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Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: debunker on April 03, 2013, 09:04:15 PM
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Let's have a well sourced debate about Dogs and DNA
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Let's have a well sourced debate about Dogs and DNA
Unfortunately you are not interested in debate, merely raising hackles.
You also don't answer pertinent questions.
Merely deflect attention.
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Frightened to debate eh?
Answer these questions:
What odor does Eddie the Cadaver dog alert to?
What odor does Keela the Blood dog alert to?
What does a single alert by either mean?
Why are the deployed together?
reasonable questions awaiting a reasonable response
The silence speaks volumes.
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Frightened to debate eh?
Answer these questions:
What odor does Eddie the Cadaver dog alert to?
What odor does Keela the Blood dog alert to?
What does a single alert by either mean?
Why are the deployed together?
Are you asking these questions because you don't know the answers ?
I rarely ask questions to which I do not know the answer. I frequently ask questions to people who think they know the answer but are wrong.
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For the benefit of the uninformed, ie. me, could someone please offer their views on the evidence collected by the dogs?
It is cited as being a major piece of evidence, in the case against the McCanns. Would be nice to hear it debated.
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For the benefit of the uninformed, ie. me, could someone please offer their views on the evidence collected by the dogs?
It is cited as being a major piece of evidence, in the case against the McCanns. Would be nice to hear it debated.
I think the best place to start is with the summary by the dog handler himself in his own report.
"SUMMARY
The tasking for this operation was as per my normal Standard Operating
Procedures. The dogs are deployed as search assets to secure evidence and
locate human remains or Human blood.
The dogs only alerted to property associated with the McCann family. The dog
alert indications MUST be corroborated if to establish their findings as
evidence.
Therefore in this particular case, as no human remains were located, the only
alert indications that may become corroborated are those that the CSI dog
indicated by forensic laboratory analysis.
My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is
suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant. This does not however
suggest a motive or suspect as cross contamination could be as a result of a
number of given scenarios and in any event no evidential or intelligence
reliability can be made from these alerts unless they can be confirmed with
corroborating evidence."
He does not even claim for certain that there was cadaver scent, never mind that it was definitely related to Madeleine McCann.
The point made earlier by another poster that an alert is meaningless unless corroborated by forensics is very important. The example given was a dog alerting when searching for a bomb but no bomb is found. Should that building be permanently under suspicion? Should the McCanns be permanently under suspicion based on uncorroborated alerts?
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Frightened to debate eh?
Answer these questions:
What odor does Eddie the Cadaver dog alert to?
What odor does Keela the Blood dog alert to?
What does a single alert by either mean?
Why are the deployed together?
Are you asking these questions because you don't know the answers ?
I rarely ask questions to which I do not know the answer. I frequently ask questions to people who think they know the answer but are wrong.
I know very little about cadaver dogs so I'm afraid I cannot debate with you on the technicalities of their abilities/uses
Given that you are well informed on the subject though, perhaps I could ask a question that has always bothered me
There was no conclusive forensic evidence gathered to verify the cadaver dog's alert in the McCann apartment or car which has lead bto the conclusion that the dog must have wrong
What was it that made him alert then ?
Whatever it was, it was exclusive to the McCanns and existed in none of the other apartments or cars that the dog was presented with
What could it have been
That's always troubled me
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Thanks Gilet
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For the benefit of the uninformed, ie. me, could someone please offer their views on the evidence collected by the dogs?
It is cited as being a major piece of evidence, in the case against the McCanns. Would be nice to hear it debated.
Without providing links (which I could do ad nauseam)
My personal take is that:
Martin Grime provided the dogs - Duarte Levy - a journalist of colourful provenance - he has at least 2 other names and 3 passports, filmed the 'alerts' - sold the video of the whole thing to the Sun newspaper (motivational factors anyone?)
The Forensic Science Service in B'ham analysed the material found upon the alerts - no sufficient match with Madeleine's DNA could be established - scientifically
Which didn't stop the detractors of Gerry and Kate to elevate the two moggies into stardom
Follow the sandal, indeed
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Frightened to debate eh?
Answer these questions:
What odor does Eddie the Cadaver dog alert to?
What odor does Keela the Blood dog alert to?
What does a single alert by either mean?
Why are the deployed together?
Are you asking these questions because you don't know the answers ?
I rarely ask questions to which I do not know the answer. I frequently ask questions to people who think they know the answer but are wrong.
I know very little about cadaver dogs so I'm afraid I cannot debate with you on the technicalities of their abilities/uses
Given that you are well informed on the subject though, perhaps I could ask a question that has always bothered me
There was no conclusive forensic evidence gathered to verify the cadaver dog's alert in the McCann apartment or car which has lead bto the conclusion that the dog must have wrong
What was it that made him alert then ?
Whatever it was, it was exclusive to the McCanns and existed in none of the other apartments or cars that the dog was presented with
What could it have been
That's always troubled me
Well said.
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@ Stephen25000
Let us start with basics before getting complicated
What odor does Eddie the Cadaver dog alert to?
What odor does Keela the Blood dog alert to?
What does a single alert by either mean?
Why are the deployed together?
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@ Stephen25000
Let us start with basics before getting complicated
What odor does Eddie the Cadaver dog alert to?
What odor does Keela the Blood dog alert to?
What does a single alert by either mean?
Why are the deployed together?
these are straightforward questions - I await the answers with trepidation
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Most [ censored word] get the answers completely wrong.
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@ Stephen25000
Let us start with basics before getting complicated
What odor does Eddie the Cadaver dog alert to?
What odor does Keela the Blood dog alert to?
What does a single alert by either mean?
Why are the deployed together?
I await the the answer to my question first.
Now let's try you on a basic piece of simple science first.
Can you provide me with a list of compounds which these dogs can alert to ?
P.S. I hold degrees in Science, including one in Chemistry.
Here's a simple task for you.
Provide a pathway for the synthesis of Benzene from Carbon.
Please don't bother googling it, that won't impress me.
Do you know what !,5 Diaminopentane/Pentane-1,2-diammine is ?
There's a whole lot more to follow. 8((()*/
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@ Stephen25000
Let us start with basics before getting complicated
What odor does Eddie the Cadaver dog alert to?
What odor does Keela the Blood dog alert to?
What does a single alert by either mean?
Why are the deployed together?
Please debunker, if you already know the answers why do you not just post them yourself ... for the benefit of other members, like me, who do not know ?
It seems you pose the questions for no other reason than to taunt other members, which is a shame, and not really in keeping with what the purpose of the UK Justice forum appears to be, to me
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P.S. I hold degrees in Science, including one in Chemistry
unquote
wow, we have a scientist amongst us
what honour - if only the pretendy law enforcement officers could join us tonight
we can solve the case before the test card comes on
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@ Stephen25000
Let us start with basics before getting complicated
What odor does Eddie the Cadaver dog alert to?
What odor does Keela the Blood dog alert to?
What does a single alert by either mean?
Why are the deployed together?
I await the the answer to my question first.
Now let's try you on a basic piece of simple science first.
Can you provide me with a list of compounds which these dogs can alert to ?
P.S. I hold degrees in Science, including one in Chemistry.
Here's a simple task for you.
Provide a pathway for the synthesis of Benzene from Carbon.
Please don't bother googling it, that won't impress me.
Do you know what !,5 Diaminopentane/Pentane-1,2-diammine is ?
There's a whole lot more to follow. 8((()*/
Stephen, answer Debunker's VERY simple questions first please
If you care to retain any credibility
and yes - you may google away
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@ Stephen25000
Let us start with basics before getting complicated
What odor does Eddie the Cadaver dog alert to?
What odor does Keela the Blood dog alert to?
What does a single alert by either mean?
Why are the deployed together?
I await the the answer to my question first.
Now let's try you on a basic piece of simple science first.
Can you provide me with a list of compounds which these dogs can alert to ?
P.S. I hold degrees in Science, including one in Chemistry.
Here's a simple task for you.
Provide a pathway for the synthesis of Benzene from Carbon.
Please don't bother googling it, that won't impress me.
Do you know what !,5 Diaminopentane/Pentane-1,2-diammine is ?
There's a whole lot more to follow. 8((()*/
ALL delaying bullshit.
THe chemical is cadaverine, dogs also react to putresine.
MY organic chemistry is 45 years post A level.
NOw stop showingyourself up and answer my questions.
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P.S. I hold degrees in Science, including one in Chemistry
unquote
wow, we have a scientist amongst us
what honour - if only the pretendy law enforcement officers could join us tonight
we can solve the case before the test card comes on
Stupid comments like that are the hallmark of what I have come to expect from the extreme supporters of the Mccanns.
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P.S. I hold degrees in Science, including one in Chemistry
unquote
wow, we have a scientist amongst us
what honour - if only the pretendy law enforcement officers could join us tonight
we can solve the case before the test card comes on
Stupid comments like that are the hallmark of what I have come to expect from the extreme supporters of the Mccanns.
ANswer the questions.
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P.S. I hold degrees in Science, including one in Chemistry
unquote
wow, we have a scientist amongst us
what honour - if only the pretendy law enforcement officers could join us tonight
we can solve the case before the test card comes on
Stupid comments like that are the hallmark of what I have come to expect from the extreme supporters of the Mccanns.
ANswer the questions.
come on Stephen - all those years at uni - no doubt at my expense
I expect FIREWORKS of logic and reason
No less
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@ Stephen25000
Let us start with basics before getting complicated
What odor does Eddie the Cadaver dog alert to?
What odor does Keela the Blood dog alert to?
What does a single alert by either mean?
Why are the deployed together?
I await the the answer to my question first.
Now let's try you on a basic piece of simple science first.
Can you provide me with a list of compounds which these dogs can alert to ?
P.S. I hold degrees in Science, including one in Chemistry.
Here's a simple task for you.
Provide a pathway for the synthesis of Benzene from Carbon.
Please don't bother googling it, that won't impress me.
Do you know what !,5 Diaminopentane/Pentane-1,2-diammine is ?
There's a whole lot more to follow. 8((()*/
ALL delaying bullshit.
THe chemical is cadaverine, dogs also react to putresine.
MY organic chemistry is 45 years post A level.
NOw stop showingyourself up and answer my questions.
I'm delaying nothing.
You clearly are getting angry.
Again you can't answer questions.
P.S. Dogs react to far more compounds than that. The ones you gave can easily be accessed from google.
So please keep trying.
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P.S. I hold degrees in Science, including one in Chemistry
unquote
wow, we have a scientist amongst us
what honour - if only the pretendy law enforcement officers could join us tonight
we can solve the case before the test card comes on
Stupid comments like that are the hallmark of what I have come to expect from the extreme supporters of the Mccanns.
ANswer the questions.
Who do you think you are, demanding answers to questions, which you clearly would not comprehend ?
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So no answers to straightforward questions re. the dogs from Stephen??
Despite degrees in science coming out of his ears?
Bit of a disappointment
But not entirely unexpected @)(++(*
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P.S. I hold degrees in Science, including one in Chemistry
unquote
wow, we have a scientist amongst us
what honour - if only the pretendy law enforcement officers could join us tonight
we can solve the case before the test card comes on
Stupid comments like that are the hallmark of what I have come to expect from the extreme supporters of the Mccanns.
