UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Alleged Miscarriages of Justice => Jeremy Bamber and the callous murder of his father, mother, sister and twin nephews. Case effectively CLOSED by CCRC on basis of NO APPEAL REFERRAL. => Topic started by: Eleanor on April 29, 2020, 11:19:38 AM
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Jeremy should have pleaded Guilty due to Insanity, IF he did it. He'd be out by now and long since.
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Jeremy should have pleaded Guilty due to Insanity, IF he did it. He'd be out by now and long since.
Jeremy couldn’t have pleaded guilty due to insanity as the prison psychiatrist said he wasn’t suffering from any mental illness: he just said that he was a psychopath and pathological liar, and he steadfastly believed Jeremy was as guilty as sin.
Had he managed to bamboozle them into thinking he was criminally insane, he’d have been sent to Broadmoor and would never have been released.
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Jeremy should have pleaded Guilty due to Insanity, IF he did it. He'd be out by now and long since.
He's running out of time for sure if he is ever to be freed one day when he is incapable of doing any further mischief to anyone. That can only happen though if he has the guts to admit his guilt and make the best of it.
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Jeremy couldn’t have pleaded guilty due to insanity as the prison psychiatrist said he wasn’t suffering from any mental illness: he just said that he was a psychopath and pathological liar, and he steadfastly believed Jeremy was as guilty as sin.
Had he managed to bamboozle them into thinking he was criminally insane, he’d have been sent to Broadmoor and would never have been released.
The only problem you have is that there's not a shred of evidence to substantiate your post.
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The only problem you have is that there's not a shred of evidence to substantiate your post.
Even his own lawyer said he had psychopathic tendencies.
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The only problem you have is that there's not a shred of evidence to substantiate your post.
There is Holly but you appear to choose to ignore it
Bamber’s diagnosis was part of his pre trial assessment
Suspect the Supreme Court Judges decision on his full life term were partly based on these facts
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Julie Mugford also referred to Jeremy Bamber as a psychopath.
According to CAL
Evidence, perhaps, that he is well aware of a psychopath’s profile and indeed Jeremy and his supporters have often been keen to point out that he has never been classified as a psychopath.
“Yet documentation shows he refused to allow police access to his medical records pre-trial and did not want to be assessed, while a psychiatrist engaged by his defence declared that he displayed several classic psychopathic symptoms,” says Lee.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/news/history/595845/Inside-the-mind-of-a-murderer-Carol-Ann-Lee-Jeremy-Bamber/amp?espv=1
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The only problem you have is that there's not a shred of evidence to substantiate your post.
Bamber’s omission of his pre trial assessment report may make it appear invisible but it exists Holly - ask him for a copy of it
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Holly will be saying next that it was all June's fault that the two adopted children grew up 'damaged'.
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Holly will be saying next that it was all June's fault that the two adopted children grew up 'damaged'.
It sounds entirely possible to me. June was obviously damaged.
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And yet Nevil was prepared to encourage his mentally unstable wife to adopt two small children that she couldn't care for.
Are you suggesting that Nevill was in full knowledge of June's mental instability and disregarded how it would effect children in her care? Might it have simply been that after years of living with the unhappiness caused by her 'disappointments' he believed that babies would be the answer to her well being?
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It sounds entirely possible to me. June was obviously damaged.
Does being devoutly Christian render one damaged Elie?
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Does being devoutly Christian render one damaged Elie?
Yes if it results in in-patient psychiatric care.
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Holly will be saying next that it was all June's fault that the two adopted children grew up 'damaged'.
And whose fault can it be said to have been? Whether one believes it to have been Jeremy or Sheila, don't you think it strange that two totally unrelated children, bought up by the same adoptive mother, should end up being damaged? A child is NEVER responsible for any kind of abuse inflicted on it by adults.
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And yet Nevil was prepared to encourage his mentally unstable wife to adopt two small children that she couldn't care for.
What makes you think Nevill encouraged June to adopt? How do you know it wasn’t her who was more eager to?
I’m sure it was a joint decision — it would have had to of been.
Whatever, the both obviously wanted a family, and they went through all the hoops to adopt not just one, but two children. I don’t know why you seem to be pointing the finger at Nevill: out of all of them I think he was the most normals and nicest of them all.
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Does being devoutly Christian render one damaged Elie?
Was she not sent to a hospital for mentally disturbed people?
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There is Holly but you appear to choose to ignore it
Bamber’s diagnosis was part of his pre trial assessment
Suspect the Supreme Court Judges decision on his full life term were partly based on these facts
Please provide the supporting material.
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Holly will be saying next that it was all June's fault that the two adopted children grew up 'damaged'.
I think SC's mental illness had its roots in June's mental illness.
JB's full birth siblings live gilded lives.
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Please provide the supporting material.
It seems to me that the above is a very convenient security blanket. Numerous of us have said that the assessing psychiatrist said he was a psychopath. Because you insist that only documented evidence can be considered as valid, you can choose to disregard what the psychiatrist said...............or might it be the other way round?
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I think SC's mental illness had its roots in June's mental illness.
JB's full birth siblings live gilded lives.
But JB’s siblings aren’t psychopaths...
It’s almost unheard of to have two siblings with psychopathy
Look at John Sutcliffe for example — his siblings are normal. As are many infamous mass murderers.
I’ve said before, psychopathy is due to a part of the brain being wired up wrong, or can ve caused by a head injury which damages that part of the brain.
He’s been diagnosed as a psychopath and it isn’t caused by nurture. Yes, having a bad upbringing can damage any child, but it won’t turn them into psychopaths and mass murderers.
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I think SC's mental illness had its roots in June's mental illness.
JB's full birth siblings live gilded lives.
So do I.
How does a mentally unstable woman manage to adopt a schizophrenic and a psychopath?
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It seems to me that the above is a very convenient security blanket. Numerous of us have said that the assessing psychiatrist said he was a psychopath. Because you insist that only documented evidence can be considered as valid, you can choose to disregard what the psychiatrist said...............or might it be the other way round?
Oh, I will produce, probably not today though unless I spend ages hunting for it, which I’m not prepared to do
I’m sure Holly won’t mind waiting....but it does seem strange why she asks for the evidence when she must have seen it herself, just like hundreds of others have
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It seems to me that the above is a very convenient security blanket. Numerous of us have said that the assessing psychiatrist said he was a psychopath. Because you insist that only documented evidence can be considered as valid, you can choose to disregard what the psychiatrist said...............or might it be the other way round?
I had experience of a Psychiatrist once upon a time. And I could tell that he was barking at the age of twelve.
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So do I.
How does a mentally unstable woman manage to adopt a schizophrenic and a psychopath?
Couldn't agree more.
And if you look at the birth families you see the polar opposite.
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It seems to me that the above is a very convenient security blanket. Numerous of us have said that the assessing psychiatrist said he was a psychopath. Because you insist that only documented evidence can be considered as valid, you can choose to disregard what the psychiatrist said...............or might it be the other way round?
Bamber's NOMIS files are confidential and something only he, the courts and prison/probation staff would be privy to.
I think it's very telling how he has his campaign team keep insisting he is not a psychopath which makes me think he took exception to something in his pre sentencing reports. He certainly took exception to Kerry Daynes diagnosing him as a psychopath, it seems to hurt his feelings.
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So do I.
How does a mentally unstable woman manage to adopt a schizophrenic and a psychopath?
I would argue that the children she adopted were neither.
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Bamber's NOMIS files are confidential and something only he, the courts and prison/probation staff would be privy to.
I think it's very telling how he has his campaign team keep insisting he is not a psychopath which makes me think he took exception to something in his pre sentencing reports. He certainly took exception to Kerry Daynes diagnosing him as a psychopath, it seems to hurt his feelings.
I believe the reason he refuses to let anyone see those reports is that it does indeed state he’s a psychopath (people have seen them including myself), and he doesn’t want his CT to know, nor anyone else, as it proves he’s capable of murder.
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I had experience of a Psychiatrist once upon a time. And I could tell that he was barking at the age of twelve.
Well, if surgeons can be psychopathic, I see no reason for psychiatrists to be entirely sane. It's probably better that they're not. Gives them clearer insight to their patients.
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I would argue that the children she adopted were neither.
So what were they then?
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So what were they then?
A baby girl and a baby boy. I will not accept that two individual infants, each with a latent disorder, are adopted into the same family and between them exacerbate their adoptive mother's mental disorder.
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A baby girl and a baby boy.
So what happened?
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So what happened?
Conditional love. Too little positive affirmation. Unrealistic expectations. Disregard of their individual needs.
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Please provide the supporting material.
Where is your supporting material for your analysis on June turning her children into mentally ill adults? This is a horrible thread and it's beneath you.
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Where is your supporting material for your analysis on June turning her children into mentally ill adults? This is a horrible thread and it's beneath you.
https://developingchild.harvard.edu/resources/maternal-depression-can-undermine-the-development-of-young-children/
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https://developingchild.harvard.edu/resources/maternal-depression-can-undermine-the-development-of-young-children/
That's it? You opinion and an article? You constantly state that you only listen to expert opinion and yet here you are relying on the opinions and gossip of others, having never met or interacted with any of those in question - other than an individual convicted of killing them? Like I said, it's beneath you and certainly shows an affiliation with Bamber because of his adoption. Not really going to stand you in good stead as a serious contender in the science world because you're coming from a position of bias. Like I said, it's beneath you and a lot of the posts almost sound like baying.
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That's it? You opinion and an article? You constantly state that you only listen to expert opinion and yet here you are relying on the opinions and gossip of others, having never met or interacted with any of those in question - other than an individual convicted of killing them? Like I said, it's beneath you and certainly shows an affiliation with Bamber because of his adoption. Not really going to stand you in good stead as a serious contender in the science world because you're coming from a position of bias. Like I said, it's beneath you and a lot of the posts almost sound like baying.
An article? You mean decades of research by a variety of experts at the top of their game showing how babies/small children are put at risk by maternal depression.
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Holly will be saying next that it was all June's fault that the two adopted children grew up 'damaged'.
She does say that doesn't she? It's the victims' faults for all being so effed up, no wonder they all died, the bunch of barmpots were asking for it from the word go. That seems to be the gist of the argument.
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An article? You mean decades of research by a variety of experts at the top of their game showing how babies/small children are put at risk by maternal depression.
Is it about the Bambers or just something you're applying to the Bambers?
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She does say that doesn't she? It's the victims' faults for all being so effed up, no wonder they all died, the bunch of barmpots were asking for it from the word go. That seems to be the gist of the argument.
To be fair, this may be less about June, than that, back then, countless women were allowed to adopt, who should never have been. I have to hold to children aren't ever responsible for adults' behaviours and I believe in the old adage "As you sow, so shall you reap" because I see it played out on a daily basis.
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She does say that doesn't she? It's the victims' faults for all being so effed up, no wonder they all died, the bunch of barmpots were asking for it from the word go. That seems to be the gist of the argument.
That's how I read it also. How many kid grow up in household worse than this and don't kill anyone? Kid who grew up in care? Were abused? The whole thing is just an excuse for Bamber and a bit sickening!
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To be fair, this may be less about June, than that, back then, countless women were allowed to adopt, who should never have been. I have to hold to children aren't ever responsible for adults' behaviours and I believe in the old adage "As you sow, so shall you reap" because I see it played out on a daily basis.
I hear your argument Jane but many people have kids who shouldn't even be responsible for a goldfish. I don't believe Sheila hated her mother but I think she probably said things to others in order to sounds off - but never once did she talk about killing her. Show me a family that hold up their hands and say "We were completely normal" and I'll show you a liar I believe Bamber had given that impression in his blogs.
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I hear your argument Jane but many people have kids who shouldn't even be responsible for a goldfish. I don't believe Sheila hated her mother but I think she probably said things to others in order to sounds off - but never once did she talk about killing her. Show me a family that hold up their hands and say "We were completely normal" and I'll show you a liar I believe Bamber had given that impression in his blogs.
Caroline, that's not my argument. I'm more inclined to see Sheila as hating herself rather than hating her mother. Even towards the end of her life, she claimed to have accepted God because it would help her relationship with June. To me, it sounds like a child craving affection. Whilst I have no ideas what "normal" is, you'd be really amazed at the number of people who talk to me about being "normal, like us"!!!!
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I don’t have a problem: Dr Ferguson’s statement is actually in CAL’s book.
I don’t have it at the moment, but I certainly shall post the link
Dr Ferguson never gave an opinion on Jeremy Bamber except to say Sheila had no problem with him.
The mention of a defence psychiatrist by CAL was taken fron Blood Relations by Roger Wilkes. Perhaps this man's name is in that book? I don't have it. Rather scarily, he is reported to have seen Jeremy's 'very real belief that he didn't commit the crimes' as the main sign of his psychopathy.
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I believe the reason he refuses to let anyone see those reports is that it does indeed state he’s a psychopath (people have seen them including myself), and he doesn’t want his CT to know, nor anyone else, as it proves he’s capable of murder.
Yep, he knows that a person would have to have some psychopathy to plan and carry out the murders but also, it ties in with his polygraph stunt, which any right minded person dismisses with "a psychopath can pass one" - but he's not a psychopath they retort, he's had 27 tests... ( or so he claims ) - the fact that the polygraph is utterly useless anyway doesn't matter to them.
I think you posted something about online psychopathy tests and instinctively knowing the answers a while back - I took two and surprise surprise, I was able to score top and bottom marks.
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Bamber's NOMIS files are confidential and something only he, the courts and prison/probation staff would be privy to.
I think it's very telling how he has his campaign team keep insisting he is not a psychopath which makes me think he took exception to something in his pre sentencing reports. He certainly took exception to Kerry Daynes diagnosing him as a psychopath, it seems to hurt his feelings.
Too many people who had direct contact with Jeremy Bamber have made the same claim that he had psychopathic tendencies. He has never accepted this and now he has probably grown out of it in middle age and will never accept it just as he doesn't have the savvy to put his hands up to the killings which would stand him in good stead in the future. His continual denial isn't fooling anyone but then he knows that if he admits to murdering his adoptive nephews in cold blood he would present as a target in prison so woukd end up in isolation.
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Too many people who had direct contact with Jeremy Bamber have made the same claim that he had psychopathic tendencies. He has never accepted this and now he has probably grown out of it in middle age and will never accept it just as he doesn't have the savvy to put his hands up to the killings which would stand him in good stead in the future. His continual denial isn't fooling anyone but then he knows that if he admits to murdering his adoptive nephews in cold blood he would present as a target in prison.
How has Bamber ‘grown out’ of his psychopathy? He’ll always be a psychopath - there’s no known cure
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Too many people who had direct contact with Jeremy Bamber have made the same claim that he had psychopathic tendencies. He has never accepted this and now he has probably grown out of it in middle age and will never accept it just as he doesn't have the savvy to put his hands up to the killings.
I just find myself wondering what is meant by "They grow out of it"? I mean, how is it possible to suddenly develop a conscience, empathy? After a life-time of not knowing what emotion is, it must scare s**t out of them. Do they then confess to all their past crimes, or does "growing out of it" cause amnesia? Whilst I concede that the opportunities, with age, become less for them to practice psychopathy, I'm inclined to think once a psychopath, always a psychopath.
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Caroline, that's not my argument. I'm more inclined to see Sheila as hating herself rather than hating her mother. Even towards the end of her life, she claimed to have accepted God because it would help her relationship with June. To me, it sounds like a child craving affection. Whilst I have no ideas what "normal" is, you'd be really amazed at the number of people who talk to me about being "normal, like us"!!!!
Yes, I know, I didn't mean it was your argument - but it is insinuated by many.
