence. PJ seek assistance from countries across the globe all of whom are unable to find a match but Germany add it could have come from a woman or youth but not a young child. Meantime PJ attribute it to a male GNR officer.
Did the lead detective have a theory and dismissed evidence pointing away from that theory?
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And if Germany was wrong, then what ?
Can you say where their opinion is to be found?
Is Germany ever wrong!?
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FINGERPRINTS.htm
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Moi obsessed *^&*
Well its the first evidence I have that all might not be what it seems! I can't understand why PJ would farm out letters seeking assistance from other countries across the globe before eliminating the obvious ie officers present at soc.
The patio door was left unsecured which just so happens to contain an unidentified fingerprint.
Potentially crucial evidence. PJ seek assistance from countries across the globe all of whom are unable to find a match but Germany add it could have come from a woman or youth but not a young child. Meantime PJ attribute it to a male GNR officer.
Did the lead detective have a theory and dismissed evidence pointing away from that theory?
What is the origin of your text in red?
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What is the origin of your text in red?
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FINGERPRINTS.htm
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https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FINGERPRINTS.htm
I can't see that block of text in your link
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So we are led to believe but wouldn't you think they might have eliminated innocent contamination from GNR officers before seeking assistance from various countries?
In a word, no.
If the print had NOT matched one of the myriad of people traipsing through 5A
AND
the print HAD matched one of the Interpol criminal databases
THEN
we would be slagging off the PJ for failure to fast-track an obvious diligence.
It's pretty obvious.
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Is Germany ever wrong!?
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FINGERPRINTS.htm
They were wrong for long and bloody years last century but let’s not dwell on the last. Portuguese men are notorious for their tiny little hands did you not know this?
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The fingerprint I'm interested in is the one from the side of the patio door marked up "unidentified". This was farmed out to various countries across the world for Interpol to check databases. No matches found but Weinbaden (you can't beat German attn to detail!) commented that the fingerprint could have originated from a woman or youth but not a child. I assume from this a man was ruled out based on size (size does matter!). Then we have GA who attributed the fingerprint to a male officer!?
A well known phenomenon exists whereby a police officer(s) arrive at a theory/suspect(s) and then dismiss anything that points away from the theory/suspect. Worse still 'noble cause corruption' comes into play where evidence that points away from the theory/suspect(s) is deliberately withheld or even fabricated. I'm not suggesting this has happened here as I don't have all the detail but at first glance it looks a bit dodgy!?
Speaking of detail, the city is Wiesbaden, the capital of Hesse, not Weinbaden. My family lived there for over 20 years.
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If they had no evidence how do you think they came to the conclusion that it could have originated from a woman or youth but not a small girl.
I have no idea, but it wasn't an opinion based on fact, it was a guess.
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I have no idea, but it wasn't an opinion based on fact, it was a guess.
That’s a silly thing to day IMO. Does their knowledge and experience on the subject count for nothing? Are they in the business of making wild guesses?
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I have no idea, but it wasn't an opinion based on fact, it was a guess.
That's your opinion... Not fact..
Based on an unknown persons response to Quora question..
Again opinion.. Not fact
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Speaking of detail, the city is Wiesbaden, the capital of Hesse, not Weinbaden. My family lived there for over 20 years.
Thanks. I must have been thinking about the friends of Dr T/Mrs T whose surname starts Wein...
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I have no idea, but it wasn't an opinion based on fact, it was a guess.
I believe there are two methods to determine gender: biochemistry and various measurements. Assuming Wiesbaden didn't receive any chemical compounds then I assume they must have determined the gender from various measurements:
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40747-019-0099-y#targetText=Fingerprints%20are%20collected%20under%20four,the%20given%20image%20is%20female.
And yes I appreciate the article is from 2019 but Wiesbaden were obviously ahead of the game 8(>(( ?>)()<
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In a word, no.
If the print had NOT matched one of the myriad of people traipsing through 5A
AND
the print HAD matched one of the Interpol criminal databases
THEN
we would be slagging off the PJ for failure to fast-track an obvious diligence.
It's pretty obvious.
What's obvious to you isn't necessarily obvious to those who work in the criminal justice system. An obvious diligence in most countries is to have a police elimination database to rule out innocent contamination. So every police officer provides a sample fingerprint upon joining and in cases such as this one where a fingerprint was unidentified at soc a quick simple search is made to confirm whether or not it matches an officer present before looking for answers across the globe. Another obvious diligence would be for officers to wear gloves.
What does Portugal's police training manual state? How do Portugal's courts handle the above?
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What's obvious to you isn't necessarily obvious to those who work in the criminal justice system. An obvious diligence in most countries is to have a police elimination database to rule out innocent contamination. So every police officer provides a sample fingerprint upon joining and in cases such as this one where a fingerprint was unidentified at soc a quick simple search is made to confirm whether or not it matches an officer present before looking for answers across the globe. Another obvious diligence would be for officers to wear gloves.
What does Portugal's police training manual state? How do Portugal's courts handle the above?
How many countries in 2007 had a police elimination database?
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How many countries in 2007 had a police elimination database?
Wouldnt it have been basic common sense and normal practice for the policeman to wear gloves. ....but of course Portugal's protocols are, so superior to other civilised countries... Sometimes they skip the investigation stage completely and gi straight to prosecution
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How many countries in 2007 had a police elimination database?
The absence of fingerprints is more significant than the presence very few unusable ones.
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The absence of fingerprints is more significant than the presence very few unusable ones.
No it isn't. It's a complete fallacy that all items handled ungloved deposit usable fingerprints. Many surfaces and textures make it impossible to recover usable fingerprints from.
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How many countries in 2007 had a police elimination database?
How many developed countries in 2007 didn't operate a police elimination database?
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The absence of fingerprints is more significant than the presence very few unusable ones.
Especially of those who alledgedly were in and out every 30 minutes. If the cleaner cleaned those doors on Wednesday then the McCanns opened and closed the patio door 12 times on Wednesday evening and 6 times on Thursday evening. Matthew touched it twice on Thursday.
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How many developed countries in 2007 didn't operate a police elimination database?
I asked you how many did operate one because you said 'most' did. I think you need to answer my question rather than asking me another question.
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Moi obsessed *^&*
Well its the first evidence I have that all might not be what it seems! I can't understand why PJ would farm out letters seeking assistance from other countries across the globe before eliminating the obvious ie officers present at soc.
The patio door was left unsecured which just so happens to contain an unidentified fingerprint.
Potentially crucial evidence. PJ seek assistance from countries across the globe all of whom are unable to find a match but Germany add it could have come from a woman or youth but not a young child. Meantime PJ attribute it to a male GNR officer.
Did the lead detective have a theory and dismissed evidence pointing away from that theory?
The fingerprint could have been from the day before.
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The fingerprint could have been from the day before.
Not if it belonged to the police officer
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Is Germany ever wrong!?
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FINGERPRINTS.htm
Oh yes. So is DNA.
'DNA bungle' haunts German police
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7966641.stm
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Oh yes. So is DNA.
'DNA bungle' haunts German police
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7966641.stm
Have you read the article.... Who's mistake, was it
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Not if it belonged to the police officer
We just have to take the PJ's word that it was the GNR officer's fingerprints.
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We just have to take the PJ's word that it was the GNR officer's fingerprints.
Indeed you will. Not that it makes any difference if you think otherwise.
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Indeed you will. Not that it makes any difference if you think otherwise.
Nothing on here makes any difference, so why bother even mentioning it?
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What's obvious to you isn't necessarily obvious to those who work in the criminal justice system. An obvious diligence in most countries is to have a police elimination database to rule out innocent contamination. So every police officer provides a sample fingerprint upon joining and in cases such as this one where a fingerprint was unidentified at soc a quick simple search is made to confirm whether or not it matches an officer present before looking for answers across the globe. Another obvious diligence would be for officers to wear gloves.
What does Portugal's police training manual state? How do Portugal's courts handle the above?
That's up to YOU to make such a case re Portugal 2007. And for your 'most countries' claim, which you repeat without any supporting evidence. While you are at it, please provide supporting evidence that in 2007, it was the norm for officers responding to a missing child call to wear gloves.
Frankly, you appear to be on a mission to support your assertion in the face of the facts.
The Trovão response clearly shows Portugal did NOT have such a facility in 2007.
Hopefully, your theory is more robust than your current argument.
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Nothing on here makes any difference, so why bother even mentioning it?
Less one forgets and starts to take themself too seriously. 8)--))
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If I remember correctly, which I usually do, then the lady who dusted the window for fingerprints was wearing only one glove. Her other hand was bare.
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Did she contaminate the scene with her print ? If not, I don't see how it matters.
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If I remember correctly, which I usually do, then the lady who dusted the window for fingerprints was wearing only one glove. Her other hand was bare.
That’s because she was a Michael Jackson fan.
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Did she contaminate the scene with her print ? If not, I don't see how it matters.
Why bother wearing one glove? I’m surprised she didn’t have a fag on, frankly.
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Did she contaminate the scene with her print ? If not, I don't see how it matters.
Who knows since they almost certainly didn't have her prints on record.
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Who knows since they almost certainly didn't have her prints on record.
So just a guess, then?
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So just a guess, then?
Isn't that what we are all doing? But The Police might be expected to do a bit better.
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So just a guess, then?
Quite an educated guess you'd have to admit!
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Indeed you will. Not that it makes any difference if you think otherwise.
Do you ever think of a cover-up? Well here's a theory: if it was a woman's finger print, OK well blame the GNR for incompetence as distraction away from the actual perpetrator.
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We just have to take the PJ's word that it was the GNR officer's fingerprints.
Why? Have you reason to believe the fingerprint evidence is no longer in evidence making a reevaluation impossible?
