UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: AnneGuedes on May 02, 2013, 01:25:01 AM
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The best time for the intruder to get in was obviously right after the departure of the McCanns, 20:30. Once inside through the patio door, trying to smother Madeleine about to scream, he suffocated her accidentally. He remained there, likely horrified and not knowing what to do. The state of the bed indicates there was no fight.
What about Mr McCann ? He didn't say the truth. He checked like Matt did later, he just listened, he said he never looked inside normally. Didn't he admit the predator was with him in the flat ?
What about Jane T ? She saw the carrier not at 9:20, but at 9:45 when she went to relieve Russell. She thought he was Geraldalike and feared the police would go on a false track if by chance someone else had seen him. So she changed the time and gave Mr McCann an alibi.
The man who killed Madeleine left the flat with the little body on his arms and was seen by the Smith family 10 minutes later.
Eddie was right.
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No intruder is going to take a risk of discovery over a corpse Anne and he certainly isn't going to walk around a busy tourist town at night with her in his arms. I am surprised you even suggested such a scenario.
As for evidence against the McCanns I fear nobody has come up with any so this can now be consigned to the myth bin.
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No intruder is going to take a risk of discovery over a corpse Anne and he certainly isn't going to walk around a busy tourist town at night with her in his arms. I am surprised you even suggested such a scenario.
As for evidence against the McCanns I fear nobody has come up with any so this can now be consigned to the myth bin.
I don't agree, John, intruders now are informed about DNA and certainly wouldn't take the risk to be discovered through residues found on a corpse.
And PDL wasn't busy at all (see 10:00 witness).
And finally this predator, at least, didn't walk around, unlike the Jane T/Smith carrier.
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It is a recognised fact that complete strangers don't just walk into holiday apartment blocks, murder a child and make off with the body. There is simply no logic to it.
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It is a recognised fact that complete strangers don't just walk into holiday apartment blocks, murder a child and make off with the body. There is simply no logic to it.
it is usually family that do that. 8(0(*
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It is a recognised fact that complete strangers don't just walk into holiday apartment blocks, murder a child and make off with the body. There is simply no logic to it.
it is usually family that do that. 8(0(*
If one deeply feels the McCanns weren't involved whatsoever, if one finds not plausible an abductor 1) walking around and 2) carrying a child as one carries badly hurt or dead kids, if one knows that according to probability laws late exceptional Eddie smelt death in the flat , then you'll admit a perfect stranger, not an abductor, took advantage of a door left open hoping to find some valuable things, was surprised by a little girl about to scream, killed her by accident and succeeded in trying to save his neck.
I'm not saying this is, imo, what happened.
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It is a recognised fact that complete strangers don't just walk into holiday apartment blocks, murder a child and make off with the body. There is simply no logic to it.
it is usually family that do that. 8(0(*
If one deeply feels the McCanns weren't involved whatsoever, if one finds not plausible an abductor 1) walking around and 2) carrying a child as one carries badly hurt or dead kids, if one knows that according to probability laws late exceptional Eddie smelt death in the flat , then you'll admit a perfect stranger, not an abductor, took advantage of a door left open hoping to find some valuable things, was surprised by a little girl about to scream, killed her by accident and succeeded in trying to save his neck.
I'm not saying this is, imo, what happened.
Well, I had thought that this could have been a possibility.
However, on checking available literature, I can't find anything to suggest that a cadaver dog would detect the lingering airborne scent 3 months after the fact of someone who would have been taken out within a minute or so after supposedly dying. Add to that the fact that 4 different sets of people had lived in it after the disappearance, and whoever else may have visited it.
So far, my conclusion is that if someone did indeed kill her in that flat and immediately removed her, that still wouldn't account for Eddie's alert.
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However, on checking available literature, I can't find anything to suggest that a cadaver dog would detect the lingering airborne scent 3 months after the fact of someone who would have been taken out within a minute or so after supposedly dying. Add to that the fact that 4 different sets of people had lived in it after the disappearance, and whoever else may have visited it.
So far, my conclusion is that if someone did indeed kill her in that flat and immediately removed her, that still wouldn't account for Eddie's alert.
