UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Alleged Miscarriages of Justice => Jeremy Bamber and the callous murder of his father, mother, sister and twin nephews. Case effectively CLOSED by CCRC on basis of NO APPEAL REFERRAL. => Topic started by: adam on January 15, 2020, 10:08:25 PM
-
A pity the second episode cut short Stan Jones upstairs at WHF. Trying to work out how Sheila could have done it.
Surely Taff was not as bad as being made out. However EP should have tried to do a detailed reconstruction of how Sheila committed the massacre. Based on the crime scene evidence. They would have realised Sheila could not have done it.
They should have also checked the windows in more detail. To see if any could be secured from outside. Which would not be unusual.
Nevill calling Jeremy is also totally daft.
-
A pity there will not be a reconstruction of Jeremy committing the massacre. As most of the series is discussing it. How exciting would a good reconstruction be.
Colin Caffell contributed to the 6 part series but did not want any shooting.
-
A pity there will not be a reconstruction of Jeremy committing the massacre. As most of the series is discussing it. How exciting would a good reconstruction be.
Colin Caffell contributed to the 6 part series but did not want any shooting.
Exciting is not the word I would use, nor would I think an ‘exciting” reconstruction very appropriate. Are we watching this for the excitement value?
-
Episode 2: "Oddly artificial"? I quite agree...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/tv/2020/01/15/white-house-farm-episode-2-review-despite-based-real-crime-feels/ (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/tv/2020/01/15/white-house-farm-episode-2-review-despite-based-real-crime-feels/)
That head butt on Stan by a shouty Taff Jones was beyond the pale, highly unlikely... and shorthouses weren't allowed to join the police force pre 1980s.
As for Dr Peter Vanezis lookalike, the casting director needs a good talking to!
-
Episode 2: "Oddly artificial"? I quite agree...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/tv/2020/01/15/white-house-farm-episode-2-review-despite-based-real-crime-feels/ (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/tv/2020/01/15/white-house-farm-episode-2-review-despite-based-real-crime-feels/)
That head butt on Stan by a shouty Taff Jones was beyond the pale, highly unlikely... and shorthouses weren't allowed to join the police force pre 1980s.
As for Dr Peter Vanezis lookalike, the casting director needs a good talking to!
Taff used to stand on the toes of other officers' shoes, so that they couldn't move away when he was bollocking them, so you never know.....
-
Taff used to stand on the toes of other officers' shoes, so that they couldn't move away when he was bollocking them, so you never know.....
To make himself look taller?
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
Episode 2: "Oddly artificial"? I quite agree...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/tv/2020/01/15/white-house-farm-episode-2-review-despite-based-real-crime-feels/ (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/tv/2020/01/15/white-house-farm-episode-2-review-despite-based-real-crime-feels/)
That head butt on Stan by a shouty Taff Jones was beyond the pale, highly unlikely... and shorthouses weren't allowed to join the police force pre 1980s.
As for Dr Peter Vanezis lookalike, the casting director needs a good talking to!
That was certainly true of the Met. A friend's son failed his first attempt because he was found to be a mere half inch outside their strict parameters. However, he wrote back saying he'd been taller than the senior officer who interviewed him. He was re-interviewed.................and accepted!
-
That was certainly true of the Met. A friend's son failed his first attempt because he was found to be a mere half inch outside their strict parameters. However, he wrote back saying he'd been taller than the senior officer who interviewed him. He was re-interviewed.................and accepted!
They accept midgets these days... but in the mid-20th century? I remember recruiting adverts where the absolute minimum height requirement was 5'7".
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1242863/Pictured-The-smallest-police-officer-British-history-5ft-tall-Pc-Port.html (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1242863/Pictured-The-smallest-police-officer-British-history-5ft-tall-Pc-Port.html)
Do you think that Taff Jones would have singled out and shouted so vehemently at Peter Vanezis when at WHF - "What the bloody hell is he doing here?!!!"
Who was moustachioed DI Cresswell? Never heard of him, neither had CAL, CC or the Essex Police Force!
Dr. Vanezis, DI Cresswell and DI Ron Cook as portrayed in the ITV drama...
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
To make himself look taller?
Ha!! Taff wasn't that short (and I don't think he came from Bangladesh) and lovely Stan wasn't that tubby. But I'm LOVING Freddie Fox!! He'll be up for some awards.
8((()*/
-
I tried to find out the viewing figs yesterday but there's a bit of a lag. Should be available soon.
-
Ha!! Taff wasn't that short (and I don't think he came from Bangladesh) and lovely Stan wasn't that tubby. But I'm LOVING Freddie Fox!! He'll be up for some awards.
8((()*/
... or dishevelled!
The real, dapper 'Stan the Man'... https://youtu.be/k96gmbXLoMw?t=1179 (https://youtu.be/k96gmbXLoMw?t=1179)
-
... or dishevelled!
The real, dapper 'Stan the Man'... https://youtu.be/k96gmbXLoMw?t=1179 (https://youtu.be/k96gmbXLoMw?t=1179)
Haven't seen him downing the whiskies yet!?
-
Haven't seen him downing the whiskies yet!?
He wasn't staggering in an alcoholic haze on the way to Chelmsford Crown Court! 8((()*/
-
Just watched Part 2. Still wondering. It could be either. Although it does say that some things have been altered.
But at least I won't be insulted off The Forum this time around.
I only came here for The Bamber Forum in the beginning because I thought he might be innocent. Why? Sheila could have shot herself twice. And the original investigation was a bit of a cock up.
-
Just watched Part 2. Still wondering. It could be either. Although it does say that some things have been altered.
But at least I won't be insulted off The Forum this time around.
I only came here for The Bamber Forum in the beginning because I thought he might be innocent. Why? Sheila could have shot herself twice. And the original investigation was a bit of a cock up.
You'll get there in the end, just like APRIL and Caroline did. 8(0(*
-
You'll get there in the end, just like APRIL and Caroline did. 8(0(*
Don't be too sure of that. There could be a Reasonable Doubt, which is what I have always suspected.
-
More from Colin Caffell... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afIXWrexiWk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afIXWrexiWk)
-
Don't be too sure of that. There could be a Reasonable Doubt, which is what I have always suspected.
The jury with a 10 to 2 verdict didn’t think so .
-
The jury with a 10 to 2 verdict didn’t think so .
Don't make me laugh. This was over thirty years ago. And anyway 2 out of 12 is a doubt. When did they bring that one in?
-
Don't make me laugh. This was over thirty years ago. And anyway 2 out of 12 is a doubt. When did they bring that one in?
Isn’t it that a jury has to consider as instructed by the judge “ beyond reasonable doubt and so it was 30 yrs ago ? (whatever that has to do with it ) 10 to 2 speaks for itself .
-
Isn’t it that a jury has to consider as instructed by the judge “ beyond reasonable doubt and so it was 30 yrs ago ? (whatever that has to do with it ) 10 to 2 speaks for itself .
Not for two of them it doesn't. Once upon a time it had to be 100%. What The Judge thinks is irrelevant when it comes to the decision of The Jury. The Jury is perfectly at liberty to disagree with The Judge.
My son, who knows nothing of this before now, is falling about laughing at how ridiculous the verdict was. However, I have suggested that he hold fire for a minute because it isn't that simple.
-
Five of the jurors were women, so one must make allowance for Bamber's fatal attraction.
-
Five of the jurors were women, so one must make allowance for Bamber's fatal attraction.
But which two disagreed? Your suggestion is Gender Bias of course. And so was the allocation of The Jury. Not that I have ever had much truck with that one.
However, Bamber did and still does look much like my first husband, so he wouldn't have had much luck with me on that one.
-
But which two disagreed? Your suggestion is Gender Bias of course. And so was the allocation of The Jury. Not that I have ever had much truck with that one.
However, Bamber did and still does look much like my first husband, so he wouldn't have had much luck with me on that one.
Are you suggesting women jurors would let a man’s looks influence their verdict?
-
Are you suggesting women jurors would let a man’s looks influence their verdict?
Not me, Sweetie. That was Myster who suggested that.
You really should read Comments before you Comment.
-
Exciting is not the word I would use, nor would I think an ‘exciting” reconstruction very appropriate. Are we watching this for the excitement value?
For me it would have been exciting. After 35 years, finally a realistic reconstruction. The CT would have been outraged as millions of people saw how straight forward it would have been.
Gratuitous? -
Bamber cycling to WHF. No.
Bamber getting in through the window. No.
Bamber shooting & reloading. No. Close ups of the victims not needed.
The kitchen fight. No. Fights happen in Sunday afternoon films.
Staging the scene. No.
Cycling home. No.
---------------
But as said, CC worked with ITV & is promoting his updated book. But did not want any shooting.
-
More from Colin Caffell... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afIXWrexiWk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afIXWrexiWk)
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7894563/amp/Murdered-Sheila-Caffells-widow-reveals-welcomed-killer-Jeremy-Bamber-home.html?__twitter_impression=true
-
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7894563/amp/Murdered-Sheila-Caffells-widow-reveals-welcomed-killer-Jeremy-Bamber-home.html?__twitter_impression=true (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7894563/amp/Murdered-Sheila-Caffells-widow-reveals-welcomed-killer-Jeremy-Bamber-home.html?__twitter_impression=true)
Who'd have thought that Colin C. would ever make his presence known again so publicly re. this case after all these years?
