UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Martha on April 20, 2013, 07:02:16 PM
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When the Scotland Yard Review is completed and the McCanns continue to walk free, are neither arrested nor charged with any crime - what then for you and your campaign? Will you finally accept that there is no evidence of any crime committed by the McCanns or will you switch into full [ censored word ] mode and claim the McCanns are being protected by the UK authorities?
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When the Scotland Yard Review is completed and the McCanns continue to walk free, are neither arrested nor charged with any crime - what then for you and your campaign? Will you finally accept that there is no evidence of any crime committed by the McCanns or will you switch into full [ censored word ] mode and claim the McCanns are being protected by the UK authorities?
Martha, you and other consistently talk of a campaign. There may be one by some quarters, perhaps,but it is not for you to declare that any 'doubter' of 'anything' is part of any campaign. As for your question, it cannot be answered really, until the review conclusions have been made public, and IIRC, the Met said they might not be. Till then....
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valid question
my take: the detractors can't help themselves - they need to put the knife in whatever NSY concludes.
Reminds me a bit about the story of the Japanese soldier who was told to guard the bridge - and was found decades after the end of WWII - still guarding said bridge
learned behaviour rather than free thought - the detractors are by and large Pavlov's dogs
scary
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I was going to start a thread about the Scotland Yard review, funnilyn enough ... you beat me to it Martha
What will happen if Scotland Yard concludes, based on the evidence they have reviewed, that Madeleine was abducted
Not because they have uncovered any new evidence ... but purely based on the evidence that already existed when the Portuguese police shelved the case
They can hardly demand that Portugal re-opens the case ... not without compelling new evidence
So what will happen ?
Will the British police take up the investigation themselves ? I mean they could hardly declare a British child to be 'abducted' and then just shrug their shoulders in a "nuthin to do with me guv" way ... could they ?
( I didn't mean to take your thread off topic Martha, but I just wondered if anyone knew the answer to this )
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@ Martha
If SY fail to identify an abductor or indeed clear evidence of what happened to Madeleine then suspicion cannot, and should not, be lifted in relation to her parents.
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Good question icabodcrane.
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When the Scotland Yard Review is completed and the McCanns continue to walk free, are neither arrested nor charged with any crime - what then for you and your campaign? Will you finally accept that there is no evidence of any crime committed by the McCanns or will you switch into full [ censored word ] mode and claim the McCanns are being protected by the UK authorities?
Martha, you and other consistently talk of a campaign. There may be one by some quarters, perhaps,but it is not for you to declare that any 'doubter' of 'anything' is part of any campaign. As for your question, it cannot be answered really, until the review conclusions have been made public, and IIRC, the Met said they might not be. Till then....
Undoubtedly there is a campaign - first there was the Bennett campaign and his Madeleine Foundation, with meetings and leaflets and the like, now we have the activities of the HiDiHo individual, her video crusade and facebook efforts to recruit members to the Anti McCann cause - whether or not you are a part of the organised campaign is by the by - it obviously exists.
So, you are unable to imagine how you might feel about the fact that the McCann will almost certainly continue to walk free after the SY Review ends?
No, it is embedded in your OP that any skeptic is part of a campaign, so not getting away with that one!
8((()*/
That is one of the major problems that some so called pro mccanns have, they will read a nasty tweet or objectionable post and then proceed at will to blacken every single person who has has some doubts and questions and criticisms with the exaxt same brush, hardly normal, fair or truthful by any stretch, debunker poster on here is the perfect odious example
as to how I would personally feel once the Met Police have finished their review, as I said, we will wait and see what they say, if anything. BUT if they say anything which I KNOW to be false from reading the files, well,..If they come up with fresh evidence for an abduction, likewise, I will take notice
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I was going to start a thread about the Scotland Yard review, funnilyn enough ... you beat me to it Martha
What will happen if Scotland Yard concludes, based on the evidence they have reviewed, that Madeleine was abducted
Not because they have uncovered any new evidence ... but purely based on the evidence that already existed when the Portuguese police shelved the case
They can hardly demand that Portugal re-opens the case ... not without compelling new evidence
So what will happen ?
