UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Alleged Miscarriages of Justice => Jeremy Bamber and the callous murder of his father, mother, sister and twin nephews. Case effectively CLOSED by CCRC on basis of NO APPEAL REFERRAL. => Topic started by: Caroline on April 20, 2021, 07:53:02 PM
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https://linktr.ee/WHFMurders?fbclid=IwAR2T5n6u8_fh2xd_uzRe8kJpTj6XTl_yLgzBJaw52-lPWWBc4SLiD0PehPw
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https://linktr.ee/WHFMurders?fbclid=IwAR2T5n6u8_fh2xd_uzRe8kJpTj6XTl_yLgzBJaw52-lPWWBc4SLiD0PehPw
Time for Bamber to explain the Anji and Virginia Greaves story (Approx 44:36) http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=9666.msg589764#msg589764
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=17.msg592161#msg592161
And would have been interesting to hear Brett Collins thoughts on Charles Marsden http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11533.msg594318#msg594318
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https://linktr.ee/WHFMurders?fbclid=IwAR2T5n6u8_fh2xd_uzRe8kJpTj6XTl_yLgzBJaw52-lPWWBc4SLiD0PehPw (https://linktr.ee/WHFMurders?fbclid=IwAR2T5n6u8_fh2xd_uzRe8kJpTj6XTl_yLgzBJaw52-lPWWBc4SLiD0PehPw)
Thanks for the link, Caroline.
I found K. Page's busy Welsh accent indistinct and jarring, so looked for an alternative link where you can slow the podcast speed down to about 0.8 or 0.9 which (for me) makes it more listenable. Click on Play Episode first then scroll down to the bottom of the page to adjust it with the minus sign...
https://www.podchaser.com/podcasts/the-white-house-farm-murders-1260797/episodes/hes-where-he-belongs-w-brett-c-89588392 (https://www.podchaser.com/podcasts/the-white-house-farm-murders-1260797/episodes/hes-where-he-belongs-w-brett-c-89588392)
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Hey,
Kay Page here
I am so sorry about the accent issue. It's one of the curses of being from the Valleys and try as I might, I just can't tone it down. But I'll actually try slowing the speed on next week's episode, I hadn't tried that.
But I am in the process of building the website and eventually there'll be transcripts for each episode there.
Let me know if anyone has any questions about this too :)
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Hey,
Kay Page here
I am so sorry about the accent issue. It's one of the curses of being from the Valleys and try as I might, I just can't tone it down. But I'll actually try slowing the speed on next week's episode, I hadn't tried that.
But I am in the process of building the website and eventually there'll be transcripts for each episode there.
For now, I'll attach the transcript of the episode (slightly different to the live one as I made edits after recording) and the transcript of the interview for anyone interested. I know my accent can be a problem and for people who can't/don't like podcasts :)
Let me know if anyone has any questions about this too :)
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/mpspey7q3681klhguq1dg/Brett-interview.docx?dl=0&rlkey=3vqy9ppj6w293cymbjtwq61io (https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/mpspey7q3681klhguq1dg/Brett-interview.docx?dl=0&rlkey=3vqy9ppj6w293cymbjtwq61io)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/zwats5y2m24au2r/Episode%20-%20Brett%20Collins.pdf?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/zwats5y2m24au2r/Episode%20-%20Brett%20Collins.pdf?dl=0)
Hey You!
Hope I didn't offend, but I think slowing down your delivery would improve listenability in future, despite your broad accent... although nowhere near as bad as Stephen Graham's dire effort as Taff Jones in the WHF TV drama series.
You were lucky to get your hands on Brett Collins after he did a runner from his scheduled TV interview last year.
And thanks for the transcript link... very helpful.
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Haha. No, not offended in the slightest haha. I always suspected my accent would be there :p
Oh boy, that accent haha. I've never understood why they don't use use actual Welsh actors haha.
Thank you.
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Hey,
Kay Page here
I am so sorry about the accent issue. It's one of the curses of being from the Valleys and try as I might, I just can't tone it down. But I'll actually try slowing the speed on next week's episode, I hadn't tried that.
But I am in the process of building the website and eventually there'll be transcripts for each episode there.
Let me know if anyone has any questions about this too :)
Hey Kay,
Thanks for this.
I’ve long suspected the Greave sisters know more than they’ve ever let on.
According to Anji Greaves Sun interview (29th Oct 1986)
‘Bamber’s lust for her also led to his downfall. For it aroused jealous hatred in his scorned former girlfriend Julie Mugford’
I don’t think Julie was jealous of the sisters - I think she was waking up to Bamber’s con
Plus his ‘triangulation’ of her & the Greave sisters (And others) were/are all part of his psychopathy https://neuroinstincts.com/triangulation-targets-and-stimulation/
Was Brett Collins confirming Bamber was sleeping with both sisters at the time - or having ‘affairs’ with both? It comes across like this but difficult to decipher because of how he describes it
I thought your delivery was really good by the way - Although Brett sounded as though he was either confused about some events or didn’t want to commit himself.
I’m also of the view he too may know more but may be fearful of repeating things now having chosen to not tell the police all those years ago?!
