UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧

Alleged Miscarriages of Justice => Jeremy Bamber and the callous murder of his father, mother, sister and twin nephews. Case effectively CLOSED by CCRC on basis of NO APPEAL REFERRAL. => Topic started by: Holly Goodhead on May 21, 2020, 09:33:06 AM

Title: Those who agree with the trial verdict but continue to debate on forums
Post by: Holly Goodhead on May 21, 2020, 09:33:06 AM
For those who firmly believe JB guilty as charged why bother?

Some appear to get defensive and say words to the effect 'it's up to me how I spend my time'.  Or bizzarely they will say something like 'I'm just correcting what supporters spout'.

It takes all sorts I guess.  All the cases I've posted on here I either consider to be MOJ's: JB and Rettendon murders or the cases are unsolved: MM, murder of Jill Dando.

I couldn't be bothered to post on the Vincent Tabak thread as I believe him to be guilty as charged.

So can I ask what motivates those who firmly believe JB guilty as charged to continue posting.
Title: Re: Those who agree with the trial verdict but continue to debate on forums
Post by: kizzy on May 21, 2020, 09:41:55 AM
For those who firmly believe JB guilty as charged why bother?

Some appear to get defensive and say words to the effect 'it's up to me how I spend my time'.  Or bizzarely they will say something like 'I'm just correcting what supporters spout'.

It takes all sorts I guess.  All the cases I've posted on here I either consider to be MOJ's: JB and Rettendon murders or the cases are unsolved: MM, murder of Jill Dando.

I couldn't be bothered to post on the Vincent Tabak thread as I believe him to be guilty as charged.

So can I ask what motivates those who firmly believe JB guilty as charged to continue posting.


My thoughts exactly I was just thinking the same when I saw ISWMBE post-JB will be in prison till he dies.

So why spend endless days/hours on here - what is their point when as far as they are concerned he got what he deserved.

There must be more to it IMO
Title: Re: Those who agree with the trial verdict but continue to debate on forums
Post by: APRIL on May 21, 2020, 10:02:58 AM
For those who firmly believe JB guilty as charged why bother?

Some appear to get defensive and say words to the effect 'it's up to me how I spend my time'.  Or bizzarely they will say something like 'I'm just correcting what supporters spout'.

It takes all sorts I guess.  All the cases I've posted on here I either consider to be MOJ's: JB and Rettendon murders or the cases are unsolved: MM, murder of Jill Dando.

I couldn't be bothered to post on the Vincent Tabak thread as I believe him to be guilty as charged.

So can I ask what motivates those who firmly believe JB guilty as charged to continue posting.


A combination of the crime occurring close to where I live, the adoption issue and seeing my own childhood being played out, knowing several who were close to June and Nevill, or who knew Julie's family, and others involved in solving the crime.
Title: Re: Those who agree with the trial verdict but continue to debate on forums
Post by: Holly Goodhead on May 21, 2020, 10:05:57 AM

My thoughts exactly I was just thinking the same when I saw ISWMBE post-JB will be in prison till he dies.

So why spend endless days/hours on here - what is their point when as far as they are concerned he got what he deserved.

There must be more to it IMO

I suspect some have doubts in a dark recess somewhere.  Others might be playing Devil's advocate or even carrying out research for a book. 
Title: Re: Those who agree with the trial verdict but continue to debate on forums
Post by: APRIL on May 21, 2020, 10:10:43 AM
I suspect some have doubts in a dark recess somewhere.  Others might be playing Devil's advocate or even carrying out research for a book.


As in "Forsoothe! He/she doth protest too much"?
Title: Re: Those who agree with the trial verdict but continue to debate on forums
Post by: Caroline on May 21, 2020, 02:12:12 PM

My thoughts exactly I was just thinking the same when I saw ISWMBE post-JB will be in prison till he dies.

So why spend endless days/hours on here - what is their point when as far as they are concerned he got what he deserved.

There must be more to it IMO

While there are still things to debate - why not? Why does there have to be 'more to it'? Sorry, hang on, I've got a Zoo session about to start with Essex Police and the relatives ------ Opps  @)(++(* @)(++(*
Title: Re: Those who agree with the trial verdict but continue to debate on forums
Post by: kizzy on May 21, 2020, 03:12:23 PM
While there are still things to debate - why not? Why does there have to be 'more to it'? Sorry, hang on, I've got a Zoo session about to start with Essex Police and the relatives ------ Opps  @)(++(* @)(++(*

Well oviously you know what you mean - doesnt make sence to me. *%^^&

Or are you calling Essex police animals  @)(++(*
Title: Re: Those who agree with the trial verdict but continue to debate on forums
Post by: Caroline on May 21, 2020, 03:49:54 PM
Well oviously you know what you mean - doesnt make sence to me. *%^^&

Or are you calling Essex police animals  @)(++(*

(Bloody keyboard  @)(++(* @)(++(*) - I expect some of them are  8((()*/
Title: Re: Those who agree with the trial verdict but continue to debate on forums
Post by: mrswah on May 21, 2020, 04:59:43 PM
I can understand people debating on forums even if they agree with the jury's verdict.

