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Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: G-Unit on February 18, 2021, 01:25:29 PM
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Empathy is something which has been mentioned frequently in connection with this case, with some claiming they have it and accusing others of lacking it.
So what do people think it is, why do people think they possess it and why do they think others lack it?
Renowned psychologists Daniel Goleman and Paul Ekman have identified three types of empathy: Cognitive, Emotional and Compassionate.
Cognitive empathy is described as understanding another's feelings but not sharing them.
Emotional empathy is described as actually feeling another's pain.
Compassionate empathy is described as not only understanding and feeling another's pain, it leads to action too; helping if help is needed.
https://takecasper.com/2020/06/empathy-1/
My opinion is that empathy is a choice. People extend it to those they understand and connect with, but find it much harder to extend it to those they don't understand and connect with.
In the context of this board, feeling all three types of empathy for the McCanns is fairly easy if you accept the facts as they describe them. A nice middle class couple in caring professions had their daughter snatched almost 14 years ago and have never stopped searching for her in hopes that she's still out there somewhere.
It's much more difficult to feel empathy for Goncalo Amaral if you accept the facts as described by the McCanns. He didn't accept those facts and he wrote a book explaining why.
Both the McCanns and Amaral must have suffered, that's beyond doubt imo. Therefore empathy for their feelings must be a matter of choice by observers imo.
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Well, IMO I have empathy for GA as I believe his only interest was to find out what happened to Maddie.
I am a very sympathetic person IRL, yet I can never feel any empathy for the mccs.
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Who do you choose to have empathy for? I find myself often empathising with people who make bad decisions in their lives that weren't borne out of evil or malicious intent. I don't have much empathy for people who deliberately set out to harm others however.
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I reckon I'm at the lower end of cognitive empathy. I don't particularly 'feel' for people in general and certainly not for those I don't know.
I don't see this as a problem - it's just the way it is.
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Who do you choose to have empathy for? I find myself often empathising with people who make bad decisions in their lives that weren't borne out of evil or malicious intent. I don't have much empathy for people who deliberately set out to harm others however.
I don't have much empathy for people who deliberately set out to harm others however.
Well, IMO that is what the mccs did with GA. not only that IIRC wanted him to feel fear as well as making him destitute and take everything he had.
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I don't have much empathy for people who deliberately set out to harm others however.
Well, IMO that is what the mccs did with GA. not only that IIRC wanted him to feel fear as well as making him destitute and take everything he had.
Oh I do have empathy for people who want revenge on those that have attempted to ruin their lives, I would be exactly the same.
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I reckon I'm at the lower end of cognitive empathy. I don't particularly 'feel' for people in general and certainly not for those I don't know.
I don't see this as a problem - it's just the way it is.
This very much comes across in your posts.
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I feel sorry for the McCann's children, on account of them being the McCann's children.
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I feel sorry for the McCann's children, on account of them being the McCann's children.
I feel sorry for you on account of you feeling the need to be a WUM all the time you post on here.
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Oh I do have empathy for people who want revenge on those that have attempted to ruin their lives, I would be exactly the same.
I do have empathy for people who want revenge on those that have attempted to ruin their lives,
What's odd about that though is IIRC kmc forgive the abductor.
Strange when you would think it was the so-called abductor who ruined there lives imo
an as most are thinking could be CB.
HomeNewsUK NewsMadeleine Mccann
Madeleine McCann missing: Kate McCann says she could forgive daughter's abductor
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I do have empathy for people who want revenge on those that have attempted to ruin their lives,
What's odd about that though is IIRC kmc forgive the abductor.
Strange when you would think it was the so-called abductor who ruined there lives imo
an as most are thinking could be CB.
HomeNewsUK NewsMadeleine Mccann
Madeleine McCann missing: Kate McCann says she could forgive daughter's abductor
What a marvelously empathetic woman she is. Maybe she's forgiven Amaral too after all these years, though I don't think I could be that magnanimous personally.
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I do have empathy for people who want revenge on those that have attempted to ruin their lives,
What's odd about that though is IIRC kmc forgive the abductor.
Strange when you would think it was the so-called abductor who ruined there lives imo
an as most are thinking could be CB.
HomeNewsUK NewsMadeleine Mccann
Madeleine McCann missing: Kate McCann says she could forgive daughter's abductor
I really don't understand the need for revenge. I know that it drives & motivates many people but it all seems so petty and pointless to me.
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I really don't understand the need for revenge. I know that it drives & motivates many people but it all seems so petty and pointless to me.
That may be so but then so many emotions could be classed as irrational. If you're not an emotional person and struggle to feel any sort of empathy then what motivates and drives others must be a puzzle.
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I feel sorry for the McCann's children, on account of them being the McCann's children.
Life can be a bit of a bummer sometimes.
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What a marvelously empathetic woman she is. Maybe she's forgiven Amaral too after all these years, though I don't think I could be that magnanimous personally.
What a marvelously empathetic woman she is.
So her empathy can forgive the abductor - at this time most people think could be CB a pedo.
Yet she can not forgive GA, who believes they are involved in what happened to Maddie
In that case then imo GA it seems is the one who has ruined there life.
More than CB the so-called abductor.
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This could be an interesting Thread, if it is dealt with in the manner that I think was intended.
However, if it is going to descend into another McCann Bashing Thread then I will be Deleting.
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What a marvelously empathetic woman she is.
So her empathy can forgive the abductor - at this time most people think could be CB a pedo.
Yet she can not forgive GA, who believes they are involved in what happened to Maddie
In that case then imo GA it seems is the one who has ruined there life.
More than CB the so-called abductor.