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Time for Bamber to explain the Anji and Virginia Greaves story (Approx 44:36) http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=9666.msg589764#msg589764
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=17.msg592161#msg592161
The following disingenuous excerpt is from Bamber’s ‘official’ website https://jeremybamber.org/jeremy-bamber/
‘Jeremy wanted to be with another woman called Virginia whom he had known for some time. He turned to Virginia for comfort away from Julie’s violent tantrums and demands. [9] Julie was becoming more and more difficult and resented Brett Collins being around and suspected that they were lovers.
According to Brett Collins he and Bamber were ‘lovers’ or at least had a sexual relationship/liaison with each other
And it now seems Bamber couldn’t be with Virginia Greaves because she was apparently due to marry someone else in a matter of weeks
And he was also in a relationship with Anji Greaves
Brett also says during the interview he didn’t have a clue about antiques - or words to that effect - so the following (Which was once posted on Bamber’s official website) is wrong
Who’s the author of this https://jeremybamber.org/jeremy-bamber/ ?
Coping with the tragedies at White House Farm
Brett had said he was experienced in the sale of antiques and together with Jeremy they took some valuables to Sotheby’s for auction to raise funds to help with the impending death duties much to the horror of the relatives. During the period before he was charged with the murders Jeremy Bamber had twice headed overseas rejecting what had happened and feeling distressed at the constant press intrusion into his life.
Whoever wrote and published the above ⬆️ (Copy of blog in full here http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8088.msg590546#msg590546)
also made the claim ‘His arrest and high media profile prompted his new love Virginia to turn her back on him’
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8088.msg590564#msg590564
But Virginia Greaves was apparently getting married to someone else.... suspect there’s much more to this story
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There were a few things that Brett seemed to misunderstand or not want to commit himself to.
E.g. he had no idea about the images of Shiela, which seems hard to believe and that he had no understanding of antiques but on that front he could have been playing a part essentially, wanting to sound like he knew more.
Yes, I believed Brett in relation to the sisters because he actually spoke about that a few times in different ways and stick to the same story.
I do think he probably knew more or at least had his own doubts.
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There were a few things that Brett seemed to misunderstand or not want to commit himself to.
E.g. he had no idea about the images of Shiela, which seems hard to believe and that he had no understanding of antiques but on that front he could have been playing a part essentially, wanting to sound like he knew more.
Yes, I believed Brett in relation to the sisters because he actually spoke about that a few times in different ways and stick to the same story.
I do think he probably knew more or at least had his own doubts.
Yes I picked up on him saying he had no idea about the ‘images of Sheila’ - thing is it can be difficult figuring out who said what and when
Journalist Roger Wilkes stated in his book ‘Blood Relations’
‘Virginia Greaves, who used to go out with Mike Deckers of the Frog and Beans. Jeremy also told Charles Marsden that he and Brett were going to sell Bourtree Cottage and move to Sheila's flat in Maida Vale. Virginia would move in too, Jeremy added.
How was Virginia moving in with Bamber if she was due to marry someone else?
Plus Anji Greaves made claim Bamber had proposed to her
But Bamber was claiming to Charles Marsden, & journalist Roger Wilkes it seems, Virginia Greaves would be moving in with him and Brett Collins?
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Here are the transcripts again:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/cz3kitv4d4xsh5i/Brett%20interview.pdf?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/11mghhbs3afi32m/Episode%20-%20Brett%20Collins.pdf?dl=0
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Here are the transcripts again:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/cz3kitv4d4xsh5i/Brett%20interview.pdf?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/11mghhbs3afi32m/Episode%20-%20Brett%20Collins.pdf?dl=0
Thanks!
Brett Collins on Virginia and Angela (Anji) Greaves - 2021
‘A girlfriend of his, an elder sister, we rang around a lot of lawyers to see if there was anyone who would take it on because it was a high profile case for free because we had no money to pay for it expensive lawyers and we got one.
The lady that came with me and we found the lawyer for Jeremy. What turned out was that her younger sister was having an affair at the same time with Jeremy and she's the girl that was in London with us at his sister's flat when she'd died and been buried. She answered the phone one day and it was Julie ringing to talk to him and the mistress answered the phone and that’s what set the whole thing for him.
About two weeks after this happening, the murders, she was about to get married to some guy she was engaged to but all that time she'd been having an affair with Jeremy. But they wanted to keep it from the press. So nobody actually knows about this until now.
I knew her through Jeremy and I knew her younger sister because she came and stayed with us in London in the townhouse. She posed as Jeremy's sort of other girlfriend but it wasn't her it at all it was her younger sister and they all went to ground just so that they wouldn't bring any heat on the sister that who was getting married’
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Brett Collins states during the podcast, ‘Jeremys actually bisexual and he could swing both ways depending on what mood he was in’
Yet Bamber’s ‘official’ website still appears to be in denial over this fact
‘It is important to look at the Bamber case against the background of these cultural and social values. Let us note that Jeremy Bamber had homosexual friends, as much as you or I would in today’s society, and thus it was speculated that he was bisexual.’