I have no doubt that Myra Hindley was guilty, but , as a case study, she fascinates me, particularly her relationship with Ian Brady. I was never on a forum talking about her (don't even know if there were any), but I certainly read all manner of articles about her, and have also read quite a lot from her prison files at the National Archives.
Title: Re: Those who agree with the trial verdict but continue to debate on forums
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on May 21, 2020, 05:32:02 PM
All the while there are people on the internet promulgating daft conspiracy theories there will people keen to point out how daft they are, whether it’s Jeremy Bamber is Innocent, Maddie’s Parents Dumped Her Body In A Bin, The Earth Is Only 6000 Years Old, The Jews Invented The Holocaust, The Moon Landings Were Faked, etc.
Title: Re: Those who agree with the trial verdict but continue to debate on forums
Post by: Caroline on May 21, 2020, 06:13:41 PM
All the while there are people on the internet promulgating daft conspiracy theories there will people keen to point out how daft they are, whether it’s Jeremy Bamber is Innocent, Maddie’s Parents Dumped Her Body In A Bin, The Earth Is Only 6000 Years Old, The Jews Invented The Holocaust, The Moon Landings Were Faked, etc.

That's my reason. The question has been asked so many times and it's almost like they are pleading for us to go away. While there is an opposite view, the is always the opportunity for debate and I think the innocent side should embrace it, instead of agreeing with each other and frankly getting nowhere.
Title: Re: Those who agree with the trial verdict but continue to debate on forums
Post by: mrswah on May 21, 2020, 06:50:22 PM
That's my reason. The question has been asked so many times and it's almost like they are pleading for us to go away. While there is an opposite view, the is always the opportunity for debate and I think the innocent side should embrace it, instead of agreeing with each other and frankly getting nowhere.

Do you think supporters don't generally like debating on forums?  Just asking as a matter of interest.
Title: Re: Those who agree with the trial verdict but continue to debate on forums
Post by: Brietta on May 21, 2020, 06:58:41 PM
That's my reason. The question has been asked so many times and it's almost like they are pleading for us to go away. While there is an opposite view, the is always the opportunity for debate and I think the innocent side should embrace it, instead of agreeing with each other and frankly getting nowhere.

First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist

Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist

Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist

Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew

Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me

Martin Niemöller
Title: Re: Those who agree with the trial verdict but continue to debate on forums
Post by: APRIL on May 21, 2020, 07:02:37 PM
Do you think supporters don't generally like debating on forums?  Just asking as a matter of interest.


I'm inclined to think, in the main, supporters prefer the company of each other and perhaps gravitate towards detractor-free spaces, which saves the need to explain themselves.................i was going to say that I don't think they're as solidly together as detractors. But I had second thoughts......... 8)--))
Title: Re: Those who agree with the trial verdict but continue to debate on forums
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on May 21, 2020, 07:07:08 PM
I can understand people debating on forums even if they agree with the jury's verdict.

I have no doubt that Myra Hindley was guilty, but , as a case study, she fascinates me, particularly her relationship with Ian Brady. I was never on a forum talking about her (don't even know if there were any), but I certainly read all manner of articles about her, and have also read quite a lot from her prison files at the National Archives.
If I was to start a thread to defend Myra Hindley as a misunderstood victim of Ian Brady’s who was coerced against her will to take part in the most heinous crimes against children and then proceeded to spend months and years on this forum posting my theories and defence of her, would you silently respect my views and allow me to continue unchallenged?  Or would you find such behaviour quite morally reprehensible and feel obliged to speak up to say so? 
Title: Re: Those who agree with the trial verdict but continue to debate on forums
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on May 21, 2020, 07:10:42 PM

I'm inclined to think, in the main, supporters prefer the company of each other and perhaps gravitate towards detractor-free spaces, which saves the need to explain themselves.................i was going to say that I don't think they're as solidly together as detractors. But I had second thoughts......... 8)--))
It’s quite clear to me that the MAIN reason JB supporters and McCann sceptics post on here is to engage in debate with the opposite side.  The opposition provides the traction against which they can hone and sharpen their arguments, and of course indulge in the their absolute favourite pastime - victim blaming.
Title: Re: Those who agree with the trial verdict but continue to debate on forums
Post by: Caroline on May 21, 2020, 07:17:07 PM
Do you think supporters don't generally like debating on forums?  Just asking as a matter of interest.