Will the British police take up the investigation themselves ? I mean they could hardly declare a British child to be 'abducted' and then just shrug their shoulders in a "nuthin to do with me guv" way ... could they ?
( I didn't mean to take your thread off topic Martha, but I just wondered if anyone knew the answer to this )
No problem. I don't know the answer I'm afraid. How will you feel if that does indeed transpire to be their conclusion? Will you accept it or will you continue to suspect the parents?
I don't think anyone should just 'accept' it, if Scotland Yard suspect an abduction
Madeleine is a British child, and if British police declare that they believe she was snatched from her bed by an abductor, then they bloody well better keep on investigating until they find out who abducted her, and catch him
It would be a disgrace if they just said that they think she was abducted and that's that, review over, the end
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Be a waste of 4m quid if thats all they said
>@@(*&)
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I was going to start a thread about the Scotland Yard review, funnilyn enough ... you beat me to it Martha
What will happen if Scotland Yard concludes, based on the evidence they have reviewed, that Madeleine was abducted
Not because they have uncovered any new evidence ... but purely based on the evidence that already existed when the Portuguese police shelved the case
They can hardly demand that Portugal re-opens the case ... not without compelling new evidence
So what will happen ?
Will the British police take up the investigation themselves ? I mean they could hardly declare a British child to be 'abducted' and then just shrug their shoulders in a "nuthin to do with me guv" way ... could they ?
( I didn't mean to take your thread off topic Martha, but I just wondered if anyone knew the answer to this )
Good question.
Perhaps it will depend on the strength of any major red flags and potential interconnections as to whether the prosecutor decides to reopen it or not. I've wondered what would happen if there is just a list of question marks of people / points that had not been thoroughly investigated but without any major red flag...
Otherwise, perhaps having a proper database will help the police to crosscheck details when investigating other crimes (if the database operates as a system).
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I don't think anyone should just 'accept' it, if Scotland Yard suspect an abduction
Madeleine is a British child, and if British police declare that they believe she was snatched from her bed by an abductor, then they bloody well better keep on investigating until they find out who abducted her, and catch him
It would be a disgrace if they just said that they think she was abducted and that's that, review over, the end
I don't know if UK hands would be tied legally or not. A bit of a difficult situation.
I'm not even sure what the current legal framework is concerning the review... Is a prosecutor following it? It seems to be a bit of a grey area at the moment.
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I don't think anyone should just 'accept' it, if Scotland Yard suspect an abduction
Madeleine is a British child, and if British police declare that they believe she was snatched from her bed by an abductor, then they bloody well better keep on investigating until they find out who abducted her, and catch him
It would be a disgrace if they just said that they think she was abducted and that's that, review over, the end
I don't know if UK hands would be tied legally or not. A bit of a difficult situation.
I'm not even sure what the current legal framework is concerning the review... Is a prosecutor following it? It seems to be a bit of a grey area at the moment.
PT is a sovereign nation - the disappearance happened on PT soil
NSY can advise until the cows come home
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I don't think anyone should just 'accept' it, if Scotland Yard suspect an abduction
Madeleine is a British child, and if British police declare that they believe she was snatched from her bed by an abductor, then they bloody well better keep on investigating until they find out who abducted her, and catch him
It would be a disgrace if they just said that they think she was abducted and that's that, review over, the end
I don't know if UK hands would be tied legally or not. A bit of a difficult situation.
I'm not even sure what the current legal framework is concerning the review... Is a prosecutor following it? It seems to be a bit of a grey area at the moment.
I think the Uk can bring a charge on someone here if a crime was committed abroad, but only for rape murder or manslaughter
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I don't think anyone should just 'accept' it, if Scotland Yard suspect an abduction
Madeleine is a British child, and if British police declare that they believe she was snatched from her bed by an abductor, then they bloody well better keep on investigating until they find out who abducted her, and catch him
It would be a disgrace if they just said that they think she was abducted and that's that, review over, the end
I don't know if UK hands would be tied legally or not. A bit of a difficult situation.
I'm not even sure what the current legal framework is concerning the review... Is a prosecutor following it? It seems to be a bit of a grey area at the moment.