I am most definitely not an extreme supporter of the McCanns. I am very much looking forward to reading your answers to Debunkers questions.
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@ Stephen25000
Let us start with basics before getting complicated
What odor does Eddie the Cadaver dog alert to?
What odor does Keela the Blood dog alert to?
What does a single alert by either mean?
Why are the deployed together?
I await the the answer to my question first.
Now let's try you on a basic piece of simple science first.
Can you provide me with a list of compounds which these dogs can alert to ?
P.S. I hold degrees in Science, including one in Chemistry.
Here's a simple task for you.
Provide a pathway for the synthesis of Benzene from Carbon.
Please don't bother googling it, that won't impress me.
Do you know what !,5 Diaminopentane/Pentane-1,2-diammine is ?
There's a whole lot more to follow. 8((()*/
ALL delaying bullshit.
THe chemical is cadaverine, dogs also react to putresine.
MY organic chemistry is 45 years post A level.
NOw stop showingyourself up and answer my questions.
I'm delaying nothing.
You clearly are getting angry.
Again you can't answer questions.
P.S. Dogs react to far more compounds than that. The ones you gave can easily be accessed from google.
So please keep trying.
I never get angry, just frustrated at people who can't give straight answers.
I know that dogs react to many compounds; I just gave the most common pair. All from memory.
Now answer my simple questionsbefore you are laughed off this board.
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So no answers to straightforward questions re. the dogs from Stephen??
Despite degrees in science coming out of his ears?
Bit of a disappointment
But not entirely unexpected @)(++(*
I presume you are of the Manuel school of thought 8)-)))
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Can I ask you seriously to explain how you think a poster here can actually tell us the motives for Kate McCann doing what you claim she did regarding the book.
What evidence would they have? How could they do anything but guess blindly as to the motive?
I will give you my guess.
If what you say about the book is true then she probably removed it because she realised it was possibly wrong and did not wish to mislead people.
But its a guess as there is no way of knowing.
Now could you answer the questions about the dogs that have been posed to you? And till you have answered those could you stop playing games with your distraction comments about your scientific background and your odd attempts to blind people with that knowledge?
Possibly the most important question relating to the dogs is why you treat them as evidence when the dog handler himself was very clear that their alerts were not evidence? He is adamant that without corroborative forensics (which were not found) the alerts are not to be treated as evidence.
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So no answers to straightforward questions re. the dogs from Stephen??
Despite degrees in science coming out of his ears?
Bit of a disappointment
But not entirely unexpected @)(++(*
I presume you are of the Manuel school of thought 8)-)))
8(>(( answer Debunker's clear and concise questions please
You are quite the Academic after all
Shouldn't test you unduly
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@ Stephen25000
Let us start with basics before getting complicated
What odor does Eddie the Cadaver dog alert to?
What odor does Keela the Blood dog alert to?
What does a single alert by either mean?
Why are the deployed together?
I await the the answer to my question first.
Now let's try you on a basic piece of simple science first.
Can you provide me with a list of compounds which these dogs can alert to ?
P.S. I hold degrees in Science, including one in Chemistry.
Here's a simple task for you.
Provide a pathway for the synthesis of Benzene from Carbon.
Please don't bother googling it, that won't impress me.
Do you know what !,5 Diaminopentane/Pentane-1,2-diammine is ?
There's a whole lot more to follow. 8((()*/
ALL delaying bullshit.
THe chemical is cadaverine, dogs also react to putresine.
MY organic chemistry is 45 years post A level.
NOw stop showingyourself up and answer my questions.
I'm delaying nothing.
You clearly are getting angry.
Again you can't answer questions.
P.S. Dogs react to far more compounds than that. The ones you gave can easily be accessed from google.
So please keep trying.
I never get angry, just frustrated at people who can't give straight answers.
I know that dogs react to many compounds; I just gave the most common pair. All from memory.
Now answer my simple questionsbefore you are laughed off this board.
Let's try this again.
No more googling please, it's unbecoming.
meanwhile you aren't answering questions, merely evading, as per normal behaviour in 'mccannites' as they have become to be known.
In terms of sheer probability 8)-))) you picked the two compounds which have been mentioned on numerous forums.
P.S. I'm here to stay 8(8-)) 8)--))
Meanwhile have a good evening festering on subjects you pretend to have knowledge of, but clearly don't.
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Answers to my questions
KEela the blood dog alerts to blood
EDdie the cadaverdog reacts to blood and cadaver odor.
SO what do individual reactions of a single dog tell us? Most important, what does an isolated alert from Eddie tell us?
ANyone not believe that or anyone able to answer the question s above?
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I don't pretend to have any knowledge. Please, for f**ks sake, enlighten me. 8((()*/
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Stephen25000 whether you have a scientific background or not is largely irrelevant. You have no more knowledge of the case than any other person who has encountered the information about the dog alerts in the PJ files.
The key part of Martin Grime's summary is that the alerts do not constitute evidence. Why do you obsess about the alerts and use them to denigrate the McCanns?
It is very clear that you are avoiding answering questions put to you. Why are you doing that?
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Stephen the scientist wrote:
'Meanwhile have a good evening festering on subjects you pretend to have knowledge of, but clearly don't.'
That's poor, Stephen
Debunker asked simple questions - you, the scholar never went near to answering those
I conclude - you are intellectual fluff - I shan't be wasting my time with henceforth
Apart from bursting your bubble of hubris whenever the need arises
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Any alert by Eddie could be an alert to dried blood from a living person.
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Answers to my questions
KEela the blood dog alerts to blood
EDdie the cadaverdog reacts to blood and cadaver odor.
SO what do individual reactions of a single dog tell us? Most important, what does an isolated alert from Eddie tell us?
ANyone not believe that or anyone able to answer the question s above?
Well, since you open the question to all, I'll take a stab at it ( although I have already mentioned that I am no expert )
I would guess that if both Keela ( the blood dog ) and Eddie ( the cadaver dog ) alerted in the same place, then it would be possible that someone had bled and died in that location.
If Eddie, alone, alerted, then it might be supposed that a dead body that had not bled had been in that location at some point
I'm almost afraid to post an honest reply like that because this thread is quite intimidating and has an aura of bullying about it
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Answers to my questions
KEela the blood dog alerts to blood
EDdie the cadaverdog reacts to blood and cadaver odor.
SO what do individual reactions of a single dog tell us? Most important, what does an isolated alert from Eddie tell us?
ANyone not believe that or anyone able to answer the question s above?
Well, since you open the question to all, I'll take a stab at it ( although I have already mentioned that I am no expert )
I would guess that if both Keela ( the blood dog ) and Eddie ( the cadaver dog ) alerted in the same place, then it would be possible that someone had bled and died in that location.
If Eddie, alone, alerted, then it might be supposed that a dead body that had not bled had been in that location at some point
I'm almost afraid to post an honest reply like that because this thread is quite intimidating and has an aura of bullying about it
I apologise if I have contributed to that aura, it's born out of frustration. Your thoughts are much appreciated.
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Answers to my questions
KEela the blood dog alerts to blood
EDdie the cadaverdog reacts to blood and cadaver odor.
SO what do individual reactions of a single dog tell us? Most important, what does an isolated alert from Eddie tell us?
ANyone not believe that or anyone able to answer the question s above?
Well, since you open the question to all, I'll take a stab at it ( although I have already mentioned that I am no expert )
I would guess that if both Keela ( the blood dog ) and Eddie ( the cadaver dog ) alerted in the same place, then it would be possible that someone had bled and died in that location.
If Eddie, alone, alerted, then it might be supposed that a dead body that had not bled had been in that location at some point
I'm almost afraid to post an honest reply like that because this thread is quite intimidating and has an aura of bullying about it
That would be more or less my presumption too. But there is the proviso that I expect the EVRD dog (Eddie) also alerts to dried blood from a living person. I am no expert but surely any part of a body (ranging from a severed arm to dead skin and dried blood) would also create minute amounts of cadaver scent as they are effectively part of a dead body?
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Answers to my questions
KEela the blood dog alerts to blood
EDdie the cadaverdog reacts to blood and cadaver odor.
SO what do individual reactions of a single dog tell us? Most important, what does an isolated alert from Eddie tell us?
ANyone not believe that or anyone able to answer the question s above?
Well, since you open the question to all, I'll take a stab at it ( although I have already mentioned that I am no expert )
I would guess that if both Keela ( the blood dog ) and Eddie ( the cadaver dog ) alerted in the same place, then it would be possible that someone had bled and died in that location.
If Eddie, alone, alerted, then it might be supposed that a dead body that had not bled had been in that location at some point
I'm almost afraid to post an honest reply like that because this thread is quite intimidating and has an aura of bullying about it
That would be more or less my presumption too. But there is the proviso that I expect the EVRD dog (Eddie) also alerts to dried blood from a living person. I am no expert but surely any part of a body (ranging from a severed arm to dead skin and dried blood) would also create minute amounts of cadaver scent as they are effectively part of a dead body?
or commercially available cadaverine scent
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Answers to my questions
KEela the blood dog alerts to blood
EDdie the cadaverdog reacts to blood and cadaver odor.
SO what do individual reactions of a single dog tell us? Most important, what does an isolated alert from Eddie tell us?
ANyone not believe that or anyone able to answer the question s above?
Well, since you open the question to all, I'll take a stab at it ( although I have already mentioned that I am no expert )
I would guess that if both Keela ( the blood dog ) and Eddie ( the cadaver dog ) alerted in the same place, then it would be possible that someone had bled and died in that location.
If Eddie, alone, alerted, then it might be supposed that a dead body that had not bled had been in that location at some point
I'm almost afraid to post an honest reply like that because this thread is quite intimidating and has an aura of bullying about it
That would be more or less my presumption too. But there is the proviso that I expect the EVRD dog (Eddie) also alerts to dried blood from a living person. I am no expert but surely any part of a body (ranging from a severed arm to dead skin and dried blood) would also create minute amounts of cadaver scent as they are effectively part of a dead body?
But if that were the case gilet, cadaver dogs would be worthless ... they'd be alerting inaccurately all over the place
As far as I am aware, they are very valued by the police and law enforcement agencies who use them, which suggests their reliability is trusted
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Answers to my questions
KEela the blood dog alerts to blood
EDdie the cadaverdog reacts to blood and cadaver odor.
SO what do individual reactions of a single dog tell us? Most important, what does an isolated alert from Eddie tell us?
ANyone not believe that or anyone able to answer the question s above?
Well, since you open the question to all, I'll take a stab at it ( although I have already mentioned that I am no expert )
I would guess that if both Keela ( the blood dog ) and Eddie ( the cadaver dog ) alerted in the same place, then it would be possible that someone had bled and died in that location.
If Eddie, alone, alerted, then it might be supposed that a dead body that had not bled had been in that location at some point
I'm almost afraid to post an honest reply like that because this thread is quite intimidating and has an aura of bullying about it
That would be more or less my presumption too. But there is the proviso that I expect the EVRD dog (Eddie) also alerts to dried blood from a living person. I am no expert but surely any part of a body (ranging from a severed arm to dead skin and dried blood) would also create minute amounts of cadaver scent as they are effectively part of a dead body?