When did she say she could not forgive Amaral, and when did she say she could forgive the abductor? My understanding is that the famous comment she made about wanting Amaral to suffer and feel fear was how she felt in the rawness of events of 2007, correct me if I'm wrong? Kate's forgiveness comment was made in 2013 I believe. So six years separates the emotions she was feeling and expressing. And of course there is always the possibility that the forgiveness comment about the abductor was an attempt at reaching out to the abductor himself ("What abductor??" I hear you all shriek in unison) in a vain hope that he may offer himself up for forgiveness and reveal Madeleine's whereabouts.
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This could be an interesting Thread, if it is dealt with in the manner that I think was intended.
However, if it is going to descend into another McCann Bashing Thread then I will be Deleting.
All threads do, so why should this one be any different?
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When did she say she could not forgive Amaral, and when did she say she could forgive the abductor? My understanding is that the famous comment she made about wanting Amaral to suffer and feel fear was how she felt in the rawness of events of 2007, correct me if I'm wrong? Kate's forgiveness comment was made in 2013 I believe. So six years separates the emotions she was feeling and expressing. And of course there is always the possibility that the forgiveness comment about the abductor was an attempt at reaching out to the abductor himself ("What abductor??" I hear you all shriek in unison) in a vain hope that he may offer himself up for forgiveness and reveal Madeleine's whereabouts.
Interesting you believe Kate is quite capable of saying something untrue if it might get her what she wants & also......why are you discriminating against men again?
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This could be an interesting Thread, if it is dealt with in the manner that I think was intended.
However, if it is going to descend into another McCann Bashing Thread then I will be Deleting.
Well, hopefully, it won't be a GA bashing thread either.
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All threads do, so why should this one be any different?
For my own part, I do feel sorry for people who are suffering, but I do not feel their pain. How could I?
Revenge? This is an emotion that I have felt, but it never goes further than feeling a desire for revenge. And it never does any good anyway, mainly because the people who inflict the pain don't have any real idea of what they have done.
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Interesting you believe Kate is quite capable of saying something untrue if it might get her what she wants & also......why are you discriminating against men again?
Watch It.
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Well, hopefully, it won't be a GA bashing thread either.
You were the one who raised the subject of Amaral, on two counts.
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Watch It.
Watch what?
Making an observation?
Opposing Misandry?
Are these things that are punishable under forum rules?
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Watch what?
Making an observation?
Opposing Misandry?
Are these things that are punishable under forum rules?
Not quite, but you are getting there. Any more of it and you will get more Warning Points.
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For my own part, I do feel sorry for people who are suffering, but I do not feel their pain. How could I?
Revenge? This is an emotion that I have felt, but it never goes further than feeling a desire for revenge. And it never does any good anyway, mainly because the people who inflict the pain don't have any real idea of what they have done.
Further I think it’s absolutely possible to feel empathy for individuals while questioning their choices..like a burglary victim who has left their windows open.
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Interesting you believe Kate is quite capable of saying something untrue if it might get her what she wants & also......why are you discriminating against men again?
Interesting that you find anything I have to say interesting. and I'm not discriminating against men, I'm discriminating against women, denying them the right to be thought of as paedo abductors, so sue me EHRC.
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Further I think it’s absolutely possible to feel empathy for individuals while questioning their choices..like a burglary victim who has left their windows open.
I don't question other people's choices. Not my business. And I have made enough bad choices myself. At which point the last thing I need is someone pointing out the obvious.
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If any of you reply to questionable comments then your comment will be deleted along with the questionable comment.
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I don't question other people's choices. Not my business. And I have made enough bad choices myself. At which point the last thing I need is someone pointing out the obvious.
I think we all internally question people’s choices even though we don’t give voice to them. It’s ironic that someone else’s bad choices often helps us make better ones.
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You were the one who raised the subject of Amaral, on two counts.
No, he was mentioned in the opening post -as was the mccs
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Empathy is something which has been mentioned frequently in connection with this case, with some claiming they have it and accusing others of lacking it.
So what do people think it is, why do people think they possess it and why do they think others lack it?
Renowned psychologists Daniel Goleman and Paul Ekman have identified three types of empathy: Cognitive, Emotional and Compassionate.
Cognitive empathy is described as understanding another's feelings but not sharing them.
Emotional empathy is described as actually feeling another's pain.
Compassionate empathy is described as not only understanding and feeling another's pain, it leads to action too; helping if help is needed.
https://takecasper.com/2020/06/empathy-1/
My opinion is that empathy is a choice. People extend it to those they understand and connect with, but find it much harder to extend it to those they don't understand and connect with.
In the context of this board, feeling all three types of empathy for the McCanns is fairly easy if you accept the facts as they describe them. A nice middle class couple in caring professions had their daughter snatched almost 14 years ago and have never stopped searching for her in hopes that she's still out there somewhere.
It's much more difficult to feel empathy for Goncalo Amaral if you accept the facts as described by the McCanns. He didn't accept those facts and he wrote a book explaining why.
Both the McCanns and Amaral must have suffered, that's beyond doubt imo. Therefore empathy for their feelings must be a matter of choice by observers imo.
Why do you think Goncalo Amaral merits empathy in the situation you have described?
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If any of you reply to questionable comments then your comment will be deleted along with the questionable comment.
Why do you think Goncalo Amaral merits empathy in the situation you have described?
Is that a questionable comment what B has just posted?
Like is it ok for me toa say?
Why do you think the mcs merits empathy in the situation you have described?
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Why do you think Goncalo Amaral merits empathy in the situation you have described?
I don't subscribe to selective empathy which is why I have none for any of them.
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I think we all internally question people’s choices even though we don’t give voice to them. It’s ironic that someone else’s bad choices often helps us make better ones.
I left my children alone in similar circumstances so I cannot castigate The McCanns.
No, I wouldn't do it now. But no one is able to keep an eye on children 24/7. And I don't believe them when they say that they do. But that is their problem.
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No, he was mentioned in the opening post -as was the mccs
So this Thread was meant to be contentious right from the word go? This is not good.