In the main no, otherwise why ask that question?
Title: Re: Those who agree with the trial verdict but continue to debate on forums
Post by: Caroline on May 21, 2020, 07:19:52 PM
If I was to start a thread to defend Myra Hindley as a misunderstood victim of Ian Brady’s who was coerced against her will to take part in the most heinous crimes against children and then proceeded to spend months and years on this forum posting my theories and defence of her, would you silently respect my views and allow me to continue unchallenged?  Or would you find such behaviour quite morally reprehensible and feel obliged to speak up to say so?

And also make excuses for behaviours which are clearly reprehensible continuously.
Title: Re: Those who agree with the trial verdict but continue to debate on forums
Post by: Angelo222 on May 21, 2020, 07:32:28 PM
For those who firmly believe JB guilty as charged why bother?

Some appear to get defensive and say words to the effect 'it's up to me how I spend my time'.  Or bizzarely they will say something like 'I'm just correcting what supporters spout'.

It takes all sorts I guess.  All the cases I've posted on here I either consider to be MOJ's: JB and Rettendon murders or the cases are unsolved: MM, murder of Jill Dando.

I couldn't be bothered to post on the Vincent Tabak thread as I believe him to be guilty as charged.

So can I ask what motivates those who firmly believe JB guilty as charged to continue posting.

The reason is very simple.  Forums like the Jeremy Bamber forum promote lies and invent falsehoods constantly in order to influence public opinion in his favour.  I for one will counter this propaganda wherever I can because apologists for these killers must not go unchallenged.
Title: Re: Those who agree with the trial verdict but continue to debate on forums
Post by: Caroline on May 21, 2020, 07:43:48 PM
The reason is very simple.  Forums like the Jeremy Bamber forum promote lies and invent falsehoods constantly in order to influence public opinion in his favour.  I for one will counter this propaganda wherever I can because apologists for these killers must not go unchallenged.

Well said!
Title: Re: Those who agree with the trial verdict but continue to debate on forums
Post by: mrswah on May 21, 2020, 07:55:25 PM
In the main no, otherwise why ask that question?


I asked the question because I was, for a while, on a couple of Facebook forums discussing the WHF case. One of them was full of supporters, and I didn't feel welcome on there.  It's not as if I'm even an "opposer" !
Title: Re: Those who agree with the trial verdict but continue to debate on forums
Post by: mrswah on May 21, 2020, 08:17:57 PM
If I was to start a thread to defend Myra Hindley as a misunderstood victim of Ian Brady’s who was coerced against her will to take part in the most heinous crimes against children and then proceeded to spend months and years on this forum posting my theories and defence of her, would you silently respect my views and allow me to continue unchallenged?  Or would you find such behaviour quite morally reprehensible and feel obliged to speak up to say so?

I would allow you free speech, and I think I 'd even have some respect for someone who dared  defend Myra Hindley in any way, so long as I thought their motives for doing so were genuine.

And of course, I would challenge you!

Title: Re: Those who agree with the trial verdict but continue to debate on forums
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on May 21, 2020, 08:19:43 PM
I would allow you free speech, and I think I 'd even have some respect for someone who dared  defend Myra Hindley in any way, so long as I thought their motives for doing so were genuine.

And of course, I would challenge you!
I really don’t know how you could respect anyone prepared to defend the indefensible, that does not compute to me. 
Title: Re: Those who agree with the trial verdict but continue to debate on forums
Post by: mrswah on May 21, 2020, 08:29:12 PM
I really don’t know how you could respect anyone prepared to defend the indefensible, that does not compute to me.


I didn't say I'd respect what they said, just that I'd respect them for daring to say it.

I'm interested in people who "go against the crowd"-------just a quirk of mine!
Title: Re: Those who agree with the trial verdict but continue to debate on forums
Post by: Holly Goodhead on May 21, 2020, 08:36:26 PM
I would allow you free speech, and I think I 'd even have some respect for someone who dared  defend Myra Hindley in any way, so long as I thought their motives for doing so were genuine.

And of course, I would challenge you!

I don't think anyone doubted Hindley's involvement.  The likes of Lord Longford campaigned on the basis she was remorseful and reformed and deserved the opportunity for parole.

Has anyone read CAL's book re the Hindley? 
Title: Re: Those who agree with the trial verdict but continue to debate on forums
Post by: mrswah on May 21, 2020, 08:51:54 PM
I don't think anyone doubted Hindley's involvement.  The likes of Lord Longford campaigned on the basis she was remorseful and reformed and deserved the opportunity for parole.

