Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: debunker on April 08, 2013, 10:27:24 AM
Title: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 08, 2013, 10:27:24 AM
Given that the only set of alerts indicating the possibility of cadaver odor is that Eddie alerts (indicating blood or cadaver) and Keela does not alert (meaning no blood), how many items or places does this refer to- where we have clear evidence that both dogs were tasked and Eddie alerted and Keela did not.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Redblossom on April 21, 2013, 01:56:54 PM
Clear evidence, from the dog video and from the files, in two cases
- around the parents' bedroom wardrobe area - clothing
No evidence from either the dog video or the police files (at least as far as I have seen or read) that Keela the blood dog was sent into the following areas where Eddie the cadaver dog alerted
- verandah outside the parents' bedroom - flowerbed area outside the flat - the soft toy
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 21, 2013, 09:37:31 PM
Clear evidence, from the dog video and from the files, in two cases
- around the parents' bedroom wardrobe area - clothing
No evidence from either the dog video or the police files (at least as far as I have seen or read) that Keela the blood dog was sent into the following areas where Eddie the cadaver dog alerted
- verandah outside the parents' bedroom - flowerbed area outside the flat - the soft toy
And a single alert is likely to be in error 10-20% of the time.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: icabodcrane on April 21, 2013, 10:17:45 PM
Clear evidence, from the dog video and from the files, in two cases
- around the parents' bedroom wardrobe area - clothing
No evidence from either the dog video or the police files (at least as far as I have seen or read) that Keela the blood dog was sent into the following areas where Eddie the cadaver dog alerted
- verandah outside the parents' bedroom - flowerbed area outside the flat - the soft toy
And a single alert is likely to be in error 10-20% of the time.
So when Eddie alerted at the McCann's wardrobe ( where Keela did not ) we can say it was not blood, but cadaver scent he was alerting to
... and we can say there is an 80%/90% chance that his alert was accurate
Is that correct ?
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: amaraltheofficeboy on April 21, 2013, 10:20:26 PM
you can correctly say, like Grime himself says, that the alert has no evidential value without forensic backup.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 21, 2013, 10:20:37 PM
Clear evidence, from the dog video and from the files, in two cases
- around the parents' bedroom wardrobe area - clothing
No evidence from either the dog video or the police files (at least as far as I have seen or read) that Keela the blood dog was sent into the following areas where Eddie the cadaver dog alerted
- verandah outside the parents' bedroom - flowerbed area outside the flat - the soft toy
And a single alert is likely to be in error 10-20% of the time.
So when Eddie alerted at the McCann's wardrobe ( where Keela did not ) we can say it was not blood, but cadaver scent he was alerting to
... and we can say there is an 80%/90% chance that his alert was accurate
Is that correct ?
That would be a fair assessment according to the research.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: registrar on April 21, 2013, 10:35:48 PM
Grime had his doggies filmed by
Duarte Levy
who flogged the fillum to the Sun for a cool 100k
hey, even Joana M. hates Levy's guts - so that connection (Grime-Levy) deserves attention
IMHO
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Carana on April 21, 2013, 11:22:46 PM
Clear evidence, from the dog video and from the files, in two cases
- around the parents' bedroom wardrobe area - clothing
No evidence from either the dog video or the police files (at least as far as I have seen or read) that Keela the blood dog was sent into the following areas where Eddie the cadaver dog alerted
- verandah outside the parents' bedroom - flowerbed area outside the flat - the soft toy
And a single alert is likely to be in error 10-20% of the time.
So when Eddie alerted at the McCann's wardrobe ( where Keela did not ) we can say it was not blood, but cadaver scent he was alerting to
... and we can say there is an 80%/90% chance that his alert was accurate
Is that correct ?
But what to? He alerts to the scent of decomposing human substances... and a dead person is only one of the possibiities.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Redblossom on April 21, 2013, 11:29:34 PM
Clear evidence, from the dog video and from the files, in two cases
- around the parents' bedroom wardrobe area - clothing
No evidence from either the dog video or the police files (at least as far as I have seen or read) that Keela the blood dog was sent into the following areas where Eddie the cadaver dog alerted
- verandah outside the parents' bedroom - flowerbed area outside the flat - the soft toy
And a single alert is likely to be in error 10-20% of the time.
So when Eddie alerted at the McCann's wardrobe ( where Keela did not ) we can say it was not blood, but cadaver scent he was alerting to
... and we can say there is an 80%/90% chance that his alert was accurate
Is that correct ?
But what to? He alerts to the scent of decomposing human substances... and a dead person is only one of the possibiities.
Since we only have Mr Grime's cv and reports to go on in this case and concerning this dog, where in any of that does he say that Eddie alerts to decomposing substances from people who are alive, apart from blood?
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: AnneGuedes on April 21, 2013, 11:32:29 PM
Clear evidence, from the dog video and from the files, in two cases
- around the parents' bedroom wardrobe area - clothing
No evidence from either the dog video or the police files (at least as far as I have seen or read) that Keela the blood dog was sent into the following areas where Eddie the cadaver dog alerted
- verandah outside the parents' bedroom - flowerbed area outside the flat - the soft toy
And a single alert is likely to be in error 10-20% of the time.
So when Eddie alerted at the McCann's wardrobe ( where Keela did not ) we can say it was not blood, but cadaver scent he was alerting to
... and we can say there is an 80%/90% chance that his alert was accurate
Is that correct ?
But what to? He alerts to the scent of decomposing human substances... and a dead person is only one of the possibiities.
Carana, there was no residue in the wardrobe corner : no blood, no semen, no human substance. Read the scientific article I referred above. Experiences show how this is possible.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 22, 2013, 07:43:43 AM
Clear evidence, from the dog video and from the files, in two cases
- around the parents' bedroom wardrobe area - clothing
No evidence from either the dog video or the police files (at least as far as I have seen or read) that Keela the blood dog was sent into the following areas where Eddie the cadaver dog alerted
- verandah outside the parents' bedroom - flowerbed area outside the flat - the soft toy
And a single alert is likely to be in error 10-20% of the time.
So when Eddie alerted at the McCann's wardrobe ( where Keela did not ) we can say it was not blood, but cadaver scent he was alerting to
... and we can say there is an 80%/90% chance that his alert was accurate
Is that correct ?
But what to? He alerts to the scent of decomposing human substances... and a dead person is only one of the possibiities.
And like all scent dogs, he sometimes just alerts incorrectly or his alert is misinterpreted.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 22, 2013, 07:51:30 AM
Clear evidence, from the dog video and from the files, in two cases
- around the parents' bedroom wardrobe area - clothing
No evidence from either the dog video or the police files (at least as far as I have seen or read) that Keela the blood dog was sent into the following areas where Eddie the cadaver dog alerted
- verandah outside the parents' bedroom - flowerbed area outside the flat - the soft toy
And a single alert is likely to be in error 10-20% of the time.
So when Eddie alerted at the McCann's wardrobe ( where Keela did not ) we can say it was not blood, but cadaver scent he was alerting to
... and we can say there is an 80%/90% chance that his alert was accurate
Is that correct ?
But what to? He alerts to the scent of decomposing human substances... and a dead person is only one of the possibiities.
Since we only have Mr Grime's cv and reports to go on in this case and concerning this dog, where in any of that does he say that Eddie alerts to decomposing substances from people who are alive, apart from blood?
It is logically correct. Do a thought experiment- an amputated piece of a body will decompose in similar ways whether the person is alive or dead.
Menstrual flow includes blood.
Seminal fluid is created from blood.
Suppurating wounds create cadaverine and putrescine.
And so on. All in the literature.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 22, 2013, 07:55:08 AM
Carana, there was no residue in the wardrobe corner : no blood, no semen, no human substance. Read the scientific article I referred above. Experiences show how this is possible.
And there are simple errors of alert and interpretation as with all scent dogs.
Even if there were traces of semen or blood etc below the forensic threshold, Eddie would react to it correctly 80-90% of the time- the same approximate error rate as Keela.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Carana on April 22, 2013, 09:15:38 AM
Since we only have Mr Grime's cv and reports to go on in this case and concerning this dog, where in any of that does he say that Eddie alerts to decomposing substances from people who are alive, apart from blood?
Well, I suppose the sex clean-up tissues he alerted to in Jersey could be a case of necrophilia...
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: AnneGuedes on April 22, 2013, 10:48:53 AM
Ferryman, I don't understand your mocking operations that were leaded by Mark Harrison. Portugueses were just executing orders ! When you read their reports, you can't but acknowledge the respect they have for the author of the golden hour concept..
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: ferryman on April 22, 2013, 10:55:56 AM
Ferryman, I don't understand your mocking operations that were leaded by Mark Harrison. Portugueses were just executing orders ! When you read their reports, you can't but acknowledge the respect they have for the author of the golden hour concept..
I'm not quite clear what you mean?
Can you point to something I've said and I will try to explain.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: AnneGuedes on April 22, 2013, 10:57:38 AM
Sure, Carana, these experiment and analyses don't answer all questions. It's difficult to establish what post-mortem minimum delay is required. Many factors are at work, likely. The manner of death might have some effect. Intuitively I'd say that decomposition would take more time in the case of a person who had an immediate accidental death than in the case of a very sick person. It could depend also on the skill of a particular cadaver dog.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: AnneGuedes on April 22, 2013, 10:59:45 AM
Ferryman, I don't understand your mocking operations that were leaded by Mark Harrison. Portugueses were just executing orders ! When you read their reports, you can't but acknowledge the respect they have for the author of the golden hour concept..
I'm not quite clear what you mean?
Can you point to something I've said and I will try to explain.
...making still more of a mockery of both inspections at villa and (especially!) gym ...
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: ferryman on April 22, 2013, 11:03:15 AM
Ah!
I don't understand why Grime carried out either inspection.
Madeleine never lived at the villa and never went near the gym.
Mark Harrison made plain that they were looking for Madeleine's blood.
It was never going to be found in the villa because Madeleine never lived there.
It was never going to be found in the hire car because that was rented weeks after Madeleine vanished.
And it was certainly never going to be found in the gym.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: AnneGuedes on April 22, 2013, 11:10:16 AM
Mark Harrison thought time had come to search for a dead Madeleine, not especially for blood. I don't know either why they inspected the villa (the gymnasium was only a large clean space to deploy clothes). But I'm not a sleuth !
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: ferryman on April 22, 2013, 11:16:22 AM
Mark Harrison thought time had come to search for a dead Madeleine, not especially for blood. I don't know either why they inspected the villa (the gymnasium was only a large clean space to deploy clothes). But I'm not a sleuth !
No.
Mark Harrison was handed a brief to consider that Madeleine had been 'murdered' and worked to it, as this comment from his report makes plain:
This report considers solely the possibility that Madeleine McCann has been murdered and her body is concealed within the areas previously searched by Police in Zone 1 around Praia Da Luz. Other scenarios or possibilities may on request be considered and be subject of a further report.
If Harrison was ever invited to consider any other scenario, and wrote another report, we don't see it on line.
It is a myth peddled in Amaral's book that Harrison changed the direction of the enquiry into one for a little girl assumed dead.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: AnneGuedes on April 22, 2013, 11:35:21 AM
I don't think I said MH changed the course of the investigation. Nothing suggests that the Portugueses convinced him to advise searching for a body. Personally I find it reasonable, murder or not, after so many weeks. Anyhow MH took the initiative to send MG and the dogs to the villa. Do you have any doubt about this ?
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: ferryman on April 22, 2013, 12:46:22 PM
Nothing suggests that the Portugueses convinced him to advise searching for a body.
There's plenty that does. Harrison's terms of reference for a start ...
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: AnneGuedes on April 22, 2013, 01:22:11 PM
Nothing suggests that the Portugueses convinced him to advise searching for a body.
There's plenty that does. Harrison's terms of reference for a start ...
Ferryman, could you be a bit more specific, please ?
Anne, these are Mark Harrison's terms of reference, handed to him by (then) Amaral's boss (the now late) Encarnacao (RIP):
Terms of reference to provide assistance to the Portuguese Judicial Police.
1. Assist the Judicial Police and GNR in assessing new or previous areas searched and give opinion on the best methods and assets to provide assurance as to the absence or presence of M McCann's concealed remains. 2. Act as a "critical friend" to the officer in charge of search planning and management and offer immediate and enduring peer review until case resolution or search suspension. 3. Assist in the development of framework models such as scenario based searching to aid homicide disposal searching. 4. Consider further opportunities or areas for search in order to locate M McCann as applicable to the latest intelligence and inform tion provided. 5. Where appropriate, provide independent and impartial advice on the enabling and disabling factors of specialist resources available either within Portugal or elsewhere in body detection. 6. To assist in decision support where requested by testing and challenging claims made by persons offering unorthodox search methods or devices to aid locating M McCann. 7. Where appropriate and requested, assist in advising on procedures to procure any non Portuguese specialist assets that are deemed to be relevant and useful.
If you read on, you will find that Amaral's thesis that Gerry hid Madeleine's body on the beach stemmed from Harrison's work in exploring and ruling out the possibility that Madeleine's abductor (whom he never directly associated with Gerry) had buried Madeleine on the beach.
When you read Harrison's summary of searches, he excludes reference to British participation in searches he didn't recommend, but makes reference to British participation in those searches he did recommend.
In an edit, I will add Harrison's summary of searches.
Harrison's summary:
The timeline of these searches was as follows:
On 31-07-07 the PJ conducted canine searches with a search warrant at apartments in Praia da Luz that had been previously occupied by the McCanns and their friends.
On 01-08-07 the PJ and GNR assisted by a canine, conducted searches on the eastern beach and wasteland in Praia da Luz.
On 02-08-07 the PJ conducted a search warrant at a villa in Praia da Luz currently occupied by the McCann family.
Later the same day PJ officers conducted a screening procedure involving items removed from the McCann’s villa.
On 03-08-07 PJ and GNR officers were given instruction based on translated extracts from NPIA doctrine on search management and procedures. This focused on search procedures relating to buildings and vehicles.
On 04-08-07 and 05-08-07 a search warrant was executed at the villa and gardens belonging to the PJ suspect Robert Murat. This search involved both PJ and GNR personnel supported by civil defence, geophysical equipment operators and a canine handler.
On 06-08-07 ten vehicles were searched associated to the enquiry.
On 07-08-07 the western beach and remaining wasteland areas were searched using canine and GNR personnel.
On 08-08-07 the drains around the apartment block where Madeleine McCann disappeared from were subject to a visual inspection by PJ officers.
Harrison recommended: search of the holiday apartments, search of areas in and around PdL, search of the Murats' place.
In all those searches, Harrison acknowledges UK participation.
Harrison said nothing about the villa and nothing about the gym, both summarised (without description) as "PJ operations".
And while Harrison did recommend an inspection of vehicles, only two (of three) cars he recommended be inspected made the final line-up of 10.
Harrison gives no clue who took part in that inspection.
And note those instructions to PJ personnel, issued only after both inspections at villa and gym.
If Harrison had seen it as his duty or necessary to issue such instructions, he'd have done so before any inspections.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Gildas on April 22, 2013, 02:24:28 PM
Clear evidence, from the dog video and from the files, in two cases
- around the parents' bedroom wardrobe area - clothing
No evidence from either the dog video or the police files (at least as far as I have seen or read) that Keela the blood dog was sent into the following areas where Eddie the cadaver dog alerted
- verandah outside the parents' bedroom - flowerbed area outside the flat - the soft toy
And a single alert is likely to be in error 10-20% of the time.
Debunker, where did you get this figure of 10 - 20% from ?
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 22, 2013, 04:00:21 PM
Debunker, where did you get this figure of 10 - 20% from ?
Peer reviewed research into scent dog accuracy for false positive and false negative alerts in real life operation. Most suggest a maximum of 90% accuracy but some are as low as 30%.
I am happy with any researched figure less than 100%- nothing, especially dog and handler reactions is 100% accurate. All measurements have error rates.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: ferryman on April 22, 2013, 05:11:04 PM
Here's something else that's always intrigued me, from the inspection in the gym, recorded by the PJ:
1. Between 23h20 and 23h30 the two dogs were allowed to reconoitre the entire area to guarantee that there were no existing odours - and none were detected by them.
2. Between 23h30 and 23h40 items from the box labelled 'common room' were inspected by the blood dog without result. - At 23h41 the cadaver dog began its inspection and 'marked' some clothing on the edge of the area. The inspection ended at 23h52 with the clothing having been collected for later direct examination and photographic report.
An apparent acknowledgment of the possibility of pre-existing scents and a precaution against that.
Except that, there was no gap between completion of reconnoitre and commencement of search, suggesting that the clothes were already laid out before inspection.
So what was the point of the reconnoitre? And why wasn't any, apparent, scent detected during reconnoitre?
Even more odd is that we know, in the simultaneous inspection of 10 vehicles, there was disregard for the principle or possibility of pre-existing scent.
One car did have an innocent scent (the McCanns', as it happened); any of them might have.
Or did the PJ read this literature Mark Harrison gave them on how to conduct a search and take bits from it that sounded good for their report?
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: AnneGuedes on April 22, 2013, 05:40:12 PM
Nothing suggests that the Portugueses convinced him to advise searching for a body.
There's plenty that does. Harrison's terms of reference for a start ...
Ferryman, could you be a bit more specific, please ?
Anne, these are Mark Harrison's terms of reference, handed to him by (then) Amaral's boss (the now late) Encarnacao (RIP):
Terms of reference to provide assistance to the Portuguese Judicial Police.
1. Assist the Judicial Police and GNR in assessing new or previous areas searched and give opinion on the best methods and assets to provide assurance as to the absence or presence of M McCann's concealed remains. 2. Act as a "critical friend" to the officer in charge of search planning and management and offer immediate and enduring peer review until case resolution or search suspension. 3. Assist in the development of framework models such as scenario based searching to aid homicide disposal searching. 4. Consider further opportunities or areas for search in order to locate M McCann as applicable to the latest intelligence and inform tion provided. 5. Where appropriate, provide independent and impartial advice on the enabling and disabling factors of specialist resources available either within Portugal or elsewhere in body detection. 6. To assist in decision support where requested by testing and challenging claims made by persons offering unorthodox search methods or devices to aid locating M McCann. 7. Where appropriate and requested, assist in advising on procedures to procure any non Portuguese specialist assets that are deemed to be relevant and useful.
If you read on, you will find that Amaral's thesis that Gerry hid Madeleine's body on the beach stemmed from Harrison's work in exploring and ruling out the possibility that Madeleine's abductor (whom he never directly associated with Gerry) had buried Madeleine on the beach.
When you read Harrison's summary of searches, he excludes reference to British participation in searches he didn't recommend, but makes reference to British participation in those searches he did recommend.
In an edit, I will add Harrison's summary of searches.
Harrison's summary:
The timeline of these searches was as follows:
On 31-07-07 the PJ conducted canine searches with a search warrant at apartments in Praia da Luz that had been previously occupied by the McCanns and their friends.
On 01-08-07 the PJ and GNR assisted by a canine, conducted searches on the eastern beach and wasteland in Praia da Luz.
On 02-08-07 the PJ conducted a search warrant at a villa in Praia da Luz currently occupied by the McCann family.
Later the same day PJ officers conducted a screening procedure involving items removed from the McCann’s villa.
On 03-08-07 PJ and GNR officers were given instruction based on translated extracts from NPIA doctrine on search management and procedures. This focused on search procedures relating to buildings and vehicles.
On 04-08-07 and 05-08-07 a search warrant was executed at the villa and gardens belonging to the PJ suspect Robert Murat. This search involved both PJ and GNR personnel supported by civil defence, geophysical equipment operators and a canine handler.
On 06-08-07 ten vehicles were searched associated to the enquiry.
On 07-08-07 the western beach and remaining wasteland areas were searched using canine and GNR personnel.
On 08-08-07 the drains around the apartment block where Madeleine McCann disappeared from were subject to a visual inspection by PJ officers.
Harrison recommended: search of the holiday apartments, search of areas in and around PdL, search of the Murats' place.
In all those searches, Harrison acknowledges UK participation.
Harrison said nothing about the villa and nothing about the gym, both summarised (without description) as "PJ operations".
And while Harrison did recommend an inspection of vehicles, only two (of three) cars he recommended be inspected made the final line-up of 10.
Harrison gives no clue who took part in that inspection.
And note those instructions to PJ personnel, issued only after both inspections at villa and gym.
If Harrison had seen it as his duty or necessary to issue such instructions, he'd have done so before any inspections.
I'm a bit lost, Ferryman, actually I'd appreciate to know your conceptual framework. I believed the British and the PJ well cooperated in this search which appears justified to me. You seem to suggest that the villa search was invented by the PJ to convince MH to explore the homicide scenario or to show him it was the only possible one. Am I wrong ?
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Carana on April 22, 2013, 05:47:21 PM
Here's something else that's always intrigued me, from the inspection in the gym, recorded by the PJ:
1. Between 23h20 and 23h30 the two dogs were allowed to reconoitre the entire area to guarantee that there were no existing odours - and none were detected by them.
2. Between 23h30 and 23h40 items from the box labelled 'common room' were inspected by the blood dog without result. - At 23h41 the cadaver dog began its inspection and 'marked' some clothing on the edge of the area. The inspection ended at 23h52 with the clothing having been collected for later direct examination and photographic report.
An apparent acknowledgment of the possibility of pre-existing scents and a precaution against that.
Except that, there was no gap between completion of reconnoitre and commencement of search, suggesting that the clothes were already laid out before inspection.
So what was the point of the reconnoitre? And why wasn't any, apparent, scent detected during reconnoitre?
Even more odd is that we know, in the simultaneous inspection of 10 vehicles, there was disregard for the principle or possibility of pre-existing scent.
One car did have an innocent scent (the McCanns', as it happened); any of them might have.
Or did the PJ read this literature Mark Harrison gave them on how to conduct a search and take bits from it that sounded good for their report?
Well, I suppose the timing could have been off by a couple of minutes (although it then continues by stating 23h41, which sounds precise). I agree that it seems odd that the report doesn't mention timing for laying out the clothes, though.
I also find it interesting (a coincidence?) that the items alerted to came from that very first box.
I'm more intrigued by the fact that I still haven't worked out the system for the items supposedly alerted to.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Gildas on April 22, 2013, 06:49:59 PM
Peer reviewed research into scent dog accuracy for false positive and false negative alerts in real life operation. Most suggest a maximum of 90% accuracy but some are as low as 30%.
I am happy with any researched figure less than 100%- nothing, especially dog and handler reactions is 100% accurate. All measurements have error rates.
Thank you for your reply, Debunker.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 22, 2013, 07:30:57 PM
Since we only have Mr Grime's cv and reports to go on in this case and concerning this dog, where in any of that does he say that Eddie alerts to decomposing substances from people who are alive, apart from blood?
Well, I suppose the sex clean-up tissues he alerted to in Jersey could be a case of necrophilia...
What a horrible post, and semen chemicals dont linger in the air three months later, the mass of bodily decomposition compounds do though, they are about 400 as opposed to two or three off semen
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 22, 2013, 10:05:36 PM
Since we only have Mr Grime's cv and reports to go on in this case and concerning this dog, where in any of that does he say that Eddie alerts to decomposing substances from people who are alive, apart from blood?
Well, I suppose the sex clean-up tissues he alerted to in Jersey could be a case of necrophilia...
What a horrible post, and semen chemicals dont linger in the air three months later, the mass of bodily decomposition compounds do though, they are about 400 as opposed to two or three off semen
Cite for that claim please.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: DCI on April 22, 2013, 10:07:03 PM
What a horrible post, and semen chemicals dont linger in the air three months later, the mass of bodily decomposition compounds do though, they are about 400 as opposed to two or three off semen
More than 400 ! It is much more subtle than cadaverine and putrescine synthetic compounds.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: AnneGuedes on April 22, 2013, 10:11:18 PM
btw cadaverine couldn't fool Eddie.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 22, 2013, 10:16:49 PM
Cadaverine and Putrescene are organic compounds produced by decaying human bodies. Eddie reacts to both and also to dried blood from a still living person. He does not need to smell all resultant compounds to alert. Blood itself gives off only a few of the many chemicals associated with human decay.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Carana on April 22, 2013, 10:28:38 PM
Since we only have Mr Grime's cv and reports to go on in this case and concerning this dog, where in any of that does he say that Eddie alerts to decomposing substances from people who are alive, apart from blood?
Well, I suppose the sex clean-up tissues he alerted to in Jersey could be a case of necrophilia...
What a horrible post, and semen chemicals dont linger in the air three months later, the mass of bodily decomposition compounds do though, they are about 400 as opposed to two or three off semen
I was just pointing out that such things were within Eddie's training parameters as substances from a living person.
That apartment had been rented out 4 times after Madeleine disappeared.
The leaving date of the last (known) occupants was 26 July - one week before the inspection.
He may even have reacted to the lingering scent of a bandaid that fell off a recent occupant's foot - who knows?
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: icabodcrane on April 22, 2013, 10:43:12 PM
Since we only have Mr Grime's cv and reports to go on in this case and concerning this dog, where in any of that does he say that Eddie alerts to decomposing substances from people who are alive, apart from blood?
Well, I suppose the sex clean-up tissues he alerted to in Jersey could be a case of necrophilia...
What a horrible post, and semen chemicals dont linger in the air three months later, the mass of bodily decomposition compounds do though, they are about 400 as opposed to two or three off semen
I was just pointing out that such things were within Eddie's training parameters as substances from a living person.
That apartment had been rented out 4 times after Madeleine disappeared.
The leaving date of the last (known) occupants was 26 July - one week before the inspection.
He may even have reacted to the lingering scent of a bandaid that fell off a recent occupant's foot - who knows?
If it was at all likely that Eddie was as indiscriminate in his alerts as you suggest, it's begs the question ... why wasn't he alerting all over PDL ? ... rather than only in the apartment where a missing child was last seen ?
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: ferryman on April 22, 2013, 10:48:15 PM
Mods, I'm uncomfortably aware that discussion about Lee Rainbow has (again) taken this thread off-topic.
Would it be possible to hive off those posts about Lee Rainbow into a separate thread?
And again apologies. I don't think I began the discussion but I was principally responsible for nurturing it.
Should have begun a new thread to continue an (interesting) meta-debate.
I will be more disciplined in future ...
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: ferryman on April 22, 2013, 10:53:04 PM
Certainly dogs take cues from their handler that they are "working".
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: icabodcrane on April 22, 2013, 11:12:29 PM
I'll take a moment to recap here
When the cadaver dog alerts in the same locations as the blood dog, it must be because they are both alerting to the blood of a living human
When the cadavour dog alerts in a location where the blood dog did not, it must be because he is alerting to any number of things, other than a dead body
When it is only in the apartment where a missing child was last seen that this indiscriminate cadavour dog alerts, it must be because he has been 'cued' by his owner
It all sounds desperately defensive to me
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: AnneGuedes on April 22, 2013, 11:17:18 PM
Cadaverine and Putrescene are organic compounds produced by decaying human bodies. Eddie reacts to both and also to dried blood from a still living person. He does not need to smell all resultant compounds to alert. Blood itself gives off only a few of the many chemicals associated with human decay.
Yes but late Eddie didn't react to synthetic cadaverine according to MG, which turns dog's nose yet insubstitutable.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: AnneGuedes on April 22, 2013, 11:32:16 PM
Icabodcrane, shall I congratulate you ? Yes and no.. Poor Eddie (I loved that dog, he had a sweet face, I felt sorry when he died) isn't going to convince any body who isn't convinced already.. That's why I suggested a reductio ad absurdum in another thread. Strangely enough nobody reacted... I wonder why.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 22, 2013, 11:53:21 PM
When the cadaver dog alerts in the same locations as the blood dog, it must be because they are both alerting to the blood of a living human
When the cadavour dog alerts in a location where the blood dog did not, it must be because he is alerting to any number of things, other than a dead body
When it is only in the apartment where a missing child was last seen that this indiscriminate cadavour dog alerts, it must be because he has been 'cued' by his owner
It all sounds desperately defensive to me
NO NO NO
If both dogs alert, it could be dried blood from a living or dead person. It could be cadaver odor and blood, but unless further forensics present, it cannot be assumed to be cadaverous because there is another possible answer.
When any dog alerts, there is a finite chance that the alert is an error. Most research suggests that 80-90% accuracy is the maximum achievable.
All dogs are able to alert to unconscious cuing. I have posted links to most of these research papers over the past two weeks.
My two favorites are the one where handlers were told that a room had scents that their dog would alert to, and even though the room was totally clean, many alerts occurred. The second one was where the handlers were told which rags had the odor and which did not. There were frequent alerts to the identified rags; none of them had any odor.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: registrar on April 23, 2013, 12:02:15 AM
Debunker wrote:
'All dogs are able to alert to unconscious cuing. I have posted links to most of these research papers over the past two weeks.'
correct
and to conscious cuing.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: icabodcrane on April 23, 2013, 12:07:19 AM
When the cadaver dog alerts in the same locations as the blood dog, it must be because they are both alerting to the blood of a living human
When the cadavour dog alerts in a location where the blood dog did not, it must be because he is alerting to any number of things, other than a dead body
When it is only in the apartment where a missing child was last seen that this indiscriminate cadavour dog alerts, it must be because he has been 'cued' by his owner
It all sounds desperately defensive to me
NO NO NO
If both dogs alert, it could be dried blood from a living or dead person. It could be cadaver odor and blood, but unless further forensics present, it cannot be assumed to be cadaverous because there is another possible answer.
