UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Alleged Miscarriages of Justice => Jeremy Bamber and the callous murder of his father, mother, sister and twin nephews. Case effectively CLOSED by CCRC on basis of NO APPEAL REFERRAL. => Topic started by: ISpyWithMyEye on May 02, 2020, 11:20:22 AM
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As Sheila had no experience of guns and had never used one in her life, coupled with the fact Jeremy Bamber obviously lied about leaving a loaded gun in the kitchen, if Sheila had really gone psychotic (which again, was impossible as she was dosed up with tranquillising Haloperidol, and Schizophrenics RARELY kill, nor have psychotic episodes when they’re medicated) but let’s suppose she had suddenly gone berserk, why didn’t she simply take a large carving knife from the kitchen, go upstairs and slit everyone’s throats as they slept — then slit her own?
Most family murders involve knives. They’re accessible, anyone can use them, you need no training, you don’t need a silencer, they're more reliable than aiming a long rifle you don’t know how to work, and quickly slitting someone’s throat and severing the jugular kills them almost immediately — and slitting your own throat too is far easier than trying to shoot yourself with a rifle that’s not much shorter than you are.
Surely someone having a psychosis attack who for some strange reason decided to kill everyone for no reason would use the easiest method?
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How much experience does someone need to aim a barrel at targets less than 2 feet away and pull a light trigger.
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How much experience does someone need to aim a barrel at targets less than 2 feet away and pull a light trigger.
The experience come from setting the rifle up in the first place.
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How much experience does someone need to aim a barrel at targets less than 2 feet away and pull a light trigger.
Sheila had flipped her lid remember, so explain how this complete berserker managed to load the magazine, fit it to the gun and successfully make every single one of the 25 shots reach their intended targets? Sure a modicum of experience was necessary for this amazing feat, in light of her obvious mental impairment?
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Sheila had flipped her lid remember, so explain how this complete berserker managed to load the magazine, fit it to the gun and successfully make every single one of the 25 shots reach their intended targets? Sure a modicum of experience was necessary for this amazing feat, in light of her obvious mental impairment?
...and reload the mag twice.
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...and reload the mag twice.
Given that Bamber had left the rifle near the wellington boots and the magazine on the settle, she also had to associate the two items, attach it and chamber a shot. She would then need to know how to remove the magazine in order to refill it. All this while in a state of psychosis. If we read Feddie's account of her last psychotic episode, she didn't even know when people were, let alone be able to take on performing a novel task.
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How much experience does someone need to aim a barrel at targets less than 2 feet away and pull a light trigger.
According to Jeremy he told police maybe Sheila may have seen a cowboy film when she was a child and learnt how to shoot by watching that 😌
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Sheila had flipped her lid remember, so explain how this complete berserker managed to load the magazine, fit it to the gun and successfully make every single one of the 25 shots reach their intended targets? Sure a modicum of experience was necessary for this amazing feat, in light of her obvious mental impairment?
Great point, VS.
Not to mention how weak and shaky she was....uncoordinated....and that the gun wasn’t just “left” on the kitchen worktop — Jeremy had it,
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Given that Bamber had left the rifle near the wellington boots and the magazine on the settle, she also had to associate the two items, attach it and chamber a shot. She would then need to know how to remove the magazine in order to refill it. All this while in a state of psychosis. If we read Feddie's account of her last psychotic episode, she didn't even know when people were, let alone be able to take on performing a novel task.
Exactly, Caroline.
And why would she have walked to the settle by the scullery door? The guns weren’t kept there. She had no NEED to walk down there.
Ahh, but in his second ws he said he left it in the KITCHEN. It must have occurred to him after making his first ws that the kitchen would be a better place for Sheila to find it....and he thought the police would “forget” what he first said. The arrogant tw*t
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Exactly, Caroline.
And why would she have walked to the settle by the scullery door? The guns weren’t kept there. She had no NEED to walk down there.
Ahh, but in his second ws he said he left it in the KITCHEN. It must have occurred to him after making his first ws that the kitchen would be a better place for Sheila to find it....and he thought the police would “forget” what he first said. The arrogant tw*t
As you weren't there you don't know though, do you? It's all guesswork.
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As you weren't there you don't know though, do you? It's all guesswork.
It’s been established in a court of law that Jeremy committed the murders. The evidence has been rigorously tested, placed in front of a jury and judges, including apoeal court judges on a further two occasions. I would suggest it is you doing the guessing around here.
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It’s been established in a court of law that Jeremy committed the murders. The evidence has been rigorously tested, placed in front of a jury and judges, including apoeal court judges on a further two occasions. I would suggest it is you doing the guessing around here.
Your description resembles all long running high profile MOJ's.
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It’s been established in a court of law that Jeremy committed the murders. The evidence has been rigorously tested, placed in front of a jury and judges, including apoeal court judges on a further two occasions. I would suggest it is you doing the guessing around here.
Was it established that Sheila "had no need to walk down there"? If not, then that's guesswork.
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The experience come from setting the rifle up in the first place.
Even if she had to seek out the rifle from the den, load an empty mag, attach the mag, lift the safety catch and chamber a round before pulling the trigger, where was the difficulty in any of this? One would have to suffer severe learning difficulties to struggle to operate a straightforward piece of equipment with so few moving parts.
My brother had an air rifle as a boy and insisted we had shooting competitions. I find it difficult to envisage a situation where JB/SC didn't do similar.
Most children like novelty hence 'I want a go'! 8(*(
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Was it established that Sheila "had no need to walk down there"? If not, then that's guesswork.
Was it established NB didn't empty the mag (apparently some cartridges had marks on them indicating they had been loaded on a previous occasion) put the rifle away in the den and SC made a conscious decision to seek it out?
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Even if she had to seek out the rifle from the den, load an empty mag, attach the mag, lift the safety catch and chamber a round before pulling the trigger, where was the difficulty in any of this? One would have to suffer severe learning difficulties to struggle to operate a straightforward piece of equipment with so few moving parts.
My brother had an air rifle as a boy and insisted we had shooting competitions. I find it difficult to envisage a situation where JB/SC didn't do similar.
Most children like novelty hence 'I want a go'! 8(*(
Sheila Caffell could have been messing with guns for years without others being aware.
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Was it established NB didn't empty the mag (apparently some cartridges had marks on them indicating they had been loaded on a previous occasion) put the rifle away in the den and SC made a conscious decision to seek it out?
It's all a matter of opinion.
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Your description resembles all long running high profile MOJ's.
Really? Name one.
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Was it established that Sheila "had no need to walk down there"? If not, then that's guesswork.
Why don’t you tell that to Holly when she expounds on her theories, eh?
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Sheila Caffell could have been messing with guns for years without others being aware.
Speculation, guesswork, zero evidence for it.
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Even if she had to seek out the rifle from the den, load an empty mag, attach the mag, lift the safety catch and chamber a round before pulling the trigger, where was the difficulty in any of this? One would have to suffer severe learning difficulties to struggle to operate a straightforward piece of equipment with so few moving parts.
My brother had an air rifle as a boy and insisted we had shooting competitions. I find it difficult to envisage a situation where JB/SC didn't do similar.
Most children like novelty hence 'I want a go'! 8(*(
Wow!... so your family have some connection with Malcolm Fletcher after all!
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Even if she had to seek out the rifle from the den, load an empty mag, attach the mag, lift the safety catch and chamber a round before pulling the trigger, where was the difficulty in any of this? One would have to suffer severe learning difficulties to struggle to operate a straightforward piece of equipment with so few moving parts.
My brother had an air rifle as a boy and insisted we had shooting competitions. I find it difficult to envisage a situation where JB/SC didn't do similar.
Most children like novelty hence 'I want a go'! 8(*(
Guesswork.
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Was it established NB didn't empty the mag (apparently some cartridges had marks on them indicating they had been loaded on a previous occasion) put the rifle away in the den and SC made a conscious decision to seek it out?
She was able to make conscious decisions whilst simultaneously deranged? Interesting.
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How come those who believe SC could not be responsible on the basis she did not know how to operate the rifle and yet think it OK that the ballistics expert at trial rold the court his relevant experience included "a small amount of experience of having an air rifle as a small boy".
SC grew up on a farm with a brother as an only sibling and a dad where firearms were considered routine and every day items.
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She was able to make conscious decisions whilst simultaneously deranged? Interesting.
Who said she was deranged?
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Why don’t you tell that to Holly when she expounds on her theories, eh?
What can be ruled out?
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Who said she was deranged?
What was she then? Of sound mind? How did the deeply honest Brother describe her to police?
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As you weren't there you don't know though, do you? It's all guesswork.
You weren’t there, either — but you claim Sheila locked herself in the bathroom with the rifle 🙄
I’m CALCULATING what occurred going by the EVIDENCE. I’m not dreaming up ludicrous fairytales to suit my agenda
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What can be ruled out?
As much as can be ruled out in the comment ISpy made that started this.
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How come those who believe SC could not be responsible on the basis she did not know how to operate the rifle and yet think it OK that the ballistics expert at trial rold the court his relevant experience included "a small amount of experience of having an air rifle as a small boy".
SC grew up on a farm with a brother as an only sibling and a dad where firearms were considered routine and every day items.
By his OWN admission he loaded the gun to go shoot rabbits so we KNOW he could do this. Sheesh. What evidence exists for Sheila doing likewise?