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Especially of those who alledgedly were in and out every 30 minutes. If the cleaner cleaned those doors on Wednesday then the McCanns opened and closed the patio door 12 times on Wednesday evening and 6 times on Thursday evening. Matthew touched it twice on Thursday.
The fingerprint under question is from the side of the patio door.
I believe it is possible to identify more recent prints over older ones.
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Do you ever think of a cover-up? Well here's a theory: if it was a woman's finger print, OK well blame the GNR for incompetence as distraction away from the actual perpetrator.
Its how most miscarriages of justice occur. A theory/suspect is developed and anything that presents that contradicts the theory/suspect is dismissed.
The wit stat of the GNR officer, Nelson Filipe Pacheco da Costa, describes how he entered 5A via the front door and thereafter searched the apartment. He does not mention at any time exiting the apartment via the patio doors and/or searching the patio/garden area below.
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That's up to YOU to make such a case re Portugal 2007. And for your 'most countries' claim, which you repeat without any supporting evidence. While you are at it, please provide supporting evidence that in 2007, it was the norm for officers responding to a missing child call to wear gloves.
Frankly, you appear to be on a mission to support your assertion in the face of the facts.
The Trovão response clearly shows Portugal did NOT have such a facility in 2007.
Hopefully, your theory is more robust than your current argument.
Using capitals just makes you seem shouty.
Your argument is that it was better for PJ to fire off numerous requests all over the globe before eliminating officers at the soc.
Please supply a copy of Portugal's police training manual for 2007. I would be most surprised if I discovered that when called to an incident where the parents of a missing child are screaming abduction officers take it upon themselves to search an apartment ungloved. If this is the case then it does not support the idea PJ were fit for purpose.
I wouldn't concern yourself with my theory. I'm sure yours is infinitely superior given the hours/posts you have dedicated to this single case.
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Using capitals just makes you seem shouty.
Your argument is that it was better for PJ to fire off numerous requests all over the globe before eliminating officers at the soc.
Please supply a copy of Portugal's police training manual for 2007. I would be most surprised if I discovered that when called to an incident where the parents of a missing child are screaming abduction officers take it upon themselves to search an apartment ungloved. If this is the case then it does not support the idea PJ were fit for purpose.
I wouldn't concern yourself with my theory. I'm sure yours is infinitely superior given the hours/posts you have dedicated to this single case.
ONLY IF THE WHOLE OR A SUBSTANTIAL PART OF THE MESSAGE IS IN UPPER CASE. 8)-)))
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Using capitals just makes you seem shouty.
Your argument is that it was better for PJ to fire off numerous requests all over the globe before eliminating officers at the soc.
Please supply a copy of Portugal's police training manual for 2007. I would be most surprised if I discovered that when called to an incident where the parents of a missing child are screaming abduction officers take it upon themselves to search an apartment ungloved. If this is the case then it does not support the idea PJ were fit for purpose.
I wouldn't concern yourself with my theory. I'm sure yours is infinitely superior given the hours/posts you have dedicated to this single case.
You've ducked the question yet again.
I am beginning to detect a trend.
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ONLY IF THE WHOLE OR A SUBSTANTIAL PART OF THE MESSAGE IS IN UPPER CASE. 8)-)))
Not when the emphasis is on the pronoun.
Anyway lets get back on topic, shall we?
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Not when the emphasis is on the pronoun.
Anyway lets get back on topic, shall we?
What a good idea.
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You've ducked the question yet again.
I am beginning to detect a trend.
What question?
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What a good idea.
I sent an email to OG pointing out the anomaly over the fingerprint so it should be possible for it to be reevaluated if appropriate to do so.
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You've ducked the question yet again.
I am beginning to detect a trend.
A good moment to deploy Faithlilly’s patented Irony Klaxon. PARP!!
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I sent an email to OG pointing out the anomaly over the fingerprint so it should be possible for it to be reevaluated if appropriate to do so.
I have never sent anything to OG. My Theory is so simple to follow that they must already have thought of this.
But my neighbour thinks it is a good one. And he is not the easiest person to bamboozle.
Fingerprints do come into this, but I would be giving things away if I said how.
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I'm just reading the wit stats of first respondents:
- Jose Maria Batista Roque
- Nelson Filipe Pacheco da Costa
At the time the above were members of GNR and arrived at OC reception where they were met by among others GM who told the officers MM had been abducted. Certainly in the UK officers are trained not to be conditioned by witnesses, abduction or no abduction, can there be any justifiable reason(s) why these 2 GNR officers would not don a pair of gloves before entering 5A?
I've only just skimmed the wit stats but can already identify one anomaly in that Costa states he physically checked the apartment but Roque claims Costa waited in the hall. If Costa waited in the hall then it really begs the question how his fingerprint ended up on the side of the patio door?
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I have never sent anything to OG. My Theory is so simple to follow that they must already have thought of this.
But my neighbour thinks it is a good one. And he is not the easiest person to bamboozle.
Fingerprints do come into this, but I would be giving things away if I said how.
Well up until about a decade ago I would not have sent anything to the likes of OG on the basis I would think they must know sooooo much more than me! However having witnessed first-hand how the so-called experts called it wrong over the financial crisis of 2007/08 after I sent a letter in 2006 to the then Chairman of the City regulator, Sir Callum McCarthy, warning him of what was going on (I was an industry practitioner at the time) and the likely consequences nothing surprises me anymore!
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Using capitals just makes you seem shouty.
Your argument is that it was better for PJ to fire off numerous requests all over the globe before eliminating officers at the soc.
Please supply a copy of Portugal's police training manual for 2007. I would be most surprised if I discovered that when called to an incident where the parents of a missing child are screaming abduction officers take it upon themselves to search an apartment ungloved. If this is the case then it does not support the idea PJ were fit for purpose.
I wouldn't concern yourself with my theory. I'm sure yours is infinitely superior given the hours/posts you have dedicated to this single case.
Police don't routinely carry or wear gloves Holly. A police officer called to a house after receiving a report of a missing child will do a search without using gloves.
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Police don't routinely carry or wear gloves Holly. A police officer called to a house after receiving a report of a missing child will do a search without using gloves.
But the first respondents met with GM, among others, at OC reception who was adamant that MM had been abducted.
Surely defence lawyers would have a field day at trial if officers' fingerprints are all over soc?
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But the first respondents met with GM, among others, at OC reception who was adamant that MM had been abducted.
Surely defence lawyers would have a field day at trial if officers' fingerprints are all over soc?
I don't see it. These are still first response officers. They're still establishing what's gone on.
I'm not defending any position here, I just don't think it's protocol at that stage at all.
The FBI guide states that the local patrol officer attends first in 'missing child' cases, establishes the facts, takes the names of everyone at the scene, commences a thorough search, then starts taking witness statements from immediate family.
Gotta be honest, there'll be little need for gloves at this stage, as the overwhelming majority of cases the child is hiding in the house or environs, or has been taken from the area by family members in dispute.
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I don't see it. These are still first response officers. They're still establishing what's gone on.
I'm not defending any position here, I just don't think it's protocol at that stage at all.
The FBI guide states that the local patrol officer attends first in 'missing child' cases, establishes the facts, takes the names of everyone at the scene, commences a thorough search, then starts taking witness statements from immediate family.
Gotta be honest, there'll be little need for gloves at this stage, as the overwhelming majority of cases the child is hiding in the house or environs, or has been taken from the area by family members in dispute.
I keep asking what Portugal's 2007 police training manual states?
As I see it police have no idea how a call out is going to develop. It could be anything from a Dale Cregan like character who killed 2 officers in a completely unprovoked gun and grenade attack to a mischievous child wanting to play hide and seek. Surely the emphasis would be to errr on the side of caution not only for their own personal safety and that of others but also to think it through to any eventual charges/trial and to avoid contaminating any potential soc.
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I keep asking what Portugal's 2007 police training manual states?
As I see it police have no idea how a call out is going to develop. It could be anything from a Dale Cregan like character who killed 2 officers in a completely unprovoked gun and grenade attack to a mischievous child wanting to play hide and seek. Surely the emphasis would be to errr on the side of caution not only for their own personal safety and that of others but also to think it through to any eventual charges/trial and to avoid contaminating any potential soc.
You'd think so, but this isn't exactly East Side of Detroit; it's a sleepy seaside town in 2007, off season, with a local bobby nobbing about in a Fiat 500.
Besides, even with a robust protocol being adhered to, the scene was obliterated by innumerable people - hence my earlier comment regarding the absence of retrievable prints generally.
As for the training manual, you'd obtain it, but some tool would tell you that the translation was rubbish, so neh neh ne neh neh, etc.
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If we find other anomalies a new thread can be started dedicated to this aspect of the case but in the meantime I've just quickly skimmed the wit stats from first respondents and highlighted an anomaly pertinent to the fingerprint.
From PJ files it seems first respondents made wit stats as follows:
- Jose Roque: 7th May, 16th May and 17th Oct
- Nelson da Costa: 7th May, 16th May
The PJ investigation led to an unidentified fingerprint on the side of the patio door. Requests were made to various other countries seeking assistance with identification. Germany responded by saying it could have originated from a woman or youth but not a child. PJ then attributed the fingerprint to GNR officer da Costa.
Having received the call Roque and da Costa arrived at OC main reception where GM advised the GNR officers MM had been abducted. GM along with the GNR officers and others then went to 5A where Roque and da Costa state they entered through the wood door.
da Costa:
Then, with his colleague, he searched the apartment. He opened all the cupboards of the bedrooms, living room and kitchen and he checked under the beds and in the fridge.
Roque:
Then, while his colleague remained in the hall, and the others were in the living room, the witness went through the entire apartment. He opened all the cupboards in the bedrooms, living room and kitchen and checked under the beds and inside the washing machine. He did not see the fridge.
