Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: icabodcrane on May 28, 2013, 05:06:22 PM
Title: Scotland Yard are examining phone traffic in PDL on May 3 2007
Post by: icabodcrane on May 28, 2013, 05:06:22 PM
What would a forensic examination of the phone traffic that night reveal ?
Does it mean that Scotland Yard would be able to see all calls that were made in the resort that night ... when they were made, from who's phones, and to whom the calls were made ?
Title: Re: Scotland Yard are examining phone traffic in PDL on May 3 2007
Post by: Carana on May 28, 2013, 05:59:31 PM
What would a forensic examination of the phone traffic that night reveal ?
Does it mean that Scotland Yard would be able to see all calls that were made in the resort that night ... when they were made, from who's phones, and to whom the calls were made ?
I had thought that the PJ had done quite a good job on the phone analysis.
I'm not sure I've found all the files on this, so far this seems to be the main one: http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/OUSTROS_APENSOS_13_TEL.htm
But it's an analysis of the T9 calls / pings.
There must be more than that somewhere.
Title: Re: Scotland Yard are examining phone traffic in PDL on May 3 2007
Post by: amaraltheofficeboy on May 28, 2013, 06:16:50 PM
What would a forensic examination of the phone traffic that night reveal ?
Does it mean that Scotland Yard would be able to see all calls that were made in the resort that night ... when they were made, from who's phones, and to whom the calls were made ?
I would answer - yes.
Title: Re: Scotland Yard are examining phone traffic in PDL on May 3 2007
Post by: DCI on May 28, 2013, 06:21:32 PM
What would a forensic examination of the phone traffic that night reveal ? Does it mean that Scotland Yard would be able to see all calls that were made in the resort that night ... when they were made, from who's phones, and to whom the calls were made ?
I would answer - yes.
Good! I do hope that includes all PJ and GNR calls, especially Amarals, calls ?>)()<
Title: Re: Scotland Yard are examining phone traffic in PDL on May 3 2007
Post by: icabodcrane on May 28, 2013, 06:24:46 PM
What would a forensic examination of the phone traffic that night reveal ?
Does it mean that Scotland Yard would be able to see all calls that were made in the resort that night ... when they were made, from who's phones, and to whom the calls were made ?
I had thought that the PJ had done quite a good job on the phone analysis.
I'm not sure I've found all the files on this, so far this seems to be the main one: http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/OUSTROS_APENSOS_13_TEL.htm
But it's an analysis of the T9 calls / pings.
There must be more than that somewhere.
Thanks carana
I agree, that looks like a very thorough examination of the tapas group's phone details
Perhaps Scotland Yard are examining phone traffic that night in general, and are looking at phone details of people other than the Mccanns and their friends ... which can't be a bad thing
Title: Re: Scotland Yard are examining phone traffic in PDL on May 3 2007
Post by: amaraltheofficeboy on May 28, 2013, 06:33:02 PM
What would a forensic examination of the phone traffic that night reveal ? Does it mean that Scotland Yard would be able to see all calls that were made in the resort that night ... when they were made, from who's phones, and to whom the calls were made ?
I would answer - yes.
Good! I do hope that includes all PJ and GNR calls, especially Amarals, calls ?>)()<
yes and maybe to emergency services from mobiles
Title: Re: Scotland Yard are examining phone traffic in PDL on May 3 2007
Post by: amaraltheofficeboy on May 28, 2013, 06:34:08 PM
oh it certainly won't be a bad thing to examine all mobile phone calls around that time - in fact it may be quite damning for some people
Title: Re: Scotland Yard are examining phone traffic in PDL on May 3 2007
Post by: Carana on May 28, 2013, 06:45:08 PM
There is a bit more in the files - the OC logs, recording the calls to the GNR, and various bits relating to Murat.
But I was under the impression that all calls in the vicinity had been analysed. Now I have a doubt.
Title: Re: Scotland Yard are examining phone traffic in PDL on May 3 2007
Post by: registrar on May 28, 2013, 06:52:06 PM
Murat and/or Malinka calling G or K that night (or vice versa)
now that would be a smoking gun
right there
Title: Re: Scotland Yard are examining phone traffic in PDL on May 3 2007
Post by: Carana on May 28, 2013, 06:58:51 PM
Murat was in the employ of the PJ following the disappearance
Well he pushed himself, as a translator, if you call that being in the employ of the PJ.
Now something just occurred to me.
Amaral, asked a GNR, who Murat was. So where was Amaral, when Murat was at the station, translating, from the 4th May?
Please dont derail this thread into another anti Amaral lynch thread, start your own for that
OP, I do believe every single phone transaction can be accessed by police
So would they already know the details of the calls Gerry and Kate deleted from their phones ?
I believe so
David Payne got them all new mobiles the next day, not sure if police can trace uncontracted phones to anyone
Why did they need new phones ? .... did the police take their old ones ?
Payne said their ran out of their batteries or somethng, give me a few mins will get the quote
Title: Re: Scotland Yard are examining phone traffic in PDL on May 3 2007
Post by: Redblossom on May 28, 2013, 10:18:47 PM
1485 ”Who lent you these phones that Simon ALDRIDGE had organised for you?” Reply ”Err I mean, Si, Simon’s brother err is a gentleman called Nick and Nick’s wife Nicky had got friends out in the Algarve and they were just you know basic people who were just willing to help us in whatever capacity it was, whether we wanted a room for the night or anything and they asked is there anything we can do, err whether they could do, and err and that was, you know, that was one thing we said well actually you know err Kate’s phone’s nearly ran out, we’re sat, we don’t know how long we’re gonna be at the Police Station you know could, you know, can they, you know is there any way of getting phones to us just so that you know, we can, for communication. Err and err so that was, that was a capacity really err of people.” 1485 ”And where were these phones, when did these phones arrive?” Reply ”Err when did we get the phones? When we were at the Police Station, err you know as, you know I just asked whether I could just pop downstairs there was someone who’s brought us phones and they said yeah, so I quickly popped downstairs, got the phones, and took them back into the Police Station. Err I can’t remember if there was any power in them when we opened them up but err so then that was, you know, so the phones were just, you know because we hadn’t got any other, anything there, so.” 1485 ”And what phones were they? Do you remember what sort of, what make they were?” Reply ”Err they were Samsung phones, err and I think they were Vodaphone SIM cards. Err the actual model, I can’t tell you the Samsung phone but they were, something like the Samsung three hundred, something like that.” 1485 ”Yeah, how many phones were there?” Reply ”There was, there was two err and we ended up, err again, we ended up keeping one and Kate and Gerry had one, I think we gave the second one to Kate and Gerry as well after a while but we were err you know because they’d got credit put on to them so we were just using those phones rather than run up the expense of our own phones.” 1485 ”Yeah.” Reply ”So err yeah.” 1485 ”So the two phones, you’ve kept one and gave one to Kate and Gerry?” Reply ”Kate and Gerry yeah.” 1485 ”And do you have the numbers of those phones in your phone?” Reply ”I don’t, no, no.” 1485 ”Where are these phones now?” Reply ”Err as far as I am aware that they, you know, remained in Portugal, again…” 1485 ”With whom?” Reply ”With Kate and Gerry.” 1485 ”So Kate and Gerry took possession of that second phone which you had?” Reply ”Well, they certainly kept the first one, the second one, the second one, sorry, no I think that’s rubbish. I think I, I may well have got the, I might have got the second phone. Actually I’ve got a sneaky feeling when I got home I tried the UK SIM card in it and it didn’t work so I could well have got the second phone.” 1485 ”So is it likely that this second phone is at your home address?” Reply ”Err that is a strong possibility.” 1485 ”So two Samsung phones.” Reply ”Yeah, yeah.” 1485 ”One is, to your knowledge, still with Kate and Gerry.” Reply ”Yeah.” 1485 ”The other one you may well have at your home address.” Reply ”Yeah, yeah.” 1485 ”Did you use the phones often?” Reply ”Not…” 1485 ”In Portugal?” Reply ”Not a great deal no, no, it was, it was, first of all you know we didn’t have any numbers in them already and then with being a Portuguese phone you know it was just a bit more difficult so we, if we ever used them, I mean which wasn’t often, we’d perhaps call Kate and Gerry using the Portuguese phone, but it wasn’t a kind of religious oh we’ll just use the, that Portuguese phone to err you know establish communication.” 1485 ”Yeah.” Reply ”Err you know and the other reason that we, we had the, one of the phones is because Fiona didn’t have a phone either so you know, so it’s like she had the use of the other phone as well.” 1485 ”Right, so out of the two of you then, who predominantly used that phone?” Reply ”I’d say Fiona.” 1485 ”Fiona?” Reply ”Yeah.” 1485 ”And has it been used since it’s been in the UK?” Reply ”No.” 1485 ”Okay, okay.” Reply ”And I’m just trying to think you know how much, you know the, the, I can’t remember you know obviously we were there for four weeks after but when the actual credit ran out, because I remember the credit running out and not being able to actually put anymore on even though it’s supposed to be quite straight forward but again, you know whether that was after, you know, three weeks of being out there or whatever I can’t remember.” 1485 ”Yeah, how many times do you think you topped it up then?” Reply ”I don’t, I don’t think we did, I don’t think I did. I don’t think I could work out how to do it to be honest.” 1485 ”So when both of them arrived both of them had credit on them?” Reply ”They put, I think they put, I think err I think they put forty pound credit or forty euros, you know, which seemed to last a lot longer than the amount of credit we were (inaudible) we were using our own err mobile phones.” 1485 ”Just wait there a second I’ll just (inaudible).” Reply ”Okay.” DC MESSIAH leaves the interview room. DC MESSIAH re-enters the interview room. 1485 ”All done.” Reply ”Okay.” 1485 ”The phone, is it likely that I could collect it when I take you home?” Reply ”I can certainly have a look for it and I can give you, I mean if you, if you wanted to have my other mobile phone with all the numbers in and you know if you can access text messages on that you’re welcome to have that phone.” 1485 ”Okay, do you know where you’d be able to put your hand on it if you…” Reply ”Err the Samsung one, again, there was a Vodaphone bag that was knocking around, and that would be where it is if err I can find it. Fiona might know.” 1485 ”Okay, perhaps you could give her a call or something.” Reply ”Yeah, yeah.” 1485 ”Alright then, it’s now sixteen forty on this date.” The interview ceased at 1640 hours when the tape recorder was switched off.