When any dog alerts, there is a finite chance that the alert is an error. Most research suggests that 80-90% accuracy is the maximum achievable.
All dogs are able to alert to unconscious cuing. I have posted links to most of these research papers over the past two weeks.
My two favorites are the one where handlers were told that a room had scents that their dog would alert to, and even though the room was totally clean, many alerts occurred. The second one was where the handlers were told which rags had the odor and which did not. There were frequent alerts to the identified rags; none of them had any odor.
Given all the research you have clearly done on the 'dog issue' ( which is commendable ) ... can I ask a straight forward question ?
What do you think the dogs were alerting to in apartment 5A ?
I'm not asking you to commit yourelf to a single possibility ... just asking what you think is the most likely possibility ( based on all your research )
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: AnneGuedes on April 23, 2013, 12:21:15 AM
@ Debunker Do you think if could affect stats if a dog alerted to cadaver (without any residue) in 3 points of the same area ?
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Rachel Granada on April 23, 2013, 12:24:55 AM
When the cadaver dog alerts in the same locations as the blood dog, it must be because they are both alerting to the blood of a living human
When the cadavour dog alerts in a location where the blood dog did not, it must be because he is alerting to any number of things, other than a dead body
When it is only in the apartment where a missing child was last seen that this indiscriminate cadavour dog alerts, it must be because he has been 'cued' by his owner
It all sounds desperately defensive to me
NO NO NO
If both dogs alert, it could be dried blood from a living or dead person. It could be cadaver odor and blood, but unless further forensics present, it cannot be assumed to be cadaverous because there is another possible answer.
When any dog alerts, there is a finite chance that the alert is an error. Most research suggests that 80-90% accuracy is the maximum achievable.
All dogs are able to alert to unconscious cuing. I have posted links to most of these research papers over the past two weeks.
My two favorites are the one where handlers were told that a room had scents that their dog would alert to, and even though the room was totally clean, many alerts occurred. The second one was where the handlers were told which rags had the odor and which did not. There were frequent alerts to the identified rags; none of them had any odor.
Given all the research you have clearly done on the 'dog issue' ( which is commendable ) ... can I ask a straight forward question ?
What do you think the dogs were alerting to in apartment 5A ?
I'm not asking you to commit yourelf to a single possibility ... just asking what you think is the most likely possibility ( based on all your research )
Icabod - a good question. But with the greatest of respect to you, there was nothing to back up any alerts. Nada. Zip. Nothing.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: AnneGuedes on April 23, 2013, 12:32:47 AM
When, in a hot summer night, you open your window and feel so good that you don't feel like going to bed, slowly but surely around 4 am a flavour invades your sitting room, a flavour of bread just being baked, how would you back this if you didn't know there's a baker a hundred meters away ?
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 23, 2013, 12:33:23 AM
Given all the research you have clearly done on the 'dog issue' ( which is commendable ) ... can I ask a straight forward question ?
What do you think the dogs were alerting to in apartment 5A ?
I'm not asking you to commit yourelf to a single possibility ... just asking what you think is the most likely possibility ( based on all your research )
Very few of the tests were actually able to indicate cadaver odour- that requires a positive from Eddie and a negative from Keela.
Dogs are liable to what are called serial errors. Supposing that Eddie showed a reaction that was subliminally rewarded by Mr Grime. This odor if encountered again has been rewarded and the dog is likely to react again.
As Mr Grime says again and again, dog alerts are meaningless unless corroborated by further forensics.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 23, 2013, 12:36:42 AM
@ Debunker Do you think if could affect stats if a dog alerted to cadaver (without any residue) in 3 points of the same area ?
We do not know that he alerted to cadaver. We know he alerted. The alerts could have been errors. Dogs are at best 80-90%correct. When two dogs are involved, this drips to 64-81%.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: icabodcrane on April 23, 2013, 12:38:05 AM
Very few of the tests were actually able to indicate cadaver odor- that requires a positive from Eddie and a negative from Keela.
Dogs are liable to what are called serial errors. Supposing that Eddie showed a reaction that was subliminally rewarded by Mr Grime. This odor if encountered again has been rewarded and the dog is likely to react again.
As Mr Grime says again and again, dog alerts are meaningless unless corroborated by further forensics.
So what do you think the dogs were most likely to have been alerting to in apartment 5A ?
What is you personal opinion, based on the research you have done ?
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 23, 2013, 12:40:36 AM
@ Debunker Do you think if could affect stats if a dog alerted to cadaver (without any residue) in 3 points of the same area ?
We do not know that he alerted to cadaver. We know he alerted. The alerts could have been errors. Dogs are at best 80-90%correct. When two dogs are involved, this drips to 64-81%.
You're right and I correct : if one EVRD alerts in three different points of the same area where a CSI blood dog has not alerted, how are stats affected ?
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: icabodcrane on April 23, 2013, 12:49:22 AM
No-one knows. Dog a'erts are mere alerts. Without further forensics they are meaningless (source-Mr Grime.)
How disappointing, Debunker ! Could you try at least to develop the interesting idea of a McCann scent ? Isn't the idea a cadaver dog would ignore Shalimar a bit upsetting ?
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 23, 2013, 01:06:02 AM
No-one knows. Dog a'erts are mere alerts. Without further forensics they are meaningless (source-Mr Grime.)
How disappointing, Debunker ! Could you try at least to develop the interesting idea of a McCann scent ? Isn't the idea a cadaver dog would ignore Shalimar a bit upsetting ?
Unlike some, I rely on facts rather than speculation.
Any scent can be learned or unlearned by a scent dog.
Dog alerts are meaningless without further forensic support.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: AnneGuedes on April 23, 2013, 01:14:06 AM
@ Debunker I've read the articles you sent (thank you !) about the reliability of dogs. I had read about this and I have no doubt it's an issue. A US handler was even condemned if I remind well for having manipulated her dog. Many handlers, I suppose, aren't professional but wish they were. Challenge might also explain conscious or unconscious tricks. Now this reliability, being a crucial point, is systematically tested, I think twice a year is the rule for handlers of the police force. Not only the handler and the dog are tested separately, but they are tested as a team as well.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: AnneGuedes on April 23, 2013, 01:19:29 AM
No-one knows. Dog a'erts are mere alerts. Without further forensics they are meaningless (source-Mr Grime.)
How disappointing, Debunker ! Could you try at least to develop the interesting idea of a McCann scent ? Isn't the idea a cadaver dog would ignore Shalimar a bit upsetting ?
Unlike some, I rely on facts rather than speculation.
Any scent can be learned or unlearned by a scent dog.
Dog alerts are meaningless without further forensic support.
"Any scent can be learned by a scent dog", sure ! But cadaver dogs aren't sniffer dogs ! Death is the big equality provider : once dead we all smell the same.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: icabodcrane on April 23, 2013, 01:20:23 AM
No-one knows. Dog a'erts are mere alerts. Without further forensics they are meaningless (source-Mr Grime.)
How disappointing, Debunker ! Could you try at least to develop the interesting idea of a McCann scent ? Isn't the idea a cadaver dog would ignore Shalimar a bit upsetting ?
Unlike some, I rely on facts rather than speculation.
Any scent can be learned or unlearned by a scent dog.
Dog alerts are meaningless without further forensic support.
The facts you rely on would be more convincing, debunker, if they lead to an informed conclusion of what the dogs were likely to have been alerting to ... they did alert, afterall ... to something
If all your research cannot provide an answer to the simple question "What were the dogs most likely to have been alerting to in apartment 5A ?" ... then the facts you rely on aren't very productive, are they ? ( meaningless even )
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: AnneGuedes on April 23, 2013, 01:52:15 AM
No-one knows. Dog a'erts are mere alerts. Without further forensics they are meaningless (source-Mr Grime.)
How disappointing, Debunker ! Could you try at least to develop the interesting idea of a McCann scent ? Isn't the idea a cadaver dog would ignore Shalimar a bit upsetting ?
Unlike some, I rely on facts rather than speculation.
Any scent can be learned or unlearned by a scent dog.
Dog alerts are meaningless without further forensic support.
The facts you rely on would be more convincing, debunker, if they lead to an informed conclusion of what the dogs were likely to have been alerting to ... they did alert, afterall ... to something
If all your research cannot provide an answer to the simple question "What were the dogs most likely to have been alerting to in apartment 5A ?" ... then the facts you rely on aren't very productive, are they ? ( meaningless even )
Isabel Duarte, in court, assumed Eddie would alert to pork, without suggesting though that a dead pig was disposed of for a while in the G5A.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 23, 2013, 07:07:58 AM
@ Debunker I've read the articles you sent (thank you !) about the reliability of dogs. I had read about this and I have no doubt it's an issue. A US handler was even condemned if I remind well for having manipulated her dog. Many handlers, I suppose, aren't professional but wish they were. Challenge might also explain conscious or unconscious tricks. Now this reliability, being a crucial point, is systematically tested, I think twice a year is the rule for handlers of the police force. Not only the handler and the dog are tested separately, but they are tested as a team as well.
What tests? Who does them? Where are the full results available? What is the average success/failure rate?
Cite please for your suggestion about testing, and answers please to the above questions.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 23, 2013, 07:23:56 AM
No-one knows. Dog a'erts are mere alerts. Without further forensics they are meaningless (source-Mr Grime.)
How disappointing, Debunker ! Could you try at least to develop the interesting idea of a McCann scent ? Isn't the idea a cadaver dog would ignore Shalimar a bit upsetting ?
Unlike some, I rely on facts rather than speculation.
Any scent can be learned or unlearned by a scent dog.
Dog alerts are meaningless without further forensic support.
The facts you rely on would be more convincing, debunker, if they lead to an informed conclusion of what the dogs were likely to have been alerting to ... they did alert, afterall ... to something
If all your research cannot provide an answer to the simple question "What were the dogs most likely to have been alerting to in apartment 5A ?" ... then the facts you rely on aren't very productive, are they ? ( meaningless even )
How can anyone know in retrospect what a dog alerted to in the past. It is an unanswerable question.
What we do know is:
1/ Any measurement involves errors. 2/ Peer reviewed and published research shows that dogs make errors at rates betwen 35% and 90%. No real life scenario has ever shown anything approaching 100% accuracy. 3/ Unpublished reports by dog advocates result in claims with no scientific validity. 4/ Mr Grime never claims infallibility for his dogs; he is careful not to as this would open him to aggressive and valid cross exam inflation. 5/ Mr Grime states that dog alerts cannot of themselves be real evidence and can only be used as indications about where to look for real forensic evidence. 6/ No such evidence was found in this case. 7/ The dogs in this case were deployed in doubtful ways with poor controls- cuing in the car park, weird methods with the clothes. In many instances they were just designed to find blood rather than cadaver odor. Only three of many pairs of results indicated possible cadaver presence. 8/ Tandem use of dogs results in accuracy being reduced by the square of the single deployment rate.
And so on.
The scientific fact is that the DNA results tell us little more than absolute chance.
There is no forensic evidence indicative of death or any other physical harm coming to Madeleine before or during her disappearance.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: stephen25000 on April 23, 2013, 08:05:47 AM
For reference purposes.
'article
Originally written on 7th June 2008
Article by Dr Rosemary Claire Taylor MA MB BChir (Cantab)
Olfaction, the act or process of smelling, is the primary special sense possessed by dogs. A dog’s sense of smell is a thousand times more sensitive than humans. Dogs have more than 220 million olfactory receptors in their nose, whereas humans only have 5 million. Specially trained dogs have been used to locate forensic cadaver material and disaster survivors. Highly trained dogs assisted the emergency services in the aftermath of the terrorist attack on the World Trade Centre on September 11th, 2001. Cadaver dogs need to undergo rigorous training. Prior to beginning a specialised training programme, these dogs need to have basic obedience skills. The cue a dog uses to indicate forensic material depends on the trainer. Some dogs are trained to bark to indicate cadavers, whereas others scratch at the area in the crime scene. Dogs are given a verbal cue to start searching, and directional cues such as “check it out” to indicate an area requiring a more detailed search. A variety of breeds can be trained to hunt forensic material. Bloodhounds, springer spaniels and labradors are commonly used. Trained cadaver dogs have the ability to detect decomposing bodies beneath running water, for example when a corpse is weighted down, and placed at the bottom of a river. I have done a thorough search of academic journals on this subject, and will present my findings as follows: 1. Cadaver dogs are known as valuable forensic tools in crime scene investigations. Scientific research attempting to verify their value is largely lacking, specifically for scents associated with the early postmortem interval. The aim of our investigation was the comparative evaluation of the reliability, accuracy, and specificity of three cadaver dogs belonging to the Hamburg State Police in the detection of scents during the early postmortem interval. Carpet squares were used as an odor transporting media after they had been contaminated with the scent of two recently deceased bodies (bodies are all less than 3 hours old). The contamination occurred for 2 min as well as 10 min without any direct contact between the carpet and the corpse. Comparative searches by the dogs were performed over a time period of 65 days (10 min contamination) and 35 days (2 min contamination). The results of this study indicate that the well-trained cadaver dog is an outstanding tool for crime scene investigation displaying excellent sensitivity (75-100), specificity (91-100), and having a positive predictive value (90-100), negative predictive value (90-100) as well as accuracy (92-100). Reference: Cadaver dogs–a study on detection of contaminated carpet squares. Oesterhelweg L, Kröber S, Rottmann K, Willhöft J, Braun C, Thies N, Püschel K, Silkenath J, Gehl A. Institute of Legal Medicine, University Medical Center Hamburg, Germany. Notes on the scientific terminology in this study; Sensitivity means the number of correct detections out of 100. Here, all dogs managed to correctly identify 75-100 carpet squares out of 100. This is a good success rate. Specificity describes the number of false identifications. A sensitivity of 91 out of 100 means, at most, there are 9 false positives in a sample of 100 uncontaminated squares. This is a good specificity, much higher than cervical screening, which can detect far more false positives. The Positive Predictive Value can be defined as;
In other words, out of 100, there are 75-100 true positives, and 0-9 false positives. A positive predictive value describes the percentage chance, if a sample is contaminated, that the dog will discover it. The value of 90-100 means that, out of 100 contaminated squares, at least 90 are correctly identified by the dog. The Negative Predictive Value can be defined as;
In other words, out of 100, there are 0-9 false positives and 0-25 false negatives. A negative predictive value describes the chance that, if a sample is not contaminated, the dog will correctly identify the sample as clear of human remains. The study quotes a negative predictive value of 90-100. This means only 0-10 ‘clean’ squares are wrongly identified as contaminated by the dogs. Accuracy is the degree to which the evidence presented by the dogs matches known information about which squares were marked. The accuracy of dog detection is presented as 92-100. This means that dogs correctly identify carpet squares as ‘marked’ or ‘unmarked’ in at least 92 cases out of 100. This is an impressive accuracy score. In addition, I think it is important to consider that this is an experiment, not real life. In reality cadaver dogs are given more time to assess possible traces of human remains. Hence in a true police setting, cadaver dogs are more likely to give accurate information. 2. Specially trained air scent detection canines (Canis familiaris) are commonly used by law enforcement to detect narcotics, explosives or contraband, and by fire investigators to detect the presence of accelerants. Dogs are also used by police, military, and civilian groups to locate lost or missing persons, as well as victims of natural or mass disasters. A further subspecialty is “cadaver” searching, or the use of canines to locate buried or concealed human remains. Recent forensic investigations in central Alberta demonstrated that the use of cadaver dogs could be expanded to include locating partial, scattered human remains dispersed by repeated animal scavenging. Eight dog-and-handler teams participated in a two-month training program using human and animal remains in various stages of decay as scent sources. Ten blind field tests were then conducted which simulated actual search conditions. Recovery rates ranged between 57% and 100%, indicating that properly trained cadaver dogs can make significant contributions in the location and recovery of scattered human remains. Reference: J Forensic Sci. 1999 Mar;44(2):405-8. The use of cadaver dogs in locating scattered, scavenged human remains: preliminary field test results. Komar D. Department of Anthropology, University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada. This study was written in 1999. Nonetheless, in situations where there are scattered human remains, dogs identify them in 57-100% of cases. 3. The detection of human remains that have been deliberately buried to escape detection is a problem for law enforcement. Sometimes the cadaver dog and handler teams are successful, while other times law enforcement and cadaver dog teams are frustrated in their search. Five field trials tested the ability of four cadaver dog and handler teams to detect buried human remains. Human and animal remains were buried in various forested areas during the summer months near Tuscaloosa, Alabama. The remains ranged in decomposition from fresh to skeletonised. Cadaver dogs detected with varying success: buried human remains at different stages of decomposition, buried human remains at different depths, and buried decomposed human and animal remains. The results from these trials showed that some cadaver dogs were able to locate skeletonised remains buried at a significant depth. Fresh and skeletonised remains were found equally by the cadaver dogs along with some caveats. Dog handlers affected the reliability of the cadaver dog results. Observations and videotape of the cadaver dogs during field trials showed that they were reliable in finding buried human remains. Reference: J Forensic Sci. 2003 May;48(3):617-21. Cadaver dog and handler team capabilities in the recovery of buried human remains in the southeastern United States.Lasseter AE, Jacobi KP, Farley R, Hensel L. Department of Anthropology, University of Alabama, Tuscaloosa, AL 35487-0210, USA. This is an impressive study. The salient points are that cadaver dogs can identify a corpse, or a piece of a corpse, which had been buried at a significant depth. This gives the dog handlers an opportunity to investigate a more ‘real life’ crime scene. Following a murder, it is normal for a criminal to hide any human remains, often by burying the corpse. It appears that these dogs can still detect the ‘smell of death’, when a body part is buried deep in a forest. The Eugene Zapata Case Eugene Zapata’s wife, Jeanette Zapata was last seen on October 11th, 1976. Her body was never found. Police suspected that her husband had murdered her, but without sufficient evidence to arrest him, her disappearance became a cold case. It was reopened due to pressure from Mrs Zapata’s loved ones, and cadaver dogs were used to locate her remains. The link for this article is http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1541908/posts Jeanette “Jean” Zapata sent her two teenage daughters and 6-year-old son to school shortly after 8 a.m. Oct. 11, 1976. They last saw her as she sat at the kitchen table in their East Side home near La Follette High School wearing blue corduroys and a striped top. The 36-year-old flight instructor – who was divorcing her husband – was never heard from again. Madison Police Capt. Tom Snyder said Thursday that the husband, Eugene J. Zapata, is their primary and only suspect. He lives in Nevada with his second wife. According to a search warrant executed by police in August but kept sealed until Thursday morning, dogs trained to detect human remains reacted to two locations connected to Eugene Zapata – a crawl space in the couple’s former home and a storage locker in Sun Prairie. Two days after Jeanette Zapata’s children saw her for the last time, Ivan Norton, an accountant at Frickleton School of Aeronautics, reported her missing because she hadn’t come to work. “If she told you to make an appointment at a certain time, she was there ahead of schedule to make sure it all went right,” Norton, 69, said Thursday. “She was very nice and very prompt and that was the whole thing that was concerning us. She was like a time clock.” Immediately after she disappeared, her purse and other belongings, including her new car, were found at the home, but a .30-06 rifle was missing. Investigators said in the search warrant: Officers have questioned Eugene Zapata several times over the past 30 years and he sometimes provided contradictory statements. Zapata told police he argued with his wife over visitation rights to their children a few days before she disappeared. The day she vanished, they met with the La Follette High School principal to discuss their oldest daughter. One time he told police he called the morning of Oct. 11 to cancel the meeting. On another occasion, he said he went to the house at 9 a.m. to pick her up. Jean Zapata had obtained a court order that restricted his time with the children in the home to two hours on Saturday mornings. His employment records at the state Department of Transportation indicate he worked from 7:45 to 8:45 a.m. the day she disappeared, was off work the following day, Oct. 12, and then came in to work at 12:30 p.m. Oct. 13. He told police he took Oct. 12 off to care for his children at home, but investigators verified the children were at school. Zapata did not respond to messages from the State Journal asking for an interview. In a 1987 State Journal article, he said he believed his former wife ran away. “It may have been just the pressure of it because I filed for custody of the kids,” Zapata said then. “She was a very strong-willed person. If she made up her mind that she wanted to disappear, she could do it.” Investigators suspected Zapata, but lacking leads they had shelved the case. It was reactivated a year ago after one of Jean Zapata’s childhood friends called asking about its status, Snyder said. New detection techniques, including “cadaver dogs” that can find faint odors of human remains, pushed the investigation forward. According to court documents, dogs twice signaled that they had found the scent of human remains in an unused basement crawl space at the Zapatas’ former home on Indian Trace, and a human hair was excavated. Police will not say whether test results indicate that it belonged to Jean Zapata. Eugene Zapata sold the house in 1997. In 2001, he moved to Nevada. He rented a storage facility in Sun Prairie that year and listed its contents as “boxes, mixture of son’s and parent’s stuff.” According to the search warrant: On April 13, 2005, police left a message for Eugene Zapata with his wife in Nevada. The next day, the locker’s key was returned to U-Store Mini Storage in Sun Prairie. The empty locker remained locked until Aug. 10 and 11 when police opened it. Dogs detected the scent of decomposing or decomposed human remains inside and around the locker, the search warrant indicates. That prompted a search of four acres in rural Juneau County owned by Zapata since 1978. Nothing was found on the land, which was for sale. Snyder stopped short Thursday of saying he believes Jean Zapata was murdered by her husband and could not predict if an arrest was imminent. But he did say he believes she met with foul play and her husband is the only suspect. The McCanns’ lawyers used the Zapata case to indicate an example of how a seemingly innocent man, can be incriminated by the cadaver dog evidence.'
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: stephen25000 on April 23, 2013, 08:09:43 AM
'7/ The dogs in this case were deployed in doubtful ways with poor controls- cuing in the car park, weird methods with the clothes. In many instances they were just designed to find blood rather than cadaver odor. Only three of many pairs of results indicated possible cadaver presence.'
'doubtful ways with poor controls'
What exactly are your qualifications in this field of work ?
Again the results were inconclusive.
Meanwhile evidence of abduction, NONE, other than jumbled rhetoric such as 'sadie's theory.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 23, 2013, 11:34:12 AM
Article by Dr Rosemary Claire Taylor MA MB BChir (Cantab)
Olfaction, the act or process of smelling, is the primary special sense possessed by dogs. A dog’s sense of smell is a thousand times more sensitive than humans. Dogs have more than 220 million olfactory receptors in their nose, whereas humans only have 5 million. Specially trained dogs have been used to locate forensic cadaver material and disaster survivors. Highly trained dogs assisted the emergency services in the aftermath of the terrorist attack on the World Trade Centre on September 11th, 2001. Cadaver dogs need to undergo rigorous training. Prior to beginning a specialised training programme, these dogs need to have basic obedience skills. The cue a dog uses to indicate forensic material depends on the trainer. Some dogs are trained to bark to indicate cadavers, whereas others scratch at the area in the crime scene. Dogs are given a verbal cue to start searching, and directional cues such as “check it out” to indicate an area requiring a more detailed search. A variety of breeds can be trained to hunt forensic material. Bloodhounds, springer spaniels and labradors are commonly used. Trained cadaver dogs have the ability to detect decomposing bodies beneath running water, for example when a corpse is weighted down, and placed at the bottom of a river. I have done a thorough search of academic journals on this subject, and will present my findings as follows: 1. Cadaver dogs are known as valuable forensic tools in crime scene investigations. Scientific research attempting to verify their value is largely lacking, specifically for scents associated with the early postmortem interval. The aim of our investigation was the comparative evaluation of the reliability, accuracy, and specificity of three cadaver dogs belonging to the Hamburg State Police in the detection of scents during the early postmortem interval. Carpet squares were used as an odor transporting media after they had been contaminated with the scent of two recently deceased bodies (bodies are all less than 3 hours old). The contamination occurred for 2 min as well as 10 min without any direct contact between the carpet and the corpse. Comparative searches by the dogs were performed over a time period of 65 days (10 min contamination) and 35 days (2 min contamination). The results of this study indicate that the well-trained cadaver dog is an outstanding tool for crime scene investigation displaying excellent sensitivity (75-100), specificity (91-100), and having a positive predictive value (90-100), negative predictive value (90-100) as well as accuracy (92-100). Reference: Cadaver dogs–a study on detection of contaminated carpet squares. Oesterhelweg L, Kröber S, Rottmann K, Willhöft J, Braun C, Thies N, Püschel K, Silkenath J, Gehl A. Institute of Legal Medicine, University Medical Center Hamburg, Germany. Notes on the scientific terminology in this study; Sensitivity means the number of correct detections out of 100. Here, all dogs managed to correctly identify 75-100 carpet squares out of 100. This is a good success rate. Specificity describes the number of false identifications. A sensitivity of 91 out of 100 means, at most, there are 9 false positives in a sample of 100 uncontaminated squares. This is a good specificity, much higher than cervical screening, which can detect far more false positives. The Positive Predictive Value can be defined as;
In other words, out of 100, there are 75-100 true positives, and 0-9 false positives. A positive predictive value describes the percentage chance, if a sample is contaminated, that the dog will discover it. The value of 90-100 means that, out of 100 contaminated squares, at least 90 are correctly identified by the dog. The Negative Predictive Value can be defined as;
In other words, out of 100, there are 0-9 false positives and 0-25 false negatives. A negative predictive value describes the chance that, if a sample is not contaminated, the dog will correctly identify the sample as clear of human remains. The study quotes a negative predictive value of 90-100. This means only 0-10 ‘clean’ squares are wrongly identified as contaminated by the dogs. Accuracy is the degree to which the evidence presented by the dogs matches known information about which squares were marked. The accuracy of dog detection is presented as 92-100. This means that dogs correctly identify carpet squares as ‘marked’ or ‘unmarked’ in at least 92 cases out of 100. This is an impressive accuracy score. In addition, I think it is important to consider that this is an experiment, not real life. In reality cadaver dogs are given more time to assess possible traces of human remains. Hence in a true police setting, cadaver dogs are more likely to give accurate information. 2. Specially trained air scent detection canines (Canis familiaris) are commonly used by law enforcement to detect narcotics, explosives or contraband, and by fire investigators to detect the presence of accelerants. Dogs are also used by police, military, and civilian groups to locate lost or missing persons, as well as victims of natural or mass disasters. A further subspecialty is “cadaver” searching, or the use of canines to locate buried or concealed human remains. Recent forensic investigations in central Alberta demonstrated that the use of cadaver dogs could be expanded to include locating partial, scattered human remains dispersed by repeated animal scavenging. Eight dog-and-handler teams participated in a two-month training program using human and animal remains in various stages of decay as scent sources. Ten blind field tests were then conducted which simulated actual search conditions. Recovery rates ranged between 57% and 100%, indicating that properly trained cadaver dogs can make significant contributions in the location and recovery of scattered human remains. Reference: J Forensic Sci. 1999 Mar;44(2):405-8. The use of cadaver dogs in locating scattered, scavenged human remains: preliminary field test results. Komar D. Department of Anthropology, University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada. This study was written in 1999. Nonetheless, in situations where there are scattered human remains, dogs identify them in 57-100% of cases. 3. The detection of human remains that have been deliberately buried to escape detection is a problem for law enforcement. Sometimes the cadaver dog and handler teams are successful, while other times law enforcement and cadaver dog teams are frustrated in their search. Five field trials tested the ability of four cadaver dog and handler teams to detect buried human remains. Human and animal remains were buried in various forested areas during the summer months near Tuscaloosa, Alabama. The remains ranged in decomposition from fresh to skeletonised. Cadaver dogs detected with varying success: buried human remains at different stages of decomposition, buried human remains at different depths, and buried decomposed human and animal remains. The results from these trials showed that some cadaver dogs were able to locate skeletonised remains buried at a significant depth. Fresh and skeletonised remains were found equally by the cadaver dogs along with some caveats. Dog handlers affected the reliability of the cadaver dog results. Observations and videotape of the cadaver dogs during field trials showed that they were reliable in finding buried human remains. Reference: J Forensic Sci. 2003 May;48(3):617-21. Cadaver dog and handler team capabilities in the recovery of buried human remains in the southeastern United States.Lasseter AE, Jacobi KP, Farley R, Hensel L. Department of Anthropology, University of Alabama, Tuscaloosa, AL 35487-0210, USA. This is an impressive study. The salient points are that cadaver dogs can identify a corpse, or a piece of a corpse, which had been buried at a significant depth. This gives the dog handlers an opportunity to investigate a more ‘real life’ crime scene. Following a murder, it is normal for a criminal to hide any human remains, often by burying the corpse. It appears that these dogs can still detect the ‘smell of death’, when a body part is buried deep in a forest. The Eugene Zapata Case Eugene Zapata’s wife, Jeanette Zapata was last seen on October 11th, 1976. Her body was never found. Police suspected that her husband had murdered her, but without sufficient evidence to arrest him, her disappearance became a cold case. It was reopened due to pressure from Mrs Zapata’s loved ones, and cadaver dogs were used to locate her remains. The link for this article is http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1541908/posts Jeanette “Jean” Zapata sent her two teenage daughters and 6-year-old son to school shortly after 8 a.m. Oct. 11, 1976. They last saw her as she sat at the kitchen table in their East Side home near La Follette High School wearing blue corduroys and a striped top. The 36-year-old flight instructor – who was divorcing her husband – was never heard from again. Madison Police Capt. Tom Snyder said Thursday that the husband, Eugene J. Zapata, is their primary and only suspect. He lives in Nevada with his second wife. According to a search warrant executed by police in August but kept sealed until Thursday morning, dogs trained to detect human remains reacted to two locations connected to Eugene Zapata – a crawl space in the couple’s former home and a storage locker in Sun Prairie. Two days after Jeanette Zapata’s children saw her for the last time, Ivan Norton, an accountant at Frickleton School of Aeronautics, reported her missing because she hadn’t come to work. “If she told you to make an appointment at a certain time, she was there ahead of schedule to make sure it all went right,” Norton, 69, said Thursday. “She was very nice and very prompt and that was the whole thing that was concerning us. She was like a time clock.” Immediately after she disappeared, her purse and other belongings, including her new car, were found at the home, but a .30-06 rifle was missing. Investigators said in the search warrant: Officers have questioned Eugene Zapata several times over the past 30 years and he sometimes provided contradictory statements. Zapata told police he argued with his wife over visitation rights to their children a few days before she disappeared. The day she vanished, they met with the La Follette High School principal to discuss their oldest daughter. One time he told police he called the morning of Oct. 11 to cancel the meeting. On another occasion, he said he went to the house at 9 a.m. to pick her up. Jean Zapata had obtained a court order that restricted his time with the children in the home to two hours on Saturday mornings. His employment records at the state Department of Transportation indicate he worked from 7:45 to 8:45 a.m. the day she disappeared, was off work the following day, Oct. 12, and then came in to work at 12:30 p.m. Oct. 13. He told police he took Oct. 12 off to care for his children at home, but investigators verified the children were at school. Zapata did not respond to messages from the State Journal asking for an interview. In a 1987 State Journal article, he said he believed his former wife ran away. “It may have been just the pressure of it because I filed for custody of the kids,” Zapata said then. “She was a very strong-willed person. If she made up her mind that she wanted to disappear, she could do it.” Investigators suspected Zapata, but lacking leads they had shelved the case. It was reactivated a year ago after one of Jean Zapata’s childhood friends called asking about its status, Snyder said. New detection techniques, including “cadaver dogs” that can find faint odors of human remains, pushed the investigation forward. According to court documents, dogs twice signaled that they had found the scent of human remains in an unused basement crawl space at the Zapatas’ former home on Indian Trace, and a human hair was excavated. Police will not say whether test results indicate that it belonged to Jean Zapata. Eugene Zapata sold the house in 1997. In 2001, he moved to Nevada. He rented a storage facility in Sun Prairie that year and listed its contents as “boxes, mixture of son’s and parent’s stuff.” According to the search warrant: On April 13, 2005, police left a message for Eugene Zapata with his wife in Nevada. The next day, the locker’s key was returned to U-Store Mini Storage in Sun Prairie. The empty locker remained locked until Aug. 10 and 11 when police opened it. Dogs detected the scent of decomposing or decomposed human remains inside and around the locker, the search warrant indicates. That prompted a search of four acres in rural Juneau County owned by Zapata since 1978. Nothing was found on the land, which was for sale. Snyder stopped short Thursday of saying he believes Jean Zapata was murdered by her husband and could not predict if an arrest was imminent. But he did say he believes she met with foul play and her husband is the only suspect. The McCanns’ lawyers used the Zapata case to indicate an example of how a seemingly innocent man, can be incriminated by the cadaver dog evidence.'
