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Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Heriberto Janosch on June 26, 2013, 11:44:19 PM
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What do you think?
There was a theft 17 days before the abduction of Madeleine in the same block of apartments: "... most recently on 16th April 2007 there was a theft from an apartment in Block 5L, from where a plasma display screen, credit cards and a mobile phone belonging to the respective guests were taken ...".
"... the theft took place at the end of the day and according to the guests the event happened when they had left for dinner after completing check in and having left their suitcases in the apartment [...] the guests having said that they had just left the door on the latch ..."
The detail is as follows. Was it a coincidence that the theft occurred just after the check in, and in a second floor apartment? If it was no coincidence how the thief got the information? Who had that information?
Heri.
Read more... (http://espacioexterior.blogspot.com.es/2013/06/the-madeleine-mccann-abduction-just.html)
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What do you think?
http://espacioexterior.blogspot.com.es/2013/06/the-madeleine-mccann-abduction-just.html (http://espacioexterior.blogspot.com.es/2013/06/the-madeleine-mccann-abduction-just.html)
Heri.
Very interesting Heri. How convienient is that?
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What do you think?
http://espacioexterior.blogspot.com.es/2013/06/the-madeleine-mccann-abduction-just.html (http://espacioexterior.blogspot.com.es/2013/06/the-madeleine-mccann-abduction-just.html)
Heri.
Jeez, Heri, where did you find that?
Another burglary via the front door? That makes three (Madeleine almost certainly went via the front door despite the blinds being up and the window open) in the same block in a matter of three weeks, doesn't it?
Well found Heri
The front door again
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Speculation, speculation and more speculation.
A burglary, wow !
Now that never happens anywhere does it. 8**8:/:
P.S. Heri. YOU CAN'T CALL IT AN ABDUCTION UNLESS THERE IS PROOF OF IT.
It remains a 'thesis'.
Och aye.
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Jeez, Heri, where did you find that?
Another burglary via the front door? That makes three (Madeleine almost certainly went via the front door despite the blinds being up and the window open) in the same block in a matter of three weeks, doesn't it?
Well found Heri
The front door again
Actually Amaral does mention 'entry with a key via the front door' as a possibility - but then for some reason discards that theory.
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What is the intimation in this thread ?
That a burglar went into the McCanns apartment to steal valuables, but took a child instead ?
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What is the intimation in this thread ?
That a burglar went into the McCanns apartment to steal valuables, but took a child instead ?
I thought it was the apparent ease in which intruders could get in through the front doors of the apartments.
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I thought it was the apparent ease in which intruders could get in through the front doors of the apartments.
ahh, I see ( I misunderstood )
On the subject of the front door having been the point of entry ( via a duplicate key ) why is it, do you think, that the McCanns themselves, their friends, family, and spokesman, have never proffered this theory ?
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ahh, I see ( I misunderstood )
On the subject of the front door having been the point of entry ( via a duplicate key ) why is it, do you think, that the McCanns themselves, their friends, family, and spokesman, have never proffered this theory ?
They have Icab.
From Kate's book:
Quote
For a long while we would assume that the abductor had entered and exited through the window of the children's bedroom, but it is equally possible that he used the patio doors or even had a key to the front door.
End Quote
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What do you think?
http://espacioexterior.blogspot.com.es/2013/06/the-madeleine-mccann-abduction-just.html (http://espacioexterior.blogspot.com.es/2013/06/the-madeleine-mccann-abduction-just.html)
Heri.
I think anyone who leaves the door on the latch and their credit cards and mobiles in their holiday rent is careless
Source of the story with full statement
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARIA-GONCALVES.htm
Witness Statement
Maria Da Graca Guerreiro Alao Goncalves
Date/Time: 2007/05/07 11H00
Record (book) Keeper
Portuguese
She comes to the case as a witness, having worked as a record (book)-keeper in the Accounting Section of the Ocean Club resort in Praia da Luz since 1985;
She states that her functions involve all accounting services of the resort, but mainly the administration of the payment of accounts;
When asked, she says that she does not have any direct contact with the guests, as when payments are made, they are not made directly to her;
When asked she says that she does not know Madeleine’s parents, nor the child, given that, as she has already stated, she has no direct contact with guests;
She says that as far as she can remember, during the years that she has worked at the resort, she knows of some thefts from inside the apartments and most recently on 16th April 2007 there was a theft from an apartment in Block 5 L, from where a plasma display screen, credit cards and a mobile phone belonging to the respective guests were taken.
As far as she knows, as she prepared the papers for the insurance company, the theft took place at the end of the day and according to the guests the event happened when they had left for dinner after completing check in and having left their suitcases in the apartment.
She says that she does not remember having been told that doors or windows had been forced, the guests having said that they had just left the door on the latch, however she is not certain.
When asked, she says that she was never told of the existence of any suspects or where those responsible for the theft had been identified.
When asked, she replies that she has no knowledge of strange or unknown individuals who have been stopped or seen inside or outside of the resort during the time that she has worked there.
When asked, she says that she has never been asked about the functioning of the resort or more precisely about the type of guests that frequent the resort, although some friends have asked her if there was work to be had in the cleaning sector.
She says that on the 3rd of May, 2007, she came to work as normal, at 09H30, left at 13H00, having gone to lunch at home in Lagos and returned at 14H30;
During this period, she does not remember having seen any individual or vehicle that caught her attention;
At about 18H30, she left work and went home and again did not see anything out of the ordinary or suspicious in the exterior of the resort;
She became aware of the facts the next day, Friday, by means of a colleague.
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ahh, I see ( I misunderstood )
On the subject of the front door having been the point of entry ( via a duplicate key ) why is it, do you think, that the McCanns themselves, their friends, family, and spokesman, have never proffered this theory ?
Not until 2011, when interviewed by Piers Morgan and slightly different to what KM says in her book
MORGAN: No, actual evidence. There's nothing they could find to say this is unequivocally how this person came in?
G. MCCANN: No. I mean, it's possible they came through the window. They could have come through the patio doors, although that was in sight of where we were dining. So I think that's probably less likely. For all we know, they could have had a key, you know, lots of people stayed in that apartment over years to the front door --
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1779.0
See transcript
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I think anyone who leaves the door on the latch and their credit cards and mobiles in their holiday rent is careless
What does leaving a door "on the latch" mean when supposedly doors can't be opened from the outside without a key?
NB She only says that she thinks that might have been the case.
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What does leaving a door "on the latch" mean when supposedly doors can't be opened from the outside without a key?
NB She only says that she thinks that might have been the case.
door on the latch must refer to a communal door
an apartment front door cant be left on the latch can it
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A credit card opens doors left on the latch. Except for 5A, screw obstruction.
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A credit card opens doors left on the latch. Except for 5A, screw obstruction.
