Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: stephen25000 on June 28, 2013, 07:57:01 AM
Title: The searching question about...SEARCHING?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 28, 2013, 07:57:01 AM
In her interview Jane Hill doesn't ask Kate whether she ever searched or not. She asked if she hadn't felt she wanted to join in with the searches by the locals, which began in earnest the next morning and continued for many days - it was that period of time she was referring to. Kate's, reply begins with... 'I mean, I did' - which to some people apparently translates as ....'I mean, I didn't'
On the 4th May they spent the day at the police station. When they got back hundreds of reporters had arrived. The chances of Kate or Gerry being able to go out and search themselves once that happened was nil. They would have been mobbed on sight.
Don't you know the Mccanns lack of searching that night was common knowledge in PDL, so don't kid yourself.
As to the interview with Jane Hill, watch again without blinkers.
Title: Re: The searching question about...SEARCHING?
Post by: Benice on June 28, 2013, 08:41:05 AM
Don't you know the Mccanns lack of searching that night was common knowledge in PDL, so don't kid yourself.
As to the interview with Jane Hill, watch again without blinkers.
The evidence that they searched that night is in several witness statements in the PJ files. Maybe you should try reading them instead of listening to your friend - who, unless he knew the McCanns, could not have the slightest idea what they did that night. Local gossip isn't evidence either.
If you can give me a quote where Kate says she never once searched for her daughter - I'd be interested to see it. The interviewer was not talking about searches which happened the night Madeleine was abducted, she was referring to the days following when locals and holidaymakers gave up their time and spent the rest of the week searching. I see you have ignored the fact that the presence 100s of reporters - all waiting for the McCanns, would have made it impossible for them to join those people.
Title: Re: The searching question about...SEARCHING?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 28, 2013, 08:45:39 AM
The evidence that they searched that night is in several witness statements in the PJ files. Maybe you should try reading them instead of listening to your friend - who, unless he knew the McCanns, could not have the slightest idea what they did that night. Local gossip isn't evidence either.
If you can give me a quote where Kate says she never once searched for her daughter - I'd be interested to see it. The interviewer was not talking about searches which happened the night Madeleine was abducted, she was referring to the days following when locals and holidaymakers gave up their time and spent the rest of the week searching. I see you have ignored the fact that the presence 100s of reporters - all waiting for the McCanns, would have made it impossible for them to join those people.
Well please provide unequivocal proof she physically searched for her daughter, other than the stroll on the beach the following morning.
She, as you know lied in her book, saying no one else was searching for Madeleine, other than them.
Title: Re: The searching question about...SEARCHING?
Post by: Benice on June 28, 2013, 09:05:59 AM
Well please provide unequivocal proof she physically searched for her daughter, other than the stroll on the beach the following morning.
She, as you know lied in her book, saying no one else was searching for Madeleine, other than them.
Read the witness statements Stephen.
They didn't meet another soul whilst they were out searching so what would you expect them to think during that time? Especially as they knew the PJ had left and were not planning to come back until after 9.00.
Title: Re: The searching question about...SEARCHING?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 28, 2013, 09:10:04 AM
They didn't meet another soul whilst they were out searching so what would you expect them to think during that time? Especially as they knew the PJ had left and were not planning to come back until after 9.00.
Utter rubbish.
It was all over the news services, at the time and since then, and don't tell me they didn't know about it.
Stop making excuses for the inexcusable.
Title: Re: The searching question about...SEARCHING?
Post by: Benice on June 28, 2013, 09:23:46 AM
It was all over the news services, at the time and since then, and don't tell me they didn't know about it.
Stop making excuses for the inexcusable.
What was all over the news services? I thought it was not until the next morning that anything appeared on TV - after Kate and Gerry had been out searching.
What excuses? I'm going on what is said in the witness statements about Gerry and Kate going out searching. You're going on what your friend said - who was not a witness to anything the McCanns did that night -and relies on local gossip.
Title: Re: The searching question about...SEARCHING?
Post by: Carana on June 28, 2013, 09:25:41 AM
Quite a few of the people who had been out searching only went to bed at around 3-4 am. So they'd have still been asleep when the parents went out at daybreak.
Title: Re: The searching question about...SEARCHING?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 28, 2013, 09:28:07 AM
What was all over the news services? I thought it was not until the next morning that anything appeared on TV - after Kate and Gerry had been out searching.
What excuses? I'm going on what is said in the witness statements about Gerry and Kate going out searching. You're going on what your friend said - who was not a witness to anything the McCanns did that night -and relies on local gossip.
Try not to be obtuse.
THE FACT THAT MANY PEOPLE SEARCHED FOR MADELEINE THAT NIGHT IS VERY WELL KNOWN.
So why she lied about it, that is the question, and not difficult to answer.
Title: Re: The searching question about...SEARCHING?
Post by: faithlilly on June 28, 2013, 09:42:23 AM
Quite a few of the people who had been out searching only went to bed at around 3-4 am. So they'd have still been asleep when the parents went out at daybreak.
If the parents could search at daybreak, why not the rest of the night ?
Title: Re: The searching question about...SEARCHING?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 28, 2013, 09:52:04 AM
THE FACT THAT MANY PEOPLE SEARCHED FOR MADELEINE THAT NIGHT IS VERY WELL KNOWN.
So why she lied about it, that is the question, and not difficult to answer.
Try not to be so rude Stephen whenever you are faced with facts that don't suit your agenda. Kate described the scene as they saw it - i.e. empty of people. Nothing whatseover to do with lylng.
If you think she lied - then tell us why.
Title: Re: The searching question about...SEARCHING?