The first report supports what I have said.
The second one is about a completely different matter.
The third one is an unsupported non-scientific press piece.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: AnneGuedes on April 23, 2013, 11:35:47 AM
How can anyone know in retrospect what a dog alerted to in the past. It is an unanswerable question.
What we do know is:
1/ Any measurement involves errors. 2/ Peer reviewed and published research shows that dogs make errors at rates betwen 35% and 90%. No real life scenario has ever shown anything approaching 100% accuracy. 3/ Unpublished reports by dog advocates result in claims with no scientific validity. 4/ Mr Grime never claims infallibility for his dogs; he is careful not to as this would open him to aggressive and valid cross exam inflation. 5/ Mr Grime states that dog alerts cannot of themselves be real evidence and can only be used as indications about where to look for real forensic evidence. 6/ No such evidence was found in this case. 7/ The dogs in this case were deployed in doubtful ways with poor controls- cuing in the car park, weird methods with the clothes. In many instances they were just designed to find blood rather than cadaver odor. Only three of many pairs of results indicated possible cadaver presence. 8/ Tandem use of dogs results in accuracy being reduced by the square of the single deployment rate.
And so on.
The scientific fact is that the DNA results tell us little more than absolute chance.
There is no forensic evidence indicative of death or any other physical harm coming to Madeleine before or during her disappearance.
Could you describe what Mark Harrison should have required but didn't, for obscure reasons ? The fact no forensic evidence was found doesn't mean death didn't occur in that flat. If you don't agree, please let me know. Now the fact the cadaver dog alerted 3 times to volatile molecules that couldn't be forensically analysed is no evidence for sure but can be reasonably considered as a presumption of a death event. Associated with physical disappearance, the presumption gains a certain weight, but it's still no evidence. Saying so is reckoning the dog's reaction has a rational explanation, yet still ignored in the state of scientific researches on dog's olfaction. I'd like to know if you agree with this, Debunker. Apart from the fact I find it not productive your criticizing the way Mark Harrison led the dogs operation, I don't agree with you on the issue of what you call "physical harm", as if body and mental were autonomous. I understand Madeleine's parents keep assuming there's no evidence she was harmed, because this thought is unbearable, but you ?
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 23, 2013, 11:37:35 AM
'7/ The dogs in this case were deployed in doubtful ways with poor controls- cuing in the car park, weird methods with the clothes. In many instances they were just designed to find blood rather than cadaver odor. Only three of many pairs of results indicated possible cadaver presence.'
'doubtful ways with poor controls'
What exactly are your qualifications in this field of work ?
Again the results were inconclusive.
Meanwhile evidence of abduction, NONE, other than jumbled rhetoric such as 'sadie's theory.
Obvious cuing errors in the full length film of the car park test.
No avoidance of cross contamination in the clothing test.
Undue pressure re cuddle cat.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 23, 2013, 11:44:05 AM
Could you describe what Mark Harrison should have required but didn't, for obscure reasons ? The fact no forensic evidence was found doesn't mean death didn't occur in that flat. If you don't agree, please let me know. Now the fact the cadaver dog alerted 3 times to volatile molecules that couldn't be forensically analysed is no evidence for sure but can be reasonably considered as a presumption of a death event. Associated with physical disappearance, the presumption gains a certain weight, but it's still no evidence. Saying so is reckoning the dog's reaction has a rational explanation, yet still ignored in the state of scientific researches on dog's olfaction. I'd like to know if you agree with this, Debunker. Apart from the fact I find it not productive your criticizing the way Mark Harrison led the dogs operation, I don't agree with you on the issue of what you call "physical harm", as if body and mental were autonomous. I understand Madeleine's parents keep assuming there's no evidence she was harmed, because this thought is unbearable, but you ?
It is incorrect to say as you do:
"Now the fact the cadaver dog alerted 3 times to volatile molecules that couldn't be forensically analysed is no evidence for sure but can be reasonably considered as a presumption of a death event. "
WHich assumes an answer and is an incorrect inference. All one can say is that the dog alerted. Unless cadaverous material is found by further forensic analysis, the dog alerts mean nothing at all- they could just be errors.
The rest of the post is merely your opinion.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: AnneGuedes on April 23, 2013, 11:44:32 AM
In the full length garage film, the Scenic was in which checking position ?
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 23, 2013, 11:48:51 AM
In the full length garage film, the Scenic was in which checking position ?
Why does that matter. What maters is that Mr Grime knew which was the McCann's vehicle, called Eddie back nine times (compared with once OK r twice for other vehicles) and pressured Eddie to react, spending five times longer at that car before a reaction than with any other car.
Andthen all it showed was that there was blood in the vehicle- Gerry's blood was recovered from the key fob in the vehicle.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: AnneGuedes on April 23, 2013, 11:49:33 AM
I wrote it badly : "Now the fact the cadaver dog alerted 3 times to volatile molecules that couldn't be forensically analysed is SURELY no evidence for sure but can be reasonably considered as a presumption of a death event." May be one day those volatile molecules will be identified by the device on which US investigators are working : a "dog nose" without affects and then possible bias.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 23, 2013, 12:00:57 PM
I wrote it badly : "Now the fact the cadaver dog alerted 3 times to volatile molecules that couldn't be forensically analysed is SURELY no evidence for sure but can be reasonably considered as a presumption of a death event." May be one day those volatile molecules will be identified by the device on which US investigators are working : a "dog nose" without affects and then possible bias.
The dog reacted to somethig. It might have beenvolatile molecules or it might have been a simple error. We shall never know as the samples are no longer available.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: AnneGuedes on April 23, 2013, 12:08:34 PM
In the full length garage film, the Scenic was in which checking position ?
Why does that matter. What maters is that Mr Grime knew which was the McCann's vehicle, called Eddie back nine times (compared with once OK r twice for other vehicles) and pressured Eddie to react, spending five times longer at that car before a reaction than with any other car.
Andthen all it showed was that there was blood in the vehicle- Gerry's blood was recovered from the key fob in the vehicle.
Which seems to imply Harrison, Grime and the PJ were dishonest (and fools as well since they filmed it). Are you a member of the police's police ?
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: AnneGuedes on April 23, 2013, 12:14:18 PM
I wrote it badly : "Now the fact the cadaver dog alerted 3 times to volatile molecules that couldn't be forensically analysed is SURELY no evidence for sure but can be reasonably considered as a presumption of a death event." May be one day those volatile molecules will be identified by the device on which US investigators are working : a "dog nose" without affects and then possible bias.
The dog reacted to somethig. It might have beenvolatile molecules or it might have been a simple error. We shall never know as the samples are no longer available.
A "simple" error ? Have you already smelt death scent ? If yes, can you mentally reproduce this scent and feel as if you were smelling it ? I can't, but when smelt in reality I don't need to see the corpse to know what the scent is.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 23, 2013, 12:34:03 PM
In the full length garage film, the Scenic was in which checking position ?
Why does that matter. What maters is that Mr Grime knew which was the McCann's vehicle, called Eddie back nine times (compared with once OK r twice for other vehicles) and pressured Eddie to react, spending five times longer at that car before a reaction than with any other car.
Andthen all it showed was that there was blood in the vehicle- Gerry's blood was recovered from the key fob in the vehicle.
Which seems to imply Harrison, Grime and the PJ were dishonest (and fools as well since they filmed it). Are you a member of the police's police ?
You really must work on your English usage. I have not implied any dishonesty nor foolishness, mere normal human failings.
I have respect for truth and the way it is determined.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Carana on April 23, 2013, 12:38:18 PM
When, in a hot summer night, you open your window and feel so good that you don't feel like going to bed, slowly but surely around 4 am a flavour invades your sitting room, a flavour of bread just being baked, how would you back this if you didn't know there's a baker a hundred meters away ?
Delicately phrased, Anne.
But how was Eddie supposed to explain whether what he detected was the smell of a wholemeal loaf of bread, a croissant or a scone?
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: AnneGuedes on April 23, 2013, 01:03:34 PM
In the full length garage film, the Scenic was in which checking position ?
Why does that matter. What maters is that Mr Grime knew which was the McCann's vehicle, called Eddie back nine times (compared with once OK r twice for other vehicles) and pressured Eddie to react, spending five times longer at that car before a reaction than with any other car.
Andthen all it showed was that there was blood in the vehicle- Gerry's blood was recovered from the key fob in the vehicle.
Which seems to imply Harrison, Grime and the PJ were dishonest (and fools as well since they filmed it). Are you a member of the police's police ?
You really must work on your English usage. I have not implied any dishonesty nor foolishness, mere normal human failings.
I have respect for truth and the way it is determined.
After denigrating the modus operandi of these professionals, you expect "normal human failings" from two experts, joined in a delicate task (neither you nor me can judge because we're not professionals) and checking each other in order to get acceptable results ? Do you trust someone except you ?
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: AnneGuedes on April 23, 2013, 01:10:40 PM
You really must work on your English usage. Debunker, you know as any one what it means when the argumento ad hominem pops up !
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 23, 2013, 01:17:06 PM
In the full length garage film, the Scenic was in which checking position ?
Why does that matter. What maters is that Mr Grime knew which was the McCann's vehicle, called Eddie back nine times (compared with once OK r twice for other vehicles) and pressured Eddie to react, spending five times longer at that car before a reaction than with any other car.
Andthen all it showed was that there was blood in the vehicle- Gerry's blood was recovered from the key fob in the vehicle.
Which seems to imply Harrison, Grime and the PJ were dishonest (and fools as well since they filmed it). Are you a member of the police's police ?
You really must work on your English usage. I have not implied any dishonesty nor foolishness, mere normal human failings.
I have respect for truth and the way it is determined.
After denigrating the modus operandi of these professionals, you expect "normal human failings" from two experts, joined in a delicate task (neither you nor me can judge because we're not professionals) and checking each other in order to get acceptable results ? Do you trust someone except you ?
I trust science. Science explains how dogs and handlers are less than perfect. Mr Grime agrees- he carefully never claims that alerts are indicative of anything other than possibility- as he says, without further forensic evidence, alerts are without probative weight. That is Grime saying that, not me.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 23, 2013, 01:19:29 PM
You really must work on your English usage. Debunker, you know as any one what it means when the argumento ad hominem pops up !
That is not ad hominem.
You misused an English word and distorted what I was saying. You pretended that I had accused people of dishonesty and you were wrong. I pointed out the error of your inference and argument.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: AnneGuedes on April 23, 2013, 01:25:06 PM
When "normal human failure" of a professional is observed by another professional who nevertheless doesn't react, is it also "normal human failure" ?
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 23, 2013, 01:26:33 PM
But how was Eddie supposed to explain whether what he detected was the smell of a wholemeal loaf of bread, a croissant or a scone?
Hi Carana ! Eddie was working : kind of playing for him but a task with a beginning and an end and a reward whether he found the scent or not. Some handlers even use a special long trail as a signal for the dog that "the" task has started. So I don't doubt Eddie was smelling the odour he's been trained to alert to. He was smelling or thought he was smelling ? Who knows if dogs can be abused by their memories ?
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: AnneGuedes on April 23, 2013, 01:50:52 PM
When "normal human failure" of a professional is observed by another professional who nevertheless doesn't react, is it also "normal human failure" ?
All humans (and dogs) are fallible.
Failings of procedure are apparent from the videos and narratives.
Debunker, I admit, I always have, that I was perplex as well when I watched the garage video. Don't scream ! Then I read the reports but found nothing weird in them. Then I read a lot of articles about dog training and the relationship woven between handler and dog (I never had a dog, but I had a horse and thus an idea about the relationship human being-domestic animal). Then I spoke with some handlers (not professional) who explained to me how the dog, when picking up the scent will turn in circles using the wind to try to find where the scent is located and how the dog must be supported since he risks exhaustion. Then I discovered the Scenic was the 4th car inspected and that the watched video was an extract. Well, unlike you, I decided to trust MH and MG, especially the first one because I found very impressive and serene the way he approached this case. Also I thought that had this video shown some "normal human failure" it would have been destroyed. Policemen aren't supposed to be saints.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Carana on April 23, 2013, 02:12:48 PM
But how was Eddie supposed to explain whether what he detected was the smell of a wholemeal loaf of bread, a croissant or a scone?
Hi Carana ! Eddie was working : kind of playing for him but a task with a beginning and an end and a reward whether he found the scent or not. Some handlers even use a special long trail as a signal for the dog that "the" task has started. So I don't doubt Eddie was smelling the odour he's been trained to alert to. He was smelling or thought he was smelling ? Who knows if dogs can be abused by their memories ?
Hi Anne.
From what I can gather, these dogs had an affectionate "home" life when they were not working.
I presume that there must be some kind of signal to tell them when they were in work mode - otherwise they would be alerting to any minor incident at "home" which would make "home" life somewhat complicated.
My issue is that Eddie doesn't just react to the odour of a dead person, but also to other decomposing substances which could be totally irrelevant to the work task.
Would (e.g.) a bloodied bandaid from the foot of an occupant from a week or more prior to this inspection, perhaps removed during cleaning, or perhaps not swept from under a bed, have generated this response, or not?
Did they move the beds to check if anything innocent was underneath? Did they turn over the mattresses to check?
ETA: Was a cleaning employee ever asked (who would have been responsible for the post-disappearance cleaning duties)?
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Carana on April 23, 2013, 02:16:41 PM
You really must work on your English usage. Debunker, you know as any one what it means when the argumento ad hominem pops up !
That is not ad hominem.
You misused an English word and distorted what I was saying. You pretended that I had accused people of dishonesty and you were wrong. I pointed out the error of your inference and argument.
DB, sometimes I get the impression that you assume that everyone has English as a mother tongue. That's not always the case.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: icabodcrane on April 23, 2013, 02:44:03 PM
But how was Eddie supposed to explain whether what he detected was the smell of a wholemeal loaf of bread, a croissant or a scone?
Hi Carana ! Eddie was working : kind of playing for him but a task with a beginning and an end and a reward whether he found the scent or not. Some handlers even use a special long trail as a signal for the dog that "the" task has started. So I don't doubt Eddie was smelling the odour he's been trained to alert to. He was smelling or thought he was smelling ? Who knows if dogs can be abused by their memories ?
Hi Anne.
From what I can gather, these dogs had an affectionate "home" life when they were not working.
I presume that there must be some kind of signal to tell them when they were in work mode - otherwise they would be alerting to any minor incident at "home" which would make "home" life somewhat complicated.
My issue is that Eddie doesn't just react to the odour of a dead person, but also to other decomposing substances which could be totally irrelevant to the work task.
Would (e.g.) a bloodied bandaid from the foot of an occupant from a week or more prior to this inspection, perhaps removed during cleaning, or perhaps not swept from under a bed, have generated this response, or not?
Did they move the beds to check if anything innocent was underneath? Did they turn over the mattresses to check?
ETA: Was a cleaning employee ever asked (who would have been responsible for the post-disappearance cleaning duties)?
If it is the case that Eddie was as unreliable and indiscriminate in his alerts as has been suggested ( alerting to all sorts of things other than cadaver scent ... then how can it be be that he didn't bark ( alert ) in the other 9 apartments he was trailed though
In order to answer that question we have to ask another ... what was unique to the McCann's apartment ?
... and the bolo punch answer is that a missing child was last seen there
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: AnneGuedes on April 23, 2013, 02:49:32 PM
You really must work on your English usage. Debunker, you know as any one what it means when the argumento ad hominem pops up !
That is not ad hominem.
You misused an English word and distorted what I was saying. You pretended that I had accused people of dishonesty and you were wrong. I pointed out the error of your inference and argument.
DB, sometimes I get the impression that you assume that everyone has English as a mother tongue. That's not always the case.
Thanks, Carana, but it has nothing to do with language knowledge, "dishonesty" has equal semantic fields in English, Portuguese and French. I'm glad if Debunker believes the professionals involved in the dogs operation are honest persons. I only wish he would state it clearly. Now I forgot to say that I don't believe Madeleine was carried in the Scenic. Contamination product ? He wasn't sent into the car... and we don't see Keela freezing in front of the car key. This strange and imo implausible scenario might have originated from those frozen new-born (quite a few) coupled with the idea a body must have a sepulchre.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: AnneGuedes on April 23, 2013, 02:52:55 PM
. then how can it be be that he didn't bark ( alert ) in the other 9 apartments he was trailed though
Not 9, Icabodcrane, only 4 (5B,5D,5H,4?).
It was 7 residences in total Anne
Apartments - Mccanns, Mccans second flat, Paynes, Oldfields, O'Briens Murat's villa and Mccanns villa
Thanks Redblossom ... and that's my stumbling block
These dogs are valued, and they are effective ... we all know that really
We are asked to believe, though, that on this occasion their alerts were errors. Scientific explanations are proffered and the fact that no conclusive forensic evidence was gathered is presented as definitive proof that the dogs were wrong
OK then, even though it is difficult to accept that the dogs were having an inexplicable 'off day' when they were making nothing but errors, I can accept the possibility that they were
What I can not get past, though, is the fact that all of these 'errors' were made where the McCanns were concerned ... and no errors made where the McCanns were not concerned
I have seen no rational or believable explanation put forward to explain that stark truth
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: AnneGuedes on April 23, 2013, 03:46:24 PM
Well, Icabodcrane, some will argue, according to the same logic, that Eddie could have passed by cadaver scent in one or another residence. Actually Martin Grime admits Eddie was capable of wrong negatives, I think he witnessed some. But he says never found Eddie making a wrong positive. Of course it doesn't mean that it never happened in case of immaterial residue.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: ferryman on April 23, 2013, 03:47:46 PM
In the full length garage film, the Scenic was in which checking position ?
Why does that matter. What maters is that Mr Grime knew which was the McCann's vehicle, called Eddie back nine times (compared with once OK r twice for other vehicles) and pressured Eddie to react, spending five times longer at that car before a reaction than with any other car.
Andthen all it showed was that there was blood in the vehicle- Gerry's blood was recovered from the key fob in the vehicle.
Which seems to imply Harrison, Grime and the PJ were dishonest (and fools as well since they filmed it). Are you a member of the police's police ?
Grime was heavily influenced by bias, not against the McCanns, but in favour of his either forthcoming or fledgling solo career, which paid dividends for him in the short run. I'm less certain about the long run.
D'Lane's conviction for child abuse will stick and deservedly so.
But his conviction for murder?
We'll see!
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 23, 2013, 03:48:47 PM
But how was Eddie supposed to explain whether what he detected was the smell of a wholemeal loaf of bread, a croissant or a scone?
Hi Carana ! Eddie was working : kind of playing for him but a task with a beginning and an end and a reward whether he found the scent or not. Some handlers even use a special long trail as a signal for the dog that "the" task has started. So I don't doubt Eddie was smelling the odour he's been trained to alert to. He was smelling or thought he was smelling ? Who knows if dogs can be abused by their memories ?
Aside from your opinion you have no reason to say that Eddie was smelling an odour. There is NO DOUBT that when properly tested, scent dogs of all kinds alert when there is no target substance present. A dog does not have the cognitive ability to "think he was smelling" something- that requires self-awareness and self-consciousness that animals of that order do not seem to possess. Dogs either alert or do not - they do not sit and ponder whether it is the right smell- it is a modified reflex, not a self-conscious complex intellectual considerationof the evidence.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 23, 2013, 03:51:56 PM
When "normal human failure" of a professional is observed by another professional who nevertheless doesn't react, is it also "normal human failure" ?
All humans (and dogs) are fallible.
Failings of procedure are apparent from the videos and narratives.
Debunker, I admit, I always have, that I was perplex as well when I watched the garage video. Don't scream ! Then I read the reports but found nothing weird in them. Then I read a lot of articles about dog training and the relationship woven between handler and dog (I never had a dog, but I had a horse and thus an idea about the relationship human being-domestic animal). Then I spoke with some handlers (not professional) who explained to me how the dog, when picking up the scent will turn in circles using the wind to try to find where the scent is located and how the dog must be supported since he risks exhaustion. Then I discovered the Scenic was the 4th car inspected and that the watched video was an extract. Well, unlike you, I decided to trust MH and MG, especially the first one because I found very impressive and serene the way he approached this case. Also I thought that had this video shown some "normal human failure" it would have been destroyed. Policemen aren't supposed to be saints.
How do you acount for the demonstrable FACTS that Mr Grime makes Eddie return repeatedly to what he knows is the McCann's car, counting bothtime spent before passing on to the next car, and forcing him to return nine times when he ran on to the next car?
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Carana on April 23, 2013, 03:53:36 PM
This strange and imo implausible scenario might have originated from those frozen new-born (quite a few) coupled with the idea a body must have a sepulchre.
What are you referring to, Anne?
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 23, 2013, 03:53:50 PM
But how was Eddie supposed to explain whether what he detected was the smell of a wholemeal loaf of bread, a croissant or a scone?
Hi Carana ! Eddie was working : kind of playing for him but a task with a beginning and an end and a reward whether he found the scent or not. Some handlers even use a special long trail as a signal for the dog that "the" task has started. So I don't doubt Eddie was smelling the odour he's been trained to alert to. He was smelling or thought he was smelling ? Who knows if dogs can be abused by their memories ?
Hi Anne.
From what I can gather, these dogs had an affectionate "home" life when they were not working.
I presume that there must be some kind of signal to tell them when they were in work mode - otherwise they would be alerting to any minor incident at "home" which would make "home" life somewhat complicated.
My issue is that Eddie doesn't just react to the odour of a dead person, but also to other decomposing substances which could be totally irrelevant to the work task.
Would (e.g.) a bloodied bandaid from the foot of an occupant from a week or more prior to this inspection, perhaps removed during cleaning, or perhaps not swept from under a bed, have generated this response, or not?
Did they move the beds to check if anything innocent was underneath? Did they turn over the mattresses to check?
ETA: Was a cleaning employee ever asked (who would have been responsible for the post-disappearance cleaning duties)?
Eddie alerts to dried blood from a currently living person. An alert from him alone NEVER indicates cadaver odor.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: ferryman on April 23, 2013, 03:54:42 PM
It's interesting to make a comparison of how much time was spent in all the other apartments and how much time was spent in the places Madeleine was known to have been -- as well as those places Madeleine was known not to have been but the McCanns were known to have been (if you follow the distinction) ...
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 23, 2013, 03:56:59 PM
You really must work on your English usage. Debunker, you know as any one what it means when the argumento ad hominem pops up !
That is not ad hominem.
You misused an English word and distorted what I was saying. You pretended that I had accused people of dishonesty and you were wrong. I pointed out the error of your inference and argument.
DB, sometimes I get the impression that you assume that everyone has English as a mother tongue. That's not always the case.
Whether someone is a native speaker or not, words must be used in the manner recognised by every one. I was accused of calling people dishonest when I had merely said they were mistaken. I am justified in pointing such errors of usage when they affect the argument.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Carana on April 23, 2013, 03:58:29 PM
It's interesting to make a comparison of how much time was spent in all the other apartments and how much time was spent in the places Madeleine was known to have been -- as well as those places Madeleine was known not to have been but the McCanns were known to have been (if you follow the distinction) ...
Well, yes, Ferryman. I was wondering about that as well.
In fact, I believe that I'd posted the relative inspection times a few days ago.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 23, 2013, 03:58:49 PM
If it is the case that Eddie was as unreliable and indiscriminate in his alerts as has been suggested ( alerting to all sorts of things other than cadaver scent ... then how can it be be that he didn't bark ( alert ) in the other 9 apartments he was trailed though
In order to answer that question we have to ask another ... what was unique to the McCann's apartment ?
... and the bolo punch answer is that a missing child was last seen there
Unconscious cuing and serial errors may account for this.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: icabodcrane on April 23, 2013, 03:59:12 PM
Eddie alerts to dried blood from a currently living person. An alert from him alone NEVER indicates cadaver odor.
Do you mean Keela ? an alert from Eddie alone would most certainly be suggestive of cadavour odour ( as with the alert he made to the first shelf in the McCann's wardrobe )
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 23, 2013, 04:01:45 PM
You really must work on your English usage. Debunker, you know as any one what it means when the argumento ad hominem pops up !
That is not ad hominem.
You misused an English word and distorted what I was saying. You pretended that I had accused people of dishonesty and you were wrong. I pointed out the error of your inference and argument.
DB, sometimes I get the impression that you assume that everyone has English as a mother tongue. That's not always the case.
Thanks, Carana, but it has nothing to do with language knowledge, "dishonesty" has equal semantic fields in English, Portuguese and French. I'm glad if Debunker believes the professionals involved in the dogs operation are honest persons. I only wish he would state it clearly. Now I forgot to say that I don't believe Madeleine was carried in the Scenic. Contamination product ? He wasn't sent into the car... and we don't see Keela freezing in front of the car key. This strange and imo implausible scenario might have originated from those frozen new-born (quite a few) coupled with the idea a body must have a sepulchre.
