UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Alleged Miscarriages of Justice => Jeremy Bamber and the callous murder of his father, mother, sister and twin nephews. Case effectively CLOSED by CCRC on basis of NO APPEAL REFERRAL. => Topic started by: Inspector Gadget on February 14, 2020, 12:07:07 PM
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It’s been alleged by a Bamber defence supporter that they can prove that the bike was not used due to the lack of tire tracks, the darkness of the route taken and the lack of witnesses. Has anybody seen such an official document that proves the bike could not be a means to get to and from the farm?
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It’s been alleged by a Bamber defence supporter that they can prove that the bike was not used due to the lack of tire tracks, the darkness of the route taken and the lack of witnesses. Has anybody seen such an official document that proves the bike could not be a means to get to and from the farm?
The allege lots of things.
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The allege lots of things.
Has anybody ever done the route? Is it possible by bike? In August I would imagine the ground being hard so wouldn’t expect any tire tracks. Also expect he would have gone via fields which are acres and acres wide so not sure where they would see anything. Would be like a needle in a haystack. And finally at 3am I wouldn’t expect to see any witnesses. I often am awake in middle of night, I often hear cars drive past but Does it mean I could tell you anything about them? No it does not! I cannot be bothered to get up and snoop out my windows waiting for people or cars to drive past....
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Has anybody ever done the route? Is it possible by bike? In August I would imagine the ground being hard so wouldn’t expect any tire tracks. Also expect he would have gone via fields which are acres and acres wide so not sure where they would see anything. Would be like a needle in a haystack. And finally at 3am I wouldn’t expect to see any witnesses. I often am awake in middle of night, I often hear cars drive past but Does it mean I could tell you anything about them? No it does not! I cannot be bothered to get up and snoop out my windows waiting for people or cars to drive past....
And all that's without the time lapse between the murders and when the police thought a bike may have been involved, and the number of people who may have either walked or cycled along the see wall/public footpath route.
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And all that's without the time lapse between the murders and when the police thought a bike may have been involved, and the number of people who may have either walked or cycled along the see wall/public footpath route.
Excellent point. Thank you
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Has anybody ever done the route? Is it possible by bike? In August I would imagine the ground being hard so wouldn’t expect any tire tracks. Also expect he would have gone via fields which are acres and acres wide so not sure where they would see anything. Would be like a needle in a haystack. And finally at 3am I wouldn’t expect to see any witnesses. I often am awake in middle of night, I often hear cars drive past but Does it mean I could tell you anything about them? No it does not! I cannot be bothered to get up and snoop out my windows waiting for people or cars to drive past....
Andrew Rigsby recently cycled what I think is the shortest (RED) route - a farm track, from the rear of WHF (East Coast Classics) to where it meets Maldon Road (B1026), then SW to Head Street, Goldhanger...
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Maldon+Rd,+Tolleshunt+D'Arcy,+Maldon/@51.7597757,0.7938588,959m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x47d8e1e2edb96115:0xde94bd3d46be2c01!8m2!3d51.7683123!4d0.7904089 (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Maldon+Rd,+Tolleshunt+D'Arcy,+Maldon/@51.7597757,0.7938588,959m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x47d8e1e2edb96115:0xde94bd3d46be2c01!8m2!3d51.7683123!4d0.7904089)
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.7621952,0.7839969,3a,90y,161.83h,71.45t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sM9BOIWbeif8oiTvJWiahog!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 (https://www.google.com/maps/@51.7621952,0.7839969,3a,90y,161.83h,71.45t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sM9BOIWbeif8oiTvJWiahog!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)
Scroll down to the bottom - "The route to White House Farm"...
http://gunfire-graffiti.co.uk/the-white-house-farm-murders-caffel-or-bamber/ (http://gunfire-graffiti.co.uk/the-white-house-farm-murders-caffel-or-bamber/)
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Andrew Rigsby recently cycled what I think is the shortest (RED) route - a farm track, from the rear of WHF (East Coast Classics) to where it meets Maldon Road (B1026), then SW to Head Street, Goldhanger...