Post by: faithlilly on June 28, 2013, 10:56:57 AM
Try not to be so rude Stephen whenever you are faced with facts that don't suit your agenda. Kate described the scene as they saw it - i.e. empty of people. Nothing whatseover to do with lylng.
If you think she lied - then tell us why.
Perhaps if she had left the apartment before daybreak she may have 'saw it ' differently ?
Title: Re: The searching question about...SEARCHING?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 28, 2013, 10:57:43 AM
If the parents could search at daybreak, why not the rest of the night ?
Did they search ? They never pretended this (before "Madeleine"). I think they needed some privacy. They hadn't be alone practically since the alert on the disappearance.
Title: Re: The searching question about...SEARCHING?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 28, 2013, 11:12:19 AM
Try not to be so rude Stephen whenever you are faced with facts that don't suit your agenda. Kate described the scene as they saw it - i.e. empty of people. Nothing whatseover to do with lylng.
If you think she lied - then tell us why.
No agenda.
How long was the gap between that night and writing the book ?
More than enough time to check her 'facts'.
She wrote that rubbish in the book, amongst others in an attempt to gain sympathy.
Trouble is, some people do know the truth.
Title: Re: The searching question about...SEARCHING?
Post by: faithlilly on June 28, 2013, 11:15:42 AM
Did they search ? They never pretended this (before "Madeleine"). I think they needed some privacy. They hadn't be alone practically since the alert on the disappearance.
I believe a member of the PJ saw them on their daybreak 'search' Anne but as you say that outing could have been undertaken to gain privacy rather than actually search.
Title: Re: The searching question about...SEARCHING?
Post by: Benice on June 28, 2013, 11:21:14 AM
What was all over the news services? I thought it was not until the next morning that anything appeared on TV - after Kate and Gerry had been out searching.
What excuses? I'm going on what is said in the witness statements about Gerry and Kate going out searching. You're going on what your friend said - who was not a witness to anything the McCanns did that night -and relies on local gossip.
Once we start introducing unnamed friends with knowledge into the equation we really are in danger of entering the realms of fantasyland. I could say my friend saw Kate and Gerry on the beach with a shovel but then again that would be misinterpreted to mean something completely sinister.
Title: Re: The searching question about...SEARCHING?
Post by: DCI on June 28, 2013, 02:13:59 PM
Once we start introducing unnamed friends with knowledge into the equation we really are in danger of entering the realms of fantasyland. I could say my friend saw Kate and Gerry on the beach with a shovel but then again that would be misinterpreted to mean something completely sinister.
@)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*
Heard it all before, John.
Gerry bought a shovel Kate washed the curtains They bought bleach from Baptista supermarket and cleaned the whole apartment. They went jogging on the 4th May.
Title: Re: The searching question about...SEARCHING?
Post by: DCI on June 28, 2013, 05:24:00 PM
Well please provide unequivocal proof she physically searched for her daughter, other than the stroll on the beach the following morning.
She, as you know lied in her book, saying no one else was searching for Madeleine, other than them.
Can you please provide unequivocal proof she didn't physically search for her daughter?
Were you there?
Or was it, from your 'eye-witness friend' who told you, falsely, that the McCanns didn't go looking for Madeleine in PDL was it the same 'eye-witness friend' as the one who assured you that 5a had been scrubbed with bleach?
Title: Re: The searching question about...SEARCHING?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 28, 2013, 06:43:23 PM
Can you please provide unequivocal proof she didn't physically search for her daughter?
Were you there?
Or was it, from your 'eye-witness friend' who told you, falsely, that the McCanns didn't go looking for Madeleine in PDL was it the same 'eye-witness friend' as the one who assured you that 5a had been scrubbed with bleach?
As regards the non-searching, take it from the horses mouth in the Jane Hill interview. 8((()*/
Title: Re: The searching question about...SEARCHING?
Post by: Lace on June 28, 2013, 07:00:26 PM
As regards the non-searching, take it from the horses mouth in the Jane Hill interview. 8((()*/
You need to watch and listen again, Stephen. She only talks about after the first 48 hrs. Where does she say on the night of 3rd May? That was your opening post question, was it not?
Who's video have you watched of this interview? BBC or a Youtube copy?
Title: Re: The searching question about...SEARCHING?
Post by: Redblossom on June 28, 2013, 07:11:12 PM
In their first documentary they made, ITVs Madeleine One Year On made in early 2008 it was said by Gerry Mccann that he insisted Kate Mccann stay on the apartment all night. So Anne, you are right, not until the book was published in 2011 did we ever hear of Kate Mccann going out at any time that night, and no witnesses or friends said anything like that at the time.
The whole village was out looking till around 4.30 that night, or next morning rather, so that will have given Kate Mccann assurance that something was being done, by so many, whether she went out personally to look or not.
In her book she says she was horrified when she went out at dawn and no one was looking....who exactly did she expect to be out in droves, the searchers were sleeping after a very long night, she could make criticism about the police but imo, not all the people who had been up all night all over PDL looking for her child
See 8.30
And what was all the talk from her about it being so cold and dark and she couldnt wait till first light to go out and look? What was wrong with extra clothing and a torch? Weather and light conditions being an excuse is bizarre.
edited
Title: Re: The searching question about...SEARCHING?
Post by: Lace on June 28, 2013, 07:17:04 PM
In their first documentary they made, ITVs Madeleine One Year On made in early 2008 it was said by Gerry Mccann that he insisted Kate Mccann stay on the apartment all night. So Anne, you are right, not until the book was published in 2011 did we ever hear of Kate Mccann going out at any time that night, and no witnesses or friends said anything like that at the time.