Title: Re: Scotland Yard are examining phone traffic in PDL on May 3 2007
Post by: icabodcrane on May 28, 2013, 11:53:34 PM
1485 ”Who lent you these phones that Simon ALDRIDGE had organised for you?” Reply ”Err I mean, Si, Simon’s brother err is a gentleman called Nick and Nick’s wife Nicky had got friends out in the Algarve and they were just you know basic people who were just willing to help us in whatever capacity it was, whether we wanted a room for the night or anything and they asked is there anything we can do, err whether they could do, and err and that was, you know, that was one thing we said well actually you know err Kate’s phone’s nearly ran out, we’re sat, we don’t know how long we’re gonna be at the Police Station you know could, you know, can they, you know is there any way of getting phones to us just so that you know, we can, for communication. Err and err so that was, that was a capacity really err of people.” 1485 ”And where were these phones, when did these phones arrive?” Reply ”Err when did we get the phones? When we were at the Police Station, err you know as, you know I just asked whether I could just pop downstairs there was someone who’s brought us phones and they said yeah, so I quickly popped downstairs, got the phones, and took them back into the Police Station. Err I can’t remember if there was any power in them when we opened them up but err so then that was, you know, so the phones were just, you know because we hadn’t got any other, anything there, so.” 1485 ”And what phones were they? Do you remember what sort of, what make they were?” Reply ”Err they were Samsung phones, err and I think they were Vodaphone SIM cards. Err the actual model, I can’t tell you the Samsung phone but they were, something like the Samsung three hundred, something like that.” 1485 ”Yeah, how many phones were there?” Reply ”There was, there was two err and we ended up, err again, we ended up keeping one and Kate and Gerry had one, I think we gave the second one to Kate and Gerry as well after a while but we were err you know because they’d got credit put on to them so we were just using those phones rather than run up the expense of our own phones.” 1485 ”Yeah.” Reply ”So err yeah.” 1485 ”So the two phones, you’ve kept one and gave one to Kate and Gerry?” Reply ”Kate and Gerry yeah.” 1485 ”And do you have the numbers of those phones in your phone?” Reply ”I don’t, no, no.” 1485 ”Where are these phones now?” Reply ”Err as far as I am aware that they, you know, remained in Portugal, again…” 1485 ”With whom?” Reply ”With Kate and Gerry.” 1485 ”So Kate and Gerry took possession of that second phone which you had?” Reply ”Well, they certainly kept the first one, the second one, the second one, sorry, no I think that’s rubbish. I think I, I may well have got the, I might have got the second phone. Actually I’ve got a sneaky feeling when I got home I tried the UK SIM card in it and it didn’t work so I could well have got the second phone.” 1485 ”So is it likely that this second phone is at your home address?” Reply ”Err that is a strong possibility.” 1485 ”So two Samsung phones.” Reply ”Yeah, yeah.” 1485 ”One is, to your knowledge, still with Kate and Gerry.” Reply ”Yeah.” 1485 ”The other one you may well have at your home address.” Reply ”Yeah, yeah.” 1485 ”Did you use the phones often?” Reply ”Not…” 1485 ”In Portugal?” Reply ”Not a great deal no, no, it was, it was, first of all you know we didn’t have any numbers in them already and then with being a Portuguese phone you know it was just a bit more difficult so we, if we ever used them, I mean which wasn’t often, we’d perhaps call Kate and Gerry using the Portuguese phone, but it wasn’t a kind of religious oh we’ll just use the, that Portuguese phone to err you know establish communication.” 1485 ”Yeah.” Reply ”Err you know and the other reason that we, we had the, one of the phones is because Fiona didn’t have a phone either so you know, so it’s like she had the use of the other phone as well.” 1485 ”Right, so out of the two of you then, who predominantly used that phone?” Reply ”I’d say Fiona.” 1485 ”Fiona?” Reply ”Yeah.” 1485 ”And has it been used since it’s been in the UK?” Reply ”No.” 1485 ”Okay, okay.” Reply ”And I’m just trying to think you know how much, you know the, the, I can’t remember you know obviously we were there for four weeks after but when the actual credit ran out, because I remember the credit running out and not being able to actually put anymore on even though it’s supposed to be quite straight forward but again, you know whether that was after, you know, three weeks of being out there or whatever I can’t remember.” 1485 ”Yeah, how many times do you think you topped it up then?” Reply ”I don’t, I don’t think we did, I don’t think I did. I don’t think I could work out how to do it to be honest.” 1485 ”So when both of them arrived both of them had credit on them?” Reply ”They put, I think they put, I think err I think they put forty pound credit or forty euros, you know, which seemed to last a lot longer than the amount of credit we were (inaudible) we were using our own err mobile phones.” 1485 ”Just wait there a second I’ll just (inaudible).” Reply ”Okay.” DC MESSIAH leaves the interview room. DC MESSIAH re-enters the interview room. 1485 ”All done.” Reply ”Okay.” 1485 ”The phone, is it likely that I could collect it when I take you home?” Reply ”I can certainly have a look for it and I can give you, I mean if you, if you wanted to have my other mobile phone with all the numbers in and you know if you can access text messages on that you’re welcome to have that phone.” 1485 ”Okay, do you know where you’d be able to put your hand on it if you…” Reply ”Err the Samsung one, again, there was a Vodaphone bag that was knocking around, and that would be where it is if err I can find it. Fiona might know.” 1485 ”Okay, perhaps you could give her a call or something.” Reply ”Yeah, yeah.” 1485 ”Alright then, it’s now sixteen forty on this date.” The interview ceased at 1640 hours when the tape recorder was switched off.