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Maldon+Rd,+Tolleshunt+D'Arcy,+Maldon/@51.7597757,0.7938588,959m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x47d8e1e2edb96115:0xde94bd3d46be2c01!8m2!3d51.7683123!4d0.7904089 (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Maldon+Rd,+Tolleshunt+D'Arcy,+Maldon/@51.7597757,0.7938588,959m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x47d8e1e2edb96115:0xde94bd3d46be2c01!8m2!3d51.7683123!4d0.7904089)
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.7621952,0.7839969,3a,90y,161.83h,71.45t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sM9BOIWbeif8oiTvJWiahog!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 (https://www.google.com/maps/@51.7621952,0.7839969,3a,90y,161.83h,71.45t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sM9BOIWbeif8oiTvJWiahog!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)
Scroll down to the bottom - "The route to White House Farm"...
http://gunfire-graffiti.co.uk/the-white-house-farm-murders-caffel-or-bamber/ (http://gunfire-graffiti.co.uk/the-white-house-farm-murders-caffel-or-bamber/)
Brilliant, Myster. Thank you!
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Andrew Rigsby recently cycled what I think is the shortest (RED) route - a farm track, from the rear of WHF (East Coast Classics) to where it meets Maldon Road (B1026), then SW to Head Street, Goldhanger...
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Maldon+Rd,+Tolleshunt+D'Arcy,+Maldon/@51.7597757,0.7938588,959m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x47d8e1e2edb96115:0xde94bd3d46be2c01!8m2!3d51.7683123!4d0.7904089 (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Maldon+Rd,+Tolleshunt+D'Arcy,+Maldon/@51.7597757,0.7938588,959m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x47d8e1e2edb96115:0xde94bd3d46be2c01!8m2!3d51.7683123!4d0.7904089)
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.7621952,0.7839969,3a,90y,161.83h,71.45t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sM9BOIWbeif8oiTvJWiahog!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 (https://www.google.com/maps/@51.7621952,0.7839969,3a,90y,161.83h,71.45t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sM9BOIWbeif8oiTvJWiahog!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)
Scroll down to the bottom - "The route to White House Farm"...
http://gunfire-graffiti.co.uk/the-white-house-farm-murders-caffel-or-bamber/ (http://gunfire-graffiti.co.uk/the-white-house-farm-murders-caffel-or-bamber/)
Myster I have gone through this in detail now and this is one of the best blogs/ opinions to date. It doesn’t cover the phonecall nor the silencer but in terms of route, planning, capability and mental state it is the belief that I share. I too believed that he had pre loaded magazines on him, the idea of walking up and down stairs to reload just doesn’t sit right with me.
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It’s been alleged by a Bamber defence supporter that they can prove that the bike was not used due to the lack of tire tracks, the darkness of the route taken and the lack of witnesses. Has anybody seen such an official document that proves the bike could not be a means to get to and from the farm?
At trial jurors were told by the judge:
how he got there and out again whether by the kitchen window or any other means, though of interest, cannot affect the outcome of the case
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At trial jurors were told by the judge:
how he got there and out again whether by the kitchen window or any other means, though of interest, cannot affect the outcome of the case
Sure, but we can’t pretend it never happened. It is important to try and join dots to understand what went on that night to the best of our knowledge and things like this are excellent. All I was trying to understand is if the bike could have been used that night as pro Bamber people were telling me it was proven it COULDN’T which is clearly a lie. This experiment proves it so thanks to whoever it was that took the time to reconstruct the route. 👏🏻
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Sure, but we can’t pretend it never happened. It is important to try and join dots to understand what went on that night to the best of our knowledge and things like this are excellent. All I was trying to understand is if the bike could have been used that night as pro Bamber people were telling me it was proven it COULDN’T which is clearly a lie. This experiment proves it so thanks to whoever it was that took the time to reconstruct the route. 👏🏻
Like the phone call it can't be proved one way or the other.
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Like the phone call it can't be proved one way or the other.