Why do you think Amaral didn't follow up the possibility that an abductor had entered through the front door with a key Anne? It's obvious that intruders did get into apartments via the front door -and yet apart from acknowledging that it could have happened that way, he apparently goes no further down that road of enquiry. I find that very strange - don't you?
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Why do you think Amaral didn't follow up the possibility that an abductor had entered through the front door with a key Anne? It's obvious that intruders did get into apartments via the front door -and yet apart from acknowledging that it could have happened that way, he apparently goes no further down that road of enquiry. I find that very strange - don't you?
Indeed. Amaral's documentary spent much time demonstrating that the door could not be opened with a credit card, but ignored the glaringly obvious alternative proposition that a key could have been used by the abductor.
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Why do you think Amaral didn't follow up the possibility that an abductor had entered through the front door with a key Anne? It's obvious that intruders did get into apartments via the front door -and yet apart from acknowledging that it could have happened that way, he apparently goes no further down that road of enquiry. I find that very strange - don't you?
A copy of a key, why not ? The only question is that it implies some complicity or even the key copier who could remember you.
I find more strange the window, shutters and curtains, first seen open in statement to the PJ, first seen shut in "Madeleine".
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A copy of a key, why not ? The only question is that it implies some complicity or even the key copier who could remember you.
I find more strange the window, shutters and curtains, first seen open in statement to the PJ, first seen shut in "Madeleine".
What do you find strange about the shutters and curtains Anne? Kate returned home to find the shutters and window which had been closed all week to be open and her daughter missing. What do you think she should have thought at that moment?
Edited to change 'curtain' to 'window' - (curtain typed in error)
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She noticed that the door to her children's bedroom was completely open, the window was also open, the shutters raised and the curtains open, while she was certain of having closed them all as she always did.
First statement to the PJ (4th of May)
On our arrival we had lowered the blind-style shutters on the outside of the windows, which were controlled from the inside, and closed the curtains. We left them that way all week. This early in the season, the nights were not that warm, there was no need to open a window
in "Madeleine"
When I realized Madeleine wasn’t actually there, I went through to our bedroom to see if she’d got into our bed. That would explain the open door. On the discovery of another empty bed, the first wave of panic hit me. As I ran back into the children’s room the closed curtains flew up in a gust of wind. My heart lurched as I saw now that, behind them, the window was wide open and the shutters on the outside raised all the way up.
in "Madeleine"
(In the documentary it is when the curtains whoosh that she sees Madeleine isn't in her bed.)
Thanks to Icabodcrane who pinpointed our attention on this change and the motive for it.
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door on the latch must refer to a communal door
an apartment front door cant be left on the latch can it
Wouldn't the locks on doors in that same apartment block be the same? If so, a key would be needed to open the apartment door.
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What is the intimation in this thread ?
That a burglar went into the McCanns apartment to steal valuables, but took a child instead ?
I find that plausible.
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I find that plausible.
As equally plausible as all the atoms and molecules of gas in my living room diffusing into the top right hand corner of the room.
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As equally plausible as all the atoms and molecules of gas in my living room diffusing into the top right hand corner of the room.
I'd never thought of stale old farts...
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I find that plausible.
Yes, it is plausible that the abduction was commited by a theft that was surprised to find Madeleine close to the window when he opened it. And I think it is also plausible that the theft on April 16th. in apartmet 5L was related to Madeleine abduction in 5A, 17 days after.
But I was not be able to call your attention to the main point, which is not about doors and windows ... I wrote in my blog: "Was it a coincidence that the theft occurred just after the check in, and in a second floor apartment? If it was no coincidence, how the thief got the information? Who had that information?"
Or in other words, had the thief, at least, info from an Ocean Club employee?
Heri.
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I have read that there was a spate of burglaries at the resort including an attempted burglary at the apartment immediately above the McCanns occupied by the late Mrs Fenn. I find it very troubling that new arrivals weren't warned about these activities.
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Yes, it is plausible that the abduction was commited by a theft that was surprised to find Madeleine close to the window when he opened it. And I think it is also plausible that the theft on April 16th. in apartmet 5L was related to Madeleine abduction in 5A, 17 days after.
But I was not be able to call your attention to the main point, which is not about doors and windows ... I wrote in my blog: "Was it a coincidence that the theft occurred just after the check in, and in a second floor apartment? If it was no coincidence, how the thief got the information? Who had that information?"
Or in other words, had the thief, at least, info from an Ocean Club employee?
Heri.
That is what I meant, on my post, Heri. When I said ' How Convienient'.
How many staff staatements, gave false information, about Kate shouting from the balcony?
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She noticed that the door to her children's bedroom was completely open, the window was also open, the shutters raised and the curtains open, while she was certain of having closed them all as she always did.
First statement to the PJ (4th of May)
On our arrival we had lowered the blind-style shutters on the outside of the windows, which were controlled from the inside, and closed the curtains. We left them that way all week. This early in the season, the nights were not that warm, there was no need to open a window
in "Madeleine"
When I realized Madeleine wasn’t actually there, I went through to our bedroom to see if she’d got into our bed. That would explain the open door. On the discovery of another empty bed, the first wave of panic hit me. As I ran back into the children’s room the closed curtains flew up in a gust of wind. My heart lurched as I saw now that, behind them, the window was wide open and the shutters on the outside raised all the way up.
in "Madeleine"
(In the documentary it is when the curtains whoosh that she sees Madeleine isn't in her bed.)
Thanks to Icabodcrane who pinpointed our attention on this change and the motive for it.
I hadn't noticed that so appreciate you both pointing it out. My own view is that the so-called documentary was a sham effort from beginning to end. I still cannot believe even now that the chatting with Jez event could be got so completely wrong by either Jane or Gerry. Was one of them drunk?
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Heri. Is it your view that Madeleine was taken by an opportunist sneak thief? What is your evidence for this?
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She noticed that the door to her children's bedroom was completely open, the window was also open, the shutters raised and the curtains open, while she was certain of having closed them all as she always did.
First statement to the PJ (4th of May)
On our arrival we had lowered the blind-style shutters on the outside of the windows, which were controlled from the inside, and closed the curtains. We left them that way all week. This early in the season, the nights were not that warm, there was no need to open a window
in "Madeleine"
When I realized Madeleine wasn’t actually there, I went through to our bedroom to see if she’d got into our bed. That would explain the open door. On the discovery of another empty bed, the first wave of panic hit me. As I ran back into the children’s room the closed curtains flew up in a gust of wind. My heart lurched as I saw now that, behind them, the window was wide open and the shutters on the outside raised all the way up.
in "Madeleine"
(In the documentary it is when the curtains whoosh that she sees Madeleine isn't in her bed.)
Thanks to Icabodcrane who pinpointed our attention on this change and the motive for it.
The first sentence is a condensed summary - an interpretation by someone else and not Kate McCanns own words. It's not easy to accurately describe to a third party what exactly happened with curtains in a breeze, without standing by the actual window to show what happened. Easy for small misunderstandings to happen during that conversation IMO. That is what I think happened.