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I just find myself wondering what is meant by "They grow out of it"? I mean, how is it possible to suddenly develop a conscience, empathy? After a life-time of not knowing what emotion is, it must scare s**t out of them. Do they then confess to all their past crimes, or does "growing out of it" cause amnesia? Whilst I concede that the opportunities, with age, become less for them to practice psychopathy, I'm inclined to think once a psychopath, always a psychopath.
You can't grow out of it and the fact that he still deny's responsibility and craves attention is testament to it.
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Dr Ferguson never gave an opinion on Jeremy Bamber except to say Sheila had no problem with him.
The mention of a defence psychiatrist by CAL was taken fron Blood Relations by Roger Wilkes. Perhaps this man's name is in that book? I don't have it. Rather scarily, he is reported to have seen Jeremy's 'very real belief that he didn't commit the crimes' as the main sign of his psychopathy.
No there's no name in RW's book. It's just as you've posted. Those who believe JB guilty are desparate for a psychopathy diagnosis hidden away in a dusty file somewhere. It's the equivalent of the CT wanting to make something out of sloppy paperwork.
It could be worse though, Stefan Kiszko was diagnosed by a forensic psychologist in prison as suffering from "delusions of innocence".
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Too many people who had direct contact with Jeremy Bamber have made the same claim that he had psychopathic tendencies. He has never accepted this and now he has probably grown out of it in middle age and will never accept it just as he doesn't have the savvy to put his hands up to the killings which would stand him in good stead in the future. His continual denial isn't fooling anyone but then he knows that if he admits to murdering his adoptive nephews in cold blood he would present as a target in prison so woukd end up in isolation.
I assume these people are competent and qualified to make a psychopathy diagnosis?
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Are you suggesting that Nevill was in full knowledge of June's mental instability and disregarded how it would effect children in her care? Might it have simply been that after years of living with the unhappiness caused by her 'disappointments' he believed that babies would be the answer to her well being?
I can believe that.
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Holly will be saying next that it was all June's fault that the two adopted children grew up 'damaged'.
CC certainly thought so. He made numerous references to this in his book and even went as far as saying he could have murdered June.
In a letter he drafted to NB he said:
I will not allow her to fcuk up the minds of my children in the way I suspect she has your daughter.
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I can believe that.
But NB saw it all go horribly wrong with SC and still they went ahead and adopted JB.
SC should have been removed from their care when June became severely depressed in 1959 due to her decision to adopt SC in 1957. The authorities should have moved in taken SC and prevented the Bambers from adopting further children.
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Anyway back to the OP, CC was taking the twins to see SC but it seems they were in effect supervised visits with CC present.
According to CC he was told by Dr F SC was likely to suffer with her illness at increasing intervals and Dr F inferred a poor outlook. The twins were only just 6 yoa so needed taking care of for at least the next 12 years. The Bamber's were not getting younger.
CC certainly realised SC was no longer able to care for the twins and that wasn't going to change. He had no intention in letting SC becoming main carer again.
We know from CC's mother wit stat June expressed her concerns that through SC's illness the twins might be fostered. Maybe June was simply sounding out CC's mother
I don't see why anyone doubts the Bamber's were initiating conversations about the twins future?
IMO, it's because Jeremy said they were, and some people believe that, because Jeremy lied about some things, he lied about everything!
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IMO, it's because Jeremy said they were, and some people believe that, because Jeremy lied about some things, he lied about everything!
I'm not sure he has lied? I could go through all the witnesses statements etc and highlight anomalies and inconsistencies.
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It sounds entirely possible to me. June was obviously damaged.
Colin implies, in his book, that growing up with Nevill and June may not have been very beneficial to either Jeremy or Sheila .
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But NB saw it all go horribly wrong with SC and still they went ahead and adopted JB.
SC should have been removed from their care when June became severely depressed in 1959 due to her decision to adopt SC in 1957. The authorities should have moved in taken SC and prevented the Bambers from adopting further children.
I suppose he hoped June would recover, and that there would be no recurrence of her illness. I don't know how much of a part Nevill actually took in the upbringing of his children.
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Colin implies, in his book, that growing up with Nevill and June may not have been very beneficial to either Jeremy or Sheila .
The outcomes prove him right.
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Some sensible conclusions. Sadly not implemented.
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No there's no name in RW's book. It's just as you've posted. Those who believe JB guilty are desparate for a psychopathy diagnosis hidden away in a dusty file somewhere. It's the equivalent of the CT wanting to make something out of sloppy paperwork.
@)(++(* @)(++(*
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But NB saw it all go horribly wrong with SC and still they went ahead and adopted JB.
SC should have been removed from their care when June became severely depressed in 1959 due to her decision to adopt SC in 1957. The authorities should have moved in taken SC and prevented the Bambers from adopting further children.
Are these your projections Holly?
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But NB saw it all go horribly wrong with SC and still they went ahead and adopted JB.
SC should have been removed from their care when June became severely depressed in 1959 due to her decision to adopt SC in 1957. The authorities should have moved in taken SC and prevented the Bambers from adopting further children.
Where did you find the evidence that June's depression was as a result of adopting Sheila. I've had a look for it and can only find ...
Snip
June suffered from depression and had been admitted to a psychiatric hospital, once in 1955 before she adopted Sheila, and again in 1958, months after the adoption, when she was given electroshock therapy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_House_Farm_murders
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Where did you find the evidence that June's depression was as a result of adopting Sheila. I've had a look for it and can only find ...
Snip
June suffered from depression and had been admitted to a psychiatric hospital, once in 1955 before she adopted Sheila, and again in 1958, months after the adoption, when she was given electroshock therapy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_House_Farm_murders
I think you'll find Dr Ferguson said it. Perhaps "as a result of adopting Sheila" could have been about not immediately bonding with her, and/or generally finding motherhood was not the experience she'd imagined?
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I'm not sure he has lied? I could go through all the witnesses statements etc and highlight anomalies and inconsistencies.
Then you are not sure of anything.
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No there's no name in RW's book. It's just as you've posted. Those who believe JB guilty are desparate for a psychopathy diagnosis hidden away in a dusty file somewhere. It's the equivalent of the CT wanting to make something out of sloppy paperwork.
It could be worse though, Stefan Kiszko was diagnosed by a forensic psychologist in prison as suffering from "delusions of innocence".
It not hidden, he was classified as a psychopath prior to trial - just because we're not party to the details doesn't make it any the less true.
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I wonder why the home secretary increased his sentence to whole life?
Was it because he just felt like it or was it because he was privy to whatever is in Bambers NOMIS file?
Or was it because Bamber and his CT are clearly attempting innocence fraud with the "sloppy paperwork" conspiracy fantasies that Holly refers to?
The psych eval referred to by RW was requested by the defence who obviously didn't have to disclose it. The prison service would have done their own either pre sentence or after conviction and I'm betting its bad.
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I wonder why the home secretary increased his sentence to whole life?
Was it because he just felt like it or was it because he was privy to whatever is in Bambers NOMIS file?
Or was it because Bamber and his CT are clearly attempting innocence fraud with the "sloppy paperwork" conspiracy fantasies that Holly refers to?
The psych eval referred to by RW was requested by the defence who obviously didn't have to disclose it. The prison service would have done their own either pre sentence or after conviction and I'm betting its bad.
I don't think he had a CT back then?
As Bamber campaigns for the release of (so called) withheld doc, perhaps the anti Bmabers should campaign for the release of his pre-trial psych report? @)(++(*
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I don't think he had a CT back then?
As Bamber campaigns for the release of (so called) withheld doc, perhaps the anti Bmabers should campaign for the release of his pre-trial psych report? @)(++(*
True but I think by that time Bamber had already tried innocence fraud with his failed appeal attempt, claiming the judge was really mean to him mentioning all that evidence and other bad stuff. Maybe the HS just knew he would never shut up so he gave him something to moan about?
I'd sign that petition! He can release all his 27 assessments so we can see for ourselves. The CCRCs 112 page statement of reasons is what I'm after. I suspect he really hates that his appeal court judgements are online. Very few ACJs are as amusing as the 2002 farce.
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Dr Ferguson never gave an opinion on Jeremy Bamber except to say Sheila had no problem with him.
The mention of a defence psychiatrist by CAL was taken fron Blood Relations by Roger Wilkes. Perhaps this man's name is in that book? I don't have it. Rather scarily, he is reported to have seen Jeremy's 'very real belief that he didn't commit the crimes' as the main sign of his psychopathy.
I never said Dr Ferguson did give an opinion on Jeremy... I don’t know why you mentioned that thing
JB’s ability to lie about killing them, to the extent he’s told himself he didn’t is why he can pass lie detector tests. Interestingly, he failed the polygraph many years ago...
He’s also refused to take the truth drug: no idea why 😌
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Yep, he knows that a person would have to have some psychopathy to plan and carry out the murders but also, it ties in with his polygraph stunt, which any right minded person dismisses with "a psychopath can pass one" - but he's not a psychopath they retort, he's had 27 tests... ( or so he claims ) - the fact that the polygraph is utterly useless anyway doesn't matter to them.
I think you posted something about online psychopathy tests and instinctively knowing the answers a while back - I took two and surprise surprise, I was able to score top and bottom marks.
That’s right, CS
That very test he took and which I put up online is incredibly easy to manipulate and answer as a normal person would
That’s why British courts deem them inadmissible
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No there's no name in RW's book. It's just as you've posted. Those who believe JB guilty are desparate for a psychopathy diagnosis hidden away in a dusty file somewhere. It's the equivalent of the CT wanting to make something out of sloppy paperwork.
It could be worse though, Stefan Kiszko was diagnosed by a forensic psychologist in prison as suffering from "delusions of innocence".
But he’s still displaying his psychopathy now, Holly
When he was diagnosed with psychopathy is irrelevant as psychopaths can’t “get bettr” — it’s untreatable and incurable
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I assume these people are competent and qualified to make a psychopathy diagnosis?
You’re not a psychiatrist, Holly, but I bet you’d say Peter Sutcliffe is a psychopath — and you’ve never even met him
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Anyway back to the OP, CC was taking the twins to see SC but it seems they were in effect supervised visits with CC present.
According to CC he was told by Dr F SC was likely to suffer with her illness at increasing intervals and Dr F inferred a poor outlook. The twins were only just 6 yoa so needed taking care of for at least the next 12 years. The Bamber's were not getting younger.
CC certainly realised SC was no longer able to care for the twins and that wasn't going to change. He had no intention in letting SC becoming main carer again.
We know from CC's mother wit stat June expressed her concerns that through SC's illness the twins might be fostered. Maybe June was simply sounding out CC's mother
I don't see why anyone doubts the Bamber's were initiating conversations about the twins future?
What on Earth are you talking about?
Sheila and Colin had joint custody, and when the twins stayed with her they weren’t supervised visits!
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You’re not a psychiatrist, Holly, but I bet you’d say Peter Sutcliffe is a psychopath — and you’ve never even met him
Primary or secondary?
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What on Earth are you talking about?
Sheila and Colin had joint custody, and when the twins stayed with her they weren’t supervised visits!
Resorting to lying to try and defame someone — someone who’s dead and was murdered by the man YOU fawn over — is extremely low!
When Sheila had her psychotic episode in March 85 which culminated in in patient care Colin realised that the boys hadn't been thriving in her care. The school had been concerned about them as their attendance was erratic and their progress was poor. Colin took over and they improved, so he carried on caring for them. Although he gradually allowed them to spend some time with their mother he refused to allow them to visit White House Farm until the August. Quite why he relented I don't know.
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When Sheila had her psychotic episode in March 85 which culminated in in patient care Colin realised that the boys hadn't been thriving in her care. The school had been concerned about them as their attendance was erratic and their progress was poor. Colin took over and they improved, so he carried on caring for them. Although he gradually allowed them to spend some time with their mother he refused to allow them to visit White House Farm until the August. Quite why he relented I don't know.
Perhaps because he felt she was responding well to treatment and unlikely to have another psychotic episode?
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You’re not a psychiatrist, Holly, but I bet you’d say Peter Sutcliffe is a psychopath — and you’ve never even met him
I expect you think Sutcliffe was a psychopath, Ispy, but four (yes four!) psychiatrists diagnosed Sutcliffe with paranoid schitzophrenia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Sutcliffe#Prison_and_Broadmoor_Hospital
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Where did you find the evidence that June's depression was as a result of adopting Sheila. I've had a look for it and can only find ...
Snip
June suffered from depression and had been admitted to a psychiatric hospital, once in 1955 before she adopted Sheila, and again in 1958, months after the adoption, when she was given electroshock therapy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_House_Farm_murders
In statements from Dr Ferguson who was June and SC's psychiatrist paid for privately by NB:
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Are these your projections Holly?
How can they be my 'projections' when Afaik noone in my adoptive family (or birth family) has ever suffered any mental illness or been involved in any criminality.
Surely any right thinking person would preclude a woman with June's history of mental illness from adopting?
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How can they be my 'projections' when Afaik noone in my adoptive family (or birth family) has ever suffered any mental illness or been involved in any criminality.
Surely any right thinking person would preclude a woman with June's history of mental illness from adopting?
There are several possibilities. Firstly, mental health may not have been part of the Adoption Society's screening process. Secondly, June's psychiatrist at the time may have been approached and his response may have been encouraging. Thirdly June's mental health problems may not have been mentioned.
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I wonder why the home secretary increased his sentence to whole life?
Was it because he just felt like it or was it because he was privy to whatever is in Bambers NOMIS file?
Or was it because Bamber and his CT are clearly attempting innocence fraud with the "sloppy paperwork" conspiracy fantasies that Holly refers to?
The psych eval referred to by RW was requested by the defence who obviously didn't have to disclose it. The prison service would have done their own either pre sentence or after conviction and I'm betting its bad.
Why a whole life tariff? Possibly because he killed 5 people, including two children----that is, assuming he's guilty.
Same as the Moors Murderers and Rosemary West---multiple killings. Not sure who else has a whole life tariff, will have to look it up!
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I hear your argument Jane but many people have kids who shouldn't even be responsible for a goldfish. I don't believe Sheila hated her mother but I think she probably said things to others in order to sounds off - but never once did she talk about killing her. Show me a family that hold up their hands and say "We were completely normal" and I'll show you a liar I believe Bamber had given that impression in his blogs.
Those close to SC eg CC and Freddie describe a toxic relationship.
According to Dr F, SC saw June as a threat to her. How many children, adopted or otherwise, need psychiatric treatment during which they describe seeing their mother as a threat?
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How can they be my 'projections' when Afaik noone in my adoptive family (or birth family) has ever suffered any mental illness or been involved in any criminality.
Surely any right thinking person would preclude a woman with June's history of mental illness from adopting?
I'm going to say that I believe the key to June's mental health would have been counselling as opposed to ECT, but it probably wasn't used back then -incidentally, I had a friend who swore that ECT was the only thing which worked for her brother's depression, which I'm inclined to think would now have been diagnosed as PTSD, she said he was a different person after he'd had it. I guess we'd all be if part of our brain had been fried- unfortunately, counselling isn't a quick fix, and it may have taken several years to enable her to offload the strictures imposed on her childhood, and prevent her passing them on to children.
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There are several possibilities. Firstly, mental health may not have been part of the Adoption Society's screening process. Secondly, June's psychiatrist at the time may have been approached and his response may have been encouraging. Thirdly June's mental health problems may not have been mentioned.
It was probably the latter especially if the Bamber's went private.
I think SC and JB were both discriminated against on the basis they were adopted and brought with them 'bad blood'. Whereas the Bambers were seen as the poor infertile couple who were dealt a poor hand!