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Was it established that Sheila "had no need to walk down there"? If not, then that's guesswork.
So she couldn’t have got the gun then, could she?
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Really? Name one.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3394.msg129016#msg129016
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How come those who believe SC could not be responsible on the basis she did not know how to operate the rifle and yet think it OK that the ballistics expert at trial rold the court his relevant experience included "a small amount of experience of having an air rifle as a small boy".
SC grew up on a farm with a brother as an only sibling and a dad where firearms were considered routine and every day items.
Sheila grew up on a farm but couldn’t drive a tractor, either...
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Who said she was deranged?
Your crush, Holly...Jeremy Bamber
He said she’d gone berserk, which is deranged.
So are you now saying Sheila WASN’T deranged/psychotic — she simply wanted to kill them all out of pure evilness? It sounds that way, so why do you say in your bio you’re seeking justice for her?
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By his OWN admission he loaded the gun to go shoot rabbits so we KNOW he could do this. Sheesh. What evidence exists for Sheila doing likewise?
SC was diagnosed with a mental illness. There's no evidence she suffered learning difficulties. She lived independently and operated a range of equipment over the years from domestic appliances to baby/childcare equipment some of which have far more moving parts and are far heavier than the rifle.
Consider operating a twin buggy v operating the rifle.
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http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3394.msg129016#msg129016
How many of those cases had at least two failed appeals before being declared mojs?
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Sheila grew up on a farm but couldn’t drive a tractor, either...
She didn't take formal driving lessons/possess a driving licence but I've no idea what farm machinery she had a go on as a child.
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SC was diagnosed with a mental illness. There's no evidence she suffered learning difficulties. She lived independently and operated a range of equipment over the years from domestic appliances to baby/childcare equipment some of which have far more moving parts and are far heavier than the rifle.
Consider operating a twin buggy v operating the rifle.
@)(++(*. that really is hilarious, sorry.
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You weren’t there, either — but you claim Sheila locked herself in the bathroom with the rifle 🙄
I’m CALCULATING what occurred going by the EVIDENCE. I’m not dreaming up ludicrous fairytales to suit my agenda
No I don't. Offering something as a possibility and offering something as a fact are two different things.
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No I don't. Offering something as a possibility and offering something as a fact are two different things.
You don’t do speculation, remember?
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Sheila grew up on a farm but couldn’t drive a tractor, either...
Cite.
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@)(++(*. that really is hilarious, sorry.
Why?
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Your crush, Holly...Jeremy Bamber
He said she’d gone berserk, which is deranged.
So are you now saying Sheila WASN’T deranged/psychotic — she simply wanted to kill them all out of pure evilness? It sounds that way, so why do you say in your bio you’re seeking justice for her?
I have always maintained SC suffered a 'disorganised attachmeny' but that's really for a separate thread.
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SC was diagnosed with a mental illness. There's no evidence she suffered learning difficulties. She lived independently and operated a range of equipment over the years from domestic appliances to baby/childcare equipment some of which have far more moving parts and are far heavier than the rifle.
Consider operating a twin buggy v operating the rifle.
The first, she'd have learned rote fashion. She was doing it on a daily basis. There was a need. I don't recall anyone talking about her interest in guns being such that she practiced at every given opportunity.
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Why?
It’s just a ridiculous comparison- if Sheila had a twin buggy she would have had years of experience of using it, may well have struggled with it too for all we know (I used to struggle with the single buggy on occasion, b........ thing) compared to moments to get her head around loading a magazine, fitting it to a lethal weapon and then pointing said lethal weapon at her nearest and dearest and effectively pumping them all full of lead.
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Given that Bamber had left the rifle near the wellington boots and the magazine on the settle, she also had to associate the two items, attach it and chamber a shot. She would then need to know how to remove the magazine in order to refill it. All this while in a state of psychosis. If we read Feddie's account of her last psychotic episode, she didn't even know when people were, let alone be able to take on performing a novel task.
Freddie also stated the ranting and raving stopped as quickly as it started with periods of calm where SC brushed her hair before the ranting and raving resumed.
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She didn't take formal driving lessons/possess a driving licence but I've no idea what farm machinery she had a go on as a child.
Feasible that with her apparent lack of interest in thing mechanical, she didn't.
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Freddie also stated the ranting and raving stopped as quickly as it started with periods of calm where SC brushed her hair before the ranting and raving resumed.
So she was calm when she went on her murder spree, in your view?
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Freddie also stated the ranting and raving stopped as quickly as it started with periods of calm where SC brushed her hair before the ranting and raving resumed.
This, of course, was prior to her admission to hospital, so prior to her being adequately medicated.
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The first, she'd have learned rote fashion. She was doing it on a daily basis. There was a need. I don't recall anyone talking about her interest in guns being such that she practiced at every given opportunity.
I always thought that as the gun was quite new and Sheila had probably not even seen it before, it was quite convenient that Jeremy gave her a demonstration by loading it in front of her!
I also thought it a coincidence that, if she had been looking for a gun, she chose that one too! There were plenty to choose from that she may have been more familiar with. A shotgun would have got the job done, but she picked up the 2.2 and then decided it needed a silencer!
Has JB ever expressed any regret over this btw? .."If only I hadn't left that gun out..." - Most people would feel some responsibility and guilt for their part in a massacre.
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I don't shoot, but I've shot with a .22 rifle as has anyone who has used the ranges at the fairground in the 1960's.
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I always thought that as the gun was quite new and Sheila had probably not even seen it before, it was quite convenient that Jeremy gave her a demonstration by loading it in front of her!
I also thought it a coincidence that, if she had been looking for a gun, she chose that one too! There were plenty to choose from that she may have been more familiar with. A shotgun would have got the job done, but she picked up the 2.2 and then decided it needed a silencer!
Has JB ever expressed any regret over this btw? .."If only I hadn't left that gun out..." - Most people would feel some responsibility and guilt for their part in a massacre.
I'm not certain of the time-line, but I think said gun had only been purchased the previous November. Sheila didn't visit the farm over Christmas because she was unwell -I suspect she was building up to the breakdown- so quite when she'd have been at the farm and well enough to take instructions on something which held no interest for her, is anyone's guess.
"That" gun was conveniently there, asking to be picked up by anyone in murderous rage.
For most of us, it would have played on our minds for the rest of our lives. I don't know if Jeremy has ever received counselling to try to work through his guilt, regarding it, but to my knowledge, self recrimination hasn't figured large.
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I always thought that as the gun was quite new and Sheila had probably not even seen it before, it was quite convenient that Jeremy gave her a demonstration by loading it in front of her!
I also thought it a coincidence that, if she had been looking for a gun, she chose that one too! There were plenty to choose from that she may have been more familiar with. A shotgun would have got the job done, but she picked up the 2.2 and then decided it needed a silencer!
Has JB ever expressed any regret over this btw? .."If only I hadn't left that gun out..." - Most people would feel some responsibility and guilt for their part in a massacre.
I wonder why Bamber never pre-loaded two shotguns. The .22 obviously proved effective, but it's not the logical choice. Surely the 'Sheila's gone berserk' narrative stands up with shotguns too?
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I wonder why Bamber never pre-loaded two shotguns. The .22 obviously proved effective, but it's not the logical choice. Surely the 'Sheila's gone berserk' narrative stands up with shotguns too?
A twelve bore if not held properly can give a nasty kick,not sure how competent Sheila would have been for the narrative of using one of those.
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It’s just a ridiculous comparison- if Sheila had a twin buggy she would have had years of experience of using it, may well have struggled with it too for all we know (I used to struggle with the single buggy on occasion, b........ thing) compared to moments to get her head around loading a magazine, fitting it to a lethal weapon and then pointing said lethal weapon at her nearest and dearest and effectively pumping them all full of lead.
I think people in the UK perceive the rifle as complex as to most its infamiliar. In the US where firearms are everyday items they perceive it differently.
I honestly can't see what is remotely complex about it. I gave the example of a twin buggy because they are far more complex to operate than the rifle with far more moving parts and much heavier.
What is remotely complex about loading the mag, attaching it to the rifle, pulling back on the lever and then the trigger
https://youtu.be/b6I8lgiagFU
Where is the complexity/skill in preparing the weapon for fire?
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A twelve bore if not held properly cab give a nasty kick,not sure how competent Sheila would have been for the narrative of using one of those.
True.
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I think people in the UK perceive the rifle as complex as to most its infamiliar. In the US where firearms are everyday items they perceive it differently.
I honestly can't see what is remotely complex about it. I gave the example of a twin buggy because they are far more complex to operate than the rifle with far more moving parts and much heavier.
What is remotely complex about loading the mag, attaching it to the rifle, pulling back on the lever and then the trigger
https://youtu.be/b6I8lgiagFU
Where is the complexity/skill in preparing the weapon for fire?
That's your frame of reference. You have the interest/dexterity/curiosity to attempt and accomplish certain tasks. I imagine Sheila to have been as far removed from you as is chalk from cheese.
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I think people in the UK perceive the rifle as complex as to most its infamiliar. In the US where firearms are everyday items they perceive it differently.
I honestly can't see what is remotely complex about it. I gave the example of a twin buggy because they are far more complex to operate than the rifle with far more moving parts and much heavier.