I believe they are basically honest in their replies. I also believe that Mr Grime chooses his words carefully to remain within the rules of evidence at the same time as avoiding justified questions about the abilities of hisdogs. He does not lie but goes to great lengths to avoid unfortunate truths.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 23, 2013, 04:03:33 PM
. then how can it be be that he didn't bark ( alert ) in the other 9 apartments he was trailed though
Not 9, Icabodcrane, only 4 (5B,5D,5H,4?).
It was 7 residences in total Anne
Apartments - Mccanns, Mccans second flat, Paynes, Oldfields, O'Briens Murat's villa and Mccanns villa
Thanks Redblossom ... and that's my stumbling block
These dogs are valued, and they are effective ... we all know that really
We are asked to believe, though, that on this occasion their alerts were errors. Scientific explanations are proffered and the fact that no conclusive forensic evidence was gathered is presented as definitive proof that the dogs were wrong
OK then, even though it is difficult to accept that the dogs were having an inexplicable 'off day' when they were making nothing but errors, I can accept the possibility that they were
What I can not get past, though, is the fact that all of these 'errors' were made where the McCanns were concerned ... and no errors made where the McCanns were not concerned
I have seen no rational or believable explanation put forward to explain that stark truth
Unconscious handler cuing. Rational and possible.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Carana on April 23, 2013, 04:05:13 PM
You really must work on your English usage. Debunker, you know as any one what it means when the argumento ad hominem pops up !
That is not ad hominem.
You misused an English word and distorted what I was saying. You pretended that I had accused people of dishonesty and you were wrong. I pointed out the error of your inference and argument.
DB, sometimes I get the impression that you assume that everyone has English as a mother tongue. That's not always the case.
Whether someone is a native speaker or not, words must be used in the manner recognised by every one. I was accused of calling people dishonest when I had merely said they were mistaken. I am justified in pointing such errors of usage when they affect the argument.
If English was good enough for Jesus...
I'm teasing you, but - seriously - some people are trying to express themselves in what may be 3rd or 4th languages. It's not always easy.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 23, 2013, 04:06:21 PM
Well, Icabodcrane, some will argue, according to the same logic, that Eddie could have passed by cadaver scent in one or another residence. Actually Martin Grime admits Eddie was capable of wrong negatives, I think he witnessed some. But he says never found Eddie making a wrong positive. Of course it doesn't mean that it never happened in case of immaterial residue.
Mr Grime does NOT say that Eddie had never made a false positive.
If you assert that, please provide a cite.
This belief is an unsupported myth.
Over to you.....
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 23, 2013, 04:11:13 PM
Do you mean Keela ? an alert from Eddie alone would most certainly be suggestive of cadavour odour ( as with the alert he made to the first shelf in the McCann's wardrobe )
NO NO NO.
ANn alert from Eddie tells you that EITHER blood (possibly from a currently living person) OR cadaver odor OR an error.
If Keela FAILS to alert in the same place as Eddie did, this narrows it down to either Cadaver odor OR an error.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Carana on April 23, 2013, 04:14:14 PM
Clear evidence, from the dog video and from the files, in two cases
- around the parents' bedroom wardrobe area - clothing
No evidence from either the dog video or the police files (at least as far as I have seen or read) that Keela the blood dog was sent into the following areas where Eddie the cadaver dog alerted
- verandah outside the parents' bedroom - flowerbed area outside the flat - the soft toy
And a single alert is likely to be in error 10-20% of the time.
So when Eddie alerted at the McCann's wardrobe ( where Keela did not ) we can say it was not blood, but cadaver scent he was alerting to
... and we can say there is an 80%/90% chance that his alert was accurate
Is that correct ?
I'm not into statistics, but why do people assume that he couldn't be alerting to the scent of other, irrelevant substances, perhaps with no physical trace, within the parameters of his training?
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Redblossom on April 23, 2013, 04:14:52 PM
Thanks Redblossom ... and that's my stumbling block
These dogs are valued, and they are effective ... we all know that really
We are asked to believe, though, that on this occasion their alerts were errors. Scientific explanations are proffered and the fact that no conclusive forensic evidence was gathered is presented as definitive proof that the dogs were wrong
OK then, even though it is difficult to accept that the dogs were having an inexplicable 'off day' when they were making nothing but errors, I can accept the possibility that they were
What I can not get past, though, is the fact that all of these 'errors' were made where the McCanns were concerned ... and no errors made where the McCanns were not concerned
I have seen no rational or believable explanation put forward to explain that stark truth
It does appear to be a bit of a rubix cube conundrum, doesn't it.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 23, 2013, 04:17:42 PM
Thanks Redblossom ... and that's my stumbling block
These dogs are valued, and they are effective ... we all know that really
We are asked to believe, though, that on this occasion their alerts were errors. Scientific explanations are proffered and the fact that no conclusive forensic evidence was gathered is presented as definitive proof that the dogs were wrong 9
OK then, even though it is difficult to accept that the dogs were having an inexplicable 'off day' when they were making nothing but errors, I can accept the possibility that they were
What I can not get past, though, is the fact that all of these 'errors' were made where the McCanns were concerned ... and no errors made where the McCanns were not concerned
I have seen no rational or believable explanation put forward to explain that stark truth
It does appear to be a bit of a rubix cube conundrum, doesn't it.
Only ifyou do not understand how truth is based on forensic or scientific methods.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Carana on April 23, 2013, 04:22:40 PM
00.0 Getting ready. I was reluctant to let the dog inside as I did not feel that it would do much good. In truth, I was a little sceptical – I had not felt a favourable impression from the handler (Martin Grimes) at our initial meeting and I was dubious, although my opinion of his qualities and integrity was to markedly change as events unfolded. I began to realise as I worked closely with him over a period of months that what I originally took as arrogance was simply supreme confidence in the ability of his dogs in the face of jealous, empire protecting rivals who were not as professionally capable. Throughout the investigation, we subjected Martin and his dogs to many ‘verifying’ tests, from burying swabs in sand (which he always found no matter how large an area), to minute blood stains. The dogs never failed.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Redblossom on April 23, 2013, 04:29:53 PM
It's interesting to make a comparison of how much time was spent in all the other apartments and how much time was spent in the places Madeleine was known to have been -- as well as those places Madeleine was known not to have been but the McCanns were known to have been (if you follow the distinction) ...
It's not as simple as that. If the dog showed interest and his behaviour changed,more time would be spent to find the source of the interest. This did not happen in the other apartments, nor the Mccanns villa for that matter. Mr Grime's video commentary says where there was interest and where there wasn't.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Redblossom on April 23, 2013, 04:31:27 PM
Thanks Redblossom ... and that's my stumbling block
These dogs are valued, and they are effective ... we all know that really
We are asked to believe, though, that on this occasion their alerts were errors. Scientific explanations are proffered and the fact that no conclusive forensic evidence was gathered is presented as definitive proof that the dogs were wrong 9
OK then, even though it is difficult to accept that the dogs were having an inexplicable 'off day' when they were making nothing but errors, I can accept the possibility that they were
What I can not get past, though, is the fact that all of these 'errors' were made where the McCanns were concerned ... and no errors made where the McCanns were not concerned
I have seen no rational or believable explanation put forward to explain that stark truth
It does appear to be a bit of a rubix cube conundrum, doesn't it.
Only ifyou do not understand how truth is based on forensic or scientific methods.
Bit of a sweeping statement there. Evidence and truth are not the same thing.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: AnneGuedes on April 23, 2013, 04:32:12 PM
How do you acount for the demonstrable FACTS that Mr Grime makes Eddie return repeatedly to what he knows is the McCann's car, counting bothtime spent before passing on to the next car, and forcing him to return nine times when he ran on to the next car?
MG, who, as a good handler, knew Eddie, understood the dog had picked up something. He supported him. It's your right to be sceptic, but it is unfounded to suggest some kind of a trick.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: icabodcrane on April 23, 2013, 04:40:51 PM
I don't think the 'unconcious handler cueing' is convincing or rational ... not in this case
I'll give my reasons
It was of no benefit to Mr Grime to lead his dogs into giving false alerts ... their accuracy is what matters to him, Whether they accurately alert, or accurately non-alert is of equal value to any investigation ( the cueing accusation implies that his dogs are only of value when they do alert, and that is simply not the case )
Getting on to specifics though
The first time Eddie, the cadavour dog is introduced to the investigation is when he is brought to the McCann's apartment. Immediately, still at the front door, Mr Grime notes a change in Eddie's demeanor ... he is already in a state of excitement ( with no cue from his handler )
Eddie enters the apartment first ... he is on a free search
He alerts in seperate locations. There can be no question of Mr Grime 'cueing' Eddie at this point because he ( Mr Grime ) had no idea which locations were significant
When Keela, the blood dog is brought in, Mr Grime already knows which locations are significant ( the shelf in the wardrobe and the area behind the sofa ) and he specifically directs Keela to those locations ... cueing ? ... or simply taking the logical and necessary steps to validate the alerts Eddie had already made ?
In any event, Mr Grime pays great attention to the wardrobe where Eddie had already alerted. He directs Keela to it, and has her jump up onto the first shelf ... he even lifts her onto the second shelf
Now that might be interpretated as 'cueing' by some, but here's the thing ... despite all that handler direction, the dog did not alert
When it came to the vehicles, it is quite logical that the McCann's car was the focus of the most thorough investigation ... both dogs had already alerted in the McCann's apartment afterall
Had the dogs alerted in Mr Murat's house, for instance, I have no doubt that his car would have been the one the dogs were repeatedly brought back to ( and quite rightly )
To present the explanation that the dogs alerted as they did, only because their handler 'cued' them to, is entirely unsupportable and lacks reason
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: AnneGuedes on April 23, 2013, 04:44:04 PM
This strange and imo implausible scenario might have originated from those frozen new-born (quite a few) coupled with the idea a body must have a sepulchre.
What are you referring to, Anne?
Carana, there have been, in France, for about 10 years, quite a few cases of mothers freezing their new born. The most "famous" is Veronique Courjault, she did it twice and confessed that, before, she had burnt a new born. Middle class, cultured lady, with a loving husband (engineer), two sons, many friends... Her sickness is difficult to understand. Loving being pregnant but fearing having to take care of another child ? Those frozen babies were found by her husband in Saigon as she had gone back to France for the kids' holidays. He called the police. They did some tests and said those were his babies. He and everybody in France thought the Koreans were mad...
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: ferryman on April 23, 2013, 04:45:23 PM
Immediately, still at the front door, Mr Grime notes a change in Eddie's demeanor ... he is already in a state of excitement ( with no cue from his handler )
No Eddie sits patiently and waits for Grime to take off his lead ...
He doesn't show any particular excitement or interest at all ...
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Carana on April 23, 2013, 04:46:23 PM
00.0 Getting ready. I was reluctant to let the dog inside as I did not feel that it would do much good. In truth, I was a little sceptical – I had not felt a favourable impression from the handler (Martin Grimes) at our initial meeting and I was dubious, although my opinion of his qualities and integrity was to markedly change as events unfolded. I began to realise as I worked closely with him over a period of months that what I originally took as arrogance was simply supreme confidence in the ability of his dogs in the face of jealous, empire protecting rivals who were not as professionally capable. Throughout the investigation, we subjected Martin and his dogs to many ‘verifying’ tests, from burying swabs in sand (which he always found no matter how large an area), to minute blood stains. The dogs never failed.
Eddie alerted to items of interest to the investigation, but he also alerted to items that were irrelevant.
From MG's Jersey report:
VT / 9 Trench and gun emplacement containing small personnel shelter. Forensic examination revealed recently deposited tissues that appeared to have been used to ‘clean up following sexual intercourse’. It would appear that the shelter had been used as a venue for courting couples. This alert is within the trained parameters of the dog’s repertoire and is a satisfactory explanation of the alert.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Redblossom on April 23, 2013, 04:46:38 PM
Some excellent points there Icabodcrane.
@Carana, do you have a link to Martin Grime's Jersey report? TIA
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: ferryman on April 23, 2013, 04:49:45 PM
Beyond doubt, it is appalling bad practice for any dog attending a crime scene to pick things in up in its mouth.
Also to trample all over stuff the dog is tasked to inspect.
And quite what Grime was playing at putting Eddie in a position where he had no trained response to indicate anything specific, I'm not sure ...
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Carana on April 23, 2013, 04:57:34 PM
This strange and imo implausible scenario might have originated from those frozen new-born (quite a few) coupled with the idea a body must have a sepulchre.
What are you referring to, Anne?
Carana, there have been, in France, for about 10 years, quite a few cases of mothers freezing their new born. The most "famous" is Veronique Courjault, she did it twice and confessed that, before, she had burnt a new born. Middle class, cultured lady, with a loving husband (engineer), two sons, many friends... Her sickness is difficult to understand. Loving being pregnant but fearing having to take care of another child ? Those frozen babies were found by her husband in Saigon as she had gone back to France for the kids' holidays. He called the police. They did some tests and said those were his babies. He and everybody in France thought the Koreans were mad...
Did you mean Seoul, as opposed to Saigon?. Yes, I'm aware of the case. Very sad.
I'm not sure of the relevance to a family taking their children on holiday though.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Redblossom on April 23, 2013, 04:58:29 PM
the alert he made to the first shelf in the McCann's wardrobe )
Icabodcrane, he made the alert on the floor, in the corner between the wardrobe and the wall. MG commented it wasn't necessary a corpse had been there, molecules chased by draughts could have been trapped in that corner.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Carana on April 23, 2013, 05:01:27 PM
I believe they are basically honest in their replies. I also believe that Mr Grime chooses his words carefully to remain within the rules of evidence at the same time as avoiding justified questions about the abilities of hisdogs. He does not lie but goes to great lengths to avoid unfortunate truths.
Honest "n their replies", then what about their acts ? And their intentions ? Who wouldn't try to "avoid unfortunate truths" ? ;)
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: ferryman on April 23, 2013, 05:05:41 PM
Would you like a link to the independent inquiry as well?
Why, is that site not independent? Yes please.
Even if true, it doesn't really change much does it? Either the Mccanns were extremely unlucky and the dog alerted to all sorts of innocent materials only in and outside their flat from where Madeleine disappeared, and nowhere else, what are the odds of that? or there is more to it.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 23, 2013, 05:09:50 PM
00.0 Getting ready. I was reluctant to let the dog inside as I did not feel that it would do much good. In truth, I was a little sceptical – I had not felt a favourable impression from the handler (Martin Grimes) at our initial meeting and I was dubious, although my opinion of his qualities and integrity was to markedly change as events unfolded. I began to realise as I worked closely with him over a period of months that what I originally took as arrogance was simply supreme confidence in the ability of his dogs in the face of jealous, empire protecting rivals who were not as professionally capable. Throughout the investigation, we subjected Martin and his dogs to many ‘verifying’ tests, from burying swabs in sand (which he always found no matter how large an area), to minute blood stains. The dogs never failed.
Eddie alerts to dried blood ( whether from a living or dead person) AND/OR cadaver odor. Source: Mr Grime in the PJ files.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 23, 2013, 05:12:18 PM
Thanks Redblossom ... and that's my stumbling block
These dogs are valued, and they are effective ... we all know that really
We are asked to believe, though, that on this occasion their alerts were errors. Scientific explanations are proffered and the fact that no conclusive forensic evidence was gathered is presented as definitive proof that the dogs were wrong 9
OK then, even though it is difficult to accept that the dogs were having an inexplicable 'off day' when they were making nothing but errors, I can accept the possibility that they were
What I can not get past, though, is the fact that all of these 'errors' were made where the McCanns were concerned ... and no errors made where the McCanns were not concerned
I have seen no rational or believable explanation put forward to explain that stark truth
It does appear to be a bit of a rubix cube conundrum, doesn't it.
Only ifyou do not understand how truth is based on forensic or scientific methods.
Bit of a sweeping statement there. Evidence and truth are not the same thing.
What is "sweeping" about my statement:
"Only ifyou do not understand how truth is based on forensic or scientific methods."
See my post on the scientific method.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Lace on April 23, 2013, 05:12:58 PM
Why didn't Eddie alert to CC when he took the toy out of what looked to be a bin?
Eddie later barked alerting to CC in the cupboard in the kitchen.
If there was cadaver scent on CC why didn't Eddie alert the first time? He had the toy in his mouth close to his nose.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: ferryman on April 23, 2013, 05:13:21 PM
You really must work on your English usage. Debunker, you know as any one what it means when the argumento ad hominem pops up !
That is not ad hominem.
You misused an English word and distorted what I was saying. You pretended that I had accused people of dishonesty and you were wrong. I pointed out the error of your inference and argument.
DB, sometimes I get the impression that you assume that everyone has English as a mother tongue. That's not always the case.
Thanks, Carana, but it has nothing to do with language knowledge, "dishonesty" has equal semantic fields in English, Portuguese and French. I'm glad if Debunker believes the professionals involved in the dogs operation are honest persons. I only wish he would state it clearly. Now I forgot to say that I don't believe Madeleine was carried in the Scenic. Contamination product ? He wasn't sent into the car... and we don't see Keela freezing in front of the car key. This strange and imo implausible scenario might have originated from those frozen new-born (quite a few) coupled with the idea a body must have a sepulchre.
I believe they are basically honest in their replies. I also believe that Mr Grime chooses his words carefully to remain within the rules of evidence at the same time as avoiding justified questions about the abilities of hisdogs. He does not lie but goes to great lengths to avoid unfortunate truths.
Debunker He [Grime] does not lie but goes to great lengths to avoid unfortunate truths.
There is an exception, or at the very least an anomaly.
Grime clearly states in his rogatory interview that he instructed cuddle-cat be sent for forensic analysis.
At most charitable, his instruction was ignored.
And I don't think Keela reacted to the toy.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Redblossom on April 23, 2013, 05:14:08 PM
How do you acount for the demonstrable FACTS that Mr Grime makes Eddie return repeatedly to what he knows is the McCann's car, counting bothtime spent before passing on to the next car, and forcing him to return nine times when he ran on to the next car?
MG, who, as a good handler, knew Eddie, understood the dog had picked up something. He supported him. It's your right to be sceptic, but it is unfounded to suggest some kind of a trick.
I am not suggesting any trick. I am merely commenting on the obvious difference in the video in time spent on, and recalls to, the McCann's car.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 23, 2013, 05:16:27 PM
I don't think the 'unconcious handler cueing' is convincing or rational ... not in this case
I'll give my reasons
It was of no benefit to Mr Grime to lead his dogs into giving false alerts ... their accuracy is what matters to him, Whether they accurately alert, or accurately non-alert is of equal value to any investigation ( the cueing accusation implies that his dogs are only of value when they do alert, and that is simply not the case )
Getting on to specifics though
The first time Eddie, the cadavour dog is introduced to the investigation is when he is brought to the McCann's apartment. Immediately, still at the front door, Mr Grime notes a change in Eddie's demeanor ... he is already in a state of excitement ( with no cue from his handler )
Eddie enters the apartment first ... he is on a free search
He alerts in seperate locations. There can be no question of Mr Grime 'cueing' Eddie at this point because he ( Mr Grime ) had no idea which locations were significant
When Keela, the blood dog is brought in, Mr Grime already knows which locations are significant ( the shelf in the wardrobe and the area behind the sofa ) and he specifically directs Keela to those locations ... cueing ? ... or simply taking the logical and necessary steps to validate the alerts Eddie had already made ?
In any event, Mr Grime pays great attention to the wardrobe where Eddie had already alerted. He directs Keela to it, and has her jump up onto the first shelf ... he even lifts her onto the second shelf
Now that might be interpretated as 'cueing' by some, but here's the thing ... despite all that handler direction, the dog did not alert
When it came to the vehicles, it is quite logical that the McCann's car was the focus of the most thorough investigation ... both dogs had already alerted in the McCann's apartment afterall
Had the dogs alerted in Mr Murat's house, for instance, I have no doubt that his car would have been the one the dogs were repeatedly brought back to ( and quite rightly )
To present the explanation that the dogs alerted as they did, only because their handler 'cued' them to, is entirely unsupportable and lacks reason
You obviously do not understand the meaning of UNCONSCIOUS cuing.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: ferryman on April 23, 2013, 05:17:39 PM
Also, I think Grime l... outright about Eddie's alleged training in America.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Redblossom on April 23, 2013, 05:18:55 PM
Only ifyou do not understand how truth is based on forensic or scientific methods.
*****
DB
What is sweeping is saying that truth is only truth if proven scientifically or forensically. There are things forensics and science cannot prove but which are true. Ie the lingering scent of the hundredsof molecules that make up cadaver odour. if such an instrument exists to do this I have never heard about it. Truth of anything as provable on a court of law is different.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 23, 2013, 05:19:08 PM
It's interesting to make a comparison of how much time was spent in all the other apartments and how much time was spent in the places Madeleine was known to have been -- as well as those places Madeleine was known not to have been but the McCanns were known to have been (if you follow the distinction) ...
It's not as simple as that. If the dog showed interest and his behaviour changed,more time would be spent to find the source of the interest. This did not happen in the other apartments, nor the Mccanns villa for that matter. Mr Grime's video commentary says where there was interest and where there wasn't.
You are assuming that with no proof.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: AnneGuedes on April 23, 2013, 05:19:24 PM
Mr Grime does NOT say that Eddie had never made a false positive.
If you assert that, please provide a cite.
This belief is an unsupported myth.
Over to you.....
Think a bit. How can MG affirm that Eddie never made a false positive ? Obviously only in the cases where forensic material was found at the alert point. How can he affirm that it had happened Eddie giving a false negative ? Obviously only in the cases where forensic material was found at the non alert point. In the case of an alert without forensic material, obviously it's impossible to affirm whether Eddie was right or false. That's what MG kept saying.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Carana on April 23, 2013, 05:22:02 PM
Would you like a link to the independent inquiry as well?
Why, is that site not independent? Yes please.
Even if true, it doesn't really change much does it? Either the Mccanns were extremely unlucky and the dog alerted to all sorts of innocent materials only in and outside their flat from where Madeleine disappeared, and nowhere else, what are the odds of that? or there is more to it.
It took me a while to find the link.
I believe that this is the right one: http://www.gov.je/Government/Pages/StatesReports.aspx?ReportID=561
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Redblossom on April 23, 2013, 05:22:33 PM
It's interesting to make a comparison of how much time was spent in all the other apartments and how much time was spent in the places Madeleine was known to have been -- as well as those places Madeleine was known not to have been but the McCanns were known to have been (if you follow the distinction) ...
It's not as simple as that. If the dog showed interest and his behaviour changed,more time would be spent to find the source of the interest. This did not happen in the other apartments, nor the Mccanns villa for that matter. Mr Grime's video commentary says where there was interest and where there wasn't.
You are assuming that with no proof.
You obviously have not watched the whole dog video then, I assume nothing.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Lace on April 23, 2013, 05:23:06 PM
I noticed a difference in time spent on the other apartments too.
In 5a Eddie was made to smell almost every inch of the floor by the wardrobe, called back to smell the furniture etc.
In the other apartments it seemed to me as if it was a quick search.
Eddie was very interested in smelling behind I believe a cupboard in one of the other apartments? Although the furniture was pulled out I didn't see Mr. Grime spending the length of time going over the floor as he had in 5a.
The same in the bedroom of the other apartments. Eddie was smelling something under the bed in one of them and Mr. Grime calls him away actually telling him 'no'. Mr. Grime didn't pull the bed out and have Eddie smell all over the floor of the bedroom.
We must remember too that 5a had been rented out to I think three other families, before Eddie and Keela were called in.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Redblossom on April 23, 2013, 05:24:14 PM
Thanks Carana, will have a read, my question still stands, catch you later
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: ferryman on April 23, 2013, 05:24:39 PM
Ah, yes.
The definitive proof (in that report somewhere) that Eddie alerted to a coconut shell ...
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 23, 2013, 05:26:02 PM
I believe they are basically honest in their replies. I also believe that Mr Grime chooses his words carefully to remain within the rules of evidence at the same time as avoiding justified questions about the abilities of hisdogs. He does not lie but goes to great lengths to avoid unfortunate truths.
Honest "n their replies", then what about their acts ? And their intentions ? Who wouldn't try to "avoid unfortunate truths" ? ;)
Well, for instance, someone who wanted to make the dogs seem more accurate than they are. The unfortunate truth is that dog alerts have quite a high error rate; Mr Grime repeatedly chooses forms of words that mask this.
For instance, many people here believe that he said that Eddie had never falsely alerted in over 200 cases. He did not say that.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 23, 2013, 05:27:12 PM
Would you like a link to the independent inquiry as well?
Why, is that site not independent? Yes please.
Even if true, it doesn't really change much does it? Either the Mccanns were extremely unlucky and the dog alerted to all sorts of innocent materials only in and outside their flat from where Madeleine disappeared, and nowhere else, what are the odds of that? or there is more to it.
The ods are quite high that such errors would occur.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 23, 2013, 05:29:29 PM
Only ifyou do not understand how truth is based on forensic or scientific methods.
*****
DB
What is sweeping is saying that truth is only truth if proven scientifically or forensically. There are things forensics and science cannot prove but which are true. Ie the lingering scent of the hundredsof molecules that make up cadaver odour. if such an instrument exists to do this I have never heard about it. Truth of anything as provable on a court of law is different.
Such thoughts are not knowledge, but are unsupported belief.
Knowledge is defined as true belief supported by evidence. You have produced no evidence, merely stated a belief without any supporting evidence.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: ferryman on April 23, 2013, 05:34:56 PM
Page 319 of the report:
My computer is not scrolling well, so I will add the rest in an edit:
A States of Jersey Police press release announced that ‘forensic archaeologists searched an area of the cellar rooms three and four and have discovered some more bone fragments and two 'milk teeth' from a child or children… the teeth could have come from the same child although further tests will be necessary to try and ascertain if that is the case, and how the teeth might have come to be there’. 29 April 2008 Sean POWER asked Wendy KINNARD in The States if the remains found were of a child - she replied stating ‘the statement made about the fragment of skull on 23rd February 2008 was accurate. It was and continues to be the partial remains of a child. The police have always maintained that they did not know when, where or how the person died. The fact that it was not proved possible to date the fragment of skull does not change the fact of what it was, nor does it remove the possibility that he or she died of foul play... it will remain premature to judge the con
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 23, 2013, 05:35:19 PM
Mr Grime does NOT say that Eddie had never made a false positive.
If you assert that, please provide a cite.
This belief is an unsupported myth.
Over to you.....
Think a bit. How can MG affirm that Eddie never made a false positive ? Obviously only in the cases where forensic material was found at the alert point. How can he affirm that it had happened Eddie giving a false negative ? Obviously only in the cases where forensic material was found at the non alert point. In the case of an alert without forensic material, obviously it's impossible to affirm whether Eddie was right or false. That's what MG kept saying.
Exactly. Where no supporting evidence is found it is either a false alert or an alert without physical trace- all we can say is that no supporting evidence is produced by the alert because it could be a simple error on the part of the dog and handler.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 23, 2013, 05:37:06 PM
It's interesting to make a comparison of how much time was spent in all the other apartments and how much time was spent in the places Madeleine was known to have been -- as well as those places Madeleine was known not to have been but the McCanns were known to have been (if you follow the distinction) ...
It's not as simple as that. If the dog showed interest and his behaviour changed,more time would be spent to find the source of the interest. This did not happen in the other apartments, nor the Mccanns villa for that matter. Mr Grime's video commentary says where there was interest and where there wasn't.
You are assuming that with no proof.
You obviously have not watched the whole dog video then, I assume nothing.
You are assuming plenty. I am assuming nothing.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: ferryman on April 23, 2013, 05:46:26 PM
A little earlier than that, in fact. Page 310:
0910hrs – Item found by anthropologist X and identified on scene as being part of a child’s skull. This item is then exhibited as JAR/6. 0930hrs – Exhibit JAR/6 is presented to the Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog which gave an indication suggestive of human remains.
The "remains" turned out to be a coconut shell ...
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Eleanor on April 23, 2013, 05:46:55 PM
I noticed a difference in time spent on the other apartments too.
In 5a Eddie was made to smell almost every inch of the floor by the wardrobe, called back to smell the furniture etc.
In the other apartments it seemed to me as if it was a quick search.
Eddie was very interested in smelling behind I believe a cupboard in one of the other apartments? Although the furniture was pulled out I didn't see Mr. Grime spending the length of time going over the floor as he had in 5a.
The same in the bedroom of the other apartments. Eddie was smelling something under the bed in one of them and Mr. Grime calls him away actually telling him 'no'. Mr. Grime didn't pull the bed out and have Eddie smell all over the floor of the bedroom.
We must remember too that 5a had been rented out to I think three other families, before Eddie and Keela were called in.
This is true, and better said than I could. Mr. Grime did most definitely spend much more time with the dogs on all things McCann.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: AnneGuedes on April 23, 2013, 05:49:35 PM
This strange and imo implausible scenario might have originated from those frozen new-born (quite a few) coupled with the idea a body must have a sepulchre.
What are you referring to, Anne?