Well no, as that was one of the key points of prosecution and they explained how he lied, in a court of law, and the jury accepted this evidence hence he was found guilty by a majority of 10-2. It was a clever attempt at an alibi I will give him that but ultimately was proven that he lied due to the line being open and his contradictory statements to police. Once he was caught lying his credibility was in tatters.
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Like the phone call it can't be proved one way or the other.
I agree, but it's no reason for 'allowing' him to be innocent when the balance of probabilities makes him guilty.
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I agree, but it's no reason for 'allowing' him to be innocent when the balance of probabilities makes him guilty.
You agree a phonecall can’t be proved one way or another? Well it was disproved based on the open phone line, the inability for NB to be able to speak plus one look at his police statements where he contradicted himself. That was enough proof for the jury who found his guilty 10-2 using this exact piece of evidence from the prosecution.
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You agree a phonecall can’t be proved one way or another? Well it was disproved based on the open phone line, the inability for NB to be able to speak plus one look at his police statements where he contradicted himself. That was enough proof for the jury who found his guilty 10-2 using this exact piece of evidence from the prosecution.
Well, it is possible that Nevill made the call before being shot, I don't believe the call took place but nevertheless it is an alternative view.
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Well, it is possible that Nevill made the call before being shot, I don't believe the call took place but nevertheless it is an alternative view.
I think had he been capable of making a call to anyone ... it would have been to the police.
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I think had he been capable of making a call to anyone ... it would have been to the police.
I think that's fair comment/
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Like the phone call it can't be proved one way or the other.
His own admission proves it.
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Going back to the question of did he use a bicycle, i'm sure he did but did they not find a speck of blood in his Astra?
If my memory serves it was a very tiny amount on the gear knob, and could well have had an innocent agricultural explanation.
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Going back to the question of did he use a bicycle, i'm sure he did but did they not find a speck of blood in his Astra?
If my memory serves it was a very tiny amount on the gear knob, and could well have had an innocent agricultural explanation.
Good point Steve, presumably they tested this having found it ? Do you recall the results? If he did make two calls then a car would be the only way he could get back and make them within 10mins but I just can’t see it. Especially as JM statement and the police found the bike at his.
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I don't think they did test it, it was such a tiny amount and easily explained as a nick, I suppose. Maybe Bamber didn't deny it and had an explanation.
Here is a link to a short thread on the matter, it was found in the citroen not the astra
Back in 2014, Scipio_usmc wrote :
I don't think either of the blood stains consisted of enough blood to make it clear it was related to the murder nor could it be determined whose blood it was so they are basically of no value evidence wise.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3857.msg144398#msg144398
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I think had he been capable of making a call to anyone ... it would have been to the police.
AS I said, I don't think the call happened but the notion that it couldn't have been on the basis that Nevill was injured doesn't take into account that it could have been made prior to injury.
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AS I said, I don't think the call happened but the notion that it couldn't have been on the basis that Nevill was injured doesn't take into account that it could have been made prior to injury.
I disagree as the notion that Sheila was going crazy with a gun would mean to assume that she hadn’t fired yet.
If she had fired then he would have dialled 999 rather than JB at 3am
If she hadn’t fired then he would have just disarmed her rather than waste time calling JB for sure.
It’s just common sense that he wouldn’t have called JB in either scenario.
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You agree a phonecall can’t be proved one way or another? Well it was disproved based on the open phone line, the inability for NB to be able to speak plus one look at his police statements where he contradicted himself. That was enough proof for the jury who found his guilty 10-2 using this exact piece of evidence from the prosecution.
You know that I do actually agree and I don't think such a call happened BUT it is not impossible that IF he called (which again, I don't think he did) it COULD have been prior to any injury. Of course it is common sense that he made no such call but that doesn't make it impossible. I'm being generous to the other side. 8((()*/
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I disagree as the notion that Sheila was going crazy with a gun would mean to assume that she hadn’t fired yet.
If she had fired then he would have dialled 999 rather than JB at 3am
If she hadn’t fired then he would have just disarmed her rather than waste time failing JB for sure.
It’s just common sense that he wouldn’t have called JB in either scenario.
Yes as head of the family he would have disarmed Sheila prior to any shots being fired.