https://jeremybamber.org/the-inheritance-issue/
More from Brett Collins
‘Originally there was more to our friendship when I first met him because I was bisexual also, and we just hit it off, way before I have met his girlfriend. His girlfriend and he weren’t actually what you’d call monogamous friendship. He had several girls at the same time, that all thought that they were his girlfriend. He was quite different in his sexuality.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/11mghhbs3afi32m/Episode%20-%20Brett%20Collins.pdf?dl=0
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Brett Collins states during the podcast, ‘Jeremys actually bisexual and he could swing both ways depending on what mood he was in’
https://www.dropbox.com/s/11mghhbs3afi32m/Episode%20-%20Brett%20Collins.pdf?dl=0
Wonder if Brett Collins knew anything about Jeff
“.....New Zealand and there had some type of homosexual relationship with a man named Jeff it is also at this time that he met Brett Collins.” (sic) https://jeremybamber.org/the-inheritance-issue/
and didn’t he tell police he hadn’t had a sexual relationship with Bamber
‘Brett told police in a statement that although he was homosexual he had never had a sexual relationship with Jeremy, while Jeremy himself denied anything other than a close, affectionate friendship with Collins https://jeremybamber.org/the-inheritance-issue/
‘Originally there was more to our friendship when I first met him because I was bisexual also
https://www.dropbox.com/s/11mghhbs3afi32m/Episode%20-%20Brett%20Collins.pdf?dl=0
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Hey You!
Hope I didn't offend, but I think slowing down your delivery would improve listenability in future, despite your broad accent... although nowhere near as bad as Stephen Graham's dire effort as Taff Jones in the WHF TV drama series.
You were lucky to get your hands on Brett Collins after he did a runner from his scheduled TV interview last year.
And thanks for the transcript link... very helpful.
Have you managed to pull your foot out of your mouth yet? @)(++(*
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Haha. No, not offended in the slightest haha. I always suspected my accent would be there :p
Oh boy, that accent haha. I've never understood why they don't use use actual Welsh actors haha.
Thank you.
Well, I thought you were great Kay 8((()*/ (crawler!). No seriously, I enjoyed the interview, I was just talking about BC a few days ago and how it would be interesting if someone pinned him down on the photographs of Sheila. Not convinced he doesn't know anything about it.
One point about the cheque fraud though, I think when he mentioned Bamber carrying out a cheque fraud, he was talking about in Oz or NZ. Bamber tried to do something similar with his travellers cheques and got caught. It;s one of the reasons he left in a hurry.
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Thank you. I'm not a natural with things like podcasting :p So I've had some fun trying to get used to it.
For example - my audio was terrible, so I contacted an editor and it turns out...I was using the wrong side of the mic (&^&
Oh that's interesting.
Yea, I wasn't at all convinced about Sheila's images, but I almost feel as if he's convinced himself he wasn't involved in that because he sounded pretty confident. I still believe he was involved in that but I'm not sure why he couldn't recall it.
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There were a few things that Brett seemed to misunderstand or not want to commit himself to.
E.g. he had no idea about the images of Shiela, which seems hard to believe and that he had no understanding of antiques but on that front he could have been playing a part essentially, wanting to sound like he knew more.
Yes, I believed Brett in relation to the sisters because he actually spoke about that a few times in different ways and stick to the same story.
I do think he probably knew more or at least had his own doubts.
Kay,
Do you think Brett genuinely misunderstood or do you think he was purposefully being disingenuous over things like for example the meeting with the Sun journalist Michael Fielder?
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Thank you. I'm not a natural with things like podcasting :p So I've had some fun trying to get used to it.
For example - my audio was terrible, so I contacted an editor and it turns out...I was using the wrong side of the mic (&^&
Oh that's interesting.
Yea, I wasn't at all convinced about Sheila's images, but I almost feel as if he's convinced himself he wasn't involved in that because he sounded pretty confident. I still believe he was involved in that but I'm not sure why he couldn't recall it.
It all sounded pretty good to me and you did better than breakfast TV to pin him down! 8((()*/
I think he is reluctant to talk about the pictures because he couldn't justify his part in that.
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I think he is reluctant to talk about the pictures because he couldn't justify his part in that.
I concur
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I agree Caroline, I think that's more likely what it is.
I think perhaps he just really does regret being involved in something like that (being in your 20s is so different from being in your 60s) and so it's just easier for him to deny it than to admit he was involved.
My gut is that he DOES know he was involved in that but he is ashamed of it now and just doesn't want to admit it.
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Wonder if Brett Collins knew anything about Jeff
“.....New Zealand and there had some type of homosexual relationship with a man named Jeff it is also at this time that he met Brett Collins.” (sic) https://jeremybamber.org/the-inheritance-issue/
If you do have any further communication with Brett it would be interesting to know if he knew Jeff and to ask for the name of the man Bamber met in Hong Kong
Would also be interested to know what his thoughts are on men who have relationships with or marry women as a cover for the man’s homosexuality - this has been referred to by some as the ‘beard phenomenon‘
https://www.spokesman.com/stories/2005/may/28/women-pay-in-bearded-relationships/
https://thewisdomdaily.com/are-you-a-beard/
https://qz.com/329575/chinas-homowives-are-becoming-unlikely-champions-for-gay-rights/
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I agree Caroline, I think that's more likely what it is.
I think perhaps he just really does regret being involved in something like that (being in your 20s is so different from being in your 60s) and so it's just easier for him to deny it than to admit he was involved.
My gut is that he DOES know he was involved in that but he is ashamed of it now and just doesn't want to admit it.
Is it shame or fear or does Brett feel indifferent to it all?
I noticed he didn’t refer to Nevill, June, Sheila, Daniel and Nicholas by name.. wonder why?