Thanks for bringing us that transcript Redblossom
It's astonishing ... half way through David Payne 'changes his mind' about the second phone and says that what he had said just moments before was 'rubbish' ! ... he suddenly recalls that he didn't give it to Kate and Gerry at all, but that he has a 'sneaky feeling' he has it at home somewhere in a vodaphone bag that was 'knocking around'
Quite astonishing
Title: Re: Scotland Yard are examining phone traffic in PDL on May 3 2007
Post by: Benice on May 29, 2013, 12:02:57 AM
1485 ”Who lent you these phones that Simon ALDRIDGE had organised for you?” Reply ”Err I mean, Si, Simon’s brother err is a gentleman called Nick and Nick’s wife Nicky had got friends out in the Algarve and they were just you know basic people who were just willing to help us in whatever capacity it was, whether we wanted a room for the night or anything and they asked is there anything we can do, err whether they could do, and err and that was, you know, that was one thing we said well actually you know err Kate’s phone’s nearly ran out, we’re sat, we don’t know how long we’re gonna be at the Police Station you know could, you know, can they, you know is there any way of getting phones to us just so that you know, we can, for communication. Err and err so that was, that was a capacity really err of people.” 1485 ”And where were these phones, when did these phones arrive?” Reply ”Err when did we get the phones? When we were at the Police Station, err you know as, you know I just asked whether I could just pop downstairs there was someone who’s brought us phones and they said yeah, so I quickly popped downstairs, got the phones, and took them back into the Police Station. Err I can’t remember if there was any power in them when we opened them up but err so then that was, you know, so the phones were just, you know because we hadn’t got any other, anything there, so.” 1485 ”And what phones were they? Do you remember what sort of, what make they were?” Reply ”Err they were Samsung phones, err and I think they were Vodaphone SIM cards. Err the actual model, I can’t tell you the Samsung phone but they were, something like the Samsung three hundred, something like that.” 1485 ”Yeah, how many phones were there?” Reply ”There was, there was two err and we ended up, err again, we ended up keeping one and Kate and Gerry had one, I think we gave the second one to Kate and Gerry as well after a while but we were err you know because they’d got credit put on to them so we were just using those phones rather than run up the expense of our own phones.” 1485 ”Yeah.” Reply ”So err yeah.” 1485 ”So the two phones, you’ve kept one and gave one to Kate and Gerry?” Reply ”Kate and Gerry yeah.” 1485 ”And do you have the numbers of those phones in your phone?” Reply ”I don’t, no, no.” 1485 ”Where are these phones now?” Reply ”Err as far as I am aware that they, you know, remained in Portugal, again…” 1485 ”With whom?” Reply ”With Kate and Gerry.” 1485 ”So Kate and Gerry took possession of that second phone which you had?” Reply ”Well, they certainly kept the first one, the second one, the second one, sorry, no I think that’s rubbish. I think I, I may well have got the, I might have got the second phone. Actually I’ve got a sneaky feeling when I got home I tried the UK SIM card in it and it didn’t work so I could well have got the second phone.” 1485 ”So is it likely that this second phone is at your home address?” Reply ”Err that is a strong possibility.” 1485 ”So two Samsung phones.” Reply ”Yeah, yeah.” 1485 ”One is, to your knowledge, still with Kate and Gerry.” Reply ”Yeah.” 1485 ”The other one you may well have at your home address.” Reply ”Yeah, yeah.” 1485 ”Did you use the phones often?” Reply ”Not…” 1485 ”In Portugal?” Reply ”Not a great deal no, no, it was, it was, first of all you know we didn’t have any numbers in them already and then with being a Portuguese phone you know it was just a bit more difficult so we, if we ever used them, I mean which wasn’t often, we’d perhaps call Kate and Gerry using the Portuguese phone, but it wasn’t a kind of religious oh we’ll just use the, that Portuguese phone to err you know establish communication.” 1485 ”Yeah.” Reply ”Err you know and the other reason that we, we had the, one of the phones is because Fiona didn’t have a phone either so you know, so it’s like she had the use of the other phone as well.” 1485 ”Right, so out of the two of you then, who predominantly used that phone?” Reply ”I’d say Fiona.” 1485 ”Fiona?” Reply ”Yeah.” 1485 ”And has it been used since it’s been in the UK?” Reply ”No.” 1485 ”Okay, okay.” Reply ”And I’m just trying to think you know how much, you know the, the, I can’t remember you know obviously we were there for four weeks after but when the actual credit ran out, because I remember the credit running out and not being able to actually put anymore on even though it’s supposed to be quite straight forward but again, you know whether that was after, you know, three weeks of being out there or whatever I can’t remember.” 1485 ”Yeah, how many times do you think you topped it up then?” Reply ”I don’t, I don’t think we did, I don’t think I did. I don’t think I could work out how to do it to be honest.” 1485 ”So when both of them arrived both of them had credit on them?” Reply ”They put, I think they put, I think err I think they put forty pound credit or forty euros, you know, which seemed to last a lot longer than the amount of credit we were (inaudible) we were using our own err mobile phones.” 1485 ”Just wait there a second I’ll just (inaudible).” Reply ”Okay.” DC MESSIAH leaves the interview room. DC MESSIAH re-enters the interview room. 1485 ”All done.” Reply ”Okay.” 1485 ”The phone, is it likely that I could collect it when I take you home?” Reply ”I can certainly have a look for it and I can give you, I mean if you, if you wanted to have my other mobile phone with all the numbers in and you know if you can access text messages on that you’re welcome to have that phone.” 1485 ”Okay, do you know where you’d be able to put your hand on it if you…” Reply ”Err the Samsung one, again, there was a Vodaphone bag that was knocking around, and that would be where it is if err I can find it. Fiona might know.” 1485 ”Okay, perhaps you could give her a call or something.” Reply ”Yeah, yeah.” 1485 ”Alright then, it’s now sixteen forty on this date.” The interview ceased at 1640 hours when the tape recorder was switched off.
Thanks for bringing us that transcript Redblossom
It's astonishing ... half way through David Payne 'changes his mind' about the second phone and says that what he had said just moments before was 'rubbish' ! ... he suddenly recalls that he didn't give it to Kate and Gerry at all, but that he has a 'sneaky feeling' he has it at home somewhere in a vodaphone bag that was 'knocking around'
Quite astonishing
Why? Don't you ever mis-remember something, and as soon as you've said it - something else comes back into your mind and you realise your first memory was wrong - and so you correct yourself? It's a perfectly normal and natural thing for people to do.
Title: Re: Scotland Yard are examining phone traffic in PDL on May 3 2007
Post by: icabodcrane on May 29, 2013, 12:11:41 AM
1485 ”Who lent you these phones that Simon ALDRIDGE had organised for you?” Reply ”Err I mean, Si, Simon’s brother err is a gentleman called Nick and Nick’s wife Nicky had got friends out in the Algarve and they were just you know basic people who were just willing to help us in whatever capacity it was, whether we wanted a room for the night or anything and they asked is there anything we can do, err whether they could do, and err and that was, you know, that was one thing we said well actually you know err Kate’s phone’s nearly ran out, we’re sat, we don’t know how long we’re gonna be at the Police Station you know could, you know, can they, you know is there any way of getting phones to us just so that you know, we can, for communication. Err and err so that was, that was a capacity really err of people.” 1485 ”And where were these phones, when did these phones arrive?” Reply ”Err when did we get the phones? When we were at the Police Station, err you know as, you know I just asked whether I could just pop downstairs there was someone who’s brought us phones and they said yeah, so I quickly popped downstairs, got the phones, and took them back into the Police Station. Err I can’t remember if there was any power in them when we opened them up but err so then that was, you know, so the phones were just, you know because we hadn’t got any other, anything there, so.” 1485 ”And what phones were they? Do you remember what sort of, what make they were?” Reply ”Err they were Samsung phones, err and I think they were Vodaphone SIM cards. Err the actual model, I can’t tell you the Samsung phone but they were, something like the Samsung three hundred, something like that.” 1485 ”Yeah, how many phones were there?” Reply ”There was, there was two err and we ended up, err again, we ended up keeping one and Kate and Gerry had one, I think we gave the second one to Kate and Gerry as well after a while but we were err you know because they’d got credit put on to them so we were just using those phones rather than run up the expense of our own phones.” 1485 ”Yeah.” Reply ”So err yeah.” 1485 ”So the two phones, you’ve kept one and gave one to Kate and Gerry?” Reply ”Kate and Gerry yeah.” 1485 ”And do you have the numbers of those phones in your phone?” Reply ”I don’t, no, no.” 1485 ”Where are these phones now?” Reply ”Err as far as I am aware that they, you know, remained in Portugal, again…” 1485 ”With whom?” Reply ”With Kate and Gerry.” 1485 ”So Kate and Gerry took possession of that second phone which you had?” Reply ”Well, they certainly kept the first one, the second one, the second one, sorry, no I think that’s rubbish. I think I, I may well have got the, I might have got the second phone. Actually I’ve got a sneaky feeling when I got home I tried the UK SIM card in it and it didn’t work so I could well have got the second phone.” 1485 ”So is it likely that this second phone is at your home address?” Reply ”Err that is a strong possibility.” 1485 ”So two Samsung phones.” Reply ”Yeah, yeah.” 1485 ”One is, to your knowledge, still with Kate and Gerry.” Reply ”Yeah.” 1485 ”The other one you may well have at your home address.” Reply ”Yeah, yeah.” 1485 ”Did you use the phones often?” Reply ”Not…” 1485 ”In Portugal?” Reply ”Not a great deal no, no, it was, it was, first of all you know we didn’t have any numbers in them already and then with being a Portuguese phone you know it was just a bit more difficult so we, if we ever used them, I mean which wasn’t often, we’d perhaps call Kate and Gerry using the Portuguese phone, but it wasn’t a kind of religious oh we’ll just use the, that Portuguese phone to err you know establish communication.” 1485 ”Yeah.” Reply ”Err you know and the other reason that we, we had the, one of the phones is because Fiona didn’t have a phone either so you know, so it’s like she had the use of the other phone as well.” 1485 ”Right, so out of the two of you then, who predominantly used that phone?” Reply ”I’d say Fiona.” 1485 ”Fiona?” Reply ”Yeah.” 1485 ”And has it been used since it’s been in the UK?” Reply ”No.” 1485 ”Okay, okay.” Reply ”And I’m just trying to think you know how much, you know the, the, I can’t remember you know obviously we were there for four weeks after but when the actual credit ran out, because I remember the credit running out and not being able to actually put anymore on even though it’s supposed to be quite straight forward but again, you know whether that was after, you know, three weeks of being out there or whatever I can’t remember.” 1485 ”Yeah, how many times do you think you topped it up then?” Reply ”I don’t, I don’t think we did, I don’t think I did. I don’t think I could work out how to do it to be honest.” 1485 ”So when both of them arrived both of them had credit on them?” Reply ”They put, I think they put, I think err I think they put forty pound credit or forty euros, you know, which seemed to last a lot longer than the amount of credit we were (inaudible) we were using our own err mobile phones.” 1485 ”Just wait there a second I’ll just (inaudible).” Reply ”Okay.” DC MESSIAH leaves the interview room. DC MESSIAH re-enters the interview room. 1485 ”All done.” Reply ”Okay.” 1485 ”The phone, is it likely that I could collect it when I take you home?” Reply ”I can certainly have a look for it and I can give you, I mean if you, if you wanted to have my other mobile phone with all the numbers in and you know if you can access text messages on that you’re welcome to have that phone.” 1485 ”Okay, do you know where you’d be able to put your hand on it if you…” Reply ”Err the Samsung one, again, there was a Vodaphone bag that was knocking around, and that would be where it is if err I can find it. Fiona might know.” 1485 ”Okay, perhaps you could give her a call or something.” Reply ”Yeah, yeah.” 1485 ”Alright then, it’s now sixteen forty on this date.” The interview ceased at 1640 hours when the tape recorder was switched off.