This is correct. It is what the [ censored word] are afraid of and why they run away when confronted (or just arse about like Stephen25000).
Eddie reacts to dried blood and cadaver. An alert my him means that either or both blood and cadaver scents are present. Eddie reacts to dried blood from a living person.
It is only indicative of cadaver odor IF Keela DOES NOT REACT.
HOw often did this happen?
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one of many:
http://leerburg.com/cadaver.htm
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Answers to my questions
KEela the blood dog alerts to blood
EDdie the cadaverdog reacts to blood and cadaver odor.
SO what do individual reactions of a single dog tell us? Most important, what does an isolated alert from Eddie tell us?
ANyone not believe that or anyone able to answer the question s above?
Well, since you open the question to all, I'll take a stab at it ( although I have already mentioned that I am no expert )
I would guess that if both Keela ( the blood dog ) and Eddie ( the cadaver dog ) alerted in the same place, then it would be possible that someone had bled and died in that location.
If Eddie, alone, alerted, then it might be supposed that a dead body that had not bled had been in that location at some point
I'm almost afraid to post an honest reply like that because this thread is quite intimidating and has an aura of bullying about it
That would be more or less my presumption too. But there is the proviso that I expect the EVRD dog (Eddie) also alerts to dried blood from a living person. I am no expert but surely any part of a body (ranging from a severed arm to dead skin and dried blood) would also create minute amounts of cadaver scent as they are effectively part of a dead body?
But if that were the case gilet, cadaver dogs would be worthless ... they'd be alerting inaccurately all over the place
As far as I am aware, they are very valued by the police and law enforcement agencies who use them, which suggests their reliability is trusted
I cannot explain the inconsistency between the logic of even tiny body remains being sources of cadaver scent and the police reliance on these dogs. I am not certain that EVRD dogs are that commonly used but clearly they are sometimes put in the field.
If someone can explain this to me I would be very grateful.
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I don't pretend to have any knowledge. Please, for f**ks sake, enlighten me. 8((()*/
That's pretty much where I am too, Sika.
One thing that has always puzzled me...what was Kate's reason for washing "Cuddlecat"? I think if it was me, I'd have kept it in a sealed bag to preserve Maddy's scent.
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Answers to my questions
KEela the blood dog alerts to blood
EDdie the cadaverdog reacts to blood and cadaver odor.
SO what do individual reactions of a single dog tell us? Most important, what does an isolated alert from Eddie tell us?
ANyone not believe that or anyone able to answer the question s above?
Well, since you open the question to all, I'll take a stab at it ( although I have already mentioned that I am no expert )
I would guess that if both Keela ( the blood dog ) and Eddie ( the cadaver dog ) alerted in the same place, then it would be possible that someone had bled and died in that location.
If Eddie, alone, alerted, then it might be supposed that a dead body that had not bled had been in that location at some point
I'm almost afraid to post an honest reply like that because this thread is quite intimidating and has an aura of bullying about it
That would be more or less my presumption too. But there is the proviso that I expect the EVRD dog (Eddie) also alerts to dried blood from a living person. I am no expert but surely any part of a body (ranging from a severed arm to dead skin and dried blood) would also create minute amounts of cadaver scent as they are effectively part of a dead body?
This is correct. It is what the [ censored word] are afraid of and why they run away when confronted (or just ar.. about like Stephen25000).
Eddie reacts to dried blood and cadaver. An alert my him means that either or both blood and cadaver scents are present. Eddie reacts to dried blood from a living person.
It is only indicative of cadaver odor IF Keela DOES NOT REACT.
HOw often did this happen?
What if the body of a living ( but dying ) person bled in a particular location, and the person went on to die there
If the body was then removed, wouldn't both Keela and Eddie alert to the spot ?
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Answers to my questions
KEela the blood dog alerts to blood
EDdie the cadaverdog reacts to blood and cadaver odor.
SO what do individual reactions of a single dog tell us? Most important, what does an isolated alert from Eddie tell us?
LP
ANyone not believe that or anyone able to answer the question s above?
Well, since you open the question to all, I'll take a stab at it ( although I have already mentioned that I am no expert )
I would guess that if both Keela ( the blood dog ) and Eddie ( the cadaver dog ) alerted in the same place, then it would be possible that someone had bled and died in that location.
If Eddie, alone, alerted, then it might be supposed that a dead body that had not bled had been in that location at some point
I'm almost afraid to post an honest reply like that because this thread is quite intimidating and has an aura of bullying about it
That would be more or less my presumption too. But there is the proviso that I expect the EVRD dog (Eddie) also alerts to dried blood from a living person. I am no expert but surely any part of a body (ranging from a severed arm to dead skin and dried blood) would also create minute amounts of cadaver scent as they are effectively part of a dead body?
But if that were the case gilet, cadaver dogs would be worthless ... they'd be alerting inaccurately all over the place
As far as I am aware, they are very valued by the police and law enforcement agencies who use them, which suggests their reliability is trusted
Cadaver dogs will react to odors from products of putrefaction such as Cadaverine and Putresine. Hair and nails donot putrify but wounds, menstrual flow, infected urine and seminal fluid do emit such odors.
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I don't pretend to have any knowledge. Please, for f**ks sake, enlighten me. 8((()*/
That's pretty much where I am too, Sika.
One thing that has always puzzled me...what was Kate's reason for washing "Cuddlecat"? I think if it was me, I'd have kept it in a sealed bag to preserve Maddy's scent.
The cuddlecat toy was washed on Thursday July 12th more than two months after Madeleine went missing. As Kate had been carrying it around for the whole of that time then I suspect there was not the slightest chance of Kate recognising anything but the scent of herself, the twins and things like the sun cream she said was on the toy by that stage. It was probably quite filthy to be honest.
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For the benefit of the uninformed, ie. me, could someone please offer their views on the evidence collected by the dogs?
It is cited as being a major piece of evidence, in the case against the McCanns. Would be nice to hear it debated.
I think the best place to start is with the summary by the dog handler himself in his own report.
"SUMMARY
The tasking for this operation was as per my normal Standard Operating
Procedures. The dogs are deployed as search assets to secure evidence and
locate human remains or Human blood.
The dogs only alerted to property associated with the McCann family. The dog
alert indications MUST be corroborated if to establish their findings as
evidence.
Therefore in this particular case, as no human remains were located, the only
alert indications that may become corroborated are those that the CSI dog
indicated by forensic laboratory analysis.
My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is
suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant. This does not however
suggest a motive or suspect as cross contamination could be as a result of a
number of given scenarios and in any event no evidential or intelligence
reliability can be made from these alerts unless they can be confirmed with
corroborating evidence."
He does not even claim for certain that there was cadaver scent, never mind that it was definitely related to Madeleine McCann.
The point made earlier by another poster that an alert is meaningless unless corroborated by forensics is very important. The example given was a dog alerting when searching for a bomb but no bomb is found. Should that building be permanently under suspicion? Should the McCanns be permanently under suspicion based on uncorroborated alerts?
So to put it bluntly from the viewpoint of the dog handler the whole exercise was a complete waste of time?
-
I note that Stephen25000 is lurking but not posting. I wonder why?
-
I don't pretend to have any knowledge. Please, for f**ks sake, enlighten me. 8((()*/
That's pretty much where I am too, Sika.
One thing that has always puzzled me...what was Kate's reason for washing "Cuddlecat"? I think if it was me, I'd have kept it in a sealed bag to preserve Maddy's scent.
The cuddlecat toy was washed on Thursday July 12th more than two months after Madeleine went missing. As Kate had been carrying it around for the whole of that time then I suspect there was not the slightest chance of Kate recognising anything but the scent of herself, the twins and things like the sun cream she said was on the toy by that stage. It was probably quite filthy to be honest.
Thanks, gilet. I didn't realise that the toy had been washed so long after Maddy went missing. So much information to plough through.
-
I note that Stephen25000 is lurking but not posting. I wonder why?
You could say that he has been well and truly, debunked!
-
For the benefit of the uninformed, ie. me, could someone please offer their views on the evidence collected by the dogs?
It is cited as being a major piece of evidence, in the case against the McCanns. Would be nice to hear it debated.
I think the best place to start is with the summary by the dog handler himself in his own report.
"SUMMARY
The tasking for this operation was as per my normal Standard Operating
Procedures. The dogs are deployed as search assets to secure evidence and
locate human remains or Human blood.
The dogs only alerted to property associated with the McCann family. The dog
alert indications MUST be corroborated if to establish their findings as
evidence.
Therefore in this particular case, as no human remains were located, the only
alert indications that may become corroborated are those that the CSI dog
indicated by forensic laboratory analysis.
My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is
suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant. This does not however
suggest a motive or suspect as cross contamination could be as a result of a
number of given scenarios and in any event no evidential or intelligence
reliability can be made from these alerts unless they can be confirmed with
corroborating evidence."
He does not even claim for certain that there was cadaver scent, never mind that it was definitely related to Madeleine McCann.
The point made earlier by another poster that an alert is meaningless unless corroborated by forensics is very important. The example given was a dog alerting when searching for a bomb but no bomb is found. Should that building be permanently under suspicion? Should the McCanns be permanently under suspicion based on uncorroborated alerts?
So to put it bluntly from the viewpoint of the dog handler the whole exercise was a complete waste of time?
If a dog alerted to explosives on a plane I was about to board, and following a search I was told, "It's OK, we couldn't find any bomb, you can get on board now" .... would I get on it ?
Not a chance
Would you John ?
-
He is currently reading this thread.
-
It was a complete waste of time for the dog handler, for which he was handsomely paid.
-
For the benefit of the uninformed, ie. me, could someone please offer their views on the evidence collected by the dogs?
It is cited as being a major piece of evidence, in the case against the McCanns. Would be nice to hear it debated.
I think the best place to start is with the summary by the dog handler himself in his own report.
"SUMMARY
The tasking for this operation was as per my normal Standard Operating
Procedures. The dogs are deployed as search assets to secure evidence and
locate human remains or Human blood.
The dogs only alerted to property associated with the McCann family. The dog
alert indications MUST be corroborated if to establish their findings as
evidence.
Therefore in this particular case, as no human remains were located, the only
alert indications that may become corroborated are those that the CSI dog
indicated by forensic laboratory analysis.
My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is
suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant. This does not however
suggest a motive or suspect as cross contamination could be as a result of a
number of given scenarios and in any event no evidential or intelligence
reliability can be made from these alerts unless they can be confirmed with
corroborating evidence."
He does not even claim for certain that there was cadaver scent, never mind that it was definitely related to Madeleine McCann.
The point made earlier by another poster that an alert is meaningless unless corroborated by forensics is very important. The example given was a dog alerting when searching for a bomb but no bomb is found. Should that building be permanently under suspicion? Should the McCanns be permanently under suspicion based on uncorroborated alerts?
So to put it bluntly from the viewpoint of the dog handler the whole exercise was a complete waste of time?
It would seem he is definitely saying that the EVRD dog evidence is worthless as evidence but he does hold out hope that maybe some of the blood samples might be of more value and after forensic analysis provide some clues as to where Madeleine had been (or even been hurt). But as we now know there was no direct forensic connection made to Madeleine so even the blood dog alerts did not get corroborated and could not be used.