What is remotely complex about loading the mag, attaching it to the rifle, pulling back on the lever and then the trigger
https://youtu.be/b6I8lgiagFU
Where is the complexity/skill in preparing the weapon for fire?
While Nevill is fighting for his life,pretty tough I'd venture.
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That's your frame of reference. You have the interest/dexterity/curiosity to attempt and accomplish certain tasks. I imagine Sheila to have been as far removed from you as is chalk from cheese.
You haven't factored in motivation.
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While Nevill is fighting for his life,pretty tough I'd venture.
NB was already near death before the magazine needed refilling.
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So she was calm when she went on her murder spree, in your view?
Clearly the mind was severely disturbed but I don't believe this would preclude someone from refilling the mag and pulling the trigger.
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NB was already near death before the magazine needed refilling.
Which is when I believe Bamber additionally subdued him with the beating. Once he'd beat him senseless he had a window of opportunity to reload.
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You haven't factored in motivation.
Ha! For you, Holly, I think it might be a determination to not being beaten!! I fail to see what Sheila's might have been, given that she was adequately medicated, so wouldn't be experiencing those thoughts responsible for her previous breakdowns, during which, the only person she'd turned on, was herself.
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I think people in the UK perceive the rifle as complex as to most its infamiliar. In the US where firearms are everyday items they perceive it differently.
I honestly can't see what is remotely complex about it. I gave the example of a twin buggy because they are far more complex to operate than the rifle with far more moving parts and much heavier.
What is remotely complex about loading the mag, attaching it to the rifle, pulling back on the lever and then the trigger
https://youtu.be/b6I8lgiagFU
Where is the complexity/skill in preparing the weapon for fire?
You’ve never fired a fully loaded rifle, Holly
You just went into a gun shop and asked to if you could load it, and the man allowed you to. With all due respect, you have no experience of shooting whatsoever, so you’re not qualified to say how difficult it would have been for Sheila — especially as she couldn’t focus well; was shaky; lacked coordination; and was so stiff due to her medication she walked like a slow zombie.
You complain about the ballistics expert at the trial “only” having 13 years experience, but you’ve got NONE.
Anyway, we know Sheila wasn’t the killer, it was Jeremy. And what’s more, he never left thta gun out, I don’t believe it.
He hid it.
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I don't shoot, but I've shot with a .22 rifle as has anyone who has used the ranges at the fairground in the 1960's.
That would have been an air-rifle firing tiny lead pellets, not a semi-auto using propellant-driven cartridges... far too dangerous at any Silcocks fairground.
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I think people in the UK perceive the rifle as complex as to most its infamiliar. In the US where firearms are everyday items they perceive it differently.
I honestly can't see what is remotely complex about it. I gave the example of a twin buggy because they are far more complex to operate than the rifle with far more moving parts and much heavier.
What is remotely complex about loading the mag, attaching it to the rifle, pulling back on the lever and then the trigger
https://youtu.be/b6I8lgiagFU
Where is the complexity/skill in preparing the weapon for fire?
It's not that complex, even for a novice who was only given a practical demonstration a few hours before but you conveniently forget that after loading the rifle, she goes off, finds and attaches the silencer in her deranged state of mind.
It's also worth noting that there is a knack to pulling back the lever - You have to pull it back and let go. Bamber surely didn't chamber a round in a kitchen with 3 other people in it. MF broke a nail when he was testing it.
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NB was already near death before the magazine needed refilling.
You know that because?
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I think people in the UK perceive the rifle as complex as to most its infamiliar. In the US where firearms are everyday items they perceive it differently.
I honestly can't see what is remotely complex about it. I gave the example of a twin buggy because they are far more complex to operate than the rifle with far more moving parts and much heavier.
What is remotely complex about loading the mag, attaching it to the rifle, pulling back on the lever and then the trigger
https://youtu.be/b6I8lgiagFU
Where is the complexity/skill in preparing the weapon for fire?
If I had never loaded a gun before I would not want to attempt to do so without guidance for fear of the whole thing blowing up in my face. Maybe as she was allegedly suicidal she didn’t care if that happened or not.
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Clearly the mind was severely disturbed but I don't believe this would preclude someone from refilling the mag and pulling the trigger.
You seem to want it both ways - calm, yet deranged.
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I don't shoot, but I've shot with a .22 rifle as has anyone who has used the ranges at the fairground in the 1960's.
Did you have to fill a magazine with live ammunition and attach it to the gun first, out if interest?
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If I had never loaded a gun before I would not want to attempt to do so without guidance for fear of the whole thing blowing up in my face. Maybe as she was allegedly suicidal she didn’t care if that happened or not.
Good point. And if Bamber's narrative is to be believed, then surely Sheila, having struggled to dispatch her parents with multiple shots (mercifully the sleeping twins may have met a swift end), why would she then consider the .22 rifle adequate to kill herself with a single shot?
Yes, Bamber had the seeming presence of mind to go for the fleshy part under the chin to stage his scene - and even that didn't work first time, which must have been much to his chagrin, blowing a hole in his story (no pun intended).
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Did you have to fill a magazine with live ammunition and attach it to the gun first, out if interest?
Most don't need to be full. You could add a few rounds if the spring is doing it's job. Didn't CAL's book refer to him only partially reloading at one point?
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Freddie also stated the ranting and raving stopped as quickly as it started with periods of calm where SC brushed her hair before the ranting and raving resumed.
OK, so equate calm and brushing her hair with loading a rifle and shooting the whole family, how is that calm? Speechless!
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Most don't need to be full. You could add a few rounds if the spring is doing it's job. Didn't CAL's book refer to him only partially reloading at one point?
I don’t know, my point wasn’t whether or not G-Unit had to completely fill the magazine with bullets when she was at the funfair but whether she had to do it at all. She seems to be trying to make out that loading and firing an Anschutz is something that most people of a certain age would be familiar with, which is patently ballcocks of the first order, IMO.
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Sheila Caffell could have been messing with guns for years without others being aware.
As opposed to Bamber who we KNOW 'messed with them'? You can't see that you're making excuses.
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OK, so equate calm and brushing her hair with loading a rifle and shooting the whole family, how is that calm? Speechless!
And beating Daddy to a pulp, calmly.
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I don’t know, my point wasn’t whether or not G-Unit had to completely fill the magazine with bullets when she was at the funfair but whether she had to do it at all. She seems to be trying to make out that loading and firing an Anschutz is something that most people of a certain age would be familiar with, which is patently ballcocks of the first order, IMO.
Those one's at the fairground have a load of lead shot fed in to them - not .22 rounds.
So it's not the same and the rifle is not even close to being the same.
Bloody rip off those games too.....
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That would have been an air-rifle firing tiny lead pellets, not a semi-auto using propellant-driven cartridges... far too dangerous at any Silcocks fairground.
They used .22 rifles and were exempt from holding firearms certificates for them.
1982;
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Elton) My Lords, Section 11(4) of the Firearms Act 1968 permits a person conducting or carrying on a shooting gallery at which only air weapons or miniature rifles not exceeding .23 calibre are used, to acquire and possess such rifles and their ammunition, without holding a firearm certificate. It is not necessary to hold a certificate to use an exempted rifle at a shooting gallery. We are not persuaded that the removal of this exemption would be justified at present, but the position will be kept under review.
https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1982/may/04/shooting-gallery-rifles-control
Whilst there is no legal definition of a miniature rifle (other than one which does not exceed . 23” in calibre), it is generally accepted that this refers only to rifles firing . 22 rimfire cartridges.
https://www.guntradenews.com/comment/legal/legal-small-bore-and-the-law/
https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1982/may/04/shooting-gallery-rifles-control
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OK, so equate calm and brushing her hair with loading a rifle and shooting the whole family, how is that calm? Speechless!
Perhaps she was in a period of calm and brushing her hair when Nevill decided to call JB instead of disarming her? *%87
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As opposed to Bamber who we KNOW 'messed with them'? You can't see that you're making excuses.
We know that Jeremy Bamber shot at school. We also know he shot Anthony Pargeter's rifle. We know that he and his father took the Anchutz out in July, but not if they fired it. We're not sure if he fired in on 6th August. Anything else?
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They used .22 rifles and were exempt from holding firearms certificates for them.
1982;
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Elton) My Lords, Section 11(4) of the Firearms Act 1968 permits a person conducting or carrying on a shooting gallery at which only air weapons or miniature rifles not exceeding .23 calibre are used, to acquire and possess such rifles and their ammunition, without holding a firearm certificate. It is not necessary to hold a certificate to use an exempted rifle at a shooting gallery. We are not persuaded that the removal of this exemption would be justified at present, but the position will be kept under review.
https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1982/may/04/shooting-gallery-rifles-control
Whilst there is no legal definition of a miniature rifle (other than one which does not exceed . 23” in calibre), it is generally accepted that this refers only to rifles firing . 22 rimfire cartridges.
https://www.guntradenews.com/comment/legal/legal-small-bore-and-the-law/
https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1982/may/04/shooting-gallery-rifles-control
Are you suggesting that it would have been possible to shoot someone dead at the fairground with one of those guns in the 1960s?
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We know that Jeremy Bamber shot at school. We also know he shot Anthony Pargeter's rifle. We know that he and his father took the Anchutz out in July, but not if they fired it. We're not sure if he fired in on 6th August. Anything else?
We know that he loaded it on the evening of the murders and went outside with it with the intention of using it, unless you think he’s lying?