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Those close to SC eg CC and Freddie describe a toxic relationship.
According to Dr F, SC saw June as a threat to her. How many children, adopted or otherwise, need psychiatric treatment during which they describe seeing their mother as a threat?
I'm inclined to see, as "psych speak", Dr Ferguson's opinion of SC seeing June as a threat to her. In everyday language, I'd say Sheila was probably scared of June, as in scared she'd do the wrong thing and there would be recriminations. Such fear would have made it really hard for Sheila to have been Sheila, rather than June's daughter.
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I'm going to say that I believe the key to June's mental health would have been counselling as opposed to ECT, but it probably wasn't used back then -incidentally, I had a friend who swore that ECT was the only thing which worked for her brother's depression, which I'm inclined to think would now have been diagnosed as PTSD, she said he was a different person after he'd had it. I guess we'd all be if part of our brain had been fried- unfortunately, counselling isn't a quick fix, and it may have taken several years to enable her to offload the strictures imposed on her childhood, and prevent her passing them on to children.
According to CAL Ferguson said ECT was used because June didn't respond to medication or to psychoanalysis. [page 23]
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I'm going to say that I believe the key to June's mental health would have been counselling as opposed to ECT, but it probably wasn't used back then -incidentally, I had a friend who swore that ECT was the only thing which worked for her brother's depression, which I'm inclined to think would now have been diagnosed as PTSD, she said he was a different person after he'd had it. I guess we'd all be if part of our brain had been fried- unfortunately, counselling isn't a quick fix, and it may have taken several years to enable her to offload the strictures imposed on her childhood, and prevent her passing them on to children.
But June's mental illness didn't surface until she had difficulty conceiving and then found herself infertile.
There doesn't appear to have been any history of mental illness in her biological family.
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It was probably the latter especially if the Bamber's went private.
I think SC and JB were both discriminated against on the basis they were adopted and brought with them 'bad blood'. Whereas the Bambers were seen as the poor infertile couple who were dealt a poor hand!
I think the dark stigma of illegitimacy would have hung over them -possibly June believed it was something that 'right living' would cleanse them of?- but how much of that was June's own 'stuff', and how much was society's, is questionable.
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I wonder why the home secretary increased his sentence to whole life?
Was it because he just felt like it or was it because he was privy to whatever is in Bambers NOMIS file?
Or was it because Bamber and his CT are clearly attempting innocence fraud with the "sloppy paperwork" conspiracy fantasies that Holly refers to?
The psych eval referred to by RW was requested by the defence who obviously didn't have to disclose it. The prison service would have done their own either pre sentence or after conviction and I'm betting its bad.
The psych eval referred to by RW was an off the cuff comment from a psychiatrist who was apparently in defence counsel Chambers shortly before trial. Firstly we only have the authors words and interpretation. Secondly it may well have come from the psychiatrist instructed by the defence Dr Bradley.
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It not hidden, he was classified as a psychopath prior to trial - just because we're not party to the details doesn't make it any the less true.
Who classified JB as a psychopath? When? Where? How?
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You’re not a psychiatrist, Holly, but I bet you’d say Peter Sutcliffe is a psychopath — and you’ve never even met him
PS has been diagnosed by numerous mental health professionals as a paranoid schizophrenic.
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I wonder why the home secretary increased his sentence to whole life?
Was it because he just felt like it or was it because he was privy to whatever is in Bambers NOMIS file?
Or was it because Bamber and his CT are clearly attempting innocence fraud with the "sloppy paperwork" conspiracy fantasies that Holly refers to?
The psych eval referred to by RW was requested by the defence who obviously didn't have to disclose it. The prison service would have done their own either pre sentence or after conviction and I'm betting its bad.
The trial judge made ref as to whether it would ever be safe to release him.
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PS has been diagnosed by numerous mental health professionals as a paranoid schizophrenic.
I'm not so sure he isn't just feigning it to stay in hospital. Harry Ogden was junior counsel for the prosecution at PS' trial and recounts cross examining him, asking how, if he was hearing voices commanding him to kill, those voices only spoke to him on Friday and Saturdays when Sonja was at work. *%87
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But June's mental illness didn't surface until she had difficulty conceiving and then found herself infertile.
There doesn't appear to have been any history of mental illness in her biological family.
But how she bought up her children was a reflection of her own childhood. She had no other frame of reference. The mental illness didn't create, what was to become a high reliance on religion, she'd been bought up with that, but I believe it may have caused her to believe she was being punished.
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Those close to SC eg CC and Freddie describe a toxic relationship.
According to Dr F, SC saw June as a threat to her. How many children, adopted or otherwise, need psychiatric treatment during which they describe seeing their mother as a threat?
In an interview Bamber gave in 1993, when asked,
Do you see the spark of this crime being the possibility of her children being fostered out ?
His reply was,
“It was something that was discussed. That was one of the many, many options that were discussed over how best to help her. What were the outside pressures causing her such distress ?”
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I'm not so sure he isn't just feigning it to stay in hospital. Harry Ogden was junior counsel for the prosecution at PS' trial and recounts cross examining him, asking how, if he was hearing voices commanding him to kill, those voices only spoke to him on Friday and Saturdays when Sonja was at work. *%87
Hasn't Sutcliffe been moved back to prison now? I'm sure it was being talked about a year or two ago.
Sonia herself suffers from schizophrenia. I often wondered whether PS was feigning his symptoms based upon what he saw at home. However, there must, surely, have been something wrong with him for him to do what he did, and he was in Broadmoor for many years.
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This is a horror story.
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PS has been diagnosed by numerous mental health professionals as a paranoid schizophrenic.
And a psychopath
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Hasn't Sutcliffe been moved back to prison now? I'm sure it was being talked about a year or two ago.
Sonia herself suffers from schizophrenia. I often wondered whether PS was feigning his symptoms based upon what he saw at home. However, there must, surely, have been something wrong with him for him to do what he did, and he was in Broadmoor for many years.
Prisoners have been known to feign mental illness so as to get a more comfortable environment
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But June's mental illness didn't surface until she had difficulty conceiving and then found herself infertile.
There doesn't appear to have been any history of mental illness in her biological family.
I haven’t got CAL’s book to hand, but three men who lived at WHF in the 1800s and early 1900s all killed themselves.
One took arsenic, I believe
One drowned himself in a big water butt
And one shot himself dead by tying string to his toe and the trigger of a rifle, then clenching his foot to fire it. That one lived on the farm but not in the house. The other two lived in the house.
I’m not sure, but I think they were related to June in some way...it’s at the very beginning of the book
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Prisoners have been known to feign mental illness so as to get a more comfortable environment
Or cop a plea on diminished responsibility.
Huntley tried it, pretending to be catatonic and literally dribbling but seemed to make a remarkable recovery when he thought no one was watching.
Anyway, I'm not convinced that psych evals can't be fooled by a more clever and cunning person. Mrs W makes an excellent point about PS having a familiar example to mimic.
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What on Earth are you talking about?
Sheila and Colin had joint custody, and when the twins stayed with her they weren’t supervised visits!
In CC's first wit stat he refers to seeing SC a few times with the boys.
In his second wit stat he refers to allowing SC to have the twins at her flat 5% of the time.
5% doesn't sound like joint custody. CC was clearly calling the shots and rightly so if his letter drafted to NB was an accurate reflection.
The needs of children come first. June was not fit to adopt children and sadly SC was not fit to parent the twins.
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PS has been diagnosed by numerous mental health professionals as a paranoid schizophrenic.
Yet he held down a job as a lorry driver for many years, undiagnosed and unmedicated.
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In CC's first wit stat he refers to seeing SC a few times with the boys.
In his second wit stat he refers to allowing SC to have the twins at her flat 5% of the time.
5% doesn't sound like joint custody. CC was clearly calling the shots and rightly so if his letter drafted to NB was an accurate reflection.
The needs of children come first. June was not fit to adopt children and sadly SC was not fit to parent the twins.
In your unqualified opinion. Legally they have joint custody and in times once Sheila was stabilised on her medication, there. is no reason why she couldn't have taken a more active part in their lives - not only was that taken from her, but the lives of he boy was also extinguished by a greedy, heartless, psychopath.
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I haven’t got CAL’s book to hand, but three men who lived at WHF in the 1800s and early 1900s all killed themselves.
One took arsenic, I believe
One drowned himself in a big water butt
And one shot himself dead by tying string to his toe and the trigger of a rifle, then clenching his foot to fire it. That one lived on the farm but not in the house. The other two lived in the house.
I’m not sure, but I think they were related to June in some way...it’s at the very beginning of the book
Yes I recall the history and former occupants but I don't recall any mention they were biologically related to June.
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In your unqualified opinion. Legally they have joint custody and in times once Sheila was stabilised on her medication, there. is no reason why she couldn't have taken a more active part in their lives - not only was that taken from her, but the lives of he boy was also extinguished by a greedy, heartless, psychopath.
I think their father was the best judge of that and he thought otherwise. He was probably further guided by Dr F who he claims told him SC would always suffer the condition and with increasing regularity. If medication is the panacea you seem to think it is why didn't he say 'Oh she'll be fine if she takes her meds'?
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In CC's first wit stat he refers to seeing SC a few times with the boys.
In his second wit stat he refers to allowing SC to have the twins at her flat 5% of the time.
5% doesn't sound like joint custody. CC was clearly calling the shots and rightly so if his letter drafted to NB was an accurate reflection.
The needs of children come first. June was not fit to adopt children and sadly SC was not fit to parent the twins.
But they weren’t “supervised visits”, Holly
You said they were, but they weren’t.
Sheila and Colin agreed on joint custody, but when Sheila was unwell Colin cared for them most of the time, which any normal loving father would do
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I think their father was the best judge of that and he thought otherwise. He was probably further guided by Dr F who he claims told him SC would always suffer the condition and with increasing regularity. If medication is the panacea you seem to think it is why didn't he say 'Oh she'll be fine if she takes her meds'?
Because he'd ensured, by medicating her with monthly injections, that she would be fine as there was no danger of her forgetting to take it. Incidentally, I don't believe he said those words to Colin when Sheila was on the point of leaving hospital. I think it was his initial assessment of her in her unmedicated state.
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I'm not so sure he isn't just feigning it to stay in hospital. Harry Ogden was junior counsel for the prosecution at PS' trial and recounts cross examining him, asking how, if he was hearing voices commanding him to kill, those voices only spoke to him on Friday and Saturdays when Sonja was at work. *%87
(&^& (&^&
Yes, I’ve noticed how murderers who play the “nutty card” only hear voices telling them to kill: they never hear voices telling them to give all their money to charity or buy strangers gifts...
Peter Sutcliffe is seriously deluded too. He said his trial was a complete farce!🤣
When HE was hoping to appeal he said he’d wear a smart suit to impress the judge 🤣
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And a psychopath
Are you making things up again? 8((()*/
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Yet he held down a job as a lorry driver for many years, undiagnosed and unmedicated.
Yes!!
I read some years ago that he used sometimes park overnight in a car park by a Common, just a few miles from where I lived at the time. Even that sent shivers down me thinking he’d once been a few miles away
Hs wife is very weird!
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Are you making things up again? 8((()*/
Don’t tell me you have a crush on him too...
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I think their father was the best judge of that and he thought otherwise. He was probably further guided by Dr F who he claims told him SC would always suffer the condition and with increasing regularity. If medication is the panacea you seem to think it is why didn't he say 'Oh she'll be fine if she takes her meds'?
You think he's the best judge 'on this occasion'? At the time the twins were with him, Sheila wasn't able to look after them obviously and he did the right thing in taking full care. However, given that his word is now reliable, where in Colin's words does he mention it being a permanent arrangement?
Millions of schizophrenics live their lives with their children having been stabilised on medication. I'm STILL waiting for you to provide an example of someone killing in whilst in the midst of a psychotic episode while regularly taking their medication. The last example you provided, the individual had admitted to having not taken.
I can't answer why someone didn't say something but I suspect he was taking things one step at a time. Perhaps he even. did mention it, but Colin had no faith in the conventual meds.
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But they weren’t “supervised visits”, Holly
You said they were, but they weren’t.
Sheila and Colin agreed on joint custody, but when Sheila was unwell Colin cared for them most of the time, which nay normal loving father would do
I didn't say they were supervised visits. I said CC took the twins to see SC so in effect they were supervised visits:
https://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11438.msg586795#msg586795
Ie SC was not left alone with them as CC was there. But I can in his second statement he states he had the twins 95% of the time from Mar to Aug and he allowed SC to have the twins at her flat the rest of the time which I assume was without the presence of CC and/or others.
CC claims Dr F told him SC would suffer the illness at increasing intervals. He was only going to permit SC limited unsupervised contact with the twins.
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In statements from Dr Ferguson who was June and SC's psychiatrist paid for privately by NB:
?
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In CC's first wit stat he refers to seeing SC a few times with the boys.
In his second wit stat he refers to allowing SC to have the twins at her flat 5% of the time.
5% doesn't sound like joint custody. CC was clearly calling the shots and rightly so if his letter drafted to NB was an accurate reflection.
The needs of children come first. June was not fit to adopt children and sadly SC was not fit to parent the twins.
Yes, CC was calling the shots because had there been any attempt by Sheila to regain her status as the resident parent, he would have had more than enough evidence for a court to side with him and give him legal sole custody.
I suspect June and Nevill knew this and didn't rock the boat, again making the fostering conversation a questionable event. There is simply no reason to believe Jb that it happened.
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How can they be my 'projections' when Afaik noone in my adoptive family (or birth family) has ever suffered any mental illness or been involved in any criminality.
Surely any right thinking person would preclude a woman with June's history of mental illness from adopting?
June Bamber was never involved in ‘any criminality’ !
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You think he's the best judge 'on this occasion'? At the time the twins were with him, Sheila wasn't able to look after them obviously and he did the right thing in taking full care. However, given that his word is now reliable, where in Colin's words does he mention it being a permanent arrangement?
Millions of schizophrenics live their lives with their children having been stabilised on medication. I'm STILL waiting for you to provide an example of someone killing in whilst in the midst of a psychotic episode while regularly taking their medication. The last example you provided, the individual had admitted to having not taken.
I can't answer why someone didn't say something but I suspect he was taking things one step at a time. Perhaps he even. did mention it, but Colin had no faith in the conventual meds.
In the letter he drafted to NB where he was seeking his help to "try and convince SC" it would be best for her and the twins if they stayed with CC most of the time and SC could see them when she wished.
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Why a whole life tariff? Possibly because he killed 5 people, including two children----that is, assuming he's guilty.
Same as the Moors Murderers and Rosemary West---multiple killings. Not sure who else has a whole life tariff, will have to look it up!
It was Judge Ann Power Forde who referred to ‘Hope’ re Bamber’s full life tariff
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How can they be my 'projections' when Afaik noone in my adoptive family (or birth family) has ever suffered any mental illness or been involved in any criminality.
Surely any right thinking person would preclude a woman with June's history of mental illness from adopting?
So should people with mental illness be stopped from having biological children? There is no question that June had issues, but many parents do. I wonder if things may have been different if neither Sheila or Jeremy found out they were adopted?
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There are several possibilities. Firstly, mental health may not have been part of the Adoption Society's screening process. Secondly, June's psychiatrist at the time may have been approached and his response may have been encouraging. Thirdly June's mental health problems may not have been mentioned.
8((()*/
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Those close to SC eg CC and Freddie describe a toxic relationship.
What time frame are you referring to ?