-
Not me, Sweetie. That was Myster who suggested that.
You really should read Comments before you Comment.
It was you who brought into it that Bamber wouldn’t have had much luck with you because he looked like your first husband which points to you being influenced by a suspect’s looks .
-
Who'd have thought that Colin C. would ever make his presence known again so publicly re. this case after all these years?
There’s more from him here https://mobile.twitter.com/BBCEssex/status/1215244514606096384
’so everything that Jeremy is saying is an absolute myth it’s a fantasy
-
It was you who brought into it that Bamber wouldn’t have had much luck with you because he looked like your first husband which points to you being influenced by a suspect’s looks .
Did I say that I would have convicted him on that score?
Don't try Semantics with me. I am so much better at it than you are.
PS. Are you stalking me? If so then take it back to The McCann Forum.
-
Did I say that I would have convicted him on that score?
Don't try Semantics with me. I am so much better at it than you are.
PS. Are you stalking me? If so then take it back to The McCann Forum.
So explain what you meant by “ not much luck “ if not that you would convict him .
Why would I want to stalk you of all people ?
As for telling me where to go . More than a touch of Anne Robinson there but you’ve obviously not noticed I quit there quite a long time ago .Guess why .
-
When is The Silencer going to appear? I lost track of that so can anyone help?
-
When is The Silencer going to appear? I lost track of that so can anyone help?
In one, some or all of the next four episodes. But to whet your appetite, it was found by David Boutflour in the under-stairs gun cupboard in Nevill's Office/Den. Would Sheila have crawled on her hands and knees to get five more bullets when there was a plentiful supply of thirty on the kitchen worktop?...
-
To make things a little clearer...
Bamber claimed that he emptied an almost full box of Eley .22 bullets onto the kitchen worktop, before loading the Anschutz magazine and going outside to shoot some rabbits. He returned having fired none, but unclipped the magazine, removed a bullet from the breach and inserted it back in the magazine, then placed it on the settle (in the Scullery photo) and leaned the Anschutz up against the wall, butt down, next to it. A full box can hold no more than fifty bullets. Twenty five in total were used in the shooting, which means that there should have been no more than twenty-five remaining on the worktop. But thirty were found and photographed there by DC Bird. When questioned about this discrepancy, Bamber had no answer.
-
Don't make me laugh. This was over thirty years ago. And anyway 2 out of 12 is a doubt. When did they bring that one in?
Whats 30 yrs ago got to do with the majority verdict.
The killers of Margaret Fleming were convicted on a majority not a unanimous verdict,nothing new it seems.
-
To make things a little clearer...
Bamber claimed that he emptied an almost full box of Eley .22 bullets onto the kitchen worktop, before loading the Anschutz magazine and going outside to shoot some rabbits. He returned having fired none, but unclipped the magazine, removed a bullet from the breach and inserted it back in the magazine, then placed it on the settle (in the Scullery photo) and leaned the Anschutz up against the wall, butt down, next to it. A full box can hold no more than fifty bullets. Twenty five in total were used in the shooting, which means that there should have been no more than twenty-five remaining on the worktop. But thirty were found and photographed there by DC Bird. When questioned about this discrepancy, Bamber had no answer.
Its a strange choice of gun to go rabbiting with,its usually a twelve bore.
-
To make things a little clearer...
Bamber claimed that he emptied an almost full box of Eley .22 bullets onto the kitchen worktop, before loading the Anschutz magazine and going outside to shoot some rabbits. He returned having fired none, but unclipped the magazine, removed a bullet from the breach and inserted it back in the magazine, then placed it on the settle (in the Scullery photo) and leaned the Anschutz up against the wall, butt down, next to it. A full box can hold no more than fifty bullets. Twenty five in total were used in the shooting, which means that there should have been no more than twenty-five remaining on the worktop. But thirty were found and photographed there by DC Bird. When questioned about this discrepancy, Bamber had no answer.
Well, not one he could express. The rifle must have already had 5 bullets loaded - which shows that the rabbit story is rubbish.
-
Its a strange choice of gun to go rabbiting with,its usually a twelve bore.
Excerpts courtesy of Gunfire Graffiti - THE WHITE HOUSE FARM MURDERS – BAMBER or CAFFELL January 11, 2020
‘Sheila Caffell never voiced or displayed any interest in firearms or shooting. If she had and if only to fulfil a plan to kill her family maintaining a secret shooting pursuit in the UK would have been extremely difficult. There was certainly evidence that Sheila Caffell had a rudimentary experience of firing a shotgun but that does not qualify someone to purposefully and individually operate it or any other firearm. It has also been implied that because she was brought up in a rural farming family, she would learn how to handle firearms. That is a very common, urban inspired myth and likened to supposing a Merchant Sea Captain’s daughter is skilled at deep sea fishing and tying knots. Sheila Caffell would have needed to have been able to do the following, quickly and confidentially.
Magazine charging / Loading / Making ready
Unless she had acquired extra magazines, (which were never found), she would have to be able to charge a single magazine 3 times with a total of 25 x .22 bullets. Load the rifle, (attach the charged magazine into the magazine housing). Make ready, (withdraw the cocking handle to the rear and let it go – the bolt assembly flies forward under spring tension and picks the top round off the magazine and feeds it into the breech. This also cocks the internal hammer. The process of making a semi-auto rifle ready, (loaded and cocked to fire), is not natural, it takes practise. The natural inclination of the inexperienced shooter is to keep hold of the cocking handle and guide it forward. This will generally fail to pick up a round and will result in a misfeed. The analogy here is when we learn to allow an open car bonnet to drop the last couple of feet to enable it to lock. It’s not natural…but we only learn after we are initially shown.
Placing fired rounds with no hesitation or mercy
She was able to remove the safety and then very confidently bring the weapon to bear, (this is where removing the scope was so important). Firing and placing rounds into shouting, flailing, pleading human frames at close range would require some cold composure; despite being a schizophrenic, physically weak and uncoordinated. Her proprioceptive skills and co-ordination here was truly remarkable, she found her target on every attempt, not one round missed.
Sheila Caffell’s suicide or murder
She then returned to her parent’s bedroom, laid down turned the rifle around and shot herself in the throat, planning to discharge a bullet through her palate and into her brain. She failed but despite the shock and pain of that attempt she managed to realign the weapon again and on the second attempt successfully killed herself. She had accounted for her rounds perfectly and had had a single round left for her own departure but when she failed to kill herself she reloaded the rifle having conveniently access to one further round and finished the job. So with all this in mind she had been able to count her rounds in the most peculiar circumstances. Now having killed herself she had even left the weapon “safe”; no rounds in the chamber or magazine. She didn’t even take her own life in her son’s bedroom as her ex husband Colin Caffell had pointed out and insisted she would have done if she had ever resorted to something so diabolical.
Counting rounds, being acutely aware of ammunition expenditure, timing reloads etc are drills practised by the military and armed police. In the heat of a live murderous shooting, this slightly built, physically weakened schizophrenic became a hideous Lara Croft; she was remarkable.
http://gunfire-graffiti.co.uk/the-white-house-farm-murders-caffel-or-bamber/
-
Oh, and Aunt Agatha, if you're watching, Michael Winner was a maker of FANTASY films and never made one about Jeremy Bamber. You should really avoid being taken in by Teskowski's BS.
https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0935382/ (https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0935382/)
I believe she is referring to this series:
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0103571/?ref_=ttfc_fc_tt
Season 1 Episode 2 The Village Murders Aired 6 Jun. 1992
If it does include a reconstruction with Sheila being found in the kitchen, I would like to see it. It then begs the question where did Winner get that idea from in 1992? Was it mentioned in COLP 1991? *%87
-
Excerpts courtesy of Gunfire Graffiti - THE WHITE HOUSE FARM MURDERS – BAMBER or CAFFELL January 11, 2020
‘Sheila Caffell never voiced or displayed any interest in firearms or shooting. If she had and if only to fulfil a plan to kill her family maintaining a secret shooting pursuit in the UK would have been extremely difficult. There was certainly evidence that Sheila Caffell had a rudimentary experience of firing a shotgun but that does not qualify someone to purposefully and individually operate it or any other firearm. It has also been implied that because she was brought up in a rural farming family, she would learn how to handle firearms. That is a very common, urban inspired myth and likened to supposing a Merchant Sea Captain’s daughter is skilled at deep sea fishing and tying knots. Sheila Caffell would have needed to have been able to do the following, quickly and confidentially.
Magazine charging / Loading / Making ready
Unless she had acquired extra magazines, (which were never found), she would have to be able to charge a single magazine 3 times with a total of 25 x .22 bullets. Load the rifle, (attach the charged magazine into the magazine housing). Make ready, (withdraw the cocking handle to the rear and let it go – the bolt assembly flies forward under spring tension and picks the top round off the magazine and feeds it into the breech. This also cocks the internal hammer. The process of making a semi-auto rifle ready, (loaded and cocked to fire), is not natural, it takes practise. The natural inclination of the inexperienced shooter is to keep hold of the cocking handle and guide it forward. This will generally fail to pick up a round and will result in a misfeed. The analogy here is when we learn to allow an open car bonnet to drop the last couple of feet to enable it to lock. It’s not natural…but we only learn after we are initially shown.