So we have da Costa saying he searched the apartment incl the fridge. Then we have Roque saying he alone searched the apartment whist his colleague remained in the hall but that he did not see the fridge.
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Police don't routinely carry or wear gloves Holly. A police officer called to a house after receiving a report of a missing child will do a search without using gloves.
Not on Tele they don't.
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I don't see it. These are still first response officers. They're still establishing what's gone on.
I'm not defending any position here, I just don't think it's protocol at that stage at all.
The FBI guide states that the local patrol officer attends first in 'missing child' cases, establishes the facts, takes the names of everyone at the scene, commences a thorough search, then starts taking witness statements from immediate family.
Gotta be honest, there'll be little need for gloves at this stage, as the overwhelming majority of cases the child is hiding in the house or environs, or has been taken from the area by family members in dispute.
What about the woman dusting for Fingerprints?
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Looking in the PJ files Irene Trovao informed Amaral that the fingerprint had been identified following receipt of the GNR officers fingerprints. She also provided the photos showing the match. Why would she falsify her evidence?
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Why? Have you reason to believe the fingerprint evidence is no longer in evidence making a reevaluation impossible?
What I mean is do the PJ show us the fingerprint found and the GNR officer's print to compare to?
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What I mean is do the PJ show us the fingerprint found and the GNR officer's print to compare to?
Privacy, Darling. Privacy.
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What I mean is do the PJ show us the fingerprint found and the GNR officer's print to compare to?
Yes. Look at the bottom of the page.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FINGERPRINTS.htm
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What about the woman dusting for Fingerprints?
Did she find any of her own fingerprints? No. Did the method obliterate any others or contaminate the scene? No.
So by hook or by crook, either in spec or out, her method and / or use of gloves is immaterial.
Would I be upset if it were my child they were looking for? Absofrickilutely, and it looks like Gerry was in the habit of wearing more pairs of nitrile gloves than fingerprint lady, ironically enough.
I get that the parents were building this 'incompetent coppers' angle - and I'm sure some of it might be warranted (as much as unwarranted in all likelihood), but in this instance it's an irrelevance. You can try to make the quantum leap from 'fingerprint lady doesn't follow protocol' to 'what an absolute load of inept halfwits' if you insist, but it starts to look a lot like desperate revisionism. Even a staunch supporter must see the level of rigour in the fingerprint analysis.
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It fascinates me that a man who visited the apartment once left a fingerprint, but those who were allegedly in and out multiple times didn't.
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It fascinates me that a man who visited the apartment once left a fingerprint, but those who were allegedly in and out multiple times didn't.
Which was my earlier point. Is this the sum total of all fingerprints harvested? And if so, were they selective of the surfaces they examined, perhaps following the 'abduction' report? i.e. the blinds, the window, the patio doors.
Did they rule any out from the family or previous occupants?
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Which was my earlier point. Is this the sum total of all fingerprints harvested? And if so, were they selective of the surfaces they examined, perhaps following the 'abduction' report? i.e. the blinds, the window, the patio doors.
Did they rule any out from the family or previous occupants?
Well according to the parents they slid the patio door open from the outside and from the inside. So on Thursday both of them and Matthew handled that door. Why didn't they leave prints?
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It fascinates me that a man who visited the apartment once left a fingerprint, but those who were allegedly in and out multiple times didn't.
Why do you think they were asked to provide samples?
I can't see any evidence from first respondents that they touched patio doors?
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Looking in the PJ files Irene Trovao informed Amaral that the fingerprint had been identified following receipt of the GNR officers fingerprints. She also provided the photos showing the match. Why would she falsify her evidence?
Who said she did?
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Who said she did?
To my eyes her printed name and signature seems lighter than the body of text. And we know for sure the lead detective was found guilty of falsifying evidence in another case so not beyond the realms of possibility it was forged.
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I don't see it. These are still first response officers. They're still establishing what's gone on.
I'm not defending any position here, I just don't think it's protocol at that stage at all.
The FBI guide states that the local patrol officer attends first in 'missing child' cases, establishes the facts, takes the names of everyone at the scene, commences a thorough search, then starts taking witness statements from immediate family.
Gotta be honest, there'll be little need for gloves at this stage, as the overwhelming majority of cases the child is hiding in the house or environs, or has been taken from the area by family members in dispute.
And on the same basis, the McCanns and their friends can be forgiven for “trampling all over the evidence”.
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And on the same basis, the McCanns and their friends can be forgiven for “trampling all over the evidence”.
If there was any.
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If there was any.
There may well have been, but we’ll never know now.
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Yes. Look at the bottom of the page.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FINGERPRINTS.htm
That is rather interesting, so the partial finger print matches da Costa over the few points that can be identified. OK I'm impressed but the question remains were they of similar dimensions in real life?
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Looking in the PJ files Irene Trovao informed Amaral that the fingerprint had been identified following receipt of the GNR officers fingerprints. She also provided the photos showing the match. Why would she falsify her evidence?
Is the text of those pages translated into English as well. "Irene Trovao" is the expert. Was she the lady who took the finger prints on the 4th?
I think I've answered the first question myself. "Service Information
To: The Coordinator of the Investigation, G. Amaral
From: Assistant Specialist Irene Trovao
Subject: Identification of finger print
I inform you that according to report nº 140/07 there is a single finger print with sufficient value for identification.
It was revealed with Dragon Blood and gathered from the side of the living room window/door of Ocean Club apartment 5 A on 4th May 2007 after the disappearance of the child.
This morning Officer Silva delivered various fingerprints belonging to his officers who were on duty at the apartment on the night of 3 – 4 May 2007.
These were compared to the finger print which was identified as being that of Nelson Filipe Pacheco da Costa of the Lagos GNR.
Signed"
But the text associated with the photos doesn't seem to be translated. I can see on the lower photo the word "amplified" but in the English text there are no words like "amplify or amplified".
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That is rather interesting, so the partial finger print matches da Costa over the few points that can be identified. OK I'm impressed but the question remains were they of similar dimensions in real life?
Where are you getting partial from?
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Where are you getting partial from?
Well if you look at the two photos of the fingerprints one is only part or the larger one. How much has to be present before it is not a partial print?
at bottom of this page: http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FINGERPRINTS.htm
(http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/06_VOLUME_VIa_Page_1523_small.jpg)
(http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/06_VOLUME_VIa_Page_1522_small.jpg)
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Well if you look at the two photos of the fingerprints one is only part or the larger one. How much has to be present before it is not a partial print?
at bottom of this page: http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FINGERPRINTS.htm
(http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/06_VOLUME_VIa_Page_1523_small.jpg)
(http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/06_VOLUME_VIa_Page_1522_small.jpg)
Oh I see what you mean in terms of the images but afaik a complete print was available.
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And on the same basis, the McCanns and their friends can be forgiven for “trampling all over the evidence”.
They can in my eyes. Preserving the scene would be the last thing you would be thinking about in the midst of a frantic search.
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They can in my eyes. Preserving the scene would be the last thing you would be thinking about in the midst of a frantic search.
As long as everyone else is not blamed for those actions.
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So to summarise then:
- First respondents, Jose Maria Batista Roque and Nelson Filipe Pacheco da Costa, 2 GNR officers, arrived at OC main reception where they were told by GM, via a translator, that MM had been abducted. They all then went to 5A. The officers entered through the front wood door.
- When the officers entered they searched 5A. The officers wit stats are contradictory as to who searched and what was searched. However neither make reference to exiting or entering via the patio doors, searching the balcony or adjoining garden. Reference is made to Jose Roque searching the area around the apartments and tapas bar.
- Fingerprints were collected on 3rd?/4th May.
- One fingerprint taken from the side of the patio door was unidentified. As such PJ sent requests to counterparts in other countries seeking assistance from their fingerprint databases. No match was found but Germany provided additional comment by stating that the fingerprint could have originated from a woman or youth but not a child.
- PJ concluded that the fingerprint originated from first respondent, male officer, Nelson Filipe Pacheco da Costa, despite the comment from Germany and despite the fact that first respondent, Jose Maria Batista Roque, told his colleague to wait in the hall whilst he searched 5A. In any event at no time does Nelson Filipe Pacheco da Costa mention handling the patio door to exit/enter the property for whatever reason(s).
- We are told written communication re the above originated from Assistant Specialist, Irene Trovao, to the Coordinator of the invetigation: Goncalo Amaral. However the printed name and signature on the communication is lighter than the main body of the text.
- Goncalo Amaral was found guilty of falsifying documents in an unrelated case.
Imo the above needs investigating. The fingerprint needs reexamining and the authenticity of the written communication said to originate from Irene Trovao needs examining by a forensic document handler.
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Oh I see what you mean in terms of the images but afaik a complete print was available.
They point out 13 points of similarity, that might be enough. I'm not conversant about finger prints, but I would have thought size really important too.
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So to summarise then:
- First respondents, Jose Maria Batista Roque and Nelson Filipe Pacheco da Costa, 2 GNR officers, arrived at OC main reception where they were told by GM, via a translator, that MM had been abducted. They all then went to 5A. The officers entered through the front wood door.
- When the officers entered they searched 5A. The officers wit stats are contradictory as to who searched and what was searched. However neither make reference to exiting or entering via the patio doors, searching the balcony or adjoining garden. Reference is made to Jose Roque searching the area around the apartments and tapas bar.
- Fingerprints were collected on 3rd?/4th May.
- One fingerprint taken from the side of the patio door was unidentified. As such PJ sent requests to counterparts in other countries seeking assistance from their fingerprint databases. No match was found but Germany provided additional comment by stating that the fingerprint could have originated from a woman or youth but not a child.
