UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧

Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Mr Gray on April 22, 2021, 09:25:55 PM

Title: If CB was found guilty would the McCanns be completely cleared?
Post by: Mr Gray on April 22, 2021, 09:25:55 PM
 So if CB was found guilty of MMs abduction and murder.... Would that completely clear the McCanns?
Title: Re: If CB was found guilty would the McCanns be completely cleared?
Post by: Eleanor on April 22, 2021, 09:32:50 PM
So if CB was found guilty of MMs abduction and murder.... Would that completely clear the McCanns?

Probably not.
Title: Re: If CB was found guilty would the McCanns be completely cleared?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on April 22, 2021, 10:16:18 PM
So if CB was found guilty of MMs abduction and murder.... Would that completely clear the McCanns?
Don’t be absurd, of course not.  The McCanns will only be cleared when Goncalo Amaral and Eddie say/bark the words “The McCanns have been cleared” and that is never happening.
Title: Re: If CB was found guilty would the McCanns be completely cleared?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on April 22, 2021, 10:22:40 PM

That would depend on what evidence secured his conviction.

A half hour phone call, some children's swimwear & someone saying that Brueckner said that he dunnit wouldn't be enough imo
Title: Re: If CB was found guilty would the McCanns be completely cleared?
Post by: Eleanor on April 22, 2021, 10:27:11 PM
That would depend on what evidence secured his conviction.

A half hour phone call, some children's swimwear & someone saying that Brueckner said that he dunnit wouldn't be enough imo

You are probably right about this much.  But there is almost certainly more to it than that already.
Title: Re: If CB was found guilty would the McCanns be completely cleared?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on April 22, 2021, 10:30:23 PM
You are probably right about this much.  But there is almost certainly more to it than that already.

I'm not often right about much, to be fair.
Title: Re: If CB was found guilty would the McCanns be completely cleared?
Post by: Eleanor on April 22, 2021, 10:35:49 PM
I'm not often right about much, to be fair.

You are not as daft as you sometimes pretend to be.  I do know that much.
Title: Re: If CB was found guilty would the McCanns be completely cleared?
Post by: G-Unit on April 23, 2021, 08:57:45 AM
Daftness, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder imo.
Title: Re: If CB was found guilty would the McCanns be completely cleared?
Post by: G-Unit on April 23, 2021, 09:03:12 AM
So if CB was found guilty of MMs abduction and murder.... Would that completely clear the McCanns?

Does being found guilty in a court of law mean someone actually did something? That would mean that the Ciprianos were guilty, for example.
Title: Re: If CB was found guilty would the McCanns be completely cleared?
Post by: Eleanor on April 23, 2021, 09:13:42 AM
Daftness, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder imo.

Daftness is sometimes a matter of opinion and often depends on whether or not someone agrees with you.
Title: Re: If CB was found guilty would the McCanns be completely cleared?
Post by: Eleanor on April 23, 2021, 09:15:48 AM
Does being found guilty in a court of law mean someone actually did something? That would mean that the Ciprianos were guilty, for example.

In Portugal anything can happen.  Best not to go there.
Title: Re: If CB was found guilty would the McCanns be completely cleared?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on April 23, 2021, 09:23:53 AM
Does being found guilty in a court of law mean someone actually did something? That would mean that the Ciprianos were guilty, for example.
Does anything mean anything at the end of the day?  Is this reality or just an illusion of reality?  If a tree crashes in a forum does a pig flutter its wings?  So many questions so little time left to find the answers....
Title: Re: If CB was found guilty would the McCanns be completely cleared?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on April 23, 2021, 09:25:51 AM
Does being found guilty in a court of law mean someone actually did something? That would mean that the Ciprianos were guilty, for example.
But seriously, it's clear by your answer that in your opinion the answer to the question (as I predicted yesterday) is a big fat sceptical NO, yes?  Which begs the question how can anyone ever be cleared of any suspicion ever?  Suspicion resides with the suspicious and is their problem, and shouldn't be something the suspected should have to worry about if they are innocent in the eyes of the law and know in their own hearts that they are innocent.
Title: Re: If CB was found guilty would the McCanns be completely cleared?
Post by: Mr Gray on April 23, 2021, 09:47:36 AM
Does being found guilty in a court of law mean someone actually did something? That would mean that the Ciprianos were guilty, for example.

