UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Admin on May 17, 2013, 01:05:07 AM
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It is well documented that David and Fiona Payne plus grandmother Dianne Webster used a baby monitor when dining at the restaurant or the tapas bar thus circumventing the need to physically return to the apartment as often as the others did to check on the children. This would appear to have been a well tried and tested technique which probably worked for them in the past.
What do the members think of this?
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It is well documented that David and Fiona Payne plus grandmother Dianne Webster used a baby monitor when dining at the restaurant or the tapas bar thus circumventing the need to physically return to the apartment as often as the others did to check on the children. This would appear to have been a well tried and tested technique which probably worked for them in the past.
What do the members think of this?
I wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw them on the grounds that anything mechanical can malfunction. When my son was on holiday last September he was amazed at the number of tables in the restaurant/bar/round the pool - which had these devices on them. IMO they are fine at home - but nowhere else.
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It was marginally more responsible than leaving babies/infants completely out of sight and earshot for half hour intervals
Come to think of it, why didn't they all use one ?
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It was marginally more responsible than leaving babies/infants completely out of sight and earshot for half hour intervals
Come to think of it, why didn't they all use one ?
maybe they ran out of batteries?
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I would say that it WAS generally accepted practice AT THAT TIME, but so was the baby listening services offered by a multitude of "family friendly" resorts all over the Europe at the time (used by thousands upon thousands of unsuspecting parents over the years btw, though I doubt they would dare to admit having ever used it now).
Was it safe? No, it was not safe, not then and not now. Simply because leaving your children unsupervised at any time isn't safe. Accidents can happen in the blink of an eye, in fact, they can happen while you sleep, while you are on the phone, or when you have a quick toilet break.
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Whose business is this. DO we judge everybobies morals like this, or only those people that we plan to despise for other reasons.
It's none of our fecking business!
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My own experience with baby monitors is that they can be untrustworthy. The mains ones are better but the battery ones can definitely be misleading if the sender unit runs out of battery power. I remember very well finding on occasion that our baby monitor had gone particularly quiet only to discover that the batteries had run out. I agree that their use was better than just checking the children every 20 minutes or half hour but there is no substitute for good old baby sitting in its simplest form.
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It is well documented that David and Fiona Payne plus grandmother Dianne Webster used a baby monitor when dining at the restaurant or the tapas bar thus circumventing the need to physically return to the apartment as often as the others did to check on the children. This would appear to have been a well tried and tested technique which probably worked for them in the past.
What do the members think of this?
If it worked it was probably ok, but I did wonder how in the raucous atmosphere, as attested by several people, one would hear anything on it
Their problem really
As for the checks, I have never understood why they bothered to make them in the first place if they didnt physically look in, Gerrys words that he never once looked in apart from that night and Kates words she was tempted just to go back on hearing nothing but in both instances it was that door that seemed more open than they had left it
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I'm sorry but it WAS the McCanns' child that was abducted, wasn't it? Surely it is relevant as it was their child that was taken what pattern THEIR evenings took as opposed to anyone else's, if not perhaps you could explain why not? As for your second argument, I find it rather droll that you think it's somehow more understandable that an abductor would strike when parents are on the premises asleep, than when they are dining 50 metres away. Haven't you spent the last 10 years lambasting the parents for leaving the kids alone when "anything" could have happened and telling us how much safer they would have been if their parents had remained under the same roof as them all night?
If the would-be abductor had not taken notice of the whole group Matthew could have given him a nasty surprise that night.
When people are asleep you know where they are, and they'e not going to burst in on you any minute.
My objections to the home alone scenario aren't about keeping children safe per se, they're about parents understanding the dangers of it and taking the best care they can of their offspring. The McCanns childcare wasn't the best they could do. They put their children at risk.
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If the would-be abductor had not taken notice of the whole group Matthew could have given him a nasty surprise that night.
When people are asleep you know where they are, and they'e not going to burst in on you any minute.
My objections to the home alone scenario aren't about keeping children safe per se, they're about parents understanding the dangers of it and taking the best care they can of their offspring. The McCanns childcare wasn't the best they could do. They put their children at risk.
The McCanns thought the children were safe
We all make mistakes
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The McCanns thought the children were safe
We all make mistakes
Mistake;
an error in action, calculation, opinion, or judgement caused by poor reasoning, carelessness, insufficient knowledge, etc.
Was it poor reasoning? Most definitely.
Was it carelessness? Careless; not giving sufficient attention or thought to avoiding harm or errors. Sounds like it.
Insufficient knowledge? Surely not.
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Mistake;
an error in action, calculation, opinion, or judgement caused by poor reasoning, carelessness, insufficient knowledge, etc.
Was it poor reasoning? Most definitely.
Was it carelessness? Careless; not giving sufficient attention or thought to avoiding harm or errors. Sounds like it.
Insufficient knowledge? Surely not.
A mistake
A miscalculation based on the fact they thought the resort was very safe
Some posters on here are reminding me what it's like to live with someone with dementia
They wake up and ask the same questions every day
You then have the same discussion you had the day before
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A mistake
A miscalculation based on the fact they thought the resort was very safe
Some posters on here are reminding me what it's like to live with someone with dementia
They wake up and ask the same questions every day
You then have the same discussion you had the day before
So if you live or holiday in a safe sleepy UK seaside village it's OK to trot off out for a meal leaving your kids in an unlocked property? As long as you pop back on a half hourly basis, naturally.