Thanks for bringing us that transcript Redblossom
It's astonishing ... half way through David Payne 'changes his mind' about the second phone and says that what he had said just moments before was 'rubbish' ! ... he suddenly recalls that he didn't give it to Kate and Gerry at all, but that he has a 'sneaky feeling' he has it at home somewhere in a vodaphone bag that was 'knocking around'
Quite astonishing
Why? Don't you ever mis-remember something, and as soon as you've said it - something else comes back into your mind and you realise your first memory was wrong - and so you correct yourself? It's a perfectly normal and natural thing for people to do.
I don't think there is anything 'natural' about that transcript of conversation, and I would hazard a guess that DC Messiah felt the same way ... see how he left the the room at that point ? ... and then came back, asking if he could pick the phone up when he took Payne home ?
Title: Re: Scotland Yard are examining phone traffic in PDL on May 3 2007
Post by: Benice on May 29, 2013, 12:21:54 AM
1485 ”Who lent you these phones that Simon ALDRIDGE had organised for you?” Reply ”Err I mean, Si, Simon’s brother err is a gentleman called Nick and Nick’s wife Nicky had got friends out in the Algarve and they were just you know basic people who were just willing to help us in whatever capacity it was, whether we wanted a room for the night or anything and they asked is there anything we can do, err whether they could do, and err and that was, you know, that was one thing we said well actually you know err Kate’s phone’s nearly ran out, we’re sat, we don’t know how long we’re gonna be at the Police Station you know could, you know, can they, you know is there any way of getting phones to us just so that you know, we can, for communication. Err and err so that was, that was a capacity really err of people.” 1485 ”And where were these phones, when did these phones arrive?” Reply ”Err when did we get the phones? When we were at the Police Station, err you know as, you know I just asked whether I could just pop downstairs there was someone who’s brought us phones and they said yeah, so I quickly popped downstairs, got the phones, and took them back into the Police Station. Err I can’t remember if there was any power in them when we opened them up but err so then that was, you know, so the phones were just, you know because we hadn’t got any other, anything there, so.” 1485 ”And what phones were they? Do you remember what sort of, what make they were?” Reply ”Err they were Samsung phones, err and I think they were Vodaphone SIM cards. Err the actual model, I can’t tell you the Samsung phone but they were, something like the Samsung three hundred, something like that.” 1485 ”Yeah, how many phones were there?” Reply ”There was, there was two err and we ended up, err again, we ended up keeping one and Kate and Gerry had one, I think we gave the second one to Kate and Gerry as well after a while but we were err you know because they’d got credit put on to them so we were just using those phones rather than run up the expense of our own phones.” 1485 ”Yeah.” Reply ”So err yeah.” 1485 ”So the two phones, you’ve kept one and gave one to Kate and Gerry?” Reply ”Kate and Gerry yeah.” 1485 ”And do you have the numbers of those phones in your phone?” Reply ”I don’t, no, no.” 1485 ”Where are these phones now?” Reply ”Err as far as I am aware that they, you know, remained in Portugal, again…” 1485 ”With whom?” Reply ”With Kate and Gerry.” 1485 ”So Kate and Gerry took possession of that second phone which you had?” Reply ”Well, they certainly kept the first one, the second one, the second one, sorry, no I think that’s rubbish. I think I, I may well have got the, I might have got the second phone. Actually I’ve got a sneaky feeling when I got home I tried the UK SIM card in it and it didn’t work so I could well have got the second phone.” 1485 ”So is it likely that this second phone is at your home address?” Reply ”Err that is a strong possibility.” 1485 ”So two Samsung phones.” Reply ”Yeah, yeah.” 1485 ”One is, to your knowledge, still with Kate and Gerry.” Reply ”Yeah.” 1485 ”The other one you may well have at your home address.” Reply ”Yeah, yeah.” 1485 ”Did you use the phones often?” Reply ”Not…” 1485 ”In Portugal?” Reply ”Not a great deal no, no, it was, it was, first of all you know we didn’t have any numbers in them already and then with being a Portuguese phone you know it was just a bit more difficult so we, if we ever used them, I mean which wasn’t often, we’d perhaps call Kate and Gerry using the Portuguese phone, but it wasn’t a kind of religious oh we’ll just use the, that Portuguese phone to err you know establish communication.” 1485 ”Yeah.” Reply ”Err you know and the other reason that we, we had the, one of the phones is because Fiona didn’t have a phone either so you know, so it’s like she had the use of the other phone as well.” 1485 ”Right, so out of the two of you then, who predominantly used that phone?” Reply ”I’d say Fiona.” 1485 ”Fiona?” Reply ”Yeah.” 1485 ”And has it been used since it’s been in the UK?” Reply ”No.” 1485 ”Okay, okay.” Reply ”And I’m just trying to think you know how much, you know the, the, I can’t remember you know obviously we were there for four weeks after but when the actual credit ran out, because I remember the credit running out and not being able to actually put anymore on even though it’s supposed to be quite straight forward but again, you know whether that was after, you know, three weeks of being out there or whatever I can’t remember.” 1485 ”Yeah, how many times do you think you topped it up then?” Reply ”I don’t, I don’t think we did, I don’t think I did. I don’t think I could work out how to do it to be honest.” 1485 ”So when both of them arrived both of them had credit on them?” Reply ”They put, I think they put, I think err I think they put forty pound credit or forty euros, you know, which seemed to last a lot longer than the amount of credit we were (inaudible) we were using our own err mobile phones.” 1485 ”Just wait there a second I’ll just (inaudible).” Reply ”Okay.” DC MESSIAH leaves the interview room. DC MESSIAH re-enters the interview room. 1485 ”All done.” Reply ”Okay.” 1485 ”The phone, is it likely that I could collect it when I take you home?” Reply ”I can certainly have a look for it and I can give you, I mean if you, if you wanted to have my other mobile phone with all the numbers in and you know if you can access text messages on that you’re welcome to have that phone.” 1485 ”Okay, do you know where you’d be able to put your hand on it if you…” Reply ”Err the Samsung one, again, there was a Vodaphone bag that was knocking around, and that would be where it is if err I can find it. Fiona might know.” 1485 ”Okay, perhaps you could give her a call or something.” Reply ”Yeah, yeah.” 1485 ”Alright then, it’s now sixteen forty on this date.” The interview ceased at 1640 hours when the tape recorder was switched off.
Thanks for bringing us that transcript Redblossom
It's astonishing ... half way through David Payne 'changes his mind' about the second phone and says that what he had said just moments before was 'rubbish' ! ... he suddenly recalls that he didn't give it to Kate and Gerry at all, but that he has a 'sneaky feeling' he has it at home somewhere in a vodaphone bag that was 'knocking around'
Quite astonishing
Why? Don't you ever mis-remember something, and as soon as you've said it - something else comes back into your mind and you realise your first memory was wrong - and so you correct yourself? It's a perfectly normal and natural thing for people to do.
I don't think there is anything 'natural' about that transcript of conversation, and I would hazard a guess that DC Messiah felt the same way ... see how he left the the room at that point ? ... and then came back, asking if he could pick the phone up when he took Payne home ?
You're reading the written version of a spoken conversation 'word for word' complete with all the umms and errrs. They never do appear normal, but if you were sitting there listening to the conversation - or was part of it - then you wouldn't think there was anything unnatural about it at all. As nothing David Payne said was in any way sinister, and he immediately corrected himself then obviously he was not trying to hide anything.
.
Title: Re: Scotland Yard are examining phone traffic in PDL on May 3 2007
Post by: icabodcrane on May 29, 2013, 12:30:05 AM
It's astonishing ... half way through David Payne 'changes his mind' about the second phone and says that what he had said just moments before was 'rubbish' ! ... he suddenly recalls that he didn't give it to Kate and Gerry at all, but that he has a 'sneaky feeling' he has it at home somewhere in a vodaphone bag that was 'knocking around'
Quite astonishing
Why? Don't you ever mis-remember something, and as soon as you've said it - something else comes back into your mind and you realise your first memory was wrong - and so you correct yourself? It's a perfectly normal and natural thing for people to do.
I don't think there is anything 'natural' about that transcript of conversation, and I would hazard a guess that DC Messiah felt the same way ... see how he left the the room at that point ? ... and then came back, asking if he could pick the phone up when he took Payne home ?
You're reading the written version of a spoken conversation 'word for word' complete with all the umms and errrs. They never do appear normal, but if you were sitting there listening to the conversation - or was part of it - then you wouldn't think there was anything unnatural about it at all. As nothing David Payne said was in any way sinister, and he immediately corrected himself then obviously he was not trying to hide anything.
.
You could be right Benice, and it might just be the 'written' as opposed to 'spoken' word that seems unatural
I'm still not sure about this 'Bat-phone' thing though ... the explanation for needing pay as you go, throw away phones, rather than re-charging their own mobiles seems a bit flimsy to me
Title: Re: Scotland Yard are examining phone traffic in PDL on May 3 2007
Post by: Benice on May 29, 2013, 12:47:26 AM
It's astonishing ... half way through David Payne 'changes his mind' about the second phone and says that what he had said just moments before was 'rubbish' ! ... he suddenly recalls that he didn't give it to Kate and Gerry at all, but that he has a 'sneaky feeling' he has it at home somewhere in a vodaphone bag that was 'knocking around'
Quite astonishing
Why? Don't you ever mis-remember something, and as soon as you've said it - something else comes back into your mind and you realise your first memory was wrong - and so you correct yourself? It's a perfectly normal and natural thing for people to do.