I'm surprised you need to ask that question. 
The point I'm making is that sceptics make a lot of their claim that the McCanns have not been completely cleared.... Implying some measure of doubt.  The point I'm making is that it's an absurd notion... Even if CB was found guilty on overwhelming evidence I'm sure some sceptics would simply not accept it
Title: Re: If CB was found guilty would the McCanns be completely cleared?
Post by: G-Unit on April 23, 2021, 10:32:51 AM
I'm surprised you need to ask that question. 
The point I'm making is that sceptics make a lot of their claim that the McCanns have not been completely cleared.... Implying some measure of doubt.  The point I'm making is that it's an absurd notion... Even if CB was found guilty on overwhelming evidence I'm sure some sceptics would simply not accept it

As you have acknowledged, someone's guilt or innocence is a matter of opinion, not necessarily of fact. I agree with the Supreme Court judges; the McCanns were not cleared by the archiving dispatch as has been claimed. I don't know if they are guilty or innocent of involvement in their daughter's disappearance, but I'm pretty sure they weren't eliminated. If CB is ever tried, I will do my best to understand the evidence and decide what I think about it. Until that happens I can't predict my response.
Title: Re: If CB was found guilty would the McCanns be completely cleared?
Post by: Mr Gray on April 23, 2021, 10:43:44 AM
As you have acknowledged, someone's guilt or innocence is a matter of opinion, not necessarily of fact. I agree with the Supreme Court judges; the McCanns were not cleared by the archiving dispatch as has been claimed. I don't know if they are guilty or innocent of involvement in their daughter's disappearance, but I'm pretty sure they weren't eliminated. If CB is ever tried, I will do my best to understand the evidence and decide what I think about it. Until that happens I can't predict my response.

You already have predicted your response.  You may not be willing to accept the verdict of the German court.
As regards the SC... It would depend how they define cleared. ...when even a court verdict after a full trial doesn't necessarily mean cleared

It seems even if the mccanns we're tried and found not guilty tjst would not amount to being clrared in some peoples eyes
Title: Re: If CB was found guilty would the McCanns be completely cleared?
Post by: Brietta on April 23, 2021, 11:03:58 AM
So if CB was found guilty of MMs abduction and murder.... Would that completely clear the McCanns?

If there had ever been the slightest doubt centring on Madeleine's parents, logic dictates the emergence of an individual packing the baggage carried by Brueckner being found guilty when the evidence is evaluated makes the answer to the question very plain indeed.

Or at least one would think so.

Then one must bear in mind that there are still those who are very set in their ways despite recognising the actuality.
(https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.BIw3gTUa0u6NQGMomgwZvAAAAA?pid=ImgDet&w=184&h=184&c=7&dpr=2.25)
Title: Re: If CB was found guilty would the McCanns be completely cleared?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on April 23, 2021, 11:06:55 AM

What evidence???

Just get back to me when Brueckner is convicted, or charged, or questioned even.
Title: Re: If CB was found guilty would the McCanns be completely cleared?
Post by: Eleanor on April 23, 2021, 11:08:39 AM
You already have predicted your response.  You may not be willing to accept the verdict of the German court.
As regards the SC... It would depend how they define cleared. ...when even a court verdict after a full trial doesn't necessarily mean cleared

It seems even if the mccanns we're tried and found not guilty tjst would not amount to being clrared in some peoples eyes

Cleared, Smeared.  Do me a favour.  The McCanns weren't even so much as arrested.  And after all of the colossal effort put in by The PJ to implicate them, you might think that was enough.
Title: Re: If CB was found guilty would the McCanns be completely cleared?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on April 23, 2021, 11:16:53 AM
Cleared, Smeared.  Do me a favour.  The McCanns weren't even so much as arrested.  And after all of the colossal effort put in by The PJ to implicate them, you might think that was enough.