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The psych eval referred to by RW was an off the cuff comment from a psychiatrist who was apparently in defence counsel Chambers shortly before trial. Firstly we only have the authors words and interpretation. Secondly it may well have come from the psychiatrist instructed by the defence Dr Bradley.
*%87
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Who classified JB as a psychopath? When? Where? How?
Pre trial - when he was on remand - in prison
Case papers, meeting with Bamber - various sources
It’ll all be in his prison assessment file
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I'm not so sure he isn't just feigning it to stay in hospital. Harry Ogden was junior counsel for the prosecution at PS' trial and recounts cross examining him, asking how, if he was hearing voices commanding him to kill, those voices only spoke to him on Friday and Saturdays when Sonja was at work. *%87
And 4 psychiatrist brought into this *&^^&
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The psych eval referred to by RW was an off the cuff comment from a psychiatrist who was apparently in defence counsel Chambers shortly before trial. Firstly we only have the authors words and interpretation. Secondly it may well have come from the psychiatrist instructed by the defence Dr Bradley.
Not certain what you mean, here. Are you dismissing, out of hand, because it's not 'evidence', anything said by psychiatrists who dare to suggest that Jeremy is a psychopath? Surely not?
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Prisoners have been known to feign mental illness so as to get a more comfortable environment
And feign ‘normalcy’
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So should people with mental illness be stopped from having biological children? There is no question that June had issues, but many parents do. I wonder if things may have been different if neither Sheila or Jeremy found out they were adopted?
Anyone who is over 16 can procreate and bring children into the world. If children are at risk of abuse in all its form SS will intervene and have the power to remove birth children from their biological parents.
Adoption is different. Adoptive parents have to apply to adopt and meet certain criteria. A court has to rubber stamp the adoption otder. Once the adoption is made legal adoptive parents and adopted children are in the eyes of the law treated exactly the same as birth parents/children and SS have the same powers to intervene if it is thought the children are at risk of abuse in all its forms.
You seem to be saying you think it best if families created by adoption live in denial?
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I haven’t got CAL’s book to hand, but three men who lived at WHF in the 1800s and early 1900s all killed themselves.
One took arsenic, I believe
One drowned himself in a big water butt
And one shot himself dead by tying string to his toe and the trigger of a rifle, then clenching his foot to fire it. That one lived on the farm but not in the house. The other two lived in the house.
I’m not sure, but I think they were related to June in some way...it’s at the very beginning of the book
What did Bamber know of the history of WHF - what did his parents tell him?
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Or cop a plea on diminished responsibility.
Huntley tried it, pretending to be catatonic and literally dribbling but seemed to make a remarkable recovery when he thought no one was watching.
Anyway, I'm not convinced that psych evals can't be fooled by a more clever and cunning person. Mrs W makes an excellent point about PS having a familiar example to mimic.
Psychopaths are renowned for mirroring others
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Psychopaths are renowned for mirroring others
That's really all they have to go on.
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JB was never involved in ‘any criminality’ !
I thought he admitted to breaking into OCP and was found guilty in a court of law of mass murder by a majority verdict of 10/2 in 1986 and remains in prison to this day?
I believe he also grew cannabis for own use and distributed it for profit although the authorities didn't seem to want to pursue this unlike OCP.
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That's really all they have to go on.
“A psychopath will mirror your identity at the beginning, middle and end of a relationship, only in different ways at each stage. Initially, in order to win you over, he will pretend to be like you and to like everything about you. Robert Hare and Paul Babiak describe in Snakes in Suits how during the “assessment phase” of the relationship a psychopath will convey to his target four main messages: 1) I like you; 2) I share your interests; 3) I’m like you, and 4) I’m the perfect partner or soul mate for you.
This process constitutes the mirroring phase of the psychopathic bond. Granted, most romantic relationships entail some aspects of mirroring. After all, that’s how couples discover their points in common. But with a psychopath the reflection tends to be instant and total. It’s a simulated bonding that’s way too fast, too soon and too good to be true. This happens before any real emotional connection can take place. It occurs before the partners have gotten to know each other well, over time and in different circumstances. Instant bonding is usually a symptom of shallowness of emotions rather than of miraculous compatibility. It means that the psychopath will detach from you and latch on to another target as easily as he initially attached to you. Yet through their conversational glibness and innate charm, as well as through their extraordinary capacity to identify and reflect your deepest desires, psychopaths can initially make you feel like they’re your dream come true. They present themselves as the only partners who could possibly fulfill whatever’s been missing from your life.
During the course of the relationship, however, the psychopath reveals more and more his true colors. He becomes increasingly critical and controlling. What’s more, he also incites you to go along with his wrongdoings. That way you mirror his ugly personality and become his accomplice. His message switches from being “I’m just like you” (as moral, smart, kind, beautiful, ideal as you are) as it was during the luring phase to being “you’re just like me” (as deceitful, malicious, dishonest as you begin to see that he is). Keep in mind that, most likely, you’re not. Even if you’ve engaged in some wrongdoings, unless you thrive on pathological lying, promiscuity as a means of domination of others, playing mind games, harming others and power games you’re not likely to be a psychopath, like him.
When you’ve finally had enough and leave the psychopath–or when he leaves you–he will see you as a devalued, distorted mirror image of himself and of your former, idealized, self as well. Every quality he initially saw in you–from beauty to brains–will be turned into its opposite. If he saw you as smart, you’re now stupid in his eyes. If he was attracted to your beauty, he now sees you as ugly. If he admired your hard work, he now views your efforts as a mindless submission to the system. As I’ve explained in the previous post about the process of idealize, devalue and discard, this negative mirroring at the end is a natural and inevitable unfolding of the psychopathic relationship.
Just as the idealized mirror image at the beginning of the psychopathic bond had little to do with your qualities–they were false compliments intended to lure you–so the de-idealized mirror image at the end has nothing to do with you either. These distorted mirroring effects have everything to do with the character deficiencies of the psychopath himself, who suffers from an incurable evil. Which, incidentally, is a good way to describe the middle mirroring phase as well: when he says you, or all human beings, are like him, remember that’s not true either. A psychopath is different from–and far worse than–just about any human being you will ever know.
Claudia Moscovici, psychopathyawareness
https://psychopathyawareness.wordpress.com/2011/01/20/the-psychopaths-mirroring-effects/
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“A psychopath will mirror your identity at the beginning, middle and end of a relationship, only in different ways at each stage. Initially, in order to win you over, he will pretend to be like you and to like everything about you. Robert Hare and Paul Babiak describe in Snakes in Suits how during the “assessment phase” of the relationship a psychopath will convey to his target four main messages: 1) I like you; 2) I share your interests; 3) I’m like you, and 4) I’m the perfect partner or soul mate for you.
This process constitutes the mirroring phase of the psychopathic bond. Granted, most romantic relationships entail some aspects of mirroring. After all, that’s how couples discover their points in common. But with a psychopath the reflection tends to be instant and total. It’s a simulated bonding that’s way too fast, too soon and too good to be true. This happens before any real emotional connection can take place. It occurs before the partners have gotten to know each other well, over time and in different circumstances. Instant bonding is usually a symptom of shallowness of emotions rather than of miraculous compatibility. It means that the psychopath will detach from you and latch on to another target as easily as he initially attached to you. Yet through their conversational glibness and innate charm, as well as through their extraordinary capacity to identify and reflect your deepest desires, psychopaths can initially make you feel like they’re your dream come true. They present themselves as the only partners who could possibly fulfill whatever’s been missing from your life.
During the course of the relationship, however, the psychopath reveals more and more his true colors. He becomes increasingly critical and controlling. What’s more, he also incites you to go along with his wrongdoings. That way you mirror his ugly personality and become his accomplice. His message switches from being “I’m just like you” (as moral, smart, kind, beautiful, ideal as you are) as it was during the luring phase to being “you’re just like me” (as deceitful, malicious, dishonest as you begin to see that he is). Keep in mind that, most likely, you’re not. Even if you’ve engaged in some wrongdoings, unless you thrive on pathological lying, promiscuity as a means of domination of others, playing mind games, harming others and power games you’re not likely to be a psychopath, like him.
When you’ve finally had enough and leave the psychopath–or when he leaves you–he will see you as a devalued, distorted mirror image of himself and of your former, idealized, self as well. Every quality he initially saw in you–from beauty to brains–will be turned into its opposite. If he saw you as smart, you’re now stupid in his eyes. If he was attracted to your beauty, he now sees you as ugly. If he admired your hard work, he now views your efforts as a mindless submission to the system. As I’ve explained in the previous post about the process of idealize, devalue and discard, this negative mirroring at the end is a natural and inevitable unfolding of the psychopathic relationship.
Just as the idealized mirror image at the beginning of the psychopathic bond had little to do with your qualities–they were false compliments intended to lure you–so the de-idealized mirror image at the end has nothing to do with you either. These distorted mirroring effects have everything to do with the character deficiencies of the psychopath himself, who suffers from an incurable evil. Which, incidentally, is a good way to describe the middle mirroring phase as well: when he says you, or all human beings, are like him, remember that’s not true either. A psychopath is different from–and far worse than–just about any human being you will ever know.
Claudia Moscovici, psychopathyawareness
Will read this later but I've known a few.
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Yes, CC was calling the shots because had there been any attempt by Sheila to regain her status as the resident parent, he would have had more than enough evidence for a court to side with him and give him legal sole custody.
I suspect June and Nevill knew this and didn't rock the boat, again making the fostering conversation a questionable event. There is simply no reason to believe Jb that it happened.
Yes I suspect the Bamber's knew that if the matter went to court and it was a case of CC v SC in London CC would win.
The Bambers may have wanted to preempt this by getting SC set up in Essex with a support system by way of themselves and local Foster carers.
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“A psychopath will mirror your identity at the beginning, middle and end of a relationship, only in different ways at each stage. Initially, in order to win you over, he will pretend to be like you and to like everything about you. Robert Hare and Paul Babiak describe in Snakes in Suits how during the “assessment phase” of the relationship a psychopath will convey to his target four main messages: 1) I like you; 2) I share your interests; 3) I’m like you, and 4) I’m the perfect partner or soul mate for you.
This process constitutes the mirroring phase of the psychopathic bond. Granted, most romantic relationships entail some aspects of mirroring. After all, that’s how couples discover their points in common. But with a psychopath the reflection tends to be instant and total. It’s a simulated bonding that’s way too fast, too soon and too good to be true. This happens before any real emotional connection can take place. It occurs before the partners have gotten to know each other well, over time and in different circumstances. Instant bonding is usually a symptom of shallowness of emotions rather than of miraculous compatibility. It means that the psychopath will detach from you and latch on to another target as easily as he initially attached to you. Yet through their conversational glibness and innate charm, as well as through their extraordinary capacity to identify and reflect your deepest desires, psychopaths can initially make you feel like they’re your dream come true. They present themselves as the only partners who could possibly fulfill whatever’s been missing from your life.
During the course of the relationship, however, the psychopath reveals more and more his true colors. He becomes increasingly critical and controlling. What’s more, he also incites you to go along with his wrongdoings. That way you mirror his ugly personality and become his accomplice. His message switches from being “I’m just like you” (as moral, smart, kind, beautiful, ideal as you are) as it was during the luring phase to being “you’re just like me” (as deceitful, malicious, dishonest as you begin to see that he is). Keep in mind that, most likely, you’re not. Even if you’ve engaged in some wrongdoings, unless you thrive on pathological lying, promiscuity as a means of domination of others, playing mind games, harming others and power games you’re not likely to be a psychopath, like him.
When you’ve finally had enough and leave the psychopath–or when he leaves you–he will see you as a devalued, distorted mirror image of himself and of your former, idealized, self as well. Every quality he initially saw in you–from beauty to brains–will be turned into its opposite. If he saw you as smart, you’re now stupid in his eyes. If he was attracted to your beauty, he now sees you as ugly. If he admired your hard work, he now views your efforts as a mindless submission to the system. As I’ve explained in the previous post about the process of idealize, devalue and discard, this negative mirroring at the end is a natural and inevitable unfolding of the psychopathic relationship.
Just as the idealized mirror image at the beginning of the psychopathic bond had little to do with your qualities–they were false compliments intended to lure you–so the de-idealized mirror image at the end has nothing to do with you either. These distorted mirroring effects have everything to do with the character deficiencies of the psychopath himself, who suffers from an incurable evil. Which, incidentally, is a good way to describe the middle mirroring phase as well: when he says you, or all human beings, are like him, remember that’s not true either. A psychopath is different from–and far worse than–just about any human being you will ever know.
Claudia Moscovici, psychopathyawareness
https://psychopathyawareness.wordpress.com/2011/01/20/the-psychopaths-mirroring-effects/
Oh yes!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Not certain what you mean, here. Are you dismissing, out of hand, because it's not 'evidence', anything said by psychiatrists who dare to suggest that Jeremy is a psychopath? Surely not?
There's nothing to dismiss out of hand because there's simply no evidence JB was or is a psychopath.
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There's nothing to dismiss out of hand because there's simply no evidence JB was or is a psychopath.
That safety blanket again.
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There's nothing to dismiss out of hand because there's simply no evidence JB was or is a psychopath.
There is, you just ignore and deny it. It's not going away though.
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There is, you just ignore and deny it. It's not going away though.
Please post up all these reports you believe exist.
If you had any evidence you would post it up but you don't just a claim made by a book author as posted by G-Unit
The mention of a defence psychiatrist by CAL was taken fron Blood Relations by Roger Wilkes. Perhaps this man's name is in that book? I don't have it. Rather scarily, he is reported to have seen Jeremy's 'very real belief that he didn't commit the crimes' as the main sign of his psychopathy.
https://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11438.msg586851#msg586851
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I haven’t got CAL’s book to hand, but three men who lived at WHF in the 1800s and early 1900s all killed themselves.
One took arsenic, I believe
One drowned himself in a big water butt
And one shot himself dead by tying string to his toe and the trigger of a rifle, then clenching his foot to fire it. That one lived on the farm but not in the house. The other two lived in the house.
I’m not sure, but I think they were related to June in some way...it’s at the very beginning of the book
If Bamber was told of these stories could he have been fixated with them?
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Please post up all these reports you believe exist.
If you had any evidence you would post it up but you don't just a claim made by a book author as posted by G-Unit
The mention of a defence psychiatrist by CAL was taken fron Blood Relations by Roger Wilkes. Perhaps this man's name is in that book? I don't have it. Rather scarily, he is reported to have seen Jeremy's 'very real belief that he didn't commit the crimes' as the main sign of his psychopathy.
https://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11438.msg586851#msg586851
And you appear to be doing the same as Bamber
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=9346.0
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Please post up all these reports you believe exist.
If you had any evidence you would post it up but you don't just a claim made by a book author as posted by G-Unit
The mention of a defence psychiatrist by CAL was taken fron Blood Relations by Roger Wilkes. Perhaps this man's name is in that book? I don't have it. Rather scarily, he is reported to have seen Jeremy's 'very real belief that he didn't commit the crimes' as the main sign of his psychopathy.
https://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11438.msg586851#msg586851
Can you just clarify what you're saying, please. It sounds remarkably like it wouldn't matter to you HOW many professionals claimed that JB was a psychopath, and that unless it's written evidence, it's as good as not being said? Sounds a little blinkered.
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Please post up all these reports you believe exist.
Bamber has kept his pre trial assessment reports from his supporters Holly
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It was Judge Ann Power Forde who referred to ‘Hope’ re Bamber’s full life tariff
Judge Power Forde
“Those who commit the most abhorrent and egregious of acts and who inflict untold suffering upon others, nevertheless retain their fundamental humanity and carry within themselves the capacity to change. Long and deserved though their prison sentences may be, they retain the right to hope that, someday, they may have atoned for the wrongs which they have committed. They ought not to be deprived entirely of such hope. To deny them the experience of hope would be to deny a fundamental aspect of their humanity and, to do that, would be degrading.