Whoever leaked those wildly inaccurate stories to the Portuguese and UK media and effectively started these myths about the case should hang their heads in shame. I think we all know after Leveson that the source was within the Portuguese Police. Maybe some day we will learn the names?
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Try Amaral.
-
The important fact to grasp is that misinterpretation of the dog evidence and DNA evidence not only confused the [ censored word], but that the PJ were also confused and in error.
-
It was a complete waste of time for the dog handler, for which he was handsomely paid.
60 odd thousand pounds
followed by 90 odd k's in Jersey
where equally no body was ever found
-
Stephen25000 is still reading this thread.
-
@ Stephen25000
Let us start with basics before getting complicated
What odor does Eddie the Cadaver dog alert to?
What odor does Keela the Blood dog alert to?
What does a single alert by either mean?
Why are the deployed together?
I await the the answer to my question first.
Now let's try you on a basic piece of simple science first.
Can you provide me with a list of compounds which these dogs can alert to ?
P.S. I hold degrees in Science, including one in Chemistry.
Here's a simple task for you.
Provide a pathway for the synthesis of Benzene from Carbon.
Please don't bother googling it, that won't impress me.
Do you know what !,5 Diaminopentane/Pentane-1,2-diammine is ?
There's a whole lot more to follow. 8((()*/
All this serves to show is that the issue of the cadaver dogs is well overrated and more of a hit and miss depending on any amount of variables prevailing on the day. No wonder the dog handler keeps a dignified silence.
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If a dog alerted to explosives on a plane I was about to board, and following a search I was told, "It's OK, we couldn't find any bomb, you can get on board now" .... would I get on it ?
Not a chance
Would you John ?
I have actually done precisely that, not in relation to an airplane but to a building. An office in which I worked was reported to have been a bomb target some years ago. The building was searched extensively, initially with dogs. One dog alerted in a particular section. The other dog (I believe it was an army dog) did not. The building was searched over a period of eighteen hours before we were told it was safe.
We then reported for work as usual the following morning.
What do you suggest should have happened? Should the building have been declared off limits or even demolished? Would you suggest the same happens to planes? When they are searched and the dog alert is shown to be false should the plane be put on the scrap heap?
Please do explain as that would appear to be the conclusion from your statement?
-
He is currently reading this thread.
debunker, please forgive me if I've missed this, I'm struggling with the mountains of information currently being posted - has anyone put up the brief video of Gerry McCann laughing?
-
He is currently reading this thread.
debunker, please forgive me if I've missed this, I'm struggling with the mountains of information currently being posted - has anyone put up the brief video of Gerry McCann laughing?
How is that related to dogs and DNA? Is this another attempt to disrupt the topic?
-
He is currently reading this thread.
debunker, please forgive me if I've missed this, I'm struggling with the mountains of information currently being posted - has anyone put up the brief video of Gerry McCann laughing?
Shock horror, did Gerry laugh.
Sorry I don't know.
NOt my specialty
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@ Stephen25000
Let us start with basics before getting complicated
What odor does Eddie the Cadaver dog alert to?
What odor does Keela the Blood dog alert to?
What does a single alert by either mean?
Why are the deployed together?
I await the the answer to my question first.
Now let's try you on a basic piece of simple science first.
Can you provide me with a list of compounds which these dogs can alert to ?
P.S. I hold degrees in Science, including one in Chemistry.
Here's a simple task for you.
Provide a pathway for the synthesis of Benzene from Carbon.
Please don't bother googling it, that won't impress me.
Do you know what !,5 Diaminopentane/Pentane-1,2-diammine is ?
There's a whole lot more to follow. 8((()*/
All this serves to show is that the issue of the cadaver dogs is well overrated and more of a hit and miss depending on any amount of variables prevailing on the day. No wonder the dog handler keeps a dignified silence.
well if I was Grime - I'd keep stumm - the money's in the bank after all
The gentleman is no idiot
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If a dog alerted to explosives on a plane I was about to board, and following a search I was told, "It's OK, we couldn't find any bomb, you can get on board now" .... would I get on it ?
Not a chance
Would you John ?
I have actually done precisely that, not in relation to an airplane but to a building. An office in which I worked was reported to have been a bomb target some years ago. The building was searched extensively, initially with dogs. One dog alerted in a particular section. The other dog (I believe it was an army dog) did not. The building was searched over a period of eighteen hours before we were told it was safe.
We then reported for work as usual the following morning.
What do you suggest should have happened? Should the building have been declared off limits or even demolished? Would you suggest the same happens to planes? When they are searched and the dog alert is shown to be false should the plane be put on the scrap heap?
Please do explain as that would appear to be the conclusion from your statement?
Not at all ... I'm just naturally a worrier and quite fearful of risk 8()-000(
-
If a dog alerted to explosives on a plane I was about to board, and following a search I was told, "It's OK, we couldn't find any bomb, you can get on board now" .... would I get on it ?
Not a chance
Would you John ?
I have actually done precisely that, not in relation to an airplane but to a building. An office in which I worked was reported to have been a bomb target some years ago. The building was searched extensively, initially with dogs. One dog alerted in a particular section. The other dog (I believe it was an army dog) did not. The building was searched over a period of eighteen hours before we were told it was safe.
We then reported for work as usual the following morning.
What do you suggest should have happened? Should the building have been declared off limits or even demolished? Would you suggest the same happens to planes? When they are searched and the dog alert is shown to be false should the plane be put on the scrap heap?
Please do explain as that would appear to be the conclusion from your statement?
Not at all ... I'm just naturally a worrier and quite fearful of risk 8()-000(
So your comment relates to your worrying nature and not to the normal reactions of people who do get on those planes once they have been searched and do enter buildings where bombs were alerted by dogs but nothing was found in a search.
The reality is that dogs do make alerts which searches and forensics never confirm.
-
He is currently reading this thread.
debunker, please forgive me if I've missed this, I'm struggling with the mountains of information currently being posted - has anyone put up the brief video of Gerry McCann laughing?
How is that related to dogs and DNA? Is this another attempt to disrupt the topic?
My guess would be, most definitely not. Just an attempt to gain more information.
Shona is a consistently excellent poster in these parts, and extremely funny with it!
-
He is currently reading this thread.
debunker, please forgive me if I've missed this, I'm struggling with the mountains of information currently being posted - has anyone put up the brief video of Gerry McCann laughing?
How is that related to dogs and DNA? Is this another attempt to disrupt the topic?
No, not at all. I haven't read on here for a couple of hours, so I'm a bit lost. No agenda, I promise! I'd just like to see that video again. And the one when the McCanns were being interviewed, and Gerry angrily tore his mic off, and Kate looked anxious and, if I'm honest, a bit frightened of her husband. Again, no agenda. Up to now, I've always presumed that Maddie was abducted, for ransom.
-
He is currently reading this thread.
debunker, please forgive me if I've missed this, I'm struggling with the mountains of information currently being posted - has anyone put up the brief video of Gerry McCann laughing?
How is that related to dogs and DNA? Is this another attempt to disrupt the topic?
No, not at all. I haven't read on here for a couple of hours, so I'm a bit lost. No agenda, I promise! I'd just like to see that video again. And the one when the McCanns were being interviewed, and Gerry angrily tore his mic off, and Kate looked anxious and, if I'm honest, a bit frightened of her husband. Again, no agenda. Up to now, I've always presumed that Maddie was abducted, for ransom.
Maybe that would make an interesting thread then?
-
The reality is that dogs do make alerts which searches and forensics never confirm.
that's it in a nutshell
doggies lust for that little treat they get when they alert
nowt wrong with that
but unless close inspection/scientific evaluation confirms they found something relevant
it's of no use
it's pretty simple really
-
He is currently reading this thread.
debunker, please forgive me if I've missed this, I'm struggling with the mountains of information currently being posted - has anyone put up the brief video of Gerry McCann laughing?
How is that related to dogs and DNA? Is this another attempt to disrupt the topic?
No, not at all. I haven't read on here for a couple of hours, so I'm a bit lost. No agenda, I promise! I'd just like to see that video again. And the one when the McCanns were being interviewed, and Gerry angrily tore his mic off, and Kate looked anxious and, if I'm honest, a bit frightened of her husband. Again, no agenda. Up to now, I've always presumed that Maddie was abducted, for ransom.
Maybe that would make an interesting thread then?
Possibly, but I obviously don't know enough to make a valuable contribution. Maybe the fact that the whole thing went massively global, so quickly, panicked whoever took Maddie and her poor body was taken out to sea in the little boat that sailed the night after?
-
The reality is that dogs do make alerts which searches and forensics never confirm.
that's it in a nutshell
doggies lust for that little treat they get when they alert
nowt wrong with that
but unless close inspection/scientific evaluation confirms they found something relevant
it's of no use
it's pretty simple really
[/quote]
It's significant, though, that the dog only 'looked for a little treat' by falsely alerting, in the McCann's apartment alone
Didn't lust after a little treat in any of the other apartments or cars
That's the problem I can't get round ( I mentioned it earlier in the thread but had no response )
Why only where the McCanns were concerned did the dog alert ... why wasn't he false alerting, or 'looking for treats' all over the place ?
-
He is currently reading this thread.
debunker, please forgive me if I've missed this, I'm struggling with the mountains of information currently being posted - has anyone put up the brief video of Gerry McCann laughing?
How is that related to dogs and DNA? Is this another attempt to disrupt the topic?
My guess would be, most definitely not. Just an attempt to gain more information.
Shona is a consistently excellent poster in these parts, and extremely funny with it!
Gosh, thanks, Sika!! At least with the WHF murders we have photographic evidence of Sheila's innocence. I'm lost with the McCann case. Almost too much information. But endlessly challenging.
-
He is currently reading this thread.
debunker, please forgive me if I've missed this, I'm struggling with the mountains of information currently being posted - has anyone put up the brief video of Gerry McCann laughing?
How is that related to dogs and DNA? Is this another attempt to disrupt the topic?
No, not at all. I haven't read on here for a couple of hours, so I'm a bit lost. No agenda, I promise! I'd just like to see that video again. And the one when the McCanns were being interviewed, and Gerry angrily tore his mic off, and Kate looked anxious and, if I'm honest, a bit frightened of her husband. Again, no agenda. Up to now, I've always presumed that Maddie was abducted, for ransom.
Maybe that would make an interesting thread then?
Possibly, but I obviously don't know enough to make a valuable contribution. Maybe the fact that the whole thing went massively global, so quickly, panicked whoever took Maddie and her poor body was taken out to sea in the little boat that sailed the night after?
Which little boat? I suspect there were hundreds of little boats setting sail every night from the various harbours and the beaches in the area.
Is there a specific boat? Again a question about such a boat might make a good thread. You don't need lots of information to post a question about something.
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If a dog alerted to explosives on a plane I was about to board, and following a search I was told, "It's OK, we couldn't find any bomb, you can get on board now" .... would I get on it ?
Not a chance
Would you John ?
