UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Mr Gray on October 03, 2022, 04:51:21 PM
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Two claims
first he says he was not aware that the renault belonged to the McCanns
second he claimed Eddie had never made a false positive alert.
The first i find hard to beleive and the scond he cannot possibly know..
what does that say for the rest of his claims
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It was the only car in the parking lot that contained Poster of Missing Madeleine. Impossible to miss.
The rest of my opinion of Martin Grime is unprintable.
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It was the only car in the parking lot that contained Poster of Missing Madeleine. Impossible to miss.
The rest of my opinion of Martin Grime is unprintable.
A poster doesn't identify whose car it is.
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Yes but wasn't the key to the car marked - somewhere entirely different [away from the car]
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Yes but wasn't the key to the car marked - somewhere entirely different [away from the car]
If you know that much - you know the forensically proven reason for the key being "marked" had absolutely nothing to do with Madeleine.
Then again sadly, maybe you don't.
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If you know that much - you know the forensically proven reason for the key being "marked" had absolutely nothing to do with Madeleine.
Then again sadly, maybe you don't.
Why sadly.
Budget rental company.
In order to confirm that the dog had effectively 'marked' the car key, that was found in the
map/glove pocket on the side of the driver's door, at 04h13, that key was retrieved from the car
and concealed in a place far distant from the vehicle on parking level -3 of the underground car
park.
At 04h14, it was verified that the dog 'marked' the area of a sandbox [bucket of sand] of the Fire
System where the car key had been concealed beneath the sand.
At 04h50, a new inspection was performed by Eddy on the parking level -4 where the above car
key was concealed in an area far distant from the vehicle.
At 04h51, it was verified that the dog 'marked' the area of a sandbox [bucket of sand] of the Fire
System where the car key had been concealed beneath the sand.
... the present document has been duly signed:
2189 Results of Eddie's search in zones near ap
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Why sadly.
Budget rental company.
In order to confirm that the dog had effectively 'marked' the car key, that was found in the
map/glove pocket on the side of the driver's door, at 04h13, that key was retrieved from the car
and concealed in a place far distant from the vehicle on parking level -3 of the underground car
park.
At 04h14, it was verified that the dog 'marked' the area of a sandbox [bucket of sand] of the Fire
System where the car key had been concealed beneath the sand.
At 04h50, a new inspection was performed by Eddy on the parking level -4 where the above car
key was concealed in an area far distant from the vehicle.
At 04h51, it was verified that the dog 'marked' the area of a sandbox [bucket of sand] of the Fire
System where the car key had been concealed beneath the sand.
... the present document has been duly signed:
2189 Results of Eddie's search in zones near ap
I know the significance of the "marking" of the key fob and I understand the forensic lab's assessment.
I really think you are displaying great ignorance of the conclusions. And I truly find it sad that you seem to be unaware of that
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A poster doesn't identify whose car it is.
LOL. Yes, 'm sure it wouldn't have had any influence whatsoever on the handler - a carpark full of cars and he knows one of them is a car driven by the McCanns. He also knows (if he has had any prior passing interest in this case) that they have been driving around Portugal in a Renault Megane. Low and behold there in the car park is a Renault Megane plastered in "Find Madeleine" posters but how on earth would he know it was the McCanns car? Gimme a break!
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I know the significance of the "marking" of the key fob and I understand the forensic lab's assessment.
I really think you are displaying great ignorance of the conclusions. And I truly find it sad that you seem to be unaware of that
Well, how sad is that post?
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LOL. Yes, 'm sure it wouldn't have had any influence whatsoever on the handler - a carpark full of cars and he knows one of them is a car driven by the McCanns. He also knows (if he has had any prior passing interest in this case) that they have been driving around Portugal in a Renault Megane. Low and behold there in the car park is a Renault Megane plastered in "Find Madeleine" posters but how on earth would he know it was the McCanns car? Gimme a break!
"The vehicles, of which I did not know the owner details, were parked on an empty floor with 20-30 feMet between each...When passing a vehicle I now know to be hired and in the possession of the McCann family"
https://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm
Grime screened the vehicles on 6th of August. He had not been informed who they were associated with. When he wrote the above report he knew that the car his dogs alerted to was hired and was being used by the McCanns. The significant word is 'know'. He may have suspected, guessed or deduced anything, but he didn't know.
Whatever he may have suspected, guessed or deduced, his dog alerted, and that was not in his control.