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Why do you think Goncalo Amaral merits empathy in the situation you have described?
Is that a questionable comment what B has just posted?
Like is it ok for me toa say?
Why do you think the mcs merits empathy in the situation you have described?
The reason for feeling empathy for one has been stated clearly in the opening post. The reason for empathising with the other has not been stated.
I have asked the thread originator the question, perhaps you will be kind enough to await her reply as I shall.
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So this Thread was meant to be contentious right from the word go? This is not good.
In my opinion, of course it was intended to be contentious unless the author of the OP knows nothing of the history of McCann fora and those who post therein.
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I see a world of difference between keeping an eye on children 24/7 and deliberately leaving them alone by being absent for periods of time.
Without intent to cause harm.
Your comment is Off Topic by the way.
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The reason for feeling empathy for one has been stated clearly in the opening post. The reason for empathising with the other has not been stated.
I have asked the thread originator the question, perhaps you will be kind enough to await her reply as I shall.
, perhaps you will be kind enough to await her reply as I shall.
Well, IMO that could be questionable as to why you think I should not be answering the question. you asked in the post.
By wanting to know if your post was questionable in the first place [phew]
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Without intent to cause harm.
Your comment is Off Topic by the way.
As it was in response to yours, perhaps you should remove them both.
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As it was in response to yours, perhaps you should remove them both.
Mine was in reply to a thoughtful comment by Faithlilly. Yours was not.
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I left my children alone in similar circumstances so I cannot castigate The McCanns.
No, I wouldn't do it now. But no one is able to keep an eye on children 24/7. And I don't believe them when they say that they do. But that is their problem.
I was talking in general but I think it’s true that many have learned from Madeleine’s parent’s mistake.
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You mean your comment wasn't a thoughtful comment ?
That is enough thank you ... please desist from off topic argumentative posts.
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So this Thread was meant to be contentious right from the word go? This is not good.
I don’t think that’s true. I think as it’s a Mccann case forum the examples were the most appropriate.
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So this Thread was meant to be contentious right from the word go? This is not good.
Of course it was, imo.
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What happened to the McCanns certainly made me question sone of my own parenting decisions. Maybe some disasters befalling other families have been averted because of the McCanns own personal tragedy. Has this got anything to do with empathy? Maybe.
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What happened to the McCanns certainly made me question sone of my own parenting decisions. Maybe some disasters befalling other families have been averted because of the McCanns own personal tragedy. Has this got anything to do with empathy? Maybe.
I think it has, but only second hand. But then empathy always is.
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So what do people think it is, why do people think they possess it and why do they think others lack it?
As in OP.
Although it doesn't bother me - on principle why should I be classed as a mcc basher or not having empathy just because my opinion is I don't believe mcs version of events. I am not the only one or in the minority either.
It isn't because I lack empathy either and should not be judged as not having any it because I don't have it for the mccs
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So what do people think it is, why do people think they possess it and why do they think others lack it?
As in OP.
Although it doesn't bother me - on principle why should I be classed as a mcc basher or not having empathy just because my opinion is I don't believe mcs version of events. I am not the only one or in the minority either.
It isn't because I lack empathy either and should not be judged as not having any it because I don't have it for the mccs
I think you make a good point Kizzy...should any of our characters be judged on this single issue?
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What happened to the McCanns certainly made me question sone of my own parenting decisions. Maybe some disasters befalling other families have been averted because of the McCanns own personal tragedy. Has this got anything to do with empathy? Maybe.
But don't you think the mccs being doctors they should be more aware of what happens when you leave a child alone.
How do you think kmcc would respond to a parent who asked would it be ok to leave my babies 2/3 alone while I went to the shop 50 yards up the street. for 1/2 hour.
What advice would she give?
Surely not yes. IMO common sense befalls it happening to other families ...not the mccs.
IMO those who think it ok to do on holiday are probably still doing it.[ [or was before covid]
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The thing that gets me about the case (right from day one before anyone considered the parents faked an abduction) is the absolute hate and vilification these people received online. It’s what sucked me into the case in the early days - I was just aghast about how horribly judgemental people were being and how completely lacking in any empathy for the parents whatsoever. I honestly couldn’t believe what I was reading. What does that say about the sort of person I am?
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But don't you think the mccs being doctors they should be more aware of what happens when you leave a child alone.
How do you think kmcc would respond to a parent who asked would it be ok to leave my babies 2/3 alone while I went to the shop 50 yards up the street. for 1/2 hour.
What advice would she give?
Surely not yes. IMO common sense befalls it happening to other families ...not the mccs.
IMO those who think it ok to do on holiday are probably still doing it.[ [or was before covid]
Doctors are humans too and like other humans they can do stupid, risky things. I don’t think doctors receive special training on what is and isn’t sensible to do wrt leaving children unattended but I do think the fact that they regularly checked on their kids shows they recognised some risk was involved.
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Oh I do have empathy for people who want revenge on those that have attempted to ruin their lives, I would be exactly the same.
It's to be hoped that those seeking revenge have read the other person's intentions correctly. If they get it wrong it's not revenge it's undeserved aggression.
Revenge is defined as the act of committing a harmful action against a person or group in response to a grievance, be it real or perceived
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revenge#Social_psychology
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I'm puzzled as to why empathy is somehow considered admirable.
Does it make the individual feel virtuous and superior in some way ?
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Oh I do have empathy for people who want revenge on those that have attempted to ruin their lives, I would be exactly the same.
Old proverb, dig two graves when seeking revenge.
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It's to be hoped that those seeking revenge have read the other person's intentions correctly. If they get it wrong it's not revenge it's undeserved aggression.