The second two texts are in her own words - and in both she states the curtains were closed.
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The first sentence is a condensed summary - an interpretation by someone else and not Kate McCanns own words. It's not easy to accurately describe to a third party what exactly happened with curtains in a breeze, without standing by the actual window to show what happened. Easy for small misunderstandings to happen during that conversation IMO. That is what I think happened.
The second two texts are in her own words - and in both she states the curtains were closed.
In the tapas groups joint statement typed in English and delivered to the PJ on 10 May it is said she ran over and opened the curtains. Another version. Then we have The gust of wind flew the curtains open from a closed position spoken about in various interviews and their documentary.? version 4? Or misunderstandings?
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIME_LINE_3_MAY_07.htm
At this point, she notices the curtains blowing forward with a gust of wind. She runs over, pulls open the curtain and notices the shutter was
completely raised, and the window pushed open to the left as far as possible.
From Madeleine was Here documentary
as I went back in, the curtains of the bedroom which were drawn,… were closed, … whoosh … It was like a gust of wind, kinda, just blew them open
From Mccanns on Oprah
literally as I went back into their room the curtains that were drawn over just "foooosh" flew open and that's when I saw that the shutter was right up and the window was pushed right open
Edited
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The first sentence is a condensed summary - an interpretation by someone else and not Kate McCanns own words. It's not easy to accurately describe to a third party what exactly happened with curtains in a breeze, without standing by the actual window to show what happened. Easy for small misunderstandings to happen during that conversation IMO. That is what I think happened.
The second two texts are in her own words - and in both she states the curtains were closed.
It's indirect speach, yes. But are you suggesting the accredited interpret mistook "shut" (fechado) for "open" (aberto) ?
I remind you that Mrs McCann had to sign the statement after having heard it retranslated in English. There's no syntax issue here, just the simple word "open", repeated 3 times. Without Mrs McCann noticing ? Come on !
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In the tapas groups joint statement typed in English and delivered to the PJ on 10 May it is said she ran over and opened the curtains. Another version. Then we have The gust of wind flew the curtains open from a closed position spoken about in various interviews and their documentary.? version 4? Or misunderstandings?
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIME_LINE_3_MAY_07.htm
From Madeleije was Here documentary
as I went back in, the curtains of the bedroom which were drawn,… were closed, … whoosh … It was like a gust of wind, kinda, just blew them open
From Mccanns on Oprah
literally as I went back into their room the curtains that were drawn over just "foooosh" flew open and that's when I saw that the shutter was right up and the window was pushed right ope
Are we looking at different documents?
At this point, she notices the curtains blowing forward with a gust of wind. She runs over, pulls open the curtain and notices the shutter was completely reaised, and the window pushed open to the left as far as possible.
(http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P4/04_VOLUME_IVa_Page_890.jpg)
What's inconsistent?
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Same document Carana, obviously, the difference is whether Mrs Mccann or the wind (as she relates from the other quotes I posted) opened the curtains, and/or indeed if her first statement is correct that she found them open on entering the room.
Edited
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It's indirect speach, yes. But are you suggesting the accredited interpret mistook "shut" (fechado) for "open" (aberto) ?
I remind you that Mrs McCann had to sign the statement after having heard it retranslated in English. There's no syntax issue here, just the simple word "open", repeated 3 times. Without Mrs McCann noticing ? Come on !
I'm saying that where the opening and closing of three different items i.e. windows, shutters and curtains is being discussed in the same conversation - the language barrier would be a reason for small misunderstandings to occur over what was open and what was shut and when.
It may be that Kate didn't notice a small discrepancy when it was being read back to her. There is a huge difference between having something read back to you at the readers pace, and actually reading words on a page at your own pace where discrepancies would leap out of the page at you. Having to have everything translated and re-translated back and forth during interviews which could go on for many hours must be very tiring, so once again there is room for human error on both sides due to fatigue.
There are 3 statements. Two by Kate herself in her own words so we know there is no possibility of error there. and one statement which is a summarised interpretation by someone else of her words - where IMO there is room for error.
And of course at the time Kate had no idea that every single word she ever spoke was going to be pored over, put under a microscope and dissected at some future time by people looking to find fault.
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And of course at the time Kate had no idea that every single word she ever spoke was going to be pored over, put under a microscope and dissected at some future time by people looking to find fault.
Your may be wrong Benice. I can not believe there exist people so sick!
Heri.
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Your are wrong Benice. I can not believe there exist people so sick!
Heri.
Unfortunately I have seen loads of examples on the hate forums Heri. It's pathetic.
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In the tapas groups joint statement typed in English and delivered to the PJ on 10 May it is said she ran over and opened the curtains. Another version. Then we have The gust of wind flew the curtains open from a closed position spoken about in various interviews and their documentary.? version 4? Or misunderstandings?
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIME_LINE_3_MAY_07.htm
At this point, she notices the curtains blowing forward with a gust of wind. She runs over, pulls open the curtain and notices the shutter was completely raised, and the window pushed open to the left as far as possible.
From Madeleine was Here documentary
as I went back in, the curtains of the bedroom which were drawn,… were closed, … whoosh … It was like a gust of wind, kinda, just blew them open
From Mccanns on Oprah
literally as I went back into their room the curtains that were drawn over just "foooosh" flew open and that's when I saw that the shutter was right up and the window was pushed right open
Edited
Did the "interpreter" who was the first person called in at short notice, and the police officer making notes, understand a) her accent and b) what she may have said to express the idea of "curtains that were drawn over just "foooosh" flew open"?
A recorded interview would have clarified all of this.
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I'm saying that where the opening and closing of three different items i.e. windows, shutters and curtains is being discussed in the same conversation - the language barrier would be a reason for small misunderstandings to occur over what was open and what was shut and when.
Only there was never any issue about the window and shutters being open on Kate Mccanns check.
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I'm saying that where the opening and closing of three different items i.e. windows, shutters and curtains is being discussed in the same conversation - the language barrier would be a reason for small misunderstandings to occur over what was open and what was shut and when.
It may be that Kate didn't notice a small discrepancy when it was being read back to her. There is a huge difference between having something read back to you at the readers pace, and actually reading words on a page at your own pace where discrepancies would leap out of the page at you. Having to have everything translated and re-translated back and forth during interviews which could go on for many hours must be very tiring, so once again there is room for human error on both sides due to fatigue.
There are 3 statements. Two by Kate herself in her own words so we know there is no possibility of error there. and one statement which is a summarised interpretation by someone else of her words - where IMO there is room for error.
And of course at the time Kate had no idea that every single word she ever spoke was going to be pored over, put under a microscope and dissected at some future time by people looking to find fault.
It's not clear to me what was read back. Was it the written statement once printed in Portuguese or the notes? If they were notes, whose would they be? The interpreter's or the police officer's?
Quite a few people have stated that there were inaccuracies in their original statements.