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No, that's true. He never did refer to them by name.
I'm not sure. I'd have to speak with him again :)
I am still in contact with him and he told me to just drop him a message if I have anything further, so I will ask him those questions when I speak to him next :)
I'll probably leave it a few weeks just in case anything else crops up and i can ask it all in one go :)
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No, that's true. He never did refer to them by name.
Do you think if you did point this out to him if he might decide to not speak with you again?
I wonder how much thought he’s given to all this over the years.
I found his comment ‘an adoption of convenience’ of interest. Was this because of Bamber’s influence; conversations they had on the subject or did Brett say this because of something he may have read at some point over the years?
I’d be interested to know why he initially told the police he was ‘homosexual’ and now appears to identify as ‘bisexual’
I’d also be interested to hear Bretts thoughts on the possibility of Bamber using women as a cover for his possibly homosexuality
Would also be interested to know what his thoughts are on men who have relationships with or marry women as a cover for the man’s homosexuality - this has been referred to by some as the ‘beard phenomenon‘
https://www.spokesman.com/stories/2005/may/28/women-pay-in-bearded-relationships/
https://thewisdomdaily.com/are-you-a-beard/
https://qz.com/329575/chinas-homowives-are-becoming-unlikely-champions-for-gay-rights/
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I am still in contact with him and he told me to just drop him a message if I have anything further, so I will ask him those questions when I speak to him next :)
Caroline’s comment on the cheques might be something to explore further with him
One point about the cheque fraud though, I think when he mentioned Bamber carrying out a cheque fraud, he was talking about in Oz or NZ. Bamber tried to do something similar with his travellers cheques and got caught. It;s one of the reasons he left in a hurry.
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Thank you. I'm not a natural with things like podcasting :p
You come across very well btw
And Brett saying it ‘may’ be his last interview - suggests he might consider one more with you at least 8((()*/
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I'll probably leave it a few weeks just in case anything else crops up and i can ask it all in one go :)
I’d be interested to hear what he has to say about Charles Marsden and also if Bamber ever told him anything about the possible drug/date rape of the girl from the Chequers public house
Bamber visited Marsden seemingly out of the blue on the evening following the murders and they went for a drink together apparently
Marsden doesn’t appear to have been considered a reliable witness - Brett may be able to shed more light on why ?
Possible thread of interest on Charles Marsden ⬇️
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11533.msg592331#msg592331
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Thanks!
Brett Collins on Virginia and Angela (Anji) Greaves - 2021
‘A girlfriend of his, an elder sister, we rang around a lot of lawyers to see if there was anyone who would take it on because it was a high profile case for free because we had no money to pay for it expensive lawyers and we got one.
The lady that came with me and we found the lawyer for Jeremy. What turned out was that her younger sister was having an affair at the same time with Jeremy and she's the girl that was in London with us at his sister's flat when she'd died and been buried. She answered the phone one day and it was Julie ringing to talk to him and the mistress answered the phone and that’s what set the whole thing for him.
About two weeks after this happening, the murders, she was about to get married to some guy she was engaged to but all that time she'd been having an affair with Jeremy. But they wanted to keep it from the press. So nobody actually knows about this until now.
I knew her through Jeremy and I knew her younger sister because she came and stayed with us in London in the townhouse. She posed as Jeremy's sort of other girlfriend but it wasn't her it at all it was her younger sister and they all went to ground just so that they wouldn't bring any heat on the sister that who was getting married’
What did Brett mean by this?
Bamber was clearly using the Greave sisters just as he’d used Julie
And when he states,
‘She posed as Jeremy's sort of other girlfriend but it wasn't her it at all’ is this his way of of confirming Virginia perjured herself?
Does he mean she posed as Bamber’s girlfriend to the police?
Not read or seen any w/s of what either sister said. Only CAL's interpretation of what occured...
'Brett called at the cafe to remind Jeremy that the antiques dealer was due, so they all returned to the flat.
While the dealer was looking through the items from the farm, the telephone rang.Jeremy answered, speaking ‘in a friendly manner’ to the caller.
‘Who is it?’ Julie asked, growing suspicious.
‘Virginia,’ he said.
Julie knew at once that he meant Virginia Greaves, and asked him to put the phone down.When he carried on talking, she cut the call herself.
They then began to argue and Jeremy admitted he was seeing Virginia.
When the telephone rang again and he answered it, Julie stormed through to Sheila’s bedroom.
‘I was so angry,’ she remembered. ‘I picked up a Chinese box of Jeremy’s and threw it against a mirror, which smashed.’
Still on the line, Virginia heard the splintering glass. ‘What’s that?’ she asked.
Jeremy replied, ‘Oh, Julie just smashing some plates up.’
There was another crash.
‘What’s that?’ asked Virginia again.
‘Julie’s just put her wrists through the window.’
Shocked, Virginia told him definitely, ‘I don’t want anything to do with that and I’ll speak to you some time.’
Was the above Anji after all?
Did Brett ever meet Anne the barmaid from Colchester or Suzette Ford or did Bamber ever say anything to him about them?
There’s no mention of ‘Anne’ the barmaid from Colchester.
No mention of him having phoned Suzette Ford asking her if she was still in love with him.