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"The vehicles, of which I did not know the owner details, were parked on an empty floor with 20-30 feMet between each...When passing a vehicle I now know to be hired and in the possession of the McCann family"
https://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm
Grime screened the vehicles on 6th of August. He had not been informed who they were associated with. When he wrote the above report he knew that the car his dogs alerted to was hired and was being used by the McCanns. The significant word is 'know'. He may have suspected, guessed or deduced anything, but he didn't know.
Whatever he may have suspected, guessed or deduced, his dog alerted, and that was not in his control.
Oh dear. Semantics again. What an utterly pathetic defence of the obviously indefensible.
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Oh dear. Semantics again. What an utterly pathetic defence of the obviously indefensible.
What an utterly pathetic defense of your unfounded assertions.
"These days, you're likely to hear someone accuse a debate partner of "just arguing semantics," which, if you think about it, means their debate partner is "just arguing about meaning," which you would think is, like, the point of arguing in the first place?..."'It's just semantics' is a common retort people use when arguing their point. What they mean is that their argument or opinion is more valid than the other person's."
https://people.howstuffworks.com/semantics.htm
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"The vehicles, of which I did not know the owner details, were parked on an empty floor with 20-30 feMet between each...When passing a vehicle I now know to be hired and in the possession of the McCann family"
https://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm
Grime screened the vehicles on 6th of August. He had not been informed who they were associated with. When he wrote the above report he knew that the car his dogs alerted to was hired and was being used by the McCanns. The significant word is 'know'. He may have suspected, guessed or deduced anything, but he didn't know.
Whatever he may have suspected, guessed or deduced, his dog alerted, and that was not in his control.
The significant word is... Now..
If he didn't realise its a good job he's a dog handler because he'd be a cr*p detective
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What an utterly pathetic defense of your unfounded assertions.
"These days, you're likely to hear someone accuse a debate partner of "just arguing semantics," which, if you think about it, means their debate partner is "just arguing about meaning," which you would think is, like, the point of arguing in the first place?..."'It's just semantics' is a common retort people use when arguing their point. What they mean is that their argument or opinion is more valid than the other person's."
https://people.howstuffworks.com/semantics.htm
What unfounded assertions?
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The significant word is... Now..
If he didn't realise its a good job he's a dog handler because he'd be a cr*p detective
It makes you wonder why he felt the need to make the claim that he didn’t know the car plastered in Madeleine posters was the McCanns’ in the first place. Methink the Dog Handler doth protest too much.
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The significant word is... Now..
If he didn't realise its a good job he's a dog handler because he'd be a cr*p detective
Isn’t it ‘know’ ?
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What unfounded assertions?
Founded on your beliefs rather than on verifiable facts.
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Isn’t it ‘know’ ?
No
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Founded on your beliefs rather than on verifiable facts.
again, what unfounded assertions?
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I just watched the video again. It’s interesting how excited GRIME seems as soon as he comes up to the McCanns’ car and after Eddie has scampered away. His voice is twice as loud when calling Eddie back as it was up until that point in the walk through of the other cars.
Note: this is not an unfounded assertion, it’s an observation based on fact.
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I just watched the video again. It’s interesting how excited GRIME seems as soon as he comes up to the McCanns’ car and after Eddie has scampered away. His voice is twice as loud when calling Eddie back as it was up until that point in the walk through of the other cars.
Note: this is not an unfounded assertion, it’s an observation based on fact.
So grime's on the hitlist along with GA. @)(++(*
God forbid there was a conspiracy....or was they all just doing their jobs.
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So grime's on the hitlist along with GA. @)(++(*
God forbid there was a conspiracy....or was they all just doing their jobs.
No conspiracy, just bias, unconscious or not. In my observational opinion (not assertion).
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So grime's on the hitlist along with GA. @)(++(*
God forbid there was a conspiracy....or was they all just doing their jobs.
What job was grime doing.....Dog handler or CEO oh his cadaver dog company
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I just watched the video again. It’s interesting how excited GRIME seems as soon as he comes up to the McCanns’ car and after Eddie has scampered away. His voice is twice as loud when calling Eddie back as it was up until that point in the walk through of the other cars.
Note: this is not an unfounded assertion, it’s an observation based on fact.
Must agree, it was a bit of a sham really.
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No conspiracy, just bias, unconscious or not. In my observational opinion (not assertion).
Why would he have shown bias?
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Why would he have shown bias?
As I recall Grime was tested for confirmation bias and said the result was exactly the one he expected
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As I recall Grime was tested for confirmation bias and said the result was exactly the one he expected
I’d appreciate it if you could provide further details of the above?
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As I recall Grime was tested for confirmation bias and said the result was exactly the one he expected
*Tumbleweed*
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Why would he have shown bias?