Has anyone read CAL's book re the Hindley?


I have, and it is very good. "One of Your Own".

She also wrote a book about David Smith (Hindley's brother in law, who went to the police and spilled the beans). That is very good too. I think it's called "Evil Relations".

IMO, nobody doubts Hindley's involvement because the evidence against her was so sound.

Title: Re: Those who agree with the trial verdict but continue to debate on forums
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 21, 2020, 08:54:53 PM
I don't think anyone doubted Hindley's involvement.  The likes of Lord Longford campaigned on the basis she was remorseful and reformed and deserved the opportunity for parole.

Has anyone read CAL's book re the Hindley?
Hi, could you help me by defining who CAL is please?
Title: Re: Those who agree with the trial verdict but continue to debate on forums
Post by: mrswah on May 21, 2020, 08:56:56 PM
Hi, could you help me by defining who CAL is please?


Carol Ann Lee. She also wrote a book about the White House Farm murders. I recommend it to you , seeing that you're new to the case.
Title: Re: Those who agree with the trial verdict but continue to debate on forums
Post by: Holly Goodhead on May 21, 2020, 09:00:28 PM

I have, and it is very good. "One of Your Own".

She also wrote a book about David Smith (Hindley's brother in law, who went to the police and spilled the beans). That is very good too. I think it's called "Evil Relations".

IMO, nobody doubts Hindley's involvement because the evidence against her was so sound.

Thanks.  I've read a fair bit online about Hindley as I was curious as to what sort of background could give rise to such depravity.  There's no doubt she was involved.  Her voice was heard on the Lesley Ann Downey tape.
Title: Re: Those who agree with the trial verdict but continue to debate on forums
Post by: mrswah on May 21, 2020, 09:04:50 PM
Thanks.  I've read a fair bit online about Hindley as I was curious as to what sort of background could give rise to such depravity.  There's no doubt she was involved.  Her voice was heard on the Lesley Ann Downey tape.


Indeed. That's what I meant by sound evidence.

Better than all that "circumstantial" stuff !
Title: Re: Those who agree with the trial verdict but continue to debate on forums
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on May 21, 2020, 10:06:31 PM

Indeed. That's what I meant by sound evidence.

Better than all that "circumstantial" stuff !
If you refer to my post on the subject I suggested that she could be defended on the basis that she herself was a victim of Brady’s who forced her to take part in the depravity.  I’m sure someone sick enough could build such a case and defend it, after all there is an enormous mountain if evidence that the Nazis murdered 6 million Jews but still there are people who dispute this.
Title: Re: Those who agree with the trial verdict but continue to debate on forums
Post by: Caroline on May 21, 2020, 10:10:34 PM

I have, and it is very good. "One of Your Own".

She also wrote a book about David Smith (Hindley's brother in law, who went to the police and spilled the beans). That is very good too. I think it's called "Evil Relations".

IMO, nobody doubts Hindley's involvement because the evidence against her was so sound.

THat wasn't the premise of the question.
Title: Re: Those who agree with the trial verdict but continue to debate on forums
Post by: mrswah on May 21, 2020, 11:51:00 PM
THat wasn't the premise of the question.

Sorry, don't understand. What question?

I was replying to Holly, who asked me if I'd read CAL's book on Hindley.
Title: Re: Those who agree with the trial verdict but continue to debate on forums
Post by: Caroline on May 22, 2020, 12:34:23 AM
Sorry, don't understand. What question?

I was replying to Holly, who asked me if I'd read CAL's book on Hindley.

This was the original question

If I was to start a thread to defend Myra Hindley as a misunderstood victim of Ian Brady’s who was coerced against her will to take part in the most heinous crimes against children and then proceeded to spend months and years on this forum posting my theories and defence of her, would you silently respect my views and allow me to continue unchallenged?  Or would you find such behaviour quite morally reprehensible and feel obliged to speak up to say so?

Then everyone started going on about how no one thinks MH is innocent, but that wasn't the premise of the question. The subject matter could be anyone but if it was someone who you felt strongly was a murdering toe rag "would you silently respect my views and allow me to continue unchallenged?  Or would you find such behaviour quite morally reprehensible and feel obliged to speak up to say so?"
Title: Re: Those who agree with the trial verdict but continue to debate on forums
Post by: mrswah on May 22, 2020, 01:19:20 AM
This was the original question

Then everyone started going on about how no one thinks MH is innocent, but that wasn't the premise of the question. The subject matter could be anyone but if it was someone who you felt strongly was a murdering toe rag "would you silently respect my views and allow me to continue unchallenged?  Or would you find such behaviour quite morally reprehensible and feel obliged to speak up to say so?"

If you look back, you'll see that I did answer it !