I don't think there is anything 'natural' about that transcript of conversation, and I would hazard a guess that DC Messiah felt the same way ... see how he left the the room at that point ? ... and then came back, asking if he could pick the phone up when he took Payne home ?
You're reading the written version of a spoken conversation 'word for word' complete with all the umms and errrs. They never do appear normal, but if you were sitting there listening to the conversation - or was part of it - then you wouldn't think there was anything unnatural about it at all. As nothing David Payne said was in any way sinister, and he immediately corrected himself then obviously he was not trying to hide anything.
.
You could be right Benice, and it might just be the 'written' as opposed to 'spoken' word that seems unatural
I'm still not sure about this 'Bat-phone' thing though ... the explanation for needing pay as you go, throw away phones, rather than re-charging their own mobiles seems a bit flimsy to me
I know very little about mobile phones Icabodcrane - but I got the impression that they were worried at some stage that they were in danger of losing their only means of communication - and a friend came to their rescue.
Title: Re: Scotland Yard are examining phone traffic in PDL on May 3 2007
Post by: debunker on May 29, 2013, 06:39:15 AM
I travel regularly to the US and to the Canary Islands. I usually buy throw away pay as you go phones when I go as it is the cheapest way of using phones abroad, even when you factor in the cost of the phone itself as a disposable. Otherwise you can pay 50p a minute for every call! I buy them in supermarkets or phone shops for about $30 or 4o Euros and use them kust once (it is not worth the hassle to re-register them next vacation!)
Title: Re: Scotland Yard are examining phone traffic in PDL on May 3 2007
Post by: Carana on May 29, 2013, 07:10:08 AM
You could be right Benice, and it might just be the 'written' as opposed to 'spoken' word that seems unatural
I'm still not sure about this 'Bat-phone' thing though ... the explanation for needing pay as you go, throw away phones, rather than re-charging their own mobiles seems a bit flimsy to me
The immediate problem may have been flat batteries, but then there would have been the roaming issue.
Roaming charges are still expensive today, and may well have been even more expensive back then. You don't just pay for outgoing calls / messages but also for incoming ones. And you pay for notifications of voicemail, plus the time you spend listening to it.
A cheap alternative is to get local phones with pre-paid credit that you top up. You can get cheap deals whereby you pay next to nothing for the phone, but you're obliged to use the local operator's SIM card for two years or so. That would explain why the phone wouldn't work when David trying using a UK SIM card back home.
If the Paynes and Kate had simply charged the batteries on their UK phones, they would have both been paying a fortune to call each other even though they were both in the same country.
Title: Re: Scotland Yard are examining phone traffic in PDL on May 3 2007
Post by: Mrs. B on May 29, 2013, 08:07:02 AM
I travel regularly to the US and to the Canary Islands. I usually buy throw away pay as you go phones when I go as it is the cheapest way of using phones abroad, even when you factor in the cost of the phone itself as a disposable. Otherwise you can pay 50p a minute for every call! I buy them in supermarkets or phone shops for about $30 or 4o Euros and use them kust once (it is not worth the hassle to re-register them next vacation!)
Absolutely, we do exactly the same. As soon as we arrive anywhere where we are due to stay any length of time, one mobile always get fitted with a local pay as you go. We only keep the ones we use in countries we travel frequently to. You save an awful lot of money that way.
Title: Re: Scotland Yard are examining phone traffic in PDL on May 3 2007
Post by: debunker on May 29, 2013, 10:03:21 AM
I travel regularly to the US and to the Canary Islands. I usually buy throw away pay as you go phones when I go as it is the cheapest way of using phones abroad, even when you factor in the cost of the phone itself as a disposable. Otherwise you can pay 50p a minute for every call! I buy them in supermarkets or phone shops for about $30 or 4o Euros and use them kust once (it is not worth the hassle to re-register them next vacation!)
Absolutely, we do exactly the same. As soon as we arrive anywhere where we are due to stay any length of time, one mobile always get fitted with a local pay as you go. We only keep the ones we use in countries we travel frequently to. You save an awful lot of money that way.
US phones no longer use sim cards unfortunately!
Title: Re: Scotland Yard are examining phone traffic in PDL on May 3 2007
Post by: Mrs. B on May 29, 2013, 10:11:51 AM
I travel regularly to the US and to the Canary Islands. I usually buy throw away pay as you go phones when I go as it is the cheapest way of using phones abroad, even when you factor in the cost of the phone itself as a disposable. Otherwise you can pay 50p a minute for every call! I buy them in supermarkets or phone shops for about $30 or 4o Euros and use them kust once (it is not worth the hassle to re-register them next vacation!)
Absolutely, we do exactly the same. As soon as we arrive anywhere where we are due to stay any length of time, one mobile always get fitted with a local pay as you go. We only keep the ones we use in countries we travel frequently to. You save an awful lot of money that way.
US phones no longer use sim cards unfortunately!
Ah, haven't been for ages so I wouldn't know.
Title: Re: Scotland Yard are examining phone traffic in PDL on May 3 2007
Post by: debunker on May 29, 2013, 10:30:39 AM
I travel regularly to the US and to the Canary Islands. I usually buy throw away pay as you go phones when I go as it is the cheapest way of using phones abroad, even when you factor in the cost of the phone itself as a disposable. Otherwise you can pay 50p a minute for every call! I buy them in supermarkets or phone shops for about $30 or 4o Euros and use them kust once (it is not worth the hassle to re-register them next vacation!)
Absolutely, we do exactly the same. As soon as we arrive anywhere where we are due to stay any length of time, one mobile always get fitted with a local pay as you go. We only keep the ones we use in countries we travel frequently to. You save an awful lot of money that way.
US phones no longer use sim cards unfortunately!
Ah, haven't been for ages so I wouldn't know.
I go again in a month- three days in NY for Independence Day and then two weeks on the beach in my home town.
Title: Re: Scotland Yard are examining phone traffic in PDL on May 3 2007
Post by: registrar on May 29, 2013, 10:53:33 AM
I travel regularly to the US and to the Canary Islands. I usually buy throw away pay as you go phones when I go as it is the cheapest way of using phones abroad, even when you factor in the cost of the phone itself as a disposable. Otherwise you can pay 50p a minute for every call! I buy them in supermarkets or phone shops for about $30 or 4o Euros and use them kust once (it is not worth the hassle to re-register them next vacation!)
Absolutely, we do exactly the same. As soon as we arrive anywhere where we are due to stay any length of time, one mobile always get fitted with a local pay as you go. We only keep the ones we use in countries we travel frequently to. You save an awful lot of money that way.
US phones no longer use sim cards unfortunately!
Ah, haven't been for ages so I wouldn't know.
I go again in a month- three days in NY for Independence Day and then two weeks on the beach in my home town.
glad to hear about your travel plans
but could you kindly delete your avi
of child killer Mary Bell?
It has no place on a forum like this
unless you get off on it
Title: Re: Scotland Yard are examining phone traffic in PDL on May 3 2007
Post by: sadie on May 29, 2013, 11:16:12 AM
Registrar!!
Behave yourself
Title: Re: Scotland Yard are examining phone traffic in PDL on May 3 2007
Post by: debunker on May 29, 2013, 11:18:15 AM
I travel regularly to the US and to the Canary Islands. I usually buy throw away pay as you go phones when I go as it is the cheapest way of using phones abroad, even when you factor in the cost of the phone itself as a disposable. Otherwise you can pay 50p a minute for every call! I buy them in supermarkets or phone shops for about $30 or 4o Euros and use them kust once (it is not worth the hassle to re-register them next vacation!)
Absolutely, we do exactly the same. As soon as we arrive anywhere where we are due to stay any length of time, one mobile always get fitted with a local pay as you go. We only keep the ones we use in countries we travel frequently to. You save an awful lot of money that way.
US phones no longer use sim cards unfortunately!
Ah, haven't been for ages so I wouldn't know.
I go again in a month- three days in NY for Independence Day and then two weeks on the beach in my home town.
glad to hear about your travel plans
but could you kindly delete your avi
of child killer Mary Bell?
It has no place on a forum like this
unless you get off on it
Mary Bell is an example of how good rehabilitation and faith in humanity leads to redemption. She brought up her daughter under great pressures and is now a grandmother herself.
A victory for sensible justice.
If that offends you, tough.
Title: Re: Scotland Yard are examining phone traffic in PDL on May 3 2007
Post by: Heriberto Janosch on May 29, 2013, 12:43:45 PM
There is a lot of calls to follow, not only those which were made by Tapas9, Murat, Malinka, etc.
A simple telephone number which may appear in a list could have the key to solve the case.
For example I found these two public phones near the Drugstore (Farmacia) which were not investigated:
Quote
AM recalled seeing someone similar telephoning from the public phone booth in front of the Dolphin restaurant. LM immediately said she recognized it as corresponding to an individual she saw 3 or 4 times telephoning in the booth and once walking in the street near the restaurant. Asked, she said he was always dressed in white trousers, a little dirty already, and a dark winter coat. He was always on foot and alone when she saw him. Asked further, she said she saw him during the past week, not recalling on which days, but guarantees not having seen him since the date of the abduction of Madeleine.