Revenge is defined as the act of committing a harmful action against a person or group in response to a grievance, be it real or perceived
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revenge#Social_psychology
If you’re good at reading people and situations I think you should be able to spot people’s intentions. I think Kate McCann would have very good reasons to feel aggrieved by Amaral’s book and TV appearance for example. I think you would need a degree of empathy to understand how one might feel to be Kate knowing that the ex police officer who was sacked from the investigation into your child’s disappearance then went on to make a fortune off the back of his short few months on the case and in so doing firmly implicated you in the disappearance..
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Why do you think Goncalo Amaral merits empathy in the situation you have described?
You seem to be saying empathy has to be earned?
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I'm puzzled as to why empathy is somehow considered admirable.
Does it make the individual feel virtuous and superior in some way ?
I’d be happier if the empathy was spread a little more evenly.
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I'm puzzled as to why empathy is somehow considered admirable.
Does it make the individual feel virtuous and superior in some way ?
I’m puzzled as why you would consider it to be preferable not to have it. Do you think the world would be a better place without empathy?
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I’d be happier if the empathy was spread a little more evenly.
Tell us about your empathy for the McCanns.
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I’d be happier if the empathy was spread a little more evenly.
But surely it must be applied selectively otherwise being full on empathetic with everyone over everything would be exhausting.
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But surely it must be applied selectively otherwise being full on empathetic with everyone over everything would be exhausting.
Being a pinko I think all empathetic thoughts towards an individual should cease when they earn more than £50000 ;0)
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It's to be hoped that those seeking revenge have read the other person's intentions correctly. If they get it wrong it's not revenge it's undeserved aggression.
Revenge is defined as the act of committing a harmful action against a person or group in response to a grievance, be it real or perceived
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revenge#Social_psychology
In my opinion your post exemplifies "empathy" as many have implemented it's application to the family of a missing child.
I wonder why, in relation to your post defining the commission of harmful action in response to the many grievances and slights Amaral quotes himself as having suffered, what he was avenging himself against when traducing innocent people.
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Being a pinko I think all empathetic thoughts towards an individual should cease when they earn more than £50000 ;0)
Actually that totally chimes with my theory that many have no empathy for the McCanns partly because they are well off and middle class and instead enjoy the fact thst they messed up big time. Schadenfreude. Serves them right for getting ideas above their station, not knowing their place etc
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The reason for feeling empathy for one has been stated clearly in the opening post. The reason for empathising with the other has not been stated.
I have asked the thread originator the question, perhaps you will be kind enough to await her reply as I shall.
I wrote "feeling all three types of empathy for the McCanns is fairly easy if you accept the facts as they describe them." I didn't give a specific reason for empathising with Amaral, but I think it's obvious he must have suffered for making it clear that he did not accept the facts as descibed by the McCanns.
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You seem to be saying empathy has to be earned?
No I didn't say that.
I asked you "Why do you think Goncalo Amaral merits empathy in the situation you have described?" in your opening post. Or to put it in a different way ~
Why do you think Goncalo Amaral merits empathy for writing a book describing a theory he was never able to prove in practice the foundation for which was proved wrong by the Policia Judiciaria and Portuguese prosecutors.
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I wrote "feeling all three types of empathy for the McCanns is fairly easy if you accept the facts as they describe them." I didn't give a specific reason for empathising with Amaral, but I think it's obvious he must have suffered for making it clear that he did not accept the facts as descibed by the McCanns.
Yes I noted that libel just as I note the rest of the libel in your post.
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I think you make a good point Kizzy...should any of our characters be judged on this single issue?
That's the point I was hoping to make, really.
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The thing that gets me about the case (right from day one before anyone considered the parents faked an abduction) is the absolute hate and vilification these people received online. It’s what sucked me into the case in the early days - I was just aghast about how horribly judgemental people were being and how completely lacking in any empathy for the parents whatsoever. I honestly couldn’t believe what I was reading. What does that say about the sort of person I am?
You also judged. You judged the McCanns to be truthful and believable, did you not? Otherwise why be aghast at other's lack of empathy?
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No I didn't say that.
I asked you "Why do you think Goncalo Amaral merits empathy in the situation you have described?" in your opening post. Or to put it in a different way ~
Why do you think Goncalo Amaral merits empathy for writing a book describing a theory he was never able to prove in practice the foundation for which was proved wrong by the Policia Judiciaria and Portuguese prosecutors.
I thought empathy involved understanding another's feelings even if one doesn't share them? So empathising with Amaral's feelings is possible no matter why he has them or whether one shares them.
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You also judged. You judged the McCanns to be truthful and believable, did you not? Otherwise why be aghast at other's lack of empathy?
In the beginning I think many of the public were unable to empathise with the parents because they could never see themselves putting their children in such a dangerous situation...it really wasn’t about their truthfulness.
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Yes I noted that libel just as I note the rest of the libel in your post.
You think that it's libellous to say " if you accept the facts as they describe them." in relation to the McCanns? Have you failed to notice that there are many people online who do not accept the facts as they describe them? Why is it libellous to point that out?
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Being a pinko I think all empathetic thoughts towards an individual should cease when they earn more than £50000 ;0)
You think money protects people from suffering then? It can't buy love, remember.
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In the beginning I think many of the public were unable to empathise with the parents because they could never see themselves putting their children in such a dangerous situation...it really wasn’t about their truthfulness.
Yes, the first step is to understand. Difficult to do if you've no similar experience of your own to call on.
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You think money protects people from suffering then? It can't buy love, remember.
It can’t buy support either.
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In the beginning I think many of the public were unable to empathise with the parents because they could never see themselves putting their children in such a dangerous situation...it really wasn’t about their truthfulness.
It was a comedy of errors imo. It began with the Paynes booking the holiday without noticing there was no listening service in PdL. That resulted in some of the group being reluctant to go, according to Matthew Oldfield;
That fact had made some of the couples - and himself in particular - reluctant to come to Portugal because all the families have minor children.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD-10MAY.htm
Eventually a decision was taken to operate a listening service themselves. Ironically the family who made that decision necessary opted for listening using technology rather than running back and forth like the other three families.