Placing fired rounds with no hesitation or mercy
She was able to remove the safety and then very confidently bring the weapon to bear, (this is where removing the scope was so important). Firing and placing rounds into shouting, flailing, pleading human frames at close range would require some cold composure; despite being a schizophrenic, physically weak and uncoordinated. Her proprioceptive skills and co-ordination here was truly remarkable, she found her target on every attempt, not one round missed.
Sheila Caffell’s suicide or murder
She then returned to her parent’s bedroom, laid down turned the rifle around and shot herself in the throat, planning to discharge a bullet through her palate and into her brain. She failed but despite the shock and pain of that attempt she managed to realign the weapon again and on the second attempt successfully killed herself. She had accounted for her rounds perfectly and had had a single round left for her own departure but when she failed to kill herself she reloaded the rifle having conveniently access to one further round and finished the job. So with all this in mind she had been able to count her rounds in the most peculiar circumstances. Now having killed herself she had even left the weapon “safe”; no rounds in the chamber or magazine. She didn’t even take her own life in her son’s bedroom as her ex husband Colin Caffell had pointed out and insisted she would have done if she had ever resorted to something so diabolical.
Counting rounds, being acutely aware of ammunition expenditure, timing reloads etc are drills practised by the military and armed police. In the heat of a live murderous shooting, this slightly built, physically weakened schizophrenic became a hideous Lara Croft; she was remarkable.
http://gunfire-graffiti.co.uk/the-white-house-farm-murders-caffel-or-bamber/
Thanks,I know full well about urban myths surrounding rural life.
The spent casing's, is it known if these were found in situ and correlated with the shooting pattern?
-
Thanks,I know full well about urban myths surrounding rural life.
The spent casing's, is it known if these were found in situ and correlated with the shooting pattern?
Yes. But apparently this wasn't pursued as rigorously as it should have been.
PS. I am only answering this because better informed people haven't.
-
To make things a little clearer...
Bamber claimed that he emptied an almost full box of Eley .22 bullets onto the kitchen worktop, before loading the Anschutz magazine and going outside to shoot some rabbits. He returned having fired none, but unclipped the magazine, removed a bullet from the breach and inserted it back in the magazine, then placed it on the settle (in the Scullery photo) and leaned the Anschutz up against the wall, butt down, next to it. A full box can hold no more than fifty bullets. Twenty five in total were used in the shooting, which means that there should have been no more than twenty-five remaining on the worktop. But thirty were found and photographed there by DC Bird. When questioned about this discrepancy, Bamber had no answer.
It has never been concluded whether 25 or 26 bullets were discharged which gives some idea of the state of play at soc and pathological evidence. Furthermore some of the casings had been loaded on a previous occasion evidenced by marks made by inserting them into the magazine. Given the experts were unable to determine how many shots were fired at victims and explain the markings why would you expect JB to be able to account for the above? And there's no evidence that WHF operated on the basis of a place for everything and everything in its place. For all anyone knows NB might have had a pile of cartridges on his desk from emptying the magazine on a previous occasion(s) and the perp took from this location. Or perp may have taken from elsewhere including the pile of ammo stored under the stairs.
I don't believe the above featured at trial?
-
Thanks,I know full well about urban myths surrounding rural life.
The spent casing's, is it known if these were found in situ and correlated with the shooting pattern?
A soc reconstruction (which to date has not been carried out by experts: ballistics, pathologist, soc analyst) by way of blood stains, casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks would absolve JB.
-
A soc reconstruction (which to date has not been carried out by experts: ballistics, pathologist, soc analyst) by way of blood stains, casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks would absolve JB.
IYO one presumes.
-
A soc reconstruction (which to date has not been carried out by experts: ballistics, pathologist, soc analyst) by way of blood stains, casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks would absolve JB.
The UK has few mass shootings due to its firearms laws/licensing hence when they do happen the expertise is lacking. It is almost certain that an expert of the calibre of Vincent Di Maio from the US would completely absolve JB.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vincent_Di_Maio
Afaik White House Farm is the only mass shooting to have occurred during peacetime and where there has been some argument as to who was responsible. Other mass shootings eg Hungerford, Cumbria and Dunblane were all cut and dried.
-
It has never been concluded whether 25 or 26 bullets were discharged which gives some idea of the state of play at soc and pathological evidence. Furthermore some of the casings had been loaded on a previous occasion evidenced by marks made by inserting them into the magazine. Given the experts were unable to determine how many shots were fired at victims and explain the markings why would you expect JB to be able to account for the above? And there's no evidence that WHF operated on the basis of a place for everything and everything in its place. For all anyone knows NB might have had a pile of cartridges on his desk from emptying the magazine on a previous occasion(s) and the perp took from this location. Or perp may have taken from elsewhere including the pile of ammo stored under the stairs.
I don't believe the above featured at trial?
Is the Tv showing Taff in his true light in so far as he decided murder/ suicide and that was it come what may and as far I could see the mattresses and presumably bedding was destroyed in the fire pit before the pathologist could complete his investigations?
-
The UK has few mass shootings due to its firearms laws/licensing hence when they do happen the expertise is lacking. It is almost certain that an expert of the calibre of Vincent Di Maio from the US would completely absolve JB.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vincent_Di_Maio
Afaik White House Farm is the only mass shooting to have occurred during peacetime and where there has been some argument as to who was responsible. Other mass shootings eg Hungerford, Cumbria and Dunblane were all cut and dried.
So WHF has two possibilities Sheila or Jeremy.
-
IYO one presumes.
No not imo. Its all based on scientific fact.
-
Was this true? convenient alibi,didn't work though.
From that point forward Sheila had little time with her sons, and according to Bamber, the family had spoken about putting them into foster care on the night they were all killed.
https://www.essexlive.news/news/essex-news/who-sheila-caffell-accused-white-3741900
-
No not imo. Its all based on scientific fact.
I'm sure this as all been discussed before,doesn't seem as the authorities who keep Bamber locked up are on your wavelength.
-
So WHF has two possibilities Sheila or Jeremy.
Yes lawyers for defence and prosecution along with trial judge agreed perp was either JB or SC and no other possibility existed. This was due to the fact the property was found secured from within but the prosecution was able to argue JB knew of a way of closing a window shut behind him causing it to become secured from within! A pity jurors were not taken to White House Farm to see how this worked in practice!
Of course all sorts of nutty people put forward bizarre theories involving mystery third persons but in reality twas JB or SC.
-
Was this true? convenient alibi,didn't work though.
From that point forward Sheila had little time with her sons, and according to Bamber, the family had spoken about putting them into foster care on the night they were all killed.
https://www.essexlive.news/news/essex-news/who-sheila-caffell-accused-white-3741900
SC last received in-patient psychiatric care in Mar/Apr 85 and was discharged around that time. Up until the murders CC had custody of the children (from SC's last breakdown) and was looking to NB for support in getting SC to see this was in the twin's best interest on a permanent basis. He wrote a damning letter to NB (not actually sent) about how SC just wasn't coping with the twins so much so the twins head teacher has raised the subject with CC.
-
I'm sure this as all been discussed before,doesn't seem as the authorities who keep Bamber locked up are on your wavelength.
No a soc reconstruction has never been carried out showing who was shot where and order of shootings as far as possible to determine. Please bear in mind this case dates back to mid 80's at a time when private forensic service providers as we know them today were unheard of. The defence was largely dependent on the Home Office funded Forensic Science Service which a) wasn't fit for purpose and b) was conflicted by its dual role in acting for the police/prosecution:
3.3.1 Following some high profile quality failures in the 1980s the FSS implemented accreditation to quality standards from 1993 onwards, a world first for forensic science. The present FSS in-house quality framework goes well beyond the basic requirements of ISO17025 and is in close accord with the FSR’s forthcoming Codes. Indeed, before closure was announced the FSS were planning to act as a test-bed for compliance to this code later this year.
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201011/cmselect/cmsctech/writev/forensic/m61.htm
-
Is the Tv showing Taff in his true light in so far as he decided murder/ suicide and that was it come what may and as far I could see the mattresses and presumably bedding was destroyed in the fire pit before the pathologist could complete his investigations?
Its all myth. Firstly the most senior officer at soc was Chief Sup George Harris who arrived long before DCI 'Taff' Jones and DS Stanley Jones. The Chief Sup wrote the soc off as 4 murders/1 suicide along with police surgeon Dr Ian Craig.
Soc officer DC Hammerlsey confirmed at trial everything of evidential value by way of blood stained bedding etc had been collected, given an exhibit number and preserved for forensics.
DCI Jones made notes in his notebook about the doors and windows all secured from within. He also made a note about blood stains on carpets notably the landing and hall which really tells the story.
One assumes DCI Jones was made a DCI for a reason. Unfortunately he had a tragic accident shortly before trial and died. He was always of the opinion SC was responsible. The accident was genuine in that he fell off some ladders carrying out diy at home.
If you're interested you can read wit stats etc in the archives/library.
-
Having followed this Forum for a very long time, I think it is fair to say that Holly knows what she is talking about when it comes to The Bamber Case.