Hi Carana ! Yes, this scenario is impossible if Madeleine was removed a few minutes after dying. But can you imagine an intruder killing in a panic ? Would he run away immediately or would he remain for a while in a state of shock ?
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However, on checking available literature, I can't find anything to suggest that a cadaver dog would detect the lingering airborne scent 3 months after the fact of someone who would have been taken out within a minute or so after supposedly dying. Add to that the fact that 4 different sets of people had lived in it after the disappearance, and whoever else may have visited it.
So far, my conclusion is that if someone did indeed kill her in that flat and immediately removed her, that still wouldn't account for Eddie's alert.
Hi Carana ! Yes, this scenario is impossible if Madeleine was removed a few minutes after dying. But can you imagine an intruder killing in a panic ? Would he run away immediately or would he remain for a while in a state of shock ?
No idea, Anne. I'm not a burglar, neither have I ever harmed anyone.
Even a few minutes of shock wouldn't explain Eddie's alert so long after.
He/she could have knocked her out, taken her out and subsequently discovered that he was in a mess.
If she wasn't dead and he didn't know what to do, have all convents, sects, "alternative communities", etc., been thoroughly checked?
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No idea, Anne. I'm not a burglar, neither have I ever harmed anyone.
Even a few minutes of shock wouldn't explain Eddie's alert so long after.
He/she could have knocked her out, taken her out and subsequently discovered that he was in a mess.
If she wasn't dead and he didn't know what to do, have all convents, sects, "alternative communities", etc., been thoroughly checked?
I'm not a burglar too and luckily didn't kill accidentally someone. But I'm a human being..
It's not impossible to think an intruder remained quite a time in the flat. We know that Mr Oldfield lied (must have listened to the window) and if Mr McCann went into the flat, he limited his visit to the bathroom as usual.
Death comes in a couple of minutes when air pipes are obstructed, especially the jugular arteries.
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Please note posters:
This thread split from the main thread.
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It is a recognised fact that complete strangers don't just walk into holiday apartment blocks, murder a child and make off with the body. There is simply no logic to it.
it is usually family that do that. 8(0(*
If one deeply feels the McCanns weren't involved whatsoever, if one finds not plausible an abductor 1) walking around and 2) carrying a child as one carries badly hurt or dead kids, if one knows that according to probability laws late exceptional Eddie smelt death in the flat , then you'll admit a perfect stranger, not an abductor, took advantage of a door left open hoping to find some valuable things, was surprised by a little girl about to scream, killed her by accident and succeeded in trying to save his neck.
I'm not saying this is, imo, what happened.
This wasnt an opportunist crime anne. These people (I believe there were at least two) had been watching and had planned the kidnap abduction. We dont know why or if it was a kidnap or if they were abducting for their own gratification or for financial gain. Usually when someone acts alone it is for self gratification but when there are multiple offenders involved it is a gang out to make some dosh.
A dead child is of no use to anyone and carrying one around the vtown would have been idiotic and a non starter.
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No idea, Anne. I'm not a burglar, neither have I ever harmed anyone.
Even a few minutes of shock wouldn't explain Eddie's alert so long after.
He/she could have knocked her out, taken her out and subsequently discovered that he was in a mess.
If she wasn't dead and he didn't know what to do, have all convents, sects, "alternative communities", etc., been thoroughly checked?
I'm not a burglar too and luckily didn't kill accidentally someone. But I'm a human being..
It's not impossible to think an intruder remained quite a time in the flat. We know that Mr Oldfield lied (must have listened to the window) and if Mr McCann went into the flat, he limited his visit to the bathroom as usual.
Death comes in a couple of minutes when air pipes are obstructed, especially the jugular arteries.
Why do you say Matt Oldfield lied? I've seen no evidence of that.
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Matthew had a guilty conscience about what happened. Nobody knows for sure if he went right up to the shutters or just listened momentarily as he passed. Maybe he missed the shutters being open in the gloom??
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No idea, Anne. I'm not a burglar, neither have I ever harmed anyone.
Even a few minutes of shock wouldn't explain Eddie's alert so long after.