Only if the dog handler and the dog came along too! @)(++(*
-
The reality is that dogs do make alerts which searches and forensics never confirm.
that's it in a nutshell
doggies lust for that little treat they get when they alert
nowt wrong with that
but unless close inspection/scientific evaluation confirms they found something relevant
it's of no use
it's pretty simple really
It's significant, though, that the dog only 'looked for a little treat' by falsely alerting, in the McCann's apartment alone
Didn't lust after a little treat in any of the other apartments or cars
That's the problem I can't get round ( I mentioned it earlier in the thread but had no response )
Why only where the McCanns were concerned did the dog alert ... why wasn't he false alerting, or 'looking for treats' all over the place ?
hmm maybe you saw a post that purported to show that the video of the dogs 'sniffing and a howling'
was sold to the Sun?
Without invoking Occam's razor but quoting a Rothchild - 'that the best time to buy is when there's blood in the streets'
think on
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Even from the very truncated and badly edited video we have seen its clear the dog handler spent far more time calling the dog back to the McCanns car than to the other cars. If they had spent as much time on the other cars who knows what they may have found?
-
He is currently reading this thread.
debunker, please forgive me if I've missed this, I'm struggling with the mountains of information currently being posted - has anyone put up the brief video of Gerry McCann laughing?
How is that related to dogs and DNA? Is this another attempt to disrupt the topic?
No, not at all. I haven't read on here for a couple of hours, so I'm a bit lost. No agenda, I promise! I'd just like to see that video again. And the one when the McCanns were being interviewed, and Gerry angrily tore his mic off, and Kate looked anxious and, if I'm honest, a bit frightened of her husband. Again, no agenda. Up to now, I've always presumed that Maddie was abducted, for ransom.
Maybe that would make an interesting thread then?
Possibly, but I obviously don't know enough to make a valuable contribution. Maybe the fact that the whole thing went massively global, so quickly, panicked whoever took Maddie and her poor body was taken out to sea in the little boat that sailed the night after?
Which little boat? I suspect there were hundreds of little boats setting sail every night from the various harbours and the beaches in the area.
Is there a specific boat? Again a question about such a boat might make a good thread. You don't need lots of information to post a question about something.
Well, that's good, because I haven't got a lot. Bearing in mind that I'm on here because of the WHF murders, and not the McCann case. But I recall at the time that a figure was seen carrying a small bundle into a boat that went out with the tide the night after Maddie disappeared. Personally, I think that was Maddie. And, sad to say, the tide took her body out.
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Eddie wasn't given much of a chance anywhere else. In and out and Bob's your uncle. None of that dragging back stuff he got when he was anywhere near McCann's places and things.
-
Even from the very truncated and badly edited video we have seen its clear the dog handler spent far more time calling the dog back to the McCanns car than to the other cars. If they had spent as much time on the other cars who knows what they may have found?
The full 20 minute video in the car park is worth watching - Mr Grime certainly calls Eddie backto the McCann's car six times more often than any other car.
THe alerts may have been serial errors- incorrect se base recgnised and alerted followd by reinforcement by the handler- watch the videos. Dogs smell the same scent around other McCann possessions and alert again.
-
The reality is that dogs do make alerts which searches and forensics never confirm.
It's significant, though, that the dog only 'looked for a little treat' by falsely alerting, in the McCann's apartment alone
Didn't lust after a little treat in any of the other apartments or cars
That's the problem I can't get round ( I mentioned it earlier in the thread but had no response )
Why only where the McCanns were concerned did the dog alert ... why wasn't he false alerting, or 'looking for treats' all over the place ?
Eddie wasn't given much of a chance anywhere else. In and out and Bob's your uncle. None of that dragging back stuff he got when he was anywhere near McCann's places and things.
How can you possibly know where, and how, the dog was deployed ... let alone the manner in which his deployment was handled ?
Is it in the police files ?
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Eddie wasn't given much of a chance anywhere else. In and out and Bob's your uncle. None of that dragging back stuff he got when he was anywhere near McCann's places and things.
How can you possibly know where, and how, the dog was deployed ... let alone the manner in which his deployment was handled ?
Is it in the police files ?
THere is a list online and videos on youtube and elsewhere.
-
Even from the very truncated and badly edited video we have seen its clear the dog handler spent far more time calling the dog back to the McCanns car than to the other cars. If they had spent as much time on the other cars who knows what they may have found?
The full 20 minute video in the car park is worth watching - Mr Grime certainly calls Eddie backto the McCann's car six times more often than any other car.
THe alerts may have been serial errors- incorrect se base recgnised and alerted followd by reinforcement by the handler- watch the videos. Dogs smell the same scent around other McCann possessions and alert again.
genuine question - not leading at all
in the Levy Duarte video - were only Mccann clothes laid out on the floor?
or also other folk's clothes?
I believe that's what they call a blind test?
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Eddie wasn't given much of a chance anywhere else. In and out and Bob's your uncle. None of that dragging back stuff he got when he was anywhere near McCann's places and things.
How can you possibly know where, and how, the dog was deployed ... let alone the manner in which his deployment was handled ?
Is it in the police files ?
Simply watching the video of the dog being handled around the cars is clear evidence that the McCanns car was given more time than the others.
-
I believe that's how scientific research is carried out
shame we don't have the resident Academic 'Stephen' to answer that little morsel
-
Eddie wasn't given much of a chance anywhere else. In and out and Bob's your uncle. None of that dragging back stuff he got when he was anywhere near McCann's places and things.
How can you possibly know where, and how, the dog was deployed ... let alone the manner in which his deployment was handled ?
Is it in the police files ?
THere is a list online and videos on youtube and elsewhere.
I must ask for a link please
I would be astounded if there is any footage of the dogs in the apartments of anyone other than the McCanns
I will revisit , and bump this post, until links are provided or the claim is revised
-
Even from the very truncated and badly edited video we have seen its clear the dog handler spent far more time calling the dog back to the McCanns car than to the other cars. If they had spent as much time on the other cars who knows what they may have found?
The full 20 minute video in the car park is worth watching - Mr Grime certainly calls Eddie backto the McCann's car six times more often than any other car.
THe alerts may have been serial errors- incorrect se base recgnised and alerted followd by reinforcement by the handler- watch the videos. Dogs smell the same scent around other McCann possessions and alert again.
genuine question - not leading at all
in the Levy Duarte video - were only Mccann clothes laid out on the floor?
or also other folk's clothes?
I believe that's what they call a blind test?
any views?
-
Even from the very truncated and badly edited video we have seen its clear the dog handler spent far more time calling the dog back to the McCanns car than to the other cars. If they had spent as much time on the other cars who knows what they may have found?
The full 20 minute video in the car park is worth watching - Mr Grime certainly calls Eddie backto the McCann's car six times more often than any other car.
THe alerts may have been serial errors- incorrect se base recgnised and alerted followd by reinforcement by the handler- watch the videos. Dogs smell the same scent around other McCann possessions and alert again.
genuine question - not leading at all
in the Levy Duarte video - were only Mccann clothes laid out on the floor?
or also other folk's clothes?
I believe that's what they call a blind test?
I believe that's how scientific research is carried out
shame we don't have the resident Academic 'Stephen' to answer that little morsel
-
Even from the very truncated and badly edited video we have seen its clear the dog handler spent far more time calling the dog back to the McCanns car than to the other cars. If they had spent as much time on the other cars who knows what they may have found?
The full 20 minute video in the car park is worth watching - Mr Grime certainly calls Eddie backto the McCann's car six times more often than any other car.
THe alerts may have been serial errors- incorrect se base recgnised and alerted followd by reinforcement by the handler- watch the videos. Dogs smell the same scent around other McCann possessions and alert again.
I agree, dogs aren't stupid and if they are recalled several times they can learn that a reaction is required and bobs your uncle.
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One thing that is often unknown about the dog alerts is that there was a real desperation to get the work completed in a specific time scale. The dogs were still working at 4am on at least one morning, having worked most of the previous day.
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One thing that is often unknown about the dog alerts is that there was a real desperation to get the work completed in a specific time scale. The dogs were still working at 4am on at least one morning, having worked most of the previous day.
true
remind me please - the dogs were deployed in Luz in August/September - were they not?
Massive climate change from Yorkshire - that and the different smells of flora/fauna around them
-
Even from the very truncated and badly edited video we have seen its clear the dog handler spent far more time calling the dog back to the McCanns car than to the other cars. If they had spent as much time on the other cars who knows what they may have found?
The full 20 minute video in the car park is worth watching - Mr Grime certainly calls Eddie backto the McCann's car six times more often than any other car.
THe alerts may have been serial errors- incorrect se base recgnised and alerted followd by reinforcement by the handler- watch the videos. Dogs smell the same scent around other McCann possessions and alert again.
I agree, dogs aren't stupid and if they are recalled several times they can learn that a reaction is required and bobs your uncle.
I have great difficulty with the suggestion that the dogs can be 'guided' by their handlers to alert falsely in order to please ( or get a treat )
Take Mr Grimes, as the case in point ... it matters not a jot to him if his dogs alert or not, indeed, them not alerting can be seen as a successful outcome providing the 'non alert' was accurate
It is the accuracy of the dogs that matters to the handler, whether they alert or not ... their, and his, reputation and livelihood depend on it
It is very unfair and utterly insupportable to suggest that Mr Grimes, for some inexplicable reason, 'caused' his dogs to falsely alert in the McCann case
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One thing that is often unknown about the dog alerts is that there was a real desperation to get the work completed in a specific time scale. The dogs were still working at 4am on at least one morning, having worked most of the previous day.
Good point gilet and that combined with the strange environment with all its foreign scents could only but confuse the poor little muts. Not to mention the extreme heat and the humidity at night.
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Even from the very truncated and badly edited video we have seen its clear the dog handler spent far more time calling the dog back to the McCanns car than to the other cars. If they had spent as much time on the other cars who knows what they may have found?
The full 20 minute video in the car park is worth watching - Mr Grime certainly calls Eddie backto the McCann's car six times more often than any other car.
THe alerts may have been serial errors- incorrect se base recgnised and alerted followd by reinforcement by the handler- watch the videos. Dogs smell the same scent around other McCann possessions and alert again.
I agree, dogs aren't stupid and if they are recalled several times they can learn that a reaction is required and bobs your uncle.
I have great difficulty with the suggestion that the dogs can be 'guided' by their handlers to alert falsely in order to please ( or get a treat )
Take Mr Grimes, as the case in point ... it matters not a jot to him if his dogs alert or not, indeed, them not alerting can be seen as a successful outcome providing the 'non alert' was accurate
It is the accuracy of the dogs that matters to the handler, whether they alert or not ... their, and his, reputation and livelihood depend on it
It is very unfair and utterly insupportable to suggest that Mr Grimes, for some inexplicable reason, 'caused' his dogs to falsely alert in the McCann case
When will you comprehend that you are clutching at straws?
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Mr. Grime used the video made in Portugal, as an advertising tool. He used it to convince Lenny Harper in Jersey that he should employ the dogs.
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Mr. Grime used the video made in Portugal, as an advertising tool. He used it to convince Lenny Harper in Jersey that he should employ the dogs.
Are you suggesting Mr Grime is a chancer who steered his dogs into making false alerts in the McCann case so he could raise his profile ?