The whole village was out looking till around 4.30 that night, or next morning rather, so that will have given Kate Mccann assurance that something was being done, by so many, whether she went out personally to look or not.
In her book she says she was horrified when she went out at dawn and no one was looking....who exactly did ahe expect to be out in droves, the searchers were sleeping after a very long night, she could make criticism about the police but imo, not all the people who had been up all night all over PDL looking for her child
8.30
Why did the police take so long to arrive back the next day? You would have thought knowing Madeleine hadn't been found they would have been back as early as possible with those dogs.
Title: Re: The searching question about...SEARCHING?
Post by: Redblossom on June 28, 2013, 07:21:22 PM
Why did the police take so long to arrive back the next day? You would have thought knowing Madeleine hadn't been found they would have been back as early as possible with those dogs.
I have no idea why
Title: Re: The searching question about...SEARCHING?
Post by: DCI on June 28, 2013, 07:45:47 PM
Do you have the original video, Red?. Not one of Hidho's
Title: Re: The searching question about...SEARCHING?
Post by: Redblossom on June 28, 2013, 07:49:24 PM
Do you have the original video, Red?. Not one of Hidho's
That IS the original video, which bits do you think she doctored LOL. Or which words she put into the detectives or witnesses mouths? And the transcript from the original is available on mccannfiles.com which followed the youtube video at the time but which was subsequently removed from youtube by either channel four or for some other complaint, ie there is no original from the channel who made it
pls dont say the transcript was doctored too four or five years earlier than hideho managing to get a copy and upload it
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id49.html
hideho has uploaded full documentaries such as the Panorama one in 2007 and others, all kosha, nothing to do withher own video compilations
Title: Re: The searching question about...SEARCHING?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 28, 2013, 07:56:47 PM
You need to watch and listen again, Stephen. She only talks about after the first 48 hrs. Where does she say on the night of 3rd May? That was your opening post question, was it not?
Who's video have you watched of this interview? BBC or a Youtube copy?
It is really about time you grew up.
I've seen both versions.
The woman admitted she didn't physically search for her daughter.
One thing we do know,other than not searching during the night, was the pair of them prayed like mad mullahs in front of the local police when they arrived. Now why did they do that ?
Title: Re: The searching question about...SEARCHING?
Post by: Redblossom on June 28, 2013, 08:07:50 PM
You need to watch and listen again, Stephen. She only talks about after the first 48 hrs. Where does she say on the night of 3rd May? That was your opening post question, was it not?
Who's video have you watched of this interview? BBC or a Youtube copy?
May 3 was within the first 48 hours, struggling to understand what you mean by that
And the youtube clip is taken from the original BBC video, no difference whatsoever at all
Youtube upload of BBC interview http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agOS_qZB17A&feature=youtube_gdata_player
BBC original http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7371013.stm
no difference
Title: Re: The searching question about...SEARCHING?
Post by: Carana on June 28, 2013, 08:09:17 PM
It seems just like their heroes, some of the mccannites like to twist the truth for their own purposes
Well I must say there is a small seachange now with posters suggesting original full videos from british media have been tampered with lol with no evidence whatsoever, justbecause they may not like whats in them
Title: Re: The searching question about...SEARCHING?
Post by: Lace on June 28, 2013, 08:35:57 PM
Gerry McCann was out searching, Kate McCann says she went out searching. They both went out searching early the following morning.
They had to stay with the police until the early hours of the morning.
Listening to that tape I still believe Kate McCann was saying they didn't search through the week.
Who wants the parents in a search party where the child has not been found the first day? The police like searches to be organised. I doubt very much if they would have wanted the parents in their search party.
In any case they were not in any state to search through the week.
Anyone who cannot understand this must be so short of empathy.
Title: Re: The searching question about...SEARCHING?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 28, 2013, 08:51:31 PM
Gerry McCann was out searching, Kate McCann says she went out searching. They both went out searching early the following morning.
They had to stay with the police until the early hours of the morning.
Listening to that tape I still believe Kate McCann was saying they didn't search through the week.
Who wants the parents in a search party where the child has not been found the first day? The police like searches to be organised. I doubt very much if they would have wanted the parents in their search party.
In any case they were not in any state to search through the week.
Anyone who cannot understand this must be so short of empathy.
The natural human reaction for a missing child would be to search for them.
It would not be to stay in the apartment,claiming it was too dark.
Nor would it be resume jogging and playing tennis within a few days.
Finding a missing child in those circumstances would be the number one priority.
Title: Re: The searching question about...SEARCHING?
Post by: Redblossom on June 28, 2013, 09:05:56 PM
The natural human reaction for a missing child would be to search for them.
It would not be to stay in the apartment,claiming it was too dark.
Nor would it be resume jogging and playing tennis within a few days.
Finding a missing child in those circumstances would be the number one priority.
I said earlier that KM could be excused for not going out to search when the whole bloody village was, so her going out may not have made any difference but it doesnt tally with her excuse for not going out ie it was cold and dark
What is also not normal is her being SURE her daughter was abducted but leaving her other two kids alone with an open door and window and not knowing if said abductors were still around to run to the tapas bar, totally abnormal, she could have shouted for help, anyone would have heard, tanner and mrs fenn in their apartments and others around
Title: Re: The searching question about...SEARCHING?