The number in the phone booth was 282 789 210. In the surrounding area, specifically Rua Helena do Nascimento Batista, another booth was located by the police, it having the number 282 789 111.
That was just in this street where the witness LP saw the same man, near the pharmacy. The police presented to LP a signage and wardrobe figures, and he confirmed that two weeks ago the individual, whom he knows nothing more about, was seen on a few occasions in the Praia da Luz zone.
He states that it was an individual who appeared to be about 35/40 years of age, skinny, around 1.70 meters in height, and wearing dark clothing (jean top and jeans). He had dark, straight hair, rather untidy which trailed down to his neck but could not be considered long. The face is described as having a rustic appearance, dark-skinned and seemingly sun-tanned and he had dark eyes whose exact color he cannot define.
He states that he saw this individual on more than one occasion on the road that gives access to Praia da Luz, and also next to the pharmacy located on Helena do Nascimento Baptista street in Praia da Luz. At each sighting, the referred individual was on foot, alone and did not appear to have a vehicle with him. This was not a person who looked like the people usual inhabitants of Praia da Luz.
I located the two public phones booths and made calls from them to confirm the numbers. In addition, I located another public phone behind the phone with number 282 789 111. I confirmed its number: 282 789 112.
Reading the PJ files I found the calls made from the 282 789 210, from April 30th. 2007 to May 3rd. 2007, but was unable to find any calls for the 282 789 111 and the 282 789 112.
If the suspect was seen in the zone for at least one week before Madeleine abduction, the request to the phone company should have been not only for one public phone calls and not only from April 30th to May 3rd, 2007.
It will be most interesting trying to locate the calls made from the three numbers from April 16th. 2007 to May 3rd. 2007.
LM and her husband AM recognized DF's e-fit as the suspect (main file pages 301-303). But in November 2007, after being showed to them all the e-fits in the files, they did not recognize the suspect (main file pages 3150-3157). It is possibly due to effects on memory of the elapsed time between May and November. And this is why I consider the first LM and AM statements of May to be more accurate than those of November.
Some people think that this suspect was identified by the Polícia Judiciária. This is not true. The PJ only considered the call from the 282 789 210 to 214 684 141 to be suspicious (main file pages 3599a, 4362 and 4363). This call was made by a woman ("a empregada" = "the female employee").
Some pics from the Farmacia area I had not been published yet.
Title: Re: Scotland Yard are examining phone traffic in PDL on May 3 2007
Post by: Heriberto Janosch on May 29, 2013, 12:45:43 PM
And this is from the well-known public booth at the Dolphin restaurant ...
Title: Re: Scotland Yard are examining phone traffic in PDL on May 3 2007
Post by: Heriberto Janosch on May 29, 2013, 01:02:19 PM
And a draft ...
Title: Re: Scotland Yard are examining phone traffic in PDL on May 3 2007
Post by: sadie on May 29, 2013, 03:02:52 PM
8@??)(
Well done Heri
Title: Re: Scotland Yard are examining phone traffic in PDL on May 3 2007
Post by: John on July 14, 2015, 07:42:40 PM
5) Heriberto has just had a request to access the Luz area phone data turned (by Portuguese authorities, not SY). SY is sitting on the key piece of information required to progress the case. I simply do not have the confidence that they know how to interpret it, given point 4.
Not sure what you mean here ShiningInLuz. Has Heri had his request returned/denied?
Mobile phone pings, call data and mast locations is a subject which I would like to hear more about but it always appears somewhat complicated to the casual reader.
Title: Re: Scotland Yard are examining phone traffic in PDL on May 3 2007
Post by: ShiningInLuz on July 14, 2015, 07:49:04 PM
Mobile phone pings, call data and mast locations is a subject which I would like to hear more about but it always appears somewhat complicated to the casual reader.
Let me see if I can explain this so a casual reader can understand (which is actually quite important to me).
Mobile phone traffic splits into control traffic and message traffic. Message traffic is when you make or receive a call, get or send a text. It's about why you have a mobile, which is to communicate with other people.
Control traffic is what the telephone system uses in order to work. For example, you fly out from Gatwick, or the Midlands, or wherever. You get told to switch your phone off, so you switch your phone off. The system last placed you at Gatwick (or whatever).
You step out of the plane at Faro and turn your phone on again. Between your mobile and the nearest mast, the system works out from control traffic that your phone, which was in Gatwick, is now in Faro.
It does this whether you have any messages or not. It simply requires that your phone is turned on i.e. communicating with the system.
Unfortunately, this crucial information, the control traffic, does not appear to have entered the files. It is a pity, because it would give so much more information. (I have no reason to believe mobile phone firms kept control traffic info in 2007. I cannot see why they would.)
Assuming this lot is correct, we take a big step forward. We leave behind any ideas about using control traffic, and we focus on message traffic. This focus immediately brings up two ideas. Number 1. To get or send messages, your phone has to be switched on. (Would it be on in 2007 while you were burgling or abducting?) Number 2. If your phone is on, and messages flow, your location can be tracked.
Summary so far. A phone that was sending or receiving messages could be tracked. Question. Just how tracked could that phone be?
Title: Re: Scotland Yard are examining phone traffic in PDL on May 3 2007
Post by: Mr Gray on July 15, 2015, 08:17:45 AM
Let me see if I can explain this so a casual reader can understand (which is actually quite important to me).
Mobile phone traffic splits into control traffic and message traffic. Message traffic is when you make or receive a call, get or send a text. It's about why you have a mobile, which is to communicate with other people.
Control traffic is what the telephone system uses in order to work. For example, you fly out from Gatwick, or the Midlands, or wherever. You get told to switch your phone off, so you switch your phone off. The system last placed you at Gatwick (or whatever).
You step out of the plane at Faro and turn your phone on again. Between your mobile and the nearest mast, the system works out from control traffic that your phone, which was in Gatwick, is now in Faro.
It does this whether you have any messages or not. It simply requires that your phone is turned on i.e. communicating with the system.
Unfortunately, this crucial information, the control traffic, does not appear to have entered the files. It is a pity, because it would give so much more information. (I have no reason to believe mobile phone firms kept control traffic info in 2007. I cannot see why they would.)
Assuming this lot is correct, we take a big step forward. We leave behind any ideas about using control traffic, and we focus on message traffic. This focus immediately brings up two ideas. Number 1. To get or send messages, your phone has to be switched on. (Would it be on in 2007 while you were burgling or abducting?) Number 2. If your phone is on, and messages flow, your location can be tracked.
Summary so far. A phone that was sending or receiving messages could be tracked. Question. Just how tracked could that phone be?
Would you think the PJ and SY would have looked at the McCanns phone traffic
Title: Re: Scotland Yard are examining phone traffic in PDL on May 3 2007
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 15, 2015, 10:58:12 AM
Would you think the PJ and SY would have looked at the McCanns phone traffic
Deleting phone calls in their mobile history is a big waving red flag to the police.
Let your mate explain :
On May 4th, the parents authorise us to check the phone calls logged on their mobile.
- Here's a copy of the summary of calls.
- I only have that of the couple. We have yet to receive the summary from BTS
- OK, what have we got?
- Do you see what I see?
- Yes, I think so: between April 27th and May 4th, Kate did not make any calls. Hum...
- None either, between 11.22am and 11.17pm on the night of the disappearance.
- Kate mustn't like making telephone calls...
- For Gerald, there's nothing before May 4th at exactly 12.15am
- What does that mean? They never made phone calls then?
- Wait, there's something here. Look at the number at the top of the list.
- Yes, so?
- On her telephone, her husbands' number is logged: she called him on May 3rd at 11.17pm, but on Gerald's, nothing, no trace of that call!
- How can that be explained?
- It's simple as anything: the list of calls has been deleted.
- Always the same old question: why?
(TOTL)
Title: Re: Scotland Yard are examining phone traffic in PDL on May 3 2007
Post by: ShiningInLuz on July 15, 2015, 05:00:27 PM
The PJ looked at the Tapas 9 phone data over an extended time. That was what I was using to gain some simple information about the phone masts, before Heriberto helped with a better approach.
The T9 stuff contains 'ordinary' data - calls in Luz, calls in Lagos, trips to Portimão to make statements or get updates from the PJ, trips to Faro for airport or shopping, trips west of Luz, and the special trips we know of (Fatima, Lisbon, think it covers Huelva but I can't remember).
Whether SY looked at the T9 data again - I simply have no idea.
The time spread of the data they have and the geographical spread of the phone calls will determine whether they can squeeze useful info out of the call data, or not.
Title: Re: Scotland Yard are examining phone traffic in PDL on May 3 2007
Post by: Gadfly1.3 on April 13, 2016, 08:34:53 PM
Two questions for the learned scholars among you:
1) Did Kate & Gerry ever explain why they deleted information on their phones? 2) Was the content of any text messages ever revealed?
Could go a way towards exonerating them.
Worty a read: http://portugalresident.com/text-messages-and-calls-“can-now-be-submitted-in-court-as-evidence”
Title: Re: Scotland Yard are examining phone traffic in PDL on May 3 2007
Post by: Mr Gray on April 13, 2016, 08:41:45 PM
(snip) ...The T9 stuff contains 'ordinary' data - calls in Luz, calls in Lagos, trips to Portimão to make statements or get updates from the PJ, trips to Faro for airport or shopping, trips west of Luz, and the special trips we know of (Fatima, Lisbon, think it covers Huelva but I can't remember) ... (snip)
... one T9 mobile also had calls with M Beckett, T Blair, G Brown, and D Miliband.