- PJ concluded that the fingerprint originated from first respondent, male officer, Nelson Filipe Pacheco da Costa, despite the comment from Germany and despite the fact that first respondent, Jose Maria Batista Roque, told his colleague to wait in the hall whilst he searched 5A. In any event at no time does Nelson Filipe Pacheco da Costa mention handling the patio door to exit/enter the property for whatever reason(s).
- We are told written communication re the above originated from Assistant Specialist, Irene Trovao, to the Coordinator of the invetigation: Goncalo Amaral. However the printed name and signature on the communication is lighter than the main body of the text.
- Goncalo Amaral was found guilty of falsifying documents in an unrelated case.
Imo the above needs investigating. The fingerprint needs reexamining and the authenticity of the written communication said to originate from Irene Trovao needs examining by a forensic document handler.
Actually, the mind boggles when one really thinks about this. They sent a finger print of one of their officers halfway around The World before checking at home.
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Actually, the mind boggles when one really thinks about this. They sent a finger print of one of their officers halfway around The World before checking at home.
When its done electronically, distance doesn't really matter.
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When its done electronically, distance doesn't really matter.
How does this relate to incompetence?
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Re the following post:
https://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3197.msg556004#msg556004
I need to read carefully the fingerprint report but a quick skim and I'm seeing 1 unidentified fingerprint on the side of the patio door which according to Interpol Wiesbaden does not match any within the database. Does this database cover all of Germany or other countries too? According to IP Wiesbaden the fingerprint could originate from a woman or youth but not a child. So I guess they're ruling out a man based on size.
If I'm reading the doc correctly it appears GA called time on this aspect of the investigation by attributing the fingerprint to one of his officers: Nelson Filipe Pacheco da Costa of the Lagos GNR. I thought IP Wiesbaden said the fingerprint originated from a woman or youth not a child so how can it have originated from male GNR officer: Nelson Filipe Pacheco da Costa?
Its usual for all those working in the criminal justice system ie police officers, forensic scientists etc to submit fingerprints, dna etc so they can be eliminated from innocent contamination. Why would PJ send letters to various other countries seeking the fingerprint on databases before eliminating innocent contamination from officers present at soc?
Where is the cite for this comment by Interpol Wiesbaden?
Searching the forum it appears to be related to the Interpol document in the PJ file.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PJ_INTERPOL.htm
"TOPIC: MADELEINE BETH MCCANN
Text:
In the sequence of the vestiges collected from the Ocean Club ? Praia da Luz, which was sent to all the Interpol Cabinets, we were informed:
? The Secretary General of Interpol - IPSG ? Lyon, informed us that these were not found in the IPSG database.
? IP Wiesbaden, informed us that two of the vestiges are not useful for comparison; another was compared and nothing found was in the files. All told, Wiesbaden states that this vestige was left by a woman or a youth, but not by a small child.
With my best compliments,
Chief of GNI
Ana Mafalda Duarte"
So as I read that note by Ana Duarte, that is an interpretation of the report back from Wiesbaden.
I can't be sure the photos in the fingerprint document is one of the vestiges talked about in the Interpol document. Report reference is 140/07.
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But the first respondents met with GM, among others, at OC reception who was adamant that MM had been abducted.
Surely defence lawyers would have a field day at trial if officers' fingerprints are all over soc?
Officers are routinely trained not to touch anything in such situations Holly but in reality they sometimes have to open doors and windows, cupboards, closets etc in order to do checks.
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Well if you look at the two photos of the fingerprints one is only part or the larger one. How much has to be present before it is not a partial print?
at bottom of this page: http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FINGERPRINTS.htm
(http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/06_VOLUME_VIa_Page_1523_small.jpg)
(http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/06_VOLUME_VIa_Page_1522_small.jpg)
Rob, I am not at all sure that the two fingerprints are from the same finger. I am not certain, but there seem to be minor differences.
Can anyone magnify them to matching sizes ... then swivel the images so that they alined ... then finally place the images touching each other, please? As big as possible.
-Then we stand a chance of seeing if they are from the same finger.
Sorry cant be around to follow thru.
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Rob, I am not at all sure that the two fingerprints are from the same finger. I am not certain, but there seem to be minor differences.
Can anyone magnify them to matching sizes ... then swivel the images so that they alined ... then finally place the images touching each other, please? As big as possible.
-Then we stand a chance of seeing if they are from the same finger.
Sorry cant be around to follow thru.
These of any use...
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Or for 'guests' who can't see attachments, right click and save to your own PC then magnify in your own image viewer...
(https://i.imgur.com/slZknIH.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/mRTQp5X.jpg)
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Ooooo thanks Myster 8**8:/:
What am I supposed to be looking at ?
To my eyes, and I'm no fingerprint expert, the images in black frames look identical and the other two images look identical too.
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Ooooo thanks Myster 8**8:/:
What am I supposed to be looking at ?
To my eyes, and I'm no fingerprint expert, the images in black frames look identical and the other two images look identical too.
They're exactly the same fingerprint images, but I've placed one pair side by side and the same pair one above the other so that you can choose which is the easiest to view for you.
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Brilliant. Thank you Myster.
My eyesight is not what it was, but there seem to be a number of small differences. I dont how how acceptable minor differences between repeated images of fingerprints is the norm..
Unhappily the areas which would more readily indicate any differences are missing off the one image. The more I look, the more I think that the images are of a different finger ... and the cutting off of the one image at a certain two areas, is rather suspicious IMO.
I refer to :
- the splitting of the ridges just in from the bottom RH corner which is missing from the one image (cut off?)
- On the same image, the LH side has a sudden change of direction for all the ridges (that wouldn't be to hide something, would it?)
*%6^ I am suddenly finding the actual original finger print rather interesting
1. In the case of the bottom RH corner, I think the finger wasn't pressed hard enough on the frame to register the split ridges.
2. On the LH side, it looks like another different fingerprint has been superimposed on top of the original.
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Or for 'guests' who can't see attachments, right click and save to your own PC then magnify in your own image viewer...
(https://i.imgur.com/slZknIH.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/mRTQp5X.jpg)
Brilliant. Thank you Myster.
My eyesight is not what it was, but there seem to be a number of small differences. I dont how how acceptable minor differences between repeated images of fingerprints is the norm..
Unhappily the areas which would more readily indicate any differences are missing off the one image. The more I look, the more I think that the images are of a different finger ... and the cutting off of the one image at a certain two areas, is rather suspicious IMO.
I refer to :
- the splitting of the ridges just in from the bottom RH corner which is missing from the one image (cut off?)
- On the same image, the LH side has a sudden change of direction for all the ridges (that wouldn't be to hide something, would it?). The area is missing from the other fingerprint.
*%6^ I am suddenly finding the actual original finger print rather interesting
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I think they're from the same person (assuming no jiggery-pokery). Following and examining each green line pointer slowly to where they end, there are about 12 or 13 similarities in my view.
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I think they're from the same person (assuming no jiggery-pokery). Following and examining each green line pointer slowly to where they end, there are about 12 or 13 similarities in my view.
I appreciate what you are saying, but I can see minor differences which I dont think are within the realms of normality
I wish my printer was working then I could print off copies and use old fashioned dividers to check exact dimensions. We engineers work to a thousand of an inch and can be penickety with regard to exactness, but sometimes the answer is in the detail.
I accept that it is possible that it is normal that photos of fingerprints may vary a little as skin is stretched, but I dont think that is the case here.
I would love some giant enlargements of certain areas of the finger prints to compare. I think there is at least one extra loop and wider ridge spacing etc on the one finger print
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The report commenting on the report from Interpol mentions 3 vestiges yet the fingerprint that was identified as "da Costa's" is just one print. The vestige that came from the woman or youth could be one of the other two of which we have no photographs (showing things clearly) to work with.
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The report commenting on the report from Interpol mentions 3 vestiges yet the fingerprint that was identified as "da Costa's" is just one print. The vestige that came from the woman or youth could be one of the other two of which we have no photographs (showing things clearly) to work with.
I'm pretty certain OG will be in a position to obtain either from the files or contacting one of the countries it was sent to. I wonder what the basis was for sending a request to the countries contacted which vary from neighbouring European countries to Reykjavik to Wellington (NZ?)? Or are we only seeing a sample of the countries contacted?
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Officers are routinely trained not to touch anything in such situations Holly but in reality they sometimes have to open doors and windows, cupboards, closets etc in order to do checks.
Thanks. Maybe it was easy to write off the unidentified fingerprint against Nelson Filipe Pacheco da Costa since he was a soldier from the GNR and not a police officer from PJ?
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I'm pretty certain OG will be in a position to obtain either from the files or contacting one of the countries it was sent to. I wonder what the basis was for sending a request to the countries contacted which vary from neighbouring European countries to Reykjavik to Wellington (NZ?)? Or are we only seeing a sample of the countries contacted?
The PJ's Department for International Cooperation's National Interpol Cabinet informed Amaral that they had sent the fingerprints 'to all Interpol offices'.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FINGERPRINTS.htm
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The PJ's Department for International Cooperation's National Interpol Cabinet informed Amaral that they had sent the fingerprints 'to all Interpol offices'.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FINGERPRINTS.htm
So the PJ thought it a good idea to check the database of other countries but don't see the importance if having a database themselves..
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So the PJ thought it a good idea to check the database of other countries but don't see the importance if having a database themselves..
I assume PJ did check its own database but a match wasn't found hence it reached out to others.
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I assume PJ did check its own database but a match wasn't found hence it reached out to others.
They don't have a database as such
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The PJ's Department for International Cooperation's National Interpol Cabinet informed Amaral that they had sent the fingerprints 'to all Interpol offices'.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FINGERPRINTS.htm
So maybe we're only seeing a snapshot then? As certainly other countries, incl UK, have Interpol offices that we're not seeing?