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So if you live or holiday in a safe sleepy UK seaside village it's OK to trot off out for a meal leaving your kids in an unlocked property? As long as you pop back on a half hourly basis, naturally.
i think you will find this has all been duscussed ad nauseam and my views are still the same
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So if you live or holiday in a safe sleepy UK seaside village it's OK to trot off out for a meal leaving your kids in an unlocked property? As long as you pop back on a half hourly basis, naturally.
Presumably by your logic the kids would be at danger from all sorts of threats except stranger abduction in this scenario!
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Can you cite one official listening service which is offered not in an hotel or a complex but in a village which anyone can access and where there are a mixture of privately owned and holiday rental properties?
You seem determined to miss the point.
No matter where parents decide to use or mirror the listening type of childcare, or to use baby alarms when on holiday, it ALWAYS involves making the decision to leave their sleeping children alone in their rooms. It goes without saying that in every case those parents genuinely thought it was safe to do that - in the same way as the McCanns did - otherwise they wouldn't have done it.
According to you leaving sleeping children alone is totally unacceptable behaviour full stop - and you are entitled to your opinion. However it is only an opinion and one which quite obviously all of those parents mentioned above would not share with you - especially before Madeleine disappeared.
It seems to me that the reluctance by some to mention or even acknowledge the existence of those thousands of other parents is because it somewhat 'spoils' the concept that only the McCanns have ever committed this apparent 'crime of the century' of leaving their sleeping children alone and that it is absolute proof that they are evil uncaring selfish parents. The fact that they are only one set of parents amongst thousands who have done the same - puts rather a large spanner in those particular works IMO.
Either those parents on holiday who made the decision to leave their children alone in their rooms did so because they believed it was safe, or there are thousands upon thousands of parents out there who - because they left their children asleep and alone in their rooms - have proved they are also evil, uncaring, selfish parents. You can't have it both ways.
AIMHO
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You seem determined to miss the point.
No matter where parents decide to use or mirror the listening type of childcare, or to use baby alarms when on holiday, it ALWAYS involves making the decision to leave their sleeping children alone in their rooms. It goes without saying that in every case those parents genuinely thought it was safe to do that - in the same way as the McCanns did - otherwise they wouldn't have done it.
According to you leaving sleeping children alone is totally unacceptable behaviour full stop - and you are entitled to your opinion. However it is only an opinion and one which quite obviously all of those parents mentioned above would not share with you - especially before Madeleine disappeared.
It seems to me that the reluctance by some to mention or even acknowledge the existence of those thousands of other parents is because it somewhat 'spoils' the concept that only the McCanns have ever committed this apparent 'crime of the century' of leaving their sleeping children alone and that it is absolute proof that they are evil uncaring selfish parents. The fact that they are only one set of parents amongst thousands who have done the same - puts rather a large spanner in those particular works IMO.
Either those parents on holiday who made the decision to leave their children alone in their rooms did so because they believed it was safe, or there are thousands upon thousands of parents out there who - because they left their children asleep and alone in their rooms - have proved they are also evil, uncaring, selfish parents. You can't have it both ways.
AIMHO
Parents using a service offered by a hotel or holiday complex can justify their decision by pointing out that it is part of the service, so those offering it are recommending it as acceptable.
Parents creating their own ad hoc listening service in a resort where it's NOT PROVIDED BECAUSE THE RESORT ISN'T SUITABLE cannot justify their decision in that way.
Two different things, no matter how much you attempt to pretend they're the same. Even Kate McCann's mother struggled to understand what they were thinking;
“I can read articles that say Kate and Gerry should never have left their children and I can accept that. You find yourself over and over again in your head thinking: ‘Why did they think it would be all right?’
“Why did they think – ALL of them – it was OK to do this?
http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/madeleine-mccanns-grandparents-ask-leave-3490016
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Presumably by your logic the kids would be at danger from all sorts of threats except stranger abduction in this scenario!
It's not the only bad thing that can happen; didn't you know? That's why the NSPCC advice is to NEVER leave small children home alone. Apparently there's hordes of people in the UK who know better though.
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It's not the only bad thing that can happen; didn't you know? That's why the NSPCC advice is to NEVER leave small children home alone. Apparently there's hordes of people in the UK who know better though.
English law knows better.
Leaving kids is not, per se, an offence.
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So, what was it about the OC resort that meant the dangers to children left alone were far greater than in those resorts in which a listening service is offered? Presumably the dangers WITHIN the apartment were not far greater than those in other places with a listening service, so what was it in particular that made the OC unsuitable?
Mark Warner deemed it unsuitable, ask them.
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It's not the only bad thing that can happen; didn't you know? That's why the NSPCC advice is to NEVER leave small children home alone. Apparently there's hordes of people in the UK who know better though.
Of course it's not the only bad thing that can happen, stranger abduction is highly UNlikely to happen, but it CAN happen, at least you are now conceding that, previously you seemed to think it neither plausible nor logical that a child could be taken from its bed while its parents were dining a short distance away.