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Are you suggesting that it would have been possible to shoot someone dead at the fairground with one of those guns in the 1960s?
Looks like it;
On 24 July 1965, Mills was found dead in his car, parked in Goslett Yard, off an alleyway behind his nightclub.[97] A fairground rifle was found in the car with Mills, who had been shot through his right eye. He had told the nightclub staff that he was going for a nap in his car, something that he often did.[98] His body was found at approximately 11:45 p.m. by doorman Robert Deacon. An ambulance was not called until Mills's wife arrived over an hour later.[99] A week or two previously, he had borrowed a 0.22 calibre rifle from May Ronaldson, whom he knew from his boxing booth days, and who ran a shooting gallery.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freddie_Mills#Death
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Perhaps she was in a period of calm and brushing her hair when Nevill decided to call JB instead of disarming her? *%87
Perhaps, but the raving that Freddie mentioned doesn't equate to her being able to set up the rifle - it took a certain amount of thinking to attach the mag, not something you could do in the state described by Freddie.
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We know that Jeremy Bamber shot at school. We also know he shot Anthony Pargeter's rifle. We know that he and his father took the Anchutz out in July, but not if they fired it. We're not sure if he fired in on 6th August. Anything else?
Are you serious?
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Looks like it;
On 24 July 1965, Mills was found dead in his car, parked in Goslett Yard, off an alleyway behind his nightclub.[97] A fairground rifle was found in the car with Mills, who had been shot through his right eye. He had told the nightclub staff that he was going for a nap in his car, something that he often did.[98] His body was found at approximately 11:45 p.m. by doorman Robert Deacon. An ambulance was not called until Mills's wife arrived over an hour later.[99] A week or two previously, he had borrowed a 0.22 calibre rifle from May Ronaldson, whom he knew from his boxing booth days, and who ran a shooting gallery.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freddie_Mills#Death
You seem to be making a big assumption there not that this has anything whatosever to do with any point you've been struggling to make.
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Looks like it;
On 24 July 1965, Mills was found dead in his car, parked in Goslett Yard, off an alleyway behind his nightclub.[97] A fairground rifle was found in the car with Mills, who had been shot through his right eye. He had told the nightclub staff that he was going for a nap in his car, something that he often did.[98] His body was found at approximately 11:45 p.m. by doorman Robert Deacon. An ambulance was not called until Mills's wife arrived over an hour later.[99] A week or two previously, he had borrowed a 0.22 calibre rifle from May Ronaldson, whom he knew from his boxing booth days, and who ran a shooting gallery.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freddie_Mills#Death
This is kind of off topic but that doesn't mean that the rifle used was from the shooting gallery.
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Perhaps, but the raving that Freddie mentioned doesn't equate to her being able to set up the rifle - it took a certain amount of thinking to attach the mag, not something you could do in the state described by Freddie.
Sorry, yes I missed your point.. impossible to equate the two.
The CT like to say that Freddies evidence would have swayed the jury but I imagine someone as skilled as Arlidge would have demonstrated that SCs past episodes actually go some way to disproving she was capable of a sustained and focused period of violence.
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You seem to be making a big assumption there not that this has anything whatosever to do with any point you've been struggling to make.
My point was that I've shot a .22 rifle without any training at all. If I can so can others.
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My point was that I've shot a .22 rifle without any training at all. If I can so can others.
Did you have to load bullets into the magazine and fix it to the gun first?
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My point was that I've shot a .22 rifle without any training at all. If I can so can others.
Quite right. They aren't difficult.
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Quite right. They aren't difficult.
G-Unit being handed a pre-loaded rifle at a funfair and being able to shoot at tin ducks by squeezing the trigger does not mean that a person unfamiliar with handling a rifle, loading its magazine and fixing it to the gun before turning it on members of their own family would find such a task quite as easy.
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G-Unit being handed a pre-loaded rifle at a funfair and being able to shoot at tin ducks by squeezing the trigger does not mean that a person unfamiliar with handling a rifle, loading its magazine and fixing it to the gun before turning it on members of their own family would find such a task quite as easy.
Can you prove that the person being discussed was unable to carry out these tasks?
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Had the murders/suicide taken place in the US it would have been treated differently as gun ownership is so widespread.
Toddlers often pick up firearms and shoot themselves and others.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/09/29/american-toddlers-are-still-shooting-people-on-a-weekly-basis-this-year/
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My point was that I've shot a .22 rifle without any training at all. If I can so can others.
Were you having a psychotic attack at the time?
Did you have to attach the magazine and chamber the first shot without being told?
Anyone can fire one - that's not the issue.
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Can you prove that the person being discussed was unable to carry out these tasks?
Anything anyone posted would just be excused away - what's the point? There are some people who are genuinely on tje fence and are able to view the case from both sides. I haven't seen you do that and I don't believe there is anything anyone can say that will sway you from Bambers side and that's fair enough but it is helpful to know where people sit on the guilt innocense scale.
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https://youtu.be/JrPq6xao0dE
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https://youtu.be/JrPq6xao0dE
For starters that kid has been shown and instructed on how to use the rifle obviously!
Where's the psychosis? Where is the magazine and when did she chamber the first shot and moreover - how is this a novel exercise in a stressful moment? Again Holly, this isn't like for like!
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For starters that kid has been shown and instructed on how to use the rifle obviously!
Where's the psychosis? Where is the magazine and when did she chamber the first shot and moreover - how is this a novel exercise in a stressful moment? Again Holly, this isn't like for like!
Half the time her dad is guiding her hand! @)(++(*
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Can you prove that the person being discussed was unable to carry out these tasks?
I don’t need to, she didn’t do it. How about you try and prove she did? Over to you.
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Half the time her dad is guiding her hand! @)(++(*
And you don't think NB would have done the same with SC?
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And you don't think NB would have done the same with SC?
What? While she’s shooting at him?!
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sylvia_Seegrist
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And you don't think NB would have done the same with SC?
Not if she wasn't interested.
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And you don't think NB would have done the same with SC?
Eh?
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And you don't think NB would have done the same with SC?
It did cross my mind to wonder why Nevill would have assisted Sheila to shoot him @)(++(*
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sylvia_Seegrist
And?
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When did Nevill show Sheila how to the the .22? In the interim time between buying the rifle and the murders occurring - in between Sheila was ill. So how and even why would Nevill believe that rifle instruction would be just the thing? Fact is, there is no evidence whatsoever that was shown how to use the rifle but innocent supports need to get that rifle in her hand and make it a familiar object. Not succeeding I'm afraid!
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When did Nevill show Sheila how to the the .22? In the interim time between buying the rifle and the murders occurring - in between Sheila was ill. So how and even why would Nevill believe that rifle instruction would be just the thing? Fact is, there is no evidence whatsoever that was shown how to use the rifle but innocent supports need to get that rifle in her hand and make it a familiar object. Not succeeding I'm afraid!
My dad taught me how to drive in my very own mini 1275 gt but noone has taught me to drive all the cars I've driven since.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sylvia_Seegrist
I believe David has used this example but the woman wasn't taking her meds and she was familiar with guns having spent some (although brief) time in the military. Nice try - no cigar
https://deadlywomen.fandom.com/wiki/Sylvia_Seegrist
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My dad taught me how to drive in my very own mini 1275 gt but noone has taught me to drive all the cars I've driven since.
One assumes you'd wanted to learn, or did you give up as soon as you passed your test?
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And?
And someone who went from doing normal stuff like working out in a gym and driving to a shopping mall to opening fire on innocent by-standers. Why? Because her family made her feel nervous and her mother wanted to put her in a home.
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My dad taught me how to drive in my very own mini 1275 gt but noone has taught me to drive all the cars I've driven since.
They didn't need to because you were familiar with driving - Sheila was not familiar with guns and you have no evidence to prove she was. It's just made up.
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And someone who went from doing normal stuff like working out in a gym and driving to a shopping mall to opening fire on innocent by-standers. Why? Because her family made her feel nervous and her mother wanted to put her in a home.
Who wasn't taking her meds!
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And someone who went from doing normal stuff like working out in a gym and driving to a shopping mall to opening fire on innocent by-standers. Why? Because her family made her feel nervous and her mother wanted to put her in a home.
And?
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One assumes you'd wanted to learn, or did you give up as soon as you passed your test?
Couldn't wait. I had the car before I was 17. Had a lesson om my 17th birthday and applied for my test too. You had to wait till your 17th birthday to apply. Past first time and there was no stopping me roaring around in my liitle red mini 1275 gt 8(>((
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For the benefit of this thread, I have complied this handy spreadsheet:
1) Sheila - not proficient or interested in guns. Shaky and uncoordinated at the best of times.
2) Jeremy - experienced and proficient with guns. Had previously expressed a desire to kill his family.
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You know that because?
I read the pathology report.
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Couldn't wait. I had the car before I was 17. Had a lesson om my 17th birthday and applied for my test too. You had to wait till your 17th birthday to apply. Past first time and there was no stopping me roaring around in my liitle red mini 1275 gt 8(>((
How very different Sheila's life might have been had she had a fraction your confidence.
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I read the pathology report.
So have most but it doesn't tell you that.
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My dad taught me how to drive in my very own mini 1275 gt but noone has taught me to drive all the cars I've driven since.