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They don't have a database as, such
Don't they?
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Don't they?
No... It's considered an invasion of privacy it seems... And also non existent CCTV
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No... It's considered an invasion of privacy it seems... And also non existent CCTV
Cite please for the claim that Portugal doesn't have a fingerprint database.
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I assume PJ did check its own database but a match wasn't found hence it reached out to others.
Cite for Portugal having a dna database please
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Cite please for the claim that Portugal doesn't have a fingerprint database.
Do you read the posts on this forum... It's been discussed many many times and is an established fact. If you wish to remove a post containing a very important fact please remove hollys claim that it does to. Sil has posted the details many times... As has gunit
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Cite for Portugal having a dna database please
DNA and fingerprints are very different animals.
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Portugal has been a member of Interpol since 1956:
https://www.interpol.int/en/Who-we-are/Member-countries/Europe/PORTUGAL
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No... It's considered an invasion of privacy it seems... And also non existent CCTV
I thought in the early days it was claimed MM was seen on cctv in a petrol station(s) within Algarve?
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I thought in the early days it was claimed MM was seen on cctv in a petrol station(s) within Algarve?
I've no idea how reliable the following is but if its accurate it shows cctv was used at the time of MM's disappearance.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/cctv-madeleine-mccann-snatcher-deleted-2467839
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I thought in the early days it was claimed MM was seen on cctv in a petrol station(s) within Algarve?
The camera(s) were pointed inside the petrol station area, which is permitted
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The camera(s) were pointed inside the petrol station area, which is permitted
I doubt cctv was not used in public places at the time of MM's disappearance. I guess it might depend on the definition of public places ie funded by government or private finance initiatives:
https://www.worldhighways.com/sections/eurofile/features/major-highway-growth-in-portugal/
Outlining the efforts relating with the furthering of technology usage in road operations by Brisa - as a example of what Portugal has been able to perform in recent years - namely around the company's innovative control centre, he said it controls Brisa's entire network using 550 CCTV cameras, 200 variable message signs, 40 weather stations, 1000 call boxes and 90 road assistance vehicles (indeed, there are 15,000 devices permanently active 24x7), from a single site.
The above was published in 2010.
Portugal became a member of EU in 1986 so will to some extent have to abide by EU rules, regs and laws.
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DNA and fingerprints are very different animals.
I was thinking dna but the same thinking would apply to fingerprints... So does Portugal have a, fingerprint database..
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I was thinking dna but the same thinking would apply to fingerprints... So does Portugal have a, fingerprint database..
Why would the same thinking apply to fingerprints. As I said they are completely different animals. A fingerprint based on the methods used in the PJ files is a fingerprint period. DNA can be used in countless ways eg sold to health care providers allowing them to refuse insurance based on a genetic propensity towards certain illnesses etc.
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The creation of a national DNA database was approved in 2008 by law 5/2008. It doesn't seem to have been widely used, however. In addition;
The Portuguese criminal investigation police have files that contain fingerprints collected from suspects and convicted individuals, as well as biological samples and DNA profiles, but this information has not yet been legalized. There are no official numbers about the size, sort of data or any other details about police databases.
http://dnapolicyinitiative.org/genewatch-forensic-dna/arguido-or-no-the-portuguese-dna-database/
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I was thinking dna but the same thinking would apply to fingerprints... So does Portugal have a, fingerprint database..
There is no point in trying to find out as it matters not a jot.
Portugal definitely did not have a fingerprint database that routinely included the fingerprints of police officers. The officers on the case had to have their fingerprints taken before those samples could be compared against the fingerprint on the patio door, as proved by Irene Trovão's statement.
Quite why this thread is hacking over this point when the facts are crystal clear is beyond me.
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There is no point in trying to find out as it matters not a jot.
Portugal definitely did not have a fingerprint database that routinely included the fingerprints of police officers. The officers on the case had to have their fingerprints taken before those samples could be compared against the fingerprint on the patio door, as proved by Irene Trovão's statement.
Quite why this thread is hacking over this point when the facts are crystal clear is beyond me.
What is clear to one is not always crystal clear to others.
Are you referring to Irene Trovao's written communication where her printed name and signature are a completely different shade of ink to the body of text?
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What is clear to one is not always crystal clear to others.
Are you referring to Irene Trovao's written communication where her printed name and signature are a completely different shade of ink to the body of text?
Attached.
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Does anyone know why so few fingerprints, useful or not, were harvested? Were there hundreds, but then whittled down by process of elimination to a few salient ones?
Surely there would be dozens all over the gaff from numerous people? Or was that part of the method, only concentrating on the likely surfaces our 'abductor' would touch?
What was the deal with the fingerprints?
[please insert random 'it was Amaral's fault' below']
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Does anyone know why so few fingerprints, useful or not, were harvested? Were there hundreds, but then whittled down by process of elimination to a few salient ones?
Surely there would be dozens all over the gaff from numerous people? Or was that part of the method, only concentrating on the likely surfaces our 'abductor' would touch?
What was the deal with the fingerprints?
[please insert random 'it was Amaral's fault' below']
I know from research on the Bamber case and contact with forensic scientists that fingerprints are difficult to recover from many surfaces eg chemical coatings, textured and uneven surfaces. As you might know fingerprints are made up of body fluids and these also vary from person to person in terms of amount produced. Also the skin on the fingertip plays a part too. So its not a case of everything touched will leave an indelible print.
I guess investigators examined the areas any abductor must have had some contact with ie doors, window, shutter.
I haven't read about any sweepings taken from the floors.
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I know from research on the Bamber case and contact with forensic scientists that fingerprints are difficult to recover from many surfaces eg chemical coatings, textured and uneven surfaces. As you might know fingerprints are made up of body fluids and these also vary from person to person in terms of amount produced. Also the skin on the fingertip plays a part too. So its not a case of everything touched will leave an indelible print.
I guess investigators examined the areas any abductor must have had some contact with ie doors, window, shutter.
I haven't read about any sweepings taken from the floors.
Is there a definitive instead of a guess? (not being rude or owt). Who requested SOCO and when and what was the remit? To have a single, partial print from an entire holiday apartment seems......not right.
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Is there a definitive instead of a guess? (not being rude or owt). Who requested SOCO and when and what was the remit? To have a single, partial print from an entire holiday apartment seems......not right.
Afaik all that's available re fingerprints is within the file posted in the OP.
The fingerprint attributed to the GNR officer was a complete print afaik not a partial? KM's fingerprints were found on the shutter.
The fingerprint technician recovered some prints during the night 3rd/4th May and then returned during daylight hours to recover others.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FINGERPRINTS.htm
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The sun, weathering in general, may have damaged some of the fingerprints on the outside of doors.
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Do you read the posts on this forum... It's been discussed many many times and is an established fact. If you wish to remove a post containing a very important fact please remove hollys claim that it does to. Sil has posted the details many times... As has gunit
I understood it as that Portugal didn't have a DNA database.
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The sun, weathering in general, may have damaged some of the fingerprints on the outside of doors.
Somehow that smacks of desperation to prove whatever it is that you r point is - IMO
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Somehow that smacks of desperation to prove whatever it is that you r point is - IMO
It might smack of desperation to those who haven't researched the matter but I can assure you its true.
https://www.forensicmag.com/article/2014/11/fingerprinting-adverse-conditions
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The sun, weathering in general, may have damaged some of the fingerprints on the outside of doors.
Including those made a couple of hours earlier?
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Including those made a couple of hours earlier?
Why not?
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Why not?
So what about the intervening hours; from the first alert to the prints being taken? Looooaaadds of randoms knocking about, making butties, looking for tennis bags, hiding medication, etc.
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So what about the intervening hours; from the first alert to the prints being taken? Looooaaadds of randoms knocking about, making butties, looking for tennis bags, hiding medication, etc.
The first prints were collected during the night of 3rd May/early morning 4th May. This was limited to the inside of MM's bedroom window due to light conditions.
Further prints were then collected 4th May circa 11am:
- 8 inadequate from outside of one patio door
- 1 inadequate from outside other patio door
- 1 adequate from side of patio door
- 3 inadequate from outside external blinds
So it seems to me those that were preserved were somewhat protected from the elements ie they were all internal as opposed to external.
It doesn't seem as though the front door was fingerprinted.
The report refers to a blind so assuming the blind and shutter are one and the same this might not have yielded prints due to the coating.
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The first prints were collected during the night of 3rd May/early morning 4th May. This was limited to the inside of MM's bedroom window due to light conditions.
Further prints were then collected 4th May circa 11am:
- 8 inadequate from outside of one patio door
- 1 inadequate from outside other patio door
- 1 adequate from side of patio door
- 3 inadequate from outside external blinds
So it seems to me those that were preserved were somewhat protected from the elements ie they were all internal as opposed to external.
It doesn't seem as though the front door was fingerprinted.
The report refers to a blind so assuming the blind and shutter are one and the same this might not have yielded prints due to the coating.
What elements did you have in mind?
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What elements did you have in mind?
Sun/heat, rain, dirt etc, etc
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Sun/heat, rain, dirt etc, etc
I hadn't heard it was raining and hardly the hot season, so those can be discounted - IMO
Not too sure about the etc etc bit any more than you are.
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I hadn't heard it was raining and hardly the hot season, so those can be discounted - IMO
Not too sure about the etc etc bit any more than you are.
I am actually sure as unlike many here I do carry out some research.
We have no idea when the inadequate fingerprints were made.
Recovering useable fingerprints is based on many factors. I've given some. Another is the method used which in this case was Dragon blood. Surfaces also play a part too eg glass, aluminium and polyurethane paint.