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Mark Warner deemed it unsuitable, ask them.
Unsuitable in what respect, compared to their other sites which DO offer a listening service?
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Parents using a service offered by a hotel or holiday complex can justify their decision by pointing out that it is part of the service, so those offering it are recommending it as acceptable.
Parents creating their own ad hoc listening service in a resort where it's NOT PROVIDED BECAUSE THE RESORT ISN'T SUITABLE cannot justify their decision in that way.
Two different things, no matter how much you attempt to pretend they're the same. Even Kate McCann's mother struggled to understand what they were thinking;
“I can read articles that say Kate and Gerry should never have left their children and I can accept that. You find yourself over and over again in your head thinking: ‘Why did they think it would be all right?’
“Why did they think – ALL of them – it was OK to do this?
http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/madeleine-mccanns-grandparents-ask-leave-3490016
IIRC the resort was not suitable from Mark Warners point of view only because a listening service could not be easily performed due to the layout of the site. That logistical problem did not exist for the McCanns (or their friends) as they only had one check each to make and not multiple checks.
However, whether you like it or not - nothing alters the fact that all parents who make the decision to use the 'listening' type of childcare do so for exactly the same reason - and that is because they genuinely believe it to be a safe method. Otherwise they wouldn't do it. The McCanns are no different - they also believed it to be safe and according to the Portuguese AG - they were entitled to hold that view.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing and it's so easy to be wise after the event. That applies to everyone including the McCanns who will never forgive themselves for also holding that genuine belief that it was safe.
Attempts to single them out as being completely different to all other parents who made exactly the same decision for exactly the same reasons don't hold water IMO. The only difference is those other parents were the lucky ones.
AIMHO
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Of course it's not the only bad thing that can happen, stranger abduction is highly UNlikely to happen, but it CAN happen, at least you are now conceding that, previously you seemed to think it neither plausible nor logical that a child could be taken from its bed while its parents were dining a short distance away.
Did I? Or did I say no-one has managed to come up with a plausible and logical theory of who, how and when one particular 'abduction' happened?
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It's not the only bad thing that can happen; didn't you know? That's why the NSPCC advice is to NEVER leave small children home alone. Apparently there's hordes of people in the UK who know better though.
Still ignoring the fact that this obviously does not apply when people are on holiday - as proved by the existence of the Listening Service which, due to it's popularity with parents, has been around at holiday venues for decades and which involves parents leaving their chidren 'home' alone unchecked for short periods of time.
Whether it is right or wrong is another matter, but it is silly to pretend that the above isn't the case. AFAIK no-one has been arrested for offering the service or for using the service.
IMO it should be banned.
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IIRC the resort was not suitable from Mark Warners point of view only because a listening service could not be easily performed due to the layout of the site. That logistical problem did not exist for the McCanns (or their friends) as they only had one check each to make and not multiple checks.
However, whether you like it or not - nothing alters the fact that all parents who make the decision to use the 'listening' type of childcare do so for exactly the same reason - and that is because they genuinely believe it to be a safe method. Otherwise they wouldn't do it. The McCanns are no different - they also believed it to be safe and according to the Portuguese AG - they were entitled to hold that view.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing and it's so easy to be wise after the event. That applies to everyone including the McCanns who will never forgive themselves for also holding that genuine belief that it was safe.
Attempts to single them out as being completely different to all other parents who made exactly the same decision for exactly the same reasons don't hold water IMO. The only difference is those other parents were the lucky ones.
AIMHO
They said they 'thought it was safe', but they have never been asked why they thought it was safe leaving a mobile child access to a dangerous balcony. They have never been asked why they thought it was safe leaving a mobile child access to a kitchen. They have never been asked why they thought it was acceptable to risk letting children cry in a deserted apartment for up to 30 minutes.
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They said they 'thought it was safe', but they have never been asked why they thought it was safe leaving a mobile child access to a dangerous balcony. They have never been asked why they thought it was safe leaving a mobile child access to a kitchen. They have never been asked why they thought it was acceptable to risk letting children cry in a deserted apartment for up to 30 minutes.
If there are listening services in other holiday resorts then there are almost certainly balconies and kitchens in those resorts as well, and yet these services are still on offer and being used by thousands of parents worldwide . Crying for a few minutes does not tend to cause serious harm to a child, in fact some child care experts positively endorse leaving young children to cry themselves to sleep, harsh though it sounds. Unless you mean that the sound of a crying child for several minutes might alert a passing predator to the fact that a child is inside, and a prime target for abduction?
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If there are listening services in other holiday resorts then there are almost certainly balconies and kitchens in those resorts as well, and yet these services are still on offer and being used by thousands of parents worldwide . Crying for a few minutes does not tend to cause serious harm to a child, in fact some child care experts positively endorse leaving young children to cry themselves to sleep, harsh though it sounds. Unless you mean that the sound of a crying child for several minutes might alert a passing predator to the fact that a child is inside, and a prime target for abduction?
I've no idea what other resorts have, nor do I care. If they offer a service they share the responsibility if it goes wrong.
Is 30 minutes a few minutes? Strewth, what do you call a lot? Some child care experts say avoid CIO because it makes the child insecure; take your pick.