Did you need to be,from learning to ride a bike I progressed up to a 1000 cc motorbike with out lessons.
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How very different Sheila's life might have been had she had a fraction your confidence.
Or Jeremy's.
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And beating Daddy to a pulp, calmly.
Where in the pathology report does it mention this?
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Where in the pathology report does it mention this?
Is it true or false that Nevill had a head injury sustained from being hit by an object that left part of his brain exposed? Is it true or false that he had lacerations to his nose and two black eyes?
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http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=199.0;attach=681;image (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=199.0;attach=681;image)
Page 8 of the pathology report tells of a severe beating to the head - unfortunately I don’t know how to post it so that it’s legible. I would say “beaten to a pulp” was a fair description.
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http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=199.0;attach=681;image
Page 8 of the pathology report tells of a severe beating to the head - unfortunately I don’t know how to post it so that it’s legible. I would say “beaten to a pulp” was a fair description.
And indignantly requesting to be shown, where it says in the pathology report, that Nevill was "beaten to a pulp", does NOT render the attack less vicious, NOR leave his brain less exposed as a result of it.
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And indignantly requesting to be shown, where it says in the pathology report, that Nevill was "beaten to a pulp", does NOT render the attack less vicious, NOR leave his brain less exposed as a result of it.
I expect we will be required to examine the dictionary definition of “pulp” next in some silly semantic quibble.
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I expect we will be required to examine the dictionary definition of “pulp” next in some silly semantic quibble.
I imagine that "a soft, wet, shapeless piece of material" could adequately describe a brain exposed by the skull being smashed/
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And indignantly requesting to be shown, where it says in the pathology report, that Nevill was "beaten to a pulp", does NOT render the attack less vicious, NOR leave his brain less exposed as a result of it.
Quite agree.
These injuries were associated with severe fractures to the skull
Doesn't describe a tap on the head.
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Did you need to be,from learning to ride a bike I progressed up to a 1000 cc motorbike with out lessons.
But it's not just the ability to master something but to master it in such a way that you're able to pass a test and be deemed competent.
We all perform countless activities that no one has instructed us in. We either pick them up from observing others or they're intuitive.
No one ever showed me how to use household appliances, baby/childcare equipment, beauty appliances, DIY equipment 8(0(*, gardening equipment, electronic devices: desktops, laptops, ipods, ipads, iPhones, android phones, kindles, cameras. The list goes on and on.
The government requires gun owners to hold a firearms licence but it doesn't require gun owners to pass a test to demonstrate competence.
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I expect we will be required to examine the dictionary definition of “pulp” next in some silly semantic quibble.
No need for some silly semantic quibble when the pathologist who carried out the 5 pm's has stated in plain English re the non-gunshot wpunds:
I did not find it surprising that a woman of that build in possession of a weapon possibly in a deranged state could cause the injuries present.
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But it's not just the ability to master something but to master it in such a way that you're able to pass a test and be deemed competent.
We all perform countless activities that no one has instructed us in. We either pick them up from observing others or they're intuitive.
No one ever showed me how to use household appliances, baby/childcare equipment, beauty appliances, DIY equipment 8(0(*, gardening equipment, electronic devices: desktops, laptops, ipods, ipads, iPhones, android phones, kindles, cameras. The list goes on and on.
The government requires gun owners to hold a firearms licence but it doesn't require gun owners to pass a test to demonstrate competence.
SUCH a shame that Sheila had neither your confidence nor your abilities. This really isn't about YOU, Holly, and in fairness, you really should stop comparing Sheila with you, or anyone else, for that matter.
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I imagine that "a soft, wet, shapeless piece of material" could adequately describe a brain exposed by the skull being smashed/
Did the pathologist say the brain was exposed?
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SUCH a shame that Sheila had neither your confidence nor your abilities. This really isn't about YOU, Holly, and in fairness, you really should stop comparing Sheila with you, or anyone else, for that matter.
SC lived independently and up until her breakdown in Mar '85 was main carer to the twin's. What evidence exists that she struggled with any of the activities I've identified?
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I don't shoot, but I've shot with a .22 rifle as has anyone who has used the ranges at the fairground in the 1960's.
(&^& (&^& (&^&
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You haven't factored in motivation.
Of which Jeremy had LOTS: money!
Why would Sheila had even WANTED to kill her parent’s??
Had she just killed the twins and herself, despite the fact she NEVER once tried to hurt them when she was alone with them in Maida Vale and where she had all the opportunity in the world, people could have possibly thought she had flipped.
But why would she have wanted Nevill dead?! For what motive?
She wasn’t evil and although June was apparently difficult to get along with, Sheila had no reason or motive to kill her
The ONLY person who had a MOTIVE to kill ALL OF THEM was Jeremy Bamber.
There’s your motive, Holly.
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NB was already near death before the magazine needed refilling.
Well if you know all the timings and sequence of events why do you want a reconstruction?
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Clearly the mind was severely disturbed but I don't believe this would preclude someone from refilling the mag and pulling the trigger.
Have some respect, Holly
Sheila wasn’t an “IT”
To say “Clearly the mind was severely disturbed” is extremely rude, ignorant, and what’s more — wrong.
You can’t grasp that Jeremy Bamber has been CONVICTED of these murders, yet you talk as though Sheila carried them out!
And it’s total rubbish that anyone going berserk could possibly reload cartridges when they’ve no knowledge of guns.
It’s al so rubbish that Sheila went berserk. She wasn’t having a psychotic episode — that isn’t how they play out — and she was medicated up to the eyes, so much so she could barely walk, so she couldn’t possibly have gone psychotic.
You really seem to dislike Sheila for some reason...you constantly denigrate her.
The only person’s mind who was DISTURBED that night, and still is, is that repugnant evil Jeremy Bamber. He’s a DISTURBED PSYCHOPATH.
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My point was that I've shot a .22 rifle without any training at all. If I can so can others.
You’re talking utter rubbish
Fairgrounds didn’t have the same type rifle Nevill owned. Nevill’s was a professional rifle, costing £1200 back in 1985. Do you seriously think fairgrounds had such expensive sturdy rifles on a stall for people to try and win a goldfish?
You wouldn’t have had a clue what type of rifle you were shooting — or are you saying you asked them “Is this a .22?”
FGS.
How old were you when you shot this rifle at a fairground? Can you remember?😌
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You’re talking utter rubbish
Fairgrounds didn’t have the same type rifle Nevill owned. Nevill’s was a professional rifle, costing £1200 back in 1985. Do you seriously think fairgrounds had such expensive sturdy rifles on a stall for people to try and win a goldfish?
You wouldn’t have had a clue what type of rifle you were shooting — or are you saying you asked them “Is this a .22?”
FGS.
How old were you when you shot this rifle at a fairground? Can you remember?😌
You have absolutely no chill.
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They used .22 rifles and were exempt from holding firearms certificates for them.
1982;
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Elton) My Lords, Section 11(4) of the Firearms Act 1968 permits a person conducting or carrying on a shooting gallery at which only air weapons or miniature rifles not exceeding .23 calibre are used, to acquire and possess such rifles and their ammunition, without holding a firearm certificate. It is not necessary to hold a certificate to use an exempted rifle at a shooting gallery. We are not persuaded that the removal of this exemption would be justified at present, but the position will be kept under review.
https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1982/may/04/shooting-gallery-rifles-control
Whilst there is no legal definition of a miniature rifle (other than one which does not exceed . 23” in calibre), it is generally accepted that this refers only to rifles firing . 22 rimfire cartridges.
https://www.guntradenews.com/comment/legal/legal-small-bore-and-the-law/
https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1982/may/04/shooting-gallery-rifles-control
A shooting gallery isn’t a fairground, Gunit.
*%87
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https://youtu.be/JrPq6xao0dE
That’s a toy gun FGS!
Talk about clutching at straws @)(++(*
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Have some respect, Holly
Sheila wasn’t an “IT”
To say “Clearly the mind was severely disturbed” is extremely rude, ignorant, and what’s more — wrong.
You can’t grasp that Jeremy Bamber has been CONVICTED of these murders, yet you talk as though Sheila carried them out!
And it’s total rubbish that anyone going berserk could possibly reload cartridges when they’ve no knowledge of guns.
It’s al so rubbish that Sheila went berserk. She wasn’t having a psychotic episode — that isn’t how they play out — and she was medicated up to the eyes, so much so she could barely walk, so she couldn’t possibly have gone psychotic.
You really seem to dislike Sheila for some reason...you constantly denigrate her.
The only person’s mind who was DISTURBED that night, and still is, is that repugnant evil Jeremy Bamber. He’s a DISTURBED PSYCHOPATH.
Please refrain from levelling personal comments at fellow posters.
I do not denigrate SC at all. Why would I denigrate a woman diagnosed with a serious mental illness? In fact I have defended SC when others have labelled her promiscuous and it wasn't just the 'Jeremy supporters' either! I defended her because there isn't a scrap of evidence she was promiscuous.
I am well within my rights, both in terms of the forum rules and legally, to voice my opinion that JB did not commit the murders and that SC was responsible.
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Half the time her dad is guiding her hand! @)(++(*
Did you hear the little crack too?
It’s a toy rifle...
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One assumes you'd wanted to learn, or did you give up as soon as you passed your test?
And did Holly pass first time?
And how many hours did she have being taught how to press pedals and turn a wheel?