Title: Re: Scotland Yard are examining phone traffic in PDL on May 3 2007
Post by: Carana on April 13, 2016, 09:08:50 PM
1) Did Kate & Gerry ever explain why they deleted information on their phones? 2) Was the content of any text messages ever revealed?
Could go a way towards exonerating them.
Worty a read: http://portugalresident.com/text-messages-and-calls-“can-now-be-submitted-in-court-as-evidence”
There's a least one thread on that somewhere on here.
Title: Re: Scotland Yard are examining phone traffic in PDL on May 3 2007
Post by: pegasus on April 13, 2016, 09:20:38 PM
Lisbon Jan 2010, first day of court hearing "Jose Magalhaes e Menezes also revealed that text messages sent by Kate and Gerry McCann were intercepted by police who were suspicious about their role in their daughter's disappearance. But the texts were not considered as part of the investigation because a judge would not allow it." http://www.mccannfiles.com/id296.html
Title: Re: Scotland Yard are examining phone traffic in PDL on May 3 2007
Post by: Carana on April 13, 2016, 10:00:56 PM
Title: 3A Kazlux Meeting with GOncalo AMaral & Sofia Leal
Q: Did the content of the 14 text messages have any relevance to the case? A: No. But what IS relevant is that they deleted calls from their mobile phones. http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1267.msg242411#msg242411
Title: Re: Scotland Yard are examining phone traffic in PDL on May 3 2007
Post by: mercury on April 13, 2016, 10:07:21 PM
The tapped texts were not the 14 deleted ones on the night but interceptions that took place later on but were disallowed by the evora court iirc to be part of the evidence...I forget the exact reason
Title: Re: Scotland Yard are examining phone traffic in PDL on May 3 2007
Post by: pegasus on April 13, 2016, 10:07:49 PM
The original investigation did get some phone stuff wrong. For example they failed to understand the Swansea thing which really is elementary to solve. Maybe they also misunderstood the so-called deletions, and they really mean nothing.
Title: Re: Scotland Yard are examining phone traffic in PDL on May 3 2007
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 14, 2016, 12:33:03 AM
What were these then if they were nothing? Pamela Fenn reported crying from 22:30 that night.
Tue 1 May 2007
Kate McCanns mobile was next activated six times, in rapid fire, between 22.16 and 22.27
Title: Re: Scotland Yard are examining phone traffic in PDL on May 3 2007
Post by: pegasus on April 14, 2016, 02:36:02 AM
For those who have a command of analysing phone data ... some of whom have given concise guidance on this thread ... this must all seem to be about reinventing the wheel yet again.
The phone traffic which is of interest to the present investigation would appear to be among criminals who were in the area at the time and who were in communication with each other.
Title: Re: Scotland Yard are examining phone traffic in PDL on May 3 2007
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 14, 2016, 12:15:36 PM
For those who have a command of analysing phone data ... some of whom have given concise guidance on this thread ... this must all seem to be about reinventing the wheel yet again.
The phone traffic which is of interest to the present investigation would appear to be among criminals who were in the area at the time and who were in communication with each other.
Tue was a much easler night for any abduction with no checks done for 75 minutes. They seemed to be checking more often on the night she disappeared. They were all arriving passing the apartment from 8:30 to 9 so that gives less than an hour for her to go missing while many checks were happening.
Title: Re: Scotland Yard are examining phone traffic in PDL on May 3 2007
Post by: Brietta on April 14, 2016, 12:20:09 PM
You don't know that they aren't examining tapas 9 phone traffic. Detectives will be examining all relevant phone traffic.
Indeed, have SY told us whose records they are examining ? If so, I must have missed that little detail.
Title: Re: Scotland Yard are examining phone traffic in PDL on May 3 2007
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 14, 2016, 12:45:20 PM
Presumably these criminals were serious dudes and not some nutters high as kites recording happy slappy selfie stuff for posterity? It does happen and they usually get caught pdq cos they use contract phones. Given they were actual serious dudes and were going to kidnap someone they would know enough to use non contract PAYG, aka "burner phones". So tracing them would be impossible unless they were stupid enough to top up using a kosher credit card.
Title: Re: Scotland Yard are examining phone traffic in PDL on May 3 2007
Post by: jassi on April 14, 2016, 01:06:28 PM
Presumably these criminals were serious dudes and not some nutters high as kites recording happy slappy selfie stuff for posterity? It does happen and they usually get caught pdq cos they use contract phones. Given they were actual serious dudes and were going to kidnap someone they would know enough to use non contract PAYG, aka "burner phones". So tracing them would be impossible unless they were stupid enough to top up using a kosher credit card.
If they were serious dudes, it would be a stolen card anyway.
Title: Re: Scotland Yard are examining phone traffic in PDL on May 3 2007
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 14, 2016, 01:20:54 PM
Presumably these criminals were serious dudes and not some nutters high as kites recording happy slappy selfie stuff for posterity? It does happen and they usually get caught pdq cos they use contract phones. Given they were actual serious dudes and were going to kidnap someone they would know enough to use non contract PAYG, aka "burner phones". So tracing them would be impossible unless they were stupid enough to top up using a kosher credit card.
Two new PAYG Samsung mobiles were received on 4 May 2007.
1485 "And what phones were they' Do you remember what sort of, what make they were'' Reply "Err they were Samsung phones, err and I think they were Vodaphone SIM cards. Err the actual model, I can't tell you the Samsung phone but they were, something like the Samsung three hundred, something like that.' 1485 "Yeah, how many phones were there'' Reply "There was, there was two err and we ended up, err again, we ended up keeping one and Kate and Gerry had one, I think we gave the second one to Kate and Gerry as well after a while but we were err you know because they'd got credit put on to them so we were just using those phones rather than run up the expense of our own phones.'
You don't know that they aren't examining tapas 9 phone traffic. Detectives will be examining all relevant phone traffic.
That will be why the original investigators ignored the examinations carried out on the phones of the tapas nine and when looking for cause to make the McCann's arguidos opted instead for 'Kate's dream' and the alerts of dogs which the handler had told them had to be checked out by forensics before anything could be made of them.
The PJ at the time checked the McCann phone traffic ... no doubt Scotland Yard and the Policia Judiciaria did too ... but casting the net just a little bit wider, led to both law enforcement agencies taking a closer look at other phone traffic entirely.
Title: Re: Scotland Yard are examining phone traffic in PDL on May 3 2007
Post by: Brietta on April 14, 2016, 03:44:04 PM
Two new PAYG Samsung mobiles were received on 4 May 2007.
1485 "And what phones were they' Do you remember what sort of, what make they were'' Reply "Err they were Samsung phones, err and I think they were Vodaphone SIM cards. Err the actual model, I can't tell you the Samsung phone but they were, something like the Samsung three hundred, something like that.' 1485 "Yeah, how many phones were there'' Reply "There was, there was two err and we ended up, err again, we ended up keeping one and Kate and Gerry had one, I think we gave the second one to Kate and Gerry as well after a while but we were err you know because they'd got credit put on to them so we were just using those phones rather than run up the expense of our own phones.'
Delivered to them in the police station I believe.
Exactly what do you think is remarkable or suspicious about Dr Payne's rogatory statement? How do you suggest they should have communicated if not via local handsets?
Title: Re: Scotland Yard are examining phone traffic in PDL on May 3 2007
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 14, 2016, 04:02:08 PM
The police wanted the phones Brietta. Why don't you ask them why?
1485 "The phone, is it likely that I could collect it when I take you home''
Reply "I can certainly have a look for it and I can give you, I mean if you, if you wanted to have my other mobile phone with all the numbers in and you know if you can access text messages on that you're welcome to have that phone.'
1485 "Okay, do you know where you'd be able to put your hand on it if you''
Reply "Err the Samsung one, again, there was a Vodaphone bag that was knocking around, and that would be where it is if err I can find it. Fiona might know.'
1485 "Okay, perhaps you could give her a call or something.'
Reply "Yeah, yeah.'
1485 "Alright then, it's now sixteen forty on this date.'
01:09:48 The interview ceased at 1640 hours when the tape recorder was switched off. SIGNATURE (Sgd)
The police wanted the phones Brietta. Why don't you ask them why?
1485 "The phone, is it likely that I could collect it when I take you home''
Reply "I can certainly have a look for it and I can give you, I mean if you, if you wanted to have my other mobile phone with all the numbers in and you know if you can access text messages on that you're welcome to have that phone.'
1485 "Okay, do you know where you'd be able to put your hand on it if you''
Reply "Err the Samsung one, again, there was a Vodaphone bag that was knocking around, and that would be where it is if err I can find it. Fiona might know.'
1485 "Okay, perhaps you could give her a call or something.'
Reply "Yeah, yeah.'
1485 "Alright then, it's now sixteen forty on this date.'
01:09:48 The interview ceased at 1640 hours when the tape recorder was switched off. SIGNATURE (Sgd)
I really have no interest in asking the police anything at all about situations done and dusted in 2008.
I am far more interested in the present investigation in which the phone traffic of other individuals who were not known to the McCann party raised one or two professional eyebrows. No point in asking them however ... particularly as the information concerns an active inquiry into what happened to Madeleine McCann.