Carana, there have been, in France, for about 10 years, quite a few cases of mothers freezing their new born. The most "famous" is Veronique Courjault, she did it twice and confessed that, before, she had burnt a new born. Middle class, cultured lady, with a loving husband (engineer), two sons, many friends... Her sickness is difficult to understand. Loving being pregnant but fearing having to take care of another child ? Those frozen babies were found by her husband in Saigon as she had gone back to France for the kids' holidays. He called the police. They did some tests and said those were his babies. He and everybody in France thought the Koreans were mad...
Did you mean Seoul, as opposed to Saigon?. Yes, I'm aware of the case. Very sad.
I'm not sure of the relevance to a family taking their children on holiday though.
Seoul of course, yes, sorry ! Freezing is just a way to get transitorily rid of a problem.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: icabodcrane on April 23, 2013, 05:49:50 PM
It's interesting to make a comparison of how much time was spent in all the other apartments and how much time was spent in the places Madeleine was known to have been -- as well as those places Madeleine was known not to have been but the McCanns were known to have been (if you follow the distinction) ...
It's not as simple as that. If the dog showed interest and his behaviour changed,more time would be spent to find the source of the interest. This did not happen in the other apartments, nor the Mccanns villa for that matter. Mr Grime's video commentary says where there was interest and where there wasn't.
You are assuming that with no proof.
You obviously have not watched the whole dog video then, I assume nothing.
You are assuming plenty. I am assuming nothing.
In that case, you will agree that there is a possibility that the cadavor dog was alerting to the scent of the missing child's dead body
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 23, 2013, 05:56:33 PM
It's interesting to make a comparison of how much time was spent in all the other apartments and how much time was spent in the places Madeleine was known to have been -- as well as those places Madeleine was known not to have been but the McCanns were known to have been (if you follow the distinction) ...
It's not as simple as that. If the dog showed interest and his behaviour changed,more time would be spent to find the source of the interest. This did not happen in the other apartments, nor the Mccanns villa for that matter. Mr Grime's video commentary says where there was interest and where there wasn't.
You are assuming that with no proof.
You obviously have not watched the whole dog video then, I assume nothing.
You are assuming plenty. I am assuming nothing.
In that case, you will agree that there is a possibility that the cadavor dog was alerting to the scent of the missing child's dead body
As long as you agree that equally he could be alerting to a non-cadaver source scent, or blood, or simply making an error. There is no evidence to decide between all those possibilities.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: AnneGuedes on April 23, 2013, 05:57:22 PM
It's interesting to make a comparison of how much time was spent in all the other apartments and how much time was spent in the places Madeleine was known to have been -- as well as those places Madeleine was known not to have been but the McCanns were known to have been (if you follow the distinction) ...
It's not as simple as that. If the dog showed interest and his behaviour changed,more time would be spent to find the source of the interest. This did not happen in the other apartments, nor the Mccanns villa for that matter. Mr Grime's video commentary says where there was interest and where there wasn't.
You are assuming that with no proof.
You obviously have not watched the whole dog video then, I assume nothing.
You are assuming plenty. I am assuming nothing.
In that case, you will agree that there is a possibility that the cadavor dog was alerting to the scent of the missing child's dead body
As long as you agree that equally he could be alerting to a non-cadaver source scent, or blood, or simply making an error. There is no evidence to decide between all those possibilities.
Without qualifying your answer, you accept that there is a possibility that the cadaver dog was alerting to the scent of Madeleine McCann's dead body
It is a possibility, is it not ?
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: AnneGuedes on April 23, 2013, 06:09:29 PM
Mr Grime does NOT say that Eddie had never made a false positive.
If you assert that, please provide a cite.
This belief is an unsupported myth.
Over to you.....
Think a bit. How can MG affirm that Eddie never made a false positive ? Obviously only in the cases where forensic material was found at the alert point. How can he affirm that it had happened Eddie giving a false negative ? Obviously only in the cases where forensic material was found at the non alert point. In the case of an alert without forensic material, obviously it's impossible to affirm whether Eddie was right or false. That's what MG kept saying.
Exactly. Where no supporting evidence is found it is either a false alert or an alert without physical trace- all we can say is that no supporting evidence is produced by the alert because it could be a simple error on the part of the dog and handler.
In the case of a dog who never made a false positive in the conditions mentioned above, one at least should certainly wonder when he alerts and nothing is found, considering moreover that post-mortem molecules are extremely volatile.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 23, 2013, 06:11:48 PM
Mr Grime does NOT say that Eddie had never made a false positive.
If you assert that, please provide a cite.
This belief is an unsupported myth.
Over to you.....
Think a bit. How can MG affirm that Eddie never made a false positive ? Obviously only in the cases where forensic material was found at the alert point. How can he affirm that it had happened Eddie giving a false negative ? Obviously only in the cases where forensic material was found at the non alert point. In the case of an alert without forensic material, obviously it's impossible to affirm whether Eddie was right or false. That's what MG kept saying.
Exactly. Where no supporting evidence is found it is either a false alert or an alert without physical trace- all we can say is that no supporting evidence is produced by the alert because it could be a simple error on the part of the dog and handler.
In the case of a dog who never made a false positive in the conditions mentioned above, one at least should certainly wonder when he alerts and nothing is found, considering moreover that post-mortem molecules are extremely volatile.
What do you mean?
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Redblossom on April 23, 2013, 06:18:29 PM
I noticed a difference in time spent on the other apartments too.
In 5a Eddie was made to smell almost every inch of the floor by the wardrobe, called back to smell the furniture etc.
In the other apartments it seemed to me as if it was a quick search.
Eddie was very interested in smelling behind I believe a cupboard in one of the other apartments? Although the furniture was pulled out I didn't see Mr. Grime spending the length of time going over the floor as he had in 5a.
The same in the bedroom of the other apartments. Eddie was smelling something under the bed in one of them and Mr. Grime calls him away actually telling him 'no'. Mr. Grime didn't pull the bed out and have Eddie smell all over the floor of the bedroom.
We must remember too that 5a had been rented out to I think three other families, before Eddie and Keela were called in.
This is true, and better said than I could. Mr. Grime did most definitely spend much more time with the dogs on all things McCann.
This is true, but why ? Because he knew about a subliminal doubt concerning the McCanns and had been asked to be very careful and leave no room to chance ? Or because he knew his dog had found something or nothing minutes after the door was open ?
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Redblossom on April 23, 2013, 06:20:55 PM
Would you like a link to the independent inquiry as well?
Why, is that site not independent? Yes please.
Even if true, it doesn't really change much does it? Either the Mccanns were extremely unlucky and the dog alerted to all sorts of innocent materials only in and outside their flat from where Madeleine disappeared, and nowhere else, what are the odds of that? or there is more to it.
The ods are quite high that such errors would occur.
Really? The odds are that in a search of 17 places, the dogs would make errors in the one place from where a child went missing but not in the other 16?
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Redblossom on April 23, 2013, 06:22:06 PM
I noticed a difference in time spent on the other apartments too.
In 5a Eddie was made to smell almost every inch of the floor by the wardrobe, called back to smell the furniture etc.
In the other apartments it seemed to me as if it was a quick search.
Eddie was very interested in smelling behind I believe a cupboard in one of the other apartments? Although the furniture was pulled out I didn't see Mr. Grime spending the length of time going over the floor as he had in 5a.
The same in the bedroom of the other apartments. Eddie was smelling something under the bed in one of them and Mr. Grime calls him away actually telling him 'no'. Mr. Grime didn't pull the bed out and have Eddie smell all over the floor of the bedroom.
We must remember too that 5a had been rented out to I think three other families, before Eddie and Keela were called in.
So were the other apartments
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Redblossom on April 23, 2013, 06:25:18 PM
Eddie alerts to dried blood ( whether from a living or dead person) AND/OR cadaver odor. Source: Mr Grime in the PJ files.
So you are saying that the sand containing the scent of a hundred year old cadaver was found by Eddie because he was sniffing blood? >@@(*&)
NO
Dogs make simple errors at least 1 alert in 10.
Ok, so you are asking me to believe that Mr Grime hid a bottle of corpse contaminated sand in the rocks on the beach while he kept his dog in its cage a far distance away and when the dog found that scent after travesing a wide area of that beach it could have been an error? That he alerted to the cadaver scent hidden there? I thinkyou are pushing it, don't you? @)(++(*
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: AnneGuedes on April 23, 2013, 06:26:24 PM
Mr Grime does NOT say that Eddie had never made a false positive.
If you assert that, please provide a cite.
This belief is an unsupported myth.
Over to you.....
Think a bit. How can MG affirm that Eddie never made a false positive ? Obviously only in the cases where forensic material was found at the alert point. How can he affirm that it had happened Eddie giving a false negative ? Obviously only in the cases where forensic material was found at the non alert point. In the case of an alert without forensic material, obviously it's impossible to affirm whether Eddie was right or false. That's what MG kept saying.
Exactly. Where no supporting evidence is found it is either a false alert or an alert without physical trace- all we can say is that no supporting evidence is produced by the alert because it could be a simple error on the part of the dog and handler.
In the case of a dog who never made a false positive in the conditions mentioned above, one at least should certainly wonder when he alerts and nothing is found, considering moreover that post-mortem molecules are extremely volatile.
What do you mean?
You wouldn't ask if you had smelt those molecules.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Redblossom on April 23, 2013, 06:28:55 PM
Only ifyou do not understand how truth is based on forensic or scientific methods.
*****
DB
What is sweeping is saying that truth is only truth if proven scientifically or forensically. There are things forensics and science cannot prove but which are true. Ie the lingering scent of the hundredsof molecules that make up cadaver odour. if such an instrument exists to do this I have never heard about it. Truth of anything as provable on a court of law is different.
Such thoughts are not knowledge, but are unsupported belief.
Knowledge is defined as true belief supported by evidence. You have produced no evidence, merely stated a belief without any supporting evidence.
Ok so the goalposts are now moved to include *knowledge*
Not doing a thesis on philosophy are you?
Whatever you say you cannot square the circle here. This issue will never go away until it has been satisfactorily explained, and this far, that has not happened otherwise people wouldnt labour any point at all about it.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 23, 2013, 06:29:05 PM
I noticed a difference in time spent on the other apartments too.
In 5a Eddie was made to smell almost every inch of the floor by the wardrobe, called back to smell the furniture etc.
In the other apartments it seemed to me as if it was a quick search.
Eddie was very interested in smelling behind I believe a cupboard in one of the other apartments? Although the furniture was pulled out I didn't see Mr. Grime spending the length of time going over the floor as he had in 5a.
The same in the bedroom of the other apartments. Eddie was smelling something under the bed in one of them and Mr. Grime calls him away actually telling him 'no'. Mr. Grime didn't pull the bed out and have Eddie smell all over the floor of the bedroom.
We must remember too that 5a had been rented out to I think three other families, before Eddie and Keela were called in.
This is true, and better said than I could. Mr. Grime did most definitely spend much more time with the dogs on all things McCann.
This is true, but why ? Because he knew about a subliminal doubt concerning the McCanns and had been asked to be very careful and leave no room to chance ? Or because he knew his dog had found something or nothing minutes after the door was open ?
Which is as good a definition of unconscious cuing as you need.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Redblossom on April 23, 2013, 06:32:08 PM
It's interesting to make a comparison of how much time was spent in all the other apartments and how much time was spent in the places Madeleine was known to have been -- as well as those places Madeleine was known not to have been but the McCanns were known to have been (if you follow the distinction) ...
It's not as simple as that. If the dog showed interest and his behaviour changed,more time would be spent to find the source of the interest. This did not happen in the other apartments, nor the Mccanns villa for that matter. Mr Grime's video commentary says where there was interest and where there wasn't.
You are assuming that with no proof.
You obviously have not watched the whole dog video then, I assume nothing.
You are assuming plenty. I am assuming nothing.
It is reasonable to assume and it is logical too, that when Mr Grime says his dog is showing interest, as in the odour he has been trained on is in a certain place, the handler has to find the source, howver long it takes. if the dog shows *no interest* then he will wait until it does or abandon that search
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Carana on April 23, 2013, 06:33:33 PM
Would you like a link to the independent inquiry as well?
Why, is that site not independent? Yes please.
Even if true, it doesn't really change much does it? Either the Mccanns were extremely unlucky and the dog alerted to all sorts of innocent materials only in and outside their flat from where Madeleine disappeared, and nowhere else, what are the odds of that? or there is more to it.
The ods are quite high that such errors would occur.
Really? The odds are that in a search of 17 places, the dogs would make errors in the one place from where a child went missing but not in the other 16?
The odds are that at least one alert in ten will be false. Where those false alerts occur is random. Remember that Eddie alerts to blood. I think only three joint alerts of Eddie and Keela suggested cadaver odor. Such joint alerts have an error of the two error rates multiplied together- 2 errors in 10 alerts.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 23, 2013, 06:37:41 PM
Eddie alerts to dried blood ( whether from a living or dead person) AND/OR cadaver odor. Source: Mr Grime in the PJ files.
So you are saying that the sand containing the scent of a hundred year old cadaver was found by Eddie because he was sniffing blood? >@@(*&)
NO
Dogs make simple errors at least 1 alert in 10.
Ok, so you are asking me to believe that Mr Grime hid a bottle of corpse contaminated sand in the rocks on the beach while he kept his dog in its cage a far distance away and when the dog found that scent after travesing a wide area of that beach it could have been an error? That he alerted to the cadaver scent hidden there? I thinkyou are pushing it, don't you? @)(++(*
Eddie on average will make a straightforward error at least one time in ten.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Eleanor on April 23, 2013, 06:39:10 PM
I noticed a difference in time spent on the other apartments too.
In 5a Eddie was made to smell almost every inch of the floor by the wardrobe, called back to smell the furniture etc.
In the other apartments it seemed to me as if it was a quick search.
Eddie was very interested in smelling behind I believe a cupboard in one of the other apartments? Although the furniture was pulled out I didn't see Mr. Grime spending the length of time going over the floor as he had in 5a.
The same in the bedroom of the other apartments. Eddie was smelling something under the bed in one of them and Mr. Grime calls him away actually telling him 'no'. Mr. Grime didn't pull the bed out and have Eddie smell all over the floor of the bedroom.
We must remember too that 5a had been rented out to I think three other families, before Eddie and Keela were called in.
This is true, and better said than I could. Mr. Grime did most definitely spend much more time with the dogs on all things McCann.
This is true, but why ? Because he knew about a subliminal doubt concerning the McCanns and had been asked to be very careful and leave no room to chance ? Or because he knew his dog had found something or nothing minutes after the door was open ?
He knew which was The McCann's appartment and which was The McCann's car, and he knew that Amaral had doubts. There isn't necessarily anything wrong about this, but time should have been more evenly spent elsewhere.
The blood found wasn't Madeleines, so what are the chances that no blood was spilled in other appartments?
The whole thing was wrong in the way in which it was gone about, and nothing found could ever have been used in a Court.
In fact, the only person who benefited was Martin Grime himself.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Redblossom on April 23, 2013, 06:39:40 PM
Would you like a link to the independent inquiry as well?
Why, is that site not independent? Yes please.
Even if true, it doesn't really change much does it? Either the Mccanns were extremely unlucky and the dog alerted to all sorts of innocent materials only in and outside their flat from where Madeleine disappeared, and nowhere else, what are the odds of that? or there is more to it.
The ods are quite high that such errors would occur.
Really? The odds are that in a search of 17 places, the dogs would make errors in the one place from where a child went missing but not in the other 16?
The odds are that at least one alert in ten will be false. Where those false alerts occur is random. Remember that Eddie alerts to blood. I think only three joint alerts of Eddie and Keela suggested cadaver odor. Such joint alerts have an error of the two error rates multiplied together- 2 errors in 10 alerts.
which leaves 8 alerts not in error? in flat 5a. Which constitutes alot of positive alerts in one place out of 17. >@@(*&)
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 23, 2013, 06:42:07 PM
Mr Grime does NOT say that Eddie had never made a false positive.
If you assert that, please provide a cite.
This belief is an unsupported myth.
Over to you.....
Think a bit. How can MG affirm that Eddie never made a false positive ? Obviously only in the cases where forensic material was found at the alert point. How can he affirm that it had happened Eddie giving a false negative ? Obviously only in the cases where forensic material was found at the non alert point. In the case of an alert without forensic material, obviously it's impossible to affirm whether Eddie was right or false. That's what MG kept saying.
Exactly. Where no supporting evidence is found it is either a false alert or an alert without physical trace- all we can say is that no supporting evidence is produced by the alert because it could be a simple error on the part of the dog and handler.
In the case of a dog who never made a false positive in the conditions mentioned above, one at least should certainly wonder when he alerts and nothing is found, considering moreover that post-mortem molecules are extremely volatile.
What do you mean?
You wouldn't ask if you had smelt those molecules.
I am a retired nurse. I have worked in hospital motuaries.
Don't ASSume.
Your coment is meaningless as scientific research shows that dogs will react to completely clean odor-free cloth squares if the handler belives it (see above).
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Redblossom on April 23, 2013, 06:42:27 PM
Eddie alerts to dried blood ( whether from a living or dead person) AND/OR cadaver odor. Source: Mr Grime in the PJ files.
So you are saying that the sand containing the scent of a hundred year old cadaver was found by Eddie because he was sniffing blood? >@@(*&)
NO
Dogs make simple errors at least 1 alert in 10.
Ok, so you are asking me to believe that Mr Grime hid a bottle of corpse contaminated sand in the rocks on the beach while he kept his dog in its cage a far distance away and when the dog found that scent after travesing a wide area of that beach it could have been an error? That he alerted to the cadaver scent hidden there? I thinkyou are pushing it, don't you? @)(++(*
Eddie on average will make a straightforward error at least one time in ten.
But there were no errors recorded in Jersey. That exercise was one exercise and one positive alert, therefore 100% correct, therefore your previous assertion that whenever eddie alerts alone it can NEVER be cadaver odour is wrong.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 23, 2013, 06:45:51 PM
Only ifyou do not understand how truth is based on forensic or scientific methods.
*****
DB
What is sweeping is saying that truth is only truth if proven scientifically or forensically. There are things forensics and science cannot prove but which are true. Ie the lingering scent of the hundredsof molecules that make up cadaver odour. if such an instrument exists to do this I have never heard about it. Truth of anything as provable on a court of law is different.
Such thoughts are not knowledge, but are unsupported belief.
Knowledge is defined as true belief supported by evidence. You have produced no evidence, merely stated a belief without any supporting evidence.
Ok so the goalposts are now moved to include *knowledge*
Not doing a thesis on philosophy are you?
Whatever you say you cannot square the circle here. This issue will never go away until it has been satisfactorily explained, and this far, that has not happened otherwise people wouldnt labour any point at all about it.
Only knowledge is truth. Otherwise it is mere conjecture and unsupported belief.
That is why the oath is "thetruth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth." Note there is no mention of belief or conjecture.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 23, 2013, 06:47:36 PM
It's interesting to make a comparison of how much time was spent in all the other apartments and how much time was spent in the places Madeleine was known to have been -- as well as those places Madeleine was known not to have been but the McCanns were known to have been (if you follow the distinction) ...
It's not as simple as that. If the dog showed interest and his behaviour changed,more time would be spent to find the source of the interest. This did not happen in the other apartments, nor the Mccanns villa for that matter. Mr Grime's video commentary says where there was interest and where there wasn't.
You are assuming that with no proof.
You obviously have not watched the whole dog video then, I assume nothing.
You are assuming plenty. I am assuming nothing.
It is reasonable to assume and it is logical too, that when Mr Grime says his dog is showing interest, as in the odour he has been trained on is in a certain place, the handler has to find the source, howver long it takes. if the dog shows *no interest* then he will wait until it does or abandon that search
That is your assumption. You only believe it and it is not necessarily the truth.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 23, 2013, 06:49:59 PM
Would you like a link to the independent inquiry as well?
Why, is that site not independent? Yes please.
Even if true, it doesn't really change much does it? Either the Mccanns were extremely unlucky and the dog alerted to all sorts of innocent materials only in and outside their flat from where Madeleine disappeared, and nowhere else, what are the odds of that? or there is more to it.
The ods are quite high that such errors would occur.
Really? The odds are that in a search of 17 places, the dogs would make errors in the one place from where a child went missing but not in the other 16?
The odds are that at least one alert in ten will be false. Where those false alerts occur is random. Remember that Eddie alerts to blood. I think only three joint alerts of Eddie and Keela suggested cadaver odor. Such joint alerts have an error of the two error rates multiplied together- 2 errors in 10 alerts.
which leaves 8 alerts not in error? in flat 5a. Which constitutes alot of positive alerts in one place out of 17. >@@(*&)
Yes. Alerts for blood. Eddie alerts to blood OR cadaver odor. Only if Keela does not react is it possibly (less than 80%) cadaver.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Redblossom on April 23, 2013, 06:51:20 PM
Only ifyou do not understand how truth is based on forensic or scientific methods.
*****
DB
What is sweeping is saying that truth is only truth if proven scientifically or forensically. There are things forensics and science cannot prove but which are true. Ie the lingering scent of the hundredsof molecules that make up cadaver odour. if such an instrument exists to do this I have never heard about it. Truth of anything as provable on a court of law is different.
Such thoughts are not knowledge, but are unsupported belief.
Knowledge is defined as true belief supported by evidence. You have produced no evidence, merely stated a belief without any supporting evidence.
Ok so the goalposts are now moved to include *knowledge*
Not doing a thesis on philosophy are you?
Whatever you say you cannot square the circle here. This issue will never go away until it has been satisfactorily explained, and this far, that has not happened otherwise people wouldnt labour any point at all about it.
Only knowledge is truth. Otherwise it is mere conjecture and unsupported belief.
That is why the oath is "thetruth, the whole truth and nothing but belief." Note there is no mention of belief or conjecture.
Knowledge by Mr Grime that he put a hundred year old corpses scent into a jar of sand and his dog trained to alert to cadavour odour ran and found it pdq is truth and not belief or conjecture
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 23, 2013, 06:52:54 PM
Eddie alerts to dried blood ( whether from a living or dead person) AND/OR cadaver odor. Source: Mr Grime in the PJ files.
So you are saying that the sand containing the scent of a hundred year old cadaver was found by Eddie because he was sniffing blood? >@@(*&)
NO
Dogs make simple errors at least 1 alert in 10.
Ok, so you are asking me to believe that Mr Grime hid a bottle of corpse contaminated sand in the rocks on the beach while he kept his dog in its cage a far distance away and when the dog found that scent after travesing a wide area of that beach it could have been an error? That he alerted to the cadaver scent hidden there? I thinkyou are pushing it, don't you? @)(++(*
Eddie on average will make a straightforward error at least one time in ten.
But there were no errors recorded in Jersey. That exercise was one exercise and one positive alert, therefore 100% correct, therefore your previous assertion that whenever eddie alerts alone it can NEVER be cadaver odour is wrong.
No errors in Jersey. How do you know that.
I have not said that when Eddie alerts alone it can never be cadaver odor. If you believe I have said that, please indicate where youthink I said that.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 23, 2013, 06:54:41 PM
Only ifyou do not understand how truth is based on forensic or scientific methods.
*****
DB
What is sweeping is saying that truth is only truth if proven scientifically or forensically. There are things forensics and science cannot prove but which are true. Ie the lingering scent of the hundredsof molecules that make up cadaver odour. if such an instrument exists to do this I have never heard about it. Truth of anything as provable on a court of law is different.
Such thoughts are not knowledge, but are unsupported belief.
Knowledge is defined as true belief supported by evidence. You have produced no evidence, merely stated a belief without any supporting evidence.
Ok so the goalposts are now moved to include *knowledge*
Not doing a thesis on philosophy are you?
Whatever you say you cannot square the circle here. This issue will never go away until it has been satisfactorily explained, and this far, that has not happened otherwise people wouldnt labour any point at all about it.
Only knowledge is truth. Otherwise it is mere conjecture and unsupported belief.
That is why the oath is "thetruth, the whole truth and nothing but belief." Note there is no mention of belief or conjecture.
Knowledge by Mr Grime that he put a hundred year old corpses scent into a jar of sand and his dog trained to alert to cadavour odour ran and found it pdq is truth and not belief or conjecture
Yes. Eddie will be right 9 times in ten if tested like this. He will be in error about o n e time in ten.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Redblossom on April 23, 2013, 06:55:45 PM
Beyond doubt, it is appalling bad practice for any dog attending a crime scene to pick things in up in its mouth.
Also to trample all over stuff the dog is tasked to inspect.
And quite what Grime was playing at putting Eddie in a position where he had no trained response to indicate anything specific, I'm not sure ...
Wouldn't that be for a seasoned dog handler using a single dog to know and not a layman?
A seasoned (and professional!) dog handler would know -- better!
Since you are a layman you are in no position whatsoever to state that Mr Grime should have known better as you have no idea of Eddies training, actions, etc etc
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 23, 2013, 06:57:06 PM
Beyond doubt, it is appalling bad practice for any dog attending a crime scene to pick things in up in its mouth.
Also to trample all over stuff the dog is tasked to inspect.
And quite what Grime was playing at putting Eddie in a position where he had no trained response to indicate anything specific, I'm not sure ...
Wouldn't that be for a seasoned dog handler using a single dog to know and not a layman?
A seasoned (and professional!) dog handler would know -- better!
Since you are a layman you are in no position whatsoever to state that Mr Grime should have known better as you have no idea of Eddies training, actions, etc etc
Exactly- as wortless as your opinions.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Redblossom on April 23, 2013, 06:59:15 PM
Would you like a link to the independent inquiry as well?
Why, is that site not independent? Yes please.
Even if true, it doesn't really change much does it? Either the Mccanns were extremely unlucky and the dog alerted to all sorts of innocent materials only in and outside their flat from where Madeleine disappeared, and nowhere else, what are the odds of that? or there is more to it.
The ods are quite high that such errors would occur.
Really? The odds are that in a search of 17 places, the dogs would make errors in the one place from where a child went missing but not in the other 16?
The odds are that at least one alert in ten will be false. Where those false alerts occur is random. Remember that Eddie alerts to blood. I think only three joint alerts of Eddie and Keela suggested cadaver odor. Such joint alerts have an error of the two error rates multiplied together- 2 errors in 10 alerts.
which leaves 8 alerts not in error? in flat 5a. Which constitutes alot of positive alerts in one place out of 17. >@@(*&)
Yes. Alerts for blood. Eddie alerts to blood OR cadaver odor. Only if Keela does not react is it possibly (less than 80%) cadaver.
No, you were talking about the alerts that Keela did not confirm, therefore not blood
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Redblossom on April 23, 2013, 07:01:19 PM
Beyond doubt, it is appalling bad practice for any dog attending a crime scene to pick things in up in its mouth.
Also to trample all over stuff the dog is tasked to inspect.
And quite what Grime was playing at putting Eddie in a position where he had no trained response to indicate anything specific, I'm not sure ...
Wouldn't that be for a seasoned dog handler using a single dog to know and not a layman?
A seasoned (and professional!) dog handler would know -- better!
Since you are a layman you are in no position whatsoever to state that Mr Grime should have known better as you have no idea of Eddies training, actions, etc etc
Exactly- as wortless as your opinions.
YOU might think my comments are worthless, doesnt make them so, that is YOUR opinion, but I did not profess to know what a cadaver dog should and shouldnt do and pretend to know better than the professional
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 23, 2013, 07:03:56 PM
Would you like a link to the independent inquiry as well?
Why, is that site not independent? Yes please.
Even if true, it doesn't really change much does it? Either the Mccanns were extremely unlucky and the dog alerted to all sorts of innocent materials only in and outside their flat from where Madeleine disappeared, and nowhere else, what are the odds of that? or there is more to it.
The ods are quite high that such errors would occur.
Really? The odds are that in a search of 17 places, the dogs would make errors in the one place from where a child went missing but not in the other 16?
The odds are that at least one alert in ten will be false. Where those false alerts occur is random. Remember that Eddie alerts to blood. I think only three joint alerts of Eddie and Keela suggested cadaver odor. Such joint alerts have an error of the two error rates multiplied together- 2 errors in 10 alerts.
which leaves 8 alerts not in error? in flat 5a. Which constitutes alot of positive alerts in one place out of 17. >@@(*&)
Yes. Alerts for blood. Eddie alerts to blood OR cadaver odor. Only if Keela does not react is it possibly (less than 80%) cadaver.
No, you were talking about the alerts that Keela did not confirm, therefore not blood
In such joint alerts, only 80% at maximum on average will be correct.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Redblossom on April 23, 2013, 07:04:34 PM
Eddie alerts to dried blood ( whether from a living or dead person) AND/OR cadaver odor. Source: Mr Grime in the PJ files.
So you are saying that the sand containing the scent of a hundred year old cadaver was found by Eddie because he was sniffing blood? >@@(*&)
NO
Dogs make simple errors at least 1 alert in 10.
Ok, so you are asking me to believe that Mr Grime hid a bottle of corpse contaminated sand in the rocks on the beach while he kept his dog in its cage a far distance away and when the dog found that scent after travesing a wide area of that beach it could have been an error? That he alerted to the cadaver scent hidden there? I thinkyou are pushing it, don't you? @)(++(*
Eddie on average will make a straightforward error at least one time in ten.