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If there are listening services in other holiday resorts then there are almost certainly balconies and kitchens in those resorts as well, and yet these services are still on offer and being used by thousands of parents worldwide . Crying for a few minutes does not tend to cause serious harm to a child, in fact some child care experts positively endorse leaving young children to cry themselves to sleep, harsh though it sounds. Unless you mean that the sound of a crying child for several minutes might alert a passing predator to the fact that a child is inside, and a prime target for abduction?
Anyone who goes out to dinner while on holiday leaving young child unattended are a disgrace and should be prosecuted for neglect.
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Anyone who goes out to dinner while on holiday leaving young child unattended are a disgrace and should be prosecuted for neglect.
I think people who harass an innocent couple on the net are a disgrace and should be prosecuted......unfortunately it isnt up to us individuals
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I've no idea what other resorts have, nor do I care. If they offer a service they share the responsibility if it goes wrong.
Is 30 minutes a few minutes? Strewth, what do you call a lot? Some child care experts say avoid CIO because it makes the child insecure; take your pick.
The point you are avoiding is that thousands of parents have done PRECISELY what the McCanns have done, yet because it ended badly for the McCanns you feel it is necessary to concentrate all your criticism on them.
I don't advocate deliberately leaving children to cry, but I don't think the McCanns did this did they? But had the children cried for a few minutes between half-hourly checks they would not have been at serious risk of harm.
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Anyone who goes out to dinner while on holiday leaving young child unattended are a disgrace and should be prosecuted for neglect.
Was one of those baby monitors good enough?
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Was one of those baby monitors good enough?
Baby monitors are designed to be used within a very short range and fulfill that function quite adequately. Most monitors have a limited range indoors so asking them to perform over 50 metres would be seen as borderline for most units. That said however, if they worked then I see no problem with using them. If needed the parents could be back in their apartment within a minute.
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Was one of those baby monitors good enough?
One of the baby monitors was good enough.
Should or should not there have been 4 baby monitors that were good enough?
Monitors working at that distance were as cheap as chips in 2007. Try Google before anyone asks me for a cite.
The question is - why did only the Paynes have a decent baby monitor?
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I think people who harass an innocent couple on the net are a disgrace and should be prosecuted......unfortunately it isnt up to us individuals
Innocent of what? Leaving their kids home alone in an unlocked apartment? Guilty and admittedly so.
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Baby monitors do not work efficiently over a few metres in my experience. We left our kids to have drinks in our next door neighbour's house which was attached to ours, the baby monitor did not work at all, just emitted white noise.
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The point you are avoiding is that thousands of parents have done PRECISELY what the McCanns have done, yet because it ended badly for the McCanns you feel it is necessary to concentrate all your criticism on them.
I don't advocate deliberately leaving children to cry, but I don't think the McCanns did this did they? But had the children cried for a few minutes between half-hourly checks they would not have been at serious risk of harm.
Who was doing the checking on the Tuesday night when the children were howling for over an hour and seriously disturbed the elderly resident above them?
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Innocent of what? Leaving their kids home alone in an unlocked apartment? Guilty and admittedly so.
So you're accepting it was unlocked now are you?
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Who was doing the checking on the Tuesday night when the children were howling for over an hour and seriously disturbed the elderly resident above them?
If it was the McCann children (and we don't know that for certain) their parents didn't deliberately leave them crying. But what has this got to do with a plausible and logical abduction theory? Aren't you supposed to keep things on topic?
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If it was the McCann children (and we don't know that for certain) their parents didn't deliberately leave them crying. But what has this got to do with a plausible and logical abduction theory? Aren't you supposed to keep things on topic?
Don't come that one again alf, we know it was Madeleine and Sean. Posts moved.
eta you never answered my question, what happened to the claimed 1/2 hr checks on the Tuesday night?
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Baby monitors do not work efficiently over a few metres in my experience. We left our kids to have drinks in our next door neighbour's house which was attached to ours, the baby monitor did not work at all, just emitted white noise.
All depends on the monitor, a £5 set will undoubtedly perfom much worse than a £30 set.
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Don't come that one again alf, we know it was Madeleine and Sean. Posts moved.
eta you never answered my question, what happened to the claimed checks on the Tuesday night?
No you don't know. And why are you asking me what happened? Was I there? No. Are you inviting me to commit libel and say the Tapas Group lied about the frequency of their checks?
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All depends on the monitor, a £5 set will undoubtedly perfom much worse than a £30 set.
LOL. Are you accusing me of being cheap?
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No you don't know. And why are you asking me what happened? Was I there? No. Are you inviting me to commit libel and say the Tapas Group lied about the frequency of their checks?
We all know the checking regime was flexible. So Mrs Fenn and her friend were witness to the howling on the Tue night and according to Kate's book Madeleine told her that she and Sean cried on the Wed night, that means the children cried on two consecutive nights? Was that acceptable parenting in your opinion?
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LOL. Are you accusing me of being cheap?
@)(++(* you did say it wouldn't work.
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We all know the checking regime was flexible.
You seem to know everything so why are you asking me?
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@)(++(* you did say it wouldn't work.