That is a serious accusation ... what do you base it on ?
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Mr. Grime used the video made in Portugal, as an advertising tool. He used it to convince Lenny Harper in Jersey that he should employ the dogs.
Are you suggesting Mr Grime is a chancer who steered his dogs into making false alerts in the McCann case so he could raise his profile ?
That is a serious accusation ... what do you base it on ?
Did I say that? I don't think so.
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Mr. Grime used the video made in Portugal, as an advertising tool. He used it to convince Lenny Harper in Jersey that he should employ the dogs.
Are you suggesting Mr Grime is a chancer who steered his dogs into making false alerts in the McCann case so he could raise his profile ?
That is a serious accusation ... what do you base it on ?
I would base it on logic
getting paid shedloads for a grainy video made in Luz/Portugal - which resulted in no scientific findings
to be paid shedloads to go to Jersey to find a piece of coconut shell - as confirmed by Kew Gardens
Genius
give that man a cigar
Bungled Jersey child abuse probe branded a '£20million shambles' (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1217863/Bungled-Jersey-child-abuse-probe-branded-20million-shambles.html)
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Mr. Grime used the video made in Portugal, as an advertising tool. He used it to convince Lenny Harper in Jersey that he should employ the dogs.
Are you suggesting Mr Grime is a chancer who steered his dogs into making false alerts in the McCann case so he could raise his profile ?
That is a serious accusation ... what do you base it on ?
I would base it on logic
getting paid shedloads for a grainy video made in Luz/Portugal - which resulted in no scientific findings
to be paid shedloads to go to Jersey to find a piece of coconut shell - as confirmed by Kew Gardens
Genius
give that man a cigar
I don't think that is a rational conclusion to come to
... straw clutching at it's most desperate, if I may say
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Mr. Grime used the video made in Portugal, as an advertising tool. He used it to convince Lenny Harper in Jersey that he should employ the dogs.
Are you suggesting Mr Grime is a chancer who steered his dogs into making false alerts in the McCann case so he could raise his profile ?
That is a serious accusation ... what do you base it on ?
I would base it on logic
getting paid shedloads for a grainy video made in Luz/Portugal - which resulted in no scientific findings
to be paid shedloads to go to Jersey to find a piece of coconut shell - as confirmed by Kew Gardens
Genius
give that man a cigar
I don't think that is a rational conclusion to come to
... straw clutching at it's most desperate, if I may say
Nope not desperate - just factual
what have Grime's dogs discovered in Luz and Jersey that's admissable as evidence in a Portuguese or Jersey court of law
What?
answer that please
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I just had a look at the Martin Grimes website and am somewhat bemused at the claim that the dogs scented death in the farmhouse AFTER Adrian Prout confessed to strangling his wife there.
Question is...why didn't the cadaver dogs scent it 3 years earlier when it was fresh?
Lets face it the dogs were pretty useless in that case, the body would never have been found if Adrian hadn't shown police where he buried it.
http://eddieandkeela.blogspot.co.uk/2011/03/cadaver-dog-sniffed-death-in-prout-home.html
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Video - Spaniels Eddie and Keela in Apartment 5a, Clothing and Hire Car tests.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Jw4Uhoik6qI#!
Just looking at that video, one has to wonder how many other professionals were in that apartment with their bag of tricks, chemicals and fingerprint dust before the dogs arrived? No wonder the dog results were effectively useless.
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Apparently they did scent something in the farm house. Just one problem. Mrs. Prout wasn't killed in the farmhouse. She was killed and buried some distance from the house. In an area that was searched by the dogs, who found nothing.
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There has only ever been one Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog and that was Eddie. This title was bestowed on Eddie by Martin Grime himself after Eddie supposedly did a course in detecting Cadaver Scent.
I have never been able to understand this Enhancement as Eddie was originally trained to scent Dried Blood which he certainly didn't unlearn in the process.
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Mr. Grime used the video made in Portugal, as an advertising tool. He used it to convince Lenny Harper in Jersey that he should employ the dogs.
Are you suggesting Mr Grime is a chancer who steered his dogs into making false alerts in the McCann case so he could raise his profile ?
That is a serious accusation ... what do you base it on ?
I would base it on logic
getting paid shedloads for a grainy video made in Luz/Portugal - which resulted in no scientific findings
to be paid shedloads to go to Jersey to find a piece of coconut shell - as confirmed by Kew Gardens
Genius
give that man a cigar
Bungled Jersey child abuse probe branded a '£20million shambles' (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1217863/Bungled-Jersey-child-abuse-probe-branded-20million-shambles.html)
Indeed and he was paid £93,000 for the privilege. Some coconut shell! @)(++(*
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Even from the very truncated and badly edited video we have seen its clear the dog handler spent far more time calling the dog back to the McCanns car than to the other cars. If they had spent as much time on the other cars who knows what they may have found?
The full 20 minute video in the car park is worth watching - Mr Grime certainly calls Eddie backto the McCann's car six times more often than any other car.
THe alerts may have been serial errors- incorrect se base recgnised and alerted followd by reinforcement by the handler- watch the videos. Dogs smell the same scent around other McCann possessions and alert again.
I agree, dogs aren't stupid and if they are recalled several times they can learn that a reaction is required and bobs your uncle.
I have great difficulty with the suggestion that the dogs can be 'guided' by their handlers to alert falsely in order to please ( or get a treat )
Take Mr Grimes, as the case in point ... it matters not a jot to him if his dogs alert or not, indeed, them not alerting can be seen as a successful outcome providing the 'non alert' was accurate
It is the accuracy of the dogs that matters to the handler, whether they alert or not ... their, and his, reputation and livelihood depend on it
It is very unfair and utterly insupportable to suggest that Mr Grimes, for some inexplicable reason, 'caused' his dogs to falsely alert in the McCann case
I really have to ask the question. Do you actually understand the adjective "insupportable"? If you do I think it rather odd that you make the statement that a claim about the dogs being guided in the car alerting is insupportable because the claim is totally supported by the video of the event where the extra time devoted to the clearly identifiable McCann car is so obvious.
Mr Grime at the time of the visit to PDL (31 July -8 August 2007) was retiring from the police force and starting up his own company. There is a saying that all publicity is good publicity and from his dogs intervention in PDL he certainly has had a great deal of publicity.
With regard to the timings of the canine searches, most were done in the evening or overnight but the dogs on some occasions were working from 3pm to 5am and for other extended periods. I suppose the aim was to work when it was coolest but surely such strange hours to the dogs would be very unsettling to their normal work patterns?
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Best I can do for the moment. From The Gloucestershire Echo.
Officers are considering a claim he strangled her after a row in a shooting lodge, and then buried her on their 276 acre farm.
Read more: http://www.thisisgloucestershire.co.uk/Kate-Prout-murder-Ex-husband-admits-killing/story-13876025-detail/story.html#ixzz2PSIDt2dG
Follow us: @thisisglos on Twitter | thisisgloucestershire on Facebook
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I stand corrected Eleanor, it does seem that he strangled her in the shooting lodge on the farm.
At the inquest into the former teacher's death, Detective Inspector Steve Bean, of Gloucestershire CID said on November 5, 2007, Prout went out to the lodge at Redhill Farm to prepare for the following day's shoot.
"She followed him and they began arguing," Mr Bean said.
"She was planning to humiliate him in some way the following day. He snapped, and thrust his right hand into her neck and squeezed for 10 to 15 seconds. She didn't struggle. She fell backwards."
He told Assistant Deputy Coroner Katie Skerrett that Prout fixed himself a glass of whisky, before wrapping Kate's body in a curtain, putting it in the back of his Land Rover and went to the pub. When he returned, he drove to a pheasant pen and dug a hole with a shovel and buried her body.
http://www.thisisgloucestershire.co.uk/Kate-Prout-inquest-finally-hears-husband/story-16000525-detail/story.html#axzz2PSeEKbqV
There is no reference to the body ever being in the house.
This really does render dog-handler expert Mr Grimes claim that one of his dogs indicated that a body had been in the living room of the family home all the more bizarre? 8-)(--)
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We really need to be aware that no anti is willing to enter into discussion about the dogs.
WHY
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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3078300/
http://www.animallaw.info/articles/arusensminger_papet2011.htm
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I stand corrected Eleanor, it does seem that he strangled her in the shooting lodge on the farm.
At the inquest into the former teacher's death, Detective Inspector Steve Bean, of Gloucestershire CID said on November 5, 2007, Prout went out to the lodge at Redhill Farm to prepare for the following day's shoot.
"She followed him and they began arguing," Mr Bean said.
"She was planning to humiliate him in some way the following day. He snapped, and thrust his right hand into her neck and squeezed for 10 to 15 seconds. She didn't struggle. She fell backwards."
He told Assistant Deputy Coroner Katie Skerrett that Prout fixed himself a glass of whisky, before wrapping Kate's body in a curtain, putting it in the back of his Land Rover and went to the pub. When he returned, he drove to a pheasant pen and dug a hole with a shovel and buried her body.
http://www.thisisgloucestershire.co.uk/Kate-Prout-inquest-finally-hears-husband/story-16000525-detail/story.html#axzz2PSeEKbqV
There is no reference to the body ever being in the house.
This really does render dog-handler expert Mr Grimes claim that one of his dogs indicated that a body had been in the living room of the family home all the more bizarre? 8-)(--)
Sorry. I don't particularly like proving people wrong. And thanks for the additional article.
Unfortunately I now know more about Cadaver Dogs than I ever wanted to.
I also know far too much about how to make chloroform, which is, I suspect, how the abductor sedated the three children.
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I stand corrected Eleanor, it does seem that he strangled her in the shooting lodge on the farm.
At the inquest into the former teacher's death, Detective Inspector Steve Bean, of Gloucestershire CID said on November 5, 2007, Prout went out to the lodge at Redhill Farm to prepare for the following day's shoot.
"She followed him and they began arguing," Mr Bean said.
"She was planning to humiliate him in some way the following day. He snapped, and thrust his right hand into her neck and squeezed for 10 to 15 seconds. She didn't struggle. She fell backwards."
He told Assistant Deputy Coroner Katie Skerrett that Prout fixed himself a glass of whisky, before wrapping Kate's body in a curtain, putting it in the back of his Land Rover and went to the pub. When he returned, he drove to a pheasant pen and dug a hole with a shovel and buried her body.
http://www.thisisgloucestershire.co.uk/Kate-Prout-inquest-finally-hears-husband/story-16000525-detail/story.html#axzz2PSeEKbqV
There is no reference to the body ever being in the house.
This really does render dog-handler expert Mr Grimes claim that one of his dogs indicated that a body had been in the living room of the family home all the more bizarre? 8-)(--)
Sorry. I don't particularly like proving people wrong. And thanks for the additional article.
Unfortunately I now know more about Cadaver Dogs than I ever wanted to.
I also know far too much about how to make chloroform, which is, I suspect, how the abductor sedated the three children.
Would it have been possible to detect if chloroform had been administered?
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I stand corrected Eleanor, it does seem that he strangled her in the shooting lodge on the farm.
At the inquest into the former teacher's death, Detective Inspector Steve Bean, of Gloucestershire CID said on November 5, 2007, Prout went out to the lodge at Redhill Farm to prepare for the following day's shoot.