6.1. Conclusion
The purpose of the experiments undertaken in this paper was to determine whether an
identifiable fingerprint could persist for prolonged periods of time when exposed to
environmental conditions. The findings showed that this occurred with several marks.
The longevity of a fingerprint is variable and dependant on several factors including
the substance in which it is formed. Some fingerprints are fragile and can be
relatively easily removed by environmental conditions. The sweat secreted by the
eccrine pores in the hands appears to be one of those substances that can be easily
damaged. Indeed, the older marks placed in eccrine sweat in the preliminary testing
required further powdering and were faint fitting with the CSIs and Fingerprint
Officers comments in 1.2. and 1.3. In a person’s day-to-day activities, however, they
will often touch other items and surfaces which can result in the transfer of
contaminants to their hands. For example, touching one’s own face or hair may result
in sweat from sebaceous pores being transferred to one’s hands. The constituents of
sebaceous sweat can make it more durable than eccrine sweat and it can therefore last
longer. Eating food stuffs can transfer a variety of substances to a person’s hands.
Only small amounts of contaminants are required to deposit a fingerprint, so much so
that a person’s fingers may appear relatively clean. Some of these marks persisted for
over 2½ years yet still displayed the ‘indicators’ that some CSIs and Fingerprint
Officers relied on to suggest a mark was ‘fresh’, i.e. they visualised easily, quickly,
readily and required only a minimal amount of aluminium powder.
The apparent assumptions that fingerprints are made in eccrine sweat and can be
damaged or removed by environmental conditions will only be true some of the time.
It follows, therefore, that some fingerprints will not be formed in only eccrine sweat,
will not be damaged or removed by environmental conditions and can last for
prolonged periods of time. It is generally not possible to establish what medium
latent fingerprints were left in by a visual examination.
The findings of this research show that the aging of fingerprints is neither simple nor
based on a formula. Depending on the conditions, well-defined identifiable
fingerprints can be recovered many months or years after their placement even in
harsh environments. To make an assumptive comment that a fingerprint is ‘fresh’
without scientific reasoning can bias a case, provide a false evaluation of the evidence
and mislead a court.
https://keithborer.co.uk/sites/default/files/SBCSEyeFPLongevityPaper.pdf
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I hadn't heard it was raining and hardly the hot season, so those can be discounted - IMO
Not too sure about the etc etc bit any more than you are.
I believe it rained on the Wed and it was hot and sunny on the Thu (best day of the hol). I've no idea about the Friday.
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I believe it rained on the Wed and it was hot and sunny on the Thu (best day of the hol). I've no idea about the Friday.
I would think the balcony was a sun trap. Then there's anything blowing around in the atmosphere eg sand.
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I would think the balcony was a sun trap. Then there's anything blowing around in the atmosphere eg sand.
But how many were taken and subsequently discounted? Could be hundreds. Could be 12.
I'm more interested in the absence of fingerprints, irrespective of the factors you mention, which are apparent even to a layman i.e. you can't get fingerprints off a duvet cover - who knew?
We are all terribly impressed with your seemingly voluminous knowledge of fingerprint harvesting and analysis, but not particularly interested. How many were taken in total, Hol?
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In any event what it that people find strange about the fingerprints? All seems normal to me.
The McCanns did not say anything had been interfered with, removed etc other than MM. It is extremely unlikely fingerprints could be recovered from bedding so that leaves doors, window and shutter. These items were dusted with Dragons blood revealing inadequate prints from external surfaces and adequate prints from internal surfaces which pertained to KM with one other said to come from the GNR officer.
What would anyone expect to find?
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But how many were taken and subsequently discounted? Could be hundreds. Could be 12.
I'm more interested in the absence of fingerprints, irrespective of the factors you mention, which are apparent even to a layman i.e. you can't get fingerprints off a duvet cover - who knew?
We are all terribly impressed with your seemingly voluminous knowledge of fingerprint harvesting and analysis, but not particularly interested. How many were taken in total, Hol?
Please refer to the report:
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FINGERPRINTS.htm
Relevant areas were dusted with Dragon Blood which revealed some inadequate and some adequate fingerprints. Availability is dependent on many factors but as you said you're not particularly interested so I'm afraid I can't assist!
A similar situation exists in the Bamber case whereby the firearm used in the shooting contained a fingerprint from each of the possible perps: 1 x Bamber and 1 x Sheila Caffell. Bamber used the rifle regularly his sister in theory had no need to handle it unless she was involved in the shooting. All sorts of wild theories exist about this but the fact is the firearm used was coated in a substance known as 'blueing' which makes it very difficult to recover latents fingerprints from. Therefore 1 fingerprint from each is consistent with both of them handling the firearm at some stage.
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In any event what it that people find strange about the fingerprints? All seems normal to me.
The McCanns did not say anything had been interfered with, removed etc other than MM. It is extremely unlikely fingerprints could be recovered from bedding so that leaves doors, window and shutter. These items were dusted with Dragons blood revealing inadequate prints from external surfaces and adequate prints from internal surfaces which pertained to KM with one other said to come from the GNR officer.
What would anyone expect to find?
Lots more. A weeks worth of kids prints on every non-porous surface, for example.
Which is my point. If they found 11,000 prints from the family, then tells us about it.
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Why would they bother with every non-porous surface?
Any abductor went in to remove MM not take a shower, cook a meal, watch tv etc.
The report suggests they only fingerprinted the patio doors, MM's bedroom window and shutter. I assume the cleaner was wiping the glass over?
I don't know how effective Dragon's Blood is. Instead of bringing in Grimes and his dogs they might have considered removing the doors, window and shutter and shoving them in a cyanoacrylate fuming chamber in an attempt to reveal more fingerprints.
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I would think the balcony was a sun trap. Then there's anything blowing around in the atmosphere eg sand.
Facing to the south, it would catch the afternoon sun, but hardly paint -blisteringly intense by 11 in the morning in early May - IMO
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Facing to the south, it would catch the afternoon sun, but hardly paint -blisteringly intense by 11 in the morning in early May - IMO
https://www.metoffice.gov.uk/weather/travel-and-events/holiday-weather/europe/portugal/algarve
I'm not even sure of what is being argued here? Why so few adequate fingerprints?
- Items dusted? It appears restricted to MM's bedroom window, shutter and patio doors? What areas were dusted. The soc lady in images just appears to be dusting around the bottom of the shutter?
- Competence of examiner
- Method used
- Surfaces
- State of hands of those depositing fingerprints eg clean dry hands will leave behind less that those sweaty and dirty
- Environmental factors eg heat, sunlight, rain
- Anything floating about in atmosphere eg dust, dirt
A couple of minutes spent Googling will reveal many factors determine whether or not fingerprints can be obtained from items handled.
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Does anyone know why so few fingerprints, useful or not, were harvested? Were there hundreds, but then whittled down by process of elimination to a few salient ones?
Surely there would be dozens all over the gaff from numerous people? Or was that part of the method, only concentrating on the likely surfaces our 'abductor' would touch?
What was the deal with the fingerprints?
[please insert random 'it was Amaral's fault' below']
That is the point, there is no deal. the finger print excersise did not flag up an abductors prints.
It was Amarals fault that he could not find any evidence of an abductor. lazy buggar-sardine muncher!
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That is the point, there is no deal. the finger print excersise did not flag up an abductors prints.
It was Amarals fault that he could not find any evidence of an abductor. lazy buggar-sardine muncher!
You said it.
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That is the point, there is no deal. the finger print excersise did not flag up an abductors prints.
It was Amarals fault that he could not find any evidence of an abductor. lazy buggar-sardine muncher!
How do you explain the unidentified fingerprint on the side of the patio door? This is the fingerprint Germany said could have been made by a woman or youth but not a child. Paperwork purporting to originate from Irene Trovao states it originated from male GNR officer Nelson da Costa but there's no mention in his wit stat of having contact with the patio doors. And the printed name and signature of fingerprint technician Irene Trovao is a lighter shade than the body of text suggesting all might not be what it appears at first glance.
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How do you explain the unidentified fingerprint on the side of the patio door? This is the fingerprint Germany said could have been made by a woman or youth but not a child. Paperwork purporting to originate from Irene Trovao states it originated from male GNR officer Nelson da Costa but there's no mention in his wit stat of having contact with the patio doors. And the printed name and signature of fingerprint technician Irene Trovao is a lighter shade than the body of text suggesting all might not be what it appears at first glance.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P6/06_VOLUME_VIa_Page_1520.jpg
(https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P6/06_VOLUME_VIa_Page_1520.jpg)
In my experience that would be the colour of the pen she used. It possibly was a blue inked pen rather than black.
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https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P6/06_VOLUME_VIa_Page_1520.jpg
(https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P6/06_VOLUME_VIa_Page_1520.jpg)
In my experience that would be the colour of the pen she used. It possibly was a blue inked pen rather than black.
Forget the conspiracy theory, a simple explanation is always the most likely .
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https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P6/06_VOLUME_VIa_Page_1520.jpg
(https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P6/06_VOLUME_VIa_Page_1520.jpg)
In my experience that would be the colour of the pen she used. It possibly was a blue inked pen rather than black.
So how do you account for the printed name?
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Forget the conspiracy theory, a simple explanation is always the most likely .
But you also need to overcome the fact that as far as Germany is concerned the fingerprint originated from a woman or youth. Then you need to explain the contradictory wit stats of the two GNR officers about who searched and what was searched and the fact both make reference to entering via the front door but neither make ref to the patio doors.
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So how do you account for the printed name?
Good question. Was that a typewriter or was it a block stamp. In my profession our names had to be transferred with a block stamp. The stamp then could be blue ink as well. I see Irene also placed a symbol initials in the lower right corner, also in "blue ink".
The font is so like the font of the body of text it seems like it was done by the same equipment. One would think she could have changed to colour of the font for her name if done on a computer.