It was the best baby monitor money could buy - in 1999.
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It was the best baby monitor money could buy - in 1999.
Maybe your battery was flat? 8)-))) They tend to lose range with power loss, something to do with physics.
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Maybe your battery was flat? 8)-))) They tend to lose range with power loss, something to do with physics.
Whatever. It didn't work, so we got pissed and let the kids cry themselves to sleep.
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Baby monitors do not work efficiently over a few metres in my experience. We left our kids to have drinks in our next door neighbour's house which was attached to ours, the baby monitor did not work at all, just emitted white noise.
Your experience is sadly lacking.
The Paynes had a monitor. It worked over the distance to the Tapas restaurant. It checked whether it was in communication with the listening pods. It confirmed that it was.
Such baby monitors were not expensive in 2007, as anyone can quickly Google.
The operational radius of baby monitors is extremely important. If the Paynes monitoring set did not work more than a few metres, then you are accusing them of being negligent in the extreme, as they never trotted up to block 5 to check on their children.
Middle ground, the Paynes set worked to the Tapas Restaurant, so negligence in the extreme is not on the cards The Paynes had no need to check.
If, on the other hand, the operational radius was 600m or so, (2007 technology) then the scurrilous scandal of the quiz at Chaplins is fair game.
I researched baby monitor capability in 2007 many months ago. For the simple reason that the Paynes were OK to rely on a decent baby monitor. For the complex reason that would a baby monitor in 2007 reach Chaplins.
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Your experience is sadly lacking.
The Paynes had a monitor. It worked over the distance to the Tapas restaurant. It checked whether it was in communication with the listening pods. It confirmed that it was.
Such baby monitors were not expensive in 2007, as anyone can quickly Google.
The operational radius of baby monitors is extremely important. If the Paynes monitoring set did not work more than a few metres, then you are accusing them of being negligent in the extreme, as they never trotted up to block 5 to check on their children.
Middle ground, the Paynes set worked to the Tapas Restaurant, so negligence in the extreme is not on the cards The Paynes had no need to check.
If, on the other hand, the operational radius was 600m or so, (2007 technology) then the scurrilous scandal of the quiz at Chaplins is fair game.
I researched baby monitor capability in 2007 many months ago. For the simple reason that the Paynes were OK to rely on a decent baby monitor. For the complex reason that would a baby monitor in 2007 reach Chaplins.
Would you kindly stop accusing me of accusing members of the Tapas group, it's really getting on my nerves. I relayed MY experience of baby monitors which may well be "sadly lacking" compared to your vastly superior knowledge of the subject but it was my experience, do you really have to try and belittle everything I write on this forum?
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We used baby monitors constantly when our children were babes and never really had a problem but then the distance between the sender unit and the receiver was only a short distance and certainly less than 20 metres. They are handy devices if used correctly and give parents a lot of piece of mind when putting young children to bed. I'm surprised only the Paynes thought to take such a device on holiday.
SiL mentioned background noise in the tapas in a previous post but this might not have been an issue as many monitors have a LED on the receiver which flashes when a noise is made in the children's bedroom.
(http://thumbs.picclick.com/00/s/MTYwMFgxNjAw/z/W~kAAOSwmfhX2s-W/$/Tomy-Recharge-About-Vintage-Baby-_57.jpg) (http://s.ecrater.com/stores/12855/4addb7782cebc_12855n.jpg)
Typical sound and light baby monitor sets from the late 90's
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Would you kindly stop accusing me of accusing members of the Tapas group, it's really getting on my nerves. I relayed MY experience of baby monitors which may well be "sadly lacking" compared to your vastly superior knowledge of the subject but it was my experience, do you really have to try and belittle everything I write on this forum?
Frankly, should I bow to your experience? Whether such is relevant to the case or not? This is not about you and it is not about me. Is it?
The Paynes had a baby monitor that worked to the Tapas restaurant. Supposedly. I have got no reason to disbelieve this, for the simplest of simple reasons that cheap baby monitors worked over that distance, in 2007. Check for yourself.
One lot of the T9 had a monitor but they weren't sure if it worked over that distance. Don't ask me for a cite. Try the T9 statements or Kate's book. That cuts us down to 6 of the 9 needing to check.
My relevant experience of baby monitors is extremely simple. The baby would be asleep in one of our rooms upstairs in our detached house, thus 100% safe. But the parents would insist on using a baby monitor 2m away in our lounge, turned up full volume, so that we could hear every time the little one turned over.
3 of the Tapas 9 relied on a baby monitor that worked. 6 did not. Madeleine paid the price.
There was in 2007 and still is a shop in Luz close to 5A, that possibly did, but might not, have sold baby monitors as good as the Paynes.
50€?
I think that would cover it in 2007.
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http://www.momtricks.com/baby-monitors/best-long-range-baby-monitors/
*snipped*
The Motorola MBP36 (click here to check price) is a great baby monitor that boasts a range of up to 650 feet, which should hopefully be enough for most people.
Of course, the distance is dependent on having nothing obstructing the signal, so if there are trees in the way, you might not get quite as much distance out of it. This is the same story with every baby monitor, though.