Sue Ford attended his trial https://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=88.msg750#msg750 after Bamber used the ‘Hoover Maneuver‘ on her https://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/hoover-maneuver-the-dirty-secret-of-emotional-abuse-0219154
Plus Anji Greaves doesn’t appear to have turned her back on him ‘after his arrest’ - she was waiting for him with a journalist inside a hotel room
Media photos are of Anji https://www.gettyimages.com.au/detail/news-photo/mr-brett-collins-and-angela-greaves-the-29-year-old-news-photo/830974720 NOT Virginia
There are no photos of Virginia they are all of Anji
https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-crime-murder-jeremy-bamber-maldon-1985-111059828.html
I wonder what Anji Greaves thought about Suzette Ford & Vice verse
Bamber’s ‘triangulation’ knew no bounds it seems
Plus his ‘triangulation’ of her & the Greave sisters (And others) were/are all part of his psychopathy https://neuroinstincts.com/triangulation-targets-and-stimulation/
It amazes me how anyone could view Julie as a ‘scorned’ or ‘jilted’ women because she found out about Virginia or Anji (Suspect she found out about both)
What was it Bamber wrote in the note to Julie while he was on remand ?
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Was Brett Collins confirming Bamber was sleeping with both sisters at the time - or having ‘affairs’ with both? It comes across like this but difficult to decipher because of how he describes it
Or did he simply mean Bamber was using them both?
Kay you’ve concluded in relation to what Brett said to you about Julie that ‘it was Jeremy’s lack of commitment’ to Julie ‘that ultimately saw their relationship come to an end’
I don’t actually think this was what he was meant
You’ve also stated,
‘At the time Jeremy was also with Julie, Brett and Jeremy were nothing more than friends’
There’s a reference somewhere of Bamber playing with Bretts hair whilst his head was in his lap or vice versa - I don’t recall exactly without looking it up but this reference alone could suggest otherwise
Maybe you could remind Brett of this event - which I think was witnessed by Julie - and ask him if the two of them ever openly flirted in front of Julie
He goes on to state in relation to Julie,
‘That’s why she turned on him in the end’
I disagree with the above btw
Bamber was clearly abusing Julie and his abuse of her appears to have been going on in front of Brett Collins
“He’d told her that he was shooting animals or whatever and naming them mum and dad and making out that he was getting target practice”
Did Bamber tell Brett this ⬆️ and if so why didn’t he tell the police?
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I think perhaps he just really does regret being involved in something like that (being in your 20s is so different from being in your 60s) and so it's just easier for him to deny it than to admit he was involved.
If he regretted being involved with Bamber he didn’t give that impression
Would be interested to hear your thoughts on how and why you see it as ‘easier for him to deny it than to admit he was involved’
Based on the contents of Brett’s replies there appeared to be some cognitive dissonance going on
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‘I first met him in New Zealand. I was renting a flat below my house to an air steward who (something) in New Zealand and they both met in Hong Kong.
Jeremy was coming to New Zealand with a diving course and they seemed to get on over a few days. So he invited Jeremy to stay in the flat, which I owned because he was doing international flights which meant he was going to be away for a few weeks. So I met Jeremy when he arrived in Aukland and I let him stay in the flat for about a month’
Did Brett mean Bamber and this air steward met in Hong Kong and the air steward had suggested to Bamber to come and stay with him - in a flat which was owned by Brett?
It’s confusing
Where did Bamber stay when he first arrived in Auckland, New Zealand ?
‘Jeremy was coming to New Zealand with a diving course and they seemed to get on over a few days’
Was this other bloke also doing a diving course?
And what about the alleged person in this letter
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11197.msg572685#msg572685
Does Brett remember Bamber flying to Fiji?
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Yes, Bamber and the air steward met in Hong Kong. I took it to mean that it was arranged that Bamber would stay there BEFORE he left Hong Kong.
He met the air steward in Hong Kong and was offered the apartment Brett owned because the air steward was away with work.
I don't think he regretted being involved with Bamber, I think he perhaps regretted getting swept up in things AFTER the murders. I think perhaps he can now see how cold the selling of antiques seemed and how awful it was to attempt to sell the images. I think perhaps he regrets THAT and as I said if I hadn't known he'd been involved in that I probably would have believed him.
Almost like he sincerely believed it.
To be honest (RE: Julie) I think it was a combination of everything. I do think that she'd started to realise it wasn't the fairy tale she'd hoped and had begun having concerns with his behavior.
From what I've read and learnt from other people, I'm inclined to think it was an entirely unhealthy relationship and that for whatever reason it just hit its tipping point. I believe that she'd started to see what was really going on but perhaps it ended more suddenly than she thought it would.
I was led to believe that Jeremy and Brett's relationship was purely friendly when they were together after the murders. Tactile but platonic. But I personally buy into the idea that it doesn't overly affect anything. It doesn't much matter if there was something more between them, other than giving Brett a reason to distance himself further.
Over the weekend I will read through all the follow-ups for Brett and start to draft a list of questions for him :) I didn't think of half of these at the time because the interview itself was 1hr20 haha. But I will follow them up for you.
I have two client deadlines today haha so you not hear from me until very late or early tomorrow.
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Yes, Bamber and the air steward met in Hong Kong. I took it to mean that it was arranged that Bamber would stay there BEFORE he left Hong Kong.