But this was also the case in Russ's rog interview when the recording didn't work and they went through notes taken to establish a statement of that interview.
And that was in English - i.e., without multiple language problems.
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Did the "interpreter" who was the first person called in at short notice, and the police officer making notes, understand a) her accent and b) what she may have said to express the idea of "curtains that were drawn over just "foooosh" flew open"?
A recorded interview would have clarified all of this.
Oh so now her accent and not actual words matter, LOL, never mind
You are ignoring her own words in english in televised interviews where she said the wind caused to the curtains to open from a closed position, not just fly up with a gust, but to an open position,this is contrary to the joint tapas group statement and contrary to her first interview, that is all, the devil is in the detail as they say
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I have changed my post (that which triggered this thread?, and added 5 pics ...
If burglar means "break in with damage" the three crimes I put here are not burglaries.
http://espacioexterior.blogspot.com.es/2013/06/the-madeleine-mccann-abduction-just.html (http://espacioexterior.blogspot.com.es/2013/06/the-madeleine-mccann-abduction-just.html)
Heri
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I have changed my post (that which triggered this thread?, and added 5 pics ...
http://espacioexterior.blogspot.com.es/2013/06/the-madeleine-mccann-abduction-just.html (http://espacioexterior.blogspot.com.es/2013/06/the-madeleine-mccann-abduction-just.html)
Heri
why would an opportunistic and or regular burglar after goods suddenly decide to steal a child instead of the plasma tv or credit cards? It does not make sense
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why would an opportunistic and or regular burglar after goods suddenly decide to steal a child instead of the plasma tv or credit cards? It does not make sense
Read the bibliography about how versatile the offenders are.
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Read the bibliography about how versatile the offenders are.
must admit I have never ever read that common burglars decide oh i found a child while i was looking for money or a tv or credit cards i will sell that on no problem
Sorry Heri, there is no plausible connection with common burglaries and missing Madeleine IMO
child abductions are either planned or even if opportunistic different from anything I read part of opportunistic or planned burglary
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Oh so now her accent and not actual words matter, LOL, never mind
You are ignoring her own words in english in televised interviews where she said the wind caused to the curtains to open from a closed position, not just fly up with a gust, but to an open position,this is contrary to the joint tapas group statement and contrary to her first interview, that is all, the devil is in the detail as they say
I don't think I'm ignoring anything.
She was in a state of panic and had obviously had little sleep, if any.
I wonder what what she was actually asked, what she said, what the "interpreter" understood (who may or may not have had that much experience), what the interpreter said to the police officer in Portuguese and what he actually wrote down, possibly first in notes. Then, there was some process of confirming/reading back to her which isn't at all clear. And then she had to sign on the dotted line in a document in Portuguese.
The point at that stage was to get the ball rolling. The police needed to know the basics; the parents needed to get more officers looking for her.
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must admit I have never ever read that common burglars decide oh i found a child while i was looking for money or a tv or credit cards i will sell that on no problem
Sorry Heri, there is no plausible connection with common burglaries and missing Madeleine IMO
It is your uneducated opinion about the versatility of offenders. Read the criminological biblography and learn.
Heri.
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I don't think I'm ignoring anything.
She was in a state of panic and had obviously had little sleep, if any.
I wonder what what she was actually asked, what she said, what the "interpreter" understood (who may or may not have had that much experience), what the interpreter said to the police officer in Portuguese and what he actually wrote down, possibly first in notes. Then, there was some process of confirming/reading back to her which isn't at all clear. And then she had to sign on the dotted line in a document in Portuguese.
The point at that stage was to get the ball rolling. The police needed to know the basics; the parents needed to get more officers looking for her.
Ok fine as you like.......
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must admit I have never ever read that common burglars decide oh i found a child while i was looking for money or a tv or credit cards i will sell that on no problem
Sorry Heri, there is no plausible connection with common burglaries and missing Madeleine IMO
child abductions are either planned or even if opportunistic different from anything I read part of opportunistic or planned burglary
What about the "child in the bath case" in the UK?
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What about the "child in the bath case" in the UK?
Was that a burglary?
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Ok fine as you like.......
It's not as I like.
What if you had had a major distressing drama involving the disappearance of a vulnerable loved one in a foreign country in which you didn't understand a word of the language, and needed to mobilise as many people as possible to help search?
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It's not as I like.
What if you had had a major distressing drama involving the disappearance of a vulnerable loved one in a foreign country in which you didn't understand a word of the language, and needed to mobilise as many people as possible to help search?
Sorry, but are you suggesting kate mccann signed off her interview whatever was in it? Because she wanted theball rolling? hello?
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Was that a burglary?
Hard to tell... There were two similar cases, I'm not sure that this is the one that came to mind.
Defendant said he 'wept' on hearing of abduction
Published on 17/10/2006 15:23
A CONVICTED paedophile broke down as he took the stand denying that he had any sexual interest in young children.
Peter Ivor Voisey, also known as Smith, is accused of abducting a six-year-old girl from her home in North Tyneside last December then subjecting her to rape and serious sexual assault before being dumped naked in a back alley.
Voisey, of Twentythird Avenue, Blyth, wept as he described to the jury at Newcastle Crown Court how he felt after hearing of the attack.
"I felt sick to the guts, I felt sorry for her.
"I knew because my name was on the sex offender register that, if no one had been arrested, it would be a matter of time before the police spoke to me."
Voisey added that he could not remember what he had been doing on December 26 but could remember in great detail what he had been doing on December 27 – the day of the alleged attack, because he had been attempting to purchase cannabis from the Walker and Wallsend areas on two occasions.
He added that for him Christmas was 'a stressful time' but it was the 'best Christmas I have ever had' and that both he and his half-sister Kerry, who he lives with, believe that 'Christmas should be a magical time for children'.
Earlier, the court was told of an incident in Macclesfield Leisure Centre in July 2001 where Voisey was arrested for indecently assaulting a 12-year-old girl.
He was sentenced to three years, later reduced to two on appeal, after molesting the youngster in the family changing rooms.
Robert Woodcock, prosecuting, said Voisey was convicted in September 2001 after pleading guilty, but he only admitted the offence after being caught by CCTV footage.
It showed him approach two young girls who were washing.
"He grabbed one, who was just 12-years-old, put his arm around her, told her to be quiet before placing his hand underneath her swimsuit," said Mr Woodcock.
He then said Voisey indecently assaulted the girl and hung around the changing and locker rooms for seven minutes, where he was seen with his hand down his tracksuit trousers.
Mr Woodcock added: "When he was arrested, Voisey denied being in the area or that he had spoken to any girls or gone into the changing area.
"After CCTV recordings were played he admitted having been in the family changing room and touching the girl, but only on the outside of the swimsuit, he denied putting his hand under her swim suit."
Lifelong friend Keith French told the jury how on one occasion Voisey had made a comment about a woman and her two young children, saying he wanted to abduct one from the street.