-
You'll get there in the end, just like APRIL and Caroline did. 8(0(*
I think some people don't realise the shock and pain inflicted on the body after a gunshot and especially one to the neck. Had Sheila shot herself she would have been rendered unconscious or rolling all over the floor in agony with blood going everywhere and especially on her hands and fingers. None of that happened here, there were no blood smears anywhere on her face or neck, she certainly didn't react to the first shot which suggests she was rendered incapable of responding.
-
Don't be too sure of that. There could be a Reasonable Doubt, which is what I have always suspected.
There is no such thing as reasonable doubt in the Bamber case, the evidence simply rules out Sheila and implicates Jeremy. No IMO needed or offered.
-
A soc reconstruction (which to date has not been carried out by experts: ballistics, pathologist, soc analyst) by way of blood stains, casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks would absolve JB.
Definitely not imo.
-
The UK has few mass shootings due to its firearms laws/licensing hence when they do happen the expertise is lacking. It is almost certain that an expert of the calibre of Vincent Di Maio from the US would completely absolve JB.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vincent_Di_Maio
Afaik White House Farm is the only mass shooting to have occurred during peacetime and where there has been some argument as to who was responsible. Other mass shootings eg Hungerford, Cumbria and Dunblane were all cut and dried.
Can't see it myself. The only evidence remaining is the location of the casings and the odd blood stain. There is no trajectory evidence per sé. The accumulated evidence points directly at Jeremy Bamber and that is unchallengeable imo.
-
So WHF has two possibilities Sheila or Jeremy.
Ultimately yes but the evidence taken together rules Sheila out completely. The location of the bullet casings reveals what went on the night the family were murdered. We know exactly what went on after the gunman entered the master bedroom. The only part we don't know is where Sheila was when her adoptive parents were being murdered or at what stage the twins were murdered.
-
Ultimately yes but the evidence taken together rules Sheila out completely. The location of the bullet casings reveals what went on the night the family were murdered. We know exactly what went on after the gunman entered the master bedroom. The only part we don't know is where Sheila was when her adoptive parents were being murdered or at what stage the twins were murdered.
To me the and how Sheila has been described she wouldn't have the wherewithal to use a silencer,a well thought out and planned executioner would do that imo.
-
To me the and how Sheila has been described she wouldn't have the wherewithal to use a silencer,a well thought out and planned executioner would do that imo.
Spot on barrier. Any novice would have fired off shots all over the place too but these were carefully placed shots intended to execute. It takes a particularly depraved cold-blooded psychopath to execute two small children as they slept.
-
Just managed to view part 2 this evening and it comes across very clearly how domineering DCI Taff Jones was. It says a lot for DS Stan Jones that he wasn't prepared to let that Welsh twit get the better of him. Stan Jones was an absolute hero in my book, a real copper to the end.
-
Just managed to view part 2 this evening and it comes across very clearly how domineering DCI Taff Jones was. It says a lot for DS Stan Jones that he wasn't prepared to let that Welsh twit get the better of him. Stan Jones was an absolute hero in my book, a real copper to the end.
I think Taff's portrayal was way too OTT, with gratuitous head-butting of Stan and belittling Peter Vanezis. Can't take that too seriously myself...
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
I think Taff's portrayal was way too OTT, with gratuitous head-butting of Stan and belittling Peter Vanezis. Can't take that too seriously myself...
Possibly. Given that both Taff and Stan are deceased, I wonder where the scriptwriters got the insight from to make such a strong portrayal?
Most of part 2 is stuff we already know about but it would have been useful if they had given more background to Jeremy Bamber and in particular his exploits down under and the theft and criminal damage at Osea Caravan Park. They also appear to have totally ignored his drug dealing exploits while in cahoots with Muggy.
-
Another review, from the Financial Times would you believe... https://www.ft.com/content/86ef4f86-378b-11ea-a6d3-9a26f8c3cba4 (https://www.ft.com/content/86ef4f86-378b-11ea-a6d3-9a26f8c3cba4)
-
Possibly. Given that both Taff and Stan are deceased, I wonder where the scriptwriters got the insight from to make such a strong portrayal?
Most of part 2 is stuff we already know about but it would have been useful if they had given more background to Jeremy Bamber and in particular his exploits down under and the theft and criminal damage at Osea Caravan Park. They also appear to have totally ignored his drug dealing exploits while in cahoots with Muggy.
Maybe the producers refrained from showing the actual shooting for Colin Caffell's and the relatives' sake, so had to make it more aggressive and gripping in other ways.
Their budget might not have stretched to giving freebie holidays in Oz for Freddie Fox and Alfie Allen.
-
Well, not one he could express. The rifle must have already had 5 bullets loaded - which shows that the rabbit story is rubbish.
Bamber said that the magazine was empty before he loaded it. Read his statement carefully...
-
A box of the Eley .22 cartridges of the same type and period, and the thirty cgs and box discovered on the kitchen worktop...
-
Yes lawyers for defence and prosecution along with trial judge agreed perp was either JB or SC and no other possibility existed. This was due to the fact the property was found secured from within but the prosecution was able to argue JB knew of a way of closing a window shut behind him causing it to become secured from within! A pity jurors were not taken to White House Farm to see how this worked in practice!
Of course all sorts of nutty people put forward bizarre theories involving mystery third persons but in reality twas JB or SC.
And the alleged phone call.
-
Possibly. Given that both Taff and Stan are deceased, I wonder where the scriptwriters got the insight from to make such a strong portrayal?
Most of part 2 is stuff we already know about but it would have been useful if they had given more background to Jeremy Bamber and in particular his exploits down under and the theft and criminal damage at Osea Caravan Park. They also appear to have totally ignored his drug dealing exploits while in cahoots with Muggy.
I don't think it was made for the likes of us John, it's more for people who don't know anything (or very little) about it.
-
I don't think it was made for the likes of us John, it's more for people who don't know anything (or very little) about it.
Like these two who couldn't give a fig... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3X4639fu6Y8& (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3X4639fu6Y8&)
-
Having followed this Forum for a very long time, I think it is fair to say that Holly knows what she is talking about when it comes to The Bamber Case.
Thanks. Are you trying to encourage me back here rather than over there!?
-
I think some people don't realise the shock and pain inflicted on the body after a gunshot and especially one to the neck. Had Sheila shot herself she would have been rendered unconscious or rolling all over the floor in agony with blood going everywhere and especially on her hands and fingers. None of that happened here, there were no blood smears anywhere on her face or neck, she certainly didn't react to the first shot which suggests she was rendered incapable of responding.
I don't think you can generalise about the above as it surely depends on velocity of firearm and site of wound(s)? In any event the pathologist has always made clear SC's found state was consistent with suicide.
-
There is no such thing as reasonable doubt in the Bamber case, the evidence simply rules out Sheila and implicates Jeremy. No IMO needed or offered.
2 jurors found 'not guilty'.
-
I don't think it was made for the likes of us John, it's more for people who don't know anything (or very little) about it.
I'm one of those,do you think its trying to form a picture to one side of the argument,from the little I know its leaning me toward Jeremy,can't see for the life of me that its possible for Sheila to have done it,the silencer I know has not been brought into it yet,but many moons ago for my sins I used to shoot,can't recall a .22 being that loud to warrant a silencer.Twelve bore now that is a different beast altogether.
-
2 jurors found 'not guilty'.
It'll be a sad world when we all become automatons to follow a line.Its why we're all different,put 12 people in a room whats there to say they all must be convinced beyond reasonable doubt.Was it all the evidence against JB that they found to be of doubt or just one part that they couldn't agree with to return the guilty verdict,did they both disagree on the same points? so many variables just to say with conviction oh! but two found JB not guilty.
-
Can't see it myself. The only evidence remaining is the location of the casings and the odd blood stain. There is no trajectory evidence per sé. The accumulated evidence points directly at Jeremy Bamber and that is unchallengeable imo.
The evidence at soc by way of blood stains, casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks show exactly what happened: perp was upstairs and NB was first shot twice in the face whilst he was on the landing facing into the bedroom with perp stood inside main bedroom firing at NB on the landing.
In the case of MM forensic scientist talked about a case where the police bought a house to preserve blood stains which in the end caused the case to take a completely different direction. In this case blood stain analysis was in its infancy and wasn't used at trial in the way it would be today. I believe there is still some potential for this aspect to be reevaluated based on soc images.
-
To me the and how Sheila has been described she wouldn't have the wherewithal to use a silencer,a well thought out and planned executioner would do that imo.
There's no direct evidence a silencer was used.
-
The evidence at soc by way of blood stains, casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks show exactly what happened: perp was upstairs and NB was first shot twice in the face whilst he was on the landing facing into the bedroom with perp stood inside main bedroom firing at NB on the landing.
In the case of MM forensic scientist talked about a case where the police bought a house to preserve blood stains which in the end caused the case to take a completely different direction. In this case blood stain analysis was in its infancy and wasn't used at trial in the way it would be today. I believe there is still some potential for this aspect to be reevaluated based on soc images.
Then he went down stairs and suffered a severe beating? two shots and were supposed to believe only two done for Sheila of her own hand? did the post mortems decalre which shot would have killed the others?