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You also judged. You judged the McCanns to be truthful and believable, did you not? Otherwise why be aghast at other's lack of empathy?
At the stage I am talking about no one was questioning their version of events, they weren’t being accused online of a cover up they were simply being lambasted for leaving their kids alone while they “went on the piss”.
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In the beginning I think many of the public were unable to empathise with the parents because they could never see themselves putting their children in such a dangerous situation...it really wasn’t about their truthfulness.
yep, that’s just what I have said.
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I thought empathy involved understanding another's feelings even if one doesn't share them? So empathising with Amaral's feelings is possible no matter why he has them or whether one shares them.
Do you empathise with the McCanns’ feelings? I think I can understand what motivated Amaral and why he felt the way he did. His ego had taken a battering, he’d been shunted sideways, humiliated at home by his bosses and abroad by the media, the case had potentially destroyed him personally and professionally but he saw a way to turn it to his advantage and with the added benefit of sticking it directly to those who he perceived as the cause of all his problems.
Oops, forgot the IMO.
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Do you empathise with the McCanns’ feelings? I think I can understand what motivated Amaral and why he felt the way he did. His ego had taken a battering, he’d been shunted sideways, humiliated at home by his bosses and abroad by the media, the case had potentially destroyed him personally and professionally but he saw a way to turn it to his advantage and with the added benefit of sticking it directly to those who he perceived as the cause of all his problems.
Oops, forgot the IMO.
Of course I can empathise with the McCanns' feelings. The difference between us is that I probably don't agree with you as to what they were or what caused them.
You seem to struggle with empathising with Amaral's feelings.
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Of course I can empathise with the McCanns' feelings. The difference between us is that I probably don't agree with you as to what they were or what caused them.
You seem to struggle with empathising with Amaral's feelings.
It’s not just the struggle to empathise with Amaral but the tangible delight at every aspect of his downfall that is so odd. It’s almost as if his actions have harmed them personally.
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The only one I can feel empathy for is Madeleine,according to the parents version of events she was left to her own fate.
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Of course I can empathise with the McCanns' feelings. The difference between us is that I probably don't agree with you as to what they were or what caused them.
You seem to struggle with empathising with Amaral's feelings.
Why do you say that? I would say your observation was ad hominem. You say you empathise with the McCanns but I don’t see any evidence of it.
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It’s not just the struggle to empathise with Amaral but the tangible delight at every aspect of his downfall that is so odd. It’s almost as if his actions have harmed them personally.
You’re seeing things that just aren’t there. Also ad hominem.
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The only one I can feel empathy for is Madeleine,according to the parents version of events she was left to her own fate.
Are you sure you don’t mean sympathy?
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Are you sure you don’t mean sympathy?
So what is the difference between empathy and sympathy?
"Emotion researchers generally define empathy as the ability to sense other people's emotions, coupled with the ability to imagine what someone else might be thinking or feeling. ... “Cognitive empathy,” sometimes called “perspective taking,” refers to our ability to identify and understand other people's emotions."
"Sympathy is a feeling of pity or sense of compassion — it's when you feel bad for someone else who's going through something hard."
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So what is the difference between empathy and sympathy?
"Emotion researchers generally define empathy as the ability to sense other people's emotions, coupled with the ability to imagine what someone else might be thinking or feeling. ... “Cognitive empathy,” sometimes called “perspective taking,” refers to our ability to identify and understand other people's emotions."
"Sympathy is a feeling of pity or sense of compassion — it's when you feel bad for someone else who's going through something hard."
I feel great sympathy for the McCanns and especially Madeleine McCann. I empathise with the parents as I can imagine how they must have felt and continue to feel with regard to their child's disappearance and the feelings of guilt and regret they must have to live with. Sadly I believe once Madeleine was taken she was killed shortly thereafter so my feelings with regard to her are total sympathy rather than empathy as I cannot imagine (or perhaps don't want to) the feelings that she experienced in her last moments.
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Why do you say that? I would say your observation was ad hominem. You say you empathise with the McCanns but I don’t see any evidence of it.
No criticism intended, I just noticed that you haven't actually said you can empathise with Amaral. Just like you I can imagine and understand the McCann's feelings, even though I probably don't agree with you as to what they were and what caused them.
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I feel great sympathy for the McCanns and especially Madeleine McCann. I empathise with the parents as I can imagine how they must have felt and continue to feel with regard to their child's disappearance and the feelings of guilt and regret they must have to live with. Sadly I believe once Madeleine was taken she was killed shortly thereafter so my feelings with regard to her are total sympathy rather than empathy as I cannot imagine (or perhaps don't want to) the feelings that she experienced in her last moments.
When I looked at the definitions I found I was wondering if it was possible to feel empathy or sympathy for a person who was thought to be deceased?
G-unit said "I feel great sympathy for the McCanns and especially Madeleine McCann." But if she is deceased is it sympathy or empathy she feels, or is it just sorrow?
I'm sure we can feel sorrow for someone who's died.
sorrow
/ˈsɒrəʊ/
Learn to pronounce
noun
a feeling of deep distress caused by loss, disappointment, or other misfortune suffered by oneself or others.
"a bereaved person needs time to work through their sorrow"
Similar:
sadness
unhappiness
dejection
regret
depression
misery
cheerlessness
downheartedness
despondency
despair
desolation
wretchedness
glumness
gloom
gloominess
heaviness of heart
dolefulness
melancholy
low spirits
mournfulness
woe
broken-heartedness
heartache
grief
down
dolorous
disconsolateness
disconsolation
dismalness
Opposite:
joy
verb
feel or display deep distress.
"a woman had cried all night, sorrowing over the death of her husband"
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No criticism intended, I just noticed that you haven't actually said you can empathise with Amaral. Just like you I can imagine and understand the McCann's feelings, even though I probably don't agree with you as to what they were and what caused them.