Post by: Redblossom on June 28, 2013, 09:19:41 PM
That IS the original video, which bits do you think she doctored LOL. Or which words she put into the detectives or witnesses mouths? And the transcript from the original is available on mccannfiles.com which followed the youtube video at the time but which was subsequently removed from youtube by either channel four or for some other complaint, ie there is no original from the channel who made it
pls dont say the transcript was doctored too four or five years earlier than hideho managing to get a copy and upload it
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id49.html
hideho has uploaded full documentaries such as the Panorama one in 2007 and others, all kosha, nothing to do withher own video compilations
Missing from Dispatches on Mccann files.
JS Search expert Gary Ligg visited key locations around Praia da Luz. He's still concerned about the quality of the initial police search strategy.
GL: yeah, volunteers, great. They are here, they wanted to do something erm and there are roles you can play with them, but I won't be satisfied until my search teams have actually been in there.
Thats clear visually, for as far as we can see.
Title: Re: The searching question about...SEARCHING?
Post by: Redblossom on June 28, 2013, 09:31:00 PM
But there is a difference, Red. It is not the full version.
you originally posted on this thread alledging that the dispatches programme was not the original with no evidence that it wasnt, and suggesting hideho had doctored it, then you switched to saying the clip from jane hills interview was not from the original, it was, and was shown to be, so not sure what your problem really is tbh, and i suppose youdont even know yourself lol
Title: Re: The searching question about...SEARCHING?
Post by: Redblossom on June 28, 2013, 09:36:11 PM
she was SURE her child was abducted but left her other two kids on their own inan unlocked apt and open window to go running to tapas bar when other options were available and her NOT KNOWING the abductors were still around, its not rocket science, its called the protective instinct for her twins was NO where to be seen in the circumstances
Title: Re: The searching question about...SEARCHING?
Post by: DCI on June 28, 2013, 09:39:43 PM
you originally posted on this thread alledging that the dispatches programme was not the original with no evidence that it wasnt, and suggesting hideho had doctored it, then you switched to saying the clip from jane hills interview was not from the original, it was, and was shown to be, so not sure what your problem really is tbh, and i suppose youdont even know yourself lol
Gerry McCann was out searching, Kate McCann says she went out searching. They both went out searching early the following morning.
They had to stay with the police until the early hours of the morning.
Listening to that tape I still believe Kate McCann was saying they didn't search through the week.
Who wants the parents in a search party where the child has not been found the first day? The police like searches to be organised. I doubt very much if they would have wanted the parents in their search party.
In any case they were not in any state to search through the week.
Anyone who cannot understand this must be so short of empathy.
I agree Lace. Gerry did some searching prior to the arrival of the police while Kate stayed with the twins.
They both went out in the dawn to search and it must have been a bit disconcerting realising that everyone else had gone home to their beds.
My own view however is that no amount of searching was ever going to find Madeleine as she was most probably miles away before the police even arrived on site.
Title: Re: The searching question about...SEARCHING?
Post by: icabodcrane on June 29, 2013, 02:05:54 AM
I agree Lace. Gerry did some searching prior to the arrival of the police while Kate stayed with the twins.
They both went out in the dawn to search and it must have been a bit disconcerting realising that everyone else had gone home to their beds.
My own view however is that no amount of searching was ever going to find Madeleine as she was most probably miles away before the police even arrived on site.
If the McCanns and Jane Tanner are correct, and Madeleine was taken at 9.15pm then she was miles away before her parents even noticed she was missing
Title: Re: The searching question about...SEARCHING?
Post by: John on June 29, 2013, 02:46:15 AM
Why hide around the corner if you can cross borders ?
Exactly. The abductor basically had about an hour and a half head start before police were even aware and 3/4 of an hour before the Mccanns were aware. I doubt they were wandering the streets still at 10 pm. Well, thats if what the Mccanns and Jane Tanner believe is true.
Title: Re: The searching question about...SEARCHING?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 29, 2013, 02:35:08 PM
Not if it was a pre-planned crime with more than one person involved, the person who abducted Madeleine may not be the person who was in charge of transporting her away from the area.
Title: Re: The searching question about...SEARCHING?
Post by: Redblossom on June 29, 2013, 02:48:52 PM
Not if it was a pre-planned crime with more than one person involved, the person who abducted Madeleine may not be the person who was in charge of transporting her away from the area.
LOL, so the mastermind used a dumb abductor? OK
Title: Re: The searching question about...SEARCHING?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 29, 2013, 03:00:55 PM
Criminals aren't masterminds, or they wouldn't be criminals.
Title: Re: The searching question about...SEARCHING?
Post by: Redblossom on June 29, 2013, 03:06:02 PM
Criminals aren't masterminds, or they wouldn't be criminals.
OK, so both were dumb but have since managed to evade capture after the worlds biggest and longest lasting ever media campaign to find a missing child, amount of police hours, several law establishment agencies' and private investigators' and other professionals' involvement,millions of pounds, etc etc
Title: Re: The searching question about...SEARCHING?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 29, 2013, 03:10:03 PM
Yes, some crimes don't get solved, EVER, that doesn't mean that the people perpetrating them are super intelligent. Whoever abducted Madeleine had a massive advantage - Amaral was assigned as co-ordinator. He wasn't interested in finding any abductor, he only wanted to declare the parents guilty.
Title: Re: The searching question about...SEARCHING?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 29, 2013, 03:10:24 PM
Criminals aren't masterminds, or they wouldn't be criminals.
In fairy world, perhaps, but not on our planet, Mrs. B. And you'll agree the masterminds of eleven nine were criminals or will you argue terrorists aren't criminals ?
Title: Re: The searching question about...SEARCHING?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 29, 2013, 03:14:24 PM
He wasn't interested in finding any abductor, he only wanted to declare the parents guilty.