During the incident in 2004, Mr French said he had been picked up by Voisey in a white van from the Central Station in Newcastle.
As they drove towards Wallsend, Voisey made a comment about the group.
"He said he would like to take a kid off the street," Mr French claimed.
"The children were about six and eight.
"He made a remark that he would take children off the street if he had the chance and that he would do something to them."
When cross examined by defence barrister Franz Muller QC, 35-year-old Mr French admitted he had been taunted over the years by Voisey about his weight, disabilities and relationships.
But he denied making up the incident to get back at his friend, saying he had "no reason to lie".
Another witness and friend, Clive Rudd, claimed Voisey told him once of committing a burglary where he groped a woman who had been asleep on the settee.
He said: "He told me he had gone in through the front door. He said he had stolen a mobile phone.
"He said there had been a female asleep on the settee when he had burgled the house, she was semi-naked.
"He said he had touched her on her private parts."
Voisey refuted claims by second prosecutor James Goss QC that he had been dressed in black and had set out on December 27 to burgle more properties which, through his own admission, were in an area with 'typical Tyneside flats' of which he knew the lay out.
Mr Goss said: "When you went into that house and saw that child in the bath, your desire to do something to that child just overcame you, didn't it?
Voisey replied: "No sir, not at all."
Voicey also rejected DNA evidence which the prosecution claim links the defendant to the crime, like a footprint found on the bathroom floor and specifics taken from the child.
Mr Goss said: "When interviewed by police why did you say that it was 'physically impossible' for your DNA to have been found?"
Voisey said: "I meant that it was physically impossible because I wasn't there – it was not me."
Mr Goss produced Voisey's diary reading out the entry for December 27 which said: "Phew its over, chill now" claiming that Voisey was referring to the attack.
This was denied by Voisey who said that he was referring to the 'stressful build up' of Christmas saying that he was relieved that it was over.
The trial continues.
http://www.newspostleader.co.uk/news/local/defendant-said-he-wept-on-hearing-of-abduction-1-1618233
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Sorry, but are you suggesting kate mccann signed off her interview whatever was in it? Because she wanted theball rolling? hello?
How would she have known that every detail was correct?
They were trying to get the search moving, not checking every little detail in a provincial police station that would later be picked apart as proof of their so-called "guilt".
The police didn't have time, either. They needed basic information and had hundreds of people from whom to take statements within a short period of time.
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ok carana so that has what to do with burglary for money and objects? And switched to stealing a child?
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How would she have known that every detail was correct?
They were trying to get the search moving, not checking every little detail in a provincial police station that would later be picked apart as proof of their so-called "guilt".
The police didn't have time, either. They needed basic information and had hundreds of people from whom to take statements within a short period of time.
if it was read back to her in english she shoukd have known/heard if it was correct or not and challenged anythingthat wasnt, thats all, not rocket science, they way you talk is that the interviews and evidence given to police was unimportant and just something to get out of the way as quick as possible so they could go on and get the search moving?? Hello
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if it was read back to her in english she shoukd have known/heard if it was correct or not and challenged anythingthat wasnt, thats all, not rocket science, they way you talk is that the interviews and evidence given to police was unimportant and just something to get out of the way as quick as possible so they could go on and get the search moving?? Hello
Oh ... you were right, Benice.
Heri.
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Oh ... you were right, Benice.
Heri.
No she and you were wrong
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It is your uneducated opinion about the versatility of offenders. Read the criminological biblography and learn.
Heri.
8@??)( Words of wisdom
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I still don't see why it can't have been a burglary gone wrong.
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I still don't see why it can't have been a burglary gone wrong.
could have been Carana.
Personally and unhappily, I think it was meticulously planned and professionally executed with child abductioin in mind. I hope that I am wrong
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Oh ... you were right, Benice.
Heri.
Thanks Heri.
To some people the McCanns are not allowed to have the same human frailties as the rest of us. They must never get a word wrong, never mishear anything, never have a slip of the tongue, never get their words mixed up, never repeat anything unless they use the exact same words they used the last time - otherwise this is absolute proof that they are guilty! Quite preposterous.
Apart from having their daughter abducted, the worst thing that happened to the McCanns was to have her abducted in a foreign country where they didn't speak the language - together with other cultural differences, all of which combined against them to make everything a million times more difficult than if it had happened in the UK.
Sceptics give no consideration whatsoever to any of that.
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Why do you believe this?
I don't believe it in the sense of being convinced... but I find it a possibility.
Someone gets in, intending to steal. Madeleine could have woken up and been about to holler, realising that whoever made the noise wasn't one of her parents.
Would a burglar have just just carried on in the presence of a screaming child?
Or run out?
Have attempted to shut her up? If so, how? A big hand on a small face?
If she'd fallen into an unconscious state... Then what? Leave her there? Or carry her out to try to get help? Or dispose of her?
Or maybe even leave her somewhere for others to take in?
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I don't believe it in the sense of being convinced... but I find it a possibility.
Someone gets in, intending to steal. Madeleine could have woken up and been about to holler, realising that whoever made the noise wasn't one of her parents.
Would a burglar have just just carried on in the presence of a screaming child?
Or run out?
Have attempted to shut her up? If so, how? A big hand on a small face?
If she'd fallen into an unconscious state... Then what? Leave her there? Or carry her out to try to get help? Or dispose of her?
Or maybe even leave her somewhere for others to take in?
Carana, you are not right, my dear.
.... sorry
It was planned down to the last detail.
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I find your post quite offensive actually.
I have never gone down the road of speculating about what has happened to Madeleine and never will.
I leave that to the sceptics.
Madeleine is missing.
Madeleine may or may not be found one day.
All we can do is hope for the best.
Of course, I simply replied to your question.
There is always a chance that she is still alive. There is nothing to prove that she isn't.
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Carana, you are not right, my dear.
.... sorry
It was planned down to the last detail.
Perhaps, and I respect that that's your view.
There might be alternatives...
The bottom line is that this little girl is still missing.
Have all orphanages, convents, sects been checked? Both in Portugal and in countries within reasonable proximity?
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It was planned down to the last detail.
I totally agree with you Sadie. Madeleine was targeted, pure and simple. I also believe the other incidents at the resort highlighted by Heri are connected in some way with what occurred at apartment 5a not too many days later.
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I totally agree with you Sadie. Madeleine was targeted, pure and simple. I also believe the other incidents at the resort highlighted by Heri are connected in some way with what occurred at apartment 5a not too many days later.
I agree too. The fact that Thursday night was chosen, rather than the last night - Friday -is very pertinent IMO, because the abductors would be aware that people often change their routines the night before they leave - with packing etc. to do. A planned abduction would certainly take that possibility into account. imo.
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Without straying too far from the topic heading provided by Heri, there is logic in what happened. It might also be the case that there was indeed an abandoned attempt to snatch her on the Wednesday night but for whatever reason it failed.
I think Heris initial suggestion has much merit.