-
There's no direct evidence a silencer was used.
Other than the fact that there was blood of the same type as Sheila's found on the inside baffles, and paint embedded in the knurled end, matching the same colours and layers of that on the AGA mantelshelf.
-
Spot on barrier. Any novice would have fired off shots all over the place too but these were carefully placed shots intended to execute. It takes a particularly depraved cold-blooded psychopath to execute two small children as they slept.
The shots were all over the place. JB was a marksman. SC had little knowledge/experience. 25/26 shots fired. JB would have been able to kill each victim with 1 shot aimed at the head. In the case of David Bain 5 family members died from gunshot wounds. The firearm used had the same velocity as the one used in this case. The perp was experienced with the firearm and used a total of 8 cartridges to kill 5 adults. That's 2/3rd's less than the 25/26 cartridges used in this case.
-
The evidence at soc by way of blood stains, casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks show exactly what happened: perp was upstairs and NB was first shot twice in the face whilst he was on the landing facing into the bedroom with perp stood inside main bedroom firing at NB on the landing.
In the case of MM forensic scientist talked about a case where the police bought a house to preserve blood stains which in the end caused the case to take a completely different direction. In this case blood stain analysis was in its infancy and wasn't used at trial in the way it would be today. I believe there is still some potential for this aspect to be reevaluated based on soc images.
No it does not!!! Nevill was nowhere near the landing when shot. The number and positions of the spent cartridges on the bedroom floor show that Nevill was shot first as he was getting out of bed having been disturbed by noises made by an intruder, i.e. Jeremy Bamber.
-
Other than the fact that there was blood of the same type as Sheila's found on the inside baffles, and paint embedded in the knurled end, matching the same colours and layers of that on the AGA mantelshelf.
Yes but there's no direct evidence a silencer was used eg markings on bullets. The blood and paint is at the heart of the case and highly contentious given the way in which it was found and the chain of custody thereafter.
-
The shots were all over the place. JB was a marksman. SC had little knowledge/experience. 25/26 shots fired. JB would have been able to kill each victim with 1 shot aimed at the head. In the case of David Bain 5 family members died from gunshot wounds. The firearm used had the same velocity as the one used in this case. The perp was experienced with the firearm and used a total of 8 cartridges to kill 5 adults. That's 2/3rd's less than the 25/26 cartridges used in this case.
Nevill and June were awake and became moving targets for Bamber, which is why the shots were "all over the place". His original intention was to sneak into each bedroom whilst everyone was asleep and kill them all with shots to the head (as one would with usual prey, such as rabbits, foxes, and pigeons). With the twins he succeeded, but failed with the rest of the family.
-
Maybe the producers refrained from showing the actual shooting for Colin Caffell's and the relatives' sake, so had to make it more aggressive and gripping in other ways.
Their budget might not have stretched to giving freebie holidays in Oz for Freddie Fox and Alfie Allen.
And who should the producers show as perp?
I think if the producers were bothered about living relatives and the deceased victims they would not have made such a drama; drama being the operative word.
And I wonder how Mrs Taff Jones and her 3 children feel about the late Taff Jones portrayed in such a light.
And why is CC getting involved in all of this if not to make money?
-
Nevill and June were awake and became moving targets for Bamber, which is why the shots were "all over the place". His original intention was to sneak into each bedroom whilst everyone was asleep and kill them all with shots to the head (as one would with usual prey, such as rabbits, foxes, and pigeons). With the twins he succeeded, but failed with the rest of the family.
The shots were all close range.
-
The shots were all close range.
So?!
-
Then he went down stairs and suffered a severe beating? two shots and were supposed to believe only two done for Sheila of her own hand? did the post mortems decalre which shot would have killed the others?
NB sustained 4 gsw's upstairs: 2 to face which pathologist said would have killed him if other shots hadn't supervened. A shot to his arm which caused complete loss of use. The other shot was a graze only wound. The pathologist said the facial shots caused significant loss of blood internally and externally and pain. So by the time NB got to the kitchen he was severely incapacitated.
-
So?!
Whether the victims were prone in bed or standing in rooms they were easy targets.
-
And who should the producers show as perp?
I think if the producers were bothered about living relatives and the deceased victims they would not have made such a drama; drama being the operative word.
And I wonder how Mrs Taff Jones and her 3 children feel about the late Taff Jones portrayed in such a light.
And why is CC getting involved in all of this if not to make money?
It isn't a matter of should but will, i.e. the guy watching himself on TV in HMP Wakefield.
I agree that Taff Jones portrayal is way over the top though.
CC is only redressing the balance, so fair play to him...
https://mobile.twitter.com/BBCEssex/status/1215244514606096384 (https://mobile.twitter.com/BBCEssex/status/1215244514606096384)
-
No it does not!!! Nevill was nowhere near the landing when shot. The number and positions of the spent cartridges on the bedroom floor show that Nevill was shot first as he was getting out of bed having been disturbed by noises made by an intruder, i.e. Jeremy Bamber.
Yes it does!!!!
We've been through all this loads of time. NB was not shot in the bedroom evidenced by the fact his blood was not found in there. NB was shot on the landing as he was facing the perp stood inside the bedroom firing out onto the landing and this is supported by all the evidence: blood stains, casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks.
-
It isn't a matter of should but will, i.e. the guy watching himself on TV in HMP Wakefield.
I agree that Taff Jones portrayal is way over the top though.
CC is only redressing the balance, so fair play to him...
https://mobile.twitter.com/BBCEssex/status/1215244514606096384 (https://mobile.twitter.com/BBCEssex/status/1215244514606096384)
The producers make clear it is for viewers to decide hence the drama!
The tabloid media denigrated SC in the aftermath and CC himself was hardly complimentary about SC in his letter to NB.
JB is entitled to claim his innocence and given the nature of the case by default he's putting SC in the frame. But I'm not aware of him denigrating SC's character as others have done by referring to her as promiscuous and a drug taker.
-
Yes it does!!!!
We've been through all this loads of time. NB was not shot in the bedroom evidenced by the fact his blood was not found in there. NB was shot on the landing as he was facing the perp stood inside the bedroom firing out onto the landing and this is supported by all the evidence: blood stains, casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks.
Nevill's blood wasn't found on the landing/stairs carpet either, only on the downstairs hall wallpaper, five feet above the floor, from his left shoulder or arm injury as he staggered his way to the kitchen.
-
No it does not!!! Nevill was nowhere near the landing when shot. The number and positions of the spent cartridges on the bedroom floor show that Nevill was shot first as he was getting out of bed having been disturbed by noises made by an intruder, i.e. Jeremy Bamber.
Maybe Nevill grabbed his trousers from the bedroom floor and held them against his face to staunch the blood as he chased Bamber downstairs. Hence no blood from him in the bedroom, and the trousers ending up in the kitchen by Nevill's body.
-
Nevill's blood wasn't found on the landing/stairs carpet either, only on the downstairs hall wallpaper, five feet above the floor, from his left shoulder or arm injury as he staggered his way to the kitchen.
Blood on the stairs wasn't tested. If not NB, s who do you think it originated from?
-
Maybe Nevill grabbed his trousers from the bedroom floor and held them against his face to staunch the blood as he chased Bamber downstairs. Hence no blood from him in the bedroom, and the trousers ending up in the kitchen by Nevill's body.
How would you explain the blood on the stairs and the drips across the kitchen floor if NB was stemming blood as you suggest?
If NB was shot in the bedroom how would you explain the downward gsw trajectories to his face?
2
-
Maybe Nevill grabbed his trousers from the bedroom floor and held them against his face to staunch the blood as he chased Bamber downstairs. Hence no blood from him in the bedroom, and the trousers ending up in the kitchen by Nevill's body.
That's a good point, which I never thought about. But would he have had time to do so under a barrage of gunfire.
The trousers were laid out carefully on the floor of the kitchen too, so they appear to have been placed like that by someone else, whether Bamber or the TFU/police who wanted to avoid further contamination of the crime scene.
-
Blood on the stairs wasn't tested. If not NB, s who do you think it originated from?
From June's final head shot(s) as were cartridge cases DRH13 and DRH14 on the upper-landing and mid-landing respectively.
-
How would you explain the blood on the stairs and the drips across the kitchen floor if NB was stemming blood as you suggest?
If NB was shot in the bedroom how would you explain the downward gsw trajectories to his face?
2
Nevill may have been crouching, trying to avoid being shot.
-
How would you explain the blood on the stairs and the drips across the kitchen floor if NB was stemming blood as you suggest?
If NB was shot in the bedroom how would you explain the downward gsw trajectories to his face?
2
Nevill would have been getting weaker, and the blood flow heavier, as he moved, hence the blood on kitchen floor etc.
Sorry, I can't do this and the other stuff that I should be doing ATM. Catch you later.
-
Nevill would have been getting weaker, and the blood flow heavier, as he moved, hence the blood on kitchen floor etc.
Sorry, I can't do this and the other stuff that I should be doing ATM. Catch you later.
Ditto... as a male of the species it's impossible for me to multi-task, i.e. eat and type simultaneously.
-
Nevill may have been crouching, trying to avoid being shot.
Or leaning across the bed looking at June.