If she had fired, he would have fought back straight away. The first two shots were close range, so he was close enough. No time to phone 999 or anyone else.
If he was going to the kitchen, it would have been to escape outside. Very unlikely he would do this and abandon his family if Sheila had the rifle. But very likely if Bamber had the rifle.
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You know that I do actually agree and I don't think such a call happened BUT it is not impossible that IF he called (which again, I don't think he did) it COULD have been prior to any injury. Of course it is common sense that he made no such call but that doesn't make it impossible. I'm being generous to the other side. 8((()*/
I hear you but where do you draw the line? It has to be presented to a jury in such a way that they can make a decision based on what the evidence suggests. The fact a phone had the handset off the hook means his statement that myster posted via soundcloud about the phone being engaged immediately means that it’s a lie anyway. It would have been an open line so regardless of when this phantom call was made it was proven to be a lie. He didn’t think it through properly. In additional to this handset evidence, the coincidence of the phone being moved from bedside to kitchen under magazines is another piece of circumstantial evidence that points to it being even less likely that NB made a call even before or after.
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I hear you but where do you draw the line? It has to be presented to a jury in such a way that they can make a decision based on what the evidence suggests. The fact a phone had the handset off the hook means his statement that myster posted via soundcloud about the phone being engaged immediately means that it’s a lie anyway. It would have been an open line so regardless of when this phantom call was made it was proven to be a lie. He didn’t think it through properly. In additional to this handset evidence, the coincidence of the phone being moved from bedside to kitchen under magazines is another piece of circumstantial evidence that points to it being even less likely that NB made a call even before or after.
Like I said, I agree with you. The phone call was one of the first things that made me suspicious of Bamber's innocence. Nevill never called Bamber that night.
I think Bamber left the phone off the hook in order that if rang, the caller would get the engaged tone, that way they would think Nevill was using the phone - hence - still alive. Unfortunately, he didn't know enough about the tones and tied himself in a knot with how the alleged call ended with Nevill.
Just to clear up someone points about the phones - the dial phone was from the bedroom. Bamber argued that the push button found in the rack was a 'spare' but I believe it was the kitchen phone.
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Yes Caroline it's curious the whole affair with the telephones. So the bedroom one was removed the day before and hidden until after the murders took place. When Nevill and June discovered it was missing their first reaction was the kids have hidden it. But the kids were asleep by then so the ticking off would have to wait for the morning. That's a dark, macabre angle in his planning if that was the case. Or, have I got the telephone swapping all wrong?
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Yes Caroline it's curious the whole affair with the telephones. So the bedroom one was removed the day before and hidden until after the murders took place. When Nevill and June discovered it was missing their first reaction was the kids have hidden it. But the kids were asleep by then so the ticking off would have to wait for the morning. That's a dark, macabre angle in his planning if that was the case. Or, have I got the telephone swapping all wrong?
The phone situation is quite complicated - the dial telephone was (according to the house keeper) usually in the bedroom. There was two phones in the kitchen; a cordless (which Nevill liked to use) and a push button (later found in the rack). On 5th August a Mr Pike collected the cordless phone as it has a problem with the ringer, this should have left the push button phone (as it was later found to be in full working order) in the kitchen and the dial phone in the bedroom. Someone brought the dial phone downstairs as put the push button in the rack. When it happened, is open to interpretation.
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The phone situation is quite complicated - the dial telephone was (according to the house keeper) usually in the bedroom. There was two phones in the kitchen; a cordless (which Nevill liked to use) and a push button (later found in the rack). On 5th August a Mr Pike collected the cordless phone as it has a problem with the ringer, this should have left the push button phone (as it was later found to be in full working order) in the kitchen and the dial phone in the bedroom. Someone brought the dial phone downstairs as put the push button in the rack. When it happened, is open to interpretation.
I see. The late Bob Woffenden cited this as the straw that broke the camels back and finally switched sides.
You can see how that bedroom telephone might thwart Jeremy's plans. On the other hand Nevill may have just got annoyed with having the old fashioned dial telephone in the bedroom, taken it downstairs and forgot to bring the digital one up. Odd that it had to happen that weekend though, another coincidence.