He met the air steward in Hong Kong and was offered the apartment Brett owned because the air steward was away with work.
Yes I took it to mean it was already arranged Bamber would stay at the air stewards flat (apparently owned by Brett) in which case it sounds as though it was initially the air steward who agreed with Bamber he could stay with him in the flat but it was Brett who had the final say - or this is how Brett wants it to appear?
’and they seemed to get on over a few days’
suggests Bamber had already stayed with the air steward - unless they were in Hong Kong for a few days and spent time together there?
A first name for the air steward might be helpful and a bit more clarification
As previously mentioned - Julie refers to someone called ‘Jeff’ in one of her witness statements and of a photograph Bamber had of this guy
Again would be helpful if Brett was asked if he recalls someone called Jeff and if he knows anymore to the story of Jeff and Bamber’s relationship with him
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I don't think he regretted being involved with Bamber, I think he perhaps regretted getting swept up in things AFTER the murders. I think perhaps he can now see how cold the selling of antiques seemed and how awful it was to attempt to sell the images. I think perhaps he regrets THAT and as I said if I hadn't known he'd been involved in that I probably would have believed him.
Almost like he sincerely believed it.
Based on the contents of his interview with you - no it doesn’t sound as though Brett has any or many regrets of having met Bamber and at times (based on the content of his replies to you) he still appears to be looking for excuses for the murders to have been committed by someone else
He gives the overall impression he still hasn’t fully come to terms with what his once friend and lover did that night - or maybe he feels indifferent about what happened or simply doesn’t care of give it much thought?
For me, him denying any involvement with the attempted selling of the photographs of Sheila after all these years makes him appear insensitive and cruel -especially now he’s denied any knowledge of them fullstop.
I get the sense he doesn’t really care what Bamber’s doing ie; still conning others and again for me it makes some of what Brett says pointless
I don’t believe he’s forgotten about these events - I’m not sure how he would be able to forget them given there are constant reminders of his name alongside Bamber’s online and the numerous TV shows over the years and I suspect one of the first questions he’s asked by people who know the case is about those photos
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I was led to believe that Jeremy and Brett's relationship was purely friendly when they were together after the murders. Tactile but platonic. But I personally buy into the idea that it doesn't overly affect anything. It doesn't much matter if there was something more between them, other than giving Brett a reason to distance himself further.
Maybe some context will help
Jeremy Bamber met Brett Collins before he met Julie Mugford
And when Bamber met Julie he didn’t appear to make her aware he was sexually attracted to men or that he had for example been in a sexual relationship with Brett Collins
Plus there was also someone called ‘Jeff’ - who some people put down to as a ‘rumour’
Where's the evidence he had sexual relationships with males? Of course it was easy for a rumour to take hold about a Jeff in NZ as it wasn't easy to corroborate and Afaik never has been.
There was also someone called Ray apparently
JM’s witness statement
“He replied that he had had a gay relationship with Ray but that it was a one off and would never happen again. On the same occasion we also discussed Brett. Jeremy asked me why I was not worried about him. I said I had no worries because Brett was so unattractive. Jeremy agreed with me.
Julie only appears to have learned about Bamber’s sexual attraction to men around the time of the murders
Did Brett fall in love with Bamber?
Only he can answer this but he does seem to be saying he thinks Bamber is sexually attracted to men and not women
Brett stated:
‘Originally there was more to our friendship when I first met him because I was bisexual also, and we just hit it off, way before I have met his girlfriend. His girlfriend and he weren't actually what you'd call monogamous friendship. He had several girls at the same time, that all thought that they were his girlfriend. He was quite different in his sexuality.
You say,
‘I was led to believe that Jeremy and Brett's relationship was purely friendly when they were together after the murder. Tactile but platonic’
But things aren’t always what we are led to believe. Appearances can be deceptive.
I’m not so sure and it’s quite possible Bamber and Brett were having sex behind the backs of all the ‘girlfriends’ - including Julie
Jeremy Bamber loved to taunt Julie, I suppose he was trying to establish how far he could go without driving her away completely. Sitting stroking Brett Collins' hair was one such episode.
What sort of a Muppet does that in front of his girlfriend?
And we still don’t know what Virginia and Anji Greaves made of Bamber’s behaviour
‘A common pattern demonstrated by some individuals with psychopathy is the need for stimulation by having old and new partners compete. https://neuroinstincts.com/triangulation-targets-and-stimulation/
Bamber’s behaviour since he’s been in prison is not dissimilar to how he behaved before prison. And many of his previous supporters have described ‘triangulation’ although not necessarily used those words.
Excerpt from above link:
‘For months, Carl went back and forth between the two women. Telling each of them that he loved them and that the other was crazy. He would promise Katy he would finalize the divorce and leave Mandy “for good.” However, the next day he would tell Mandy that Katy was just a fling who will not leave him alone because she is young and obsessed.
The women hated each other and began to hurl attacks online. On one occasion they had a meeting (each with the goal of making the other leave Carl alone). It ended in a screaming match.
Was Brett accepting of or comfortable with Bamber’s abusive behaviour towards these women or did he feel indifferent about it because he believed Bamber was sexually attracted to men only?
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To be honest (RE: Julie) I think it was a combination of everything. I do think that she'd started to realise it wasn't the fairy tale she'd hoped and had begun having concerns with his behavior.