"She followed him and they began arguing," Mr Bean said.
"She was planning to humiliate him in some way the following day. He snapped, and thrust his right hand into her neck and squeezed for 10 to 15 seconds. She didn't struggle. She fell backwards."
He told Assistant Deputy Coroner Katie Skerrett that Prout fixed himself a glass of whisky, before wrapping Kate's body in a curtain, putting it in the back of his Land Rover and went to the pub. When he returned, he drove to a pheasant pen and dug a hole with a shovel and buried her body.
http://www.thisisgloucestershire.co.uk/Kate-Prout-inquest-finally-hears-husband/story-16000525-detail/story.html#axzz2PSeEKbqV
There is no reference to the body ever being in the house.
This really does render dog-handler expert Mr Grimes claim that one of his dogs indicated that a body had been in the living room of the family home all the more bizarre? 8-)(--)
Sorry. I don't particularly like proving people wrong. And thanks for the additional article.
Unfortunately I now know more about Cadaver Dogs than I ever wanted to.
I also know far too much about how to make chloroform, which is, I suspect, how the abductor sedated the three children.
Would it have been possible to detect if chloroform had been administered?
It doesn't smell if made properly. If it smells you haven't made it right. And it doesn't linger in the body. And then, of course, the bedroom window had been opened.
A pad soaked in chloroform in a plastic bag in your pocket would do the trick.
It is very easy to make.
Beware when Googling. If I ever get arrested for a crime I could be in serious trouble with my Google history.
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Why would any would be abductor even need to use chloroform?
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Why would any would be abductor even need to use chloroform?
Because they wouldn't want the child or children to wake up and start hollering. A kicking and screaming Madeleine being carried through the streets would not have been a good idea.
The twins crying could have attracted attention.
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I must admit I thought these dogs were infallible and the bees knees but that doesnt appear to be the case. >@@(*&) There are so many myths around it is difficult to know where to begin sometimes and you would think i would have known better having studied the Jeremy Bamber case. Silly me. 8(8-))
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I stand corrected Eleanor, it does seem that he strangled her in the shooting lodge on the farm.
At the inquest into the former teacher's death, Detective Inspector Steve Bean, of Gloucestershire CID said on November 5, 2007, Prout went out to the lodge at Redhill Farm to prepare for the following day's shoot.
"She followed him and they began arguing," Mr Bean said.
"She was planning to humiliate him in some way the following day. He snapped, and thrust his right hand into her neck and squeezed for 10 to 15 seconds. She didn't struggle. She fell backwards."
He told Assistant Deputy Coroner Katie Skerrett that Prout fixed himself a glass of whisky, before wrapping Kate's body in a curtain, putting it in the back of his Land Rover and went to the pub. When he returned, he drove to a pheasant pen and dug a hole with a shovel and buried her body.
http://www.thisisgloucestershire.co.uk/Kate-Prout-inquest-finally-hears-husband/story-16000525-detail/story.html#axzz2PSeEKbqV
There is no reference to the body ever being in the house.
This really does render dog-handler expert Mr Grimes claim that one of his dogs indicated that a body had been in the living room of the family home all the more bizarre? 8-)(--)
Sorry. I don't particularly like proving people wrong. And thanks for the additional article.
Unfortunately I now know more about Cadaver Dogs than I ever wanted to.
I also know far too much about how to make chloroform, which is, I suspect, how the abductor sedated the three children.
Would it have been possible to detect if chloroform had been administered?
It doesn't smell if made properly. If it smells you haven't made it right. And it doesn't linger in the body. And then, of course, the bedroom window had been opened.
A pad soaked in chloroform in a plastic bag in your pocket would do the trick.
It is very easy to make.
Beware when Googling. If I ever get arrested for a crime I could be in serious trouble with my Google history.
So please explain precisely, how you would make Chloroform 'easily' ?
It is banned in most countries due to it's carcinogenic properties.
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I must admit I thought these dogs were infallible and the bees knees but that doesnt appear to be the case. >@@(*&) There are so many myths around it is difficult to know where to begin sometimes and you would think i would have known better having studied the Jeremy Bamber case. Silly me. 8(8-))
A lot of us got taken in at the start, and there were so many fibs being told. The research by some has been phenomenal, but we have had six years to get to what we now know.
This is the problem with The Dog Supporters. They don't actually do any research, probably because it suits them to spread the lies.
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Google "How to make Chloroform", that's what I did. It is made with easily purchased components, so impossible to ban, I would say.
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Google "How to make Chloroform", that's what I did. It is made with easily purchased components, so impossible to ban, I would say.
I'm aware of the normal preparation on an industrial scale.
Making it at home is extremely dangerous to put it mildly and liable to result in poisoning and/or death.
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http://item.mobileweb.ebay.co.uk/viewitem?itemId=171000015878&kw=171000015878
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I must admit I thought these dogs were infallible and the bees knees but that doesnt appear to be the case. >@@(*&) There are so many myths around it is difficult to know where to begin sometimes and you would think i would have known better having studied the Jeremy Bamber case. Silly me. 8(8-))
A lot of us got taken in at the start, and there were so many fibs being told. The research by some has been phenomenal, but we have had six years to get to what we now know.
This is the problem with The Dog Supporters. They don't actually do any research, probably because it suits them to spread the lies.
Dogs like any other animal and I include the human being in this are not infallible by any means. That is why the dog handler is non committal on the findings and simply refers everyone to the forensics for corroboration.
I guarantee if the dog handlers were asked to stake their life on their findings you would get a completely different answer. 8(0(*
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http://askville.amazon.com/chloroform-illegal-kind-store-sell/AnswerViewer.do?requestId=5946566
The dangers of Chloroform are to put it mildly extreme, especially for someone not familiar with the compound.
If used by a 'novice', it could have killed Madeleine.
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http://askville.amazon.com/chloroform-illegal-kind-store-sell/AnswerViewer.do?requestId=5946566
The dangers of Chlorophyll are to put it mildly extreme, especially for someone not familiar with the compound.
If used by a 'novice', it could have killed Madeleine.
Chlorophyll? Who said anything about Chlorophyll? Chloroform isn't dangerous if the rules are followed.
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http://askville.amazon.com/chloroform-illegal-kind-store-sell/AnswerViewer.do?requestId=5946566
The dangers of Chlorophyll are to put it mildly extreme, especially for someone not familiar with the compound.
If used by a 'novice', it could have killed Madeleine.
Chlorophyll? Who said anything about Chlorophyll? Chloroform isn't dangerous if the rules are followed.
Amended.
What rules ?
Tell me Eleanor, how long does Chloroform linger :
In a body or elsewhere.
ms. mccann suspected her children were sedated. Neither she or the PJ had them tested at the time.
That was wrong on both parts.
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I must admit I thought these dogs were infallible and the bees knees but that doesnt appear to be the case. >@@(*&) There are so many myths around it is difficult to know where to begin sometimes and you would think i would have known better having studied the Jeremy Bamber case. Silly me. 8(8-))
A lot of us got taken in at the start, and there were so many fibs being told. The research by some has been phenomenal, but we have had six years to get to what we now know.
This is the problem with The Dog Supporters. They don't actually do any research, probably because it suits them to spread the lies.
The dog supporters - some of whom are surely intelligent WANT to believe that Eddie and Keela solved the case
That's their belief system - that's what sustains them
I don't want to go all Freudian on you - but it's anthropomorphic- subscribing human traits like reasoning and logic to animals
Bit like Skippy the kangaroo - eeping about a bit - and telling Joey's dad that Joey's fallen down the well.
Sorry if this sounds flippant
ANY barks and tail wagging by dogs - not backed up by scientific study....
IS useless
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http://askville.amazon.com/chloroform-illegal-kind-store-sell/AnswerViewer.do?requestId=5946566
The dangers of Chlorophyll are to put it mildly extreme, especially for someone not familiar with the compound.
If used by a 'novice', it could have killed Madeleine.
Chlorophyll? Who said anything about Chlorophyll? Chloroform isn't dangerous if the rules are followed.
Amended.
What rules ?
Tell me Eleanor, how long does Chloroform linger :
In a body or elsewhere.
ms. mccann suspected her children were sedated. Neither she or the PJ had them tested at the time.
That was wrong on both parts.
I have already answered those questions.
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Google "How to make Chloroform", that's what I did. It is made with easily purchased components, so impossible to ban, I would say.
I'm aware of the normal preparation on an industrial scale.
Making it at home is extremely dangerous to put it mildly and liable to result in poisoning and/or death.
Does not seem to dangerous:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3T0FTo0QzhM
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I have got all of those things in my house. For other purpose, of course.
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Poor Eddie & Keela finished their career of being 100% accurate with this case. Good for Mr Grimes that he went to the States since there it seems that cadaver dogs signaling is relevant: http://northridge.patch.com/articles/former-csun-recruiter-convicted-of-killing-actress-sister (http://northridge.patch.com/articles/former-csun-recruiter-convicted-of-killing-actress-sister)
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Chloroform tests done on Madeleine's bed proved negative.
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Chloroform tests done on Madeleine's bed proved negative.
Link, please. Although Chloroform dissipates very quickly. Try Google. And do stop lying. You aren't on Twitter now.
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Chloroform tests done on Madeleine's bed proved negative.
Link, please. Although Chloroform dissipates very quickly. Try Google. And do stop lying. You aren't on Twitter now.
I am not lyng, if you accuse anyone of lying you have to say why, and I am not, or ever have been, on Twitter. Paranoid as well as abusive? Oh dear. What a combination. There you go, I did your donkey work for you.
8((()*/
ETA Ignore list now fixed, thanks Admin for the help
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/5A_FORENSIC_4_5_7.htm
The area of the pillow of the bed from the minor disappeared was inspected with the intention to detect the presence of some smell [aroma] characteristic of volatile substances typical of chloroform or ether, this search proving negative
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Poor Eddie & Keela finished their career of being 100% accurate with this case. Good for Mr Grimes that he went to the States since there it seems that cadaver dogs signaling is relevant: http://northridge.patch.com/articles/former-csun-recruiter-convicted-of-killing-actress-sister (http://northridge.patch.com/articles/former-csun-recruiter-convicted-of-killing-actress-sister)
Where do you get the (mis)information that they are 100% accurate.
You are reluctant to cite.
But cite please as not even Mr Grime claims that.
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Chloroform tests done on Madeleine's bed proved negative.
Link, please. Although Chloroform dissipates very quickly. Try Google. And do stop lying. You aren't on Twitter now.
I am not lyng, if you accuse anyone of lying you have to say why, and I am not, or ever have been, on Twitter. Paranoid as well as abusive? Oh dear. What a combination. There you go, I did your donkey work for you.
8((()*/
ETA Ignore list now fixed, thanks Admin for the help
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/5A_FORENSIC_4_5_7.htm
The area of the pillow of the bed from the minor disappeared was inspected with the intention to detect the presence of some smell [aroma] characteristic of volatile substances typical of chloroform or ether, this search proving negative
.
That was why the window was opened. And it certainly wasn't tested that night. Nite, nite. Or tara if you prefer
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Chloroform has a strong, dangerous and very short effect (some minutes). Besides it is extremely volatile and you risk to dizzy yourself trying to chloroform someone.
