UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: icabodcrane on April 21, 2013, 10:48:44 PM
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I'm assuming, since the McCann's apartment was on the end, that all the others had to pass the McCann children's bedroom window on their way to and from their own apartments ... is that correct ?
The McCanns claim that Jane Tanner saw the abductor make off with Madeleine at 9.15pm ... so at that time the shutters on their children's bedroom was already fully raised, and the window wide open
Subsequently, one or other of the McCann's friends passed that open window 7 times ... 7 times !
How can it be that none of them noticed it ?
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no - there was a car park in between the path they took and the bedroom window. Also bushes and low lighting.
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In fact it is correct to say that NOBODY walked past the bedroom window, as in directly outside it.
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but you knew that the path directly in front of the window only goes to apt 5A and was not a thoroughfare didn't you?
Otherwise you wouldn't have come up with the strange number 7.
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The bedroom window can be seen clearly as you walk across the car park and as we are lead to believe there was a table lamp on in the lounge area and the bedroom door and shutters were open then the light from that would have illuminated the window enough to draw your eye to it.
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The bedroom window can be seen clearly as you walk across the car park and as we are lead to believe there was a table lamp on in the lounge area and the bedroom door and shutters were open then the light from that would have illuminated the window enough to draw your eye to it.
what a fascinating observation - who led you to believe there was a lit lamp?
Oh no - I shouldn't have asked that!
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I should have just said "cite"
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but you knew that the path directly in front of the window only goes to apt 5A and was not a thoroughfare didn't you?
Otherwise you wouldn't have come up with the strange number 7.
No I didn't ... I thought the others walked past the McCanns window on the way to or from their own apartments, and that was when they did their 'listening checks' for the McCanns
I didn't realise that they went out of their way to check on the McCann children ( especially given that the McCanns, themselves, didn't check on anyone's children but their own )
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incidentally icabodcrane, I didn't go through the 181 posts on your other window thread to see if this has been covered.
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but you knew that the path directly in front of the window only goes to apt 5A and was not a thoroughfare didn't you?
Otherwise you wouldn't have come up with the strange number 7.
No I didn't ... I thought the others walked past the McCanns window on the way to or from their own apartments, and that was when they did their 'listening checks' for the McCanns
I didn't realise that they went out of their way to check on the McCann children ( especially given that the McCanns, themselves, didn't check on anyone's children but their own )
well you thought wrong didn't you
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incidentally icabodcrane, I didn't go through the 181 posts on your other window thread to see if this has been covered.
oh you should ... it's an excellent thread
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maybe some other time, but if it is so good - why the need for another thread?
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I'm assuming, since the McCann's apartment was on the end, that all the others had to pass the McCann children's bedroom window on their way to and from their own apartments ... is that correct ?
The McCanns claim that Jane Tanner saw the abductor make off with Madeleine at 9.15pm ... so at that time the shutters on their children's bedroom was already fully raised, and the window wide open
Subsequently, one or other of the McCann's friends passed that open window 7 times ... 7 times !
How can it be that none of them noticed it ?
If this is a serious question, there are quite a few photos on the subject. Many are hosted on Pamalam's site. Beware of photos taken post-disappearance as the lighting was improved afterwards.
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Unfortunately it shows a very basic misunderstanding of the layout
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I'm assuming, since the McCann's apartment was on the end, that all the others had to pass the McCann children's bedroom window on their way to and from their own apartments ... is that correct ?
The McCanns claim that Jane Tanner saw the abductor make off with Madeleine at 9.15pm ... so at that time the shutters on their children's bedroom was already fully raised, and the window wide open
Subsequently, one or other of the McCann's friends passed that open window 7 times ... 7 times !
How can it be that none of them noticed it ?
If you look at the 2nd 3rd and 4th photos on this page it shows how one would probably not notice unless they actually looked. The others did not have a front door like flat 5a on that path they would have gone straight into the communal entrance right opposite the central opening to the car park.
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic179-10.html
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Unfortunately it shows a very basic misunderstanding of the layout
Not everyone will be familiar with the layout.