From what I've read and learnt from other people, I'm inclined to think it was an entirely unhealthy relationship and that for whatever reason it just hit its tipping point. I believe that she'd started to see what was really going on but perhaps it ended more suddenly than she thought it would.
When you say ‘it wasn’t the fairy tale she’d hoped’ are you saying you view the young Julie as a fantasist?
Going only on what Brett has recently said - Bamber’s relationship with Julie was clearly based on lies from the get go - from my viewpoint Bamber possibly viewed Julie as a challenge and someone he could eventually control
‘Originally there was more to our friendship when I first met him because I was bisexual also, and we just hit it off, way before I have met his girlfriend. His girlfriend and he weren't actually what you'd call monogamous friendship. He had several girls at the same time, that all thought that they were his girlfriend. He was quite different in his sexuality.
Plus Anji Greave said Bamber had proposed marriage to her and Bamber said Virginia Greaves was moving in with him. He’d also phoned Suzette Ford to apparently ask her if she still loved him. This is just a snippet of Bamber’s psychopathic behaviour following the murders.. there was also an ‘Anne from Colchester’
‘But Jeremy was far from dedicated to their relationship. He had telephoned Sue in Jersey, asking if she still loved him, and persued a Colchester barmaid named Anne, seven years his senior. Anne agreed to a couple of dates, during which Jeremy showed her his family’s farmland and Osea Road, telling her that he was very wealthy and intended to buy a Porsche someday.
(Courtesy of Carol Ann Lee from the book ‘The murders at White House farm’)
Here’s another snippet
I think there were many anti-gay people around in the 1980s, which sadly meant many people tried to hide their sexuality. It’s of no relevance which gender he liked to have sex with: the relevance is — and from what Julie states in her WS’s — he was being deceptive, unfaithful, promiscuous — and wasn’t being honest with her. Remember, that was bang at the time of the onset of AIDS, which mainly affected gay people, so Jeremy was putting Julie — and everyone else he had sex with — at danger. Thankfully, they both dodged that bullet, but nonetheless he was taking a huge risk...
It’s clear going by Julie’s statements that he was cheating on her and having sex with others behind her back, and he was hiding it from her, being deceptive.
I view Bamber to be a psychopath therefore his relationship with Julie would have been ‘unhealthy’ from the moment they met
He will have no doubt initially ‘idealised’ her but then the ‘devalue’ and ‘discard’ phases will have occurred
I’m also of the view Julie wasn’t personality disordered therefore she most probably experienced the ‘psychopathic bond’
‘The beginning of these relationships are pleasant, romantic and intense. The neurochemistry of love (norepinephrine, oxytocin, dopamine, vasopressin, and endogenous opioids) flows in abundance making it an exciting time and a perfect setting for an eventual bond. However, the bonding stage will only take place for the non-personality-disordered mate. https://neuroinstincts.com/idealize-devalue-discard/
‘The predictable yet completely unexpected and devastating pattern of a relationship with a psychopath involves three stages: Idealise, Devalue and Discard.
These relationships start out like heaven on earth.... but end in a place worse than hell’
http://psychopathsandlove.com/stages-of-the-psychopathic-relationship/
Bamber may very well have targeted Julie as part of his eventual plan to murder his family. I suspect he did
‘When you’re targeted by a psychopath, you will become and unwitting opponent in his or her or her game of power and control. When stage one — the idealization stage — begins, you believe you’ve found an exciting, romantic relationship and that you’ve met the love of your life… but what you’re actually entering is a game of sorts, one you’re guaranteed to lose. Through manipulation, the psychopath takes control of you and the relationship. Inevitably they will become bored with you, and then through devaluation and abuse, the psychopath will damage you emotionally, psychologically and spiritually and leave you deeply traumatized.
It’s interesting how Charles Marsden doesn’t refer to Virginia or Anji Greaves as ‘serious girlfriends’ yet these are the two women who appear to have been around Bamber the most after he committed the murders and in the lead up to his trial - one of which he intended on marrying apparently and the other he hoped to have move in
Excerpts from Journalist Roger Wilkes book ‘Blood Relations’
‘Marsden said that while he knew of only two serious girlfriends, Suzette Ford and Julie Mugford, Jeremy had had many one-night stands.
‘Marsden had the impression that Julie had disliked Brett Collins. In any case, Jeremy added, he now had a new girlfriend, Virginia Greaves, who used to go out with Mike Deckers of the Frog and Beans. Jeremy also told Charles Marsden that he and Brett were going to sell Bourtree Cottage and move to Sheila's flat in Maida Vale. Virginia would move in too, Jeremy added.
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Based on the contents of Brett’s replies there appeared to be some cognitive dissonance going on
An example:
‘Talking to him, on the phone, it wasn’t a clear conversation, I know he’s just been through hell but I don’t know who was in the room with him or what was going on but he just seemed short of breath and was trying to think clearly.
When I think back, he should have got an Academy Award for his acting’
If Bamber was responsible for the murder - my view is he most certainly was - he wouldn’t have ‘just been through hell’ as Brett describes
He also says he thought Bamber ‘was trying to think clearly’ - which sounds like Brett’s own projections or yet more excuses for Bamber’s behaviours?