Who knows. The only way that that search could have been carried out without any possibility of bias unconscious or otherwise is if the handler simply had no clue whatsoever that the car he loudly called his dog back to was the one used by the McCanns. But as it was, there were big glaring clues all over it, not to mention the fact that this car was already a well known part of the McCann saga. Now tell me that there is no such thing as handler bias in the use of sniffer dogs.
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Who knows. The only way that that search could have been carried out without any possibility of bias unconscious or otherwise is if the handler simply had no clue whatsoever that the car he loudly called his dog back to was the one used by the McCanns. But as it was, there were big glaring clues all over it, not to mention the fact that this car was already a well known part of the McCann saga. Now tell me that there is no such thing as handler bias in the use of sniffer dogs.
What did Grimes have to gain? He already had the gig…and any publicity that was generated by it for his new venture. In fact the alerts without forensic corroboration ( which Grime would know wouldn’t be forthcoming if the alerts were manufactured) would have harmed rather than helped his new venture.
It simply doesn’t make sense.
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What did Grimes have to gain? He already had the gig…and any publicity that was generated by it for his new venture. In fact the alerts without forensic corroboration ( which Grime would know wouldn’t be forthcoming if the alerts were manufactured) would have harmed rather than helped his new venture.
It simply doesn’t make sense.
His name is Grime and I never claimed the alerts were manufactured.
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What did Grimes have to gain? He already had the gig…and any publicity that was generated by it for his new venture. In fact the alerts without forensic corroboration ( which Grime would know wouldn’t be forthcoming if the alerts were manufactured) would have harmed rather than helped his new venture.
It simply doesn’t make sense.
What does HCW have to gain from making CB a "patsy"? And yet some people think that is exactly what he is doing. If he can't provide the evidence to secure a conviction then he looks incompetent or malicious, does that make any sense to you?
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His name is Grime and I never claimed the alerts were manufactured.
So you must believe that Grimes bias was subconscious?
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What does HCW have to gain from making CB a "patsy"? And yet some people think that is exactly what he is doing. If he can't provide the evidence to secure a conviction then he looks incompetent or malicious, does that make any sense to you?
I don’t think he is settling Brueckner up as a patsy so perhaps ask someone who does think that?
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So you must believe that Grimes bias was subconscious?
I don’t have a firm belief in any direction, simply that because the car was plastered in Madeleine posters that bias, unconscious or not cannot be ruled out. And for Grime to say he didn’t know the car was the McCanns is simply laughable.
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I don’t think he is settling Brueckner up as a patsy so perhaps ask someone who does think that?
Why do you think he’s going after CB for Madeleine’s murder then? Because unless he has very compelling evidence then my point remains.
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I’d appreciate it if you could provide further details of the above?
Then you're not as smart as you think you are
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Why do you think he’s going after CB for Madeleine’s murder then? Because unless he has very compelling evidence then my point remains.
Focusing on a suspect to the exclusion of all others does not mean that compelling evidence exists but simply that the police force believe that there is evidence to be found.
Most miscarriages of justice begin in this way.
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Then you're not as smart as you think you are
I think you displaying a sense of humour caught her somewhat off guard.
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Then you're not as smart as you think you are
Can you provide details?
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Can you provide details?
Davel did a funny about confirmation bias but I'm afraid it flew right over you.
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Davel did a funny about confirmation bias but I'm afraid it flew right over you.
I'm glad someone understands
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Davel did a funny about confirmation bias but I'm afraid it flew right over you.
The man is a comic genius but I prefer not to get deflected from the point.
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Focusing on a suspect to the exclusion of all others does not mean that compelling evidence exists but simply that the police force believe that there is evidence to be found.
Most miscarriages of justice begin in this way.
you’re missing the point completely but never mind.
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The man is a comic genius but I prefer not to get deflected from the point.
Lol, that’s your excuse and you’re sticking with it.
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you’re missing the point completely but never mind.
I’m not and you know it.
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What did Grimes have to gain? He already had the gig…and any publicity that was generated by it for his new venture. In fact the alerts without forensic corroboration ( which Grime would know wouldn’t be forthcoming if the alerts were manufactured) would have harmed rather than helped his new venture.
It simply doesn’t make sense.
It seems there are some people who are so significant in this case that countless hours have been devoted over the last 15 years to discrediting them.
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I’m not and you know it.
Rubbish and you know it.
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It seems there are some people who are so significant in this case that countless hours have been devoted over the last 15 years to discrediting them.