He/she could have knocked her out, taken her out and subsequently discovered that he was in a mess.
If she wasn't dead and he didn't know what to do, have all convents, sects, "alternative communities", etc., been thoroughly checked?
I'm not a burglar too and luckily didn't kill accidentally someone. But I'm a human being..
It's not impossible to think an intruder remained quite a time in the flat. We know that Mr Oldfield lied (must have listened to the window) and if Mr McCann went into the flat, he limited his visit to the bathroom as usual.
Death comes in a couple of minutes when air pipes are obstructed, especially the jugular arteries.
Why do you say Matt Oldfield lied? I've seen no evidence of that.
MO described the McCann childrens' bedroom as his was (2 windows), he said the curtains were green instead of lilac, could only see 1 twin, and not 2, according to the SP photos, should have wondered where was Madeleine since the bed under the window was undone, etc. Besides it was pointless to get inside and only listen. His check isn't on one of the timelines.
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Matthew had a guilty conscience about what happened. Nobody knows for sure if he went right up to the shutters or just listened momentarily as he passed. Maybe he missed the shutters being open in the gloom??
I think he may have had a guilty conscience because he didn't actually make sure Madeleine was in her bed at his 9.30 check - but then why would he think to do that? He'd established that all was quiet and so assumed the children were all asleep, so all was well and he left.
His previous check - the one carried out just before 9.00p.m. was not pre- planned or requested by anyone. He had gone to hurry up the Paynes, but when he met them he was half way to the apartments and so decided to carry on and check his own children. On the way back, also because he was in the vicinity - he decided to check outside the window of 5A - which he did and so could confirm that the shutters were down.
His normal route back did not take him past 5A. At no time did he pass the window.
When returning - he would normally leave the path at the access point which was in the centre of the apartment block in order to cross the carpark - instead of doing that he had to carry on along that path to get to 5A. So why would he take the trouble to make that diversion and then not listen properly when he got there?
After checking he then had to turn round and retrace his footsteps along that path back to the centre of the block where he had access to the carpark which he would then cross to leave by the carpark entrance.
Lovely Heri has a great arial piccie showing the route to and from the Tapas/ apartments which everyone but the McCanns would take via the carpark entrance - and which clearly shows that it did not involve passing by the front of apartment 5A. Hopefully if he reads this he might post it. It explains everything far better than I can.
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I didn't start this thread. I had only tried and imagined a possibility that would conciliate the McCanns' innocence and Eddie's findings. Some (including me) said they were surprised the McCanns, after their first and understandable denying the dogs' alerts, went on discrediting them whereas they'd be expected to contemplate the eventuality Madeleine died. Instead they went on claiming there's was no evidence "whatsoever" she had been harmed ! Not recognizing even that she couldn't but have gone through a terrible traumatic shock...
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MO's bedroom windows (one big and one small) were very close to the MC childrens' bedroom unique window as these two bedrooms have a common wall.
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No idea, Anne. I'm not a burglar, neither have I ever harmed anyone.
Even a few minutes of shock wouldn't explain Eddie's alert so long after.
He/she could have knocked her out, taken her out and subsequently discovered that he was in a mess.
If she wasn't dead and he didn't know what to do, have all convents, sects, "alternative communities", etc., been thoroughly checked?
I'm not a burglar too and luckily didn't kill accidentally someone. But I'm a human being..
It's not impossible to think an intruder remained quite a time in the flat. We know that Mr Oldfield lied (must have listened to the window) and if Mr McCann went into the flat, he limited his visit to the bathroom as usual.
Death comes in a couple of minutes when air pipes are obstructed, especially the jugular arteries.
Why do you say Matt Oldfield lied? I've seen no evidence of that.
MO described the McCann childrens' bedroom as his was (2 windows), he said the curtains were green instead of lilac, could only see 1 twin, and not 2, according to the SP photos, should have wondered where was Madeleine since the bed under the window was undone, etc. Besides it was pointless to get inside and only listen. His check isn't on one of the timelines.