Paranoid allergy to Mr Amaral is a privilege of Mrs McCann. We can eventually understand, if not approve, her attitude. From you, Mrs B, it's kind of libel. What evidence do you have ?
Title: Re: The searching question about...SEARCHING?
Post by: Redblossom on June 29, 2013, 03:17:15 PM
Yes, some crimes don't get solved, EVER, that doesn't mean that the people perpetrating them are super intelligent. Whoever abducted Madeleine had a massive advantage - Amaral was assigned as co-ordinator. He wasn't interested in finding any abductor, he only wanted to declare the parents guilty.
Was wondering how long it might take you to bring Amaral in as the reason they werent caught. LOL. Never mind. The fact that they had an hour and a halfs head start before police were even alerted must mean nothing at all.OK. 8((()*/
Title: Re: The searching question about...SEARCHING?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 29, 2013, 03:19:28 PM
In fairy world, perhaps, but not on our planet, Mrs. B. And you'll agree the masterminds of eleven nine were criminals or will you argue terrorists aren't criminals ?
No, that's on this planet, I don't think you live on the same one, and no, the terrorists of 9/11 weren't masterminds, they were fanatics who were willing to kill themselves in order to attack their targets. You don't need intelligence to blow yourself up & take others with you.
Title: Re: The searching question about...SEARCHING?
Post by: Redblossom on June 29, 2013, 03:53:53 PM
No, that's on this planet, I don't think you live on the same one, and no, the terrorists of 9/11 weren't masterminds, they were fanatics who were willing to kill themselves in order to attack their targets. You don't need intelligence to blow yourself up & take others with you.
OK so do you believe Smithman was Tannerman, as the Mccanns think it maybe, and have promoted the fact, and if so, what was he doing?between 9.15 and 10 pm? And why?
Eta
Actually you dont have to answer that as we have seriously gone off topic
Title: Re: The searching question about...SEARCHING?
Post by: Redblossom on June 29, 2013, 04:04:04 PM
JS Search expert Gary Ligg visited key locations around Praia da Luz. He's still concerned about the quality of the initial police search strategy.
GL: yeah, volunteers, great. They are here, they wanted to do something erm and there are roles you can play with them, but I won't be satisfied until my search teams have actually been in there.
Thats clear visually, for as far as we can see.
These two sentences seem to be missing from the transcript typed by someone of the programme, it happens, but they were in the documentary as I watched the whole thing, how does that prove the documentary uploaded in full and not added to or taken away from was not 100% kosha? It doesn't. So lets put that one to bed, that its not an original. It is.
Title: Re: The searching question about...SEARCHING?
Post by: Benice on June 29, 2013, 04:04:11 PM
OK so do you believe Smithman was Tannerman, as the Mccanns think it maybe, and have promoted the fact, and if so, what was he doing?between 9.15 and 10 pm? And why?
Eta
Actually you dont have to answer that as we have seriously gone off topic
He could have been waiting to hear from a boat?
Title: Re: The searching question about...SEARCHING?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 29, 2013, 04:06:09 PM
No, that's on this planet, I don't think you live on the same one, and no, the terrorists of 9/11 weren't masterminds, they were fanatics who were willing to kill themselves in order to attack their targets. You don't need intelligence to blow yourself up & take others with you.
Fanatics are many in Muslim communities, ask Israelis, they don't kill themselves in order to attack their targets, they destroy their targets and themselves in order to benefit the delights of paradise. Criminal masterminds are different. I bet that asked it one plane could fly across one WTC tower, you would have said "perhaps" but asked if two planes could fly across the twin towers, you would have said "unlikely".
Title: Re: The searching question about...SEARCHING?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 29, 2013, 04:11:37 PM
No, actually I wouldn't have said that. Flying planes into targets isn't actually a new idea. The Japanese were pretty good at it during WW2.
Title: Re: The searching question about...SEARCHING?
Post by: Redblossom on June 29, 2013, 04:15:23 PM
LOL, in that case he would have gone straight to the beach/marina instead of walking east at 9.15 and then 45 minutes later, west, along the same route, he took before, thereby risking being seen in the exact same area the abduction took place, honestly
Title: Re: The searching question about...SEARCHING?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 29, 2013, 04:17:03 PM
No, actually I wouldn't have said that. Flying planes into targets isn't actually a new idea. The Japanese were pretty good at it during WW2.
Are kamikazes in war time fanatics ? The eleven nine masterminds weren't in the planes. They likely didn't believe in the story of the thousand virgins..
Title: Re: The searching question about...SEARCHING?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 29, 2013, 04:25:19 PM
If this was a pre-planned abduction, the person who did the abduction may not at all have been the person who had ordered the crime. His role could have finished there & the only thing he needed to do was to hand over the victim to the people who were in charge of removing her from the area.
The abductor would not have known at exactly which TIME the opportunity to enter the apartment would arise, the hand-over could have been already planned at a specific time & whoever it was, had to wait for the people to arrive at the pre-determined meeting place.
Title: Re: The searching question about...SEARCHING?
Post by: Benice on June 29, 2013, 04:25:45 PM
LOL, in that case he would have gone straight to the beach/marina instead of walking east at 9.15 and then 45 minutes later, west, along the same route, he took before, thereby risking being seen in the exact same area the abduction took place, honestly
Not necessarily Red, it was Amaral's theory that he was heading for the beach.
Not much cover on an open beach. If he had to wait a while for some reason,- surely it would be better done behind closed doors.