I demonstrated my empathy for Amaral, I explained how I thought he felt and what motivated him. His feeling that he had been marginalised, not listened to, mocked, derided, his personal and professional standing damaged by a pair of (as he saw it) neglectful foreigners who had hidden their child's body.
I find it interesting that for someone who claims not to have any opinion on what happened to Madeleine that you say you are unable to empathise with the parents in the same way that I do - as the parents of an abducted child. This leads me to the conclusion that despite what you say, you do in fact have very firm opinions on what you believe is the McCanns role in this case.
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When I looked at the definitions I found I was wondering if it was possible to feel empathy or sympathy for a person who was thought to be deceased?
G-unit said "I feel great sympathy for the McCanns and especially Madeleine McCann." But if she is deceased is it sympathy or empathy she feels, or is it just sorrow?
sorrow
/ˈsɒrəʊ/
Learn to pronounce
noun
a feeling of deep distress caused by loss, disappointment, or other misfortune suffered by oneself or others.
"a bereaved person needs time to work through their sorrow"
Similar:
sadness
unhappiness
dejection
regret
depression
misery
cheerlessness
downheartedness
despondency
despair
desolation
wretchedness
glumness
gloom
gloominess
heaviness of heart
dolefulness
melancholy
low spirits
mournfulness
woe
broken-heartedness
heartache
grief
down
dolorous
disconsolateness
disconsolation
dismalness
Opposite:
joy
verb
feel or display deep distress.
"a woman had cried all night, sorrowing over the death of her husband"
I'm sure we can feel sorrow for someone who's died.
G-Unit does not have great sympathy for the McCanns. I doubt she has any tbh. It was I who wrote that.
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G-Unit does not have great sympathy for the McCanns. I doubt she has any tbh. It was I who wrote that.
You are right, my sympathies.
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I demonstrated my empathy for Amaral, I explained how I thought he felt and what motivated him. His feeling that he had been marginalised, not listened to, mocked, derided, his personal and professional standing damaged by a pair of (as he saw it) neglectful foreigners who had hidden their child's body.
I find it interesting that for someone who claims not to have any opinion on what happened to Madeleine that you say you are unable to empathise with the parents in the same way that I do - as the parents of an abducted child. This leads me to the conclusion that despite what you say, you do in fact have very firm opinions on what you believe is the McCanns role in this case.
OK, yes you do have some understanding of Amaral's feelings, I apologise. I can imagine what the McCanns' may be feeling as a result of any of these possible scenarios;
whether killed in a neglectful homicide or an intended homicide, whether the victim of a targeted abduction or an opportunistic abduction
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm
Unlike the PJ and the Prosecutors, I also don't rule out woke and wandered.
In my opinion certain feelings would arise in any of those scenarios; guilt, fear, distress, pain, anger and panic, for example.
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Doctors are humans too and like other humans they can do stupid, risky things. I don’t think doctors receive special training on what is and isn’t sensible to do wrt leaving children unattended but I do think the fact that they regularly checked on their kids shows they recognised some risk was involved.
I don’t think doctors receive special training on what is and isn’t sensible to do wrt leaving children unattended but I do think the fact that they regularly checked on their kids shows they recognised some risk was involved.
Not trained ????
So what would you think if a two-year-old was taken to A&E after an accident - and the parent told told the doctor. she had left him alone for half an hour to nip to the pub on the corner.
Do you think he would accept that as responsible parenting and done nothing?
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If you’re good at reading people and situations I think you should be able to spot people’s intentions. I think Kate McCann would have very good reasons to feel aggrieved by Amaral’s book and TV appearance for example. I think you would need a degree of empathy to understand how one might feel to be Kate knowing that the ex police officer who was sacked from the investigation into your child’s disappearance then went on to make a fortune off the back of his short few months on the case and in so doing firmly implicated you in the disappearance..
Well, it seems IMO GA had more empathy than the mccs when over fifty thousand was raised to help him fight the case.
If that hadn't happened the mccs would have probably won as IMO GA would have been unable to fight it as his assets were frozen
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Well, it seems IMO GA had more empathy than the mccs when over fifty thousand was raised to help him fight the case.
If that hadn't happened the mccs would have probably won as IMO GA would have been unable to fight it as his assets were frozen
Are you trying to say that more people had empathy for Amaral than the McCanns based on the fact that £50k was raised for his legal costs by a few hundred donors? Well if you want to turn it into an empathy pissing contest let me draw your attention to Kate's book which raised over £1m for the Fund.
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I don’t think doctors receive special training on what is and isn’t sensible to do wrt leaving children unattended but I do think the fact that they regularly checked on their kids shows they recognised some risk was involved.
Not trained ????
So what would you think if a two-year-old was taken to A&E after an accident - and the parent told told the doctor. she had left him alone for half an hour to nip to the pub on the corner.
Do you think he would accept that as responsible parenting and done nothing?
I'm sure doctors in A&E have to deal with terrible injuries and accidents every day that occurred because of individuals' foolish decisions, are doctors specifically trained not to leave their children unattended to go to the pub on the corner? My point was that doctors are not any different from you or I, they are not superior in how they behave or conduct their lives because of their medical training. In fact most of the medical people I have come into contact with have been strangely blase about risks to their own health through their lifestyle choices but that is by the by....
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Are you trying to say that more people had empathy for Amaral than the McCanns based on the fact that £50k was raised for his legal costs by a few hundred donors? Well if you want to turn it into an empathy pissing contest let me draw your attention to Kate's book which raised over £1m for the Fund.
Cmon think you would find it was more than a few hundred - the target was reached in no time.
There was a target if it had been considerably more it could have been raised we will never know. so you cant really judge by what the book raised.