I think the Uk can bring a charge on someone here if a crime was committed abroad, but only for rape murder or manslaughter
you 'think' ?????
cites please
for you it needs to be rape,murder or manslaughter - nothing less will do, eh?
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when you google for the facts of how and when uk authorities can prosecute people here who have committed a crime abroad, and finding out it has nothing to do with me,or your opinion of me, iimay, may consider conversing, till then...thats the problem with some of you lot, everything is personal and facts mean nothing >@@(*&)
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I don't think anyone should just 'accept' it, if Scotland Yard suspect an abduction
Madeleine is a British child, and if British police declare that they believe she was snatched from her bed by an abductor, then they bloody well better keep on investigating until they find out who abducted her, and catch him
It would be a disgrace if they just said that they think she was abducted and that's that, review over, the end
I don't know if UK hands would be tied legally or not. A bit of a difficult situation.
I'm not even sure what the current legal framework is concerning the review... Is a prosecutor following it? It seems to be a bit of a grey area at the moment.
PT is a sovereign nation - the disappearance happened on PT soil
NSY can advise until the cows come home
I know. To reopen it, they need new evidence that is likely to lead the investigation to a conclusion, but if no one is seriously checking out any potential new information, it won't happen.
Hence the hope that the review will throw up some red flags, but I would have thought that they would need to be actionable - which may not be easy 6 years later.
I can't imagine, if a prosecutor is overseeing the review, that a hypothetical dangerous person who was around at the time but fell through the net would not be investigated as the review progresses. At least I hope not. But does that require formally reopening the case in order to make enquiries?
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All suspicious people were investigated at the time, its only the Mccanns who have flagged them up again as suspects
And the newspapers, and their PR merchant lying about things
>@@(*&)
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I don't think anyone should just 'accept' it, if Scotland Yard suspect an abduction
Madeleine is a British child, and if British police declare that they believe she was snatched from her bed by an abductor, then they bloody well better keep on investigating until they find out who abducted her, and catch him
It would be a disgrace if they just said that they think she was abducted and that's that, review over, the end
I don't know if UK hands would be tied legally or not. A bit of a difficult situation.
I'm not even sure what the current legal framework is concerning the review... Is a prosecutor following it? It seems to be a bit of a grey area at the moment.
I think the Uk can bring a charge on someone here if a crime was committed abroad, but only for rape murder or manslaughter
I'm checking - that's what I thought as well.
There's this re sex offences against children, but the perpetrator would have to be a UK citizen or resident:
— Sexual Offences (Conspiracy and Incitement) Act 1996, Sex Offenders Act 1997, Criminal Justice (Terrorism and Conspiracy) Act 1998, Sexual Offences Act 1956
Description
Schedule II of the Sex Offenders Act 1997 gives courts in the United Kingdom jurisdiction to prosecute UK citizens and residents who commit sex offences against children abroad. This law applies to British citizens and residents, and is applicable even where the person in question was not a British citizen or UK resident at the time of the offence but has subsequently become one. The Sexual Offences (Conspiracy and Incitement) Act 1996 makes it an offence for a person in the UK (under any circumstances outlined above) to incite others to commit a child sex offence abroad, or to conspire to do so. Therefore, it covers, for example, tour operators who organize travel abroad for the purpose of sex tourism.
Double criminality is required in England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.
If a person has been convicted or acquitted of a crime in another country, they cannot be prosecuted for the same crime in the UK.
http://www.thefuturegroup.org/youwillbecaught/law_UK.html
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Unless they can identify a possible suspect then there won't be much they can do. Although putting all possible leads into a computer programme could point to a route or a direction, it will be very difficult to come up with any names. But I suppose it might point to a destination. Or they might track down someone else who saw Madeleine en route.
SY probably wouldn't be allowed to investigate in Portugal, or even in other foreign countries, but they can liaise with other Police Forces.
Sorry if that is garbled, I am just rambling some thoughts around. Finding new evidence after all this time was always going to be difficult, but someone has to try.