Poring over her parent's phone records didn't get us anywhere close ... looking at the other phone calls made on that night might just provide the answers we all seek.
When a blank wall was hit in 2007 regarding the parent's phone traffic the next logical investigative progression should have been to look outward as SY and the PJ did when conducting their reviews. Because checking the records wasn't continued in 2007 it resulted in a loss of nearly four years. A tragic state of affairs.
Title: Re: Scotland Yard are examining phone traffic in PDL on May 3 2007
Post by: Eleanor on April 14, 2016, 04:25:34 PM
An awful lot of people didn't understand the ability to track Cell Phones nine years ago. A lot still don't.
Quite a lot of criminals have been caught out by this.
Title: Re: Scotland Yard are examining phone traffic in PDL on May 3 2007
Post by: ferryman on April 14, 2016, 04:31:53 PM
I really have no interest in asking the police anything at all about situations done and dusted in 2008.
I am far more interested in the present investigation in which the phone traffic of other individuals who were not known to the McCann party raised one or two professional eyebrows. No point in asking them however ... particularly as the information concerns an active inquiry into what happened to Madeleine McCann.
Poring over her parent's phone records didn't get us anywhere close ... looking at the other phone calls made on that night might just provide the answers we all seek.
When a blank wall was hit in 2007 regarding the parent's phone traffic the next logical investigative progression should have been to look outward as SY and the PJ did when conducting their reviews. Because checking the records wasn't continued in 2007 it resulted in a loss of nearly four years. A tragic state of affairs.
I seem to recall Lord Justice Tugendhat, in the course of summarising the reasons for his decision in contempt-of-court proceedings against Tony Bennett, commenting on the very thorough analysis of phone traffic carried out by the PJ during the course of the shelved investigation.
The PJ found it all quite blameless.
Title: Re: Scotland Yard are examining phone traffic in PDL on May 3 2007
Post by: jassi on April 14, 2016, 04:38:53 PM
Wasn't it all done by British experts on behalf of the PJ?
Title: Re: Scotland Yard are examining phone traffic in PDL on May 3 2007
Post by: Brietta on April 14, 2016, 04:43:22 PM
Wasn't it all done by British experts on behalf of the PJ?
British experts were sent over to do the technical stuff, Jassie, and were no doubt on standby to assist if required ... but I am certain all the investigative analysis will have been carried out by the PJ.
Title: Re: Scotland Yard are examining phone traffic in PDL on May 3 2007
Post by: Eleanor on April 14, 2016, 04:53:23 PM
British experts were sent over to do the technical stuff, Jassie, and were no doubt on standby to assist if required ... but I am certain all the investigative analysis will have been carried out by the PJ.
I seem to remember some talk about whether or not some of these Cell Phone owners had criminal records. Only The PJ could establish that.
Title: Re: Scotland Yard are examining phone traffic in PDL on May 3 2007
Post by: ShiningInLuz on April 14, 2016, 05:35:56 PM
Does anyone on the forum know if the number of those 2 mobiles was identified?
Title: Re: Scotland Yard are examining phone traffic in PDL on May 3 2007
Post by: Eleanor on April 14, 2016, 05:47:40 PM
An awful lot of people didn't understand the ability to track Cell Phones nine years ago. A lot still don't.
Quite a lot of criminals have been caught out by this.
Because they use contract phones. They deserve to be arrested for being so stupid let alone for being criminals. Tracking cell phones was not exactly cutting edge technology in 2007 and 2007 was at least 5 years after "The Bourne Identity" ?{)(**
Try asking Heri why the trio were pulled in. Question is still does anyone have an idea as to the number of those mobiles?
Reason I am asking is I cannot see them on known phone traffic for 4 May, when they should be there.
You are light years ahead of me on this. But would you know whose number was whose? And wasn't it the 3rd of May?
Sorry, I never question Heri. But you could, if you wish. I am only pretty certain sure that these three men were in PdL on the night of the 3rd of May. Why they were there, is the question. And do they have criminal records?
Title: Re: Scotland Yard are examining phone traffic in PDL on May 3 2007
Post by: Eleanor on April 14, 2016, 06:31:07 PM
Because they use contract phones. They deserve to be arrested for being so stupid let alone for being criminals. Tracking cell phones was not exactly cutting edge technology in 2007 and 2007 was at least 5 years after "The Bourne Identity" ?{)(**
You are light years ahead of me on this. But would you know whose number was whose? And wasn't it the 3rd of May?
Sorry, I never question Heri. But you could, if you wish. I am only pretty certain sure that these three men were in PdL on the night of the 3rd of May. Why they were there, is the question. And do they have criminal records?
Heri thinks 3 PPP are linked by phone calls on 3 May. Im interested in why the 2 mobiles donated on 4 May do not appear.
Title: Re: Scotland Yard are examining phone traffic in PDL on May 3 2007
Post by: Eleanor on April 14, 2016, 08:18:22 PM
Everything. An investigation covers everyone (no one is ruled out!) when it is still unsolved after 9 years.
Stuff and nonsense ...
During the course of a (progressive) enquiry, suspects are (often, not always) ruled out long before the investigation results in perpetrators being nailed.
Joanna Yate's boyfriend was (initially) suspected, then ruled out, long before the true perpetrator of the crime was nailed; ditto, the landlord (of the couple where they lived) ...
Title: Re: Scotland Yard are examining phone traffic in PDL on May 3 2007
Post by: Eleanor on April 14, 2016, 08:53:26 PM
During the course of a (progressive) enquiry, suspects are (often, not always) ruled out long before the investigation results in perpetrators being nailed.
Joanna Yate's boyfriend was (initially) suspected, then ruled out, long before the true perpetrator of the crime was nailed; ditto, the landlord (of the couple where they lived) ...
Of course suspects are investigated and ruled out in the course of an investigation but this is still unsolved after 9 years which means they can't rule anything out. In many cases suspects are ruled out early on but when new evidence appears they are the ones that did it. That is reality not fantasy because perps lie/trick the police believe it or not @)(++(*
DCI Redwood said that police had sought to "try and draw everything back to zero... take everything back to the beginning and then reanalyse and reassess everything, accepting nothing".
Title: Re: Scotland Yard are examining phone traffic in PDL on May 3 2007
Post by: ferryman on April 14, 2016, 09:25:00 PM
Of course suspects are investigated and ruled out in the course of an investigation but this is still unsolved after 9 years which means they can't rule anything out. In many cases suspects are ruled out early on but when new evidence appears they are the ones that did it. That is reality not fantasy because perps lie/trick the police believe it or not @)(++(*
DCI Redwood said that police had sought to "try and draw everything back to zero... take everything back to the beginning and then reanalyse and reassess everything, accepting nothing".
Ben Needham's disappearance remains unsolved after (I have lost track of how many) decades, yet Kerry Needham has (long since) been ruled out (and rightly so).
Title: Re: Scotland Yard are examining phone traffic in PDL on May 3 2007
Post by: mercury on April 14, 2016, 09:33:02 PM
During the course of a (progressive) enquiry, suspects are (often, not always) ruled out long before the investigation results in perpetrators being nailed.
Joanna Yate's boyfriend was (initially) suspected, then ruled out, long before the true perpetrator of the crime was nailed; ditto, the landlord (of the couple where they lived) ...
Ben Needham's disappearance remains unsolved after (I have lost track of how many) decades, yet Kerry Needham has (long since) been ruled out (and rightly so).
Nobody is ruled out if you take on a case. A detective is not doing their job if they start with a preconceived state of mind.
Title: Re: Scotland Yard are examining phone traffic in PDL on May 3 2007
Post by: ferryman on April 14, 2016, 09:51:00 PM
So the second enquiry will have commenced without any pre-conceived conceptions (about the - alleged - 'guilt! of the McCanns? ...
Sometimes, it is the prime suspect's door I am knocking on, whether I know it or not. Usually, I treat everyone as a suspect in a cold case because the simple fact is, I don't know who committed the murder.
I don't let the people I'm interviewing know that I consider them suspects. I treat them like they were friends or witnesses, and I tell them I'm just gathering information. But I watch them; I observe them keenly.
Inside the Mind of a Cold Case Detective To solve a decades-old murder you have to be curious, dedicated, and dogged in the search for the truth.
I love old detectives. I have worked with two; they had a combined 60 years of homicide experience between them. I loved listening to their stories, but I can tell you right now that some of what they say is BS. When they tell me a guy is innocent because of the way he reacted to a picture of the victim or that a guy shouldn't be considered a suspect because he showed up early for the interview, I laugh. The first thing a good investigator, especially a cold case investigator, needs to know is that you can't base your conclusions on past experiences because those experiences are not foolproof.
The only way to solve a decades-old murder is through hard work, thorough analysis of the evidence, and plain old witness interviews.
Greg Reardon, who grew up in Repton, had his mobile phone and laptop confiscated last week by police investigating the murder of his girlfriend, landscape architect Joanna Yeates.
Lest I be accused of quoting out of context, police confiscated his mobile phone and laptop because they wanted to rule him out (ie, initially, suspected him).
But the suspicions proved without foundation, and he was (later) commended by police as an excellent witness ....
Title: Re: Scotland Yard are examining phone traffic in PDL on May 3 2007
Post by: Eleanor on April 14, 2016, 10:44:37 PM