VINTER AND OTHERS v. THE UNITED KINGDOM (Applications nos. 66069/09, 130/10 and 3896/10)
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I don't know why some people are so determined to insist that Jeremy Bamber is a psychopath. Even if they could offer evidence, which they haven't, it has no bearing on his guilt or innocence. More specifically it has nothing to do with 'the twin's future'.
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In the letter he drafted to NB where he was seeking his help to "try and convince SC" it would be best for her and the twins if they stayed with CC most of the time and SC could see them when she wished.
What was CC’s mood around the time he wrote this letter ?
It wasn’t sent was it?
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In the letter he drafted to NB where he was seeking his help to "try and convince SC" it would be best for her and the twins if they stayed with CC most of the time and SC could see them when she wished.
7 Steps to Writing an Angry Letter and Moving on
“Writing an angry letter is an emotionally healthy choice you can make to deal with anger that you are holding inside. Many times, you have anger at someone over a relationship that has happened over a period of time that left you with a lot of emotional wounds. Writing an angry letter can help you to process and release those feelings, and no one but you will ever know what the letter contained. It can make you feel so much better inside.
https://lifestyle.allwomenstalk.com/steps-to-writing-an-angry-letter-and-moving-on/
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What was CC’s mood around the time he wrote this letter ?
It wasn’t sent was it?
No iidea
And
No
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Bamber has kept his pre trial assessment reports from his supporters Holly
What is the prosecution entitled to have access to?
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There's nothing to dismiss out of hand because there's simply no evidence JB was or is a psychopath.
“Denial allows someone to keep going unchanged despite reality”
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/09/29/the_odd_body_denial/
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Can you just clarify what you're saying, please. It sounds remarkably like it wouldn't matter to you HOW many professionals claimed that JB was a psychopath, and that unless it's written evidence, it's as good as not being said? Sounds a little blinkered.
As blinkered as many refusing to accept the following from Prof Egan:
Professor Vincent Egan BSc (Hons).,Ph.D., D. Clin. Psy. Chartered Clinical Psychologist, Chartered Forensic Psychologist, Senior Lecturer in Forensic Psychology, University of Leicester, recently carried out a psychological assessment of Jeremy Bamber for a category A risk assessment review and he stated in his 14 page report:
“Jeremy has been previously assessed using the PCL-R and found non-psychopathic. My own assessment also found he did not meet caseness for clinical psychopathy, or even mild psychopathy.” He goes on to state “He did not meet caseness for any of the personality disorder dimensions.”
It has also been further suggested that Jeremy Bamber has used “Impression Management” to dupe the assessor into believing he has no psychopathy, nevertheless Professor Egan applied further tests to take this into account and noted:
“To examine whether Jeremy was exaggerating how he presented himself, he also completed the BIDR (Paulus, 1998). On this measure Jeremy was within the low-normal range for impression management and self-deception enhancement. These results suggest he was not presenting himself in an excessively anodyne way to bias the assessor.”
Professor Egan comments, “These findings suggest it is hard to sustain the view that Jeremy Bamber is so expert in deceptive self-presentation as to maintain this front for over a variety of different assessors, different assessment instruments and different times”
The assessment concludes with “Dangerous violent persons tend to be angry, alienated, impulsive and out of control, and none of these qualities appear to reflect Mr Bamber. Quite what the motive would be for something like the index offence being carried out by Mr Bamber again is very speculative, as is the proposition in the first place.”
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I thought he admitted to breaking into OCP and was found guilty in a court of law of mass murder by a majority verdict of 10/2 in 1986 and remains in prison to this day?
I believe he also grew cannabis for own use and distributed it for profit although the authorities didn't seem to want to pursue this unlike OCP.
Don’t do this again Holly
You posted
How can they be my 'projections' when Afaik noone in my adoptive family (or birth family) has ever suffered any mental illness or been involved in any criminality.
Surely any right thinking person would preclude a woman with June's history of mental illness from adopting?
I replied
JuB was never involved in ‘any criminality’ !
I edited my post at a specific time from JB to JuB you appear to have edited this *&^^&
I edited it at - Last Edit: Today at 12:50:52 PM by - you’ve edited it back in your quoted post to read JB as opposed to JuB
*&^^&
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I don't know why some people are so determined to insist that Jeremy Bamber is a psychopath. Even if they could offer evidence, which they haven't, it has no bearing on his guilt or innocence. More specifically it has nothing to do with 'the twin's future'.
He was diagnosed as a psychopath pre-trial. It has a LOT of bearing on this guilt.You seem determined to dismiss anything and everything that points to Bamber as the killer. Circumstantial evidence convicts people everyday - there comes a point when coincidences pass a level to be considered coincidences at all.
Specifically, the twins haven't got a future because they were murdered by a gun toting psychopath - the one you keep defending!
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What is the prosecution entitled to have access to?
I very much doubt his defence team offered up a report that showed Bamber to be a psychopath as part of the evidence - do you?
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He was diagnosed as a psychopath pre-trial. It has a LOT of bearing on this guilt.
It does and his 27 annual reports further support his original diagnosis as opposed to weaken it
He’s gone on to con many people
Overturning murder convictions on technicalities based on original pre trial assessment reports is big business for those involved with innocence fraud - as well as those who have genuinely been mis diagnosed
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As blinkered as many refusing to accept the following from Prof Egan:
Professor Vincent Egan BSc (Hons).,Ph.D., D. Clin. Psy. Chartered Clinical Psychologist, Chartered Forensic Psychologist, Senior Lecturer in Forensic Psychology, University of Leicester, recently carried out a psychological assessment of Jeremy Bamber for a category A risk assessment review and he stated in his 14 page report:
“Jeremy has been previously assessed using the PCL-R and found non-psychopathic. My own assessment also found he did not meet caseness for clinical psychopathy, or even mild psychopathy.” He goes on to state “He did not meet caseness for any of the personality disorder dimensions.”
It has also been further suggested that Jeremy Bamber has used “Impression Management” to dupe the assessor into believing he has no psychopathy, nevertheless Professor Egan applied further tests to take this into account and noted:
“To examine whether Jeremy was exaggerating how he presented himself, he also completed the BIDR (Paulus, 1998). On this measure Jeremy was within the low-normal range for impression management and self-deception enhancement. These results suggest he was not presenting himself in an excessively anodyne way to bias the assessor.”
Professor Egan comments, “These findings suggest it is hard to sustain the view that Jeremy Bamber is so expert in deceptive self-presentation as to maintain this front for over a variety of different assessors, different assessment instruments and different times”
The assessment concludes with “Dangerous violent persons tend to be angry, alienated, impulsive and out of control, and none of these qualities appear to reflect Mr Bamber. Quite what the motive would be for something like the index offence being carried out by Mr Bamber again is very speculative, as is the proposition in the first place.”
"Dangerous violent persons tend to be angry, alienated, impulsive and out of control, and none of these qualities appear to reflect Mr Bamber." I wonder how, when psychopaths are know to be masters of disguising who they are, he could possibly have arrived at that conclusion after a few brief meetings.
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"Dangerous violent persons tend to be angry, alienated, impulsive and out of control, and none of these qualities appear to reflect Mr Bamber." I wonder how, when psychopaths are know to be masters of disguising who they are, he could possibly have arrived at that conclusion after a few brief meetings.
Psychopaths are very much the opposite to that description. 8((()*/
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As blinkered as many refusing to accept the following from Prof Egan:
Professor Vincent Egan BSc (Hons).,Ph.D., D. Clin. Psy. Chartered Clinical Psychologist, Chartered Forensic Psychologist, Senior Lecturer in Forensic Psychology, University of Leicester, recently carried out a psychological assessment of Jeremy Bamber for a category A risk assessment review and he stated in his 14 page report:
“Jeremy has been previously assessed using the PCL-R and found non-psychopathic. My own assessment also found he did not meet caseness for clinical psychopathy, or even mild psychopathy.” He goes on to state “He did not meet caseness for any of the personality disorder dimensions.”
It has also been further suggested that Jeremy Bamber has used “Impression Management” to dupe the assessor into believing he has no psychopathy, nevertheless Professor Egan applied further tests to take this into account and noted:
“To examine whether Jeremy was exaggerating how he presented himself, he also completed the BIDR (Paulus, 1998). On this measure Jeremy was within the low-normal range for impression management and self-deception enhancement. These results suggest he was not presenting himself in an excessively anodyne way to bias the assessor.”
Professor Egan comments, “These findings suggest it is hard to sustain the view that Jeremy Bamber is so expert in deceptive self-presentation as to maintain this front for over a variety of different assessors, different assessment instruments and different times”
The assessment concludes with “Dangerous violent persons tend to be angry, alienated, impulsive and out of control, and none of these qualities appear to reflect Mr Bamber. Quite what the motive would be for something like the index offence being carried out by Mr Bamber again is very speculative, as is the proposition in the first place.”
@)(++(*
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He was diagnosed as a psychopath pre-trial. It has a LOT of bearing on this guilt.You seem determined to dismiss anything and everything that points to Bamber as the killer. Circumstantial evidence convicts people everyday - there comes a point when coincidences pass a level to be considered coincidences at all.
Specifically, the twins haven't got a future because they were murdered by a gun toting psychopath - the one you keep defending!
I don't know who committed the murders at White House Farm, but I do know that psychopathy isn't evidence of guilt, and even if it was there's no evidence of psychopathy anyway.
The twins were murdered, but I see no evidence that they were murdered by a psychopath. Paranoid schitzophrenics kill, and there was a fully diagnosed one on the scene.
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I don't know who committed the murders at White House Farm, but I do know that psychopathy isn't evidence of guilt, and even if it was there's no evidence of psychopathy anyway.
The twins were murdered, but I see no evidence that they were murdered by a psychopath. Paranoid schitzophrenics kill, and there was a fully diagnosed one on the scene.
I think we can leave aside an adequately medicated paranoid schizophrenic. That being said, what would you say would have been the mind set of anyone other than a mentally ill person who was capable of killing innocent children?
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What is the prosecution entitled to have access to?
What are pre trial hearings for?
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Don’t do this again Holly
You posted
I replied
I edited my post at a specific time from JB to JuB you appear to have edited this *&^^&
I edited it at - Last Edit: Today at 12:50:52 PM by - you’ve edited it back in your quoted post to read JB as opposed to JuB
*&^^&
Please stop attempting to cause trouble. I haven't edited any of your posts recently.
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What are pre trial hearings for?
What is the prosecution entitled to have access to?
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I don't know who committed the murders at White House Farm, but I do know that psychopathy isn't evidence of guilt, and even if it was there's no evidence of psychopathy anyway.
The twins were murdered, but I see no evidence that they were murdered by a psychopath. Paranoid schitzophrenics kill, and there was a fully diagnosed one on the scene.
That is true and it ended with her murder. There isn't a scintilla of any evidence however which can in any way support Sheila being involved in the tragedy. She was a victim along with the four others.
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Don’t do this again Holly
You posted
I replied
I edited my post at a specific time from JB to JuB you appear to have edited this *&^^&
I edited it at - Last Edit: Today at 12:50:52 PM by - you’ve edited it back in your quoted post to read JB as opposed to JuB
*&^^&
For the sake of clarity I have shown the name in full.
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He was diagnosed as a psychopath pre-trial. It has a LOT of bearing on this guilt.You seem determined to dismiss anything and everything that points to Bamber as the killer. Circumstantial evidence convicts people everyday - there comes a point when coincidences pass a level to be considered coincidences at all.
Specifically, the twins haven't got a future because they were murdered by a gun toting psychopath - the one you keep defending!
I agree totally.
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What is the prosecution entitled to have access to?
Nothing privy only to the defence that can assist the prosecution.
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For the sake of clarity I have shown the name in full.
This would be good if applied to everyone. I don't know who is meant half of the time.
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What is the prosecution entitled to have access to?
What discussions would the prosecution and defence had pre trial ?
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What is the prosecution entitled to have access to?
What happened in the Barry George case Holly?
What did Michael Mansfield say in the video you posted here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iJGmjFqFdE
A really good docu imo.
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I don't know who committed the murders at White House Farm, but I do know that psychopathy isn't evidence of guilt, and even if it was there's no evidence of psychopathy anyway.
The twins were murdered, but I see no evidence that they were murdered by a psychopath. Paranoid schitzophrenics kill, and there was a fully diagnosed one on the scene.
No one has said it's evidence of guilt - it's part of the evidence. However, you're using Sheila's illness in the same manner - supporters do that all of the time. Psychopaths also kill and many are quite cunning in their planning. There was indeed also a schizophrenic at the scene - a medicated one - so unlikely to masacre her entire family, unlike the psychopath, who almost got away with it.
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Please stop attempting to cause trouble. I haven't edited any of your posts recently.
You referred to June http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11438.msg587046#msg587046
I replied using JB for June (why would I have meant Bamber) then edited it to JuB afterwards you replied and had obviously changed it back to JB to forward quite blatant and obvious personal agenda
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I agree totally.
You believe the book excerpt posted up by Myster is evidence JB is a psychopath?
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You referred to June http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11438.msg587046#msg587046
I replied using JB for June then edited it to JuB afterwards you relied and had obviously changed it back to JB to forward obvious personal agenda
I have not edited any of your posts today.
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I have not edited any of your posts today.
You edited in your response Holly
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You believe the book excerpt posted up by Myster is evidence JB is a psychopath?
Are you suggesting that the author may not have acquired that information from a professional? Surely, it's more about belief in an expert, as opposed to an excerpt?
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You edited in your response Holly
I have not edited any of your posts today. End of.
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Are you suggesting that the author may not have acquired that information from a professional? Surely, it's more about belief in an expert, as opposed to an excerpt?
How is that excerpt evidence of anything?
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You believe the book excerpt posted up by Myster is evidence JB is a psychopath?
Would the defence have allowed the jury to be told Bamber was a psychopath
The prosecution knew he was Holly as did the defence
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You believe the book excerpt posted up by Myster is evidence JB is a psychopath?
Several individuals who knew him were of the same opinion, amongst them was his own defence team. I believe the words used were 'psychopathic tendencies'. I remember discussing this quite some time ago and providing some research which showed that young men were prone to psychopath disorders but that in many cases the disorder had wained or disappeared by middle age.
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How is that excerpt evidence of anything?
Again, how is it not?
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How is that excerpt evidence of anything?
The excerpt isn't, but unless you're suggesting the author lied, the information is. If we put the boot on the other one, do you disregard as meaningless, any view which supports Jeremy's innocence, or do you insist on seeing it as written evidence?
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I believe it can also be argued that for a young man to commit such a dreadful deed there must have been some element of mental imbalance, disorder or psychopathic influences at play. IMO, no sane person could ever contemplate carrying out such a terrible crime.
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I believe it can also be argued that for a young man to commit such a dreadful deed there must have been some element of mental imbalance, disorder or psychopathic influences at play. IMO, no sane person could ever contemplate carrying out such a terrible crime.
Exactly and all because he couldn't wait for what he thought was his entitlement. He even excuse their lives away - the man IS a psychopath.
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Exactly and all because he couldn't wait for what he thought was his entitlement. He even excuse their lives away - the man IS a psychopath.
Who was he to make a judgement call on how Colin's life would be better without his children? Still, it gives us insight into his thought processes. I'd have liked to say, feelings, but......