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thanks Carana, I never said I was an expert on the matter, just reiterated what I have read in general about what crimes canbe prosecuted here if committed abroad
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Oh dear, everyone's lying and being dishonest to Redblossom
it is a fact that ........... .............. has lied and it is a fact that newspapers have printed lies and twisted evidence, you might not want to believe it but that is YOUR problem,its not anyone elses mich, most intelligent people KNOW this to be the truth, your gas mark has just been turned off
8-)(--)
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thanks Carana, I never said I was an expert on the matter, just reiterated what I have read in general about what crimes canbe prosecuted here if committed abroad
My question is still how can the UK proceed if a suspected perp in need of more serious investigation was a non-UK resident for a serious crime committed overseas? I'm not sure they could...
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thanks Carana, I never said I was an expert on the matter, just reiterated what I have read in general about what crimes canbe prosecuted here if committed abroad
My question is still how can the UK proceed if a suspected perp in need of more serious investigation was a non-UK resident for a serious crime committed overseas? I'm not sure they could...
they cant unless the portuguese reopen the case IMO in my understanding etc
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thanks Carana, I never said I was an expert on the matter, just reiterated what I have read in general about what crimes canbe prosecuted here if committed abroad
My question is still how can the UK proceed if a suspected perp in need of more serious investigation was a non-UK resident for a serious crime committed overseas? I'm not sure they could...
They couldn't. SY would have to engage the police force of that country. All of whom I'm sure would help.
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thanks Carana, I never said I was an expert on the matter, just reiterated what I have read in general about what crimes canbe prosecuted here if committed abroad
My question is still how can the UK proceed if a suspected perp in need of more serious investigation was a non-UK resident for a serious crime committed overseas? I'm not sure they could...
NSY have gone to great pains to show that PT has juristiction on PT matters - as it should be
so there'll be advice and warm tea from NSY
nothing more/nothing less
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Unless they can identify a possible suspect then there won't be much they can do. Although putting all possible leads into a computer programme could point to a route or a direction, it will be very difficult to come up with any names. But I suppose it might point to a destination. Or they might track down someone else who saw Madeleine en route.
SY probably wouldn't be allowed to investigate in Portugal, or even in other foreign countries, but they can liaise with other Police Forces.
Sorry if that is garbled, I am just rambling some thoughts around. Finding new evidence after all this time was always going to be difficult, but someone has to try.
But who has the lead (and authority) to initiate liaison with foreign police forces if the case is not reopened?
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Unless they can identify a possible suspect then there won't be much they can do. Although putting all possible leads into a computer programme could point to a route or a direction, it will be very difficult to come up with any names. But I suppose it might point to a destination. Or they might track down someone else who saw Madeleine en route.
SY probably wouldn't be allowed to investigate in Portugal, or even in other foreign countries, but they can liaise with other Police Forces.
Sorry if that is garbled, I am just rambling some thoughts around. Finding new evidence after all this time was always going to be difficult, but someone has to try.
But who has the lead (and authority) to initiate liaison with foreign police forces if the case is not reopened?
Any movement has to come from Lisbon
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Unless they can identify a possible suspect then there won't be much they can do. Although putting all possible leads into a computer programme could point to a route or a direction, it will be very difficult to come up with any names. But I suppose it might point to a destination. Or they might track down someone else who saw Madeleine en route.
SY probably wouldn't be allowed to investigate in Portugal, or even in other foreign countries, but they can liaise with other Police Forces.
Sorry if that is garbled, I am just rambling some thoughts around. Finding new evidence after all this time was always going to be difficult, but someone has to try.
But who has the lead (and authority) to initiate liaison with foreign police forces if the case is not reopened?
Someone in authority at SY has to go to the foreign police force and say that this is what they think happened , and why.
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Unless they can identify a possible suspect then there won't be much they can do. Although putting all possible leads into a computer programme could point to a route or a direction, it will be very difficult to come up with any names. But I suppose it might point to a destination. Or they might track down someone else who saw Madeleine en route.
SY probably wouldn't be allowed to investigate in Portugal, or even in other foreign countries, but they can liaise with other Police Forces.
Sorry if that is garbled, I am just rambling some thoughts around. Finding new evidence after all this time was always going to be difficult, but someone has to try.
But who has the lead (and authority) to initiate liaison with foreign police forces if the case is not reopened?
Someone in authority at SY has to go to the foreign police force and say that this is what they think happened , and why.