Either way - none of us know what other people think we can only speculate on others thoughts
Possible link of interest
‘Theory of mind’ https://aeon.co/essays/think-you-can-tell-what-others-are-thinking-think-again
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I didn't think of half of these at the time because the interview itself was 1hr20 haha. But I will follow them up for you.
You did a great job 8((()*/
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Some of Julies hand written notes and statements have been typed up by Admin ⬇️ with a few inaccuracies
Does Brett remember any of this? Does he for example recall Richard Deckers staying at the flat with him and Bamber?
Does Brett know if Richard Deckers knew Virginia and Anji were both having ‘affairs’ with Bamber?
Sheila's Flat - Maida Vale - Wed 4 Sept 1985
According to Julie Mugford, she telephoned Bamber at Sheila's flat in Maida Vale on Tuesday 3 September 1985. She called round the following day. She said it appeared that he was staying at the flat with a friend, Richard Deckers. She arrived at the flat at 2.50pm and sat waiting in the doorway. He arrived with Brett at about 3.40pm, he got out of the car before Brett and came over and gave her a hug. She asked to see him alone and we walked to a cafe across the road.
In the cafe she asked about their relationship. Bamber said he had been sold out and was it a matter of continuing the relation ship or her going to the police. Bamber said that he didn't want to continue the relationship and wanted his freedom. Brett arrived at the cafe and discussed some business with Jeremy. Julie states that they she then suggested moving some of her belongings to her new address before all three again left for Sheila's flat.
At the flat Brett attended to a man who had just arrived. The phone rang and Jeremy answered it. Julie says that he seemed speak in an overly friendly manner to the caller so she asked him who it was and he replied Virginia. Virginia was previously acquainted with both Jeremy and Richard Decker. Julie states that she terminated the call before the phone rang again, it was Virginia. Julie was angry with Jeremy as he had asked out another woman. She states that she walked out of the room into a bedroom where she picked up a Chinese box and threw it against a mirror, smashing it. With that Jeremy came into the room with the phone before ending the call.
Jeremy asked why she had did it and she told him that it was cruel to ask out another woman while she was there, Bamber became really cross and Julie had slapped his face. Julie recalls that he grabbed her right arm and pushed it up her back and shoved her onto the bed and made to strike her. Julies states that she goaded him daring him to hit her. She said she told him that she would go straight to Essex Police and they would listen to her. Bamber said that the case was so watertight that they would never listen to her.
Bamber let go of her and lay on the bed very quiet. Julie said she asked him to speak to her and why he was so quiet. She said he looked worried and she felt sorry for him. They started talking again normally and she told him that he could trust her and that she wouldn't say anything. Jeremy eventually gave her a lift home to her flat.
Brett Collins was a friend whom Bamber had met while in New Zealand.
Julie Mugford witness statement page 27 (http://i.imgur.com/kznbl.jpg)
Julie Mugford witness statement page 28 (http://i.imgur.com/BobIW.jpg)
Julie Mugford witness statement page 29 (http://i.imgur.com/CyGt3.jpg)
Julie Mugford witness statement page 30 (http://i.imgur.com/BuL28.jpg)
Julie Mugford witness statement page 31 (http://i.imgur.com/Q8iEr.jpg)
Julie Mugford witness statement page 32 (http://i.imgur.com/sVQS2.jpg)
Note re the above: ⬇️
According to Julies WS Bamber didn’t say, ‘he had been sold out’ - he said re his relationship with Julie ‘it had already been sold out’
Julie stated,
“In the cafe we started talking and I asked him what was going on in respect of our relationship. He said it had already been sold out.
I told him he was selfish and that I couldn’t let him get away with hurting people anymore. He said, ‘you mean I either confess; going to the police or I carry on the relationship with you’
He thought I was giving him an alternative.
We discussed our relationship further and basically he could have freedom and do what he wanted to do
Also note
Julie wasn’t furious she actually stated she was annoyed (top of page 29 of her WS)
“I was annoyed with him about the call as he had told me he had asked out another women. The phone then rang again and it was Virginia. I walked out of the room and into the bedroom as I was so angry. I picked a Chinese box of Jeremy and threw it against a mirror which smashed. When that broke he came into the room with the phone, still on it to Virginia and then put it down.
He asked me why I did it and I said it was a cruel thing to do to ask out another women whilst I was there
He became very cross and I slapped his face.
He then got hold of my right arm and twisted it up my back, pushed me onto the bed and then he raised his arm as if to hit me
Would be interested to know if Brett recalls whether Bamber was speaking to Anji or Virginia when the above incident occurred
And previously he said Bamber was apparently sexually assaulted/abused (?) at age 11
"A close friend of his, Brett Collins, said Bamber was sexually assaulted when he was 11, around the time he started at Gresham's
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Another link to the podcast on YouTube... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2IWwUJXZ8g (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2IWwUJXZ8g)
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Hey,
Kay Page here
I am so sorry about the accent issue. It's one of the curses of being from the Valleys and try as I might, I just can't tone it down. But I'll actually try slowing the speed on next week's episode, I hadn't tried that.
But I am in the process of building the website and eventually there'll be transcripts for each episode there.
Let me know if anyone has any questions about this too :)
It may be just me but I found your accent pretty clear but then again my wife is from the Rhondda and I've heard a very strong accent when I've been there. Could possibly slow down a bit though.