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I see. The late Bob Woffenden cited this as the straw that broke the camels back and finally switched sides.
You can see how that bedroom telephone might thwart Jeremy's plans. On the other hand Nevill may have just got annoyed with having the old fashioned dial telephone in the bedroom, taken it downstairs and forgot to bring the digital one up. Odd that it had to happen that weekend though, another coincidence.
It was the day before and yes, yet ANOTHER coincidence.
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It was the day before and yes, yet ANOTHER coincidence.
No it wasn't the day before ie Tues 6th, it was Monday 5th.
The cordless phone was damaged in a recent storm and the tel eng, Mr Pike, called to collect.
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I see. The late Bob Woffenden cited this as the straw that broke the camels back and finally switched sides.
You can see how that bedroom telephone might thwart Jeremy's plans. On the other hand Nevill may have just got annoyed with having the old fashioned dial telephone in the bedroom, taken it downstairs and forgot to bring the digital one up. Odd that it had to happen that weekend though, another coincidence.
The late Bob Woffenden's views are no more important than anyone else's. His reason for switching side is fatally flawed but since it relates to the phone call and this is the bike thread I'll take it to the phone thread!
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The late Bob Woffenden's views are no more important than anyone else's. His reason for switching side is fatally flawed but since it relates to the phone call and this is the bike thread I'll take it to the phone thread!
So he wasn't in the A team then? @)(++(*
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So he wasn't in the A team then? @)(++(*
Not insofar as he's not an expert in any relevant field and it's unlikely he ever had the knowledge of regular forum contributors based on his DM article.
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The late Bob Woffenden's views are no more important than anyone else's. His reason for switching side is fatally flawed but since it relates to the phone call and this is the bike thread I'll take it to the phone thread!
As a well known crime writer his opinion did carry more weight than yours or mine, though I agree it doesn't make him right. I disagreed with him bitterly over the Hanratty case, I was surprised when he eventually came to the correct conclusion regarding Bamber, citing the switched telephones as the last straw.
The switching of the telephones is interesting and nothing is certain. But as Caroline said, it goes down as yet ANOTHER coincidence
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No it wasn't the day before ie Tues 6th, it was Monday 5th.
The cordless phone was damaged in a recent storm and the tel eng, Mr Pike, called to collect.
The murders could have happened 6th or 7th and THAT particular phone wasn't damaged in the storm. That was replaced on 15th July, however, there was an issue with the ringer on the replacement and Pike purchased a second identical phone which had the same fault.
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Not insofar as he's not an expert in any relevant field and it's unlikely he ever had the knowledge of regular forum contributors based on his DM article.
Neither are you.
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Neither are you.
I was responding to Steve_trousers who spoke about BW as though he was some sort of authority.
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I was responding to Steve_trousers who spoke about BW as though he was some sort of authority.
I know, but it still stand that you're no expert either - none of us are so his opinion is as relevant as the rest of ours.
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Good point Steve, presumably they tested this having found it ? Do you recall the results? If he did make two calls then a car would be the only way he could get back and make them within 10mins but I just can’t see it. Especially as JM statement and the police found the bike at his.
Still strange to find even a speck, though...
Obviously not enough to prove anything
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As a well known crime writer his opinion did carry more weight than yours or mine, though I agree it doesn't make him right. I disagreed with him bitterly over the Hanratty case, I was surprised when he eventually came to the correct conclusion regarding Bamber, citing the switched telephones as the last straw.
The switching of the telephones is interesting and nothing is certain. But as Caroline said, it goes down as yet ANOTHER coincidence
I disagree entirely. He had no formal qualifications in subject matter relevant to the case so his opinions are no more, or less, valid than anyone who posts here.
A lot of people put themselves out there as authorities on crime eg BW, David James Smith and Mark Williams Thomas and I can honestly say, hand on heart, I've seen far better posts here re the cases they've written about:
JB
Jill Dando/BG
MM
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I know, but it still stand that you're no expert either - none of us are so his opinion is as relevant as the rest of ours.
That's what I said.