My point anyway IMO thousands contributed as they had empathy for GA to fight the mccs in court.
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Cmon think you would find it was more than a few hundred - the target was reached in no time.
There was a target if it had been considerably more it could have been raised we will never know. so you cant really judge by what the book raised.
My point anyway IMO thousands contributed as they had empathy for GA to fight the mccs in court.
It's a strange argument you are putting forward. I don't think at any stage I have questioned or doubted that there are hundreds if not thousands of people who support Amaral. So what?
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Cmon think you would find it was more than a few hundred - the target was reached in no time.
There was a target if it had been considerably more it could have been raised we will never know. so you cant really judge by what the book raised.
My point anyway IMO thousands contributed as they had empathy for GA to fight the mccs in court.
I have a friend who was doorstepped by a tabloid newspaper because she contributed to Amaral’s fund. Disgraceful really.
Didn’t a group of British police contribute £1,000 to the fund? It would appear that there was certainly strong empathy towards Amaral from fellow police officers.
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I have a friend who was doorstepped by a tabloid newspaper because she contributed to Amaral’s fund. Disgraceful really.
Didn’t a group of British police contribute £1,000 to the fund? It would appear that there was certainly strong empathy towards Amaral from fellow police officers.
And yet if Amaral is to be believed less empathy from fellow police officers in his own back yard who appeared to not give him the send off he felt he deserved.
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I have a friend who was doorstepped by a tabloid newspaper because she contributed to Amaral’s fund. Disgraceful really.
Didn’t a group of British police contribute £1,000 to the fund? It would appear that there was certainly strong empathy towards Amaral from fellow police officers.
They certainly did.
I do think he does have a lot of empathy from all walks of life. Still involved it seems
Imo If ECHR doesn't favour the mccs - we will be hearing a lot more from GA.
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So what do people think it is, why do people think they possess it and why do they think others lack it?
As in OP.
Although it doesn't bother me - on principle why should I be classed as a mcc basher or not having empathy just because my opinion is I don't believe mcs version of events. I am not the only one or in the minority either.
It isn't because I lack empathy either and should not be judged as not having any it because I don't have it for the mccs
I know lots of people who don't believe the version of events which we have been spoon fed since 2007, people are certainly entitled to an opinion on this. It could have been all so different had the parents of the missing child followed convention and not attacked the very police force charged with finding their missing child.
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Cmon think you would find it was more than a few hundred - the target was reached in no time.
There was a target if it had been considerably more it could have been raised we will never know. so you cant really judge by what the book raised.
My point anyway IMO thousands contributed as they had empathy for GA to fight the mccs in court.
FYI the fund for Amaral's defence attracted 2791 donations, many of which were multiple donations from the same named individuals. By any measure that is not massive international support, nothing like that seen for the McCanns. Whatever happened to his donations anyway? I guess that's for another thread....
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I know lots of people who don't believe the version of events which we have been spoon fed since 2007, people are certainly entitled to an opinion on this. It could have been all so different had the parents of the missing child followed convention and not attacked the very police force charged with finding their missing child.
In what way could the outcome for the McCanns have been different John (and what exactly has this got to do with the thread subject)?
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Empathy is something which has been mentioned frequently in connection with this case, with some claiming they have it and accusing others of lacking it.
So what do people think it is, why do people think they possess it and why do they think others lack it?
Renowned psychologists Daniel Goleman and Paul Ekman have identified three types of empathy: Cognitive, Emotional and Compassionate.
Cognitive empathy is described as understanding another's feelings but not sharing them.
Emotional empathy is described as actually feeling another's pain.
Compassionate empathy is described as not only understanding and feeling another's pain, it leads to action too; helping if help is needed.
https://takecasper.com/2020/06/empathy-1/
My opinion is that empathy is a choice. People extend it to those they understand and connect with, but find it much harder to extend it to those they don't understand and connect with.
In the context of this board, feeling all three types of empathy for the McCanns is fairly easy if you accept the facts as they describe them. A nice middle class couple in caring professions had their daughter snatched almost 14 years ago and have never stopped searching for her in hopes that she's still out there somewhere.
It's much more difficult to feel empathy for Goncalo Amaral if you accept the facts as described by the McCanns. He didn't accept those facts and he wrote a book explaining why.
Both the McCanns and Amaral must have suffered, that's beyond doubt imo. Therefore empathy for their feelings must be a matter of choice by observers imo.
For many the empathy is directed towards Madeleine and not her parents as they judge them to have failed the child.
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For many the empathy is directed towards Madeleine and not her parents as they judge them to have failed the child.
It is possible to feel empathy for people who you perceive have done wrong you know.
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In what way could the outcome for the McCanns have been different John (and what exactly has this got to do with the thread subject)?
The words "full cooperation" come to mind.
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At the stage I am talking about no one was questioning their version of events, they weren’t being accused online of a cover up they were simply being lambasted for leaving their kids alone while they “went on the piss”.
There's quite a few claims there that need corroberating imo. When did the stage begin and end? Did it end after the story by Diário de Notícias on 05.05.2007 saying "This is a very badly told story", when it emerged that there was no evidence of a break-in at the apartment, despite that being widely reported in the UK press?
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/this-is-a-very-badly-told-story-dn-05-05-2007-t133.html
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It is possible to feel empathy for people who you perceive have done wrong you know.
In my view they did do wrong and have accepted they did so which ultimately will allow some to feel some empathy towards them. They did themselves no favours however in the aftermath of the disappearance and that is why their version of events has attracted so much scrutiny over the last 14 years.
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FYI the fund for Amaral's defence attracted 2791 donations, many of which were multiple donations from the same named individuals. By any measure that is not massive international support, nothing like that seen for the McCanns. Whatever happened to his donations anyway? I guess that's for another thread....
Well, 2791 is a lot more than the hundreds you first quoted.
The target was met in not time so imo if the amount had been consierably higher it could have been met.