Really am going now!
-
From June's final head shot(s) as were cartridge cases DRH13 and DRH14 on the upper-landing and mid-landing respectively.
Blood tests on the two tiny stains on the landing were inconclusive in showing whose blood. Moreover how did they get there? Bearing in mind Crispy had free run of the doc for some 4 hours.
But what about the blood stains on the stairs carpet and those across the kitchen floor? If not NB's blood then whose?
-
Nevill may have been crouching, trying to avoid being shot.
But the trajectories were only some 10/12 degrees below the horizontal. If NB had been crouching the trajectory would have been much lower. Also the wound tracks do not correspond with NB shot in a crouching position.
-
From June's final head shot(s) as were cartridge cases DRH13 and DRH14 on the upper-landing and mid-landing respectively.
June's injuries are a bit of a mystery to me, the pillow looks as though she was shot in the head while in bed but both shots damaged her brain, so how did she walk around the bedroom?
-
Blood tests on the two tiny stains on the landing were inconclusive in showing whose blood. Moreover how did they get there? Bearing in mind Crispy had free run of the doc for some 4 hours.
But what about the blood stains on the stairs carpet and those across the kitchen floor? If not NB's blood then whose?
The drawn plans make the rooms appear so clean, but as you say, Crispy was wandering about for several hours, so he could have trodden in blood a few times spreading it everywhere. Then the TFU probably contributed too. What blood on the stairs carpet?... I don't remember mention of any, only the two spots on the upper-landing.
Most of that in the kitchen floor obviously belonged to Nevill, but again Crispy might have stood in the pooling there and also contributed traces from upstairs. By the time he was locked in a cupboard, the contamination was already done.
-
June's injuries are a bit of a mystery to me, the pillow looks as though she was shot in the head while in bed but both shots damaged her brain, so how did she walk around the bedroom?
Her neck wound (3) penetrated right through, so the bullet might have hit a minor artery which caused that heavy blood stain on her pillow. A bullet was also discovered within it. Impossible, I feel, that she could have wandered around the bed for very long, if at all, had wounds (1) and (2), which caused major brain disruption, been inflicted before the rest. So they occurred last as she lay in the doorway... mentioned by Vanezis and many times elsewhere. I think wound (7) happened whilst June was lying prone in bed with her right knee raised as she was attempting to get up. Only my opinion though, you might disagree...
-
The drawn plans make the rooms appear so clean, but as you say, Crispy was wandering about for several hours, so he could have trodden in blood a few times spreading it everywhere. Then the TFU probably contributed too. What blood on the stairs carpet?... I don't remember mention of any, only the two spots on the upper-landing.
Most of that in the kitchen floor obviously belonged to Nevill, but again Crispy might have stood in the pooling there and also contributed traces from upstairs. By the time he was locked in a cupboard, the contamination was already done.
DCI Jones makes ref to the blood stains on stairs in his notebook. AE also refers to in her wit stat. DCI Hammersly refers to a light distribution of blood on the kitchen floor.
-
DCI Jones makes ref to the blood stains on stairs in his notebook. AE also refers to in her wit stat. DCI Hammersly refers to a light distribution of blood on the kitchen floor.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=174.0;attach=373
-
Her neck wound (3) penetrated right through, so the bullet might have hit a minor artery which caused that heavy blood stain on her pillow. A bullet was also discovered within it. Impossible, I feel, that she could have wandered around the bed for very long, if at all, had wounds (1) and (2), which caused major brain disruption, been inflicted before the rest. So they occurred last as she lay in the doorway... mentioned by Vanezis and many times elsewhere. I think wound (7) happened whilst June was lying prone in bed with her right knee raised as she was attempting to get up. Only my opinion though, you might disagree...
June sustained 3 exit wounds of which 2 bullets ended up in the pillow. It is thought the neck wound occurred when her head was on the pillow.
Dr V makes clear in his trial testimony that the 2 gsw's June sustained to her head would have immobilised her either together or independently. Therefore they must have occurred where she was found.
-
Possibly. Given that both Taff and Stan are deceased, I wonder where the scriptwriters got the insight from to make such a strong portrayal?
Most of part 2 is stuff we already know about but it would have been useful if they had given more background to Jeremy Bamber and in particular his exploits down under and the theft and criminal damage at Osea Caravan Park. They also appear to have totally ignored his drug dealing exploits while in cahoots with Muggy.
Where to start? Perhaps look at June's severe depression in 1959 requiring in-patient psychiatric treatment and ect treatment. We are told by Dr Ferguson the source of the depression being her decision to adopt SC. Why was SC not removed from the Bambers care? Why were the Bambers allowed to adopt another baby?
-
It'll be a sad world when we all become automatons to follow a line.Its why we're all different,put 12 people in a room whats there to say they all must be convinced beyond reasonable doubt.Was it all the evidence against JB that they found to be of doubt or just one part that they couldn't agree with to return the guilty verdict,did they both disagree on the same points? so many variables just to say with conviction oh! but two found JB not guilty.
If it was all so compelling why not unanimous?
-
The evidence at soc by way of blood stains, casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks show exactly what happened: perp was upstairs and NB was first shot twice in the face whilst he was on the landing facing into the bedroom with perp stood inside main bedroom firing at NB on the landing.
In the case of MM forensic scientist talked about a case where the police bought a house to preserve blood stains which in the end caused the case to take a completely different direction. In this case blood stain analysis was in its infancy and wasn't used at trial in the way it would be today. I believe there is still some potential for this aspect to be reevaluated based on soc images.
I remember reading all about this previously, the shooter had to be stood just inside the bedroom door facing Nevill when he discharged the first shots which hit Nevill. Discharging the rifle while facing out to the landing would not have left the spent shells where they fell.
Clearly Nevill got out of bed and was confronted by the killer when he opened the bedroom door. He would have stepped back slightly before being shot. The Anschutz rifle discharges to the right when viewed from the shooting position.
-
The shots were all over the place. JB was a marksman. SC had little knowledge/experience. 25/26 shots fired. JB would have been able to kill each victim with 1 shot aimed at the head. In the case of David Bain 5 family members died from gunshot wounds. The firearm used had the same velocity as the one used in this case. The perp was experienced with the firearm and used a total of 8 cartridges to kill 5 adults. That's 2/3rd's less than the 25/26 cartridges used in this case.
That's exactly what Bamber thought but he and you are wrong. A single .22 round will not always kill a human and that is why Bamber fired several shots into most of his victims. Had a novice like Sheila used that rifle very few shots would have been on target. And regardless, it's sheer fantasy to think Sheila could ever have fought with her father and not ended up with injuries to herself or his blood all over her. It's all very silly imo to promote such a proposition and most people can see that now.
-
No it does not!!! Nevill was nowhere near the landing when shot. The number and positions of the spent cartridges on the bedroom floor show that Nevill was shot first as he was getting out of bed having been disturbed by noises made by an intruder, i.e. Jeremy Bamber.
Holly doesn't understand that apparently.
-
Whether the victims were prone in bed or standing in rooms they were easy targets.
Ever tried to shoot someone at close range indoors with a long barrelled rife?
If you had you would realise that it isn't easy at all.
-
Yes it does!!!!
We've been through all this loads of time. NB was not shot in the bedroom evidenced by the fact his blood was not found in there. NB was shot on the landing as he was facing the perp stood inside the bedroom firing out onto the landing and this is supported by all the evidence: blood stains, casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks.
Again Holly you have failed to understand the consequences of shooting someone with a single .22 standard bullet. Unlike 38 calibre or magnum rounds there would not be an exit wound so blood can only escape via the entry and that is by no means immediate. Nevill may not have bled through his pyjamas until he made his escape downstairs.
Not finding Nevill's blood in the bedroom has little significance.
-
June's injuries are a bit of a mystery to me, the pillow looks as though she was shot in the head while in bed but both shots damaged her brain, so how did she walk around the bedroom?
I don't believe the head shot occurred until she got out of bed.
-
If it was all so compelling why not unanimous?
You get them in most juries and I bet you would have been one of them had you been on that jury Holly?
-
You get them in most juries and I bet you would have been one of them had you been on that jury Holly?
You can lead a pussy to milk but you can't make it lick.
-
You get them in most juries and I bet you would have been one of them had you been on that jury Holly?
What % of UK criminal trials result in an ununanlmous verdict?
Many developed countries eg Canada and US disallow ununanimous verdicts.
-
You can lead a pussy to milk but you can't make it lick.
You and Angelo need to up your game as this pussy is only interested in creme de la creme 8(>((
-
Again Holly you have failed to understand the consequences of shooting someone with a single .22 standard bullet. Unlike 38 calibre or magnum rounds there would not be an exit wound so blood can only escape via the entry and that is by no means immediate. Nevill may not have bled through his pyjamas until he made his escape downstairs.
Not finding Nevill's blood in the bedroom has little significance.
Thank goodness there are people like me on juries if you think . 22's are incapable of causing exit wounds. May I suggest you refer to the pathology report and look at the number of exit wounds. The pathologist makes clear NB's facial wounds caused heavy blood loss internally and externally. NB's blood wasn't found in the bedroom because he wasn't shot there as per all the physical evidence,.