Quote from Amaral:
It (the Algarvian coast) is the most accessible coast for entering the continent of Europe. It attracts many yachtsmen, who appreciate the beauty of its beaches and its inlets, but it also attracts all sorts of traffickers. end quote
Title: Re: The searching question about...SEARCHING?
Post by: Redblossom on June 29, 2013, 04:28:36 PM
Not necessarily Red, it was Amaral's theory that he was heading for the beach.
Not much cover on an open beach. If he had to wait a while for some reason,- surely it would be better done behind closed doors.
Quote from Amaral:
It (the Algarvian coast) is the most accessible coast for entering the continent of Europe. It attracts many yachtsmen, who appreciate the beauty of its beaches and its inlets, but it also attracts all sorts of traffickers. end quote
Nothing to do with Amarals theory here. My question was why the alledged abductor was doing walkabouts from 9.15 to 10pm
Title: Re: The searching question about...SEARCHING?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 29, 2013, 04:28:56 PM
Are kamikazes in war time fanatics ? The eleven nine masterminds weren't in the planes. They likely didn't believe in the story of the thousand virgins..
I can guarantee you that the Japanese Generals who came up with the brilliant idea weren't flying those planes either. But yes, it takes an element of fanatical belief to go happily to your death for a cause, even in war.
Title: Re: The searching question about...SEARCHING?
Post by: Benice on June 29, 2013, 04:40:11 PM
Nothing to do with Amarals theory here. My question was why the alledged abductor was doing walkabouts from 9.15 to 10pm
We don't know that he was walking around. When the Smiths saw him he could have just come out of hiding a couple of minutes previously and be heading to the shore - so that Madeleine could be taken away by boat. I don't know why you aren't willing to even consider that?
Title: Re: The searching question about...SEARCHING?
Post by: Redblossom on June 29, 2013, 04:41:41 PM
We don't know that he was walking around. When the Smiths saw him he could have just come out of hiding a couple of minutes previously and be heading to the shore - so that Madeleine could be taken away by boat. I don't know why you aren't willing to even consider that?
Well, you will have to consider why he was going east in the first place.
Title: Re: The searching question about...SEARCHING?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 29, 2013, 04:51:36 PM
We don't know that he was walking around. When the Smiths saw him he could have just come out of hiding a couple of minutes previously and be heading to the shore - so that Madeleine could be taken away by boat. I don't know why you aren't willing to even consider that?
Or a car, it could simply be that the meeting place & time was pre-arranged.
Title: Re: The searching question about...SEARCHING?
Post by: John on June 29, 2013, 04:53:14 PM
Suggesting the PJ officers were given sleeping pills ?
No Anne...suggesting the PJ weren't particularly interested in a report of another missing child after 11pm at night as evidenced by Señor Amarals total lack of urgency in visiting the scene.
Title: Re: The searching question about...SEARCHING?
Post by: John on June 29, 2013, 04:57:02 PM
Or a car, it could simply be that the meeting place & time was pre-arranged.
We know how difficult it is to negotiate parts of Praia da Luz by car given the existence of a particularly restrictive one-way system at the time. Could it be that the abductor was forced to walk a distance because of this not expecting to encounter a group as large as the Smiths at that time of night?
Title: Re: The searching question about...SEARCHING?
Post by: Redblossom on June 29, 2013, 04:59:33 PM
No Anne...suggesting the PJ weren't particularly interested in a report of another missing child after 11pm at night as evidenced by Señor Amarals total lack of urgency in visiting the scene.
Do the heads of investigations always visit scenes themselves?
The PJ btw were not informed until midnight, about an hour after the local GNR police came to the scene and looking for what they believed was a wandering child
It is untrue he didnt have a sense of urgency, here is an extract from his book
ANNOUNCEMENT OF A DISAPPEARANCE: THE FIRST SEVENTY-TWO HOURS
On this evening, May 3rd 2007, I decide to dine at the Carvi Brasserie, in the centre of Portimão, before going home. I have been living for a year in this town, where I lead the Department of Criminal Investigation of the police judiciaire. In 1982, when I was 23 and I had just taken up this career, I had already gone there. There, I had made the acquaintance of someone who was to become my friend, Manuel João. Former local official and sporty, a charismatic person. He always lent a hand to members of the police judiciaire who went to the town for the purposes of an investigation. As an elected local official, he originated the creation of a police judiciaire department in Portimão. Thus, that evening, while savouring fruits de mer, we discuss the problems of Portuguese society.
It is midnight when I receive the news about the disappearance of a little four-year-old English girl. The police officer on call was informed about it by the National Guard of The Republic (GNR) At the time of her disappearance, the little girl was supposed to have been sleeping in an apartment while her parents were dining a hundred metres away. An inspector is sent to the scene immediately to establish the initial facts. A forensic expert assigned to security of the premises will join him. All precautions are taken to preserve possible clues and elements of evidence. I demand to be informed very regularly and, before going home, I call on the police on duty to check that all urgent measures are underway. The head of the Guard has already alerted the police authorities at Faro airport and the control post set up on the Guadiana* bridge.
(*The river on the frontier between Portugal and Spain.)
THE REPORTS LEAVE A LOT TO BE DESIRED
The examination of the premises by the investigator and the representative of the forensic police just after the announcement of the disappearance turns out to be quite unproductive. A concise report, where their observations are written up, is accompanied by numerous photographs taken inside and outside apartment 5A - which don't give an account of, according to us, everything they could have observed. This error is explained by the absence of procedures in case of a child's disappearance, notably concerning the actions to be taken when examining the scene.