Sorry but why are they lies and not simply mistakes? Memories are not tape recorders - and it's not unusual for someone to get things wrong/muddled when they are trying to recall something which was not important at the time and so they had no need to make any special effort to remember it.
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Many mistakes lead to suspicion. In MO's case he likely just wanted to help on the topic of regular and responsible checking, unless he couldn't have seen the shutters were closed. He seems rather bad at lying...
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No idea, Anne. I'm not a burglar, neither have I ever harmed anyone.
Even a few minutes of shock wouldn't explain Eddie's alert so long after.
He/she could have knocked her out, taken her out and subsequently discovered that he was in a mess.
If she wasn't dead and he didn't know what to do, have all convents, sects, "alternative communities", etc., been thoroughly checked?
I'm not a burglar too and luckily didn't kill accidentally someone. But I'm a human being..
It's not impossible to think an intruder remained quite a time in the flat. We know that Mr Oldfield lied (must have listened to the window) and if Mr McCann went into the flat, he limited his visit to the bathroom as usual.
Death comes in a couple of minutes when air pipes are obstructed, especially the jugular arteries.
Why do you say that?
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Many mistakes lead to suspicion. In MO's case he likely just wanted to help on the topic of regular and responsible checking, unless he couldn't have seen the shutters were closed. He seems rather bad at lying...
.......If you believe he was lying.
I can't think of any reason why he should - so although I would agree that not everything he said may be accurate - I believe nothing he said was with the intention of deliberately deceiving anyone. That's also my opinions of all of them.
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On this I agree with you. I don't think any of the TP7 deliberately obstructed the investigation. Let's say MO wasn't saying the truth. For the good cause.
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On this I agree with you. I don't think any of the TP7 deliberately obstructed the investigation. Let's say MO wasn't saying the truth. For the good cause.
I don't think you are agreeing with me Anne. You are suggesting he didn't tell the truth in order to be 'helpful', which is the same as saying he deliberately lied imo. I'm saying he sincerely and truthfully related events from his memory - but no-one's memory can be guaranteed to reproduce perfect recall.
I can say that I remember it rained here yesterday at 3.00p.m. If it's later established that it was 2.30p.m. that doesn't mean I lied - it means I was mistaken because my memory of the precise time was wrong.
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On this I agree with you. I don't think any of the TP7 deliberately obstructed the investigation. Let's say MO wasn't saying the truth. For the good cause.
I don't think you are agreeing with me Anne. You are suggesting he didn't tell the truth in order to be 'helpful', which is the same as saying he deliberately lied imo. I'm saying he sincerely and truthfully related events from his memory - but no-one's memory can be guaranteed to reproduce perfect recall.
I can say that I remember it rained here yesterday at 3.00p.m. If it's later established that it was 2.30p.m. that doesn't mean I lied - it means I was mistaken because my memory of the precise time was wrong.
Oh sorry, Benice, I didn't express myself correctly. Suggesting that MO didn't say the truth in order to be helpful meant that regardless of the investigation that couldn't be influenced by his statement (he believed an abduction had occurred) since he wouldn't pretend Madeleine was there or not, he thought that all would benefit of stating the kids were checked every 30 minutes. We know that MO didn't check his daughter at 10 nor asked Mrs McCann to do it for him...
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MO's bedroom windows (one big and one small) were very close to the MC childrens' bedroom unique window as these two bedrooms have a common wall.
You are quite right Anne, for some reason I had MO staying in another apartment further along, which is incorrect. Apols for that error.
However, it doesn't change the fact that MO's usual route from his apartment back to the tapas did not involve him walking in front of the McCann apartment. He would have to turn right instead of left when leaving his own apartment to make a check at Madeleine's window and then turn round and walk back in front of his own apartment and carry on along that path to reach the access to the carpark.
My main concern here is that some people seem to think that everyone who went to and from their apartments walked past 5A - and hence also walked past Madeleine's bedroom window. The only people who ever did that were the McCanns on the occasions when they entered or left 5a via the carpark entrance.
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Yes, Benice. Only when crossing the private car park towards the hall could or couldn't one notice whether a window had shutters abnormally open. We're not all sharp-eyed (I'm not !).