-
June sustained 3 exit wounds of which 2 bullets ended up in the pillow. It is thought the neck wound occurred when her head was on the pillow.
Dr V makes clear in his trial testimony that the 2 gsw's June sustained to her head would have immobilised her either together or independently. Therefore they must have occurred where she was found.
Unless she was moved.
-
Unless she was moved.
Is there any evidence she was moved?
-
Ever tried to shoot someone at close range indoors with a long barrelled rife?
If you had you would realise that it isn't easy at all.
It didn't seem to cause too much of a problem for Robin Bain with his . 22 when he shot 4 family members which only required 7 cartridges and 1 for himself (suicide).
-
It didn't seem to cause too much of a problem for Robin Bain with his . 22 when he shot 4 family members which only required 7 cartridges and 1 for himself (suicide).
You need to get your keyboard fixed. That should read David, not Robin.
-
You and Angelo need to up your game as this pussy is only interested in creme de la creme 8(>((
... but only when it's turned sour.
-
Thank goodness there are people like me on juries if you think . 22's are incapable of causing exit wounds. May I suggest you refer to the pathology report and look at the number of exit wounds. The pathologist makes clear NB's facial wounds caused heavy blood loss internally and externally. NB's blood wasn't found in the bedroom because he wasn't shot there as per all the physical evidence,.
But not in the split-seconds he was attempting to escape the volley of gunfire in his bedroom.
-
Thank goodness there are people like me on juries if you think . 22's are incapable of causing exit wounds. May I suggest you refer to the pathology report and look at the number of exit wounds. The pathologist makes clear NB's facial wounds caused heavy blood loss internally and externally. NB's blood wasn't found in the bedroom because he wasn't shot there as per all the physical evidence,.
You seem to think that juries are always made up of clueless old fogies!...
-
You need to get your keyboard fixed. That should read David, not Robin.
The law is not on your side with this one. As in this case the perp was one of two: David or Robin, both of whom were experienced with the . 22 rifle, and used only 8 cartridges to fatally wound 5. Contrast this with the 25/26 cartridges used at WHF. And some of the victims sustained one gunshot wound only which shows Angelo is wrong with his assertion that the Anshutz is low powered requiring multiple shots to cause a fatality. Multiple shots were fired as the perp was an inexperienced shooter.
-
But not in the split-seconds he was attempting to escape the volley of gunfire in his bedroom.
NB was not shot in the bedroom. Anyone who thinks otherwise needs to write down all the known facts and ask themselves how it could be done. Known facts:
- None of NB's blood found in bedroom
- No casings in bedroom attributable to NB's wounds
- Distance of shots
- Trajectories
- Wound tracks
The idea JB stood around the entrance to the main bedroom shooting wildly at June hitting her limbs and allowed NB to by-pass only to then shoot him twice in the rear: shoulder and elbow and then a scuffle ensued in the kitchen is nonsense. And where was SC when all this was going on.
-
You seem to think that juries are always made up of clueless old fogies!...
In theory jurors are representative of the population at large but I'm not sure this is true today given many legal immigrants are not eligible to vote in elections? I say this on the basis a Polish friend was not eligible to vote in the referendum.
Many often make sexist comments about the two dissenters in the Bamber case eg females taken in by JB's looks when in reality they might just have been super detailed people capable of forensic analysis of the salient points.
-
NB was not shot in the bedroom. Anyone who thinks otherwise needs to write down all the known facts and ask themselves how it could be done. Known facts:
- None of NB's blood found in bedroom
- No casings in bedroom attributable to NB's wounds
- Distance of shots
- Trajectories
- Wound tracks
The idea JB stood around the entrance to the main bedroom shooting wildly at June hitting her limbs and allowed NB to by-pass only to then shoot him twice in the rear: shoulder and elbow and then a scuffle ensued in the kitchen is nonsense. And where was SC when all this was going on.
Yes he was! No casings on the stairs attributable to Nevill, and distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks are just as plausible and fully explainable if he was shot in the bedroom instead of on the stairs.
Bamber's shots appeared to be wild because his parents were moving targets, and Sheila was in bed, doped up with Haldol.
-
In theory jurors are representative of the population at large but I'm not sure this is true today given many legal immigrants are not eligible to vote in elections? I say this on the basis a Polish friend was not eligible to vote in the referendum.
Many often make sexist comments about the two dissenters in the Bamber case eg females taken in by JB's looks when in reality they might just have been super detailed people capable of forensic analysis of the salient points.
I wouldn't be surprised... women being from the planet Venus an' all that.
-
The law is not on your side with this one. As in this case the perp was one of two: David or Robin, both of whom were experienced with the . 22 rifle, and used only 8 cartridges to fatally wound 5. Contrast this with the 25/26 cartridges used at WHF. And some of the victims sustained one gunshot wound only which shows Angelo is wrong with his assertion that the Anshutz is low powered requiring multiple shots to cause a fatality. Multiple shots were fired as the perp was an inexperienced shooter.
The Kiwi government don't agree with you. It was DB's rifle, kept in a wardrobe of his bedroom, only he knew where the trigger-lock key was hidden, his mother's damaged specs which he wore the previous weekend were found on a chair in his bedroom and its missing lens discovered on the floor of his younger brother's bedroom. Then there was his brother's blood found on DB's shorts, that phony phone call when he feigned distress, the washing of blood-stained clothes which he claims not to have noticed. I could go on, but why bother... Bain succeeded in getting a hefty payoff and is living happily ever after.
-
Yes he was! No casings on the stairs attributable to Nevill, and distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks are just as plausible and fully explainable if he was shot in the bedroom instead of on the stairs.
Bamber's shots appeared to be wild because his parents were moving targets, and Sheila was in bed, doped up with Haldol.
No he wasn't. Had the murders taken place in the 21st century WHF would have been preserved as a soc until long after the trial. A team of experts would have been deployed comprising ballistics, biologist, patholgist and soc analysts. These experts combined would be able to say with certainly who was shot where and the position of perp when firearm was discharged. Jurors and judge would have been taken to WHF to see for themselves how events unfolded. Computerised models might well have been created too. The fact such analysis hasn't taken place to date doesn't mean to say its not going to happen in the future. Soc images depict blood stains and casings. Measurements of rooms can be taken along with fixtures, fittings and furniture from soc images. The pathology report provides detail of victims' height along with trajectories and wound tracks all of which will show it was scientifically impossible that the perp burst into NB and June's bedroom and opened fire on a slumbering NB.
The level of Haloperidol in SC's system evidenced by toxicology report is inconsistent with her being drowsy.
-
The Kiwi government don't agree with you. It was DB's rifle, kept in a wardrobe of his bedroom, only he knew where the trigger-lock key was hidden, his mother's damaged specs which he wore the previous weekend were found on a chair in his bedroom and its missing lens discovered on the floor of his younger brother's bedroom. Then there was his brother's blood found on DB's shorts, that phony phone call when he feigned distress, the washing of blood-stained clothes which he claims not to have noticed. I could go on, but why bother... Bain succeeded in getting a hefty payoff and is living happily ever after.
In which case why was DB's conviction overturned and how come he received hefty financial compensation?
There's a separate board for this case. I introduced it here to show Angelo is wrong in his assertions that a. 22 is incapable of fatally wounding with one shot.
-
The level of Haloperidol in SC's system evidenced by toxicology report is inconsistent with her being drowsy.
Try telling that to Colin Caffell. He knew Sheila much better than you in the days before, as did her best friend Tora Tomkinson.
-
In which case why was DB's conviction overturned and how come he received hefty financial compensation?
There's a separate board for this case. I introduced it here to show Angelo is wrong in his assertions that a. 22 is incapable of fatally wounding with one shot.
The Kiwi government had the good sense to stop filling Bain's bottomless money-pot of legal fees, so saving their taxpayers from even more expense.
-
Try telling that to Colin Caffell. He knew Sheila much better than you in the days before, as did her best friend Tora Tomkinson.
I prefer to rely on the experts. Toxicology tests show the level of Haloperidol in SC's system inconsistent with drowsiness. In any event drowsy or not it doesn't detract from all the physical evidence at soc which shows NB did not sustain any gsw's in his bedroom.
-
I prefer to rely on the experts. Toxicology tests show the level of Haloperidol in SC's system inconsistent with drowsiness. In any event drowsy or not it doesn't detract from all the physical evidence at soc which shows NB did not sustain any gsw's in his bedroom.
That's nonsense and you know it.
-
That's exactly what Bamber thought but he and you are wrong. A single .22 round will not always kill a human and that is why Bamber fired several shots into most of his victims. Had a novice like Sheila used that rifle very few shots would have been on target. And regardless, it's sheer fantasy to think Sheila could ever have fought with her father and not ended up with injuries to herself or his blood all over her. It's all very silly imo to promote such a proposition and most people can see that now.
So Newton's physics are all wrong too then?
The Home Office has calculated that a force of 3 - 4 joules is required to inflict a penetrating wound, point 26:
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199900/cmselect/cmhaff/95/9504.htm
The cartridges used at WHF weigh 2.59 grammes with a muzzle velocity of 1040 ft/s.
Kinetic Energy is 1/2 mv squared
Kinetic energy is 130.127 joules.