But there were no errors recorded in Jersey. That exercise was one exercise and one positive alert, therefore 100% correct, therefore your previous assertion that whenever eddie alerts alone it can NEVER be cadaver odour is wrong.
No errors in Jersey. How do you know that.
I have not said that when Eddie alerts alone it can never be cadaver odor. If you believe I have said that, please indicate where youthink I said that.
yes you did, your post today around 3.30 pm
Quote
Eddie alerts to dried blood from a currently living person. An alert from him alone NEVER indicates cadaver odor.
Unquote 8((()*/
My copy and paste from Lenny Harper earlier on the thread where he said the dogs were tested in Jersey and they were always right, ergo, no errors in Jersey
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 23, 2013, 07:06:36 PM
Beyond doubt, it is appalling bad practice for any dog attending a crime scene to pick things in up in its mouth.
Also to trample all over stuff the dog is tasked to inspect.
And quite what Grime was playing at putting Eddie in a position where he had no trained response to indicate anything specific, I'm not sure ...
Wouldn't that be for a seasoned dog handler using a single dog to know and not a layman?
A seasoned (and professional!) dog handler would know -- better!
Since you are a layman you are in no position whatsoever to state that Mr Grime should have known better as you have no idea of Eddies training, actions, etc etc
Exactly- as wortless as your opinions.
YOU might think my comments are worthless, doesnt make them so, that is YOUR opinion, but I did not profess to know what a cadaver dog should and shouldnt do and pretend to know better than the professional
I am not claming to know better than the professionals. I am quoting the results of professional researchers in peer reviwed journals. You are merely saying what you believe. I produce evidence, you produce emotions.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Redblossom on April 23, 2013, 07:08:34 PM
Would you like a link to the independent inquiry as well?
Why, is that site not independent? Yes please.
Even if true, it doesn't really change much does it? Either the Mccanns were extremely unlucky and the dog alerted to all sorts of innocent materials only in and outside their flat from where Madeleine disappeared, and nowhere else, what are the odds of that? or there is more to it.
The ods are quite high that such errors would occur.
Really? The odds are that in a search of 17 places, the dogs would make errors in the one place from where a child went missing but not in the other 16?
The odds are that at least one alert in ten will be false. Where those false alerts occur is random. Remember that Eddie alerts to blood. I think only three joint alerts of Eddie and Keela suggested cadaver odor. Such joint alerts have an error of the two error rates multiplied together- 2 errors in 10 alerts.
which leaves 8 alerts not in error? in flat 5a. Which constitutes alot of positive alerts in one place out of 17. >@@(*&)
Yes. Alerts for blood. Eddie alerts to blood OR cadaver odor. Only if Keela does not react is it possibly (less than 80%) cadaver.
No, you were talking about the alerts that Keela did not confirm, therefore not blood
In such joint alerts, only 80% at maximum on average will be correct.
Obfuscating now? There were two joint alerts between Eddie and Keela. POSSIBLY both to blood but not proven there was no cadaver odour involved. ALL the other alerts were Eddies only, ergo alerts to cadaverous contaminant only and not blood.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Redblossom on April 23, 2013, 07:09:59 PM
Beyond doubt, it is appalling bad practice for any dog attending a crime scene to pick things in up in its mouth.
Also to trample all over stuff the dog is tasked to inspect.
And quite what Grime was playing at putting Eddie in a position where he had no trained response to indicate anything specific, I'm not sure ...
Wouldn't that be for a seasoned dog handler using a single dog to know and not a layman?
A seasoned (and professional!) dog handler would know -- better!
Since you are a layman you are in no position whatsoever to state that Mr Grime should have known better as you have no idea of Eddies training, actions, etc etc
Exactly- as wortless as your opinions.
YOU might think my comments are worthless, doesnt make them so, that is YOUR opinion, but I did not profess to know what a cadaver dog should and shouldnt do and pretend to know better than the professional
I am not claming to know better than the professionals. I am quoting the results of professional researchers in peer reviwed journals. You are merely saying what you believe. I produce evidence, you produce emotions.
i never accused you of professing to know better, it was Ferryman who suggested he did
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Redblossom on April 23, 2013, 07:14:15 PM
Anyone with half a brain will know that this question will not go away until resolved
I suppose everyone should just accept what the Mccanns say then?
- the dogs are extremely unreliable - mentioning the dogs is abuse - the dogs only reacted to please their master - the dogs have been problematic on the past, etc, funny that, until and afted the Mccann case and Jersey case I dont recall anyone making a song and dance about the reliability of these dogs to this extent of libelling and misconstruing >@@(*&)
Everyone knows these two statements are untrue
and what DB and others say here
- the dog alerts mean nothing and should be ignored
I will hold an informed opinion on what they could mean
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 23, 2013, 07:14:27 PM
Eddie alerts to dried blood ( whether from a living or dead person) AND/OR cadaver odor. Source: Mr Grime in the PJ files.
So you are saying that the sand containing the scent of a hundred year old cadaver was found by Eddie because he was sniffing blood? >@@(*&)
NO
Dogs make simple errors at least 1 alert in 10.
Ok, so you are asking me to believe that Mr Grime hid a bottle of corpse contaminated sand in the rocks on the beach while he kept his dog in its cage a far distance away and when the dog found that scent after travesing a wide area of that beach it could have been an error? That he alerted to the cadaver scent hidden there? I thinkyou are pushing it, don't you? @)(++(*
Eddie on average will make a straightforward error at least one time in ten.
But there were no errors recorded in Jersey. That exercise was one exercise and one positive alert, therefore 100% correct, therefore your previous assertion that whenever eddie alerts alone it can NEVER be cadaver odour is wrong.
No errors in Jersey. How do you know that.
I have not said that when Eddie alerts alone it can never be cadaver odor. If you believe I have said that, please indicate where youthink I said that.
yes you did, your post today around 3.30 pm
Quote
Eddie alerts to dried blood from a currently living person. An alert from him alone NEVER indicates cadaver odor.
Unquote 8((()*/
My copy and paste from Lenny Harper earlier on the thread where he said the dogs were tested in Jersey and they were always right, ergo, no errors in Jersey
Ah! I see your problem.
I said that an alert from Eddie alone can never INDICATE cadaver cadaver odor.
You misinterpreted this as me saying that Eddie alerts alone this can never BE cadaver odor.
An alert from Eddie shows is that it could be dried blood or cadaver odor (or an error). As blood is many thousands of times more likely to be found, a sigle alert cannot INDICATE cadaver odor as it is far more likely to be a cut finger or shaving nick. If Keela fails to react, this tends to indicate cadaver odor (or an error) but not blood.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: DCI on April 23, 2013, 07:15:37 PM
The definitive proof (in that report somewhere) that Eddie alerted to a coconut shell ...
How does a test in an Oxford lab on the find revealing the presence of collagen make it definitely a coconut? Collagen is only found in mammals.
I think you will find the test was done in Kew Gardens, London.
In February 2009 States of Jersey Police sent the fragment to Kew Gardens in the UK for testing. In May 2009 the Kew experts[7] stated that the fragment was a piece of endocarp of Cocos nucifera, thereby confirming that the fragment was a piece of coconut.[8]
Don't forget, Grime was selling these dogs to Harper, in Jersey, by using his private business. He also used the video recorded in Praia da Luz, of the McCann's car, to do so. If I'm not mistaken, this was before the official files were released.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 23, 2013, 07:16:20 PM
The definitive proof (in that report somewhere) that Eddie alerted to a coconut shell ...
How does a test in an Oxford lab on the find revealing the presence of collagen make it definitely a coconut? Collagen is only found in mammals.
I think you will find the test was done in Kew Gardens, London.
In February 2009 States of Jersey Police sent the fragment to Kew Gardens in the UK for testing. In May 2009 the Kew experts[7] stated that the fragment was a piece of endocarp of Cocos nucifera, thereby confirming that the fragment was a piece of coconut.[8]
Don't forget, Grime was selling these dogs to Harper, in Jersey, by using his private business. He also used the video recorded in Praia da Luz, of the McCann's car, to do so. If I'm not mistaken, this was before the official files were released.
Well then seems to be a discrepancy in what was sent to be tested....oxford lab says collagen, kew gardens says coconut, the two dont marry
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Redblossom on April 23, 2013, 07:21:53 PM
I said that an alert from Eddie alone can never INDICATE cadaver cadaver odor.
You misinterpreted this as me saying that Eddie alerts alone this can never BE cadaver odor.
An alert from Eddie shows is that it could be dried blood or cadaver odor (or an error). As blood is many thousands of times more likely to be found, a sigle alert cannot INDICATE cadaver odor as it is far more likely to be a cut finger or shaving nick. If Keela fails to react, this tends to indicate cadaver odor (or an error) but not blood.
Fine,sorted then apart drom the fact you were suggesting eddie alerted to blood on the remnant scent of a mummy in that example!...as for could be an error as the third possibility, theres a fourth, he could be right, which you seem to have expunged from your reasoning which I find odd if you are considering,ALL possibilities, never mind, had enough of this never ending round in circles debate for one day
Edited
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 23, 2013, 07:23:48 PM
The definitive proof (in that report somewhere) that Eddie alerted to a coconut shell ...
How does a test in an Oxford lab on the find revealing the presence of collagen make it definitely a coconut? Collagen is only found in mammals.
I think you will find the test was done in Kew Gardens, London.
In February 2009 States of Jersey Police sent the fragment to Kew Gardens in the UK for testing. In May 2009 the Kew experts[7] stated that the fragment was a piece of endocarp of Cocos nucifera, thereby confirming that the fragment was a piece of coconut.[8]
Don't forget, Grime was selling these dogs to Harper, in Jersey, by using his private business. He also used the video recorded in Praia da Luz, of the McCann's car, to do so. If I'm not mistaken, this was before the official files were released.
Well then seems to be a discrepancy in what was sent to be tested....oxford lab says collagen, kew gardens says coconut, the two dont marry
Do you have the cite for the collagen result? Was contamination excluded?
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 23, 2013, 07:25:36 PM
Are we agreed at least that the dogs are not proved to be 100% accurate?
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Redblossom on April 23, 2013, 07:40:30 PM
Are we agreed at least that the dogs are not proved to be 100% accurate?
i think that much is probably true, but it matters not very much, the pertinent thing is the saying beyond a reasonable doubt and nothing posted here on this thread or anywhere else has convinced me that the dog alerts could be innocent and nothing to do with the missing child
JMHO
As for the tests on the coconut/skull, I have not read too much about it, not researched that case,so I dont have a cite for anything apart from what I already posted,but I am sure that a hatchet job on Mr Grime and the dogs was done in Jersey, as well as the original policeman Mr Harper, if anything stinks of a cover up and I am not a conspiracy theorist I would saythat probably was, and it wouldnt be the first time in a high profile case
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Redblossom on April 23, 2013, 07:49:13 PM
I noticed a difference in time spent on the other apartments too.
In 5a Eddie was made to smell almost every inch of the floor by the wardrobe, called back to smell the furniture etc.
In the other apartments it seemed to me as if it was a quick search.
Eddie was very interested in smelling behind I believe a cupboard in one of the other apartments? Although the furniture was pulled out I didn't see Mr. Grime spending the length of time going over the floor as he had in 5a.
The same in the bedroom of the other apartments. Eddie was smelling something under the bed in one of them and Mr. Grime calls him away actually telling him 'no'. Mr. Grime didn't pull the bed out and have Eddie smell all over the floor of the bedroom.
We must remember too that 5a had been rented out to I think three other families, before Eddie and Keela were called in.
This is true, and better said than I could. Mr. Grime did most definitely spend much more time with the dogs on all things McCann.
This is true, but why ? Because he knew about a subliminal doubt concerning the McCanns and had been asked to be very careful and leave no room to chance ? Or because he knew his dog had found something or nothing minutes after the door was open ?
He knew which was The McCann's appartment and which was The McCann's car, and he knew that Amaral had doubts. There isn't necessarily anything wrong about this, but time should have been more evenly spent elsewhere.
The blood found wasn't Madeleines, so what are the chances that no blood was spilled in other appartments?
The whole thing was wrong in the way in which it was gone about, and nothing found could ever have been used in a Court.
In fact, the only person who benefited was Martin Grime himself.
The results were INCONCLUSIVE,the FSS said it was not possible to clarify one way or another, ergo it is false to say the blood found was NOT Madeleine's.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 23, 2013, 07:51:07 PM
Are we agreed at least that the dogs are not proved to be 100% accurate?
i think that much is probably true, but it matters not very much, the pertinent thing is the saying beyond a reasonable doubt and nothing posted here on this thread or anywhere else has convinced me that the dog alerts could be innocent and nothing to do with the missing child
JMHO
As for the tests on the coconut/skull, I have not read too much about it, not researched that case,so I dont have a cite for anything apart from what I already posted,but I am sure that a hatchet job on Mr Grime and the dogs was done in Jersey, as well as the original policeman Mr Harper, if anything stinks of a cover up and I am not a conspiracy theorist I would saythat probably was, and it wouldnt be the first time in a high profile case
So in both cases you are just offering your unsupported opinion.
Now what weight should we place on your unsupported opinion?
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 23, 2013, 07:56:27 PM
The results were INCONCLUSIVE,the FSS said it was not possible to clarify one way or another, ergo it is false to say the blood found was NOT Madeleine's.
It is also false to say it was Madeleine's.
It is correct to say that 15 of Madeleine's markers were found in a sample made up of at least three people's DNA. It is known that such a result is shared with 50% of the population of Europe. It is also a fact that every one of Madeleine's markers were shared withher parents and half of them were shared with the twins. That makes any inter presentation very difficult.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Redblossom on April 23, 2013, 07:58:30 PM
Are we agreed at least that the dogs are not proved to be 100% accurate?
i think that much is probably true, but it matters not very much, the pertinent thing is the saying beyond a reasonable doubt and nothing posted here on this thread or anywhere else has convinced me that the dog alerts could be innocent and nothing to do with the missing child
JMHO
As for the tests on the coconut/skull, I have not read too much about it, not researched that case,so I dont have a cite for anything apart from what I already posted,but I am sure that a hatchet job on Mr Grime and the dogs was done in Jersey, as well as the original policeman Mr Harper, if anything stinks of a cover up and I am not a conspiracy theorist I would saythat probably was, and it wouldnt be the first time in a high profile case
So in both cases you are just offering your unsupported opinion.
Now what weight should we place on your unsupported opinion?
Not all opinions have to be supported by anything, an opinion is an opinion as said, formed and based on previous opinions facts staements and the rest unless its an accusation or allegation or statement of fact which can be backed up instantly, an opinion is formed over time and after reading lotsand thinking, surely you are not asking for a dated list of everything an opinion former has read to date?
As for the jersey case yes that is my opinion, though as i said i have not researched it so cannot assert anything about it
Since when did people have to PROVE their opinions were right, thats the meaning of an OPINION, its a personal view or conclusion, sheesh
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Redblossom on April 23, 2013, 08:00:55 PM
I noticed a difference in time spent on the other apartments too.
In 5a Eddie was made to smell almost every inch of the floor by the wardrobe, called back to smell the furniture etc.
In the other apartments it seemed to me as if it was a quick search.
Eddie was very interested in smelling behind I believe a cupboard in one of the other apartments? Although the furniture was pulled out I didn't see Mr. Grime spending the length of time going over the floor as he had in 5a.
The same in the bedroom of the other apartments. Eddie was smelling something under the bed in one of them and Mr. Grime calls him away actually telling him 'no'. Mr. Grime didn't pull the bed out and have Eddie smell all over the floor of the bedroom.
We must remember too that 5a had been rented out to I think three other families, before Eddie and Keela were called in.
This is true, and better said than I could. Mr. Grime did most definitely spend much more time with the dogs on all things McCann.
This is true, but why ? Because he knew about a subliminal doubt concerning the McCanns and had been asked to be very careful and leave no room to chance ? Or because he knew his dog had found something or nothing minutes after the door was open ?
He knew which was The McCann's appartment and which was The McCann's car, and he knew that Amaral had doubts. There isn't necessarily anything wrong about this, but time should have been more evenly spent elsewhere.
The blood found wasn't Madeleines, so what are the chances that no blood was spilled in other appartments?
The whole thing was wrong in the way in which it was gone about, and nothing found could ever have been used in a Court.
In fact, the only person who benefited was Martin Grime himself.
The results were INCONCLUSIVE,the FSS said it was not possible to clarify one way or another, ergo it is false to say the blood found was NOT Madeleine's.
It is also false to say it was Madeleine's.
It is correct to say that 15 of Madeleine's markers were found in a sample made up of at least three people's DNA. It is known that such a result is shared with 50% of the population of Europe. It is also a fact that every one of Madeleine's markers were shared withher parents and half of them were shared with the twins. That makes any inter presentation very difficult.
Of course its wrong to say it WAS Madeleines. but I dont buy that that half of Europes population will have had that, if so, there would be no point in dna testing?
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 23, 2013, 08:02:17 PM
Are we agreed at least that the dogs are not proved to be 100% accurate?
i think that much is probably true, but it matters not very much, the pertinent thing is the saying beyond a reasonable doubt and nothing posted here on this thread or anywhere else has convinced me that the dog alerts could be innocent and nothing to do with the missing child 7 JMHO
As for the tests on the coconut/skull, I have not read too much about it, not researched that case,so I dont have a cite for anything apart from what I already posted,but I am sure that a hatchet job on Mr Grime and the dogs was done in Jersey, as well as the original policeman Mr Harper, if anything stinks of a cover up and I am not a conspiracy theorist I would saythat probably was, and it wouldnt be the first time in a high profile case
So in both cases you are just offering your unsupported opinion.
Now what weight should we place on your unsupported opinion?
Not all opinions have to be supported by anything, an opinion is an opinion as said, formed and based on previous opinions facts staements and the rest unless its an accusation or allegation or statement of fact which can be backed up instantly, an opinion is formed over time and after reading lotsand thinking, surely you are not asking for a dated list of everything an opinion former has read to date?
As for the jersey case yes that is my opinion, though as i said i have not researched it so cannot assert anything about it
Since when did people have to PROVE their opinions were right, thats the meaning of an OPINION, its a personal view or conclusion, sheesh
It goes like this- an opinion tells people what has occurred in your mind; a fact tells you what happens in the real world.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Eleanor on April 23, 2013, 08:05:07 PM
I noticed a difference in time spent on the other apartments too.
In 5a Eddie was made to smell almost every inch of the floor by the wardrobe, called back to smell the furniture etc.
In the other apartments it seemed to me as if it was a quick search.
Eddie was very interested in smelling behind I believe a cupboard in one of the other apartments? Although the furniture was pulled out I didn't see Mr. Grime spending the length of time going over the floor as he had in 5a.
The same in the bedroom of the other apartments. Eddie was smelling something under the bed in one of them and Mr. Grime calls him away actually telling him 'no'. Mr. Grime didn't pull the bed out and have Eddie smell all over the floor of the bedroom.
We must remember too that 5a had been rented out to I think three other families, before Eddie and Keela were called in.
This is true, and better said than I could. Mr. Grime did most definitely spend much more time with the dogs on all things McCann.
This is true, but why ? Because he knew about a subliminal doubt concerning the McCanns and had been asked to be very careful and leave no room to chance ? Or because he knew his dog had found something or nothing minutes after the door was open ?
He knew which was The McCann's appartment and which was The McCann's car, and he knew that Amaral had doubts. There isn't necessarily anything wrong about this, but time should have been more evenly spent elsewhere.
The blood found wasn't Madeleines, so what are the chances that no blood was spilled in other appartments?
The whole thing was wrong in the way in which it was gone about, and nothing found could ever have been used in a Court.
In fact, the only person who benefited was Martin Grime himself.
The results were INCONCLUSIVE,the FSS said it was not possible to clarify one way or another, ergo it is false to say the blood found was NOT Madeleine's.
We know that a Northern European man bled in that appartment. Are you saying that no one else bled in any of the other appartments?
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 23, 2013, 08:05:41 PM
Of course its wrong to say it WAS Madeleines. but I dont buy that that half of Europes population will have had that, if so, there would be no point in dna testing?
But that was the analysis of the senior forensic scientist after training to post graduate level, working for decades for the FSS.
What weight does your tiny, ill informed and erroneous belief have against such a formal sworn scientific opinion?
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Eleanor on April 23, 2013, 08:08:25 PM
Not all opinions have to be supported by anything, an opinion is an opinion as said, formed and based on previous opinions facts staements and the rest unless its an accusation or allegation or statement of fact which can be backed up instantly, an opinion is formed over time and after reading lotsand thinking, surely you are not asking for a dated list of everything an opinion former has read to date?
As for the jersey case yes that is my opinion, though as i said i have not researched it so cannot assert anything about it
Since when did people have to PROVE their opinions were right, thats the meaning of an OPINION, its a personal view or conclusion, sheesh
Libel is an opinion, unless deliberately known to be a lie. Both are unacceptable
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: AnneGuedes on April 23, 2013, 08:12:04 PM
Libel is an opinion, unless deliberately known to be a lie. Both are unacceptable
Who is libelling here? Discussing the dogs repertoire apart from ferryman who posts mr grime has l.... in his cv? Has cued the dogs, has skewed things to further his career? >@@(*&) Informed opinions are not libel unless they accuse, or state something which is untrue and defamatory, last time I looked they were LEGAL and part of a democratic society
Ps Kate Mccann libelled Mr Grime in her book too 8((()*/
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 23, 2013, 08:39:02 PM
Who is libelling here? Discussing the dogs repertoire apart from ferryman who posts mr grime has lied in his cv? Has cued the dogs, has skewed things to further his career? >@@(*&) Informed opinions are not libel unless they accuse, or state something which is untrue and defamatory, last time I looked they were LEGAL and part of a democratic society
Ps Kate Mccann libelled Mr Grime in her book too 8((()*/
Cite?
I must have missed the court case.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: AnneGuedes on April 23, 2013, 08:40:43 PM
I said that an alert from Eddie alone can never INDICATE cadaver cadaver odor.
You misinterpreted this as me saying that Eddie alerts alone this can never BE cadaver odor.
An alert from Eddie shows is that it could be dried blood or cadaver odor (or an error). As blood is many thousands of times more likely to be found, a sigle alert cannot INDICATE cadaver odor as it is far more likely to be a cut finger or shaving nick. If Keela fails to react, this tends to indicate cadaver odor (or an error) but not blood.
I misinterpreted too, just like Redblossom. I'm rather relieved not to be alone since you questioned my skills in English.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Redblossom on April 23, 2013, 09:05:36 PM
I said that an alert from Eddie alone can never INDICATE cadaver cadaver odor.
You misinterpreted this as me saying that Eddie alerts alone this can never BE cadaver odor.
An alert from Eddie shows is that it could be dried blood or cadaver odor (or an error). As blood is many thousands of times more likely to be found, a sigle alert cannot INDICATE cadaver odor as it is far more likely to be a cut finger or shaving nick. If Keela fails to react, this tends to indicate cadaver odor (or an error) but not blood.
I misinterpreted too, just like Redblossom. I'm rather relieved not to be alone since you questioned my skills in English.
Neither of us misunderstood really. DB is definitely to trying to play up the idea that Eddie alerts to blood more than cadaver odour from a dead body remnant scent. That much is obvious. Eddie when tested with cadaver odour alone and not blood, alerted to it, therefore his alone alert does prove its cadaver odour. The way this is being posited is that Keela has to prove eddies alerts are not to cadaver odour, if she alerts in the same place, doubt is put there what the alert was to, when its a fact keela is brought in to find forensics, in the absence of a body, via blood, not play a game of dice if Eddie alerted to cadaver or blood from a living person. If Eddies job was to react to both cadaver and blood, Keelas job would be redundant!
So the question DB is now, why have a blood dog working in tandem with a cadaver dog that alerts to blood? >@@(*&)
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: DCI on April 23, 2013, 09:09:58 PM
Neither of us misunderstood really. DB is definitely to trying to play up the idea that Eddie alerts to blood more than cadaver odour from a dead body remnant scent. That much is obvious. Eddie when tested with cadaver odour alone and not blood, alerted to it, therefore his alone alert does prove its cadaver odour. the way this is being posited is that keela has to prove eddies alerts are not to cadaver odour, when its a fact keela is brought in to find forensics, in the absence of a body, not play a game of dice if eddie alerted to cadaver or blood from a living person. if Eddies job ws to react to both cadaver and blood, Keelas job would be redundant!
Thanks Redblossom.
So who died half way up the wall, in the garage the cars were being checked in? 5 times Eddie ran away from Grime woofing at the wall.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 23, 2013, 09:12:48 PM
I said that an alert from Eddie alone can never INDICATE cadaver cadaver odor.
You misinterpreted this as me saying that Eddie alerts alone this can never BE cadaver odor.
An alert from Eddie shows is that it could be dried blood or cadaver odor (or an error). As blood is many thousands of times more likely to be found, a sigle alert cannot INDICATE cadaver odor as it is far more likely to be a cut finger or shaving nick. If Keela fails to react, this tends to indicate cadaver odor (or an error) but not blood.
I misinterpreted too, just like Redblossom. I'm rather relieved not to be alone since you questioned my skills in English.
Neither of us misunderstood really. DB is definitely to trying to play up the idea that Eddie alerts to blood more than cadaver odour from a dead body remnant scent. That much is obvious. Eddie when tested with cadaver odour alone and not blood, alerted to it, therefore his alone alert does prove its cadaver odour. The way this is being posited is that Keela has to prove eddies alerts are not to cadaver odour, if she alerts in the same place, doubt is put there what the alert was to, when its a fact keela is brought in to find forensics, in the absence of a body, via blood, not play a game of dice if Eddie alerted to cadaver or blood from a living person. If Eddies job was to react to both cadaver and blood, Keelas job would be redundant!
That is your unsupported and erroneous opinion.
Will you take Mr Grime's word for Eddie alerting to blood OR cadaver?
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Redblossom on April 23, 2013, 09:13:47 PM
I said that an alert from Eddie alone can never INDICATE cadaver cadaver odor.
You misinterpreted this as me saying that Eddie alerts alone this can never BE cadaver odor.
An alert from Eddie shows is that it could be dried blood or cadaver odor (or an error). As blood is many thousands of times more likely to be found, a sigle alert cannot INDICATE cadaver odor as it is far more likely to be a cut finger or shaving nick. If Keela fails to react, this tends to indicate cadaver odor (or an error) but not blood.
I misinterpreted too, just like Redblossom. I'm rather relieved not to be alone since you questioned my skills in English.
Neither of us misunderstood really. DB is definitely to trying to play up the idea that Eddie alerts to blood more than cadaver odour from a dead body remnant scent. That much is obvious. Eddie when tested with cadaver odour alone and not blood, alerted to it, therefore his alone alert does prove its cadaver odour. the way this is being posited is that keela has to prove eddies alerts are not to cadaver odour, when its a fact keela is brought in to find forensics, in the absence of a body, not play a game of dice if eddie alerted to cadaver or blood from a living person. if Eddies job ws to react to both cadaver and blood, Keelas job would be redundant!
Thanks Redblossom.
So who died half way up the wall, in the garage the cars were being checked in? 5 times Eddie ran away from Grime woofing at the wall.
The dog scents but does not know where it is coming from so it will run around until guided, I dont recall the dog running up a wall five times on the dog video, I must rewatch it
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 23, 2013, 09:15:41 PM
I said that an alert from Eddie alone can never INDICATE cadaver cadaver odor.
You misinterpreted this as me saying that Eddie alerts alone this can never BE cadaver odor.
An alert from Eddie shows is that it could be dried blood or cadaver odor (or an error). As blood is many thousands of times more likely to be found, a sigle alert cannot INDICATE cadaver odor as it is far more likely to be a cut finger or shaving nick. If Keela fails to react, this tends to indicate cadaver odor (or an error) but not blood.
I misinterpreted too, just like Redblossom. I'm rather relieved not to be alone since you questioned my skills in English.
Neither of us misunderstood really. DB is definitely to trying to play up the idea that Eddie alerts to blood more than cadaver odour from a dead body remnant scent. That much is obvious. Eddie when tested with cadaver odour alone and not blood, alerted to it, therefore his alone alert does prove its cadaver odour. the way this is being posited is that keela has to prove eddies alerts are not to cadaver odour, when its a fact keela is brought in to find forensics, in the absence of a body, not play a game of dice if eddie alerted to cadaver or blood from a living person. if Eddies job ws to react to both cadaver and blood, Keelas job would be redundant!
Thanks Redblossom.
So who died half way up the wall, in the garage the cars were being checked in? 5 times Eddie ran away from Grime woofing at the wall.
The dog scents but does not know where it is coming from so it will run around until guided, I dont recall the dog running up a wall five times on the dog video, I must rewatch it
You should, he does.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Redblossom on April 23, 2013, 09:18:36 PM
Even if so its for a professional dog handler to do and not a layman to criticise because he dont like the results
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 23, 2013, 09:21:21 PM
"Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.RD.) will search for and locate human remains and body fluids including blood to very small samples in any environment or terrain."