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For the benefit of this thread, I have complied this handy spreadsheet:
1) Sheila - not proficient or interested in guns. Shaky and uncoordinated at the best of times.
2) Jeremy - experienced and proficient with guns. Had previously expressed a desire to kill his family.
Shall we add to your two excellent points, CS?😊
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That’s a toy gun FGS!
Talk about clutching at straws @)(++(*
You don't say *%87
The point being a father was showing his 5 yoa daughter the basics of how firearms work. Do you honestly think NB didn't do similar with SC and JB?
Do you honestly think SC growing up on a farm surrounded by firearms and those who use them didn't know one end of the barrel from the other?
She went on shoots as a beater.
She wasn't daft. Most studies show a strong correlation between intelligence and genetics. SC's birth family included an Oxford educated poet and a University lecturer. Her half siblings include a major in the Canadian army and a graphic designer.
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Couldn't wait. I had the car before I was 17. Had a lesson om my 17th birthday and applied for my test too. You had to wait till your 17th birthday to apply. Past first time and there was no stopping me roaring around in my liitle red mini 1275 gt 8(>((
You also have to wait until you’re 17 before getting a provisional driver’s licence...yours came through quickly if you had your first lesson on your 17th birthday !😌
Tad suspicious...
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No need for some silly semantic quibble when the pathologist who carried out the 5 pm's has stated in plain English re the non-gunshot wpunds:
I did not find it surprising that a woman of that build in possession of a weapon possibly in a deranged state could cause the injuries present.
That was before Vanezis saw the soc, rifle, got tyhe toxicology results, and realised it would have been impossible for Sheila to have killed anyone, let alone herself.
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But it's not just the ability to master something but to master it in such a way that you're able to pass a test and be deemed competent.
We all perform countless activities that no one has instructed us in. We either pick them up from observing others or they're intuitive.
No one ever showed me how to use household appliances, baby/childcare equipment, beauty appliances, DIY equipment 8(0(*, gardening equipment, electronic devices: desktops, laptops, ipods, ipads, iPhones, android phones, kindles, cameras. The list goes on and on.
The government requires gun owners to hold a firearms licence but it doesn't require gun owners to pass a test to demonstrate competence.
Most of those didn’t even exist in 1985...almost everyone has learned how to use computers now, but we all had been shown how to first.
As for beauty appliances, I’m not sure which ones you need, Holly, but I’d say just a hairdryer would have sufficed for Sheila given how naturally beautiful she was...
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Did the pathologist say the brain was exposed?
I thought you knew EVERYTHING, Gunit.
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Please refrain from levelling personal comments at fellow posters.
I do not denigrate SC at all. Why would I denigrate a woman diagnosed with a serious mental illness? In fact I have defended SC when others have labelled her promiscuous and it wasn't just the 'Jeremy supporters' either! I defended her because there isn't a scrap of evidence she was promiscuous.
I am well within my rights, both in terms of the forum rules and legally, to voice my opinion that JB did not commit the murders and that SC was responsible.
Oh, what a hypocrite you are, Holly!
It was YOU who made up that LIE pretending Sheila massaged “older men”! You inferred she was a prostitute! And nw you’re saying you defended her when others said she was promiscuous?! The HYPOCRISY of you!
And don’t give me that syrupy sly backpedaling you do....
It isn’t just me who can see what you do, either!
Sheila was actually very CHOOSY, all the men fell at her feet.
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You also have to wait until you’re 17 before getting a provisional driver’s licence...yours came through quickly if you had your first lesson on your 17th birthday !😌
Tad suspicious...
Mmm *%87
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Oh, what a hypocrite you are, Holly!
It was YOU who made up that LIE pretending Sheila massaged “older men”! You inferred she was a prostitute! And nw you’re saying you defended her when others said she was promiscuous?! The HYPOCRISY of you!
And don’t give me that syrupy sly backpedaling you do....
It isn’t just me who can see what you do, either!
Sheila was actually very CHOOSY, all the men fell at her feet.
8((()*/
No it isn’t
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You don't say *%87
The point being a father was showing his 5 yoa daughter the basics of how firearms work. Do you honestly think NB didn't do similar with SC and JB?
Do you honestly think SC growing up on a farm surrounded by firearms and those who use them didn't know one end of the barrel from the other?
She went on shoots as a beater.
She wasn't daft. Most studies show a strong correlation between intelligence and genetics. SC's birth family included an Oxford educated poet and a University lecturer. Her half siblings include a major in the Canadian army and a graphic designer.
Comparing a toy gun to a professional rifle is pathetic.
Truly pathetic.
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You also have to wait until you’re 17 before getting a provisional driver’s licence...yours came through quickly if you had your first lesson on your 17th birthday !😌
Tad suspicious...
My ex husband, at 16, bought himself a van, taught himself to drive, applied for his test which he took on his 17th birthday, passed!!, went back to school proudly waving his pink slip, only to find they been allowed home early because it was Whitsun.
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I agree with Holly on this thread up to a point.
It's not impossible for Sheila to have the know how to have loaded the gun, after all, Jeremy gave her a conveniently recent demonstration while she was at the kitchen table and growing up on the farm it would seem likely she had at least a passing familiarity with guns, even if there is no evidence of her having any recent experience or interest.
However, until the magic scientists can prove otherwise, the silencer is still a part of this case and Sheila must have gone looking for it in order to attach it. She didn't just pick up the gun and put the cartridge in and go crazy - there was another step.
Sheila must have also had the focus to travel up and downstairs to reload to fire so many shots during a sustained period of delusional violence which she was not only medicated for but such a period is completely at odds with Freddies descriptions of her having a breakdown and her psychiatrists assessment.
She must have had the presence of mind to want to make sure they were dead by reloading so many times but didn't have the presence of mind and knowledge of guns to go and fetch a shotgun to get the job done once she realised the 2.2 was not working. Odd too that she decided to try and take her own life with the 2.2 despite having just proved to herself it was ineffective at killing people with one shot.
Likewise, the injuries to Nevill do not prove on their own that only Bamber could have inflicted them but it's reasonable to concede that a 6" man would be better suited to the task. The fact is that there is not a speck of evidence that Sheila was ever in the kitchen or loading and firing the gun. There were no abrasions or bruises on her hands from wielding the gun like a club as she must have done to cause those injuries, no shards of glass in her hair from the lampshade, sugar or cuts on her feet, no broken nails,nothing.
It would be more of a puzzler if her brother hadn't confessed to his girlfriend and made up a ludicrous story about his father phoning him though.
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My ex husband, at 16, bought himself a van, taught himself to drive, applied for his test which he took on his 17th birthday, passed!!, went back to school proudly waving his pink slip, only to find they been allowed home early because it was Whitsun.
April, what year was that?
It’s just that I do know you can’t get a provisional licence until you’re 17; maybe it was different back then?
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I agree with Holly on this thread up to a point.
It's not impossible for Sheila to have the know how to have loaded the gun, after all, Jeremy gave her a conveniently recent demonstration while she was at the kitchen table and growing up on the farm it would seem likely she had at least a passing familiarity with guns, even if there is no evidence of her having any recent experience or interest.
However, until the magic scientists can prove otherwise, the silencer is still a part of this case and Sheila must have gone looking for it in order to attach it. She didn't just pick up the gun and put the cartridge in and go crazy - there was another step.
Sheila must have also had the focus to travel up and downstairs to reload to fire so many shots during a sustained period of delusional violence which she was not only medicated for but such a period is completely at odds with Freddies descriptions of her having a breakdown and her psychiatrists assessment.
She must have had the presence of mind to want to make sure they were dead by reloading so many times but didn't have the presence of mind and knowledge of guns to go and fetch a shotgun to get the job done once she realised the 2.2 was not working. Odd too that she decided to try and take her own life with the 2.2 despite having just proved to herself it was ineffective at killing people with one shot.
Likewise, the injuries to Nevill do not prove on their own that only Bamber could have inflicted them but it's reasonable to concede that a 6" man would be better suited to the task. The fact is that there is not a speck of evidence that Sheila was ever in the kitchen or loading and firing the gun. There were no abrasions or bruises on her hands from wielding the gun like a club as she must have done to cause those injuries, no shards of glass in her hair from the lampshade, sugar or cuts on her feet, no broken nails,nothing.
It would be more of a puzzler if her brother hadn't confessed to his girlfriend and made up a ludicrous story about his father phoning him though.
I agree with most of what you say, CS, but we only have Jeremy Bamber’s word that he showed Sheila how to load that gun — and he’s a proven pathological liar.
Why would he have?
Sheila didn’t have any interest in guns, and she hardly went to WHF after Nevill bought it just six months previously. For what reason would JB had shown Sheila how to load it? It doesn’t add up.
Besides, it wasn’t his gun — it was Nevill’s. Was Jeremy allowed to just take one of Nevill’s guns from his cabinet and go shooting when he didn’t even have a licence? I can’t see that myself.
As for the savage brutal beating Nevill sustained, I don’t believe any woman, unless she was built like Fatima Whitbread high on steroids and fierce rage could have beaten Nevill so viciously. It’s physically impossible.
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No need for some silly semantic quibble when the pathologist who carried out the 5 pm's has stated in plain English re the non-gunshot wpunds:
I did not find it surprising that a woman of that build in possession of a weapon possibly in a deranged state could cause the injuries present.