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I'm assuming, since the McCann's apartment was on the end, that all the others had to pass the McCann children's bedroom window on their way to and from their own apartments ... is that correct ?
The McCanns claim that Jane Tanner saw the abductor make off with Madeleine at 9.15pm ... so at that time the shutters on their children's bedroom was already fully raised, and the window wide open
Subsequently, one or other of the McCann's friends passed that open window 7 times ... 7 times !
How can it be that none of them noticed it ?
If you look at the 2nd 3rd and 4th photos on this page it shows how one would probably not notice unless they actually looked
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic179-10.html
for once I agree with you, and those photos are in daytime - not in the dark of night.
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Unfortunately it shows a very basic misunderstanding of the layout
Not everyone will be familiar with the layout.
they should be by now
(especially when they can come up with 7 passings)
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I'm assuming, since the McCann's apartment was on the end, that all the others had to pass the McCann children's bedroom window on their way to and from their own apartments ... is that correct ?
The McCanns claim that Jane Tanner saw the abductor make off with Madeleine at 9.15pm ... so at that time the shutters on their children's bedroom was already fully raised, and the window wide open
Subsequently, one or other of the McCann's friends passed that open window 7 times ... 7 times !
How can it be that none of them noticed it ?
If this is a serious question, there are quite a few photos on the subject. Many are hosted on Pamalam's site. Beware of photos taken post-disappearance as the lighting was improved afterwards.
It was a serious question
I genuinly thought the abductor had come straight out of the McCanns apartment and immediately crossed that road where Jane Tanner saw him
I had no idea he had to walk back down the path past the other apartments, and around a car park before crossing that road
I'll take your advice and go look at the detailed maps, thanks
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I'm assuming, since the McCann's apartment was on the end, that all the others had to pass the McCann children's bedroom window on their way to and from their own apartments ... is that correct ?
The McCanns claim that Jane Tanner saw the abductor make off with Madeleine at 9.15pm ... so at that time the shutters on their children's bedroom was already fully raised, and the window wide open
Subsequently, one or other of the McCann's friends passed that open window 7 times ... 7 times !
How can it be that none of them noticed it ?
If this is a serious question, there are quite a few photos on the subject. Many are hosted on Pamalam's site. Beware of photos taken post-disappearance as the lighting was improved afterwards.
It was a serious question
I genuinly thought the abductor had come straight out of the McCanns apartment and immediately crossed that road where Jane Tanner saw him
I had no idea he had to walk back down the path past the other apartments, and around a car park before crossing that road
I'll take your advice and go look at the detailed maps, thanks
your opening post/question had nothing to do with an abductor.
"I'm assuming, since the McCann's apartment was on the end, that all the others had to pass the McCann children's bedroom window on their way to and from their own apartments ... is that correct ?
The McCanns claim that Jane Tanner saw the abductor make off with Madeleine at 9.15pm ... so at that time the shutters on their children's bedroom was already fully raised, and the window wide open
Subsequently, one or other of the McCann's friends passed that open window 7 times ... 7 times !
How can it be that none of them noticed it ? "
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It's very strange that you were an expert on this - " open window 7 times ... 7 times !", but not on the actual layout?
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Unfortunately it shows a very basic misunderstanding of the layout
Not everyone will be familiar with the layout.
they should be by now
(especially when they can come up with 7 passings)
There were 7 passings after 9.15pm
Jane Tanner passed on her way to check on her children, and then passed again on her way back ( 9.15pm )
Oldfied passed twice , on his way to, and then back after checking on his kids ( 9.30pm )
O'Brien passed on his way to check his children ( he stayed because his child was ill )
Jane Tanner passed again when she went to relieve O'Brien
O'brien passed on his return to thye restaurant
So seven times people passed that open window ... although I accept that unless they were looking at the apartments, across the car park, as they passed they would not have noticed it
Now I realise it, I am astonished that the abductor didn't have a get away car waiting in the very car park he walked around
( just to mention, I have not followed this case devotedly, so there is much that I do not know about it )
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you counted and noted the passings, but failed to look at the layout.