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http://www.momtricks.com/baby-monitors/best-long-range-baby-monitors/
*snipped*
The Motorola MBP36 (click here to check price) is a great baby monitor that boasts a range of up to 650 feet, which should hopefully be enough for most people.
Of course, the distance is dependent on having nothing obstructing the signal, so if there are trees in the way, you might not get quite as much distance out of it. This is the same story with every baby monitor, though.
What I meant in the first question to John was if a child was abducted from a room monitored by a baby monitor that: would society be happy with that level of parental care?
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What I meant in the first question to John was if a child was abducted from a room monitored by a baby monitor that: would society be happy with that level of parental care?
If a fire had broken out, would a baby monitor allow a parent to hear anything?
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If a fire had broken out, would a baby monitor allow a parent to hear anything?
Probably not , but in NZ the try and get everyone to have a smoke alarm, and hence that would be heard.
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Frankly, should I bow to your experience? Whether such is relevant to the case or not? This is not about you and it is not about me. Is it?
The Paynes had a baby monitor that worked to the Tapas restaurant. Supposedly. I have got no reason to disbelieve this, for the simplest of simple reasons that cheap baby monitors worked over that distance, in 2007. Check for yourself.
One lot of the T9 had a monitor but they weren't sure if it worked over that distance. Don't ask me for a cite. Try the T9 statements or Kate's book. That cuts us down to 6 of the 9 needing to check.
My relevant experience of baby monitors is extremely simple. The baby would be asleep in one of our rooms upstairs in our detached house, thus 100% safe. But the parents would insist on using a baby monitor 2m away in our lounge, turned up full volume, so that we could hear every time the little one turned over.
3 of the Tapas 9 relied on a baby monitor that worked. 6 did not. Madeleine paid the price.
There was in 2007 and still is a shop in Luz close to 5A, that possibly did, but might not, have sold baby monitors as good as the Paynes.
50€?
I think that would cover it in 2007.
I'm not asking you to bow to anything, but being a little less confrontational, falsely accusatory and needlessly rude would be nice. Still, it's good to see someone accepting the word of members of the Tapas group without question, it makes a change on here. Personally, I think the Paynes method of child monitoring was less acceptable than the other members of the group, but that's just my opinion, I'm not expecting anyone to bow to me. Hope that's clear.
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Who was doing the checking on the Tuesday night when the children were howling for over an hour and seriously disturbed the elderly resident above them?
Not so John. Mrs Fenn only heard one child crying on Tuesday night.
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Not so John. Mrs Fenn only heard one child crying on Tuesday night.
It would have been extremely difficult for someone living directly above 5a to identify more than one child crying so for all intents and purposes she chose to go with the child crying option. Since the crying went on for over an hour it is most probable that one or both of the twins picked up on the distress and joined in to a greater or lesser degree.
For those who claim the crying didn't come from 5a, consider this. The crying stopped instantly the moment the patio doors to 5a were opened by the parents on their return from their extended night out.
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It would have been extremely difficult for someone living directly above 5a to identify more than one child crying so for all intents and purposes she chose to go with the child crying option. Since the crying went on for over an hour it is most probable that one or both of the twins picked up on the distress and joined in to a greater or lesser degree.
For those who claim the crying didn't come from 5a, consider this. The crying stopped instantly the moment the patio doors to 5a were opened by the parents on their return from their extended night out.
Their 'extended' night out was the following night.
I find it hard to believe that it is possible for anyone not to be able to tell the difference between one child crying and two children crying at the same time.
(Must go out now).
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Their 'extended' night out was the following night.
I find it hard to believe that it is possible for anyone not to be able to tell the difference between one child crying and two children crying at the same time.
(Must go out now).
Very easily especially when there were three children all under four years of age. Didn't Mrs Fenn hear a child calling for daddy?
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Very easily especially when there were three children all under four years of age. Didn't Mrs Fenn hear a child calling for daddy?
If one child in that bedroom was crying loudly for over an hour then the other two would have been disturbed & cried also. Fact.
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It would have been extremely difficult for someone living directly above 5a to identify more than one child crying so for all intents and purposes she chose to go with the child crying option. Since the crying went on for over an hour it is most probable that one or both of the twins picked up on the distress and joined in to a greater or lesser degree.
For those who claim the crying didn't come from 5a, consider this. The crying stopped instantly the moment the patio doors to 5a were opened by the parents on their return from their extended night out.
Cite for the noise from the patio doors being those to 5A please Angelo. I dont remember anything that confirmed that either the noise of the crying, nor the noise of the patio doors came from 5A
But I am willing to be corrected
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If one child in that bedroom was crying loudly for over an hour then the other two would have been disturbed & cried also. Fact.
Unless they had been given something to help them sleep. After all they didn't wake through all the commotion on the 3rd.
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Unless they had been given something to help them sleep. After all they didn't wake through all the commotion on the 3rd.
Are you suggesting that the McCanns forgot to sedate one of their kids? &%+((£
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Are you suggesting that the McCanns forgot to sedate one of their kids? &%+((£
As I pointed out. they didn't wake through all the commotion on the 3rd so it's reasonable to assume that they could have stayed asleep through Madeleine's crying on the 1st for the same reason, which Kate thought was sedation.