How does that contradict what I wrote earlier?
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Mmm *%87
Actually, I have heard of several people starting driving lessons on their 17th birthday.
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I agree with most of what you say, CS, but we only have Jeremy Bamber’s word that he showed Sheila how to load that gun — and he’s a proven pathological liar.
Why would he have?
Sheila didn’t have any interest in guns, and she hardly went to WHF after Nevill bought it just six months previously. For what reason would JB had shown Sheila how to load it? It doesn’t add up.
Besides, it wasn’t his gun — it was Nevill’s. Was Jeremy allowed to just take one of Nevill’s guns from his cabinet and go shooting when he didn’t even have a licence? I can’t see that myself.
As for the savage brutal beating Nevill sustained, I don’t believe any woman, unless she was built like Fatima Whitbread high on steroids and fierce rage could have beaten Nevill so viciously. It’s physically impossible.
I think it is much more likely that Bamber invented loading the gun in front of Sheila to preempt the question of how she might know how to load and operate the newest and most complicated gun in the house.
Otherwise, I stand by my previous post, the point of which is that the totality of evidence points to Bamber and in a straight line. Aspects of the case can be taken in isolation to support the theory that Sheila could have been responsible but they never join up with the other evidence (or lack of it) and the most unlikely explanation and scenario has to be chosen at every turn.
Your original post in this thread posits the question of why isn't it more likely she picked up a knife than the gun and I would say that's 50-50 on the arguments here, but add in the fact that the silencer had to be searched for and attached and the odds of Sheila picking up the gun at all fall considerably. Add the lack of evidence for Sheila being anywhere but upstairs and the brutality of the attack on NB which suggests a 6' man and the odds of Sheila being responsible become almost zero. Add the blood in the silencer and JMs evidence and it's case closed as far as I'm concerned.
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April, what year was that?
It’s just that I do know you can’t get a provisional licence until you’re 17; maybe it was different back then?
I suspect it was around 1968. His mother went to the post office and got his provisional on the morning of his birthday. He didn't need one in the beginning. They had a private road and it allowed for all manoeuvres, including hill starts.
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I suspect it was around 1968. His mother went to the post office and got his provisional on the morning of his birthday. He didn't need one in the beginning. They had a private road and it allowed for all manoeuvres, including hill starts.
My son began driving at 12 years of age on private land.
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You don't say *%87
The point being a father was showing his 5 yoa daughter the basics of how firearms work. Do you honestly think NB didn't do similar with SC and JB?
Do you honestly think SC growing up on a farm surrounded by firearms and those who use them didn't know one end of the barrel from the other?
She went on shoots as a beater.
She wasn't daft. Most studies show a strong correlation between intelligence and genetics. SC's birth family included an Oxford educated poet and a University lecturer. Her half siblings include a major in the Canadian army and a graphic designer.
The point being, it's America!
I honestly think that NB didn't show Sheila how to shoot and she had NOT used the rifle.
We live in the countryside next to one of the biggest shooting land in the country - my partner was a beater but was never a shooter!
It's not a case of intelligence, it's a case of what can be achieved during a psychotic episode and leaning a novel task isn't something achievable.
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My son began driving at 12 years of age on private land.
He had to do odd jobs to save up to buy the vehicle before he could learn to drive. Quite a feat of determination for a 16 year old, I think.
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I agree with Holly on this thread up to a point.
It's not impossible for Sheila to have the know how to have loaded the gun, after all, Jeremy gave her a conveniently recent demonstration while she was at the kitchen table and growing up on the farm it would seem likely she had at least a passing familiarity with guns, even if there is no evidence of her having any recent experience or interest.
However, until the magic scientists can prove otherwise, the silencer is still a part of this case and Sheila must have gone looking for it in order to attach it. She didn't just pick up the gun and put the cartridge in and go crazy - there was another step.
Sheila must have also had the focus to travel up and downstairs to reload to fire so many shots during a sustained period of delusional violence which she was not only medicated for but such a period is completely at odds with Freddies descriptions of her having a breakdown and her psychiatrists assessment.
She must have had the presence of mind to want to make sure they were dead by reloading so many times but didn't have the presence of mind and knowledge of guns to go and fetch a shotgun to get the job done once she realised the 2.2 was not working. Odd too that she decided to try and take her own life with the 2.2 despite having just proved to herself it was ineffective at killing people with one shot.
Likewise, the injuries to Nevill do not prove on their own that only Bamber could have inflicted them but it's reasonable to concede that a 6" man would be better suited to the task. The fact is that there is not a speck of evidence that Sheila was ever in the kitchen or loading and firing the gun. There were no abrasions or bruises on her hands from wielding the gun like a club as she must have done to cause those injuries, no shards of glass in her hair from the lampshade, sugar or cuts on her feet, no broken nails,nothing.
It would be more of a puzzler if her brother hadn't confessed to his girlfriend and made up a ludicrous story about his father phoning him though.
Jeremy didn't say he loaded the rifle with the magazine in front of Sheila. just the bullets into the magazine. That's not the hard part, the part you wouldn't know unless shown, is fitting the magazine and then chambering the first shot.
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Jeremy didn't say he loaded the rifle with the magazine in front of Sheila. just the bullets into the magazine. That's not the hard part, the part you wouldn't know unless shown, is fitting the magazine and then chambering the first shot.
Thanks for the clarification Caroline. I did wonder if in his story had chambered a round in the kitchen in front of Nevill, who would surely have said something.
Gun safety would also suggest unchambering the round before going back in the house too I would have thought.
I'm afraid my own experience with guns is limited to playing with an air rifle and a few goes at a shooting gallery at the fairground.
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Thanks for the clarification Caroline. I did wonder if in his story had chambered a round in the kitchen in front of Nevill, who would surely have said something.
Gun safety would also suggest unchambering the round before going back in the house too I would have thought.
I'm afraid my own experience with guns is limited to playing with an air rifle and a few goes at a shooting gallery at the fairground.
Interestingly, David Boutflour said that when Bamber told him on the morning after the murders that he left the magazine attached to the rifle but removed the bullet from the breach. He also said that he had fired a couple of shots but had missed the rabbits. The following day, Bamber amended/clarified this part of his statement. He probably realised that there would be no sign of the bullets he had fired, so had to change his statement to not firing any shots.
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Interestingly, David Boutflour said that when Bamber told him on the morning after the murders that he left the magazine attached to the rifle but removed the bullet from the breach. He also said that he had fired a couple of shots but had missed the rabbits. The following day, Bamber amended/clarified this part of his statement. He probably realised that there would be no sign of the bullets he had fired, so had to change his statement to not firing any shots.
I didn't know that.Another part of his story that changed. So he told the police outside that was how he had left it? I remember that he put the Anschutz near the top of the list of guns in the house, was that because he had left it loaded or because he knew he had left on top of SC I don't wonder?
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I didn't know that.Another part of his story that changed. So he told the police outside that was how he had left it? I remember that he put the Anschutz near the top of the list of guns in the house, was that because he had left it loaded or because he knew he had left on top of SC I don't wonder?
Well, it would have been foremost in this mind. He also has his father saying "Sheila has gone crazy, she's got THE gun" as opposed to A gun.
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Well, it would have been foremost in this mind. He also has his father saying "Sheila has gone crazy, she's got THE gun" as opposed to A gun.
I find it interesting how he played on the 'active shooter' element whilst stood outside with the police. How was he to know they would be reluctant to enter? I know it seems an obvious protocol, but he had no way of knowing that a brave bobby wouldn't go and try to make entry, and he can't have known the police protocol to wait for armed response.
He couldn't have banked on this happening when he was hatching the plan, he must have played it on the hoof - which is a feat in itself. The 'movement' in the window may have been part of this ongoing persuasion, with him noting that they had to wait for firearms
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I find it interesting how he played on the 'active shooter' element whilst stood outside with the police. How was he to know they would be reluctant to enter? I know it seems an obvious protocol, but he had no way of knowing that a brave bobby wouldn't go and try to make entry, and he can't have known the police protocol to wait for armed response.
He couldn't have banked on this happening when he was hatching the plan, he must have played it on the hoof - which is a feat in itself. The 'movement' in the window may have been part of this ongoing persuasion, with him noting that they had to wait for firearms
Hindsight is a wonderful tool. It also enables us to see the pitfalls which may not have been obvious at the time. Our posts are littered with the "What if's" that didn't occur. Any manner of things MAY have gone wrong -there were two particularly serious ones, ie Nevill's demise not going to plan, and having to shoot Sheila twice- but he did what many of us do when faced with unprecedented situations, we play it by ear. We wing it. On the whole, he accomplished it rather well. He VERY nearly got away with it.
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I find it interesting how he played on the 'active shooter' element whilst stood outside with the police. How was he to know they would be reluctant to enter? I know it seems an obvious protocol, but he had no way of knowing that a brave bobby wouldn't go and try to make entry, and he can't have known the police protocol to wait for armed response.
He couldn't have banked on this happening when he was hatching the plan, he must have played it on the hoof - which is a feat in itself. The 'movement' in the window may have been part of this ongoing persuasion, with him noting that they had to wait for firearms
Why wouldn't he know it - even before being interested in this case, I knew it. But then again, perhaps he wasn't that bothered if they did or not.