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Who was he to make a judgement call on how Colin's life would be better without his children? Still, it gives us insight into his thought processes. I'd have liked to say, feelings, but......
A psychopath with a sense of entitlement.
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I didn't say they were supervised visits. I said CC took the twins to see SC so in effect they were supervised visits:
https://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11438.msg586795#msg586795
Ie SC was not left alone with them as CC was there. But I can in his second statement he states he had the twins 95% of the time from Mar to Aug and he allowed SC to have the twins at her flat the rest of the time which I assume was without the presence of CC and/or others.
CC claims Dr F told him SC would suffer the illness at increasing intervals. He was only going to permit SC limited unsupervised contact with the twins.
OK, you said “effectively “ they were supervised visits.
You INFERRED it
But you’re WRONG
Sheila sometimes had the twins at weekends, during the week, on her own.
She was alone with them: so how does that make them supervised visits?
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*%87
For someone who disbelieves experts, doctors, pathologists, psychiatrists, and respected authors...it’s amazing how Holly believes a convicted mass murderer!
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As blinkered as many refusing to accept the following from Prof Egan:
Professor Vincent Egan BSc (Hons).,Ph.D., D. Clin. Psy. Chartered Clinical Psychologist, Chartered Forensic Psychologist, Senior Lecturer in Forensic Psychology, University of Leicester, recently carried out a psychological assessment of Jeremy Bamber for a category A risk assessment review and he stated in his 14 page report:
“Jeremy has been previously assessed using the PCL-R and found non-psychopathic. My own assessment also found he did not meet caseness for clinical psychopathy, or even mild psychopathy.” He goes on to state “He did not meet caseness for any of the personality disorder dimensions.”
It has also been further suggested that Jeremy Bamber has used “Impression Management” to dupe the assessor into believing he has no psychopathy, nevertheless Professor Egan applied further tests to take this into account and noted:
“To examine whether Jeremy was exaggerating how he presented himself, he also completed the BIDR (Paulus, 1998). On this measure Jeremy was within the low-normal range for impression management and self-deception enhancement. These results suggest he was not presenting himself in an excessively anodyne way to bias the assessor.”
Professor Egan comments, “These findings suggest it is hard to sustain the view that Jeremy Bamber is so expert in deceptive self-presentation as to maintain this front for over a variety of different assessors, different assessment instruments and different times”
The assessment concludes with “Dangerous violent persons tend to be angry, alienated, impulsive and out of control, and none of these qualities appear to reflect Mr Bamber. Quite what the motive would be for something like the index offence being carried out by Mr Bamber again is very speculative, as is the proposition in the first place.”
That test is a load of BS. That’s why the British courts deem it inadmissible.
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I don't know who committed the murders at White House Farm, but I do know that psychopathy isn't evidence of guilt, and even if it was there's no evidence of psychopathy anyway.
The twins were murdered, but I see no evidence that they were murdered by a psychopath. Paranoid schitzophrenics kill, and there was a fully diagnosed one on the scene.
Paranoid Schizophrenics almost NEVER kill.
You really need to do research
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I don't know who committed the murders at White House Farm, but I do know that psychopathy isn't evidence of guilt, and even if it was there's no evidence of psychopathy anyway.
The twins were murdered, but I see no evidence that they were murdered by a psychopath. Paranoid schitzophrenics kill, and there was a fully diagnosed one on the scene.
You don’t know who did it? Then you must accept it’s possible Jeremy Bamber did it? And if he did do it you still refuse to countenance this as the behaviour of a psychopath? Really?
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For someone who disbelieves experts, doctors, pathologists, psychiatrists, and respected authors...it’s amazing how Holly believes a convicted mass murderer!
Under his ‘spell’ maybe or something else?
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He was diagnosed as a psychopath pre-trial. It has a LOT of bearing on this guilt.You seem determined to dismiss anything and everything that points to Bamber as the killer. Circumstantial evidence convicts people everyday - there comes a point when coincidences pass a level to be considered coincidences at all.
Specifically, the twins haven't got a future because they were murdered by a gun toting psychopath - the one you keep defending!
Questioning Bamber's guilt is NOT the same as defending him.
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You don’t know who did it? Then you must accept it’s possible Jeremy Bamber did it? And if he did do it you still refuse to countenance this as the behaviour of a psychopath? Really?
Why do people believe he's a psychopath when there's no evidence of it?
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That is true and it ended with her murder. There isn't a scintilla of any evidence however which can in any way support Sheila being involved in the tragedy. She was a victim along with the four others.
8((()*/
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Why do people believe he's a psychopath when there's no evidence of it?
There is loads but none that you would be prepared to accept.
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There is loads but none that you would be prepared to accept.
None that I have ever seen.
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There is loads but none that you would be prepared to accept.
Which test are we using?
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None that I have ever seen.
Then it would be a waste if time repeating it because you clearly have no wish to.
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Which test are we using?
We?
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We?
'We' as in whomever is labelling psychopathy - what's the test?
Bob Hare's checklist?
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'We' as in whomever is labelling psychopathy - what's the test?
Bob Hare's checklist?
No idea what test the psychiatrist used - why?
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No idea what test the psychiatrist used - why?
There's recognised tests used in diagnosis. It's not a finger in the air determination.
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There's recognised tests used in diagnosis. It's not a finger in the air determination.
Which many prisoners pass suggesting the tests or the testers or both aren’t working
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There's recognised tests used in diagnosis. It's not a finger in the air determination.
I have a degree in psychology - I know that. No one is sticking their finger in the air, But for someone who purports to believe Bamber guilty, do you think it's likely that, he's simply a normal functioning individual who had an off day?
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I'd say he fits all of these;
https://www.businessinsider.com/hare-psychopath-checklist-test-sociopath-2016-11?r=US&IR=T#19-have-you-ever-experienced-a-revocation-of-conditional-release-19
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I have a degree in psychology - I know that. No one is sticking their finger in the air, But for someone who purports to believe Bamber guilty, do you think it's likely that, he's simply a normal functioning individual who had an off day?
I don't know. I leave diagnoses to the experts, hence the question.
Who were the experts and what test did they use?
Or is everyone here simply using the convenient label they've become accustomed to?
Susan Atkins participated in at least 5 murders whilst a member of the Manson family, apparently killing Sharon Tate, plunging a knife in to her unborn 8 month old foetus, dipping her finger in and licking the blood. Was she a psychopath, despite never being diagnosed?
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I'd say he fits all of these;
https://www.businessinsider.com/hare-psychopath-checklist-test-sociopath-2016-11?r=US&IR=T#19-have-you-ever-experienced-a-revocation-of-conditional-release-19
There ya go - you just used the test.
So now we look at the physiology of psychopathy and the relationship of the limbic system, particularly the amygdala to psychopathic behaviour. That's another test, albeit probably not particularly identifiable with 1980's technology.
The point being, the test of a psychopath is not straightforward.
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I don't know. I leave diagnoses to the experts, hence the question.
Who were the experts and what test did they use?
Or is everyone here simply using the convenient label they've become accustomed to?
Susan Atkins participated in at least 5 murders whilst a member of the Manson family, apparently killing Sharon Tate, plunging a knife in to her unborn 8 month old foetus, dipping her finger in and licking the blood. Was she a psychopath, despite never being diagnosed?
No-one has been able to identify an expert as yet. I think the label is something people want to be true rather than something that they can show to be true.
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No-one has been able to identify an expert as yet. I think the label is something people want to be true rather than something that they can show to be true.
This is a good explanation.
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Why do people believe he's a psychopath when there's no evidence of it?
Perhaps because he is guilty of killing five people including two children in cold blood for monetary gain. If that’s not evidence of psychopathy, what would you call it?
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I don't know. I leave diagnoses to the experts, hence the question.
Who were the experts and what test did they use?
Or is everyone here simply using the convenient label they've become accustomed to?
Susan Atkins participated in at least 5 murders whilst a member of the Manson family, apparently killing Sharon Tate, plunging a knife in to her unborn 8 month old foetus, dipping her finger in and licking the blood. Was she a psychopath, despite never being diagnosed?
She was simply the tool of a psychopath, unless you don’t believe Charlie Manson was one?
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No-one has been able to identify an expert as yet. I think the label is something people want to be true rather than something that they can show to be true.
It may well be true; true in the sense that an experienced clinician has made a 'diagnosis' using known and trusted methods, although there's still some subjectivity involved.
It's now possible to medically diagnose limbic deficiencies corroborative with psychopathy, not that anyone has the will / funds / legal right, etc to test Bamber, nor would he acquiesce, using Pavlovian stimuli, amongst others, under controlled conditions.
This is by no means a defence, I know he did it, I'm interested in the neuroscientific aspects of criminality.
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She was simply the tool of a psychopath, unless you don’t believe Charlie Manson was one?
Ahh, OK, so if you believe the official 'Helter Skelter' narrative, then you admit that not all mass murderers are psychopaths? And a psychopath can impose his / her will to such an extent to induce impressionable, non-psychopathic subjects to kill on command?
Seems there's some wiggle room when perpetrating mass murder.
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Ahh, OK, so if you believe the official 'Helter Skelter' narrative, then you admit that not all mass murderers are psychopaths? And a psychopath can impose his / her will to such an extent to induce impressionable, non-psychopathic subjects to kill on command?
Seems there's some wiggle room when perpetrating mass murder.
As I have never said all mass murderers are psychopaths I have nothing to admit. Charles Manson did induce impressionable young people to do his bidding, unless you’re trying to tell me he was misunderstood?
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As I have never said all mass murderers are psychopaths I have nothing to admit.
So why is Jeremy Bamber a psychopath, given the example you just concurred with?
I am very aware that this is now on totally the wrong thread - apple oggies.
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She was simply the tool of a psychopath, unless you don’t believe Charlie Manson was one?
‘Tool of a psychopath’ ?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2w4lK3IWuFM
Charles Manson did induce impressionable young people to do his bidding
?
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So why is Jeremy Bamber a psychopath, given the example you just concurred with?
I am very aware that this is now on totally the wrong thread - apple oggies.
Because he wasn’t acting on instructions or under malign influence, and was motivated purely by hatred and greed.
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Are we saying that unless someone has been personally evaluated and received a clinical diagnosis by a psychiatrist of psychopathy that we are not allowed to refer to them as such? So I wouldn’t be allowed to refer to George Hodel as a psychopath then even though it’s as plain as the nose on your face that he was one?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Hodel
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Because he wasn’t acting on instructions or under malign influence, and was motivated purely by hatred and greed.
How do we square this dichotomy then? Susan Atkins - was told to do it - not a psychopath; Bamber - told himself to do it -psychopath.
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Are we saying that unless someone has been personally evaluated and received a clinical diagnosis by a psychiatrist of psychopathy that we are not allowed to refer to them as such? So I wouldn’t be allowed to refer to George Hodel as a psychopath then even though it’s as plain as the nose on your face that he was one?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Hodel
I see your Hodel and raise you a Kemper: one of the most notorious serial killers in American history - endeared himself to his psychiatrists by being a model prisoner, and was trained to administer psychiatric tests to other inmates. One of his psychiatrists later said: "He was a very good worker and this is not typical of a sociopath.
An atypical sociopath - whodathunkit?
Again, my point is this loose, convenient label is all it is. And, as distasteful as it may be to some, it is, in it's simplest term notwithstanding conditioning, etc, a simple deficiency of the limbic system (although research now suggests that 'fight or flight' may not be as impaired as first thought).
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How do we square this dichotomy then? Susan Atkins - was told to do it - not a psychopath; Bamber - told himself to do it -psychopath.
Maybe it was simply that he felt entitled. If the reasons for that are listed, it might be possible for you to understand his reasoning?
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Maybe it was simply that he felt entitled. If the reasons for that are listed, it might be possible for you to understand his reasoning?
It might be. Does a killer always have to be a psychopath? Again, hey, he might be a raving psychopath and, under neurological examination he may be found to be fitting the medical diagnosis. And I like the work of Bob Hare and subsequent research that has examined the field, such as Hoffman, but they have created a convenient monster.
It's said 1% of the general population is a 'psychopath' - that's about 30 million people worldwide in 1985, so there's a chance he is, particularly given that he killed his entire family and the general population of jails house between 15%-25% of all inmates being labelled psychopaths. The odds are not in his favour, I grant you. He scores highly on the Hare checklist and the PCL-R. But it's not definitive because we still haven't seen these tests ever having been conducted, as a minimum.
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How do we square this dichotomy then? Susan Atkins - was told to do it - not a psychopath; Bamber - told himself to do it -psychopath.
I don’t know if Susan Atkins was a psychopath, maybe she was but this thread is not about her. But in any case I don’t see a dichotomy.
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I see your Hodel and raise you a Kemper: one of the most notorious serial killers in American history - endeared himself to his psychiatrists by being a model prisoner, and was trained to administer psychiatric tests to other inmates. One of his psychiatrists later said: "He was a very good worker and this is not typical of a sociopath.
An atypical sociopath - whodathunkit?
Again, my point is this loose, convenient label is all it is. And, as distasteful as it may be to some, it is, in it's simplest term notwithstanding conditioning, etc, a simple deficiency of the limbic system (although research now suggests that 'fight or flight' may not be as impaired as first thought).
What’s a ‘psychopath’, a ‘DSPD’ and should Peter Sutcliffe ever be released? By Bob Johnson Consultant Psychiatrist
”GMTV recently asked me about Peter Sutcliffe. I see his horrendous crimes coming from a bucketful of hate within him. He wasn’t born with it – he acquired it by misadventure. If this bucket is now empty – free him (so long as he compensates his victims for life) – if not, don’t. You empty this bucket by persuading him to grow up emotionally, and convincing him that contrary to all his childhood programming, human beings are intrinsically benign and sociable. That’s what we did in C-Wing – and it worked. I reckon it’s saved over a dozen prison lives since – the prison’s computer could confirm this in minutes – if the Home Office would finally agree. It’s elementary, humane common sense – if you want to stop people murdering and being violent, stop treating them hatefully – and they will.. Let’s get legal.
“Dr Bob Johnson is a consultant psychiatrist, author and Co-founder of the James Nayler Foundation. Formerly Head of Therapy at Ashworth Maximum Security Hospital, he was also Consultant Psychiatrist, Special Unit, C-Wing, Parkhurst Prison 1991-1996.
https://insidetime.org/whats-a-psychopath-a-dspd-and-should-peter-sutcliffe-ever-be-released/
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I don’t know if Susan Atkins was a psychopath, maybe she was but this thread is not about her. But in any case I don’t see a dichotomy.
It's the wrong thread, granted, but she's an example - a pertinent example of the vagaries of the label.
That's the dichotomy you can't see.
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It might be. Does a killer always have to be a psychopath? Again, hey, he might be a raving psychopath and, under neurological examination he may be found to be fitting the medical diagnosis. And I like the work of Bob Hare and subsequent research that has examined the field, such as Hoffman, but they have created a convenient monster.
It's said 1% of the general population is a 'psychopath' - that's about 30 million people worldwide in 1985, so there's a chance he is, particularly given that he killed his entire family and the general population of jails house between 15%-25% of all inmates being labelled psychopaths. The odds are not in his favour, I grant you. He scores highly on the Hare checklist and the PCL-R. But it's not definitive because we still haven't seen these tests ever having been conducted, as a minimum.
Define "killer". If you're a purist who believes that all taking of another's life is murder, then No, NOT all killers are psychopaths. If, however, the taking of another's life is done, without showing regard for that life, for gain, be it financial, sexual, or position, and the murderer presents their rational justification for it, I'd say they were a psychopath.