But they were questioned as arguidos, whereas Brueckner hasn't even had so much as an informal chat with the BKA, which is remarkable when you consider the enormous weight of evidence against him.
Title: Re: If CB was found guilty would the McCanns be completely cleared?
Post by: Brietta on April 23, 2021, 11:24:19 AM
As you have acknowledged, someone's guilt or innocence is a matter of opinion, not necessarily of fact. I agree with the Supreme Court judges; the McCanns were not cleared by the archiving dispatch as has been claimed. I don't know if they are guilty or innocent of involvement in their daughter's disappearance, but I'm pretty sure they weren't eliminated. If CB is ever tried, I will do my best to understand the evidence and decide what I think about it. Until that happens I can't predict my response.

So when you boil it down, according to you everyone is guilty of everything anyone wishes to accuse them of whatever the evidence and without setting foot in a court of law where such decisions are normally taken.
Very strange.
Title: Re: If CB was found guilty would the McCanns be completely cleared?
Post by: G-Unit on April 23, 2021, 11:27:54 AM
You already have predicted your response.  You may not be willing to accept the verdict of the German court.
As regards the SC... It would depend how they define cleared. ...when even a court verdict after a full trial doesn't necessarily mean cleared

It seems even if the mccanns we're tried and found not guilty tjst would not amount to being clrared in some peoples eyes

Why should I accept the verdict of a court when others don't?

The SC judges didn't define 'cleared', they responded to the claims of the McCann's lawyer, who said they were;

"already cleared before through the filing dispatch of a criminal investigation" (page 40) http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7937.0

The judge's reply was;

"let not be said, too, that the appellants were cleared by the order of filing the criminal proceedings."
(page 70) http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7937.15
Title: Re: If CB was found guilty would the McCanns be completely cleared?
Post by: Eleanor on April 23, 2021, 11:34:47 AM
But they were questioned as arguidos, whereas Brueckner hasn't even had so much as an informal chat with the BKA, which is remarkable when you consider the enormous weight of evidence against him.

A lot of people were questioned as Arguidos.  Breuckner wasn't questioned at all.  Why was that, I wonder?

It has been left to Germany to sort out and they do things differently.  For a start they don't beat up suspects.
Title: Re: If CB was found guilty would the McCanns be completely cleared?
Post by: G-Unit on April 23, 2021, 11:35:15 AM
So when you boil it down, according to you everyone is guilty of everything anyone wishes to accuse them of whatever the evidence and without setting foot in a court of law where such decisions are normally taken.
Very strange.

I think you are offering your interpretation of what I said. I have declared no-one guilty of anything.

Some people, on the other hand, are happy to assert that the Ciprianos were innocent of murder and Goncalo Amaral was guilty of libel despite the decisions handed down by the courts.
Title: Re: If CB was found guilty would the McCanns be completely cleared?
Post by: Eleanor on April 23, 2021, 11:39:25 AM
I think you are offering your interpretation of what I said. I have declared no-one guilty of anything.

Some people, on the other hand, are happy to assert that the Ciprianos were innocent of murder and Goncalo Amaral was guilty of libel despite the decisions handed down by the courts.

Amaral was found Guilty of Perjury In Writing.  Or are you saying that he didn't do it?
Title: Re: If CB was found guilty would the McCanns be completely cleared?
Post by: Brietta on April 23, 2021, 11:41:51 AM
Cleared, Smeared.  Do me a favour.  The McCanns weren't even so much as arrested.  And after all of the colossal effort put in by The PJ to implicate them, you might think that was enough.

I find the sceptic logic on this subject nothing short of risible.

A corrupt Portuguese cop tried to use nonsense as evidence against the McCanns (the technique had already worked once against Leanore Cipriano).  A competent Portuguese investigation subsequently overturned the slurs and no charges were ever laid.

How is it possible to condemn the McCanns without accusation and without them ever setting foot in a court of law for the simple reason there was never any evidence to justify that.

Yet some members of a JUSTICE forum make the comments they do regarding this 🙄
Title: Re: If CB was found guilty would the McCanns be completely cleared?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on April 23, 2021, 11:46:54 AM
A lot of people were questioned as Arguidos.  Breuckner wasn't questioned at all.  Why was that, I wonder?

It has been left to Germany to sort out and they do things differently.  For a start they don't beat up suspects.

Because of the lack of evidence Maddie was abducted, other than her parents insistence & a discredited sighting of an abductor.
Title: Re: If CB was found guilty would the McCanns be completely cleared?
Post by: Brietta on April 23, 2021, 11:55:11 AM
I think you are offering your interpretation of what I said. I have declared no-one guilty of anything.