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I find it interesting how he played on the 'active shooter' element whilst stood outside with the police. How was he to know they would be reluctant to enter? I know it seems an obvious protocol, but he had no way of knowing that a brave bobby wouldn't go and try to make entry, and he can't have known the police protocol to wait for armed response.
He couldn't have banked on this happening when he was hatching the plan, he must have played it on the hoof - which is a feat in itself. The 'movement' in the window may have been part of this ongoing persuasion, with him noting that they had to wait for firearms
What difference would it have made to Bamber’s account if the police had stormed in straight away?
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What difference would it have made to Bamber’s account if the police had stormed in straight away?
Good question. I don't know. He was thinking on his feet, so maybe he thought that chaos was OK at this point.
But the whole 'movement' in the window stuff wasn't going to do his narrative any harm.
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Good question. I don't know. He was thinking on his feet, so maybe he thought that chaos was OK at this point.
But the whole 'movement' in the window stuff wasn't going to do his narrative any harm.
Urged caution from an unharmed officer,seemed to have worked with no entering until some time after 7am.
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Actually, I have heard of several people starting driving lessons on their 17th birthday.
The Post Office don’t issue Driving Licences — they only issue the forms which you then had to send to the DVLA in Swansea (it’s the same now — although can probably be done online) — and takes a couple of weeks for your licence to come through.
You can’t get a DL from the post office...
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Jeremy didn't say he loaded the rifle with the magazine in front of Sheila. just the bullets into the magazine. That's not the hard part, the part you wouldn't know unless shown, is fitting the magazine and then chambering the first shot.
Haha, likely story...
All fits into his plan to make it look like Sheila knew how to load a rifle.
He’s so transparent
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Interestingly, David Boutflour said that when Bamber told him on the morning after the murders that he left the magazine attached to the rifle but removed the bullet from the breach. He also said that he had fired a couple of shots but had missed the rabbits. The following day, Bamber amended/clarified this part of his statement. He probably realised that there would be no sign of the bullets he had fired, so had to change his statement to not firing any shots.
I might do a side by side thread of all his conflicting lies in his two witness statements.
He has a bad memory: he actually asked the police officer if he could look at his first ws to see what he’d said previously 😌
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Good question. I don't know. He was thinking on his feet, so maybe he thought that chaos was OK at this point.
But the whole 'movement' in the window stuff wasn't going to do his narrative any harm.
Pity he didn't think about mentioning such an important occurrence when he made his statement or when being interviewed.
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Well, it would have been foremost in this mind. He also has his father saying "Sheila has gone crazy, she's got THE gun" as opposed to A gun.
We all know Nevill rang Jeremy
But had he, he’d have said: “Sheila’s got hold of the Anschutz”
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I think it is much more likely that Bamber invented loading the gun in front of Sheila to preempt the question of how she might know how to load and operate the newest and most complicated gun in the house.
Otherwise, I stand by my previous post, the point of which is that the totality of evidence points to Bamber and in a straight line. Aspects of the case can be taken in isolation to support the theory that Sheila could have been responsible but they never join up with the other evidence (or lack of it) and the most unlikely explanation and scenario has to be chosen at every turn.
Your original post in this thread posits the question of why isn't it more likely she picked up a knife than the gun and I would say that's 50-50 on the arguments here, but add in the fact that the silencer had to be searched for and attached and the odds of Sheila picking up the gun at all fall considerably. Add the lack of evidence for Sheila being anywhere but upstairs and the brutality of the attack on NB which suggests a 6' man and the odds of Sheila being responsible become almost zero. Add the blood in the silencer and JMs evidence and it's case closed as far as I'm concerned.
Absolutely spot on, CC!
Who can argue with that?!
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Pity he didn't think about mentioning such an important occurrence when he made his statement or when being interviewed.
There is a passage in CAL that struck me as odd, recounting his shock at the verdict and no doubt regretting his "that's for you to prove" remark, Bamber says he should have acted differently but that he thought "all you had to do was be innocent"
There was no mention of disbelief or shock and horror upon being arrested, the months on remand didn't ring any alarm bells. Sitting in the dock didn't turn a lightbulb on. None of this apparently provided a jolt to his system.
Think about that, your family are all killed and you are wrongly accused of it. Arrested, held on remand and then starring in one of the biggest murder trials of the decade. Would anyone with half a brain think that just being innocent was enough?
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There is a passage in CAL that struck me as odd, recounting his shock at the verdict and no doubt regretting his "that's for you to prove" remark, Bamber says he should have acted differently but that he thought "all you had to do was be innocent"
There was no mention of disbelief or shock and horror upon being arrested, the months on remand didn't ring any alarm bells. Sitting in the dock didn't turn a lightbulb on. None of this apparently provided a jolt to his system.
Think about that, your family are all killed and you are wrongly accused of it. Arrested, held on remand and then starring in one of the biggest murder trials of the decade. Would anyone with half a brain think that just being innocent was enough?
Well, I wouldn't---but then I have read far too much true crime stuff!
But, yes, actually, I can imagine an innocent person thinking he or she had nothing to worry about, because the truth would come out during the trial.
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Well, I wouldn't---but then I have read far too much true crime stuff!
But, yes, actually, I can imagine an innocent person thinking he or she had nothing to worry about, because the truth would come out during the trial.
It did.
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It did.
Well, let's hope so, otherwise an innocent man has been in prison for 35 years, with next to no chance of release (IMO) !!!
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Well, let's hope so, otherwise an innocent man has been in prison for 35 years, with next to no chance of release (IMO) !!!
No need to worry.
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There is a passage in CAL that struck me as odd, recounting his shock at the verdict and no doubt regretting his "that's for you to prove" remark, Bamber says he should have acted differently but that he thought "all you had to do was be innocent"
There was no mention of disbelief or shock and horror upon being arrested, the months on remand didn't ring any alarm bells. Sitting in the dock didn't turn a lightbulb on. None of this apparently provided a jolt to his system.
Think about that, your family are all killed and you are wrongly accused of it. Arrested, held on remand and then starring in one of the biggest murder trials of the decade. Would anyone with half a brain think that just being innocent was enough?
That’s such an interesting point, CS:
“Jeremy said he should have ACTED differently”
He slipped up there, didn’t he? He ACTED at the funerals (badly, IMO), and once arrested decided to act indifferent, thinking he’d look innocent. Being a psychopath he doesn’t know HOW normal people react in certain circumstances.
Anyone arrested for such a HORRIFIC offence would be in total shock, disbelief, incredulous, possibly angry screaming they’re innocent, and also nervous and fearful that such a horrendous mistake was being made.
Not Jeremy.
In every single photograph of him being led away in handcuffs he’s calm and smiling at the cameras. And a minority say that isn’t psychopathic?😳
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That’s such an interesting point, CS:
“Jeremy said he should have ACTED differently”
He slipped up there, didn’t he? He ACTED at the funerals (badly, IMO), and once arrested decided to act indifferent, thinking he’d look innocent. Being a psychopath he doesn’t know HOW normal people react in certain circumstances.
Anyone arrested for such a HORRIFIC offence would be in total shock, disbelief, incredulous, possibly angry screaming they’re innocent, and also nervous and fearful that such a horrendous mistake was being made.
Not Jeremy.
In every single photograph of him being led away in handcuffs he’s calm and smiling at the cameras. And a minority say that isn’t psychopathic?😳
Spot on Ispy. He was months in prison on remand for something he claims he didn't do.He had numerous meetings with his legal team and saw the evidence mounting up against him. An innocent man would have been bewildered and terrified. Any innocent man that ends up in court will already feel that the justice system has failed and could not have any confidence that it would correct it's mistake.
The actual quote is from page 376 CAL and refers to JB waiting for the verdict:
" Jeremy's lawyer Edmund Lawson recalled that in the cells underneath the court, his client appeared 'disconcertingly composed' and talked 'somewhat unattractively about how much money he would make from selling his story to Fleet Street'. Jeremy admits regretting his behaviour: 'Looking back, I wouldn't have acted in the way I did. I thought all you had to do was be innocent. It wasn't until it was too late that I found out that wasn't the case."
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Spot on Ispy. He was months in prison on remand for something he claims he didn't do.He had numerous meetings with his legal team and saw the evidence mounting up against him. An innocent man would have been bewildered and terrified. Any innocent man that ends up in court will already feel that the justice system has failed and could not have any confidence that it would correct it's mistake.
The actual quote is from page 376 CAL and refers to JB waiting for the verdict:
" Jeremy's lawyer Edmund Lawson recalled that in the cells underneath the court, his client appeared 'disconcertingly composed' and talked 'somewhat unattractively about how much money he would make from selling his story to Fleet Street'. Jeremy admits regretting his behaviour: 'Looking back, I wouldn't have acted in the way I did. I thought all you had to do was be innocent. It wasn't until it was too late that I found out that wasn't the case."
Good grief, that last paragraph of Jeremy’s REALLY gave him away!
“Looking back, I wouldn’t have ACTED in the way I did”
Since when did a defendant “act”?
His mask slipped in court too...he just couldn’t resist trying to be clever by saying “That’s what you’ve got to prove”. He thought he’d look smart, but all it did was show how arrogant he is. And never would an innocent man speak or behave in that way. They’d be pleading, weeping, terrified...and absolutely desperate to prove their innocence! He never did any of that. He was a calm, cold psychopath just staring ahead.