Joules required to inflict penetrating wound is 3 - 4 joules
Joules produced by muzzle velocity of cartridges used at WHF is 130.127 joules meaning one gunshot wound to the head with the hollow nosed bullets would be lethal. 25/26 were discharged because the perp was inexperienced with firearms.
-
So Newton's physics are all wrong too then?
The Home Office has calculated that a force of 3 - 4 joules is required to inflict a penetrating wound, point 26:
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199900/cmselect/cmhaff/95/9504.htm
The cartridges used at WHF weigh 2.59 grammes with a muzzle velocity of 1040 ft/s.
Kinetic Energy is 1/2 mv squared
Kinetic energy is 130.127 joules.
Joules required to inflict penetrating wound is 3 - 4 joules
Joules produced by muzzle velocity of cartridges used at WHF is 130.127 joules meaning one gunshot wound to the head with the hollow nosed bullets would be lethal. 25/26 were discharged because the perp was inexperienced with firearms.
Does your CV read like Alan Blackers Holly?
-
So Newton's physics are all wrong too then?
Explain
-
meaning one gunshot wound to the head with the hollow nosed bullets would be lethal.
*&^^&
Have you forgotten Bamber shot his sister twice
You appear to get so carried away in presenting your arguments Holly that your contradictions seem to pass you by
Shall we put it down to cognitive dissonance or that you haven’t a clue what you’re talking about?
-
That's nonsense and you know it.
No it isn't as evidenced by the toxicology report:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=207.0
Liver is 0.55 micrograms per gram
Blood is15 nanograms per millilitre
The above levels are consistent with a dose at the low end of the medium range as discussed here many times.
-
No it isn't as evidenced by the toxicology report:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=207.0
Liver is 0.55 micrograms per gram
Blood is15 nanograms per millilitre
The above levels are consistent with a dose at the low end of the medium range as discussed here many times.
Back up and explain your previous mistake above before confusing yourself further
-
The Home Office has calculated that a force of 3 - 4 joules is required to inflict a penetrating wound, point 26:
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199900/cmselect/cmhaff/95/9504.htm.
Why are you choosing to use the states guidelines to help present your arguments if you believe the state have Bamber wrongly in-prisoned?
And how did the state conclude the figures and what ‘experts’ helped conclude point 26?
26. The Home Office and the Forensic Science Service considers that the lowest level of muzzle energy capable of inflicting a penetrating wound is one foot pound (or about 1.35 joules): below these power levels, weapons are "incapable of penetrating even vulnerable parts of the body, such as the eye".[54] However, more recent analysis by the Forensic Science Agency for Northern Ireland has indicated that a more reasonable assessment of the minimum muzzle energy required to inflict a penetrating wound lies between 2.2 and 3.0 ft/lb (3-4 J).[55] We will deal more fully with this discrepancy at paragraphs 123 to 130 below.
-
No it isn't as evidenced by the toxicology report:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=207.0 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=207.0)
Liver is 0.55 micrograms per gram
Blood is15 nanograms per millilitre
The above levels are consistent with a dose at the low end of the medium range as discussed here many times.
You're too obsessive about scientific data.
I'd rather believe the people who knew Sheila, other than Jeremy Bamber of course, and who witnessed her deteriorating medical condition in those last few weeks and days, than the test results of a couple of blood and tissue samples in a test tube or petri dish.
From Carol Ann Lee - The Murders At White House Farm...
In a 2013 letter, Jeremy disputes accounts of Sheila’s extreme listlessness, which would obviously have some bearing on her ability to carry out the murders: ‘Ann Eaton and Robert Boutflour promoted the nonsense about Sheila’s slowness and lack of coordination – but no one else ever saw that, and I certainly never experienced Sheila acting in such a way.’
In fact, there are many such descriptions. Tora saw her friend every week that summer and remembers: ‘She was extremely tired and so weak. Normally she was a lively person but she really couldn’t function and was very aware of not wanting to be around the children in such a state. One day she asked, “Tora, can you help me?” I said, “In any way I can, Bambi, I will.” She told me, “I must get away from this doctor. He’s giving me medicine and I hate it. I’m not feeling right at all.” She wasn’t being listened to – decisions were made without her consideration. The change in Bambi was just huge.’
Dr Ferguson acknowledged that over-sedation was a possible side-effect of haloperidol and in extreme cases led to involuntary movements and drug-induced parkinsonism. In April, Sheila called him to complain that the injections were ‘flattening’ her. She visited her GP, who prescribed procyclidene twice daily to counter problems with muscles and joints movement. Despite her lethargy, she was also given a supply of Noctec, a nocturnal sedative. On 2 May she received another injection of haloperidol, together with a prescription for Triludan, an anti-histamine that was withdrawn from production seven years later following adverse reports about its effects on the heart.
-
Side effects of Haldol...
-
You're too obsessive about scientific data.
I'd rather believe the people who knew Sheila, other than Jeremy Bamber of course, and who witnessed her deteriorating medical condition in those last few weeks and days, than the test results of a couple of blood and tissue samples in a test tube or petri dish.
From Carol Ann Lee - The Murders At White House Farm...
In a 2013 letter, Jeremy disputes accounts of Sheila’s extreme listlessness, which would obviously have some bearing on her ability to carry out the murders: ‘Ann Eaton and Robert Boutflour promoted the nonsense about Sheila’s slowness and lack of coordination – but no one else ever saw that, and I certainly never experienced Sheila acting in such a way.’
In fact, there are many such descriptions. Tora saw her friend every week that summer and remembers: ‘She was extremely tired and so weak. Normally she was a lively person but she really couldn’t function and was very aware of not wanting to be around the children in such a state. One day she asked, “Tora, can you help me?” I said, “In any way I can, Bambi, I will.” She told me, “I must get away from this doctor. He’s giving me medicine and I hate it. I’m not feeling right at all.” She wasn’t being listened to – decisions were made without her consideration. The change in Bambi was just huge.’
Dr Ferguson acknowledged that over-sedation was a possible side-effect of haloperidol and in extreme cases led to involuntary movements and drug-induced parkinsonism. In April, Sheila called him to complain that the injections were ‘flattening’ her. She visited her GP, who prescribed procyclidene twice daily to counter problems with muscles and joints movement. Despite her lethargy, she was also given a supply of Noctec, a nocturnal sedative. On 2 May she received another injection of haloperidol, together with a prescription for Triludan, an anti-histamine that was withdrawn from production seven years later following adverse reports about its effects on the heart.
Why do you think Dr Vanezis said he held off completing his report pending toxicology reports? He wanted to know what the appropriately qualified person had to say about the level of halioperidol in SC's system ie a chemist. The opinions of a book author with a degree in history of art, SC's former husband, a Potter, her best friend and psychiatrist are irrelevant.
-
Why do you think Dr Vanezis said he held off completing his report pending toxicology reports? He wanted to know what the appropriately qualified person had to say about the level of halioperidol in SC's system ie a chemist. The opinions of a book author with a degree in history of art, SC's former husband, a Potter, her best friend and psychiatrist are irrelevant.
No they aren’t!
Nor are they to a jury
-
Side effects of Haldol...
SC was not over sedated based on toxicology tests:
http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/article-abstract/495707
The level detected in her blood was at the low end of medium.
-
SC was not over sedated based on toxicology tests:
http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/article-abstract/495707
The level detected in her blood was at the low end of medium.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=207.0;attach=751;image
-
SC was not over sedated based on toxicology tests:
http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/article-abstract/495707
The level detected in her blood was at the low end of medium.
You’re not a toxicologist neither are you a pathologist nor did you know SC or ever witness, as others did (who knew her well), how the medication affected her
-
Why do you think Dr Vanezis said he held off completing his report pending toxicology reports? He wanted to know what the appropriately qualified person had to say about the level of halioperidol in SC's system ie a chemist. The opinions of a book author with a degree in history of art, SC's former husband, a Potter, her best friend and psychiatrist are irrelevant.
No!... they are absolutely not. CC knew Sheila's condition much better in life than PV.
-
SC was not over sedated based on toxicology tests:
http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/article-abstract/495707 (http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/article-abstract/495707)
The level detected in her blood was at the low end of medium.
That doesn't include the accumulative effect in her brain when taken over a long period, but even so, there was at least enough Haloperidol in her circulatory system to show classic side-effect symptoms. That is... drowsiness, weakness, and muscle stiffness as evidenced by the way she was seen walking without deflection through a gaggle of geese in a farmyard.
-
No!... they are absolutely not. CC knew Sheila's condition much better in life than PV.
CC and SC separated shortly after the twins were born. By the time of the murders they were divorced.
A chemist is the appropriately qualified person to advise on the side effects of any medication and toxicity.
If CC was up to speed with what was going on why did he have to learn from his mother that the twins were having to get themselves ready for school in the morning and that they they felt SC never listened to them?
-
That doesn't include the accumulative effect in her brain when taken over a long period, but even so, there was at least enough Haloperidol in her circulatory system to show classic side-effect symptoms. That is... drowsiness, weakness, and muscle stiffness as evidenced by the way she was seen walking without deflection through a gaggle of geese in a farmyard.
What accumulative effect in the brain?
And who was the overseerer of this scientic 'walking thru geese' test?