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All of the above comments are purely hypothetical.
Now let's get real.
If Madeleine's disappearance was a targeted 'abduction', there would be a trail of people involved, it would not be a one off.
This case at one point, had a reward on offer in the region of I believe £5 million. There is NO WAY someone would not spill the beans, and that allied with worldwide publicity.........................
If I am wrong, I will throw up my hands and apologize profusely to the Mccanns, without reservation.
To those who believe in abduction and if that is proved wrong, what will you do ?
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If I was proven to be wrong then I would not be in the least concerned for me personally. I haven't spent the last six years accusing two very possibly innocent people of killing their daughter, or worse. I haven't deliberately tried to interfere with the search for a missing child. I haven't concurred with depravity and vicious innuendo.
I would be very worried about me if I had.
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Sorry Heri.
Do I think that Burglaries are related? Only in so far as Keys seem to be important in perpetrating access.
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...
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Actually, I would think that as likely as a prelude to 'abduction' as is Vee8's belief that Madeleine was the second coming. 8)-)))
So you don't believe that someone could have had a key? Thank you for that.
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No, I don't believe in an airy fairy abduction. You've got it in one. 8@??)(
Amaral thought it was possible that a key could have been used.
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Perfect. I ask Stephen25000 if he thinks someone could have had a key, and he replies that he doesn't believe in airy fairy abductions.
This is why it is not possible to debate with these people. I normally don't bother because I don't give a rat's arse to what they think. So this has just proved my personal thoughts. You can't debate with them.
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Perfect. I ask Stephen25000 if he thinks someone could have had a key, and he replies that he doesn't believe in airy fairy abductions.
This is why it is not possible to debate with these people. I normally don't bother because I don't give a rat's ar.. to what they think. So this has just proved my personal thoughts. You can't debate with them.
Any key usage will have been signed for or authorised, checked on return and kept in special safes, unless you know otherwise you are directly accusing MW staff of involvement. No cleaners or other staff reported any key missing.
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Amaral thought it was possible that a key could have been used.
Yes, does her really answer the question of exactly HOW many keys there were in circulation?
If someone had gotten hold of a key & was planning to use it in a crime, do people really think they'd have complied with the regulation & signed off for it. Just ridiculous.
It was a rental apartment, there could have been any number of keys unaccounted for.
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Yes, does her really answer the question of exactly HOW many keys there were in circulation?
If someone had gotten hold of a key & was planning to use it in a crime, do people really think they'd have complied with the regulation & signed off for it. Just ridiculous.
It was a rental apartment, there could have been any number of keys unaccounted for.
Thats the point, none were unaccounted for, this being a major clue, it would havebeen investigated.
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We do know though, on account of the previous burglary attempts, that those perpetrators either had keys OR had some means of entering the apartments without breaking in & damaging the doors.
ETA The whereabouts of KNOWN keys were accounted for, that doesn't exclude the possibility that there could have been OTHER keys. As I said, it was a RENTAL apartment.
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We do know though, on account of the previous burglary attempts, that those perpetrators either had keys OR had some means of entering the apartments without breaking in & damaging the doors.
ETA The whereabouts of KNOWN keys were accounted for, that doesn't exclude the possibility that there could have been OTHER keys. As I said, it was a RENTAL apartment.
Obviously. And the security concerning keys was very lackadaisical. Not that anyone could be expected to steal a child, but the spate of burglaries should have told them something.
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Obviously. And the security concerning keys was very lackadaisical. Not that anyone could be expected to steal a child, but the spate of burglaries should have told them something.
At the very least, guests should have been warned to be more vigilant & security conscious, but nope, nobody told them anything.
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We do know though, on account of the previous burglary attempts, that those perpetrators either had keys OR had some means of entering the apartments without breaking in & damaging the doors.
ETA The whereabouts of KNOWN keys were accounted for, that doesn't exclude the possibility that there could have been OTHER keys. As I said, it was a RENTAL apartment.
What difference does it make if it was a rental apartment? Who outside MW apart from perhaps the owner, would have the keys? Who could be implicated in your opinion outside these people? You do know the type of key involved is very different to normal keys, a keycutter would know this, thats IF he was able to make copies, whch an experienced locksmith has said would be difficult.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/imagelib/sitebuilder/misc/show_image.html?linkedwidth=actual&linkpath=http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/notwkey.jpg&target=tlx_picebsh
Edited
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Anyone who had access to keys could have made copies, even if copying of keys is restricted & you need to show ID, criminals still have ways & means of obtaining keys & they don't tend to announce the fact that they have them.
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Obviously. And the security concerning keys was very lackadaisical.
Be interested to see any cite for that.
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What difference does it make if it was a rental apartment? Who outside MW apart from perhaps the owner, would have the keys? Who could be implicated in your opinion outside these people? You do know the type of key involved is very different to normal keys, a keycutter would know this, thats IF he was able to make copies.
Let's face it, everyone who ever worked there or stayed there had access to keys. No real problem to have them copied or have the odd key disappear.
I agree wholeheartedly Mrs B. Mark Warner had a duty to warn guests to take special care and they failed abysmally.
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Be interested to see any cite for that.
It is in the statements. Any member of staff could get a key from the safe in the garage if they needed a cess to any of the apartments.
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IF he was able to make copies, whch an experienced locksmith has said would be difficult.
No, this key could be reproduced anywhere without code in a couple of minutes. This could be why those locks aren't in use any more. I still have one though and was robbed (when at home!) by someone getting in with some bankcard.
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I know which keys they are Anne, and yes, they can be copied provided the locksmith has the correct machinery. Criminals tend to have a pretty good idea about this & even locksmiths have a price.
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I deal with Rental Property on the European Continent, and I know how easy it is to get copy keys. I do it myself on occasions, and have never been asked to prove who I am. I also know that keys get lost by visitors, and I wouldn't know if they were crooks or not. I generally believe them.
And then I keep a firm eye on the property just in case. I very much doubt that The Ocean Club do that.
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It is in the statements. Any member of staff could get a key from the safe in the garage if they needed a cess to any of the apartments.
Not aware any staff could take keys in the evenings outside working hours or that any were not returned by the end of the working day. And no MW staff members refers to this happening. Unless you think its possible one of the superiors/keykeepers are suspect.Their criminal records will have all been checked too I would have thought. None of them afaiaw from the files were ever flagged up. Not saying its impossible, just that the speculation has no basis in anything apart from possibility.
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Mark Warner had a duty to warn guests to take special care and they failed abysmally.
Shall we do the genealogy of responsibility ? Isn't anyone supposed to think and act for himself ? There's a creeping mania of blame nowadays, as if the world could be divided into victims and executioners, as societies are either mushrooms eaters or mushrooms non eaters.
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I deal with Rental Property on the European Continent, and I know how easy it is to get copy keys. I do it myself on occasions, and have never been asked to prove who I am. I also know that keys get lost by visitors, and I wouldn't know if they were crooks or not. I generally believe them.