Then you raised doubt about the credibility of the Mccann group.
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How did they fail to notice Madeleine's open window ?
the question has been answered, do you agree?
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How did they fail to notice Madeleine's open window ?
the question has been answered, do you agree?
Yes I do, thank you
I am no 'expert' on this case, and I don't post here in order to 'defend' or 'attack' ... I post and ask questions so that I can better understand
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The bedroom window can be seen clearly as you walk across the car park and as we are lead to believe there was a table lamp on in the lounge area and the bedroom door and shutters were open then the light from that would have illuminated the window enough to draw your eye to it.
what a fascinating observation - who led you to believe there was a lit lamp?
Oh no - I shouldn't have asked that!
It's in one of Kate or Gerry's statements.
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If you don't mind me suggesting then - don't bias your questions in a negative manner.
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for example
"Should someone have noticed the open window?" in my opinion would have been neutral.
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oh shit -
the answer is no.
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you counted and noted the passings, but failed to look at the layout.
Then you raised doubt about the credibility of the Mccann group.
I have been there and with a table lamp illuminating the window your eye would certainly have been drawn to it in the darkness.
BTW don't you think it's a tad convenient that the only time one of the McCann's friends actually went into the apartment was the very time that if he had listened at the window as usual he would have found the window open ? Why the change of behaviour on that night in particular ?
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you counted and noted the passings, but failed to look at the layout.
Then you raised doubt about the credibility of the Mccann group.
I have been there and with a table lamp illuminating the window your eye would certainly have been drawn to it in the darkness.
BTW don't you think it's a tad convenient that the only time one of the McCann's friends actually went into the apartment was the very time that if he had listened at the window as usual he would have found the window open ? Why the change of behaviour on that night in particular ?
oh you mean a bit like when Brown was there and said that the smoker in the apartment opposite watched everything that went on so there couldn't have been an abduction?
You can play with these theories and doubts for as long as you like - it makes no difference - you have not cracked the case.
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The bedroom window can be seen clearly as you walk across the car park and as we are lead to believe there was a table lamp on in the lounge area and the bedroom door and shutters were open then the light from that would have illuminated the window enough to draw your eye to it.
what a fascinating observation - who led you to believe there was a lit lamp?
Oh no - I shouldn't have asked that!
It's in one of Kate or Gerry's statements.
Matthew Oldfield mentioned it in his
So I went back and did the check on five 'A', on Madeleine and the kids, erm, and went back through the patio entrance, so through the gate, through the patio doors, erm, there was, it was light enough to see through the apartment and there sort of a little table light on the right at the end of the sofa and when you walk into the room, you could see straight into it, because the door was open.
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I posted something about here http://stopthemyths.prophpbb.com/topic5019.html#p162159 (http://stopthemyths.prophpbb.com/topic5019.html#p162159)
Feel free to get my pics from that thread ...
Heri.
PS: and of course if Jane saw the abductor at 21:45/21:50 then we only have Jane passing one time, and Russell passing one time ...
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oh there was a sofa in the children's bedroom now?
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oh there was a sofa in the children's bedroom now?
I was referring to a lamp being on, which was mentioned by a previous poster, nothing more nothing less,cheers
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1000 watt halogen bulb would just about do it
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The bedroom window can be seen clearly as you walk across the car park and as we are lead to believe there was a table lamp on in the lounge area and the bedroom door and shutters were open then the light from that would have illuminated the window enough to draw your eye to it.
what a fascinating observation - who led you to believe there was a lit lamp?
Oh no - I shouldn't have asked that!
It's in one of Kate or Gerry's statements.
Matthew Oldfield mentioned it in his
So I went back and did the check on five 'A', on Madeleine and the kids, erm, and went back through the patio entrance, so through the gate, through the patio doors, erm, there was, it was light enough to see through the apartment and there sort of a little table light on the right at the end of the sofa and when you walk into the room, you could see straight into it, because the door was open.