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I don't know. I leave diagnoses to the experts, hence the question.
Who were the experts and what test did they use?
Or is everyone here simply using the convenient label they've become accustomed to?
Susan Atkins participated in at least 5 murders whilst a member of the Manson family, apparently killing Sharon Tate, plunging a knife in to her unborn 8 month old foetus, dipping her finger in and licking the blood. Was she a psychopath, despite never being diagnosed?
Does the fact that she wasn't diagnosed make her not a psychopath? I'd say from this video, still showing now emotion and passing off blame on to others. Yep, pretty much!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0q-LiARYmqc
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Colin’s never lied about a thing: everything he’s said has been substantiated. Dr Ferguson never said Sheila would get “worse” — schizophrenia is controllable with medication — and Sheila only had it MILDLY.
None of this fictitious nonsense makes sense: if Dr Ferguson truly said Sheila would get worse arrangements would have been put into place immediately for Colin to have sole custody of the twins, and all visits to Sheila would have been supervised.
It’s all rubbish.
It could be put down to cannabis use when she had these episodes of deep depression and metal traumatic episodes and mis diagnosed.
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Does the fact that she wasn't diagnosed make her not a psychopath? I'd say from this video, still showing now emotion and passing off blame on to others. Yep, pretty much!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0q-LiARYmqc
OK, so what would you say if I said that it is highly unlikely she killed anyone?
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There ya go - you just used the test.
So now we look at the physiology of psychopathy and the relationship of the limbic system, particularly the amygdala to psychopathic behaviour. That's another test, albeit probably not particularly identifiable with 1980's technology.
The point being, the test of a psychopath is not straightforward.
I didn't use the test, I gave it as an example because you mentioned it.
I really don't think I said it was straight forward. However, what I do know is, that if a man is responsible for killing his family in clod blood- which includes 2 six year old children, simply to inherit early and then pass the blame onto one of those victims - he pretty much fits the bill of a psychopath. Perhaps not in your mind - which is kind of strange given that you also think he's guilty? Or do you?
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Define "killer". If you're a purist who believes that all taking of another's life is murder, then No, NOT all killers are psychopaths. If, however, the taking of another's life is done, without showing regard for that life, for gain, be it financial, sexual, or position, and the murderer presents their rational justification for it, I'd say they were a psychopath.
and 3 decades plus of innocence fraud
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-4867216/Dr-Max-s-wrong-call-Trump-mentally-ill.html?ITO=1490
And yes I know Trump hasn't killed anyone but the article is interesting and explains how in the US it is against the law for a psychiatrist to provide a diagnosis without actually meeting the individual.
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and 3 decades plus of innocence fraud
But of course! Nothing is ever their fault.
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OK, so what would you say if I said that it is highly unlikely she killed anyone?
Then I would say you contradicted yourself in your previous post.
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It might be. Does a killer always have to be a psychopath? Again, hey, he might be a raving psychopath and, under neurological examination he may be found to be fitting the medical diagnosis. And I like the work of Bob Hare and subsequent research that has examined the field, such as Hoffman, but they have created a convenient monster.
It's said 1% of the general population is a 'psychopath' - that's about 30 million people worldwide in 1985, so there's a chance he is, particularly given that he killed his entire family and the general population of jails house between 15%-25% of all inmates being labelled psychopaths. The odds are not in his favour, I grant you. He scores highly on the Hare checklist and the PCL-R. But it's not definitive because we still haven't seen these tests ever having been conducted, as a minimum.
No, not all killers are psychopaths and not all psychopaths are killers. You asked me earlier if Bamber had been tested using PLC-R but then here you suggest it simply creates a convenient monster. I don't think the test lives up to it's claims and it certainly isn't infallible. There are far better ways of detecting psychopathy now, that doesn't rely on subjects response. Perhaps someone should encourage Bamber to undergo a brain scan - that won't lie!
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It might be. Does a killer always have to be a psychopath? Again, hey, he might be a raving psychopath and, under neurological examination he may be found to be fitting the medical diagnosis. And I like the work of Bob Hare and subsequent research that has examined the field, such as Hoffman, but they have created a convenient monster.
It's said 1% of the general population is a 'psychopath' - that's about 30 million people worldwide in 1985, so there's a chance he is, particularly given that he killed his entire family and the general population of jails house between 15%-25% of all inmates being labelled psychopaths. The odds are not in his favour, I grant you. He scores highly on the Hare checklist and the PCL-R. But it's not definitive because we still haven't seen these tests ever having been conducted, as a minimum.
You haven’t included the stats for those individuals who work within prisons (not inmates) who are also psychopaths
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I don’t know if Susan Atkins was a psychopath, maybe she was but this thread is not about her. But in any case I don’t see a dichotomy.
I do in that Atkins is b....r all to do with Bamber.
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But of course! Nothing is ever their fault.
I would suggest JB knows he did it and just doesn't want to do the time. That doesn't make him a psychopath.
If a child steals a sweet from a shop does that make him/her a psychopath if he /she denies it when caught?
Sometimes name calling can stick with no evidence. He is a murderer, who doesn't want to do the time.
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I would suggest JB knows he did it and just doesn't want to do the time. That doesn't make him a psychopath.
If a child steals a sweet from a shop does that make him/her a psychopath if he /she denies it when caught?
Sometimes name calling can stick with no evidence. He is a murderer, who doesn't want to do the time.
Stealing sweets and killing 5 people for inheritance and blaming one of the victims is just a tad different. Bamber won't admit to the crime because he would have to admit to being a child killer. He has no choice about doing the time, his choice is in taking responsibility or not. The evidence is the cold and callous nature of his crime and his continued denial.
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-4867216/Dr-Max-s-wrong-call-Trump-mentally-ill.html?ITO=1490
And yes I know Trump hasn't killed anyone but the article is interesting and explains how in the US it is against the law for a psychiatrist to provide a diagnosis without actually meeting the individual.
Like I said, not all psychopaths are killers.
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It's the wrong thread, granted, but she's an example - a pertinent example of the vagaries of the label.
That's the dichotomy you can't see.
That’s clearly because I’m an idiot, thanks for the reminder Oh Wise One.
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Stealing sweets and killing 5 people for inheritance and blaming one of the victims is just a tad different. Bamber won't admit to the crime because he would have to admit to being a child killer. He has no choice about doing the time, his choice is in taking responsibility or not. The evidence is the cold and callous nature of his crime and his continued denial.
I don't think his killing spree is evidence of him being a psychopath. He did kill in cold blood because he wanted to and may have enjoyed doing it, but that can be put down to a 'single incident' where as, do we believe he would become a serial killer in the public domain had he been set free? No one knows and predicting is not a science.
He is enjoying his manipulation and adulation he has acquired- all swings and roundabouts. He knows he is guilty- he just doesn't want to be punished for it. That was the reason I mentioned the child with sweets.
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That’s clearly because I’m an idiot, thanks for the reminder Oh Wise One.
You're not an idiot but there does appear to be a game afoot!
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I don't think his killing spree is evidence of him being a psychopath. He did kill in cold blood because he wanted to and may have enjoyed doing it, but that can be put down to a 'single incident' where as, do we believe he would become a serial killer in the public domain had he been set free? No one knows and predicting is not a science.
He is enjoying his manipulation and adulation he has acquired- all swings and roundabouts. He knows he is guilty- he just doesn't want to be punished for it. That was the reason I mentioned the child with sweets.
What has serial killers got to do with it?
Your last paragraph is describing a psychopath. They don't have to be serial killers.
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I would suggest JB knows he did it and just doesn't want to do the time. That doesn't make him a psychopath.
If a child steals a sweet from a shop does that make him/her a psychopath if he /she denies it when caught?
Sometimes name calling can stick with no evidence. He is a murderer, who doesn't want to do the time.
It could do. If you can stealas a child without conscience or remorse then it could be a sign of the psychopathy to come.
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I don't think his killing spree is evidence of him being a psychopath. He did kill in cold blood because he wanted to and may have enjoyed doing it, but that can be put down to a 'single incident' where as, do we believe he would become a serial killer in the public domain had he been set free? No one knows and predicting is not a science.
He is enjoying his manipulation and adulation he has acquired- all swings and roundabouts. He knows he is guilty- he just doesn't want to be punished for it. That was the reason I mentioned the child with sweets.
Yes
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I don't think his killing spree is evidence of him being a psychopath. He did kill in cold blood because he wanted to and may have enjoyed doing it, but that can be put down to a 'single incident' where as, do we believe he would become a serial killer in the public domain had he been set free? No one knows and predicting is not a science.
He is enjoying his manipulation and adulation he has acquired- all swings and roundabouts. He knows he is guilty- he just doesn't want to be punished for it. That was the reason I mentioned the child with sweets.
I can imagine the loose end Julie having an "accident".. He might wait for his granny's inheritance but not if he got a chance to turn off her life support!
Once he had burned through the inheritance he would go after rich widows, making them take out life insurance policies and then drowning them in the bath until plod caught up with him.
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You're not an idiot but there does appear to be a game afoot!
I’m certainly not playing any games.
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I’m certainly not playing any games.
Not you
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Judge Power Forde
“Those who commit the most abhorrent and egregious of acts and who inflict untold suffering upon others, nevertheless retain their fundamental humanity and carry within themselves the capacity to change. Long and deserved though their prison sentences may be, they retain the right to hope that, someday, they may have atoned for the wrongs which they have committed. They ought not to be deprived entirely of such hope. To deny them the experience of hope would be to deny a fundamental aspect of their humanity and, to do that, would be degrading.
VINTER AND OTHERS v. THE UNITED KINGDOM (Applications nos. 66069/09, 130/10 and 3896/10)
Heidi Retweeted
JB Campaign LTD
@jbcampaignltd
#FF @jbcampaignltd @Bambertweets @JBamberFacebook @FreeBamberNow
"Hope is what keeps the human spirit alive – without hope there is nothing" #JeremyBamber
https://jeremy-bamber.co.uk #WhiteHouseFarm
12:22 PM · May 1, 2020·Twitter Web App
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-4867216/Dr-Max-s-wrong-call-Trump-mentally-ill.html?ITO=1490
And yes I know Trump hasn't killed anyone but the article is interesting and explains how in the US it is against the law for a psychiatrist to provide a diagnosis without actually meeting the individual.
But the prison psychiatrist interviewed Jeremy over many sessions when he was on remand, and that’s how he came to his conclusion that “Jeremy Bamber is an irreverent liar; a psychopath; and I believe 100% he’s guilty”
Likewise, the psychiatrist JB’s defence team employed to assess him gave the same diagnosis after seeing him (how many times I don’t know) He certified that Jeremy Bamber was a psychopath: and that’s why the defence didn’t produce it in court.
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But the prison psychiatrist interviewed Jeremy over many sessions when he was on remand, and that’s how he came to his conclusion that “Jeremy Bamber is an irreverent liar; a psychopath; and I believe 100% he’s guilty”
Likewise, the psychiatrist JB’s defence team employed to assess him gave the same diagnosis after seeing him (how many times I don’t know) He certified that Jeremy Bamber was a psychopath: and that’s why the defence didn’t produce it in court.
I think it's "inveterate" liar, Spy. Irreverent is when you pretend to be a vicar. Like Dick Emery.
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Why do people believe he's a psychopath when there's no evidence of it?
OK, without the psychiatrists who did diagnose Jeremy Bamber a psychopath, you tell me if you could creep into a bedroom and see two little boys sleeping peacefully in their beds, one sucking his thumb, both surrounded by their soft cuddly toys, their sweet angelic faces and blond hair against their pillows, their cups of orange juice by their side, their next days new clothes laid out for them to wear the next day....then as you look at their faces you raise that long rifle, point it directly at their head and face, and pull that trigger to effectively blow their their brains out?
Jeremy Bamber did that.
He was found guilty due to ALL the overwhelming evidence.
And you don’t believe he’s a psychopath? Really??
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There's recognised tests used in diagnosis. It's not a finger in the air determination.
That “recognised test” created by a psychologist isn’t taken seriously by experts. Anyone can give the appropriate answers out of a selection of answers which would give the result they know would hide their psychopathy.
I’ve seen the test and did it myself, as has CS.
CS got two different results when deliberately answering according to the result he wanted.
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I don't know. I leave diagnoses to the experts, hence the question.
Who were the experts and what test did they use?
Or is everyone here simply using the convenient label they've become accustomed to?
Susan Atkins participated in at least 5 murders whilst a member of the Manson family, apparently killing Sharon Tate, plunging a knife in to her unborn 8 month old foetus, dipping her finger in and licking the blood. Was she a psychopath, despite never being diagnosed?
Are you implying Jeremy Bamber has the same mental condition as Susan Atkins?
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There ya go - you just used the test.
So now we look at the physiology of psychopathy and the relationship of the limbic system, particularly the amygdala to psychopathic behaviour. That's another test, albeit probably not particularly identifiable with 1980's technology.
The point being, the test of a psychopath is not straightforward.
That’s not the test Jeremy Bamber took, General.
And your copying text highlights you have no understanding, otherwise you’d use your own words.
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That “recognised test” created by a psychologist isn’t taken seriously by experts. Anyone can give the appropriate answers out of a selection of answers which would give the result they know would hide their psychopathy.
I’ve seen the test and did it myself, as has CS.
CS got two different results when deliberately answering according to the result he wanted.
Yep.
If a psychiatrist asks you how it makes you feel when someone lets you down, cuts you up in traffic or insults you, don't answer, "I feel like murdering them and pulling out their insides for their mother to find" unless you want to score low!
I'm not convinced by these tests anymore than by a polygraph, whatever result they give. Bambers actions in murdering his family score points on my psychopathy meter.
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Yep.
If a psychiatrist asks you how it makes you feel when someone lets you down, cuts you up in traffic or insults you, don't answer, "I feel like murdering them and pulling out their insides for their mother to find" unless you want to score low!
I'm not convinced by these tests anymore than by a polygraph, whatever result they give. Bambers actions in murdering his family score points on my psychopathy meter.
8((()*/
The tests are being abused and have been abused for years
You only need look at some of the CCRC’s case referrals to recognise this
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I would suggest JB knows he did it and just doesn't want to do the time. That doesn't make him a psychopath.
If a child steals a sweet from a shop does that make him/her a psychopath if he /she denies it when caught?
Sometimes name calling can stick with no evidence. He is a murderer, who doesn't want to do the time.
I can’t believe you’re comparing the two — do you think a child stealing a sweet is the same as an adult man shooting dead five members his family: his parents, sister and two six-year-old nephews?
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That’s not the test Jeremy Bamber took, General.
And your copying text highlights you have no understanding, otherwise you’d use your own words.
Feel free to find that body of text anywhere else on the internet, particularly comprising the grammatical error. My bad.
I wouldn't be so quick to judge others using your own shortcomings as a yardstick.
Besides - that is THE test. And patients are evaluated, it's not a quiz, they don't answer themselves.
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Yep.
If a psychiatrist asks you how it makes you feel when someone lets you down, cuts you up in traffic or insults you, don't answer, "I feel like murdering them and pulling out their insides for their mother to find" unless you want to score low!
I'm not convinced by these tests anymore than by a polygraph, whatever result they give. Bambers actions in murdering his family score points on my psychopathy meter.
I have answered several of them as exercises when doing my degree. There are usually lots of questions but only some of the answers are scored, it's not difficult to work out which are important and which aren't.
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I can’t believe you’re comparing the two — do you think a child stealing a sweet is the same as an adult man shooting dead five members his family: his parents, sister and two six-year-old nephews?
That's not a comparison, it's an analogy.