Some people, on the other hand, are happy to assert that the Ciprianos were innocent of murder and Goncalo Amaral was guilty of libel despite the decisions handed down by the courts.

In case you'd failed to notice - this is a discussion forum.

As such my opinion carries as much weight as yours and my honest interpretation of what you post is for me to decide as long as couched within forum rules.

If you are of the opinion that Leanore Cipriano had a fair trial ~ that is between you and your conscience.

I await with interest Goncalo Amaral's next book making the same claims his alleged freedom of speech enabled him to get away with in Portugal being published in English and sold in Britain.
I think we would then see exactly how a libel trial should be conducted.
Title: Re: If CB was found guilty would the McCanns be completely cleared?
Post by: Mr Gray on April 23, 2021, 12:08:30 PM
Why should I accept the verdict of a court when others don't?

The SC judges didn't define 'cleared', they responded to the claims of the McCann's lawyer, who said they were;

"already cleared before through the filing dispatch of a criminal investigation" (page 40) http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7937.0

The judge's reply was;

"let not be said, too, that the appellants were cleared by the order of filing the criminal proceedings."
(page 70) http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7937.15

I'm not asking to.  What I'm pointing out is that is basically impossible to completely cleared of any crime so it's absurd to use this as s stick to beat kkthe McCanns
As regards the archiving report I seem to recall that the SC said it was not evidence of innocence which to me is completely  wrong
Title: Re: If CB was found guilty would the McCanns be completely cleared?
Post by: G-Unit on April 23, 2021, 12:38:35 PM
I'm not asking to.  What I'm pointing out is that is basically impossible to completely cleared of any crime so it's absurd to use this as s stick to beat kkthe McCanns
As regards the archiving report I seem to recall that the SC said it was not evidence of innocence which to me is completely  wrong

Isabel Duarte claimed that the archiving dispatch cleared the McCanns, so she obviously didn't agree with you.

I expect you have a cite for your recall of what the SC judges said about the archiving report?
Title: Re: If CB was found guilty would the McCanns be completely cleared?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on April 23, 2021, 12:39:35 PM
I'm not asking to.  What I'm pointing out is that is basically impossible to completely cleared of any crime so it's absurd to use this as s stick to beat kkthe McCanns
As regards the archiving report I seem to recall that the SC said it was not evidence of innocence which to me is completely  wrong

If Maddie turned up alive & well & said "a paedo abducted me & my parents had nothing to do with it"

Just like that, McCanns cleared.
Title: Re: If CB was found guilty would the McCanns be completely cleared?
Post by: Mr Gray on April 23, 2021, 12:53:14 PM
Isabel Duarte claimed that the archiving dispatch cleared the McCanns, so she obviously didn't agree with you.

I expect you have a cite for your recall of what the SC judges said about the archiving report?

It would de pend how Duarte defined cleared...pg 70
Title: Re: If CB was found guilty would the McCanns be completely cleared?
Post by: Mr Gray on April 23, 2021, 12:59:05 PM
If Maddie turned up alive & well & said "a paedo abducted me & my parents had nothing to do with it"

Just like that, McCanns cleared.
Title: Re: If CB was found guilty would the McCanns be completely cleared?
Post by: Mr Gray on April 23, 2021, 01:07:32 PM
If Maddie turned up alive & well & said "a paedo abducted me & my parents had nothing to do with it"

Just like that, McCanns cleared.

She could be lying having been brainwashed... Or a clone
Title: Re: If CB was found guilty would the McCanns be completely cleared?
Post by: Brietta on April 23, 2021, 01:55:59 PM
If Maddie turned up alive & well & said "a paedo abducted me & my parents had nothing to do with it"

Just like that, McCanns cleared.

That would be brilliant were it to happen.  But I seriously doubt that Madeleine would be able to revisit the trauma of being separated from her siblings and parents to make much sense of their life changing events of 2007.
Title: Re: If CB was found guilty would the McCanns be completely cleared?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on April 23, 2021, 02:48:55 PM
If Maddie turned up alive & well & said "a paedo abducted me & my parents had nothing to do with it"

Just like that, McCanns cleared.
You are kidding of course.  You would simply say she was too young to remember the evening her parents sold her to the paedo.