Grime and his dogs are completely and utterly irrelevant now, but we have to talk about something and one of you moderators must have authorised this thread so…
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Grime and his dogs are completely and utterly irrelevant now, but we have to talk about something and one of you moderators must have authorised this thread so…
Fifteen years of moaning about something that's irrelevant.........
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Fifteen years of moaning about something that's irrelevant.........
I’m not moaning. Anyway, how is it any worse than spending 15 years moaning about child neglect and trying to discredit the statements of the McCanns and their friends?
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I’m not moaning. Anyway, how is it any worse than spending 15 years moaning about child neglect and trying to discredit the statements of the McCanns and their friends?
Gunit's twisted logic again.
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I’m not moaning. Anyway, how is it any worse than spending 15 years moaning about child neglect and trying to discredit the statements of the McCanns and their friends?
What did Grime know? We don't know. We know that the McCann children were left home alone though, her parents admitted it.
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It seems there are some people who are so significant in this case that countless hours have been devoted over the last 15 years to discrediting them.
I'm interested in the truth.. You should admire that
I have a lot of doubts about Grime and the alerts... All based on facts.
I've said before and it's 100 % true... If the dogs are as good as Grime made out they were.... Then 100 % Maddie died in the apartment and the McCanns covered it up... No doubt... But Grime now says Eddie was not a reliable cadaver dog..... My opinion.. Based on evidence... Alerts total and complete BS
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Let's look at the facts... Since 2007..what has Grime and his alerts contributed to the justice system... 15 years
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Well, I'm far from convinced D'Andre Lane wasn't carjacked by child abducting black guys.
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According to amaral.. Grime and his dogs solved 200 cases before 2007...since..bu**er all lol
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What did Grime know? We don't know. We know that the McCann children were left home alone though, her parents admitted it.
Do you know what the McCanns know? No. This is a really silly argument. Let’s get back on track. How credible are Grime’s claims? He claimed not to know that the Megane covered in Madeleine stickers was the McCanns. Is that credible? Not to any reasonable person, no.
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Well, I'm far from convinced D'Andre Lane wasn't carjacked by child abducting black guys.
Why.. Because Grimes dog barked at the only car that had a child seat in... Or because all the evidence points to Lane being guilty.. Come on.. You're a clever bloke.. Lane would have been convicted without grime and his performing dog... Bark if you sgree
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Why.. Because Grimes dog barked at the only car that had a child seat in... Or because all the evidence points to Lane being guilty.. Come on.. You're a clever bloke.. Lane would have been convicted without grime and his performing dog... Bark if you sgree
https://uk.linkedin.com/in/martin-grime-9724a78
Very impressive.
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https://uk.linkedin.com/in/martin-grime-9724a78
Very impressive.
All written by grime himself.. Lol
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All written by grime himself.. Lol
If there’s anything untrue I’m sure that you’ll be able to point it out.
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If there’s anything untrue I’m sure that you’ll be able to point it out.
You said it's impressive... What's impressive about offering your professional services free of charge..
Its not what's said its what's not said
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You said it's impressive... What's impressive about offering your professional services free of charge..
Its not what's said its what's not said
Is there anything untrue in the link I posted?
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Is there anything untrue in the link I posted?
You need to understand when you are listening to a sales pitch rather than a factual account
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You need to understand when you are listening to a sales pitch rather than a factual account
Then you’ll be able to show me where he’s listed a role he has not carried out.
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Then you’ll be able to show me where he’s listed a role he has not carried out.
You have totally missed the point
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You have totally missed the point
again!
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You have totally missed the point
It’s self promotion but what has Grime claimed that isn’t true? Or is his expertise as extensive as he claims?
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It’s self promotion but what has Grime claimed that isn’t true? Or is his expertise as extensive as he claims?
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Nothing then.
Excellent.
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It’s self promotion but what has Grime claimed that isn’t true? Or is his expertise as extensive as he claims?
Grime is a dog hendler. You don't have to be very bright to be a dog hendler perhaps he believes the junk he's claiming
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https://uk.linkedin.com/in/martin-grime-9724a78
Very impressive.
Makes you wonder why he jacked in the lucrative cadaver dog business to concentrate on puppy training courses for the general public.
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Grime is a dog hendler. You don't have to be very bright to be a dog hendler perhaps he believes the junk he's claiming
Do you mean handler?
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Makes you wonder why he jacked in the lucrative cadaver dog business to concentrate on puppy training courses for the general public.
Getting too old for all the globetrotting perhaps?
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Getting too old for all the globetrotting perhaps?