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That's not a comparison, it's an analogy.
https://literarydevices.net/analogy/
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https://literarydevices.net/analogy/
Go ed girl.
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I don't think his killing spree is evidence of him being a psychopath. He did kill in cold blood because he wanted to and may have enjoyed doing it, but that can be put down to a 'single incident' where as, do we believe he would become a serial killer in the public domain had he been set free? No one knows and predicting is not a science.
He is enjoying his manipulation and adulation he has acquired- all swings and roundabouts. He knows he is guilty- he just doesn't want to be punished for it. That was the reason I mentioned the child with sweets.
He displayed all the characteristics of a psychopath before he killed his family, and he still hasn’t shown any remorse...so that’s further evidence he’s devoid of normal emotions. So no, he will never be released.
After he was convicted, then appealed, his sentence was increased to Life Without Parole. LWP replaced hanging, which proves how convinced the Home Secretary knew how dangerous JB is. He proved he’s capable of killing his own family for greed, yet still denies it. That “one-off” as you describe it wasn’t a minor impulsive moment of anger where he’d punched his father, he’d been plotting and planning to murder his family for over a year. Who’s to say he wouldn’t do the same again? Or seek revenge on those he has an irrational hate against?
He isn’t just locked up for the safety of others, he’s locked up because what he did was evil beyond belief. Do you think the parole board (which he has no access to) would say “OK, Jeremy, you can go now. We’ve all forgotten how you shot dead your family and cut short their lives, robbed two children of having a life — we’ll let you enjoy the rest of YOUR life — go and have fun and the taxpayer will support you while you do”...
As for him enjoying the “adulation” he gets, I don’t think he does. The adulation he gets is from a handful of misfits of society who he secretly despises because he knows they’re only in contact with him as they’re desperate, weird, and have to resort to someone like him because that’s the only attention they can get.
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Yep.
If a psychiatrist asks you how it makes you feel when someone lets you down, cuts you up in traffic or insults you, don't answer, "I feel like murdering them and pulling out their insides for their mother to find" unless you want to score low!
I'm not convinced by these tests anymore than by a polygraph, whatever result they give. Bambers actions in murdering his family score points on my psychopathy meter.
You’ve cracked it, CS (&^&
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I will believe you when you can provide reliable evidence of who diagnosed Bamber's psychopathy and when.
Why can’t you answer ISpy’s question? Imagine we are not discussing Jeremy for a moment. Imagine we are talking about a random male who shoots dead two sleeping children as part of a plan to get his hands on the entirety of his family’s inheritance. What sort of a person is able to do that? One with empathy? A deep regard for human life? A strong moral compass? A kind, caring sort? Someone who is risk averse?
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Why can’t you answer ISpy’s question? Imagine we are not discussing Jeremy for a moment. Imagine we are talking about a random male who shoots dead two sleeping children as part of a plan to get his hands on the entirety of his family’s inheritance. What sort of a person is able to do that? One with empathy? A deep regard for human life? A strong moral compass? A kind, caring sort? Someone who is risk averse?
Some one with a cold calculated mind,is that a trait of a psycho?
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That's not a comparison, it's an analogy.
An analogy is a thing which is comparable to something else in significant respects; so it is comparing something that is similar.
Thus, it is indeed a comparison 😌
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Some one with a cold calculated mind,is that a trait of a psycho?
yes, it’s one of the traits.
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There are numerous psychopaths through history that never sat down with a psychiatrist and received a formal assessment of their psychopathy. How are we able to deduce they were psychopaths?
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There are numerous psychopaths through history that never sat down with a psychiatrist and received a formal assessment of their psychopathy. How are we able to deduce they were psychopaths?
Jack the Ripper was never even caught, but he was obviously a psychopath.
In a sick way, what Jeremy Bamber has done is even more psychopathic and cold-hearted than Jack. Jack the Ripper got sexual gratification out of murdering prostitutes, which is evil, I know — but Jeremy Bamber killed his own family including two little boys for GREED. That’s the epitome of a psychopath — to kill out of sheer ruthlessness and greed.
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No you won’t.
Even if the professor of psychiatry himself told you to your face that Jeremy Bamber is a psychopath you’d say he’s either wrong, lying, or has an agenda
You’re in denial and there’s no point explaining things to you because you refuse to listen
My you're clever! 8**8:/: Not only do you know everything about the case (not) you know everything about me. Or do you? Most of your 'facts' about the case you are unable to confirm and your attempts to work out my motives, character and reactions are quite frankly laughable. Just stick to providing verifiable facts and leave the psychoanalysis of me and Jeremy Bamber to those qualified to carry it out. Who were those who psychoanalised Bamber again? Oh yes, you don't know, you appear to be relying on a rumour.
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Who were those who psychoanalised Bamber again?
Do you think when Bamber’s had his annual assessments he’s been rigorously ‘psychoanalised’ ?
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Can we get back on topic please!! Thank you.
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Do you think when Bamber’s had his annual assessments he’s been rigorously ‘psychoanalised’ ?
I don't know anything about these assessments.
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Jack the Ripper was never even caught, but he was obviously a psychopath.
In a sick way, what Jeremy Bamber has done is even more psychopathic and cold-hearted than Jack. Jack the Ripper got sexual gratification out of murdering prostitutes, which is evil, I know — but Jeremy Bamber killed his own family including two little boys for GREED. That’s the epitome of a psychopath — to kill out of sheer ruthlessness and greed.
It was like a business transaction. His lack of grief afterward and immediate visit to Basil Cock confirmed for many that he is one cold SOB.
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It was like a business transaction. His lack of grief afterward and immediate visit to Basil Cock confirmed for many that he is one cold SOB.
As so much farmland and employees were involved it makes sense that someone had to run Nevill's company, so it's perfectly possible that Mr Cock called the meeting to deal with that urgent question. It could be said that the family behaved coldly too. They very quickly intervened to ensure that Peter Eaton was appointed to manage N & J Bamber.
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As so much farmland and employees were involved it makes sense that someone had to run Nevill's company, so it's perfectly possible that Mr Cock called the meeting to deal with that urgent question. It could be said that the family behaved coldly too. They very quickly intervened to ensure that Peter Eaton was appointed to manage N & J Bamber.
I understood the request came from Jeremy. Someone had to see to the day to day running of the farm. Jeremy didn't intend it was to be he who did it.
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As so much farmland and employees were involved it makes sense that someone had to run Nevill's company, so it's perfectly possible that Mr Cock called the meeting to deal with that urgent question. It could be said that the family behaved coldly too. They very quickly intervened to ensure that Peter Eaton was appointed to manage N & J Bamber.
There you go again making excuses for Bamber, it's wasn't Peter Eaton's parents or Ann Eaton's. At that point, they didn't know they would benefit from the business. Running it for Bamber and keeping people employed was a good thing, don't try and make it into something sinister when you don't seem to be able to see any of the sinister aspects of Bamber's behaviour and character!
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As so much farmland and employees were involved it makes sense that someone had to run Nevill's company, so it's perfectly possible that Mr Cock called the meeting to deal with that urgent question. It could be said that the family behaved coldly too. They very quickly intervened to ensure that Peter Eaton was appointed to manage N & J Bamber.
I thought the request came from Jeremy. Someone had to be responsible for the day to day running of the farm and Jeremy clearly didn't intend to do it himself.
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Please note that the original thread has been separated into three new threads given the frequency of off-topic posts.
Please post according to the thread title. Thank you!
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As so much farmland and employees were involved it makes sense that someone had to run Nevill's company, so it's perfectly possible that Mr Cock called the meeting to deal with that urgent question. It could be said that the family behaved coldly too. They very quickly intervened to ensure that Peter Eaton was appointed to manage N & J Bamber.
I can't be bothered to check but I think the family did at least bother to turn up to the memorial service. BC would be highly insensitive to call a meeting the day after the murders would he not - and JB could have deferred if he was in shock and trying to come to terms with events. It's not like the farm workers would have not understood if their wages were a bit late.
In answer to the question posed by the thread topic, yes he did to this layman's eyes, even if you put aside him being responsible for the murders.
The question should also include, does he still display psychopathic traits and again my answer is yes. The graveside reading alone shows that his thinking just isn't normal. I think this is partly why his more credible supporters ignore the CT and everything he does as it poses uncomfortable questions with even more uncomfortable answers.
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I can't be bothered to check but I think the family did at least bother to turn up to the memorial service. BC would be highly insensitive to call a meeting the day after the murders would he not - and JB could have deferred if he was in shock and trying to come to terms with events. It's not like the farm workers would have not understood if their wages were a bit late.
In answer to the question posed by the thread topic, yes he did to this layman's eyes, even if you put aside him being responsible for the murders.
The question should also include, does he still display psychopathic traits and again my answer is yes. The graveside reading alone shows that his thinking just isn't normal. I think this is partly why his more credible supporters ignore the CT and everything he does as it poses uncomfortable questions with even more uncomfortable answers.
I've seen mention of this graveside reading before - can you tell me briefly what happened please?
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I've seen mention of this graveside reading before - can you tell me briefly what happened please?
Better than that!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsUyH-5t3S4
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I can't be bothered to check but I think the family did at least bother to turn up to the memorial service. BC would be highly insensitive to call a meeting the day after the murders would he not - and JB could have deferred if he was in shock and trying to come to terms with events. It's not like the farm workers would have not understood if their wages were a bit late.
In answer to the question posed by the thread topic, yes he did to this layman's eyes, even if you put aside him being responsible for the murders.
The question should also include, does he still display psychopathic traits and again my answer is yes. The graveside reading alone shows that his thinking just isn't normal. I think this is partly why his more credible supporters ignore the CT and everything he does as it poses uncomfortable questions with even more uncomfortable answers.
Jeremy Bamber was arrested on murder charges on the 8th September 1985, he has been incarcerated ever since. It must be extremely difficult to quantify his true cognitive capabilities these days given he has been in prison for almost 35 years. His 'normal' just isn't what we all perceive it to be.
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Jeremy Bamber was arrested on murder charges on the 8th September 1985, he has been incarcerated ever since. It must be extremely difficult to quantify his true cognitive capabilities these days given he has been in prison for almost 35 years.
Having written to him for a few years, he pretty switched on. Remember he keeps himself busy with quite a responsible job. He is obsessed with getting out and he will use any little think to try and convince people he's innocent. I think he may have issues in the outside world - I think he would struggle after the attention stopped.
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Having written to him for a few years, he pretty switched on. Remember he keeps himself busy with quite a responsible job. He is obsessed with getting out and he will use any little think to try and convince people he's innocent. I think he may have issues in the outside world - I think he would struggle after the attention stopped.
He makes a very interesting examination specimen for clinical psychologists. He serves no other purpose as a human being.
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He makes a very interesting examination specimen for clinical psychologists. He serves no other purpose as a human being.
Whoa! He actually does do some good where he is, he works helping other prisoners to read and write, and has won awards for transcribing books in the prison's Braille workshop. If he came out, he's burn himself out in a haste to live out what he thinks he's missed. Not that that should be a reason to keep him inside - he deserves to be there - but at least he is helping people, that is some recompense - if only a small one.
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Jeremy Bamber was arrested on murder charges on the 8th September 1985, he has been incarcerated ever since. It must be extremely difficult to quantify his true cognitive capabilities these days given he has been in prison for almost 35 years. His 'normal' just isn't what we all perceive it to be.
It's a fair point, but I will say the graveside stunt appeared to be nothing more than an attempt to manipulate his supporters.
I should have used his letters to CC to illustrate
Those weren't an angry text message sent in a heat of the moment, he had time to think about it, put himself in Colins shoes and decide not to send it. The nasty bile that was sent when his attempts at manipulating CC failed was designed to be as hurtful to Colin as possible and I have little doubt that Bamber enjoyed the thought of causing him pain.
I'm pretty sure that attempts at manipulation and a desire to hurt others, perhaps relishing in their pain registers on the psychopathy scale but admit, I am no psychiatrist.
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It's a fair point, but I will say the graveside stunt appeared to be nothing more than an attempt to manipulate his supporters.
I should have used his letters to CC to illustrate
Those weren't an angry text message sent in a heat of the moment, he had time to think about it, put himself in Colins shoes and decide not to send it. The nasty bile that was sent when his attempts at manipulating CC failed was designed to be as hurtful to Colin as possible and I have little doubt that Bamber enjoyed the thought of causing him pain.
I'm pretty sure that attempts at manipulation and a desire to hurt others, perhaps relishing in their pain registers on the psychopathy scale but admit, I am no psychiatrist.
He still harbours a grudge against Colin.
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It's a fair point, but I will say the graveside stunt appeared to be nothing more than an attempt to manipulate his supporters.
I should have used his letters to CC to illustrate
Those weren't an angry text message sent in a heat of the moment, he had time to think about it, put himself in Colins shoes and decide not to send it. The nasty bile that was sent when his attempts at manipulating CC failed was designed to be as hurtful to Colin as possible and I have little doubt that Bamber enjoyed the thought of causing him pain.
I'm pretty sure that attempts at manipulation and a desire to hurt others, perhaps relishing in their pain registers on the psychopathy scale but admit, I am no psychiatrist.
It isn't necessary to be a psychiatrist to understand that anyone deriving pleasure from hurting others is unlikely to be a person who's happy with their lot.
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Having written to him for a few years, he pretty switched on. Remember he keeps himself busy with quite a responsible job. He is obsessed with getting out and he will use any little think to try and convince people he's innocent. I think he may have issues in the outside world - I think he would struggle after the attention stopped.
I would imagine any prisoner who had done 35 years would have issues adapting to the outside world.
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I would imagine any prisoner who had done 35 years would have issues adapting to the outside world.
Best leave him where he is then! 8((()*/
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It's a fair point, but I will say the graveside stunt appeared to be nothing more than an attempt to manipulate his supporters.
I should have used his letters to CC to illustrate
Those weren't an angry text message sent in a heat of the moment, he had time to think about it, put himself in Colins shoes and decide not to send it. The nasty bile that was sent when his attempts at manipulating CC failed was designed to be as hurtful to Colin as possible and I have little doubt that Bamber enjoyed the thought of causing him pain.
I'm pretty sure that attempts at manipulation and a desire to hurt others, perhaps relishing in their pain registers on the psychopathy scale but admit, I am no psychiatrist.
Psychopaths get pleasure from being sadistic; they enjoy inflicting pain — it excites them.
But not all psychopaths become murderers, few do, in fact. Many can lead seemingly normal lives, in fact, very successful ones. Tycoons are often psychopathic and the reason they get so rich is that they’re ruthless and don’t care who they hurt while they tread on everyone to get where they want.
Jeremy Bamber was prepared to kill his family so the twins would never inherit a share, and he also wanted the money without waiting possibly 20 years or so. That shows how ruthless he is. He also displayed sadistic tendencies as a child when throwing stones at baby ducklings and hitting little animals with big sticks: it made Sheila cry and he got pleasure from that too.
He got pleasure from tricking June into putting her hand in his pockets he’d hidden rats in.
Pleasure from cycling round and round June then pulling up sharply.
He later got pleasure from psychologically abusing his girlfriends. He’d raise their hopes, then let them down. Flirt with others in front of them. Play mind games. Make them feel worthless and dependent on him. And he’s still doing it now. He uses the majority of women who write to him, pretends he fancies them, and then starts asking for money. He got pleasure by allowing Daisy to travel all the way to visit him, just so he could see her crestfallen face as he spat “I never liked you anyway!”
He’s as evil and psychopathic now as he was when he murdered his family: he’s just learned how to hide his deep hate because he realises it doesn’t benefit him.