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But you also need to overcome the fact that as far as Germany is concerned the fingerprint originated from a woman or youth. Then you need to explain the contradictory wit stats of the two GNR officers about who searched and what was searched and the fact both make reference to entering via the front door but neither make ref to the patio doors.
It's multi-faceted. Those who believe the unidentified fingerprint originated from GNR officer Nelson da Costa also need to explain:
- Why/how Germany arrived at the conclusion the fingerprint originated from a woman or youth
- Why the wit stats of the two GNR officers are contradictory about who searched what and why neither make ref to having contact with the patio doors
- Why Irene Trovao's printed name/signature on communication supposedly from herself to GA is a different shade of ink to the main body of text
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It's multi-faceted. Those who believe the unidentified fingerprint originated from GNR officer Nelson da Costa also need to explain:
- Why/how Germany arrived at the conclusion the fingerprint originated from a woman or youth
- Why the wit stats of the two GNR officers are contradictory about who searched what and why neither make ref to having contact with the patio doors
- Why Irene Trovao's printed name/signature on communication supposedly from herself to GA is a different shade of ink to the main body of text
How is it determined a finger print is from a woman of youth if the finger print owner is not known,why would a youth's finger print be similar to a womans,a youth generally refers to a male.
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How is it determined a finger print is from a woman of youth if the finger print owner is not known,why would a youth's finger print be similar to a womans,a youth generally refers to a male.
Presumably by the size of it.
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How is it determined a finger print is from a woman of youth if the finger print owner is not known,why would a youth's finger print be similar to a womans,a youth generally refers to a male.
Youth = the period between childhood and adult age.
A fingerprint from a youth or a woman would be smaller than that of a man unless we are talking about a man with some sort of physical disability eg stunted growth. PJ/GA ended up attributing the unidentified fingerprint to GNR officer Nelson da Costa. By virtue of the fact he was a GNR officer (military soldier) this would suggest he did not suffer some sort of physical disability and would no doubt have had to meet some sort of minimum criteria in terms of height/weight ratio.
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Youth = the period between childhood and adult age.
A fingerprint from a youth or a woman would be smaller than that of a man unless we are talking about a man with some sort of physical disability eg stunted growth. PJ/GA ended up attributing the unidentified fingerprint to GNR officer Nelson da Costa. By virtue of the fact he was a GNR officer (military soldier) this would suggest he did not suffer some sort of physical disability and would no doubt have had to meet some sort of minimum criteria in terms of height/weight ratio.
How would you discern the difference between a boy and a girl? Fingerprints I mean, obviously. Bearing in mind, up until about the age of 11, girls are bigger than boys generally.
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Afaik females are not bigger than males at any stage of the growing cycle?
Germany made clear the fingerprint did not originate from a child but a youth or a woman. GNR officer Nelson da Costa was not a youth or a woman.
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Youth = the period between childhood and adult age.
A fingerprint from a youth or a woman would be smaller than that of a man unless we are talking about a man with some sort of physical disability eg stunted growth. PJ/GA ended up attributing the unidentified fingerprint to GNR officer Nelson da Costa. By virtue of the fact he was a GNR officer (military soldier) this would suggest he did not suffer some sort of physical disability and would no doubt have had to meet some sort of minimum criteria in terms of height/weight ratio.
The Germans appeared to be answering the question 'was the print that of a child?'. The answer was no. The 'youth or woman' statement was a guess, although you're determined not to acknowledge that for some reason. In my opinion you need to justify your belief that it wasn't a guess.
There is no method by which a technician can examine a fingerprint and say with absolute certainty (or even measurable probability) that a person who made the print was, for example, an Asian male, any more reliably than he could say that the person who made the print was a blonde male or tall woman.
https://www.quora.com/Is-there-a-gender-based-difference-between-the-fingerprints-of-men-and-women
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The Germans appeared to be answering the question 'was the print that of a child?'. The answer was no. The 'youth or woman' statement was a guess, although you're determined not to acknowledge that for some reason. In my opinion you need to justify your belief that it wasn't a guess.
There is no method by which a technician can examine a fingerprint and say with absolute certainty (or even measurable probability) that a person who made the print was, for example, an Asian male, any more reliably than he could say that the person who made the print was a blonde male or tall woman.
https://www.quora.com/Is-there-a-gender-based-difference-between-the-fingerprints-of-men-and-women
If the Germans appeared to be answering the question 'was the print that of a child?' then why is it only the Germans were asked and responded and not the other countries involved?
We're not talking about identifying race and physical characteristics but the size of the fingerprint to determine gender.
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If the Germans appeared to be answering the question 'was the print that of a child?' then why is it only the Germans were asked and responded and not the other countries involved?
We're not talking about identifying race and physical characteristics but the size of the fingerprint to determine gender.
Please provide a cite supporting your belief that gender can be identified by reference to the size of a fingerprint.
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But you also need to overcome the fact that as far as Germany is concerned the fingerprint originated from a woman or youth. Then you need to explain the contradictory wit stats of the two GNR officers about who searched and what was searched and the fact both make reference to entering via the front door but neither make ref to the patio doors.
No.no. They expressed an opinion that it MIGHT have belonged.
You are the one treating as gospel.
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Please provide a cite supporting your belief that gender can be identified by reference to the size of a fingerprint.
We covered all of this the other day and I provided a cite to an article produced by a forensic scientist.
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How is it determined a finger print is from a woman of youth if the finger print owner is not known,why would a youth's finger print be similar to a womans,a youth generally refers to a male.
It would be the shape and size of the print.
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No.no. They expressed an opinion that it MIGHT have belonged.
You are the one treating as gospel.
Why would Germany narrow it down and say it could have originated from a woman or youth but not a child if it was possible it originated from an adult male?
If you believe it originated from Nelson da Costa then perhaps you can explain why he makes no reference to handling the patio doors in his wit stat?
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We covered all of this the other day and I provided a cite to an article produced by a forensic scientist.
I never realised that amino acids could be detected from a photograph, or are you suggesting that the actual, original print was sent to Germany ?
As these prints were circulated far & wide, I would suggest that the images were sent by email.
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I never realised that amino acids could be detected from a photograph, or are you suggesting that the actual, original print was sent to Germany ?
As these prints were circulated far & wide, I would suggest that the images were sent by email.
I'm not aware Germany used amino acids to determine gender?
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I'm not aware Germany used amino acids to determine gender?
So how would you suggest they did it from a photographic image ?
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Afaik females are not bigger than males at any stage of the growing cycle?
Germany made clear the fingerprint did not originate from a child but a youth or a woman. GNR officer Nelson da Costa was not a youth or a woman.
Nelson da Costa might be a tiny, wee man
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Nelson da Costa might bee a tiny, wee man
Let’s track him down on social media and compare his photos to those of other adult males (that’s if Holly hasn’t already done so).
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Nelson da Costa might bee a tiny, wee man
As I said he was a GNR officer (military soldier) so I would have thought he had to meet some sort of minimum/maximum criteria in terms of height/weight ratio. In any event his wit stat makes no mention of handling the patio door.
My abduction theory/suspect involves a female who just happens to be petite too so I can envisage a situation where the fingerprint originated from her.
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We covered all of this the other day and I provided a cite to an article produced by a forensic scientist.
Please could you re-post? I've tried to find it but I can't.
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As I said he was a GNR officer (military soldier) so I would have thought he had to meet some sort of minimum/maximum criteria in terms of height/weight ratio. In any event his wit stat makes no mention of handling the patio door.
My abduction theory/suspect involves a female who just happens to be petite too so I can envisage a situation where the fingerprint originated from her.
Did your female abductor only touch one surface once?
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Did your female abductor only touch one surface once?
I've no idea it wasn't me and I wasn't there.
But as we discussed in detail yesterday a lack of adequate fingerprints available for analysis is not indicative of no handling or limited handling of items/doors/windows/shutters.
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I've no idea it wasn't me and I wasn't there.
But as we discussed in detail yesterday a lack of adequate fingerprints available for analysis is not indicative of no handling or limited handling of items/doors/windows/shutters.
Remember also potentially this is someone who was on a mission to abduct a child by entering a property she had no right to be in. She may have used her clothes to open the gate/patio door and then with the stress of it all made a mistake. Its how criminals get caught.
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As I said he was a GNR officer (military soldier) so I would have thought he had to meet some sort of minimum/maximum criteria in terms of height/weight ratio. In any event his wit stat makes no mention of handling the patio door.
My abduction theory/suspect involves a female who just happens to be petite too so I can envisage a situation where the fingerprint originated from her.
Do you know if GNR members have height requirements or is that just one of your guesses? The minimum for the British Army is 148cms (4ft 10inches); 158cms for drivers. The average height of British men is 178 cms (5ft 10inches), Portuguese men 172.8cms. Remember it's not the size of the dog in the fight that matters, it's the size of the fight in the dog (as Mark Twain observed).
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Do you know if GNR members have height requirements or is that just one of your guesses? The minimum for the British Army is 148cms (4ft 10inches); 158cms for drivers. The average height of British men is 178 cms (5ft 10inches), Portuguese men 172.8cms. Remember it's not the size of the dog in the fight that matters, it's the size of the fight in the dog (as Mark Twain observed).
Is there any correlation between height/weight and hand size?
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GNR officers wear dark blue trousers and light blue shirts. I recall seeing a couple milling around in such attire and one stuck a note to 5A taping it off as a soc. If these officers were Jose Roque/Nelson Costa both looked 'normal' to me. In fact I thought they looked quite 8**8:/: but I might have been influenced by the uniform!
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Please could you re-post? I've tried to find it but I can't.