Thank you RB, that's the one.
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I posted something about here http://stopthemyths.prophpbb.com/topic5019.html#p162159 (http://stopthemyths.prophpbb.com/topic5019.html#p162159)
Feel free to get my pics from that thread ...
Heri.
PS: and of course if Jane saw the abductor at 21:45/21:50 then we only have Jane passing one time, and Russell passing one time ...
Those pictures give excellent perspective Heriberto, thankyou
It's not really a 'car park' at all is ( not as I envisioned it anyway ) ... rather, it is limited parking space about the width of a road
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1000 watt halogen bulb would just about do it
The area which houses the front door and window is very dark at night so any kind of illumination, like a lamp shining through the bedroom from the lounge, would be easily seen by any passerby.
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changing your mind now?
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You are welcome Faith. The blinds in the kitchen were up IIRC too bringing more light in from outside.I think that bit was in one of the Mccanns statements. In any case, I think its probably true to say that people rushing to check their kids were eager to get there and back fast so wouldnt have noticed much else unless they looked.
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well I have changed my mind - the light from the table lamp in the lounge was powerful enough to illuminate a bedroom with a partially opened door, then through an open shutter, across a low wall, passed any car that was parked there (unknown) and onto a path a few metres away and shouted - look at me.
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I posted something about here http://stopthemyths.prophpbb.com/topic5019.html#p162159 (http://stopthemyths.prophpbb.com/topic5019.html#p162159)
Feel free to get my pics from that thread ...
Heri.
PS: and of course if Jane saw the abductor at 21:45/21:50 then we only have Jane passing one time, and Russell passing one time ...
[attachment deleted by admin]
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The blinds in the kitchen were up IIRC too bringing more light in from outside
hold on - if it was light outside it defeats your argument.
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The pics ... Here the map ... http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1330.msg37783#msg37783 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1330.msg37783#msg37783)
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And the last pics ... Here the map ... http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1330.msg37783#msg37783 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1330.msg37783#msg37783)
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lovely heri - can you post pictures in the dark at the time we are talking about
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In that car park was a CCTV camera.. Even Amaral admitted, in a interview in The Times that it would HAVE CAUGHT THE ABDUCTOR ..... However it was the onlt security camera which happened to have it's taped ""wiped""
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In that car park was a CCTV camera.. Even Amaral admitted, in a interview in The Times that it would HAVE CAUGHT THE ABDUCTOR ..... However it was the onlt security camera which happened to have it's taped ""wiped""
complete bollocks
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In that car park was a CCTV camera.. Even Amaral admitted, in a interview in The Times that it would HAVE CAUGHT THE ABDUCTOR ..... However it was the onlt security camera which happened to have it's taped ""wiped""
It wasn't that car park it was one close to Estrela da Luz apartment complex.
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I took these pics in may last trip (March 2013) ... Obviously the conditions were not the same at night ... Now there is better illumination, and no bushes ... I do not know if car(s) in the park when abduction ... I took pics at night without flash ...
Heri.
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In that car park was a CCTV camera.. Even Amaral admitted, in a interview in The Times that it would HAVE CAUGHT THE ABDUCTOR ..... However it was the onlt security camera which happened to have it's taped ""wiped""
complete bollocks
Care to retract that before i post the link up??
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In that car park was a CCTV camera.. Even Amaral admitted, in a interview in The Times that it would HAVE CAUGHT THE ABDUCTOR ..... However it was the onlt security camera which happened to have it's taped ""wiped""
complete bollocks
Care to retract that before i post the link up??
post the link
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http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/210032/Madeleine-McCann-Did-the-camera-hold-vital-clue
He walked a few steps and looked up at a CCTV camera and sighed loudly. The camera belongs to the Estrela da Luz resort hotel. “I believe that the person carrying a child in his arms was captured on film from that very camera,” he said.
“I asked my officers to gather all the CCTV footage in Luz but, by the time they got to this hotel, the film from this camera had been wiped over. It was a mistake and I will always regret it. I do feel Madeleine was let down.”