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Redblossom on April 23, 2013, 09:30:50 PM
"Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.RD.) will search for and locate human remains and body fluids including blood to very small samples in any environment or terrain."
We all agreed pages and pages ago that Eddie can alert to blood, the convo has moved on eons after that, but you are ignoring it or dont understand it, thats ok though ?>)()<
you can obfuscate move goalposts and backtrack and ignore if you want but my time with YOU is over so on ignore, fill yer boots though, you will probably always have an epic fail in this area, why? Because you are wrong and biased and have an agenda, bad mix at the very best, people are not STUPID you know, and you are not the cleverest dick around
PLUS no one has proved eddie did not react to a dead body on 5a or offered any logical reason why the dog akertes there and no where else
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: DCI on April 23, 2013, 09:32:44 PM
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Redblossom on April 23, 2013, 09:38:57 PM
Aww bless you DCI, I will watch and read when I get a few hours tomorrow, but dont hold on to your hat that I will conclude or have an opinion that Mr Grime was a f..... and got videoed being one LOL 8((()*/
as someone else said, not in his career interest to do anything of the kind, if you think about it
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: DCI on April 23, 2013, 09:44:21 PM
Aww bless you DCI, I will watch and read when I get a few hours tomorrow, but dont hold on to your hat that I will conclude or have an opinion that Mr Grime was a fraud and got videoed being one LOL 8((()*/
as someone else said, not in his career interest to do anything of the kind, if you think about it
Where did I say Grime was a f.... and got videoed being one?
Levy did the video, not Grime 8-)(--)
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Redblossom on April 23, 2013, 09:44:36 PM
Mr Grime says that it is Eddie's job to react to both cadaver and blood.
**** so no need for keela then, make your mind up
My ignore thing didnt work,must retry,bye debunker
Oops i added you as buddy instead thats why lol
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: AnneGuedes on April 23, 2013, 09:46:46 PM
I said that an alert from Eddie alone can never INDICATE cadaver cadaver odor.
You misinterpreted this as me saying that Eddie alerts alone this can never BE cadaver odor.
An alert from Eddie shows is that it could be dried blood or cadaver odor (or an error). As blood is many thousands of times more likely to be found, a sigle alert cannot INDICATE cadaver odor as it is far more likely to be a cut finger or shaving nick. If Keela fails to react, this tends to indicate cadaver odor (or an error) but not blood.
I misinterpreted too, just like Redblossom. I'm rather relieved not to be alone since you questioned my skills in English.
Neither of us misunderstood really. DB is definitely to trying to play up the idea that Eddie alerts to blood more than cadaver odour from a dead body remnant scent. That much is obvious. Eddie when tested with cadaver odour alone and not blood, alerted to it, therefore his alone alert does prove its cadaver odour. The way this is being posited is that Keela has to prove eddies alerts are not to cadaver odour, if she alerts in the same place, doubt is put there what the alert was to, when its a fact keela is brought in to find forensics, in the absence of a body, via blood, not play a game of dice if Eddie alerted to cadaver or blood from a living person. If Eddies job was to react to both cadaver and blood, Keelas job would be redundant!
So the question DB is now, why have a blood dog working in tandem with a cadaver dog that alerts to blood? >@@(*&)
You answered, Redblossom, brilliant !
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 23, 2013, 09:46:54 PM
Also, I think Grime lied outright about Eddie's alleged training in America.
Do you agree with this, Debunker ?
I don't know.
What did he say? When? In what context?
In Britain, it is outlawed as illegal and unethical to use human body parts to train cadaver dogs.
1. Given that, and given, also, that we have a tried and trusted alternative method of training dogs using swine cadavers and swine cadaver scent, why would we indulge both the expense and hypocrisy of sending dogs to America to be trained in ways outlawed and deemed unethical here?
If we are going to indulge that expense and hypocrisy, why ever on a dog (at the time Eddie is supposed to have gone) about 18 months from retirement?
2. An answer to an FOI question I have submitted cited parts from a personal development review for Grime which appeared to indicate the dog had received this training. A report from the US that would confirm it was described as "pending"
I submitted a follow-up question asking whether this report was ever received. They answered. It never was. As they put it, there is no information held.
3 In answer to a more general question about Eddie's training put by someone else, SYP said Eddie's training was (sic) in accordance with standard ACPO guidelines, which say nothing about sending dogs to America to be trained on human cadavers, because it is illegal here (etc) ... A link was given to the ACPO dog training manual ...
Another discrepancy of Grime's is that he claims Eddie was involved in over 200 cases.
SYP say just 37.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 23, 2013, 09:49:35 PM
I said that an alert from Eddie alone can never INDICATE cadaver cadaver odor.
You misinterpreted this as me saying that Eddie alerts alone this can never BE cadaver odor.
An alert from Eddie shows is that it could be dried blood or cadaver odor (or an error). As blood is many thousands of times more likely to be found, a sigle alert cannot INDICATE cadaver odor as it is far more likely to be a cut finger or shaving nick. If Keela fails to react, this tends to indicate cadaver odor (or an error) but not blood.
I misinterpreted too, just like Redblossom. I'm rather relieved not to be alone since you questioned my skills in English.
Neither of us misunderstood really. DB is definitely to trying to play up the idea that Eddie alerts to blood more than cadaver odour from a dead body remnant scent. That much is obvious. Eddie when tested with cadaver odour alone and not blood, alerted to it, therefore his alone alert does prove its cadaver odour. The way this is being posited is that Keela has to prove eddies alerts are not to cadaver odour, if she alerts in the same place, doubt is put there what the alert was to, when its a fact keela is brought in to find forensics, in the absence of a body, via blood, not play a game of dice if Eddie alerted to cadaver or blood from a living person. If Eddies job was to react to both cadaver and blood, Keelas job would be redundant!
So the question DB is now, why have a blood dog working in tandem with a cadaver dog that alerts to blood? >@@(*&)
You answered, Redblossom, brilliant !
IT goes like this.
EDdie r reacts to blood or cadaver (Mr Grime states so) Keela does not react to cadaver so if she does not alert, then cadaver is a reasonable inference; if she does react it makes it most likely that it is blood.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Redblossom on April 23, 2013, 09:50:07 PM
I said that an alert from Eddie alone can never INDICATE cadaver cadaver odor.
You misinterpreted this as me saying that Eddie alerts alone this can never BE cadaver odor.
An alert from Eddie shows is that it could be dried blood or cadaver odor (or an error). As blood is many thousands of times more likely to be found, a sigle alert cannot INDICATE cadaver odor as it is far more likely to be a cut finger or shaving nick. If Keela fails to react, this tends to indicate cadaver odor (or an error) but not blood.
I misinterpreted too, just like Redblossom. I'm rather relieved not to be alone since you questioned my skills in English.
Neither of us misunderstood really. DB is definitely to trying to play up the idea that Eddie alerts to blood more than cadaver odour from a dead body remnant scent. That much is obvious. Eddie when tested with cadaver odour alone and not blood, alerted to it, therefore his alone alert does prove its cadaver odour. The way this is being posited is that Keela has to prove eddies alerts are not to cadaver odour, if she alerts in the same place, doubt is put there what the alert was to, when its a fact keela is brought in to find forensics, in the absence of a body, via blood, not play a game of dice if Eddie alerted to cadaver or blood from a living person. If Eddies job was to react to both cadaver and blood, Keelas job would be redundant!
So the question DB is now, why have a blood dog working in tandem with a cadaver dog that alerts to blood? >@@(*&)
You answered, Redblossom, brilliant !
I am glad you understood what I was trying to say Anne. Thank you.And I hope others did too.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: ferryman on April 23, 2013, 09:53:24 PM
Also, I think Grime lied outright about Eddie's alleged training in America.
Do you agree with this, Debunker ?
I don't know.
What did he say? When? In what context?
In Britain, it is outlawed as illegal and unethical to use human body parts to train cadaver dogs.
1. Given that, and given, also, that we have a tried and trusted alternative method of training dogs using swine cadavers and swine cadaver scent, why would we indulge both the expense and hypocrisy of sending dogs to America to be trained in ways outlawed and deemed unethical here?
If we are going to indulge that expense and hypocrisy, why ever on a dog (at the time Eddie is supposed to have gone) about 18 months from retirement?
2. An answer to an FOI question I have submitted cited parts from a personal development review for Grime which appeared to indicate the dog had received this training. A report from the US that would confirm it was described as "pending"
I submitted a follow-up question asking whether this report was ever received. They answered. It never was. As they put it, there is no information held.
3 In answer to a more general question about Eddie's training put by someone else, SYP said Eddie's training was (sic) in accordance with standard ACPO guidelines, which say nothing about sending dogs to America to be trained on human cadavers, because it is illegal here (etc) ... A link was given to the ACPO dog training manual ...
Another discrepancy of Grime's is that he claims Eddie was involved in over 200 cases.
SYP say just 37.
Mr Grime does not list 200 cases. He says that in over 200 trials (I assume during trainingsessions) Eddie did not alert top park or other foodstuffs. Many people think thatthis means that in 200 trials he was never wrong about cadaver- not what wassaid.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Redblossom on April 23, 2013, 09:55:22 PM
Also, I think Grime lied outright about Eddie's alleged training in America.
Do you agree with this, Debunker ?
I don't know.
What did he say? When? In what context?
In Britain, it is outlawed as illegal and unethical to use human body parts to train cadaver dogs.
1. Given that, and given, also, that we have a tried and trusted alternative method of training dogs using swine cadavers and swine cadaver scent, why would we indulge both the expense and hypocrisy of sending dogs to America to be trained in ways outlawed and deemed unethical here?
If we are going to indulge that expense and hypocrisy, why ever on a dog (at the time Eddie is supposed to have gone) about 18 months from retirement?
2. An answer to an FOI question I have submitted cited parts from a personal development review for Grime which appeared to indicate the dog had received this training. A report from the US that would confirm it was described as "pending"
I submitted a follow-up question asking whether this report was ever received. They answered. It never was. As they put it, there is no information held.
3 In answer to a more general question about Eddie's training put by someone else, SYP said Eddie's training was (sic) in accordance with standard ACPO guidelines, which say nothing about sending dogs to America to be trained on human cadavers, because it is illegal here (etc) ... A link was given to the ACPO dog training manual ...
Another discrepancy of Grime's is that he claims Eddie was involved in over 200 cases.
SYP say just 37.
Illegal in this country but not illegal in the usa and not illegal to a dog handler to train his dogs abroad either...cite any law that says a british dog cannot train on human cadavers abroad
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: ferryman on April 23, 2013, 09:58:27 PM
Mr Grime says that it is Eddie's job to react to both cadaver and blood.
**** so no need for keela then, make your mind up
My ignore thing didnt work,must retry,bye debunker
Oops i added you as buddy instead thats why lol
I've never found evidence before PdL that Eddie and Keela were deployed together.
Keela would come into her own right for crimes where there is no murder, but culprits (of crimes other than murder) can be identified from findings of blood.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 23, 2013, 09:58:35 PM
Also, I think Grime lied outright about Eddie's alleged training in America.
Do you agree with this, Debunker ?
I don't know.
What did he say? When? In what context?
In Britain, it is outlawed as illegal and unethical to use human body parts to train cadaver dogs.
1. Given that, and given, also, that we have a tried and trusted alternative method of training dogs using swine cadavers and swine cadaver scent, why would we indulge both the expense and hypocrisy of sending dogs to America to be trained in ways outlawed and deemed unethical here?
If we are going to indulge that expense and hypocrisy, why ever on a dog (at the time Eddie is supposed to have gone) about 18 months from retirement?
2. An answer to an FOI question I have submitted cited parts from a personal development review for Grime which appeared to indicate the dog had received this training. A report from the US that would confirm it was described as "pending"
I submitted a follow-up question asking whether this report was ever received. They answered. It never was. As they put it, there is no information held.
3 In answer to a more general question about Eddie's training put by someone else, SYP said Eddie's training was (sic) in accordance with standard ACPO guidelines, which say nothing about sending dogs to America to be trained on human cadavers, because it is illegal here (etc) ... A link was given to the ACPO dog training manual ...
Another discrepancy of Grime's is that he claims Eddie was involved in over 200 cases.
SYP say just 37.
Illegal in this country but not illegal in the usa and not illegal to a dog handler to train his dogs abroad either...cite any law that says a british dog cannot train on human cadavers abroad
It seems that this is undecided- insufficient evidence either way.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: AnneGuedes on April 23, 2013, 09:59:11 PM
Folie À deux, if I may ! It was a tense afternoon, but thanks to you, nurse Debunker, I was about to write what Redblossom did, better than I would have. Great day !
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Redblossom on April 23, 2013, 10:01:36 PM
Mr Grime says that it is Eddie's job to react to both cadaver and blood.
**** so no need for keela then, make your mind up
My ignore thing didnt work,must retry,bye debunker
Oops i added you as buddy instead thats why lol
I've never found evidence before PdL that Eddie and Keela were deployed together.
Keela would come into her own right for crimes where there is no murder, but culprits (of crimes other than murder) can be identified from findings of blood.
You are very creative I must say LOL
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: ferryman on April 23, 2013, 10:02:07 PM
If Eddie had been to America his training would not be in accordance with standard ACPO guidelines
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: ferryman on April 23, 2013, 10:03:54 PM
'Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.R.D.) will search for and locate human remains and body fluids including blood in any environment or terrain. The initial training of the dog was conducted using human blood and stil born decomposing piglets. The importance of this is that the dog is introduced to the scent of a decomposing body NOT FOODSTUFF. This ensures that the dog disregards the 'bacon sandwich' and 'kebab' etc that is ever present in the background environment. Therefore the dog would remain efficient searching for a cadaver in a café where the clientele were sat eating bacon sandwiches. He has additionally trained exclusively using human remains in the U.S.A. in association with the F.B.I. The enhanced training of the dog has also involved the use of collection of 'cadaver scent' odor from human corpses using remote technical equipment which does not contact the subject. This method is comparable to the simulation of cross contamination. It does however differ in that the remote scent samples recovery does not involve subject matter and therefore is a 'pure' scent sample. The dog has since initial training gained considerable experience in successfully operationally locating human remains and evidential forensic material.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 23, 2013, 10:09:03 PM
In his legal affidavit Mr Grime states: "The dog has however considerable experience in operational recovery of human remains and evidential forensic material and has trained exclusively using human remains in the U.S.A. in association with the F.B.I. The enhanced training of the dog involves the use of collection of 'Dead body scent' odour from corpses using remote technical equipment which does not contact."
Do you think he is lying in a legal deposition?
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: ferryman on April 23, 2013, 10:12:07 PM
There has to be some reason why SYP have pulled all questions and answers about Eddie. Keela and Grime from their FOI disclosure log ...
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 23, 2013, 10:15:48 PM
Eddie has visited the USA http://dogsdontlie.com/main/2007/09/eddie-the-crime-dog-to-help-in-hunt-for-missing-911-dispatcher/
Yep. Proven and acknowledged.
But without dogs.
He went to discuss Keela, at the time of the trip, a (genuinely) rare dog of her type and the Americans took an interest.
You'll not find any reference to the "enhanced" victim recovery dog status outside Eddie and Grime.
Sorry but that article says
FBI Recruits Expert, K-9 From UK posted September 13, 2007 (here) A dog who is trained to find human remains has been brought in from the United Kingdom to help in the search for Theresa Parker, the Walker County 911 operator who has been missing for almost six months. FBI Regional Director John Parrish said Martin Grimes and his English springer spaniel Eddie are some of the best in the world at finding bodies. Walker County Sheriff Steve Wilson introduced Mr. Grimes and Eddie at a press conference in LaFayette on Thursday afternoon.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: ferryman on April 23, 2013, 10:27:26 PM
Eddie has visited the USA http://dogsdontlie.com/main/2007/09/eddie-the-crime-dog-to-help-in-hunt-for-missing-911-dispatcher/
Yep. Proven and acknowledged.
But without dogs.
He went to discuss Keela, at the time of the trip, a (genuinely) rare dog of her type and the Americans took an interest.
You'll not find any reference to the "enhanced" victim recovery dog status outside Eddie and Grime.
Sorry but that article says
FBI Recruits Expert, K-9 From UK posted September 13, 2007 (here) A dog who is trained to find human remains has been brought in from the United Kingdom to help in the search for Theresa Parker, the Walker County 911 operator who has been missing for almost six months. FBI Regional Director John Parrish said Martin Grimes and his English springer spaniel Eddie are some of the best in the world at finding bodies. Walker County Sheriff Steve Wilson introduced Mr. Grimes and Eddie at a press conference in LaFayette on Thursday afternoon.
You had the wrong report. I've given the correct one in an edit to my last post.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Redblossom on April 23, 2013, 10:28:10 PM
Eddie has visited the USA http://dogsdontlie.com/main/2007/09/eddie-the-crime-dog-to-help-in-hunt-for-missing-911-dispatcher/
Yep. Proven and acknowledged.
But without dogs.
He went to discuss Keela, at the time of the trip, a (genuinely) rare dog of her type and the Americans took an interest.
You'll not find any reference to the "enhanced" victim recovery dog status outside Eddie and Grime.
oh dear, that link was to mr grime being called to the usa to help in the case of missing theresa parker where he went with his dogs, so YES WITH dogs and said dog alerted to cadaver odour, said man is in prison, and mrs parkers remains were found
Still, Mr Grime went to the USA before that to enhance his dog training on human cadavers
link also puts paid go those ignorants that say Mr Grime never worked again after PDL because he wasnt licenced and his dogs were only security dogs, well he both worked in the UK Ireland and other countries after leaving the SYP and successfully and to date so there was no issue ever about his licence
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 23, 2013, 10:30:24 PM
Eddie has visited the USA http://dogsdontlie.com/main/2007/09/eddie-the-crime-dog-to-help-in-hunt-for-missing-911-dispatcher/
Yep. Proven and acknowledged.
But without dogs.
He went to discuss Keela, at the time of the trip, a (genuinely) rare dog of her type and the Americans took an interest.
You'll not find any reference to the "enhanced" victim recovery dog status outside Eddie and Grime.
Sorry but that article says
FBI Recruits Expert, K-9 From UK posted September 13, 2007 (here) A dog who is trained to find human remains has been brought in from the United Kingdom to help in the search for Theresa Parker, the Walker County 911 operator who has been missing for almost six months. FBI Regional Director John Parrish said Martin Grimes and his English springer spaniel Eddie are some of the best in the world at finding bodies. Walker County Sheriff Steve Wilson introduced Mr. Grimes and Eddie at a press conference in LaFayette on Thursday afternoon.
You had the wrong report. I've given the correct one in an edit to my last post.
How is it wrong? How do you reach the conclusion that it is wrong?
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: ferryman on April 23, 2013, 10:36:52 PM
Eddie has visited the USA http://dogsdontlie.com/main/2007/09/eddie-the-crime-dog-to-help-in-hunt-for-missing-911-dispatcher/
Yep. Proven and acknowledged.
But without dogs.
He went to discuss Keela, at the time of the trip, a (genuinely) rare dog of her type and the Americans took an interest.
You'll not find any reference to the "enhanced" victim recovery dog status outside Eddie and Grime.
Sorry but that article says
FBI Recruits Expert, K-9 From UK posted September 13, 2007 (here) A dog who is trained to find human remains has been brought in from the United Kingdom to help in the search for Theresa Parker, the Walker County 911 operator who has been missing for almost six months. FBI Regional Director John Parrish said Martin Grimes and his English springer spaniel Eddie are some of the best in the world at finding bodies. Walker County Sheriff Steve Wilson introduced Mr. Grimes and Eddie at a press conference in LaFayette on Thursday afternoon.
You had the wrong report. I've given the correct one in an edit to my last post.
How is it wrong? How do you reach the conclusion that it is wrong?
Grime went to America in 2006 as an employee of SYP and on SYP business to discuss Keela.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Redblossom on April 23, 2013, 10:41:23 PM
If Eddie had been to America his training would not be in accordance with standard ACPO guidelines
Didn't Eddie belong to The Yorkshire Police? They surely wouldn't have paid for him to go to America.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: AnneGuedes on April 23, 2013, 10:42:25 PM
Eddie was a very special dog, we have to admit it. I'm not implying that he found what happened to Madeleine, but domestic accidents are not at all rare. Spend a night in a children hospital emergency service and you'll be convinced. I've no doubt the McCanns are good parents and love their children. I don't find it fair neither to hate or to protect them. A mistake was done, nobody's perfect. But guilt overwhelmed everything. Or bad shame if you prefer. I wish the situation could be, if not cleared up, at least made acceptable. Because there are twins at stake. I'm worried thinking that sooner or later they'll surf on the web.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 23, 2013, 10:42:40 PM
He may have gone to discuss Keela then, but the article is quite clear that Grime andEddie were in Lafayette together.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: ferryman on April 23, 2013, 10:43:36 PM
Ferryman, Grime also took Eddie to America to help locate Theresa Parker's remains.
Yes, yes. But that was when he was freelance (from memory) after PdL'
Here is the report I am referring to:
Keela's Nose Makes Her Top Dog Sky News
11:52am UK, Friday December 30, 2005
Keela is a top dog in the police world, earning more in a day than her force's Chief Constable by working on some of the country's highest-profile crimes.
The pride of South Yorkshire
The 16-month-old springer spaniel can sniff out the smallest samples of human blood - even after items have been cleaned or washed many times.
The South Yorkshire Police dog has already helped forces across the country, including working on the stabbing of Abigail Witchalls in Surrey.
Her going rate is £530 per day, plus expenses.
If she worked every day of the year, she would earn almost £200,000 - around £70,000 more than her force's Chief Constable.
In the New Year, Keela will be travelling to America to assist the FBI with two murder inquiries.
A South Yorkshire force spokeswoman said the crime scene investigation dog has saved more then £200,000 nationally since April this year, helping with investigations in Ireland, Cornwall, Wiltshire, Surrey and the Thames Valley areas.
Her handler, PC Martin Grime, has been responsible for training Keela, along with National Search Adviser Mark Harrison, since June last year.
Unlike ordinary police dogs, Keela has never taken part in the usual six-week training course but has been trained, bit by bit, by PC Grime every day.
Her programme involved training her to ignore decomposing body materials other than human blood.
Instead of barking when she smells blood, she has been trained to have a "passive" alert - freezing with her nose as near to the subject matter as possible without touching, to enable scientists to recover the sample quickly and efficiently.
This technique has saved time and money on major investigations.
South Yorkshire Chief Constable Meredydd Hughes said: "Keela's training gives the force an edge when it comes to forensic investigation, which we should recognise and use more often.
"We know we have an operationally excellent dog section, and our specialist dogs are being developed in a unique way."
In fact, Grime didn't take any dogs with him on that trip ...
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 23, 2013, 10:44:50 PM
This article also mentions Eddie being in th US http://www.scentevidence.com/2009/07/dog-debate-at-center-of-murder-case.html
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: ferryman on April 23, 2013, 10:50:19 PM
This article also mentions Eddie being in th US http://www.scentevidence.com/2009/07/dog-debate-at-center-of-murder-case.html
That is the Theressa Parker case after Grime was solo.
As police dogs, I don't believe Eddie and Keela ever worked together.
They did in pdl so where does that leave your post that they never worked together, they also worked together in Jersey
Unchallenged.
There is no evidence they worked together as police dogs.
What kind of poppycock is this?
Worked together in pdl and jersey, we know because both cases were public, we dont know about other casesbecause they were not, perhaps you can put forward what your argument is about them working or not working together and why it matters or not
OH BTW the south yorkshire police hosted a blog about the dogs, for kids, and init were instances where keela went to work with eddie, i know where to find it, you do the donkey work for yourself 8((()*/
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 23, 2013, 11:13:53 PM
Also, I think Grime lied outright about Eddie's alleged training in America.
EIther you are confused or changing your story. You seemed to imply at one point that Grime never took Eddie to the States.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: ferryman on April 23, 2013, 11:19:01 PM
There is confusion, certainly, but not on my part.
My next post made crystal clear what I was talking about:
In Britain, it is outlawed as illegal and unethical to use human body parts to train cadaver dogs.
1. Given that, and given, also, that we have a tried and trusted alternative method of training dogs using swine cadavers and swine cadaver scent, why would we indulge both the expense and hypocrisy of sending dogs to America to be trained in ways outlawed and deemed unethical here?
If we are going to indulge that expense and hypocrisy, why ever on a dog (at the time Eddie is supposed to have gone) about 18 months from retirement?
2. An answer to an FOI question I have submitted cited parts from a personal development review for Grime which appeared to indicate the dog had received this training. A report from the US that would confirm it was described as "pending"
I submitted a follow-up question asking whether this report was ever received. They answered. It never was. As they put it, there is no information held.
3 In answer to a more general question about Eddie's training put by someone else, SYP said Eddie's training was (sic) in accordance with standard ACPO guidelines, which say nothing about sending dogs to America to be trained on human cadavers, because it is illegal here (etc) ... A link was given to the ACPO dog training manual ...
Another discrepancy of Grime's is that he claims Eddie was involved in over 200 cases.
SYP say just 37.
Explain in what sense that leaves any room for doubt that I am talking about training in America?
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Redblossom on April 24, 2013, 12:04:13 AM
until someone gives a logical explanation for the cadaver dog alerts i will never stop wondering, problem is, no one cant
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: AnneGuedes on April 24, 2013, 12:12:01 AM
until someone gives a logical explanation for the cadaver dog alerts i will never stop wondering, problem is, no one cant
Then it's going to be tough, thus not boring ! Redblossom, no one is so deaf as those who refuse to hear. Il n'est pire sourd que celui qui ne veut pas entendre.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: registrar on April 24, 2013, 12:20:52 AM
until someone gives a logical explanation for the cadaver dog alerts i will never stop wondering, problem is, no one cant
Ah you are after finality of reason - why didn't you say so earlier?
Alas, us armchair detectives know nothing at all about nowt but here are a few possible scenarios:
a) the dogs alerted to cadaverine and/or blood from Madeleine - the FSS just failed to back this up with pesky science
b) the dogs alerted to cadaverine and/or blood - because Grime&Levy knew a big pay day was heading their way and primed McCann specific items accordingly
c)The dogs didn't alert to cadaverine and/or blood but the FSS was equally useless to spot this
d) the dogs were disorientated in a different climate - with different fauna and flora around them - they barked at owt that moved or didn't move - to get their treat
e) the handler's bearing/state of mind cued the dogs to react falsely
f) everyone's in on 'IT' Bilderberger/Masons/the Jesuits blah blah
I could go on and on with dozens of permutations of the above - but some of us have jobs to go to
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: John on April 24, 2013, 02:16:53 AM
In the full length garage film, the Scenic was in which checking position ?
Why does that matter. What maters is that Mr Grime knew which was the McCann's vehicle, called Eddie back nine times (compared with once OK r twice for other vehicles) and pressured Eddie to react, spending five times longer at that car before a reaction than with any other car.
Andthen all it showed was that there was blood in the vehicle- Gerry's blood was recovered from the key fob in the vehicle.
I found the whole cadaver dog exercise in the underground car park appalling. The way he encouraged the dog back time and time again was pathetic. He actually called the dog away from another vehicle he was showing an interest in.
And as for doing alert tests in an apartment weeks after the disappearance when it had subsequently been rented out on no less than four occasions is bizarre. What exactly were they hoping to establish for heavens sake?
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: John on April 24, 2013, 02:57:36 AM
So who died half way up the wall, in the garage the cars were being checked in? 5 times Eddie ran away from Grime woofing at the wall.
Good point DCI,I wondered that myself? 8-)(--)
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Chinagirl on April 24, 2013, 06:19:46 AM
I found the whole cadaver dog exercise in the underground car park appalling. The way he encouraged the dog back time and time again was pathetic. He actually called the dog away from another vehicle he was showing an interest in.
And as for doing alert tests in an apartment weeks after the disappearance when it had subsequently been rented out on no less than four occasions is bizarre. What exactly were they hoping to establish for heavens sake?
This is the most important comment in the entire thread. The fact that the apartment in question had been re-let several times, and must have had any number of people traipsing through it - cleaners, workmen, agents, etc. in the months since it was used by the McCanns, and had not been preserved as a crime scene, renders any discussion about what the dogs alerted to completely pointless. Both dogs may well have reacted to what they were trained for, but it is impossible to attach such alerts specifically to the McCanns, given any number of other people who had access to the apartment after them.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Eleanor on April 24, 2013, 10:44:41 AM
The whole thing looked as though they really weren't interested in anyone else at all. And wasn't one of these videos on The Net long before The Files were released? I seem to remember the dogs' reactions being discussed on The Mirror Forum before the Christmas of 2007.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Carana on April 24, 2013, 10:46:33 AM
Well, I can see that it was worth searching, but the dog is just an asset to help find physical evidence. If she HAD died in the vicinity, then it would have brought closure (whoever was responsible). But nothing was found.
I know that some won't agree, but I feel that too much importance has been placed on anecdotal evidence of occasions when it turned out that a dog had correctly alerted in the absence of any physical evidence. There may well be examples, but the odd instance doesn't justify the total belief that it is always the case (nor even that it is a frequent occurrence).