That ain't going to happen-
Cameron green lighted the NSY review - thus the whole review is a political issue
and even if a UK copper found a smoking gun - he'd still have to clear disclosure with Nr. 10
sad, sobering and maybe cruel - but such is life
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Unless they can identify a possible suspect then there won't be much they can do. Although putting all possible leads into a computer programme could point to a route or a direction, it will be very difficult to come up with any names. But I suppose it might point to a destination. Or they might track down someone else who saw Madeleine en route.
SY probably wouldn't be allowed to investigate in Portugal, or even in other foreign countries, but they can liaise with other Police Forces.
Sorry if that is garbled, I am just rambling some thoughts around. Finding new evidence after all this time was always going to be difficult, but someone has to try.
But who has the lead (and authority) to initiate liaison with foreign police forces if the case is not reopened?
Someone in authority at SY has to go to the foreign police force and say that this is what they think happened , and why.
That ain't going to happen-
Cameron green lighted the NSY review - thus the whole review is a political issue
and even if a UK copper found a smoking gun - he'd still have to clear disclosure with Nr. 10
sad, sobering and maybe cruel - but such is life
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I don't think anyone should just 'accept' it, if Scotland Yard suspect an abduction
Madeleine is a British child, and if British police declare that they believe she was snatched from her bed by an abductor, then they bloody well better keep on investigating until they find out who abducted her, and catch him
It would be a disgrace if they just said that they think she was abducted and that's that, review over, the end
If you want the honest truth, they have neither the time , the manpower, the resources or the legal right to go traipsing throughout Europe and North Africa looking for Madeleine McCann.
That I'm afraid is the be-all and end-all of it.
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Someone in authority at SY has to go to the foreign police force and say that this is what they think happened , and why.
Fact is Eleanor, foreign governments don't like interference in their domestic affairs.
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Someone in authority at SY has to go to the foreign police force and say that this is what they think happened , and why.
Fact is Eleanor, foreign governments don't like interference in their domestic affairs.
No, I know they don't. I just don't want to completely give up. Someone out there knows something.
You see, Scotland Yard, or The Government, had to do something. The Portuguese investigation was a cock up, why doesn't matter, but no country, let alone Britain can just sit by and do nothing when one of it's citizens gets abducted abroad.
Call it a PR Exercise if you like, but they have to be seen to be at least trying.
No, I don't think about Madeleine 24/7. But I do mind very much about the lies and the abuse inflicted on The McCanns by anyone, not least people from their own country.
This is a moral miscarriage of justice.
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Someone in authority at SY has to go to the foreign police force and say that this is what they think happened , and why.
Fact is Eleanor, foreign governments don't like interference in their domestic affairs.
No, I know they don't. I just don't want to completely give up. Someone out there knows something.
You see, Scotland Yard, or The Government, had to do something. The Portuguese investigation was a cock up, why doesn't matter, but no country, let alone Britain can just sit by and do nothing when one of it's citizens gets abducted abroad.
Call it a PR Exercise if you like, but they have to be seen to be at least trying.
No, I don't think about Madeleine 24/7. But I do mind very much about the lies and the abuse inflicted on The McCanns by anyone, not least people from their own country.
This is a moral miscarriage of justice.
with you all the way
alas this has gone global and political
when the 'fund' was established - that money should have gone straight to a renowned detective agency - such as 'Pinkertons' - not associated with countries and/or governments
Kate and Gerry placed the funds into a 2 bit outfit called Metodo 3 instead - a provincial group of wannabe Columbos - who achieved nothing - not a single lead
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I don't think anyone should just 'accept' it, if Scotland Yard suspect an abduction
Madeleine is a British child, and if British police declare that they believe she was snatched from her bed by an abductor, then they bloody well better keep on investigating until they find out who abducted her, and catch him
It would be a disgrace if they just said that they think she was abducted and that's that, review over, the end
I don't know if UK hands would be tied legally or not. A bit of a difficult situation.
I'm not even sure what the current legal framework is concerning the review... Is a prosecutor following it? It seems to be a bit of a grey area at the moment.
I think the Uk can bring a charge on someone here if a crime was committed abroad, but only for rape murder or manslaughter
I beliee it is only for homicide; rape is not covered IIRC.