Lots of people were already in place; however, nobody appeared in the photos. We don't know, for example, how they were dressed. Such observations can turn out to be important later on. The report mentions that the twins were asleep in their bed, but there is no proof to confirm it; on the contrary, in the photographs, you can see empty cots, where only the mattresses remain - the sheets and blankets having been removed. Why have their beds been stripped? If the sheets had not been removed, traces of their presence could have been found there.
That evening, on arriving home, I see Inès, my younger daughter, who is sleeping close to my wife, Sofia. In silence, in the dim light of the bedroom, I sit on the edge of the bed. Outside, far from her mother's warmth, a child of the same age is lost. Sofia wakes up and asks me what is happening. I tell her about Madeleine's disappearance and instinctively, she holds our daughter tightly in her arms and makes room for me.
I make lots of phone calls and send a text message to the director of the Faro Department of Criminal Investigation (DIC): child, English, aged 4, disappeared from a Praia da Luz hotel. It's sufficient. Reading the message, he will understand the gravity of the situation. Three years before, we had dealt with a similar case, a few kilometres from Praia da Luz. We had not been informed at the time of that disappearance, and we are convinced that if the investigation could have been started immediately we would have been able to discover some physical evidence. The police response is fundamental. The first 72 hours are essential.
Title: Re: The searching question about...SEARCHING?
Post by: Redblossom on June 29, 2013, 05:27:31 PM
We know how difficult it is to negotiate parts of Praia da Luz by car given the existence of a particularly restrictive one-way system at the time. Could it be that the abductor was forced to walk a distance because of this not expecting to encounter a group as large as the Smiths at that time of night?
Oh come on John, the abductor didnt use a car because of road difficulties? but decided to stroll around to be seen? OK, lol so the abductor was scared of being nicked for breaking driving laws, as if, in a quiet sleepy village with no police, but wasnt scared of being spotted! Back later @)(++(*
Title: Re: The searching question about...SEARCHING?
Post by: John on June 29, 2013, 05:29:06 PM
You have taken 2 and 2 and come up with 3.5 Redblossom. The PJ would have been informed more or less immediately when it involved a crime of this nature. Amaral claims he wasn't told until midnight, not surprising since they had to find him first.
Title: Re: The searching question about...SEARCHING?
Post by: DCI on June 29, 2013, 05:29:50 PM
Do the heads of investigations always visit scenes themselves?
The PJ btw were not informed until midnight, about an hour after the local GNR police came to the scene and looking for what they believed was a wandering child
Thats the GNR's fault, not the McCann's. More incompetence!
Title: Re: The searching question about...SEARCHING?
Post by: John on June 29, 2013, 05:32:12 PM
Oh come on John, the abductor didnt use a car because of road difficulties? but decided to stroll around to be seen? OK, lol so the abductor was scared of being nicked for breaking driving laws, as if, in a quiet sleepy village with no police, but wasnt scared of being spotted! Back later @)(++(*
Again you have missed the point. I didn't say he didn't use a car, I said he was forced to walk a distance ie.. he was forced to end his journey on foot or make a very long detour.
Title: Re: The searching question about...SEARCHING?
Post by: faithlilly on June 29, 2013, 05:51:59 PM
Again you have missed the point. I didn't say he didn't use a car, I said he was forced to walk a distance ie.. he was forced to end his journey on foot or make a very long detour.
There was a car park directly behind 5a. Why would an abductor risk being caught by hauling Madeleine half way across town ? We are lead to believe he had already been seen by Tanner, why would he risk it again ?
Title: Re: The searching question about...SEARCHING?
Post by: Benice on June 29, 2013, 06:11:47 PM
There was a car park directly behind 5a. Why would an abductor risk being caught by hauling Madeleine half way across town ? We are lead to believe he had already been seen by Tanner, why would he risk it again ?
But he didn't know in advance he was going to be seen by JT. Maybe because she arrived on the scene he panicked and diverted from the original plan. For all he knew she might have been going to check on Madeleine and the twins. Who knows?
Title: Re: The searching question about...SEARCHING?
Post by: John on June 29, 2013, 08:08:39 PM
I have opposing views as to whether Smith man and Tanner man were the same. On the one hand it was strange that the individual seen by the Smiths never came forward if it was an innocent sighting but on the other hand if this man was seen by Tanner at 9.15pm ish and then just after 10pm by the Smiths, where was he for 45+ minutes and what was he waiting for? And mores to the point, had it been Madeleine she should have woken up as it was such a cold night.
Back on topic. All this searching around the town and the beach seemed a bit OTT for a nearly 4 year old. What made anyone think she would have even left the resort grounds on such a dark cold night?
Title: Re: The searching question about...SEARCHING?
Post by: sadie on June 30, 2013, 01:37:44 AM
I have opposing views as to whether Smith man and Tanner man were the same. On the one hand it was strange that the individual seen by the Smiths never came forward if it was an innocent sighting but on the other hand if this man was seen by Tanner at 9.15pm ish and then just after 10pm by the Smiths, where was he for 45+ minutes and what was he waiting for? And mores to the point, had it been Madeleine she should have woken up as it was such a cold night.
Back on topic. All this searching around the town and the beach seemed a bit OTT for a nearly 4 year old. What made anyone think she would have even left the resort grounds on such a dark cold night?
I agree
Very strange that neither man came forward
Also Very strange that neither man was walking from a creche to anywhere. There was NO crech in the direction either man was walking from.