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As I pointed out. they didn't wake through all the commotion on the 3rd so it's reasonable to assume that they could have stayed asleep through Madeleine's crying on the 1st for the same reason, which Kate thought was sedation.
No one seems to want to touch this conundrum.
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No one seems to want to touch this conundrum.
This is a conundrum of your own invention and relies solely on your implied belief that the McCanns routinely sedated their children on holiday. No wonder no one wants to discuss it, because to do so presumably would be libellous which is frowned upon on this forum (allegedly).
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Cite for the noise from the patio doors being those to 5A please Angelo. I dont remember anything that confirmed that either the noise of the crying, nor the noise of the patio doors came from 5A
But I am willing to be corrected
Same old question Sadie? Put it this way, Mrs Fenn lived above 5a so whose flipping patio door would it have been?
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No one seems to want to touch this conundrum.
"Mummy, why didn't you come when me & Sean were crying?" .....Madeleine on Thursday morning.
Amelie cried on the Tuesday night after the parents returned from dinner according to Kate.
Evidence any of them were sedated prior to the 3rd?
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This is a conundrum of your own invention and relies solely on your implied belief that the McCanns routinely sedated their children on holiday. No wonder no one wants to discuss it, because to do so presumably would be libellous which is frowned upon on this forum (allegedly).
Not at all. Sedation was only mentioned because Kate had thought sedation may have been used on 3rd of May.
My question was if the twins did not wake with all the commotion going on in 5a on the 3rd why do supporters not see that it is therefore perfectly reasonable that Madeleine could indeed have howled at the top of her lungs for 90 minutes without the twins waking? Don't you agree?
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Not at all. Sedation was only mentioned because Kate had thought sedation may have been used on 3rd of May.
My question was if the twins did not wake with all the commotion going on in 5a on the 3rd why do supporters not see that it is therefore perfectly reasonable that Madeleine could indeed have howled at the top of her lungs for 90 minutes without the twins waking? Don't you agree?
Yes I do agree. I don't think it's possible to say with any certainty that the children would have woken up simply because one was crying. I don't however believe that any of them was howling at the top of their lungs, and if they were I would say it was most remiss of Mrs Fenn not to call reception and get something down about it.
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Yes I do agree. I don't think it's possible to say with any certainty that the children would have woken up simply because one was crying. I don't however believe that any of them was howling at the top of their lungs, and if they were I would say it was most remiss of Mrs Fenn not to call reception and get something down about it.
Why was it Mrs Fenn's responsibility? How was she to know the children had been left on their own ?
Good to hear that at least you're intelligent enough to realise that Mrs Fenn's statement that the children were left for 90 minutes is entirely possible.
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Why was it Mrs Fenn's responsibility? How was she to know the children had been left on their own ?
Good to hear that at least you're intelligent enough to realise that Mrs Fenn's statement that the children were left for 90 minutes is entirely possible.
Where do you get 90 minutes from? I thought it was approximately 75 mins.
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Why was it Mrs Fenn's responsibility? How was she to know the children had been left on their own ?
Good to hear that at least you're intelligent enough to realise that Mrs Fenn's statement that the children were left for 90 minutes is entirely possible.
If you heard a child screaming at the top of its voice for 90 solid minutes do you not think you might (at the very least) complain to reception? First you ask how did Mrs Fenn know the children had been left alone and then you mention "Mrs Fenn's statement that the children were left for 90 minutes" - do you have a cite for the latter please?
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Where do you get 90 minutes from? I thought it was approximately 75 mins.
Apologies, 75 minutes.
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If you heard a child screaming at the top of its voice for 90 solid minutes do you not think you might (at the very least) complain to reception? First you ask how did Mrs Fenn know the children had been left alone and then you mention "Mrs Fenn's statement that the children were left for 90 minutes" - do you have a cite for the latter please?
Apologies the left should be crying. I really should try to type more slowly.
As to your first question, it doesn't matter what I'd do Mrs Fenn didn't.
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Apologies the left should be crying. I really should try to type more slowly.
As to your first question, it doesn't matter what I'd do Mrs Fenn didn't.
I know she didnt, which leads me to believe the crying wasn't likely to be non-stop screaming. A child screaming hysterically at the top of their lungs for 5 minutes is hard to cope with, never mind 75 minutes.
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I know she didnt, which leads me to believe the crying wasn't likely to be non-stop screaming. A child screaming hysterically at the top of their lungs for 5 minutes is hard to cope with, never mind 75 minutes.
Screaming, crying, howling, it makes no difference. The main point is the McCanns claimed they had been checking every 30 minutes when obviously this wasn't true.
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Screaming, crying, howling, it makes no difference. The main point is the McCanns claimed they had been checking every 30 minutes when obviously this wasn't true.
Maybe. Or maybe the crying wasn't solid for 75 minutes as I said earlier, and happened over a period of 75 minutes and between checks. Or maybe it was another kid altogether in the next door apartment. We will never know the answer to this one.
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Maybe. Or maybe the crying wasn't solid for 75 minutes as I said earlier, and happened over a period of 75 minutes and between checks. Or maybe it was another kid altogether in the next door apartment. We will never know the answer to this one.