And then I keep a firm eye on the property just in case. I very much doubt that The Ocean Club do that.
And we are not only talking about the people with DIRECT access to keys, it can be relatives, friends etc of people who had access to keys. How hard would it be to "borrow" a key for half an hour from anyone of them?
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I know which keys they are Anne, and yes, they can be copied provided the locksmith has the correct machinery. Criminals tend to have a pretty good idea about this & even locksmiths have a price.
Yes they do Mrs B and I'm sure the reward money would have suited him quite nicely. After all he could claim he had no knowledge of what the key was to be used for therefore he would not be directly involved in the crime and eligible for the million pound reward.
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No, this key could be reproduced anywhere without code in a couple of minutes. This could be why those locks aren't in use any more. I still have one though and was robbed (when at home!) by someone getting in with some bankcard.
OK, thanks for the info, I wasnt aware it was very easy, I was going off an old news article from thr now closed News of the World, so cant find the original
But Portuguese police have always believed any intruder would have used the FRONT DOOR to enter, knowing the McCanns would never use it that night. He could also have escaped through the shuttered front window to the children's bedroom. For this he would have needed a KEY to the front door. The one the McCanns had for the Ocean Club apartment is known in the locksmiths' trade as a "crucifix key"-and is very unusual because it has four sides. Experienced British locksmith John Reeder told us the key used to take us into the flat yesterday is almost certainly a copy. He said: "Most locksmiths would not be able to copy it without great difficulty. The one in the picture is almost certainly not the original."
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I know which keys they are Anne, and yes, they can be copied provided the locksmith has the correct machinery. Criminals tend to have a pretty good idea about this & even locksmiths have a price.
In Portugal these locks were very vulgar and all locksmiths had the device to copy them. No use to corrupt. Nowadays locks are sophisticated : the same lock has 2 or more different keys (2,3,4...). The "2 turns" key will only open 2 turns. The "4 turns" one opens in any case. Very convenient when you lend your key to someone who loses it. You don't have to change the lock.
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Not aware any staff could take keys in the evenings outside working hours or that any were not returned by the end of the working day. And no MW staff members refers to this happening. Unless you think its possible one of the superiors/keykeepers are suspect.Their criminal records will have all been checked too I would have thought. None of them afaiaw from the files were ever flagged up. Not saying its impossible, just that the speculation has no basis in anything apart from possibility.
You don't need to have access outside working hours Redblossom. Getting a key was the easiest thing in the world, copy it and put the original back.
In any event, who needs a key when the occupants leave the window unlocked and the shutters unlocked as the McCanns did?
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Some people value their freedom more than money & it's difficult to enjoy wealth when you're behind bars for the next 25 years.
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You don't need to have access outside working hours Redblossom. Getting a key was the easiest thing in the world, copy it and put the original back.
OK, yes, I see what you mean. Putting this on the backburner myself, for various reasons.
And yes,good point, why use a key for the front door which was in a lit area and might be seen by residents including the tapas group being there on their many checks, more so than an unlit dark entrance through the gate and unlocked patio doors, and where visual from the Tapas Bar was almost non existent, as shown in the channel 4 documentary and others, and as if anyone had their eyes glued on it all night.
Edited
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You don't need to have access outside working hours Redblossom. Getting a key was the easiest thing in the world, copy it and put the original back.
In any event, who needs a key when the occupants leave the window unlocked and the shutters unlocked as the McCanns did?
So where did the key come from, that was used to get into Mrs Fenn's apartment?
Another little niggle, I have. Why is Sylvia Baptista so high profile, in this investigation? She was only the Maintenance Services Director 8-)(--)
I presume she would have been responsible for all keys! Was she asked where they were kept, and checked?
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So where did the key come from, that was used to get into Mrs Fenn's apartment?
Another little niggle, I have. Why is Sylvia Baptista so high profile, in this investigation? She was only the Maintenance Services Director 8-)(--)
I presume she would have been responsible for all keys! Was she asked where they were kept, and checked?
I don't think we ever saw her answer to that one. Presuming that she was even asked.
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I probably asked this question before...cannot remember if I got an answer though.
Given the previous break ins at the Ocean Club resort, why didn't the McCanns sue Mark Warner for failure to properly ensure their security whilst using their facilities?
Or was it a case of keeping them on side to ensure their cooperation?
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I probably asked this question before...cannot remember if I got an answer though.
Given the previous break ins at the Ocean Club resort, why didn't the McCanns sue Mark Warner for failure to properly ensure their security whilst using their facilities?
Or was IG a case of keeping them on side to ensure their cooperation?
how can they sue for lapse in security when they left their back door open? And what is IG?
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I probably asked this question before...cannot remember if I got an answer though.
Given the previous break ins at the Ocean Club resort, why didn't the McCanns sue Mark Warner for failure to properly ensure their security whilst using their facilities?
Or was it a case of keeping them on side to ensure their cooperation?
Probably six of one and half a dozen of the other. Neither of them were actually to blame. So why waste time and money on a dead duck.
No one expected someone to steal a child.
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Perfect. I ask Stephen25000 if he thinks someone could have had a key, and he replies that he doesn't believe in airy fairy abductions.
This is why it is not possible to debate with these people. I normally don't bother because I don't give a rat's ar.. to what they think. So this has just proved my personal thoughts. You can't debate with them.
More to the point, your idea of 'debate' is that people have to agree with you. That isn't debate and this isn't 'just another thought you know'.
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Probably six of one and half a dozen of the other. Neither of them were actually to blame. So why waste time and money on a dead duck.
No one expected someone to steal a child.
I don't think such a lawsuit would have been successful either way, as they did add an element of risk to it themselves by leaving the children, even if they did check them regularly. I don't even think it would have been successful if they'd been using a baby listening service provided by the establishment.
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How do we know there was no evidence left by the abductor, after the crime scene had been utterly contaminated by everyone running around & then the dogs let lose in the apartment? There could have been residual DNA left on a variety of items, such as the Cuddlecat, Madeleine's bedding, etc, etc. Unfortunately, nobody took these items away & tested them. The only sampling with regards to DNA was AFTER the dogs had been brought in, by which time the apartment had already been rented out FOUR times. There could have been loads, we'll just never know now.
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So where did the key come from, that was used to get into Mrs Fenn's apartment?
Another little niggle, I have. Why is Sylvia Baptista so high profile, in this investigation? She was only the Maintenance Services Director 8-)(--)
I presume she would have been responsible for all keys! Was she asked where they were kept, and checked?
Was a key used to get into Mrs Fenn's apartment ? Was that in her statement ?
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Was a key used to get into Mrs Fenn's apartment ? Was that in her statement ?
You see. Pointless.
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how can they sue for lapse in security when they left their back door open? And what is IG?
Because quite simply Blossom dear they failed to provide proper security at the complex knowing bloody well how many times they had already been hit.