The chilly night would have woken up a child in pyjamas unless she was under heavy sedation. But it's not easy to sedate someone. You need specific material.
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Why would anyone want to sedate the twins? If they were in and out in two seconds, not as if anyone would hear them is it? As if they would woke up in the first place by someone sneaking in and out on a few seconds
And if the twins were thought to be sedated why did the Mccanns never take them to hospital
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There was no need to sedate the twins. No time too. An abductor would have to 1) apply ether or something equivalent to make sure the victim will not scream and 2) apply a proper sedation. Complex task.
Sedating would have been far easier if done by the mother : Théralène, Rivotril... in a glass of milk or orange juice, deep sedation and no risk. But how would the abductor have known that and taken advantage of it ?
If the abductor is the sedator, it's rather corny. He would have to use some kind of oxygen bottle with azote protoxyd, kalinox or entonox (very much used in paediatrics).
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There was no need to sedate the twins. No time too. An abductor would have to 1) apply ether or something equivalent to make sure the victim will not scream and 2) apply a proper sedation. Complex task.
Sedating would have been far easier if done by the mother : Théralène, Rivotril... in a glass of milk or orange juice, deep sedation and no risk. But how would the abductor have known that and taken advantage of it ?
If the abductor is the sedator, it's rather corny. He would have to use some kind of oxygen bottle with azote protoxyd, kalinox or entonox (very much used in paediatrics).
fascinating
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There was no need to sedate the twins. No time too. An abductor would have to 1) apply ether or something equivalent to make sure the victim will not scream and 2) apply a proper sedation. Complex task.
Sedating would have been far easier if done by the mother : Théralène, Rivotril... in a glass of milk or orange juice, deep sedation and no risk. But how would the abductor have known that and taken advantage of it ?
If the abductor is the sedator, it's rather corny. He would have to use some kind of oxygen bottle with azote protoxyd, kalinox or entonox (very much used in paediatrics).
It is ridicilous, as ridiculous as kate mccann saying that madeleine was sedated while under the care of her creche workers during the day of thursday
@)(++(*
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There was no need to sedate the twins. No time too. An abductor would have to 1) apply ether or something equivalent to make sure the victim will not scream and 2) apply a proper sedation. Complex task.
Sedating would have been far easier if done by the mother : Théralène, Rivotril... in a glass of milk or orange juice, deep sedation and no risk. But how would the abductor have known that and taken advantage of it ?
If the abductor is the sedator, it's rather corny. He would have to use some kind of oxygen bottle with azote protoxyd, kalinox or entonox (very much used in paediatrics).
It is ridicilous, as ridiculous as kate mccann saying that madeleine was sedated while under the care of her creche workers during the day of thursday
@)(++(*
Where did she say that they had been? If your child was missing, wouldn't you try to think of every possibility? Even if you discard them?
I don't see what's so amusing.
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Neither do I.
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I'm glad not to be alone to think so.
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Carana Kate Mccann in her book has said she is convinced her twins were sedated, my laughing icon was about her suggesting creche staff sedated Madeleine or sedated while under their watch and care, perhaps it should have been a disgusted smiley for her finding another person to blame, but i cant find one
it is a fact that in her book Kate Mccann is scathing about so many people, most of them innocent people, and is un grateful as well to many people who helped, for her to complain that people werent organised enough when she never put a foot outdoors to search for her child is pathetic at best, at best
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The trouble is mixing judgements with facts. If we don't stick to facts, there's no hope of any kind of achievement. We're losing our time ! Sad !
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maybe you are too used to forums that like laughing smilies to persecute parents and mock their situation.
(it is a statement - not a question)
....moderated....
very disappointed with your reply. I have known you for so long and you mix up the lamp post thread with this one.
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A long night ?
I thought posters wanted to reflect, I reckon they prefer provoking. I better quit.
Farewell !
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Carana Kate Mccann in her book has said she is convinced her twins were sedated, my laughing icon was about her suggesting creche staff sedated Madeleine or sedated while under their watch and care, perhaps it should have been a disgusted smiley for her finding another person to blame, but i cant find one
it is a fact that in her book Kate Mccann is scathing about so many people, most of them innocent people, and is un grateful as well to many people who helped, for her to complain that people werent organised enough when she never put a foot outdoors to search for her child is pathetic at best, at best
How do you know that?
As the parents of a missing child, they had to present for the police that night, don't forget.
FRIDAY, MAY 4: No sleep, Gerry and I started looking through the streets around 06.00 as it was starting to get light. Nobody around. Why not? Desperate.
http://madeleinemythsexposed.pbworks.com/w/page/39077768/Rebuttal%20of%20%22Fact%22%2018
This would seem to be corroborated by a police officer found them out at 7am
He remembers that he saw the McCann couple at about 07.00 alone in the street next to the site where they were stationed.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAULO-NETO.htm
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Yes carana we know kate mccann said she searched for an hour the next morning when light came, as she said for at least one hour
its no good saying she didnt search because she had to be there with police when she herself said police left them alone and went that night
kate continually said it was so dark she waited forthe light to go out, well even in the dark she could have gone out calling, you know like dozens of locals did but she just sat indoors and prayed, very constructive
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Yes carana we know kate mccann said she searched for an hour the next morning when light came, as she said for at least one hour
its no good saying she didnt search because she had to be there with police when she herself said police left them alone and went that night
kate continually said it was so dark she waited forthe light to go out, well even in the dark she could have gone out calling, you know like dozens of locals did but she just sat indoors and prayed, very constructive
that is your opinion
No-one has to listen to your opinion - I hoped after so many years of you posting the same thing you would have realised that.
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The trouble is mixing judgements with facts. If we don't stick to facts, there's no hope of any kind of achievement. We're losing our time ! Sad !
There's a little girl who is missing.
I agree with you about sticking to facts.
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I will not even try to remind you of the advice from experts that you and people like you have been referred to so many many times.
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Yes carana we know kate mccann said she searched for an hour the next morning when light came, as she said for at least one hour
its no good saying she didnt search because she had to be there with police when she herself said police left them alone and went that night
kate continually said it was so dark she waited forthe light to go out, well even in the dark she could have gone out calling, you know like dozens of locals did but she just sat indoors and prayed, very constructive
that is your opinion
No-one has to listen to your opinion - I hoped after so many years of you posting the same thing you would have realised that.
of course so put plugs in your ears then, problem sorted, btw i have not been saying this for years, it was a comment and observation of tonight
8((()*/
dont you get tired of stalking?and attacking people for their views and opinions? bet you have ulcers and a swastika ;)
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Yes carana we know kate mccann said she searched for an hour the next morning when light came, as she said for at least one hour
its no good saying she didnt search because she had to be there with police when she herself said police left them alone and went that night
kate continually said it was so dark she waited forthe light to go out, well even in the dark she could have gone out calling, you know like dozens of locals did but she just sat indoors and prayed, very constructive
that is your opinion
No-one has to listen to your opinion - I hoped after so many years of you posting the same thing you would have realised that.
of course so put plugs in your ears then, problem sorted, btw i have not been saying this for years, it was a comment and observation of tonight
8((()*/
dont you get tired of stalking?and attacking people for their views and opinions? bet you have ulcers and a swastika ;)
no I never have, and never will get tired of pointing out to people that you have been a Mccann [ censored word ] for years.
However many times you change your name, however "innocent" you try to post your little abusive questions.
I will be here.
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'Swastikas?'
Achtung mods - Godwin's law - you know what to do 8@??)(
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[ censored word ]s, lovers... isn't that terribly time consuming ? And we don't have eternity !
Think of this : you go to the movie with friends. After the film (before, you're alone in front of the film, you would hate to be disturbed by your companions), discussion starts. Everyone has seen a different film ! But, helped by others, every one manages to remember this and that and discussion can start. This is a wonderful opportunity to share something and exchange views.
Imo.
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[ censored word ]s, lovers... isn't that terribly time consuming ? And we don't have eternity !
Think of this : you go to the movie with friends. After the film (before, you're alone in front of the film, you would hate to be disturbed by your companions), discussion starts. Everyone has seen a different film ! But, helped by others, every one manages to remember this and that and discussion can start. This is a wonderful opportunity to share something and exchange views.
Imo.
Except that this "film" isn't about fictional characters. The "protagonists" are a real family with a real-life missing child and two other children, plus an extended family. The "supporting cast" also involves families with their own children.
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[ censored word ]s, lovers... isn't that terribly time consuming ? And we don't have eternity !
Think of this : you go to the movie with friends. After the film (before, you're alone in front of the film, you would hate to be disturbed by your companions), discussion starts. Everyone has seen a different film ! But, helped by others, every one manages to remember this and that and discussion can start. This is a wonderful opportunity to share something and exchange views.
Imo.
Except that this "film" isn't about fictional characters. The "protagonists" are a real family with a real-life missing child and two other children, plus an extended family. The "supporting cast" also involves families with their own children.
Quite. I think it's quite revealing that some people view this case on a par with a film - it's just so much entertainment for some people, it's very sad. 8(8-))
I think Anne was posting metaphorically and not suggesting in any way this was not a true life case. Many people see a certain thing but have different views on it. The suggestion that people find it entertaining or enjoyable or to quote others saying people get their *jollies* to discuss the case of a missing child, or adult, or any other crime just for the fun of it is insulting. It is depressing and sad at the best of times. But people are interested in many facets of this highly profile and notorious case and not just this one, that is what this forum is half at least about. You might as well be saying being curious, or wanting to find out about anything which is a mystery a crime.
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[ censored word ]s, lovers... isn't that terribly time consuming ? And we don't have eternity !
Think of this : you go to the movie with friends. After the film (before, you're alone in front of the film, you would hate to be disturbed by your companions), discussion starts. Everyone has seen a different film ! But, helped by others, every one manages to remember this and that and discussion can start. This is a wonderful opportunity to share something and exchange views.
Imo.
Except that this "film" isn't about fictional characters. The "protagonists" are a real family with a real-life missing child and two other children, plus an extended family. The "supporting cast" also involves families with their own children.
Quite. I think it's quite revealing that some people view this case on a par with a film - it's just so much entertainment for some people, it's very sad. 8(8-))
I think Anne was posting metaphorically and not suggesting in any way this was not a true life case. Many people see a certain thing but have different views on it. The suggestion that people find it entertaining or enjoyable or to quote others saying people get their *jollies* to discuss the case of a missing child, or adult, or any other crime just for the fun of it is insulting. It is depressing and sad at the best of times. But people are interested in many facets of this highly profile and notorious case and not just this one, that is what this forum is half at least about. You might as well be saying being curious, or wanting to find out about anything which is a mystery a crime.
Many thanks, Redblossom. I was about to answer and finally decided I wouldn't risk to be misunderstood any further. My issue was multiplying the points of view, compare and criticize them trying to put ourselves in the shoes of other posters in order to try to achieve what I'm here for : understand.
I was mentioning a debate on a fictional film but I could have invoked literature which so often offers an experience of the world, a perception of human beings as valuable as law to achieve justice.
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That is Ok Anne, I think most people knew what you meant