Between checks? @)(++(* My Madeleine was certainly a very considerate child. Imagine she'd cried ON their checks. They may even have had to stay.
We'll never know. Oh I think we already do.
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Yes I do agree. I don't think it's possible to say with any certainty that the children would have woken up simply because one was crying. I don't however believe that any of them was howling at the top of their lungs, and if they were I would say it was most remiss of Mrs Fenn not to call reception and get something down about it.
Why would Mrs Fenn call reception when she wasn't part of the OC?
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Why would Mrs Fenn call reception when she wasn't part of the OC?
She would know that the apartment below was rented out by OC. Far better to report to the managers than confront the holidaymakers.
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She would know that the apartment below was rented out by OC. Far better to report to the managers than confront the holidaymakers.
She did neither. It doesn't however mean she didn't hear Madeleine crying.
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She would know that the apartment below was rented out by OC. Far better to report to the managers than confront the holidaymakers.
May I ask you upon which basis you think Mrs Fenn knew the number of OC 24hr reception?
I am not being unkindly. I am trying to work out if this is supposition or if there is some evidence to support it.
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May I ask you upon which basis you think Mrs Fenn knew the number of OC 24hr reception?
I am not being unkindly. I am trying to work out if this is supposition or if there is some evidence to support it.
I was under the impression that private owners had access to the Ocean Club facilities so that may be one means Mrs Fenn could have acquired OC/Greentrust's phone number. She may have needed it for maintenance issues. Would her apartment be leasehold?
There is always the phone directory too.
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I was under the impression that private owners had access to the Ocean Club facilities so that may be one means Mrs Fenn could have acquired OC/Greentrust's phone number. She may have needed it for maintenance issues. Would her apartment be leasehold?
There is always the phone directory too.
If the McCanns chose to indaequately monitor their own children why should Mrs Fenn do it for them?
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If the McCanns chose to indaequately monitor their own children why should Mrs Fenn do it for them?
To complain about the incessant howling? If it really was screaming for 75 minutes non-stop that must have been intolerable.
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If the McCanns chose to indaequately monitor their own children why should Mrs Fenn do it for them?
She didn't have to monitor them but I'm a bit surprised she didn't make a complaint or mention it to anyone in the immediate aftermath. I'm also surprised she could hear the patio doors, given that next door couldn't.
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I was under the impression that private owners had access to the Ocean Club facilities so that may be one means Mrs Fenn could have acquired OC/Greentrust's phone number. She may have needed it for maintenance issues. Would her apartment be leasehold?
There is always the phone directory too.
I simply do not know for a fact, but I don't believe her apartment was maintained by the OC. On the visit of my last Luz Tour (Oct 16), we had a very quick peek at the exterior of 5H. There is a large smooth sea-washed boulder on the balcony outside 5H. Upon that rock is painted the single word "Fenn".
I presume one or more of the children inherited when Mrs Fenn died.
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I simply do not know for a fact, but I don't believe her apartment was maintained by the OC. On the visit of my last Luz Tour (Oct 16), we had a very quick peek at the exterior of 5H. There is a large smooth sea-washed boulder on the balcony outside 5H. Upon that rock is painted the single word "Fenn".
I presume one or more of the children inherited when Mrs Fenn died.
The communal landing/stairs/lift etc would be maintained by OC & if there were any issues the residents would have to have a point of contact with OC.
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She didn't have to monitor them but I'm a bit surprised she didn't make a complaint or mention it to anyone in the immediate aftermath. I'm also surprised she could hear the patio doors, given that next door couldn't.
She mentioned it to her friend that very night and who knows who else in the preceding days.
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She mentioned it to her friend that very night and who knows who else in the preceding days.
Shame isn't it that no one bothered to check with her friend and record her statement.
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The communal landing/stairs/lift etc would be maintained by OC & if there were any issues the residents would have to have a point of contact with OC.
Fair does.
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She mentioned it to her friend that very night and who knows who else in the preceding days.
Idle gossip in a supermarket can be heard by ears of evil,
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Idle gossip in a supermarket can be heard by ears of evil,
Mrs Fennwouldnt have known the children were being left alone.
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Mrs Fennwouldnt have known the children were being left alone.
Maybe she did - but we'll never know. She certainly said that the crying stopped when the parents returned - how did she know it was the parents going in and not someone going out?
"At about 23.45, an hour and fifteen minutes after the crying began, she heard the parents arrive, she did not see them, but she heard the patio doors open, she was quite worried as the crying had gone on for more than an hour and had gradually got worse.
When questioned, she said that she did not know the cause of the crying, perhaps a nightmare or another destabilising factor.
As soon as the parents entered the child stopped crying"
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Maybe she did - but we'll never know. She certainly said that the crying stopped when the parents returned - how did she know it was the parents going in and not someone going out?
"At about 23.45, an hour and fifteen minutes after the crying began, she heard the parents arrive, she did not see them, but she heard the patio doors open, she was quite worried as the crying had gone on for more than an hour and had gradually got worse.
When questioned, she said that she did not know the cause of the crying, perhaps a nightmare or another destabilising factor.
As soon as the parents entered the child stopped crying"
I would guess she assumed the parents were coming home because by the time she made her statement it was widely known that the children had been left alone every night.