Walking alongside the waste ground, he enters a narrow street called Rua da Escola Primaria. “This is where there was a significant sighting of a man carrying a child in his arms,” he said. “He was seen by a witness, Martin Smith from Ireland.”
The man with the child continued down the hill and would have come to a crossroads. Opposite the junction is an empty villa with a large garden. The wooden door leading to the garden is open.
“It was open at the time and the villa is still empty,” Mr Amaral said. “My officers spent a lot of time here.”
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1000 watt halogen bulb would just about do it
The area which houses the front door and window is very dark at night so any kind of illumination, like a lamp shining through the bedroom from the lounge, would be easily seen by any passerby.
May be not "easily" but you're right that the lamp might have attracted the attention.
The corridor was always illuminated.
The parking space isn't like it was any more, they've cut the beautiful pepper trees (actually false pepper trees), but it's rather long because it's adjacent to a slightly higher park space, in front of the G4.
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the cctv camera was nowhere near 5a
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Estrela da Luz resort hotel
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complete bollocks
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complete bollocks
So Amaral is talking complete bollocks now is he, why is that then?
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May be not "easily" but you're right that the lamp might have attracted the attention of one.
The corridor was always illuminated.
no light from the living room would have attracted the attention of anyone across the "parking area" vis the route i described - especially if there was outside light (corridor) in between.
Impossible
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Estrela da Luz resort hotel
Near where the smiths lived and possibly relevant to the smith sighting but nowhere near 5a
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complete bollocks
So Amaral is talking complete bollocks now is he, why is that then?
apart from the fact that is his habit - it is a different place.
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complete bollocks
So Amaral is talking complete bollocks now is he, why is that then?
apart from the fact that is his habit - it is a different place.
So Amaral thinks the abductor went that way, so what made him think that...remember those are his words...like this took from same article
Yesterday controversial figure Goncalo Amaral backed Kate and Gerry McCann’s demand for a review and reopening of the investigation.
That was in 2010...so why do the [ censored word ]s insist on saying the McCanns have never asked for it to be re-opened. Straight from their heroes mouth
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it is a different place.
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Estrela da Luz resort hotel
Estrela da Luz is an apartment complex, there is no hotel.
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clue - OC
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complete bollocks
So Amaral is talking complete bollocks now is he, why is that then?
apart from the fact that is his habit - it is a different place.
So Amaral thinks the abductor went that way, so what made him think that...remember those are his words...like this took from same article
Yesterday controversial figure Goncalo Amaral backed Kate and Gerry McCann’s demand for a review and reopening of the investigation.
That was in 2010...so why do the [ censored word ]s insist on saying the McCanns have never asked for it to be re-opened. Straight from their heroes mouth
Have you trouble with comprehension ? It says Amaral wants the case re-opened and so, allegedly do the McCanns. It does not say he verified they had asked for it to be reopened.
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They invented the unlocked patio doors scenario.
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They invented the unlocked patio doors scenario.
You are telepathic then?
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I posted something about here http://stopthemyths.prophpbb.com/topic5019.html#p162159 (http://stopthemyths.prophpbb.com/topic5019.html#p162159)
Feel free to get my pics from that thread ...
Heri.
PS: and of course if Jane saw the abductor at 21:45/21:50 then we only have Jane passing one time, and Russell passing one time ...
Your blog is very interesting and informative.
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I posted something about here http://stopthemyths.prophpbb.com/topic5019.html#p162159 (http://stopthemyths.prophpbb.com/topic5019.html#p162159)
Feel free to get my pics from that thread ...
Heri.
PS: and of course if Jane saw the abductor at 21:45/21:50 then we only have Jane passing one time, and Russell passing one time ...
Your blog is very interesting and informative.
Thanks Joanne!!! But the Great Stop the Myths web is not mine. My blog is the modest http://espacioexterior.blogspot.com (http://espacioexterior.blogspot.com)
?{)(**
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It would have had to have been open in the first place...it wasn't.