Unlike when you told me to basically do one when I asked you for info it's here:
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40747-019-0099-y#targetText=Fingerprints%20are%20collected%20under%20four,the%20given%20image%20is%20female
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11027.msg556158#msg556158
Twice now I've assisted you with info you've requested.
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Unlike when you told me to basically do one when I asked you for info it's here:
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40747-019-0099-y#targetText=Fingerprints%20are%20collected%20under%20four,the%20given%20image%20is%20female
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11027.msg556158#msg556158
Twice now I've assisted you with info you've requested.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11025.msg555861#msg555861
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Unlike when you told me to basically do one when I asked you for info it's here:
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40747-019-0099-y#targetText=Fingerprints%20are%20collected%20under%20four,the%20given%20image%20is%20female
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11027.msg556158#msg556158
Twice now I've assisted you with info you've requested.
Thank you. So if the Germans were using the ridge count method they should have been able to distinguish between a woman and a youth, but they didn't. I am assuming they had no knowledge of the fingertip size.
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http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11025.msg555861#msg555861
I suggested you do some research before making assumptions, which is a different matter.
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Thank you. So if the Germans were using the ridge count method they should have been able to distinguish between a woman and a youth, but they didn't. I am assuming they had no knowledge of the fingertip size.
No it doesn't say anything about age/youths. It refers to distinguishing between gender.
We are told by PJ the unidentified adequate fingerprint found on the side of the patio door was eventually found to have originated from male GNR officer Nelson da Costa. At the time of MM's disappearance he had been a GNR officer since 1994. So he clearly wasn't a male youth. He was an adult male. Germany narrow the fingerprint down as originating from a woman or youth.
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I suggested you do some research before making assumptions, which is a different matter.
No. I asked you to locate the Smithman sighting on a map for me.
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No it doesn't say anything about age/youths. It refers to distinguishing between gender.
We are told by PJ the unidentified adequate fingerprint found on the side of the patio door was eventually found to have originated from male GNR officer Nelson da Costa. At the time of MM's disappearance he had been a GNR officer since 1994. So he clearly wasn't a male youth. He was an adult male. Germany narrow the fingerprint down as originating from a woman or youth.
A youth is normally a male, so the Germans weren't distinguishing between gender.
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No. I asked you to locate the Smithman sighting on a map for me.
Because you were too lazy to do it yourself?
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A youth is normally a male, so the Germans weren't distinguishing between gender.
All human beings enter a youthful period between the stages of childhood and adulthood hence they are referred to as youths eg youth club.
The Germans said the fingerprint could have originated from a youth or woman. Nelson da Costa was neither unless of course he was identifying as male but physiologically female ie a transexual?
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Because you were too lazy to do it yourself?
And your reason(s) for not turning up the link re fingerprints and gender?
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And your reason(s) for not turning up the link re fingerprints and gender?
I searched your previous posts but couldn't find the link. I have put it into the search box and it still doesn't appear. Which of your previous posts quoted that link?
By contrast, a simple google search is all that's needed to find out where Smithman was seen.
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I searched your previous posts but couldn't find the link. I have put it into the search box and it still doesn't appear. Which of your previous posts quoted that link?
By contrast, a simple google search is all that's needed to find out where Smithman was seen.
This is getting tiresome now and I'm calling time on it. I quoted the post and the link today on this thread at post 271 timed at 11.09.05:
https://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11027.msg556739#msg556739
Hoefully G-Unit you will have the grace to acknowledge the above and draw a line under it?
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Here's a list of countries signed up to Interpol so on what basis did PJ single out a few countries to contact re the unidentified fingerprint? Or were more contacted and we're only seeing limited info?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpol#Members
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This is getting tiresome now and I'm calling time on it. I quoted the post and the link today on this thread at post 271 timed at 11.09.05:
https://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11027.msg556739#msg556739
Hoefully G-Unit you will have the grace to acknowledge the above and draw a line under it?
Thank you. So by 'measurements' you are referring to the gaps between ridges, which are larger in males, not to the size of the actual print.
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No. I asked you to locate the Smithman sighting on a map for me.
Which was quickly done by Anthro.
And even more quickly dismissed by you, saying that anyone could put an X on a map.
You asked for it. You got it. You were ungrateful. That is turning out to be par for the course.
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Thank you. So by 'measurements' you are referring to the gaps between ridges, which are larger in males, not to the size of the actual print.
As I said in the post "various measurements".
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Which was quickly done by Anthro.
And even more quickly dismissed by you, saying that anyone could put an X on a map.
You asked for it. You got it. You were ungrateful. That is turning out to be par for the course.
It always pays to double check:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11034.msg556764#msg556764
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11034.msg556770#msg556770
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Any further off-topic posts will be removed on sight.
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Which was quickly done by Anthro.
And even more quickly dismissed by you, saying that anyone could put an X on a map.
You asked for it. You got it. You were ungrateful. That is turning out to be par for the course.
Not to mention clinging to the opinion that the night creche was at the Millennium. I will help anyone with information, but when they refuse to accept it I stop.
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I've had a dodgy internet connection for two days, so lost track. Are you still talking about the sole adequate fingerprint on the patio door?
If so, I've tried again to match the in-situ "unknown" (left photo) and Nelson da Costa's (right photo) prints in size and orientation, then put some red markers at the end of the 13 green arrowheads where bifurcations occur. To my eyes, 12 seem to match in both prints. The only faint one I couldn't make out properly is the lowest one with just a single red line.
So in my extremely humble opinion... it's deffo not that of your secret female abductor, Doctor G.
(https://i.imgur.com/g0gR3NS.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/VknfUzh.png)
I can't increase sizes of the above, so larger attachments below are easier to read...
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I've had a dodgy internet connection for two days, so lost track. Are you still talking about the sole adequate fingerprint on the patio door?
If so, I've tried again to match the in-situ "unknown" (left photo) and Nelson da Costa's (right photo) prints in size and orientation, then put some red markers at the end of the 13 green arrowheads where bifurcations occur. To my eyes, 12 seem to match in both prints. The only faint one I couldn't make out properly is the lowest one with just a single red line.
So in my extremely humble opinion... it's deffo not that of your secret female abductor, Doctor G.
(https://i.imgur.com/g0gR3NS.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/VknfUzh.png)
I can't increase sizes of the above, so larger attachments below are easier to read...
Thanks Myster 8**8:/:
I have no real idea about this but to my eyes the lhs print appears to contain more white areas. If you imagine clock hands they seems to be about the '1' position.
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Thanks Myster 8**8:/:
I have no real idea about this but to my eyes the lhs print appears to contain more white areas. If you imagine clock hands they seems to be about the '1' position.
The pressure of a finger pressing on the patio door was probably much less than the deliberately taken print. You've seen in documentaries how fingertips of those arrested are coated with a liberal quantity of ink, then pressed and rolled firmly from side to side on paper, hence the difference in quality to one at a crime scene. Brushing with Dragon Blood revealer, then lifting the print might also reduce the quality too.
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It would be the shape and size of the print.
Its reckoned each and everyone has a different finger print,so how is there standard to be able to identify a person from an unknown source,this German doesn't differentiate between a youth or a young woman.maybe's or might be's,still it keeps the forum afloat.
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Quite miraculous really, Fingerprints. I can't help wondering who thought that one up.
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Its reckoned each and everyone has a different finger print,so how is there standard to be able to identify a person from an unknown source,this German doesn't differentiate between a youth or a young woman.maybe's or might be's,still it keeps the forum afloat.
Foot prints are also different from each person.
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Foot prints are also different from each person.
Really? I didn't know that. Perhaps God saw all this coming. Freedom of choice and all that.
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Really? I didn't know that. Perhaps God saw all this coming. Freedom of choice and all that.
I watched a true crime episode where a man thinking he was clever took his shoes off to enter an apartment where he killed two girls (I think it was two) anyway he stood on a card that was on the floor and they got a good print of his foot. He didn't live far from the apartment.
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I must say I find it odd that the finger print was described as being from either a youth or a woman. Then the finger print is said to be from one of the Police Officers.
Also strange that the two GNR officers contradicted each other with their statements saying where they searched in the apartment. Aren't Police Officers meant to write down what they do at the time they are there? Or do Police Officers in Portugal work differently to our Police in the UK.
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I must say I find it odd that the finger print was described as being from either a youth or a woman. Then the finger print is said to be from one of the Police Officers.
Also strange that the two GNR officers contradicted each other with their statements saying where they searched in the apartment. Aren't Police Officers meant to write down what they do at the time they are there? Or do Police Officers in Portugal work differently to our Police in the UK.
I thought UK police wrote things down after the event so that their statements agreed 8(0(*
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I thought UK police wrote things down after the event so that their statements agreed 8(0(*
They write things down as to not forget what they did or what they heard.
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They write things down as to not forget what they did or what they heard.
Pretty normal for me. I'd be way more wary of two identical accounts, suggesting collusion. So actually it suggests that they were both hiding nothing.
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Pretty normal for me. I'd be way more wary of two identical accounts, suggesting collusion. So actually it suggests that they were both hiding nothing.
You would be more wary of two identical accounts, from Police Officers, really? I wouldn't, good grief they are supposed to write down exactly what happened and what was said.
It is not uncommon for ordinary public to contradict each other, but not Police Officers.
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I watched a true crime episode where a man thinking he was clever took his shoes off to enter an apartment where he killed two girls (I think it was two) anyway he stood on a card that was on the floor and they got a good print of his foot. He didn't live far from the apartment.
To do that is it right to assume casts were taken of suspects feet,in this case its not even determined whether the finger print is of a youth which usually which refers to the male of the species or a woman,narrows it right down .
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To do that is it right to assume casts were taken of suspects feet,in this case its not even determined whether the finger print is of a youth which usually which refers to the male of the species or a woman,narrows it right down .
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1752928X18302750