Is there no call for his amazing crime-busting, never wrong in a billion barks services in the UK anymore? Pity.
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Is there no call for his amazing crime-busting, never wrong in a billion barks services in the UK anymore? Pity.
I’m sure there’ll be others to pick up the mantle.
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I’m sure there’ll be others to pick up the mantle.
In all seriousness if these dogs were so pinpoint accurate and their alerts indisputable they would IMO be far more widely used. Think of the time and effort they could save the judicial system. Take a dog into the home of a suspected murderer and if it alerts then simply arrest and convict without bothering with all the boring costly trial stuff in between. .
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In all seriousness if these dogs were so pinpoint accurate and their alerts indisputable they would IMO be far more widely used. Think of the time and effort they could save the judicial system. Take a dog into the home of a suspected murderer and if it alerts then simply arrest and convict without bothering with all the boring costly trial stuff in between. .
This of course is what it's all about. Do away with Trials. But only for some.
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The dog alert indications MUST be corroborated if to establish their findings as evidence.
Therefore in this particular case, as no human remains were located, the only alert indications
that may become corroborated are those that the CSI dog indicated by forensic laboratory analysis.
https://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm
Any alert has to be corroborated before presenting it as evidence and that is clearly stated in Grime's report.
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I had to chuckle before. Cmomm user posted about gerrys statement calling the dogs unreliable then question who is unreliable. And in the statement they made went onto saying they had a 100 percent track record in over 200 cases lol, this person can not fathom their own irony.
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The dog alert indications MUST be corroborated if to establish their findings as evidence.
Therefore in this particular case, as no human remains were located, the only alert indications
that may become corroborated are those that the CSI dog indicated by forensic laboratory analysis.
https://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm
Any alert has to be corroborated before presenting it as evidence and that is clearly stated in Grime's report.
Exactly, their is no indication of a track record by percentage.
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In the Bianca Jones case, Grime was called in just 2 days after the toddler's disappearance. His cadaver dog Morse was tasked to screen a vehicle line-up which included D'Andre's silver Mercury.
In Netflix "Exhibit A cadaver dogs" there was some footage of this screening. You can clearly see there is a note on the screen of the silver car and the child car seat was still inside. Morse alerted to that same car & later the car seat.
Bianca has never been found either.
(Images courtesy of Mr Delorean on Twitter)
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Muriel_McKay
Why hasn’t a cadaver dog found this woman’s body, the vicinity of her burial location has even been id’ed by the man who kidnapped her?
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Oh dear. Semantics again. What an utterly pathetic defence of the obviously indefensible.
I don't believe it was semantics. Grimes conducted his work with the dogs, in this case, with great professionalism and claims that he somehow encouraged alerts are just clutching at straws in my opinion. The alerts by both Eddie and Keela (and the facts about where they did and did not alert) are highly suggestive that a dead body was present in apartment 5A and that bodily fluids from a dead body were present in the McCann's hire car and on some items of clothing belonging to the McCanns. Forensic testing of these human bodily fluids was not conclusive as to the origin but they did contain 15 DNA markers in common with Madeleine (which I know is not conclusive). Furthermore some of the samples collected for forensic examination contained DNA from more than one source which complicates things further.
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I don't believe it was semantics. Grimes conducted his work with the dogs, in this case, with great professionalism and claims that he somehow encouraged alerts are just clutching at straws in my opinion. The alerts by both Eddie and Keela (and the facts about where they did and did not alert) are highly suggestive that a dead body was present in apartment 5A and that bodily fluids from a dead body were present in the McCann's hire car and on some items of clothing belonging to the McCanns. Forensic testing of these human bodily fluids was not conclusive as to the origin but they did contain 15 DNA markers in common with Madeleine (which I know is not conclusive). Furthermore some of the samples collected for forensic examination contained DNA from more than one source which complicates things further.
If you press Chat GPT enough with very pointed questions, you get it to proffer a pointed answer:
While the specific names or details of the 15 DNA markers matched to Madeleine McCann have not been publicly released in full by authorities, forensic DNA testing typically includes the analysis of 15 or more STR markers to establish an individual's DNA profile. The more markers that are matched, the higher the probability of identifying the individual, and a match at 15 markers would be statistically significant.
In general, the 15 STR markers would have been selected for their ability to distinguish individuals, and a match at those loci would have suggested that the bodily fluids found in the apartment were very likely to belong to Madeleine McCann—or at least that there was a strong genetic link. However, the match was not considered conclusive by the investigators, because mitochondrial DNA and other factors (like the possibility of contamination) complicated the interpretation.