Spose we will never know at least the empathy of 2791 will have been happy there donations paid off IMO
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I understand the dictionary definition of "empathy" and I understand what "empathy" is. Which is why I cannot for the life of me I fail to understand why such a word with so many beautiful interpretations has been hijacked to be used in the unrelenting insinuations polluting the internet against an innocent family.
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The words "full cooperation" come to mind.
That doesn't answer either of my questions.
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There's quite a few claims there that need corroberating imo. When did the stage begin and end? Did it end after the story by Diário de Notícias on 05.05.2007 saying "This is a very badly told story", when it emerged that there was no evidence of a break-in at the apartment, despite that being widely reported in the UK press?
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/this-is-a-very-badly-told-story-dn-05-05-2007-t133.html
Were you on social media in the days after the story broke and people were commenting about it online? If not then you're going to have to take my word for it - even Faithlilly has confirmed that what i said is correct.
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Well, 2791 is a lot more than the hundreds you first quoted.
The target was met in not time so imo if the amount had been consierably higher it could have been met.
Spose we will never know at least the empathy of 2791 will have been happy there donations paid off IMO
I believe it was hundreds and not thousands for the reason I have already stated - multiple donations (in some cases six or more separate donations) by the same individuals. But so what if it was hundreds, thousands or millions, I didn't think this thread was about who won the Most Empathy Received Competition, nor that there was a direct correlation between pounds donated and empathy shared.
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I understand the dictionary definition of "empathy" and I understand what "empathy" is. Which is why I cannot for the life of me I fail to understand why such a word with so many beautiful interpretations has been hijacked to be used in the unrelenting insinuations polluting the internet against an innocent family.
The only people I have seen using the word is those who support the McCanns. They have persistently accused others of lacking this attribute while simultaneously suggesting that those who they are accusing are in some way inferior imo.
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The only people I have seen using the word is those who support the McCanns. They have persistently accused others of lacking this attribute while simultaneously suggesting that those who they are accusing are in some way inferior imo.
In 2015 you wrote ... "I can easily imagine how it feels for innocent parents to lose a child, and I can empathise with that. The problem arises with the word 'innocent'. As Leicestershire police pointed out;" http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6765.msg286567#msg286567 which would appear to indicate that you have had a particular bee obsessing in your bonnet for quite some time.
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The only people I have seen using the word is those who support the McCanns. They have persistently accused others of lacking this attribute while simultaneously suggesting that those who they are accusing are in some way inferior imo.
So this thread is a basically a rebuke to those people then?
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In 2015 you wrote ... "I can easily imagine how it feels for innocent parents to lose a child, and I can empathise with that. The problem arises with the word 'innocent'. As Leicestershire police pointed out;" http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6765.msg286567#msg286567 which would appear to indicate that you have had a particular bee obsessing in your bonnet for quite some time.
I think quite a few others can be accused of obsession.
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I think quite a few others can be accused of obsession.
I think you've got that in one.
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So this thread is a basically a rebuke to those people then?
I think the purpose of this thread was made clear right from the opening post and as mirrored on threads evidencing empathy for a brutal rapist and child molester.
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In 2015 you wrote ... "I can easily imagine how it feels for innocent parents to lose a child, and I can empathise with that. The problem arises with the word 'innocent'. As Leicestershire police pointed out;" http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6765.msg286567#msg286567 which would appear to indicate that you have had a particular bee obsessing in your bonnet for quite some time.
Perhaps you didn't notice that I was responding to yet another post accusing me of lacking empathy? In my opinion that is the only reason I've ever used the word.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6765.msg286523#msg286523
I make no apology for responding to those oft occuring attacks.
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Perhaps you didn't notice that I was responding to yet another post accusing me of lacking empathy? In my opinion that is the only reason I've ever used the word.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6765.msg286523#msg286523
I make no apology for responding to those oft occuring attacks.
Obviously touched a nerve, as six years later here we are discussing the empathy thing again. Why not be more like Jassi who I get the feeling sees a lack of empathy as quite a positive thing?
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I think the purpose of this thread was made clear right from the opening post and as mirrored on threads evidencing empathy for a brutal rapist and child molester.
Where in the OP is there any mention of empathy for a brutal rapist and child molester.
Why is it that so many things are twisted when they don't suit one's agenda it seems IMO
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I think the purpose of this thread was made clear right from the opening post and as mirrored on threads evidencing empathy for a brutal rapist and child molester.
Are the other threads not off-topic on here B - where you think there is empathy for a brutal rapist.
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I think the purpose of this thread was made clear right from the opening post and as mirrored on threads evidencing empathy for a brutal rapist and child molester.
That is an absolutely terrible thing to accuse anyone of. Please provide a cite where any member has shown empathy towards Bruckner?
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That is an absolutely terrible thing to accuse anyone of. Please provide a cite where any member has shown empathy towards Bruckner?
Check out Spam's posts and then check out all those posts by forum members seeking to excuse or minimise or even deny CB's crimes, coupled with those who have empathised with how he must feel to be (in the opinion of some) unfairly accused of Madeleine's disappearance, how he has been denied fair treatment, how he must now fear for his life, and supportive of his rights to legal redress. Empathy, right there.
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I think the purpose of this thread was made clear right from the opening post and as mirrored on threads evidencing empathy for a brutal rapist and child molester.
This thread was started for the purpose of discussing the nature of empathy, and why it has played such a large part in discussions, particularly on this board.
If you think the purpose was different that's fine, so long as you make it clear that you are expressing an opinion, not stating a fact.
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This thread was started for the purpose of discussing the nature of empathy, and why it has played such a large part in discussions, particularly on this board.
If you think the purpose was different that's fine, so long as you make it clear that you are expressing an opinion, not stating a fact.
She did, that’s why she started her post with “I think” - bit of a giveaway that!