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Angelo222 on April 24, 2013, 01:03:27 PM
I found the whole cadaver dog exercise in the underground car park appalling. The way he encouraged the dog back time and time again was pathetic. He actually called the dog away from another vehicle he was showing an interest in.
And as for doing alert tests in an apartment weeks after the disappearance when it had subsequently been rented out on no less than four occasions is bizarre. What exactly were they hoping to establish for heavens sake?
This is the most important comment in the entire thread. The fact that the apartment in question had been re-let several times, and must have had any number of people traipsing through it - cleaners, workmen, agents, etc. in the months since it was used by the McCanns, and had not been preserved as a crime scene, renders any discussion about what the dogs alerted to completely pointless. Both dogs may well have reacted to what they were trained for, but it is impossible to attach such alerts specifically to the McCanns, given any number of other people who had access to the apartment after them.
Not only that but what about all the cops, forensics people and TV crews which had been in it as well since the McCann's left? Do the Portuguese police know the meaning of the words "protecting the crime scene"??
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: ferryman on April 24, 2013, 02:32:30 PM
Well, I can see that it was worth searching, but the dog is just an asset to help find physical evidence. If she HAD died in the vicinity, then it would have brought closure (whoever was responsible). But nothing was found.
I know that some won't agree, but I feel that too much importance has been placed on anecdotal evidence of occasions when it turned out that a dog had correctly alerted in the absence of any physical evidence. There may well be examples, but the odd instance doesn't justify the total belief that it is always the case (nor even that it is a frequent occurrence).
Just to clarify, do you mean a search for a body, failing which (we know one wasn't found!) a discreet veil should have been drawn over the cadaver dog deployment exercise, and no more said about it?
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Carana on April 24, 2013, 05:38:01 PM
Well, I can see that it was worth searching, but the dog is just an asset to help find physical evidence. If she HAD died in the vicinity, then it would have brought closure (whoever was responsible). But nothing was found.
I know that some won't agree, but I feel that too much importance has been placed on anecdotal evidence of occasions when it turned out that a dog had correctly alerted in the absence of any physical evidence. There may well be examples, but the odd instance doesn't justify the total belief that it is always the case (nor even that it is a frequent occurrence).
Just to clarify, do you mean a search for a body, failing which (we know one wasn't found!) a discreet veil should have been drawn over the cadaver dog deployment exercise, and no more said about it?
Hmm. Well 5 cases in which Eddie seems to have contributed without finding an actual body in situ.
But there's also this from Harrison's* report, which I've never understood (concerning Keela this time, not Eddie). The most poignant being : When 'Keela' was nine months old she was tasked to search an open fishing boat, contaminated by rotting fish flesh and BLOOD. A missing person was believed to have killed on the boat. The dog located and alerted to a blood sample that was so small that when LOW COPY analysed was reported as being PRIMATE and an uncompleted sample. There are only two scenarios to suit this find. The blood was either human or a gorilla went out in a boat fishing ! !
Should you require further examples or comments, please do not hesitate to contact me.
Mark Harrison
????
Why couldn't the blood be human but unrelated to the victim? People do nick fingers on fishing boats...
* ETA Correction: This anecdotal evidence seems to be from Grime's profile, not from Harrison, as I'd thought.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 24, 2013, 05:57:56 PM
Well, I can see that it was worth searching, but the dog is just an asset to help find physical evidence. If she HAD died in the vicinity, then it would have brought closure (whoever was responsible). But nothing was found.
I know that some won't agree, but I feel that too much importance has been placed on anecdotal evidence of occasions when it turned out that a dog had correctly alerted in the absence of any physical evidence. There may well be examples, but the odd instance doesn't justify the total belief that it is always the case (nor even that it is a frequent occurrence).
Just to clarify, do you mean a search for a body, failing which (we know one wasn't found!) a discreet veil should have been drawn over the cadaver dog deployment exercise, and no more said about it?
Hmm. Well 5 cases in which Eddie seems to have contributed without finding an actual body in situ.
But there's also this from Harrison's report, which I've never understood (concerning Keela this time, not Eddie). The most poignant being : When 'Keela' was nine months old she was tasked to search an open fishing boat, contaminated by rotting fish flesh and BLOOD. A missing person was believed to have killed on the boat. The dog located and alerted to a blood sample that was so small that when LOW COPY analysed was reported as being PRIMATE and an uncompleted sample. There are only two scenarios to suit this find. The blood was either human or a gorilla went out in a boat fishing ! !
Quite!
Should you require further examples or comments, please do not hesitate to contact me.
Mark Harrison
????
Why couldn't the blood be human but unrelated to the victim? People do nick fingers on fishing boats...
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: DCI on April 24, 2013, 06:20:07 PM
I found the whole cadaver dog exercise in the underground car park appalling. The way he encouraged the dog back time and time again was pathetic. He actually called the dog away from another vehicle he was showing an interest in.
And as for doing alert tests in an apartment weeks after the disappearance when it had subsequently been rented out on no less than four occasions is bizarre. What exactly were they hoping to establish for heavens sake?
This is the most important comment in the entire thread. The fact that the apartment in question had been re-let several times, and must have had any number of people traipsing through it - cleaners, workmen, agents, etc. in the months since it was used by the McCanns, and had not been preserved as a crime scene, renders any discussion about what the dogs alerted to completely pointless. Both dogs may well have reacted to what they were trained for, but it is impossible to attach such alerts specifically to the McCanns, given any number of other people who had access to the apartment after them.
Not only that but what about all the cops, forensics people and TV crews which had been in it as well since the McCann's left? Do the Portuguese police know the meaning of the words "protecting the crime scene"??
Nail on the head, Angelo.
Plus the four family's that hired the apartment, after the McCann's left it. So whats the point of any forensics, from 91 days on, after the abduction. None, Zilch, Nada!! All a waste of time and Grime.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Redblossom on April 24, 2013, 06:33:14 PM
If there was NO point sending in the dogs, then you are calling the British authorities fools as well as wasters of time and money. perhaps that includes Gerry Mccann as well who stated it was him would requested these dogs to be brought in.
The other flats were relet as well, so that argument is not too strong. And if , as purported by some, Eddie alerts to all sorts of things, you would think he would alert to all these other things in any one of those other apartments, and Murats villa just as much, if any tom dick or harry could have rented them.
The only comment made today I think, and by Angelo, that furthers the argument that the cadaver dog issue couldbe problematic, is that flat 5a had loads of people trapsing in and out of it, from that night, before police were called, and later on.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: AnneGuedes on April 24, 2013, 07:09:49 PM
The only comment made today I think, and by Angelo, that furthers the argument that the cadaver dog issue couldbe problematic, is that flat 5a had loads of people trapsing in and out of it, from that night, before police were called, and later on.
How ? Imo there weren't so many people entering the flat after the GNR arrived. Do you think one of these people could have "contaminated" the place through his/her clothes ?
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Redblossom on April 24, 2013, 07:15:39 PM
The only comment made today I think, and by Angelo, that furthers the argument that the cadaver dog issue couldbe problematic, is that flat 5a had loads of people trapsing in and out of it, from that night, before police were called, and later on.
How ? Imo there weren't so many people entering the flat after the GNR arrived. Do you think one of these people could have "contaminated" the place through his/her clothes ?
There were, what, a dozen people in there on the night? Plus, I would imagine. Then again, what is there to say a dozen people were not in any of the other flats at any time before August 07 for them to be alert free.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Lace on April 24, 2013, 07:26:35 PM
If there was NO point sending in the dogs, then you are calling the British authorities fools as well as wasters of time and money. perhaps that includes Gerry Mccann as well who stated it was him would requested these dogs to be brought in.
The other flats were relet as well, so that argument is not too strong. And if , as purported by some, Eddie alerts to all sorts of things, you would think he would alert to all these other things in any one of those other apartments, and Murats villa just as much, if any tom dick or harry could have rented them.
The only comment made today I think, and by Angelo, that furthers the argument that the cadaver dog issue couldbe problematic, is that flat 5a had loads of people trapsing in and out of it, from that night, before police were called, and later on.
Eddie alerts to blood as well as cadaver. Do you think it is odd that he didn't alert to the scent of blood in any of the other apartments?
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 24, 2013, 07:28:14 PM
If there was NO point sending in the dogs, then you are calling the British authorities fools as well as wasters of time and money. perhaps that includes Gerry Mccann as well who stated it was him would requested these dogs to be brought in.
The other flats were relet as well, so that argument is not too strong. And if , as purported by some, Eddie alerts to all sorts of things, you would think he would alert to all these other things in any one of those other apartments, and Murats villa just as much, if any tom dick or harry could have rented them.
The only comment made today I think, and by Angelo, that furthers the argument that the cadaver dog issue couldbe problematic, is that flat 5a had loads of people trapsing in and out of it, from that night, before police were called, and later on.
Eddie alerts to blood as well as cadaver. Do you think it is odd that he didn't alert to the scent of blood in any of the other apartments?
Nor did Keela!
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: ferryman on April 24, 2013, 07:35:22 PM
Carana:
But there's also this from Harrison's report, which I've never understood (concerning Keela this time, not Eddie):
The most poignant being : When 'Keela' was nine months old she was tasked to search an open fishing boat, contaminated by rotting fish flesh and BLOOD. A missing person was believed to have killed on the boat. The dog located and alerted to a blood sample that was so small that when LOW COPY analysed was reported as being PRIMATE and an uncompleted sample. There are only two scenarios to suit this find. The blood was either human or a gorilla went out in a boat fishing ! ! Should you require further examples or comments, please do not hesitate to contact me.
Mark Harrison
Now, here's a thing. What's uploaded on line suggests Mark Harrison.
If there was NO point sending in the dogs, then you are calling the British authorities fools as well as wasters of time and money. perhaps that includes Gerry Mccann as well who stated it was him would requested these dogs to be brought in.
The other flats were relet as well, so that argument is not too strong. And if , as purported by some, Eddie alerts to all sorts of things, you would think he would alert to all these other things in any one of those other apartments, and Murats villa just as much, if any tom dick or harry could have rented them.
The only comment made today I think, and by Angelo, that furthers the argument that the cadaver dog issue couldbe problematic, is that flat 5a had loads of people trapsing in and out of it, from that night, before police were called, and later on.
There would have been a point in sending Eddie: ruling out that there was a body to find.
But that was about it ...
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: peter claridge on April 24, 2013, 07:43:19 PM
The defence lawyer said that he wishes the arguido to be asked again if Madeleine bled. To which he said it was common for Madeleine to have nosebleeds. He says that he doesn’t know if in fact his daughter bled while on holiday in Portugal, because he does not want to be influenced by the news in the Press, regarding the detection of human blood in the apartment where his daughter disappeared.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: AnneGuedes on April 24, 2013, 07:44:57 PM
The only comment made today I think, and by Angelo, that furthers the argument that the cadaver dog issue couldbe problematic, is that flat 5a had loads of people trapsing in and out of it, from that night, before police were called, and later on.
How ? Imo there weren't so many people entering the flat after the GNR arrived. Do you think one of these people could have "contaminated" the place through his/her clothes ?
There were, what, a dozen people in there on the night? Plus, I would imagine. Then again, what is there to say a dozen people were not in any of the other flats at any time before August 07 for them to be alert free.
Hi Redblossom ! After the GNR arrived, there was Silvia translating, Fiona, punctually David, Russell and Matt (?) but who else, except for the GNR officers and then their Lagos commandant and then the PJ and the SP. Oh and 1 (may be 2) dogs... Surely the other flats were rented immediately on the 5th, hence had more visitors than the 5A.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Eleanor on April 24, 2013, 07:48:36 PM
The simple fact is that The Dogs produced nothing at all. And certainly nothing fit to be used in a Court of Law. A complete waste of time, in fact. Except for Martin Grime.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Lace on April 24, 2013, 07:48:55 PM
If there was NO point sending in the dogs, then you are calling the British authorities fools as well as wasters of time and money. perhaps that includes Gerry Mccann as well who stated it was him would requested these dogs to be brought in.
The other flats were relet as well, so that argument is not too strong. And if , as purported by some, Eddie alerts to all sorts of things, you would think he would alert to all these other things in any one of those other apartments, and Murats villa just as much, if any tom dick or harry could have rented them.
The only comment made today I think, and by Angelo, that furthers the argument that the cadaver dog issue couldbe problematic, is that flat 5a had loads of people trapsing in and out of it, from that night, before police were called, and later on.
Eddie alerts to blood as well as cadaver. Do you think it is odd that he didn't alert to the scent of blood in any of the other apartments?
Nor did Keela!
So not one spot of blood was found in any other apartment, or Murat's property, by Eddie or Keela.
That is strange.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: ferryman on April 24, 2013, 07:49:23 PM
The defence lawyer said that he wishes the arguido to be asked again if Madeleine bled. To which he said it was common for Madeleine to have nosebleeds. He says that he doesn’t know if in fact his daughter bled while on holiday in Portugal, because he does not want to be influenced by the news in the Press, regarding the detection of human blood in the apartment where his daughter disappeared.
Ah, well, we know Paul Anthony Gordon bled ...
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Redblossom on April 24, 2013, 07:51:06 PM
If there was NO point sending in the dogs, then you are calling the British authorities fools as well as wasters of time and money. perhaps that includes Gerry Mccann as well who stated it was him would requested these dogs to be brought in.
The other flats were relet as well, so that argument is not too strong. And if , as purported by some, Eddie alerts to all sorts of things, you would think he would alert to all these other things in any one of those other apartments, and Murats villa just as much, if any tom dick or harry could have rented them.
The only comment made today I think, and by Angelo, that furthers the argument that the cadaver dog issue couldbe problematic, is that flat 5a had loads of people trapsing in and out of it, from that night, before police were called, and later on.
There would have been a point in sending Eddie: ruling out that there was a body to find.
But that was about it ...
You are too funny sometimes, OBVIOUSLY there was no body in 5a, so.......they sent Eddie in for a different reason
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: ferryman on April 24, 2013, 07:51:39 PM
The simple fact is that The Dogs produced nothing at all. And certainly nothing fit to be used in a Court of Law. A complete waste of time, in fact. Except for Martin Grime.
Lucrative for him.
At least in the short term ...
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Redblossom on April 24, 2013, 07:59:06 PM
The simple fact is that The Dogs produced nothing at all. And certainly nothing fit to be used in a Court of Law. A complete waste of time, in fact. Except for Martin Grime.
Lucrative for him.
At least in the short term ...
i think the police on a massive child abuse and suspected multiple murder case would have been the arbiters of how long to keep him on, therefore the only ones paying him for his months of work
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Carana on April 24, 2013, 08:43:19 PM
But there's also this from Harrison's report, which I've never understood (concerning Keela this time, not Eddie):
The most poignant being : When 'Keela' was nine months old she was tasked to search an open fishing boat, contaminated by rotting fish flesh and BLOOD. A missing person was believed to have killed on the boat. The dog located and alerted to a blood sample that was so small that when LOW COPY analysed was reported as being PRIMATE and an uncompleted sample. There are only two scenarios to suit this find. The blood was either human or a gorilla went out in a boat fishing ! ! Should you require further examples or comments, please do not hesitate to contact me.
Mark Harrison
Now, here's a thing. What's uploaded on line suggests Mark Harrison.
But there's also this from Harrison's report, which I've never understood (concerning Keela this time, not Eddie):
The most poignant being : When 'Keela' was nine months old she was tasked to search an open fishing boat, contaminated by rotting fish flesh and BLOOD. A missing person was believed to have killed on the boat. The dog located and alerted to a blood sample that was so small that when LOW COPY analysed was reported as being PRIMATE and an uncompleted sample. There are only two scenarios to suit this find. The blood was either human or a gorilla went out in a boat fishing ! ! Should you require further examples or comments, please do not hesitate to contact me.
Mark Harrison
Now, here's a thing. What's uploaded on line suggests Mark Harrison.
The defence lawyer said that he wishes the arguido to be asked again if Madeleine bled. To which he said it was common for Madeleine to have nosebleeds. He says that he doesn’t know if in fact his daughter bled while on holiday in Portugal, because he does not want to be influenced by the news in the Press, regarding the detection of human blood in the apartment where his daughter disappeared.
Ah, well, we know Paul Anthony Gordon bled ...
Ah, well, but Gerald wants to give us an excuse for why Madeleine's blood may have been found in the apartment. Also, don't you think it's a tad remiss of the McCann's to leave their sleepwalking daughter that suffered with nosebleeds in an unlocked apartment...
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: DCI on April 24, 2013, 11:03:01 PM
The defence lawyer said that he wishes the arguido to be asked again if Madeleine bled. To which he said it was common for Madeleine to have nosebleeds. He says that he doesn’t know if in fact his daughter bled while on holiday in Portugal, because he does not want to be influenced by the news in the Press, regarding the detection of human blood in the apartment where his daughter disappeared.
Ah, well, we know Paul Anthony Gordon bled ...
Ah, well, but Gerald wants to give us an excuse for why Madeleine's blood may have been found in the apartment. Also, don't you think it's a tad remiss of the McCann's to leave their sleepwalking daughter that suffered with nosebleeds in an unlocked apartment...
My god, where do you find this rubbish? Do you have proof she was a sleep walker, or suffered with nosebleeds?
Madeleine could have bled from a cut on her leg. She tripped up the plane steps, when boarding.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Eleanor on April 24, 2013, 11:13:57 PM
The defence lawyer said that he wishes the arguido to be asked again if Madeleine bled. To which he said it was common for Madeleine to have nosebleeds. He says that he doesn’t know if in fact his daughter bled while on holiday in Portugal, because he does not want to be influenced by the news in the Press, regarding the detection of human blood in the apartment where his daughter disappeared.
Ah, well, we know Paul Anthony Gordon bled ...
Ah, well, but Gerald wants to give us an excuse for why Madeleine's blood may have been found in the apartment. Also, don't you think it's a tad remiss of the McCann's to leave their sleepwalking daughter that suffered with nosebleeds in an unlocked apartment...
My god, where do you find this rubbish? Do you have proof she was a sleep walker, or suffered with nosebleeds?
Madeleine could have bled from a cut on her leg. She tripped up the plane steps, when boarding.
There they go again. More utter rubbish.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: registrar on April 24, 2013, 11:21:06 PM
The defence lawyer said that he wishes the arguido to be asked again if Madeleine bled. To which he said it was common for Madeleine to have nosebleeds. He says that he doesn’t know if in fact his daughter bled while on holiday in Portugal, because he does not want to be influenced by the news in the Press, regarding the detection of human blood in the apartment where his daughter disappeared.
Ah, well, we know Paul Anthony Gordon bled ...
Ah, well, but Gerald wants to give us an excuse for why Madeleine's blood may have been found in the apartment. Also, don't you think it's a tad remiss of the McCann's to leave their sleepwalking daughter that suffered with nosebleeds in an unlocked apartment...
My god, where do you find this rubbish? Do you have proof she was a sleep walker, or suffered with nosebleeds?
Madeleine could have bled from a cut on her leg. She tripped up the plane steps, when boarding.
There they go again. More utter rubbish.
quite
- hark! - the sound of scraping the bottom of a barrel of Port
It'll be blue bags and fridges again next - these things tend to come round in cycles
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: DCI on April 24, 2013, 11:21:52 PM
The defence lawyer said that he wishes the arguido to be asked again if Madeleine bled. To which he said it was common for Madeleine to have nosebleeds. He says that he doesn’t know if in fact his daughter bled while on holiday in Portugal, because he does not want to be influenced by the news in the Press, regarding the detection of human blood in the apartment where his daughter disappeared.
Ah, well, we know Paul Anthony Gordon bled ...
Ah, well, but Gerald wants to give us an excuse for why Madeleine's blood may have been found in the apartment. Also, don't you think it's a tad remiss of the McCann's to leave their sleepwalking daughter that suffered with nosebleeds in an unlocked apartment...
My god, where do you find this rubbish? Do you have proof she was a sleep walker, or suffered with nosebleeds?
Madeleine could have bled from a cut on her leg. She tripped up the plane steps, when boarding.
There they go again. More utter rubbish.
Downright disgusting lies, Eleanor. Hope admin are taking note, of these lies ?8)@)-)
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Eleanor on April 24, 2013, 11:49:58 PM
The defence lawyer said that he wishes the arguido to be asked again if Madeleine bled. To which he said it was common for Madeleine to have nosebleeds. He says that he doesn’t know if in fact his daughter bled while on holiday in Portugal, because he does not want to be influenced by the news in the Press, regarding the detection of human blood in the apartment where his daughter disappeared.
Ah, well, we know Paul Anthony Gordon bled ...
Ah, well, but Gerald wants to give us an excuse for why Madeleine's blood may have been found in the apartment. Also, don't you think it's a tad remiss of the McCann's to leave their sleepwalking daughter that suffered with nosebleeds in an unlocked apartment...
My god, where do you find this rubbish? Do you have proof she was a sleep walker, or suffered with nosebleeds?
Madeleine could have bled from a cut on her leg. She tripped up the plane steps, when boarding.
There they go again. More utter rubbish.
Downright disgusting lies, Eleanor. Hope admin are taking note, of these lies ?8)@)-)
Don't worry about Admin, DCI. Never have I seen such an unbiased Forum in all of the six years that I have been at this.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: sadie on April 25, 2013, 12:25:33 AM
Peter keeps doing this.
The worst example of a blatent lie was when he said words like "None of the tapas checked their children and (IIRC) that Jane Tanner didn't see anything". .... he didn't even try and soften the lie at all.
Me too. I hope that admin are watching this guy.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: Eleanor on April 25, 2013, 12:43:30 AM
The worst example of a blatent lie was when he said words like "None of the tapas checked their children and (IIRC) that Jane Tanner didn't see anything". .... he didn't even try and soften the lie at all.
Me too. I hope that admin are watching this guy.
Don't worry about it, Sadie. They know what they are doing. This is what I mean, you see.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: AnneGuedes on April 25, 2013, 01:37:42 AM
The defence lawyer said that he wishes the arguido to be asked again if Madeleine bled. To which he said it was common for Madeleine to have nosebleeds. He says that he doesn’t know if in fact his daughter bled while on holiday in Portugal, because he does not want to be influenced by the news in the Press, regarding the detection of human blood in the apartment where his daughter disappeared.
Ah, well, we know Paul Anthony Gordon bled ...
Ah, well, but Gerald wants to give us an excuse for why Madeleine's blood may have been found in the apartment. Also, don't you think it's a tad remiss of the McCann's to leave their sleepwalking daughter that suffered with nosebleeds in an unlocked apartment...
My god, where do you find this rubbish? Do you have proof she was a sleep walker, or suffered with nosebleeds?
Madeleine could have bled from a cut on her leg. She tripped up the plane steps, when boarding.
There they go again. More utter rubbish.
Paul S., who baptised Madeleine, mentioned sleepwalking, but nobody asked him where he knew it from. Madeleine seemed not to be the sleeping kind anyhow.
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: ferryman on April 25, 2013, 09:55:17 AM
The defence lawyer said that he wishes the arguido to be asked again if Madeleine bled. To which he said it was common for Madeleine to have nosebleeds. He says that he doesn’t know if in fact his daughter bled while on holiday in Portugal, because he does not want to be influenced by the news in the Press, regarding the detection of human blood in the apartment where his daughter disappeared.
Ah, well, we know Paul Anthony Gordon bled ...
Ah, well, but Gerald wants to give us an excuse for why Madeleine's blood may have been found in the apartment. Also, don't you think it's a tad remiss of the McCann's to leave their sleepwalking daughter that suffered with nosebleeds in an unlocked apartment...
If you'd read Kate's book, you'd have known
A. Madeleine never suffered from sleepwalking
B That her (historical) problems of restiveness stemming from colic were well and truly behind her by the time of that holiday.
She was, by then, a sound sleeper ...
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 25, 2013, 10:03:25 AM
The defence lawyer said that he wishes the arguido to be asked again if Madeleine bled. To which he said it was common for Madeleine to have nosebleeds. He says that he doesn’t know if in fact his daughter bled while on holiday in Portugal, because he does not want to be influenced by the news in the Press, regarding the detection of human blood in the apartment where his daughter disappeared.
Ah, well, we know Paul Anthony Gordon bled ...
Ah, well, but Gerald wants to give us an excuse for why Madeleine's blood may have been found in the apartment. Also, don't you think it's a tad remiss of the McCann's to leave their sleepwalking daughter that suffered with nosebleeds in an unlocked apartment...
If you'd read Kate's book, you'd have known
A. Madeleine never suffered from sleepwalking
B That her (historical) problems of restiveness stemming from colic were well and truly behind her by the time of that holiday.
She was, by then, a sound sleeper ...
[[ censored word ]]Stop confusing the issue with facts[/[ censored word ]] @)(++(*
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: DCI on April 25, 2013, 10:05:39 AM
The defence lawyer said that he wishes the arguido to be asked again if Madeleine bled. To which he said it was common for Madeleine to have nosebleeds. He says that he doesn’t know if in fact his daughter bled while on holiday in Portugal, because he does not want to be influenced by the news in the Press, regarding the detection of human blood in the apartment where his daughter disappeared.
Ah, well, we know Paul Anthony Gordon bled ...
Ah, well, but Gerald wants to give us an excuse for why Madeleine's blood may have been found in the apartment. Also, don't you think it's a tad remiss of the McCann's to leave their sleepwalking daughter that suffered with nosebleeds in an unlocked apartment...
If you'd read Kate's book, you'd have known
A. Madeleine never suffered from sleepwalking
B That her (historical) problems of restiveness stemming from colic were well and truly behind her by the time of that holiday.
She was, by then, a sound sleeper ...
Quote
Paul S., who baptised Madeleine, mentioned sleepwalking, but nobody asked him where he knew it from. Madeleine seemed not to be the sleeping kind anyhow.
Nobody asked him, because it was him that said it. What he thought!
Here's another fact Debunker and Ferryman, when telling an untruth, it can't be backed up.
Paul Seddon,
"The first time I heard of Madeleines disappearance was in the early morning of Friday 4th May 2007.
I received a phone call from Linda who told me what had happened, and I immediately sent a text message to Kates mobile, telling her that my prayers were with them. I received a reply almost immediately and I remember Kate wrote that she felt as if the world was about to fall apart. At about 1.30 that morning Kate called me in a state of great agitation. I tried to calm her as well as I could saying that Madeleine could have had a bout of sleepwalking and that she would be all right. I remember that Kate was worried by the fact that Madeleine was wearing short sleeved pyjamas and that she could catch a cold. I felt that only a mother could think like that and say such a thing. I could perceive the trauma that Kate was experiencing from her voice. I led with prayers and other situations in my role as priest. Gerry phoned me on the same night and he also seemed to me to be quite traumatised and at the same time very upset and angry. His Scottish accent, which was normally very slight, became so heavy that his sentences were almost incomprehensible. I spoke to them again the following morning and their state was practically the same."
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: debunker on April 25, 2013, 10:07:51 AM
The defence lawyer said that he wishes the arguido to be asked again if Madeleine bled. To which he said it was common for Madeleine to have nosebleeds. He says that he doesn’t know if in fact his daughter bled while on holiday in Portugal, because he does not want to be influenced by the news in the Press, regarding the detection of human blood in the apartment where his daughter disappeared.
Ah, well, we know Paul Anthony Gordon bled ...
Ah, well, but Gerald wants to give us an excuse for why Madeleine's blood may have been found in the apartment. Also, don't you think it's a tad remiss of the McCann's to leave their sleepwalking daughter that suffered with nosebleeds in an unlocked apartment...
If you'd read Kate's book, you'd have known
A. Madeleine never suffered from sleepwalking
B That her (historical) problems of restiveness stemming from colic were well and truly behind her by the time of that holiday.
She was, by then, a sound sleeper ...
Here's another fact Debunker and Ferryman, when telling an untruth, it can't be backed up.
Paul Seddon,
"The first time I heard of Madeleines disappearance was in the early morning of Friday 4th May 2007.
I received a phone call from Linda who told me what had happened, and I immediately sent a text message to Kates mobile, telling her that my prayers were with them. I received a reply almost immediately and I remember Kate wrote that she felt as if the world was about to fall apart. At about 1.30 that morning Kate called me in a state of great agitation. I tried to calm her as well as I could saying that Madeleine could have had a bout of sleepwalking and that she would be all right. I remember that Kate was worried by the fact that Madeleine was wearing short sleeved pyjamas and that she could catch a cold. I felt that only a mother could think like that and say such a thing. I could perceive the trauma that Kate was experiencing from her voice. I led with prayers and other situations in my role as priest. Gerry phoned me on the same night and he also seemed to me to be quite traumatised and at the same time very upset and angry. His Scottish accent, which was normally very slight, became so heavy that his sentences were almost incomprehensible. I spoke to them again the following morning and their state was practically the same."
What untruth? (Glad you are avoiding the word 'lie')
Title: Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
Post by: ferryman on April 25, 2013, 07:04:04 PM