Both men were coming from a place that was little inhabited. unless,
1) in the case of bundleman, unless he had walked 240 yards from the Estrella apartments [or a couple of isolated houses] he was coming from the OC apartments themselves. No other place he could have come from
2) in the case of the Smiths man, Unless he had come over 200 yards (to Aoifes sighting), again from the Estrella apartments ... the only place that he could have come from was about 50 metres up the road (Rua da Escola) from the front person in the Smiths group, Peter Smith ...and that was the staff quarters No other place he could have come from. Seems a scream was heard coming from there. 8(8-))
I think he called in at the staff quarters.
I think that when the pick up failed (see sadies Theory), in desperation, he found his way to the Staff quarters to where the lifter lived. It is quite possible that there he phoned for advice It is unlikely, but not impossible that at that stage, a change over occurred in the carriers
Only my thoughts, but the fact that there was nowhere really for the man to have come from, in either case, is a strong indicator that bundleman came from OC.
and that The Smiths man came from the staff Quarters.
Title: Re: The searching question about...SEARCHING?
Post by: faithlilly on June 30, 2013, 01:59:58 PM
Also Very strange that neither man was walking from a creche to anywhere. There was NO crech in the direction either man was walking from.
Both men were coming from a place that was little inhabited. unless,
1) in the case of bundleman, unless he had walked 240 yards from the Estrella apartments [or a couple of isolated houses] he was coming from the OC apartments themselves. No other place he could have come from
2) in the case of the Smiths man, Unless he had come over 200 yards (to Aoifes sighting), again from the Estrella apartments ... the only place that he could have come from was about 50 metres up the road (Rua da Escola) from the front person in the Smiths group, Peter Smith ...and that was the staff quarters No other place he could have come from. Seems a scream was heard coming from there. 8(8-))
I think he called in at the staff quarters.
I think that when the pick up failed (see sadies Theory), in desperation, he found his way to the Staff quarters to where the lifter lived. It is quite possible that there he phoned for advice It is unlikely, but not impossible that at that stage, a change over occurred in the carriers
Only my thoughts, but the fact that there was nowhere really for the man to have come from, in either case, is a strong indicator that bundleman came from OC.
and that The Smiths man came from the staff Quarters.
You have mentioned a scream a couple of times one sadie but so far I have not seen any evidence there even was a scream. Where did you get this information from ?
Title: Re: The searching question about...SEARCHING?
Post by: sadie on July 01, 2013, 02:34:41 AM
It was on the 3A's forum, now gone.
Others will have seen it ... but whether any [ censored word] will admit it ... is another matter. Maybe a pro on here saw it? If they did, it would be good if they would confirm.
I was never on 3A's but liked some of the research done. Most especially about the boats in Lagos harbour. Was very interested in the boat that left the gated harbour just before gate lock up time. It then parked up in the long entrance channel to the harbour. The boat had links to someone that the PJ showed interest in, IIRC.
There was also good local knowledge with, ?was it harmony? happy to get on her bike and go look at what ever. That was good.
Title: Re: The searching question about...SEARCHING?
Post by: icabodcrane on July 01, 2013, 07:41:34 AM
Others will have seen it ... but whether any [ censored word] will admit it ... is another matter. Maybe a pro on here saw it? If they did, it would be good if they would confirm.
I was never on 3A's but liked some of the research done. Most especially about the boats in Lagos harbour. Was very interested in the boat that left the gated harbour just before gate lock up time. It then parked up in the long entrance channel to the harbour. The boat had links to someone that the PJ showed interest in, IIRC.
There was also good local knowledge with, ?was it harmony? happy to get on her bike and go look at what ever. That was good.
You can't ask for others to confirm what you claim ... you must confirm it yourself
If you can't , then stop making the claims
Title: Re: The searching question about...SEARCHING?
Post by: AnneGuedes on July 01, 2013, 10:11:19 AM
I have opposing views as to whether Smith man and Tanner man were the same. On the one hand it was strange that the individual seen by the Smiths never came forward if it was an innocent sighting but on the other hand if this man was seen by Tanner at 9.15pm ish and then just after 10pm by the Smiths, where was he for 45+ minutes and what was he waiting for? And mores to the point, had it been Madeleine she should have woken up as it was such a cold night.
Back on topic. All this searching around the town and the beach seemed a bit OTT for a nearly 4 year old. What made anyone think she would have even left the resort grounds on such a dark cold night?
A child with a pneumonia is more manipulable. Any care will gain her confidence. They searched up to the limit distance they thought she was capable to walk on her own. Then they were looking for a captive, I suppose.
Title: Re: The searching question about...SEARCHING?
Post by: Redblossom on July 01, 2013, 08:08:56 PM
You can't ask for others to confirm what you claim ... you must confirm it yourself
If you can't , then stop making the claims
Only evidence of any scream,from the files, is in the surrounding immediate area, anything else is hearsay.
I ran out of the Tapas and noticed that some of the childcare works of the Mark Warner had begun to arrive. At the point I left the Tapas I heard a scream from a woman I did not know. I do not know who screamed, but I had never heard a similar cry. I cannot even describe it but thought it had come from the child's mother. I went to the reception with one of the child care workers whose name I do not remember
Title: Re: The searching question about...SEARCHING?
Post by: sadie on July 02, 2013, 02:22:36 AM
I have mentioned the scream at least twice ... and in especially the earlier post I made it immediately clear that it was hearsay from the 3A's forum. This time I used the word "seems". I did not claim it as definitely being correct, but it was mentioned on the 3A's and as such should be admissable as hearsay. I have never claimed it as cast iron fact. As long as people are aware that it has been said, then they can use it or dismiss it as they wish. Any problems with that?
Surely you wouldn't want such a potentially important point missed out altogether? It could be the thing that helped track bundleman ... or perhaps you dont want that to happen?
I think someone from OC staff was connected with the abduction