That for me spells neglect and incompetence. Had the McCanns been told of the previous break-ins they would have ensured their apartment was secure and Maddie might still be with them today.
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You see. Pointless.
Pamela Fenn said a man broke into her flat above the McCanns' holiday apartment in Praia da Luz, on the Algarve, just weeks before Madeleine disappeared.
There was no sign of a break-in and it is thought the intruder may have had a key.
Mrs Fenn, who is in her 70s, found the man scrambling out of the window and tried to grab his ankle. But he escaped.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id331.html
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Pamela Fenn said a man broke into her flat above the McCanns' holiday apartment in Praia da Luz, on the Algarve, just weeks before Madeleine disappeared.
There was no sign of a break-in and it is thought the intruder may have had a key.
Mrs Fenn, who is in her 70s, found the man scrambling out of the window and tried to grab his ankle. But he escaped.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id331.html
I quoted that the other day, Mrs B. But was told it was irrelevant, as it wasn't in her statement. 8(>((
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I quoted that the other day, Mrs B. But was told it was irrelevant, as it wasn't in her statement. 8(>((
Well, it isn't in her PJ statement as she obviously wasn't ASKED about the details of the attempted break-in.
It is as relevant as any other tabloid story, I guess. I can't see why any reporter would make up a that story.
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Sorry, must have locked this thread by accident. That's what happens when you moderate using an android. 8)-)))
But it could come in handy when moderating androids.
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I quoted that the other day, Mrs B. But was told it was irrelevant, as it wasn't in her statement. 8(>((
The man was climbing through the window. Call me obtuse but if he had had a key I don't think he'd be climbing through the window @)(++(*
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Well, it isn't in her PJ statement as she obviously wasn't ASKED about the details of the attempted break-in.
It is as relevant as any other tabloid story, I guess. I can't see why any reporter would make up a that story.
Oh do behave Mrs B @)(++(*
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The man was climbing through the window. Call me obtuse but if he had had a key I don't think he'd be climbing through the window @)(++(*
You obviously haven't read it. It is a first floor flat (one floor up for our continental friends)
He had entered via the front door using a key obviously, when Mrs Fenn and IIRC her neice arrived back. THey saw him in the flat. The way out throught the door was blocked, so the only escape route was via the window and a high jump down
So yep, you are obtuse. Ya got it wrong.
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You obviously haven't read it. It is a first floor flat (one floor up for our continental friends)
He had entered via the front door using a key obviously, when Mrs Fenn and IIRC her neice arrived back. THey saw him in the flat. The way out throught the door was blocked, so the only escape route was via the window and a high jump down
So yep, you are obtuse. Ya got it wrong.
This from DCI's link :
'Mrs Fenn has also told police about an attempted burglary at her apartment several weeks earlier.
She said a man broke in through the first-floor window but she disturbed him and he jumped out of it.'
I'll take your apology as read shall I sadie ? @)(++(*
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This from DCI's link :
'Mrs Fenn has also told police about an attempted burglary at her apartment several weeks earlier.
She said a man broke in through the first-floor window but she disturbed him and he jumped out of it.'
I'll take your apology as read shall I sadie ? @)(++(*
Did I? Link to that please!
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This from DCI's link :
'Mrs Fenn has also told police about an attempted burglary at her apartment several weeks earlier.
She said a man broke in through the first-floor window but she disturbed him and he jumped out of it.'
I'll take your apology as read shall I sadie ? @)(++(*
More lies Faith.
Big letters so you can read it.
"She went to investigate. The man must have heard her coming and was scrambling out of the window. She just saw the back of his head and arm and she tried to push him out of the window."She was shaking with fear and called the police. There was no sign of a break in and she thought he must have somehow come in through the front door.
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Did I? Link to that please!
Apologies, you quoted Mrs B's link. Still no key needed though ?{)(**
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Apologies, you quoted Mrs B's link. Still no key needed though ?{)(**
In the weeks before Madeleine disappeared Mrs Fenn scared off an intruder who had apparently let himself into her apartment with a key.
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More lies Faith.
Big letters so you can read it.
"She went to investigate. The man must have heard her coming and was scrambling out of the window. She just saw the back of his head and arm and she tried to push him out of the window."She was shaking with fear and called the police. There was no sign of a break in and she thought he must have somehow come in through the front door.
This also from the Express ( same link )
Mrs Fenn has also told police about an attempted burglary at her apartment several weeks earlier.
SHE SAID A MAN BROKE IN THROUGH THE FIRST-FLOOR WINDOW BUT SHE DISTURBED HIM AND HE JUMPED OUT OF IT.
The source said: "She did not think it was significant. She has lived in Luz for some time and at her previous address was the victim of burglaries on a regular basis.'
'
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Ya get so much wrong Faith and tell a good few porkies,
then on the basis of porkies demand apologies.
Time you stopped twisting facts and making myths.
What can speak can't lie sadie. Even you should be able to read the articles in the link posted by Mrs B ?{)(**
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After all these years you still quote the Express?
As did DCI.
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This from DCI's link :
'Mrs Fenn has also told police about an attempted burglary at her apartment several weeks earlier.
She said a man broke in through the first-floor window but she disturbed him and he jumped out of it.'
I'll take your apology as read shall I sadie ? @)(++(*
Well I have wasted a lot of time looking back for DC1's link and waded thru pages of stuff ... and i cannot find it.
DCI doesn't seem to think it exists either.
Where exactly is it Faith?
Surely not another porkie?
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Well I have wasted a lot of time looking back for DC1's link and waded thru pages of stuff ... and i cannot find it.
DCI doesn't seem to think it exists either.
Where exactly is it Faith?
Surely not another porkie?
Obviously your investigative skills are rather limited then sadie.
Mrs B posted a link to the McCannfiles from which DCI posted a quote from an Express article. I also posted a quote from a different Express article but from the same link.
...... moderated ....
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Obviously your investigative skills are rather limited then sadie.
Mrs B posted a link to the McCannfiles from which DCI posted a quote from an Express article. I also posted a quote from a different Express article but from the same link.
....... moderated ......
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1805.175
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Obviously your investigative skills are rather limited then sadie.
Mrs B posted a link to the McCannfiles from which DCI posted a quote from an Express article. I also posted a quote from a different Express article but from the same link.
...... moderated ....
Faith I have found it. I apologise
Mentioned from an Express 8)-))) article, so not totally trustworthy, but I agree it was there.
..... moderated .....
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Faith I have found it. I apologise
Mentioned from an Express 8)-))) article, so not totally trustworthy, but I agree it was there.
....... moderated .....
Great minds think alike sadie because I was thinking just the same thing about you, fortunately for you though I'm far to polite to voice it ?{)(**
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Great minds think alike sadie because I was thinking just the same thing about you, fortunately for you though I'm far to polite to voice it ?{)(**
Pity after I have apologised that you dont know how to accept graciously 8)-)))